posted
Kmtyw definitely had high regard for Amami (the lands far upNile) but I've seen no text of theirs of them claiming to come from the Mountains of the Moon. Every Greco-Roman geographer who ever used the term and the peoples near the Ruwenzoris know these Mountains of the Moon to be (at) the source of the Nile and not any mountains in the Sahara Desert.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You know the Egyptians are suppose to have claimed that their ancestors came from the Mountain of the Moon or Punt. They accepted the fact they did not originallly live along the Nile, yet today we aknowledge that they were of Kemit, yet their ancestors came from somewhere else.
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posted
The amazing thing about the Kemetians is that - they did indeed know where their ancestors came from - Ta Khent, inner Africa, and modern scholarhip confirms this:
Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley came from south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North.
ref Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982),
vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
Prof. Wallis Budge writes on the Egyptian race: "The flint tools and weapons that have been found on the skirts of the desert at various places in
p. 4
Egypt, and that are generally admitted to be older than those of the Neolithic period, i.e., the New Stone Age, render it extremely probable that the country was inhabited by men in the Palęolithic period, i.e., the Old Stone Age. The questions that naturally arise in connection with them are: Who were they? To what race did they belong? If they were immigrants, where did they come from? In the limited space afforded by a single chapter it is impossible to enumerate even the most important of the arguments of which these questions have formed the subjects, or the principal theories, old and new, of the origin of the Egyptians. Fortunately Egyptian archęology, even in its present imperfect state, supplies a number of facts, which will suggest answers to these questions that are tolerably correct; and, as time goes on and the results of further research are perfected, our knowledge of these difficult questions may assume a decisive character. The human remains that have been found in Neolithic graves in Egypt prove that the Egyptians of the Neolithic period in upper Egypt were Africans, and there is good reason for thinking that they were akin to all the other inhabitants of the Nile Valley at that time. When the great geological change took place that turned
p. 5
into a river valley the arm of the sea that extended as far as Esnā, and the Nile deposits had formed the soil of Egypt, their ancestors migrated from the south to the north and occupied the land made by the Nile. Whether these facts apply equally to the Delta cannot be said, for no Neolithic graves in the Delta are known. Egyptian tradition of the Dynastic period held that the aboriginal home of the Egyptians was Punt, and though our information about the boundaries of this land is of the vaguest character, it is quite certain that a very large portion of it was in central Africa, and it probably was near the country called in our times 'Uganda.' There was in all periods frequent intercourse between Egypt and Punt, and caravans must have journeyed from one country to the other at least once a year. In the dynastic period several missions by sea were despatched to the port of Punt to bring back myrrh and other products of the country, which were so dear to the heart of the kinsmen of the Puntites who were settled in Egypt.
"Now, if the inhabitants of the southern portion of the Valley of the Nile were attracted to the good and fertile land of Egypt, it follows, as a matter of course, that foreign peoples who heard of this rich land would migrate thither in order to partake
p. 6
of its products and to settle in it. The peoples on the western bank--Libyans--and the dwellers in the eastern desert would intermarry with the native Egyptians, and the same would be the case with the negro and half-negro tribes in the Sūdān. At a very early period, and certainly in Neolithic times, a considerable number of Semites must have made their way into Egypt, and these came from the Arabian peninsula on the other side of the Red Sea, either for trading purposes or to settle in Egypt. Some of these crossed the Red Sea in its narrowest part, probably near the straits of Bāb al-Mandib at the southern end of it, and made their way into the country where the comparatively modern town of Sennaar now stands, just as their descendants did some three to five thousand years later. Here they would find themselves not only in fertile land, but they would also be in touch with the tribes living in the region where, from time immemorial, alluvial gold has been found in considerable quantities. Others of the Semites must have made their way into the Delta by the Isthmus of Suez, and there is no doubt that by intermarriage they modified the physical characteristics of many of the natives. Others, again, must have entered Egypt by way of the very ancient caravan
p. 7
route through the Wadi Hammānāt, which left the Red Sea near the modern town of Kusźr and ended on the Nile near Kenā in upper Egypt. It is impossible to think that the Semites in Arabia had no seagoing boats in which to cross the Red Sea, and that those who lived on the coast halfway down the Red Sea would be obliged to go so far north as the Isthmus of Suez, or so far south as Bāb al-Mandib before they could cross over into Africa.
"In the case of the natives of the Delta foreign influences of another kind would be at work. Here would flock traders of all kinds from the land that is now called Palestine, and from the islands of the Mediterranean, and from the seacoast and the countries inland to the west of Egypt. Some think that even in the Neolithic period there were many settlers who had come from the southern countries of Europe. If the above remarks are only approximately true, we are justified in assuming that the population of the Valley of the Nile was even at this early period very much mixed. It must, however, be noted that neither Libyans, nor Semites, nor seafaring folk of any kind, altered the fundamental characteristics of the African dwellers on the Nile."
quote:Originally posted by rasol: The amazing thing about the Kemetians is that - they did indeed know where their ancestors came from - Ta Khent, inner Africa, and modern scholarhip confirms this:
Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley came from south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North.
ref Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982),
vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
- Lefkowitz.
I agree...but to correct some "Western" misconceptions (ie, Bruce G. Trigger,Lefkowitz):
a) At the time of the formation of Kemet, there was no Sahara to be south of (in the sense of its being a barrier).
quote: African Physical Geography The Sahara has undergone a series of wet periods, the most recent occurring c.5,00010,000 years ago; it was not until c.3000 B.C. that the Sahara transformed into its present arid state.
...and a much smaller arid state, I should say, "South of the Sahara" would probably be any latitude slightly south of Memfi (Memphis), Kemet - which would be practically near the north African coastline...
b) The Kememu always knew and stated where their origins lay - in the heart of Africa: P_won.t; Eau; Ta Khent...
(and you certainly don't construct a sophisticated culture (pyramids in the 3rd Pharaonic dynasty!) and not know where you came from!)
P_won.t = "The existance" or "The beginning of existance"; Moderns write it as Punt; and this is a region and not a state - it just implies "where we come from"
Eau = "Old country"
Ta Khent = "Land of the beginning/founders..." - Ta Khent could be used to speak of the most southern border of Kemet or the African interior in general.
The "mountains of the moon" or the Great Lakes region in Africa is where, even EW Budge, traces the origins of the Ancient Egyptian language and thus its original populations. It too, is simply a point of reference to indicate the origins of the Ancient Egyptian peoples.
c) Ta Ntr The Kememu also referred to these very same regions as "Ta Ntr." And there is usually the simplistic approach of interpreting this to mean "Land of the gods." Not quite right: the word "Ntr" can have several meanings, but its root is "ancestor"; the revered ancestors of national stature would be elevated to the position of a god (or Saint if it was a Catholic culture); so in the context of referring to Pwont, Eau, or Ta Khent as Ta Ntr, this would indicate, without ambiguity, that "(inner) Africa is the land of our ancestors."
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posted
Interesting. I have heard of the theories that suggest the "Mountains of the Moon" were located somewhere west in the Sahara and could either be the Tibesti or Ahaggar mountains, but more detailed descriptions from the Book of the Dead do support a southern location somewhere at the source of the Nile. Although scholars aren't sure exactly specifically where they could be. There are some like Michael Rice who think these mountains could be somewhere in Ethiopian highlands.
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posted
As I said, the Kmtyw recognized deep inner Africa as Amami the most direct Rn ntr word that means "land of the ancestors." The point I'm making is that they left no text with the words "Mountains of the Moon"
We know beyond doubt folk moved downriver from both Tana and Ruwenzori the respective sources of the Blue and White Niles.
The points is not that ancestral middle Nile peoples did not arrive from both the south and the west of the Nile, because we know they did, but that the supposed quote from Hunefer about Hapi and the Mountains of the Moon is bogus as is the recent identification of the Mountains of the Moon being in the Sahara is also a fallacy.
We don't need fabricated texts or fantasy locales. We have linguistic, anthropological, archaeological, genetic, and textual evidence in more than abundance on the ultimate origins of Middle and Lower Nile Valley populations, their culture and cultus.
We know why it was all so important that early dynastic kings to greatly desired the presence of an immigrant Denq dancer of the Ntrw from Amami, land of the ancestors in their court.
BTW - the Mountains of the Moon is not the Great Lakes loosely. The Ruwenzori mountain range is precisely the Mountains of the Moon.
The baAmba and baKonzo peoples believe that the snow of their homeland mountains is the source of rivers and streams. Ruwenzori means "Rain Maker."
This thread could be used to look into the Ruwenzoris and the peoples and cultures of its environs. Big things are going on there of ominous importance to the parts of the continent receiving its rains and melted snow runoffs.
quote:BaKonzo cosmology begins with the creator, Nyamuhanga, who made the snow, Nzururu. According to oral legend, Nzururu is the father of the spirits, Kitasamba and Nyabibuya, who are responsible for human life, its continuity and its welfare. Kitasamba, who lives in the glaciated mountain peaks, is a giant force who controls the natural environment and the lives of all BaKonzo. Locally, the BaKonzo attribute the loss of snow to a turning away from their traditional customs that has angered Kitasamba. They believe that deforestation driven by rapid population growth is also to blame.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: . . . . but that the supposed quote from Hunefer about Hapi and the Mountains of the Moon is bogus
I agree with this. I have been checking all afternoon, and found no such quote by Hunefer.
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1 - there's no Mountains of the Moon in the Book of Coming Forth by Day.
2 - the Greco-Roman authors left on record the exact location of the Mountains of the Moon from their East African informants.
Ptolemy mentioned and mapped their location as Montes Lunae and it was drawn down later in the lower right corner of this map
alAdrisi also mapped them out thusly
quote:Al-Idrisi map of 1533. Please note that on early Arabic maps of this type, South was placed at the top of the map. This map image has been turned upside down to aid the viewer.
The Mountains of the Moon are in the 7 or 8 o'clock position, and appear upside down.
According to Ptolemy, the source of the Nile River was the Mountains of the Moon (also called Montes Lunae.) This was based on the story of Diogenes, who was blown off course while sailing to India, landed in Africa, and traveled inland for 25 days to the source of the Nile. The source was water from snowy mountains. The name may have referred to the fact that these mountains are always covered in snow, and many people in the region had not ever seen snow up close. These mountains were in actuality the Ruwenzori mountain range near Lake Victoria, which were explored in 1888 by the famous Henry Stanley, and given their African name.
The Mountains of the Moon are generally depicted as having 8 rivers flowing from the mountains into two small lakes (4 each.) Rivers from the 2 small lakes flow into a larger lake, from which the Nile flows.
One day these African Lakes now burdened with names immortalizing the depredations of colonization will regain their rightful Nyanza names.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Interesting. I have heard of the theories that suggest the "Mountains of the Moon" were located somewhere west in the Sahara and could either be the Tibesti or Ahaggar mountains, but more detailed descriptions from the Book of the Dead do support a southern location somewhere at the source of the Nile. Although scholars aren't sure exactly specifically where they could be. There are some like Michael Rice who think these mountains could be somewhere in Ethiopian highlands.
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posted
We have no reliable evidence that the Egyptians knew who their ancestors were, we do not even know.
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posted
The Land of Punt (Cradle of the Egyptian race) The country of Punt was actually a region, the same region that the Kemetians referred to as "Ta Nter" or "God's Land," or quite simply the "country" of East Africa, reaching as far south as Mozambique. The Somali coast was merely a 'stepping-off' point for any journey into the interior. The products of Punt were the products of this entire East African region which, in part, explains their diversity.
The word is formed from p + won + it or - Pounit; pwonit : "country of the first existence"
The Kememu knew that p_won_t ("country of the first existence"; "country of our ancestors", etc) was East Africa, or quite simply, Africa. The specific locality of a particular Punt location depended upon which ethnic Kememu formed the ruling class. (ie; Anu, Mesnitu/Shemsu Hor, etc...)
"Ta Nter," "Punt," "Iau/Eau" are all synonyms for the same neighborhood. It wasn't a nation...
Interestingly, a recent article on TourEgypt's website on Punt, after meandering about Punt, concludes with a question, but essentially agrees with what I have just explained as a statement...
quote: One even wonders whether Punt was indeed an actual political entity through all the years between Egypt's Old and New Kingdoms, or was rather more of a generalized, perhaps encompassing a rather large area of Eastern Africa. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/punt.htm
quote: In Ancient Egypt, this household practice (of honoring the dead) evolved into the formal placement of a pennant outside the dwellings of spirits. When the concept of spirit or deity came to be written down, the hieroglyphic sign chosen to symbolize it was the stylized image of a household pennant, the hieroglyphic sign for the word Netcher. --Ayi Kwei Armah p13 April 2006 - New African magazine
Thusly, for example, Osiris was an actual person, who upon his death was honored by the general population, as he was a national personage, and became deified; as was Isis (Royal ancestors of the entire Ancient Egyptian nation/people). Also, Mdu Ntr - which means "Words of the god (ancestor) Thoth, could also be translated as "Words of (our) ancestors."
Ta Ntr= "Land of our ancestors," and would always be mentioned throughout the long drama of Ancient Egyptian history; the Kememu always made it plain and explicit that they originated in the heartland of the African continent.
Some other words from the Mdu Ntr for ancestors
Abut - ancestors, forefathers Awaut - old men, ancestors Emiu het - those who've come before Po - ancestor Maauti - ancestresses in general Mhet - those who are in the beginning Topiu - forebear, ancestor Seshu - ancestors Ter bah - from of old, ancestor
(Incidentally, "The Book of the Dead" that is usually translated by Egytologists is actually The Papyrus of Ani - the version written by the Anu ethnic group; other names were "The Book of the Great Awakening", "The Book of Coming Forth by Day (ie, spring/resurrection).") ...
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quote: If you can prove all of this suff I expect to see you in the academic journals recieving awards. Fact is, that won't happen, we all know that.
I believe that if Takruri wrote this material up he could get it published. All he has to do is take the time to write it up. It would probably be an even better paper if he co-wrote it with Wally given the later's knowledge of Egyptian.
posted
Nonsense Wally, you are taking information you have little understanding of and drawing vast conclusions. No Egyptologist agrees with what you stated. This is another example of careless scholarship for the purpose of propaganda. AE never stated anywhere that they originated in the 'heartland.'
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Although I disagree with many of your findings, your works in some of 70's/80's era Afrikan publications as well as your propounding that a theory's pieces have to be replicable and falsifiable if they're valid and worthy of testing, were all seminal in my development as an amateur "Africanist."
Being an uncredentialed amateur (my degree is in a science and logic related field) I shy away from writing and fully documenting (footnotes and bibliography) papers for puplications reserved for those who are professionals, society members, and participants in conferences although I do enjoy communicating and pressing argument with a few of them.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Hore
quote: If you can prove all of this suff I expect to see you in the academic journals recieving awards. Fact is, that won't happen, we all know that.
I believe that if Takruri wrote this material up he could get it published. All he has to do is take the time to write it up. It would probably be an even better paper if he co-wrote it with Wally given the later's knowledge of Egyptian.
Keep up the good work Takruri.
.
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: We have no reliable evidence that the Egyptians knew who their ancestors were, we do not even know.
So you say that the Egyptians' own records are somehow unreliable?? LOL No doubt, if their records indicated otherwise or better yet origins from Western Asia, you would be the first to repeat such info over and over again to us but since not...
And if by "we" not knowing, you mean scholars, think again! There are actually a number of Egyptologists who acknowledge the Kemetians own ancestry. Even the so-called "Father of Egyptology" himself, Petrie stated that Egyptian ancestry is to found in the Sudan or further.
quote: If you can prove all of this suff I expect to see you in the academic journals recieving awards. Fact is, that won't happen, we all know that.
Well I don't know about accepting awards, but again such hypothesis has been in academic journals for a while now from Petrie to even know. Egyptologist Michael Rice is at present focusing his research in the Nabta area and in the Sudan region in general.
quote: Nonsense Wally, you are taking information you have little understanding of and drawing vast conclusions. No Egyptologist agrees with what you stated. This is another example of careless scholarship for the purpose of propaganda. AE never stated anywhere that they originated in the 'heartland.'
LMAO You said the same thing about Rasol right after he cited an actual expert on Afrasian languages which explicitly stated its origins in East Africa!!
Are you saying Wally's translations are wrong?? Do YOU know more accurate translations? Perhaps you can ask your new pal Winters, to give you a more 'appropriate' transaltion using West African Mande languages or Dravidian of India! LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Clyde Winters: I believe that if Takruri wrote this material up he could get it published. All he has to do is take the time to write it up. It would probably be an even better paper if he co-wrote it with Wally given the later's knowledge of Egyptian.
Keep up the good work Takruri.
Very well said I concur Dr. Winters! These guys are brilliant! But you when you think about it: alTakruri, Wally, Supercar, Rasol, Djehuti and others are probably reaching more people through this forum than they would through books. In my opinion they're doing the public a great service by synthesizing material from various fields to tell the truth about Nile valley civilization.
Dr. Winters I also think that your civility to all posters, despite the fact that we disagree with much of what you write, is a reflection of your tremendous dignity, maturity, and character.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I put the missing map back in. Enjoy!
,,
As I said, the Kmtyw recognized deep inner Africa as Amami the most direct Rn ntr word that means "land of the ancestors." The point I'm making is that they left no text with the words "Mountains of the Moon"
We know beyond doubt folk moved downriver from both Tana and Ruwenzori the respective sources of the Blue and White Niles.
The points is not that ancestral middle Nile peoples did not arrive from both the south and the west of the Nile, because we know they did, but that the supposed quote from Hunefer about Hapi and the Mountains of the Moon is bogus as is the recent identification of the Mountains of the Moon being in the Sahara is also a fallacy.
We don't need fabricated texts or fantasy locales. We have linguistic, anthropological, archaeological, genetic, and textual evidence in more than abundance on the ultimate origins of Middle and Lower Nile Valley populations, their culture and cultus.
We know why it was all so important that early dynastic kings to greatly desired the presence of an immigrant Denq dancer of the Ntrw from Amami, land of the ancestors in their court.
BTW - the Mountains of the Moon is not the Great Lakes loosely. The Ruwenzori mountain range is precisely the Mountains of the Moon.
The baAmba and baKonzo peoples believe that the snow of their homeland mountains is the source of rivers and streams. Ruwenzori means "Rain Maker."
This thread could be used to look into the Ruwenzoris and the peoples and cultures of its environs. Big things are going on there of ominous importance to the parts of the continent receiving its rains and melted snow runoffs.
quote:BaKonzo cosmology begins with the creator, Nyamuhanga, who made the snow, Nzururu. According to oral legend, Nzururu is the father of the spirits, Kitasamba and Nyabibuya, who are responsible for human life, its continuity and its welfare. Kitasamba, who lives in the glaciated mountain peaks, is a giant force who controls the natural environment and the lives of all BaKonzo. Locally, the BaKonzo attribute the loss of snow to a turning away from their traditional customs that has angered Kitasamba. They believe that deforestation driven by rapid population growth is also to blame.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thought I used something else but putting in Ptolemy.
. . .
Two things
1 - there's no Mountains of the Moon in the Book of Coming Forth by Day.
2 - the Greco-Roman authors left on record the exact location of the Mountains of the Moon from their East African informants.
Ptolemy mentioned and mapped their location as Montes Lunae and it was drawn down later in the lower right corner of this map
alAdrisi also mapped them out thusly
quote:Al-Idrisi map of 1533. Please note that on early Arabic maps of this type, South was placed at the top of the map. This map image has been turned upside down to aid the viewer.
The Mountains of the Moon are in the 7 or 8 o'clock position, and appear upside down.
According to Ptolemy, the source of the Nile River was the Mountains of the Moon (also called Montes Lunae.) This was based on the story of Diogenes, who was blown off course while sailing to India, landed in Africa, and traveled inland for 25 days to the source of the Nile. The source was water from snowy mountains. The name may have referred to the fact that these mountains are always covered in snow, and many people in the region had not ever seen snow up close. These mountains were in actuality the Ruwenzori mountain range near Lake Victoria, which were explored in 1888 by the famous Henry Stanley, and given their African name.
The Mountains of the Moon are generally depicted as having 8 rivers flowing from the mountains into two small lakes (4 each.) Rivers from the 2 small lakes flow into a larger lake, from which the Nile flows.
One day these African Lakes now burdened with names immortalizing the depredations of colonization will regain their rightful Nyanza names.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Interesting. I have heard of the theories that suggest the "Mountains of the Moon" were located somewhere west in the Sahara and could either be the Tibesti or Ahaggar mountains, but more detailed descriptions from the Book of the Dead do support a southern location somewhere at the source of the Nile. Although scholars aren't sure exactly specifically where they could be. There are some like Michael Rice who think these mountains could be somewhere in Ethiopian highlands.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Look at the link on my new thread, this new claim is that the Mountains of the Moon are implied in the Famine Stela
posted
P.wont ~ font/pond/pontus? vent?bend? Phoenix? Eau (French) water Pontus Euxinus - Black Sea Ta Netr - land of ancestors ~ Atanetris/Atrahasis?
Pygmoid people speak Kimbuti at Ruwenzori. - - -
Wally: P_won.t = "The existance" or "The beginning of existance"; Moderns write it as Punt; and this is a region and not a state - it just implies "where we come from"
Eau = "Old country"
Ta Khent = "Land of the beginning/founders..." - Ta Khent could be used to speak of the most southern border of Kemet or the African interior in general.
The "mountains of the moon" or the Great Lakes region in Africa is where, even EW Budge, traces the origins of the Ancient Egyptian language and thus its original populations. It too, is simply a point of reference to indicate the origins of the Ancient Egyptian peoples.
c) Ta Ntr The Kememu also referred to these very same regions as "Ta Ntr." And there is usually the simplistic approach of interpreting this to mean "Land of the gods." Not quite right: the word "Ntr" can have several meanings, but its root is "ancestor"; the revered ancestors of national stature would be elevated to the position of a god (or Saint if it was a Catholic culture); so in the context of referring to Pwont, Eau, or Ta Khent as Ta Ntr, this would indicate, without ambiguity, that "(inner) Africa is the land of our ancestors."
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No doubt, if their records indicated otherwise or better yet origins from Western Asia, you would be the first to repeat such info over and over again to us but since not...
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