posted
How do you tell whether a black Egyptian has a Nubian or a Saidi (spelling?) background? Do Nubians in general have darker or lighter skin than Saidi? Does the difference involve mostly dress or some other fashion trait? Or can you distinguish the two ethnicities by accent.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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There is the stereotype that Nubians are darker while Sa'idi are lighter. While this may hold true in some cases, there are exceptions. For example, Many Kanuzi Nubians (those Nubians who live in southern Egypt) are light-skinned mainly because of Arab, Turkish, or even Albanian ancestry but there are Sa'idi living in certain rural parts of Luxor who are very dark and whom may be mistaken for Nubians.
The main difference is in dress styles and more importantly language. Nubians speak Nubian languages while Sa'idi do not.
Ausar knows a lot more about this, being that he himself is Sa'idi.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
This "Egyptian region" population vs. that of another "Egyptian region", does nothing to assist in creating a demarcation point in biological ties, no matter how many ways one tries to do so...it is a FUTILE concept!
If one acknowledges that the "indigenous" ancient inhabitants have living descendants in the region, then, once one realizes the implications of the following...
Keita, on centroid values of cranial series:
"Badarian (8) occupies a position closest to the Teita, Gaboon, Nubian, and Nagada series by centroid values and territorial maps. The Nagada and the Kerma series are so similar that they are barely INDISTINGUISHABLE in the territorial maps; they subsume the first dynasty series in Abydos… The Badarian crania have a modal metric phenotype that is clearly “southern”; most classify into the Kerma (Nubian), Gaboon, and Kenyan groups…No Badarian cranium in any analysis classified into the European series, and few grouped with the “E” series…Nutter (1958) found that they [the Nagada] are essentially identical to the Badarian series. The classification of crania into specific groups does NOT imply identity with those specific series, only AFFINITIES with broad patterns connoting COMMON ORIGINS..."
Keita, Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa
...surely one will also come to the understanding that labeling an "indigenous" Egyptian as a "Nubian" on the account of his/her dark skin, or that a "Nubian" isn't "indigenous" to Egypt, or any other attempt to pit indigenous Nile Valley inhabitants against one another through the likes of the "Nubian" vs another "Egyptian" from some other location of Upper Egypt, lacks coherent reasoning.
^ too "Africoid"? Reality > A native of the Nile Valley, AND an Egyptian.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:...surely one will also come to the understanding that labeling an "indigenous" Egyptian as a "Nubian" on the account of his/her dark skin, or that a "Nubian" isn't "indigenous" to Egypt, or any other attempt to pit indigenous Nile Valley inhabitants against one another through the likes of the "Nubian" vs another "Egyptian" from some other location of Upper Egypt, lacks coherent reasoning.
There is no precident in history for the way in which Eurocentrism attempt to separate a single river valley into two separate catagories of civilisation - one African, and other other...not.
Over the course of the last several weeks we have meticulously documented this fallacy - and how it is mired in internal contradictions that result in the European ideological need for non-African Ancient Egypt.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: How do you tell whether a black Egyptian has a Nubian or a Saidi (spelling?) background? Do Nubians in general have darker or lighter skin than Saidi? Does the difference involve mostly dress or some other fashion trait? Or can you distinguish the two ethnicities by accent
The main difference is mainly seen in both dialects and dress. The Sa'idi people range from a medium brownish color to a more dark brown coloring to manytimes ''black'' around Aswan. You will find that many Sa'idi people living in Aswan are only indiguiable from Nubians by both their dialect and dress.
You have two categories of Sa3eed which is almost sa3eed the area past Cairo extending into Minya and Asyut. Deep Sa3eed extends from Sohag down to the area of Aswan.
Although not as common know, the Nubians typically scared the cheeks;while Saidi did not.
Nubians also are very independent people that don't intermarry very easily with outside groups like the Sa3eedi. Nubians don't really consider Sa3eedi outsiders because many live quite close to each other and share many of the same customs.
Some villages in Middle Egypt have very recent settlements of bedouins and nomadic Berber tribes that settled down and married with Egyptian peasants. This was the policy of Muhammed Ali to settle the bedouin tribes down. In these areas you have people that claim to be Asraf[desendants of phophet Mohammed],Arabs[from the time of the Arab invasion, and fellahin.[they are usually on the bottom].
Most bahari[Lower Egyptians] nor foreigners understand Sa3eed. The many parts go by both family and clan origin. The region is still largely feudal and very poor compared to the northern regions. Only one large city exists in Sa3eed being the capital Asyut. Understand that not all of Saeed is uniform either because you find differences from a Saidi living in Sohag and in Luxor-Aswan.
Some terms:
Sa3eed: the area extending past Cairo into Aswan
almost Sa3eed: the area from Cairo to Asyut
Deep Sa3eed: past Asyut into Aswan area
Bahari[ means near the Sea and used for Northern Egyptian people]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Sa'idi people ca. 40 million (2020 estimate)
quote:
A Ṣa‘īdī (Egyptian Arabic: صعيدى, Coptic: ⲣⲉⲙⲣⲏⲥ Remris) is a person from Upper Egypt (Arabic: صعيد مصر, Coptic: ⲙⲁⲣⲏⲥ Maris).
Socioeconomic status Approximately 40% of Egyptians live in Upper Egypt, and 80% of Egypt's severe poverty is concentrated in Upper Egypt. The settling of family disputes and blood feuds by firearms (often antiquated, such as Mauser rifle) since at least the 1940s is a long cultural trend in the community, especially in the Hamradoum and Nag Hammadi areas. Weapons smuggling from Libya and Sudan is also notable in the area.
Etymology
quote: The word literally means "from Ṣa‘īd" (i.e. Upper Egypt), and can also refer to a form of music originating there,[3] or to the dialect spoken by Sa‘idis. The Arabic word Ṣa‘īd, as a geographical term, means "highland, upland, plateau". The suffix "-i" denotes the adjective. The word Ṣa‘īdi is pronounced in the dialect itself as [sˤɑˈʕiːdi] or [sˤɑˈʕiːdej] and the plural is [sˤɑˈʕɑːjda] or [sˤɑˈʕɑːjde], while pronounced in Egyptian Arabic (Northern Egyptian) as [sˤeˈʕiːdi] and the plural is [sˤɑˈʕɑjdɑ].
In the Sahidic (Upper Egyptian) dialect of Coptic, the name for a person from Upper Egypt is ⲣⲉⲙⲣⲏⲥ (pronounced rem/rīs) meaning "person of the South" or ⲣⲉⲙ(ⲡ)ⲙⲁⲣⲏⲥ (pronounced rem/pma/rīs or rem/ma/rīs) "person of (the) place of the south (i.e. Upper Egypt)".
The main city of prehistoric Upper Egypt was Nekhen.The patron deity was the goddess Nekhbet, depicted as a vulture.
By approximately 3600 BC, Neolithic Egyptian societies along the Nile based their culture on the raising of crops and the domestication of animals. Shortly thereafter, Egypt began to grow and increase in complexity. A new and distinctive pottery appeared, related to the Levantine ceramics, and copper implements and ornaments became common. Mesopotamian building techniques became popular, using sun-dried adobe bricks in arches and decorative recessed walls.
In Upper Egypt, the predynastic Badari culture was followed by the Naqada culture (Amratian), closely related to the Nubian and other tropical African populations, and the Proto-dynastic kings emerged from the Naqada region. Excavations at Hierakonpolis (Upper Egypt) found archaeological evidence of ritual masks similar to those used further south of Egypt, and obsidian linked to Ethiopian quarry sites.
According to bioarchaeologist Nancy Lovell, the morphology of ancient Egyptian skeletons gives strong evidence that "In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas" but exhibited local variation in an African context.
S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist also reviewed studies on the biological affinities of the Ancient Egyptian population and characterised the skeletal morphologies of predynastic southern Egyptians as a "Saharo-tropical African variant". Keita had also added that whilst Egyptian society became more socially complex and biologically varied, the “ethnicity of the Niloto-Saharo-Sudanese origins did not change”.
These cultural advances paralleled the political unification of towns of the upper Nile River, or Upper Egypt, while the same occurred in the societies of the Nile Delta, or Lower Egypt. This led to warfare between the two new kingdoms. During his reign in Upper Egypt, King Narmer defeated his enemies on the delta and became sole ruler of the two lands of Upper and Lower Egypt, a sovereignty which endured throughout Dynastic Egypt.
posted
I believe the topic is on modern populations of Upper Egypt not predynastic populations.
That said, another stereotypical difference in looks between Sa'idi and Nubians is that the former tend to have stockier builds with more "negroid" facial features while the latter have slender builds with "caucasoid" facial features.
This assertion is also supported by cranial studies of Egyptians from the post-Roman period.
An excellent question then is why is it Sa'idi look more "negroid" in regards to features than Nubians, even though the latter are darker in complexion??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Well not all modern nubians of egypt have caucasoid facial facial features.
Of course the average nubian(nile,central,darfur hill hubians in nuba hills) in sudan from what i seen and read do have not caucasoid facial features.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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posted
^ I was referring specifically to riverine Nubians of southern Egypt and northern Sudan. Yes the Hill Nubians are more "negroid" but again the stereotype is that the riverine populations have narrow features.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
To be clear from what i know about ancient nubians,read and seen lower nubians tend to have on average caucasoid type features.
Of course ancient nubians like modern nubians had varied types of features but the average ancient nubian did not have caucasoid features.
Ancient upper and southern nubians more so on average do not have caucasoid features.
Now if you talking about modern nubians in sudan from what i seen and i could be wrong but the average modern sudanese nubian does not have caucasoid features.
posted
^ There are three main groups of Nile or riverine Nubians identified with descent from the 3 kingdoms, from north to south-- Kanuzi, Mahas, and Danagla.
The Kanuzi are primary group inhabiting southern Upper Egypt that is stereotypically described as "caucasoid" in look. Meanwhile Baladi Sa'idi are described as more "negroid".
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Of course the average ancient lower nubian had a africoid look from what i read and their features on average if i remember correctly were narrow or closer to narrow or in the middle but did not look caucasoid on average.
They still on average look black.
OF course there are a few modern nubians today that look racially brown(intermediate types) and a few that look white from what i seen but on average most look black/africoid.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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posted
Pseudo scientist like to put brown types(most modern south asians for example) into the caucasoid camp as well when it's convenient for them but they know in thier own hearts they don't really consider brown types as white or race wise caucasoid.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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posted
^ I never said they didn't look black, only that stereotypically speaking they had more narrow features in comparison to Sa'idi. This is something noted by many anthropologists. My point was to show the paradoxical dilemma. Many scholars think Sa'idi look more "negroid" due to admixture with Sub-Saharans. Curiously the historical records and archaeology (though there is gap in the post-Roman period) don't show this, but the Abusir study seems to indicate this. Of course, this is assuming the Abusir sample represents authentic Egyptians as opposed to those of Asiatic immigrant descent.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
As far as cultural difference, one major difference between Sa'idi and Kenuzi/Nubians is that the former trace lineage to a specific family whereas the latter are use broader segmented lineage grouping multiple families into a clan and clans into a tribe. Ausar mentioned they have slightly different funerary customs from Sa'idi but he never explained what those were.
Another difference I noticed is that Nubian women have a tradition of painting their houses with pretty colors and images.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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