posted
". . . . .ancient place names do not always, if even often, make it through the ages to our modern era, they frequently become problematic to our study of ancient times. Even within Egypt, we often have problems identifying from ancient texts various cities and sites. More difficult even then this is perhaps the places outside of Egypt to which the Egyptians refer to in their texts."
". . . . .ancient place names do not always, if even often, make it through the ages to our modern era, they frequently become problematic to our study of ancient times. Even within Egypt, we often have problems identifying from ancient texts various cities and sites. More difficult even then this is perhaps the places outside of Egypt to which the Egyptians refer to in their texts."
...such as the problem we deal with here ad infinitum, with regards to the region designated as "Nubia".
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posted
In my opinion a location that far south for Yam makes the invasion of Temehh, land of the TMHHW/Tjemehu/Tamahou, an unlikely and quite major expedition, surely not one the ruler of Yam could be disuaded from undertaking due to a merchants qualms unless considerable fiscal income was at stake.
This Temehh is likely to comprise the regions between and surrounding the oases of Kurkur (west of the 1st cataract), Dunqul (southwest of the 1st cataract) and Salima (west of the Dal cataract). This Temehh was the source of the timhhy stones. In the misnamed "Harris" papyrus they're called the "timhhy stones of Wawat."
Harkhuf tells us he was on the Wehat Road when he hurried up to catch the ruler of Yam. Wehat (southern oasis/garden) Road starts at Kharga (Wehat-rst) Oasis west of Thebes running SSW to Salima Oasis. There was another route starting at Qubbet el Hawa (~Elephantine) going through Kurkur and Dunqul with its terminal junction at Salima. From Salima the Wehat Road goes on to Kerma.
From the above I surmise that Yam was immediately south of Wawat and extended at least to Kerma and possibly further on to Kawa. I'm sorry not to find a map online showing all the above place names but the maps in Baines and Malek's Ancient Egypt has them all as well as the trade routes.
The area suggested by those "other scholars" is Bayuda or Butana not Yam.
quote:Other scholars see Elephantine as the starting and end point for each caravan, with the trade goods then being shipped between this southern city and the more northerly capital. They believe that Yam lay further south, perhaps on or near the Shendi Reach of the Nile (above the fifth cataract, near where it divides into the White and Blue Nile).
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This account was recorded on the tomb facade of Harkhuf, the governor of Elephantine, who recorded his adventures during the 6th Dynasty. He traveled, not once, but four times to yam, leading an expedition apparently into Nubia south of Egypt . These visits were made for trade, using donkey caravans in which Egyptian goods were exported and traded for those of Yam. On one journey, we are told that some 300 asses brought back "incense, ebony...leopard skins, elephant tusks and boomerangs".
This is so interesting how they just squeeze the "Nubia south of Egypt" in the article, why did they do that?
quote: And even though it was remote enough that its ruler did not have to formally submit to the Egyptian King as did other Nubian rulers, at times Yam sent men for Egyptian ordered labor and military levies.
Next the writer tells us that Yam didn't submit to the Egyptian King like the other Nubian rulers implying Yam is a Nubian nation. "LUMP and DUMP" rule is in effect to separate Kemet from Africa.
quote: The location of Yam is important to scholars because it helps to determine how far into Africa Egyptian penetrated and also to asses the relative size and strength of various Nubian territories during the Old Kingdom.
How far into Africa Egyptian penetrated KEMET/EGYPT IS IN AFRIKA OR I AM NOT SEEING THE MAP PROPERLY, I GUESS IT'S TIME TO GET GLASSES.
NUBIA IS FOR THOSE WHO DON'T READ OR THOSE WHO ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF HISTORY STEALING.
Reference: (UNESCO) General History of Africa: Ancient Civilization of Africa, chapter 4: Egypt's Relations With the Rest of Africa, by G. Mokhtar, page 94 (1990):
"The Egyptians began to organize their links with the Sudan at the end of Fifth Dynasty. During the same period, a new political and economic post, known Governorship of the South, was established. The holder was responsible for the southern gate of Egypt, for organizing commercial exchanges and facilitating circulation of trading expeditions. Unas, a Governor of the South under Sixth Dynasty, was in command of recruits from different parts of Nubia: Nehesi (Nubians) from the land of Irhtet, Madja, Yam, Wawat and Kau."
"At the end of the Old Kingdom trade relations between Egypt and the Sudan were interrupted. However, the Prince of Edfu relates on the wall of his tomb at Mealla that grain was sent to Wawat to prevent famine. This is evidence that relations between Egypt and Nubia continued at that time. Furthermore, Nubian played an important part in the battles in Middle Egypt during the First Intermediate Period. There exist painted wooden models of a company of Nubian archers, forty strong, which show the importance accorded by the Egyptians to the Sudan soldier."
and
"Despite Egyptian influence and intervention, Meroitic culture south of the Fifth Cataract remained fundamentally African and Meroe had its own written African language." Reference: Arkamani Web Page
also
ca. 250 B.C.–350 A.D. (Meroitic Period) In about 250 B.C., the Kushite king Arkamani I moves the royal necropolis from Napata to Meroë, a site between the fifth and sixth cataracts. Meroë, already an important center during the Napatan Period, becomes the capital of the Kushite kingdom. Meroë's location at the convergence of a network of caravan roads with trade routes along the White and Blue Niles makes it East Africa's most important center of trade. The Kushites of the Meroitic Period manufacture richly decorated textiles, graceful decorated ceramic vessels, objects of bronze and iron, exceptionally fine gold and cloisonné jewelry, and other luxury items. From Egypt and the Hellenistic world they import metal and glass vessels, ceramics, and wine. Reference: Metropolitan Museum of Art Web PagePosts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:"Despite Egyptian influence and intervention, Meroitic culture south of the Fifth Cataract remained fundamentally African and Meroe had its own written African language."
This moron has apparently never read a map and noticed that Egypt is located in Africa.
The term - Middle East - when examined in cultural, anthropological and cultural terms makes very little sense. It is a geopolitical invention - void of any scientific basis. The term was first invented by American lecturer and Anglophile Alfred Thayer Mahan (1840-1914).
Mahan first invented the term 'Middle East' in the September 1902 issue of London's monthly "National Review" in an article entitled "The Persian Gulf and International Relations" in which he wrote: "The Middle East, if I may adopt the term which I have not seen."
This is rare example, where you can actually pinpoint the origin of a geopolitical lie.
continued.....
quote:Mahon's term referred only to the Persian Gulf region and Iran's southern coastline. Mahon was trying to find a way of removing the historical reference "Persian Gulf" since this offended the geopolitical sensitivities of the British imperial office.
thus the political calculation behind this revisionist history. And the reason?
quote:British imperial office has sought for ways for over 100 years to remove the legacy of Persia in the Persian Gulf. The very term 'Persian' continues to elicit a knee-jerk reaction among the distinguished petroleum and geopolitical barons with interests in the (so-called) "Middle East
Note - Egypt was not included in this original lie called Middle East. Why include Egypt? It has no oil to steal. Stealing "history" was not a part of the *original agenda*.
History is no different that any other kind of discourse. Once people get away with lies, they simply tell wilder and more exaggerated lies.
Hence...
quote:Mahon's invented term was popularized by Valentine Ignatius Chirol (1852-1929), a journalist designated as "a special correspondent from Tehran" by The Times newspaper. Chirol's seminal article "The Middle Eastern Question" expanded Mahon's version of the "Middle East" to now include "Persia, Iraq, the east coast of Arabia, Afghanistan, and Tibet". Surprised? Yes, you read correctly -Tibet! The term Middle East was (and is) a colonial construct used to delineate British (and now West European and US) geopolitical interests. ...So much for the 'origins' of the so-called 'Middle East'. It is important for Iranians to understand the overtly racist and geopolitical origins of this term. It is comical to see gullible Arabs, Iranians and to a lesser extent Turks (many who now wish to be 'European' actually) saying that they are 'Middle Eastern'.
Comical also to Western thug-intellectuals [W Buckley of National Review, Schlesinger, Kissinger, George Will, ad nauseum], because it affirms their ability to set the agenda, and the passive minded weakness of others, such as Arabs who are reduced to quoting back from them, because they can't even think independently about their own reality.
Progressive Indian intellectuals have taken to referring to Arabia, and SouthWest Asia because they are keenly aware of the insanity of teaching their children that and area that lies west of them constitutes the 'near' or 'middle' east.
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posted
Despite Egyptian influence and intervention, Meroitic culture south of the Fifth Cataract remained fundamentally African and Meroe had its own written African language.
quote:Underpants says:
This moron has apparently never read a map and noticed that Egypt is located in Africa.
Yes, and obviously he knows little to nothing about African culture since we all know that Egyptian culture is just about as African as you can get, from its political system, to its religion etc. ad nausium!! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Progressive Indian intellectuals have taken to referring to Arabia, and SouthWest Asia because they are keenly aware of the insanity of teaching their children that and area that lies west of them constitutes the 'near' or 'middle' east.
I find that ironic, since I tend to think of India as a "Middle Eastern" country. I think it's because the country's a hot Asian nation with few "Mongoloids", and the architecture has a stereotypical "Middle Eastern" look to it, demonstrated best in the Taj Mahal.
quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: I find that ironic, since I tend to think of India as a "Middle Eastern" country. I think it's because the country's a hot Asian nation with few "Mongoloids", and the architecture has a stereotypical "Middle Eastern" look to it, demonstrated best in the Taj Mahal.
Yes, well as as far as architecture, India was influence by Islamic art especially during the Mughal period, but the peoples of India are very diverse, but quite frankly there is a difference in physical appearance between northern Indians and Arabs whom some people have a hard time telling the difference apart. I find it ridiculous that after 9-11 many Sikhs were even mistaken for Arab muslims and targeted by prejudice.
But again, there is a difference and many Indians, especially those who aren't Muslim would feel insulted if one were to call them Arab and vice-versa (calling an Arab Indian).
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^You're right, it seems we got side-trekked as usual.
My main question is whether the kingdom of Yam really was 'replaced' by Kush as many scholars say, or whether Kush IS Yam but under a different regime or something??
In fact I recall that all throughout the Old Kingdom, Egypt and Yam were allies and close trading partners as can be read from the texts of Pepi II and Harkhuf. But then in the Middle and especially New Kingdom we start hearing about Kush and about how vile and dangerous they are to the Egyptians.
This raises the important questions of just who are the 'Yamites' and who are the 'Kushites' and what is the relationship between the two??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I Yam what I Yam, but on the serious side this "ite/ites" business seems so biblical even though it long ago found its way into Egyptology.
I don't know, it looks like Yam was located between Wawat and Kush proper (Upper Kush). Harkhuf mentions a ruler of Yam and I have reservations about a unified kingdom stretching from somewhere between the 2nd and the Dal cataract all the way up south to Butana back in 2500 BCE.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I Yam what I Yam, but on the serious side this "ite/ites" business seems so biblical even though it long ago found its way into Egyptology.
LOL Sorry but I'm not responsible for the Biblical 'ite' names. If you tell me the actual name the peoples called themselves or what the Kememu called them, then I'll use it. But until then... And on a serious side, candied baked yams taste soo good!
quote:I don't know, it looks like Yam was located between Wawat and Kush proper (Upper Kush). Harkhuf mentions a ruler of Yam and I have reservations about a unified kingdom stretching from somewhere between the 2nd and the Dal cataract all the way up south to Butana back in 2500 BCE.
What IS clear is that the Kushites were conquering territories all over 'Nubia' and that all the kingdoms were assimilated under the rule of Kush 'proper' by the Middle Kingdom.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Sai Island about 100 miles north of the Third Cataract of the Nile (and about 470 km. south of Aswan)
Here is the site of a large Neolithic settlement (dating probably from about 5000-4000 B.C.); the evidence for this was revealed in aerial photographs shown at a meeting in Lille, France, in 1994. By now it has probably been partly excavated. This would seem to be the largest, earliest "city" known in Africa (including Egypt). Here, too, is the site of a large Bronze Age town, probably dating as early as 2500 B.C. It may have been the capital of the "Kingdom of Yam" mentioned in Egyptian documents of the Sixth Dynasty. By about 2000 B.C. it seems to have been part of the early kingdom of Kush, centered at Kerma, and it remained probably the chief northern city of that state (ca. 2000-1500 B.C.), until conquered by the Egyptian pharaohs in early Dynasty 18. It was evidently called "Sha'a" (from which the modern name Sai derives); it had its own kings, whose tombs lay on the west side of the townsite and which are surrounded by hundreds of other smaller tombs. After it was conquered by the Egyptians, it became the site of an Egyptian fort and town until the Egyptians withdrew northward from the region about 1150 B.C.
quote: Prehistoric sites located on the east and west banks of the Nile between the Third and Fourth Cataracts of the Nile
The past few years of surface surveying and select excavating in these desert regions have revealed that the area was thickly populated and well watered about 5000 to 3500 B.C. Surveys up to 15 km. east of the present Nile bed have identified numerous village sites of increasingly greater age the farther away from the river one goes. This has revealed that the Nile has gradually moved westward, with the villages moving westward with it. The pottery and material objects recovered are quite spectacular; the earliest is of better quality than that of comparable age found in Egypt. On the west side of the Nile, only the oldest sites have been found, revealing that the later ones have been erased as the westward-moving Nile swept them away. Today on the west bank there are primarily Christian period remains. All along the east bank have been found towns of the Kerma period.
Excavators: Jacques Reinold, Ambassade de France à Khartoum Derek Welsby, Sudan Archaeological Research Society
quote: Wawat, Irtjet, Zatjou, Kaau and Yam. Whatever the precise extension and location of those territorial units, their existence seems all the more indisputable since Herkhouf, who apparently traveled at least four times through Nubia, explains in his biography how, on his third journey, he had to pacify the ruler of Yam who was chasing the desert Temehu, how, on his second journey, Zatjou and Irtjet had the same ruler whom he visited in his residence, and how, on its third journey, Irtjet, Zatjou and Wawat had unified under the authority of one ruler whose threat he had to face, with success thanks to an escort provided to him by the ruler of Yam (Roccati 1982 : 187-220).
It also appears from Herkhouf's account that Yam was not only the southernmost of those territorial units but that it was for the Egyptians their favored trading partner. This is why, at the light of what is now known of the archaeology of the Kerma basin, most scholars agree to identify it to Kerma and its territory, and to locate the four other units north of it. Trying to evaluate their territorial limits would be too debatable (supra), but it seems reasonable to think that Wawat, Irtjet and Zatjou shared a territory covering the former A-Group area and to suggest that Kaau was centered around Sai island, which archaeological remains (Geus 1996) and later inscriptions point out as a major centre at that time.
Francis Geus The Middle Nile Valley from Later Prehistory to the end of the New Kingdom Tenth International Conference of the International Society for Nubian Studies September 9-14, 2002 - Rome, Italy
Two women playing the harp and singing are represented in another small scene on Nikawre's false-door. Although dating to the first half of the Fifty Dynasty, the false-door adopted some of the themes of decoration of the chapels, and to anticipated trends more common towards the end of the Old Kingdom.
Yam-Nubians, the Wawat-Nubians, and the Kaau-Nubians'. A rock inscription in the Aswan area records that King Merenre in person received Nubian chiefs there in the 'year of the fifth census', during which 'the chiefs of Medja, Irtjet, and Wawat were kissing the ground and were giving very great adoration'. Weni was actively helped by the Nubians during the same reign: "His Majesty sent me to excavate five canels in Upper Egypt and to build three barges and four boats of acacia of Wawat, while the chiefs or Irtjet, Wawat, Yam, and Medja provided wood for them. I achieved it all in a single year.' Relations deteriorated towards the end of the Sixth Dynasty: Egypt's might was on the decline, while the power of Nubian chiefs was ascendant. Armed clashes and retributive expenditions led by administrations of the southernmost district of Egypt were frequently reported.
Reference:
In the Shadow of the Pyramids: Egypt During the Old Kingdom by Jaromir Malek (1992)
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You can compare and contrast the original article to the one below; which I have edited and refined for more accuracy...
Egyptian Names of pa Ethosh (the frontier, the interior)
All of the lands south and southeast of Egypt (sometimes also including the northeast) the Egyptians called, Tanoute, "God's Land." Within this great region, the Egyptians located the different countries and peoples of Ethosh. From the Old Kingdom onward, in addition to Ta- Seti, the Egyptians applied the name TaNahas as a general designation for Ethosh (n.b., nahas means, "suden;" Panahasi, "the sudeni" becomes a common personal name, developing into the Biblical name, Phineas). At the same time, Egyptians gave the name Wawat (Rebel) specifically to Lower Ethosh. This name derived from one of several Ethoshi chiefdoms which were located in this region during the late Old Kingdom. A generic designation of the desert nomads of Ethosh was the term Ontiu set , "Desert bowmen." The names which the Egyptians used to refer to the various parts of Ethosh and its different peoples usually changed depending upon the era and the particular ethnic group in a given area.
Elsewhere in the Old Kingdom, the names Irtjet , Zatju , and Kaau were used for particular people and areas of the country. While, previously, they were thought to be in Lower Ethosh, David O'Connor has recently made a strong case for locating them in Upper Ethosh. The Land of Yam , visited by Harkhuf, Governor of Abu (Elephant-ine), in the late 6th Dynasty, was apparently located around the Fifth or Sixth Cataracts. The Land of Punt (Pawon.t: the Existence; origination) was a country located east of Upper Ethosh and bordering on Kemwer; the Great Black Sea (later the Red Sea ; i.e., extending from the highlands to the sea). Since the Old Kingdom, the Egyptians often enjoyed a productive relationship with an Ethoshi ethnic people from the land of the Matoi (also M'djaiu)(called the "Pan-Grave People" by archaeologists). As fierce warriors, they were incorporated as mercenaries into the Egyptian army as early as the 6th Dynasty. Later in the New Kingdom, they were employed as the police force in Egypt, and the word matoi became the ancient Egyptian term for "policeman."
From the Middle Kingdom onward, the Egyptians regularly used the name Kush to refer to the powerful independent kingdom based in Upper Ethosh, first at Kerma (until that was destroyed by the Egyptians in the sixteenth century BC), thereafter at Napata , then Saba (renamed Meroe). Kush is identified as the Land of Kush in the Holy Bible. Kush's political dependency was the territory of Sha'at (in the region of the Isle of Sai). Other names attested at this time (mostly in execration texts) are: Iryshek, Tua, Imana'a and Ruket . In the eastern mountains were Awshek and Webet- sepat .
In the early 18th Dynasty, the Egyptians also used the name Khentu-honnefer ("Founders of the Perfect Order") to refer to Kush, especially during the military campaigns of Ahmose and Tuthmosis I. It appears as a general designation of the area of Upper Ethosh between the Second and Fourth Cataracts, and designates the region for which the city of Kerma was the center or capital. The name Irem was applied in the 18th Dynasty to the people who apparently lived in the southern reach of the Dongola Bend (i.e., the old territory of Yam). Later in the dynasty, the name Karoy was applied to the vicinity of Napata.
In the Late Period and during the Kingdom of Saba , the name, Island of Saba , was given to the triangular stretch of land on the east bank of the Nile, south of the Fifth Cataract. This section, dominated by the city of Saba, was bordered on the north by the Atbara River, on the west by the Nile, and on the south by the Blue Nile. The Island of Saba was the heartland of Sabaean (aka Meroitic) civilization and the political and cultural center of the Kingdom of Saba from ca. 590 BC to AD 300.
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