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Africans formed the substratum of civilizations worldwide. By African, I mean, in addition to negritoes and steatophygous females and those Africans with straight hair (reflecting past racial mixing), Africans are also individuals with some combination of a round nose and mouth fuller than and hair woolier than 98% of whites and Asians.
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Great Poster Marc. This is an excellent introduction to Blacks in China.
Genetic evidence can tell us very little about the ancient Chinese. Most Chinese mtDNA studies are related to the Han, The Han only recently entered China. They are associated with the founders of the Zhou Dynasty (1000BC). The only ancient DNA studied in China were the Linzi people dating to 500 BC. The Linzi people are believed to have been "Europeans".
The skeletal remains from southern China are predominately Negroid . The people practiced single burials. Secondly, archaeological research makes it clear that Negroids were very common to ancient China. In fact the oldest examples of homo sapien sapien in China were Negroes. F. Weidenreich ( in Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-30) noted that the one of the earliest skulls from north China found in the Upper Cave of Chou-k'ou-tien, was of a Negroid/Melanesoid " (p.163). These blacks were the dominant group in South China. Kwang-chih Chang, writing in the 4th edition of Archaeology of ancient China (1986) wrote that:" by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the population in North China and that in the southwest and in Indochina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and OCEANIC NEGROID races respectively…."(p.64). By the Upper Pleistocene the Negroid type was typified by the Liu-chiang skulls from Yunnan (Chang, 1986, p.69).
Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch'ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases ( see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k'ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes were still in the North in addition to South China. The Dawenkou culture predates the Lung-shan culture which is associated with the Xia civilization.
The Africans or blacks that founded civilization in China were often called li min "black headed people" by the Zhou dynasts. This term has affinity to the Sumero-Akkadian term sag- gig-ga "black headed people". These li min are associated with the Chinese cultural hero Yao.
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty ( situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi. In the Annals of the Bamboo Books, we learn that Yao devised a calendar to help regulate agrarian work through proper use of ritual and music and created a rudimentary government. The Annals of the Bamboo Books, makes it clear that Yao "he united and harmonized the myriad states [of his dominion], and the [li min] black headed people were reformed by his cordial agreement".
We also read that Shun, the successor of Yao, distinguished by his reputation as an obedient devoted son, noted to : "Ki [that] the Black headed people are suffering the distress of hunger". To help relieve the people Shun gave his throne over to Yu, the founder of the Shang Dynasty. Yu, in the Annals of the Bamboo Books, is reported to have noted that "...when a sovereign gives response to the people, he is kind, and the Black headed people cherish him in their heart". Web Sites relating to Black Chinese: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/blshang.htm
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The Chinese writing is of African origin and the meaning of certain Shang characters, compare favorably to the ancient Proto-Saharan script used by the Harappans in the Indus Valley and the Manding script used in the ancient Sahara and Crete . Winters (1985c) outlined the spread of the Proto-Saharan script to Harappa, and throughout Saharan Africa and Asia by the Dravidians and Manding.
The identification of the first hero of China, Hu Nak Kunte as a member of the Kunte clan of the Manding speakers of Africa is supported by the close relationship between the Manding languages and Chinese. Even though we do not know the ancient pronunciation of many Chinese signs many Chinese and Manding words share analogy and suggest a Manding substratum for Chinese.
Evidence of Chinese writing first appears around 2000 B.C. as pottery marks. (Ramsey 1987, p.134) The shell-and-bone characters represented writing they were not pictures. (Ramsey 1987, p.135) In figure 24:1, we compare 14 ancient Chinese symbols and 14 ancient Manding symbols. As you can see although their are different contemporary pronunciations for these symbols they have the same meaning and shape. This suggest a genetic relationship between these scripts because we know that the present pronunciation of the Chinese symbols probably has little relationship to the ancient pronunciation of Chinese spoken in Xia and Shang times when these characters were first used. This cognation of scripts supports the proposed Dravidian and Manding migration and settlement of ancient China during Xia times.
The pronunciation of Chinese is based on the Beijing Chinese dialect which is called Mandarin Chinese. This Chinese language is also called Putonghua 'common language'. There are two systems of romanization of Chinese the Pinyin and Wade-Giles systems.
Mandarin Chinese is made up of 405 basic monosyllabics. The addition of tones to the monosyllables increased the number of basic terms to 1200.
The earliest literary Chinese is called Old Chinese. Based upon the Book of Odes and other phonetic data scholars have reconstructed the Chinese spoken around 550 B.C. (Ramsey 1987, p.134) This is good , but Old Chinese would not reflect all the speech sounds and lexical items of the blacks who found the Xia and Shang civilizations because by this time the Han Chinese were in political control of much of China.
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Peer Reviewed article on Afrocentric Linguistics written by Dr. Clyde Winters
Winters, Clyde A. Title: The Afrocentric Historical and Linguistic Methods.
Source: Western Journal of Black Studies v22 n2 p73-83 Sum 1998
Standard No: ISSN: 0197-4327
Clearinghouse: UD521362
Language: English
Abstract: Reviews the authentic historical and linguistic methods traditionally employed by Afrocentrists, noting that "Africalogical" research has long been conducted by Afrocentric scholars, and that, up until the 1930s, the history of African civilizations and people was the "preserve" of Afrocentric scholars. Contains over 100 references. (Author/SLD)
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Lazar. Not only was Buddha African (the way I define it) but the page below bolsters the fact that Buddhism sprang from an African bosom as the first Buddhists in Japan were African (as I have defined African). See the images 1, 2, 3:
Of course, today Buddha is portrayed as white and Buddhism portrayed as a white and Asian thing (Asian meaning, in the public mind, non-African). We're used to this kind of thing, though.
Take care,
Marc W.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Not only was Buddha African (the way I define it)
lol.
Not only is Nelson Mandela Chinese (the way I define it), but the African National Congress was originally and Asian organisation based on the philosphy of Gandhi who was and Asian- who lived in South Africa.
take care,
rasol, of the 'Washington' school of history. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Well brotha, I have to admit that not all of those pics above look exactly "Black" or "African" or even "Negro". Listen, my professor in undergrad(a very good Black scholar) taught us to interrogate everything, including the info from Afrocentrists........
However, I agree that there ARE DEFINITELY BLACK BUDDAHS in Japan. I have seen a picture of one........
As a matter of fact, I was talking to my aunt from Japan, and I told her that I think that the original Buddha was Black. She said, "Yeah, maybe so.......when I used to go to the temples in Japan, I saw Buddha depicted as dark, so maybe Buddha was Black........"
Salaam
P.S.- You still be dropping that science Mark. Keep on wit it. Your pics of Hannibal were very sharp. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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The Ancient egyptians were black, The kush ppl were black, The Nubians were black. But the Ancient chinese and indians of asia were not black but chinese and indian. There might have been african presance in those societies but minimal.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
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^ More to the point - black is a reference to skin color, not African origin.
There are Black Eurasians, Australians and Pacific Islanders.
They are just as Black as any African people, and just as Asian, Australian, and otherwise NON AFRICAN as any light skinned or white person living in Eurasia.
One might wonder if this truth is *too complicated* for some to get their minds around ???
Until this basic reality of anthropology is understood - people will continue to fall prey to the kind of anti-intellectual immaturity that calls Eskimo or the Buddha - AfriKan, and then posts dark skinned images as supposed "proof", when it is in fact utterly irrelevant to the ridiculous claim being made.
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^^Indeed, Rasol. These people are so deluded they will claim black Indians and Southeast Asians as "Afrikan" even though they carry NO African ancestry at all, yet dismiss white Europeans as totally non-African even though they do carry recent African ancestry!!
Such minds are so deluded, if they found an alien race from another planet who happened to be black, they will claim them as "Afrikans" also!! LMAOPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by multisphinx: The Ancient egyptians were black, The kush ppl were black, The Nubians were black. But the Ancient chinese and indians of asia were not black but chinese and indian. There might have been african presance in those societies but minimal.
Multi, the only African presence in India are the Siddi people who are a minuscule minority group of people descended from African slaves! There is virtually NO African presence in China at all, save a few foreign exchange students! LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Actually Djehuti i wouldnt be so quick to judge because there are actually alot of africans in Asia China & India u are right about the Siddis but they are not Slaves they are actually Ethiopians who where there since ancient times the only slave influx is during the Arabs when Malik Anbar went from Slave to King of Ahmednagar in western India. I saw a special of the last african Chinese left in China and they did a DNA test and these people are african no doubt. Clyde Winters & Marc Washington are no More Crazy than any of u other people in here who claim they know what Ancient Egyptians really look like everything is assumption everything that was said in Egyptsearch by everyone in here could be False and none of u could deny this. Dr.Clyde Winters Mr.Marc Washington u guys keep doing your thing dont worry about these haters of research im not going to put u down on your Works keep up the good work. For the whole World to Once be populated by black africans would be very hard to prove but it can be possible im not dening anything can be possible but dont put someone down because u think they are wrong.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Actually Djehuti i wouldnt be so quick to judge because there are actually alot of africans in Asia China & India u are right about the Siddis but they are not Slaves they are actually Ethiopians who where there since ancient times the only slave influx is during the Arabs when Malik Anbar went from Slave to King of Ahmednagar in western India. I saw a special of the last african Chinese left in China and they did a DNA test and these people are african no doubt.
Last time I checked, the Siddis were Ethiopian slaves trasported to India via Arab traders. They were nicknamed Abasi (Habashi).
Where is the evidence of an ancient African migration to India??
What is this "special" on African Chinese?? Can you give me the name of it?
quote:Clyde Winters & Marc Washington are no More Crazy than any of u other people in here who claim they know what Ancient Egyptians really look like everything is assumption everything that was said in Egyptsearch by everyone in here could be False and none of u could deny this.
What is so crazy about the FACT that we do know what ancient Egyptians look like?!! We have all the evidence we need in the form of their artwork as well as remains. What most of us in Egyptsearch say is NOT assumption but established FACTS based on evidence.
quote:Dr.Clyde Winters Mr.Marc Washington u guys keep doing your thing dont worry about these haters of research im not going to put u down on your Works keep up the good work. For the whole World to Once be populated by black africans would be very hard to prove but it can be possible im not dening anything can be possible but dont put someone down because u think they are wrong.
LOL No one is "hating" on Winters or March so much as laughing at them for their pseudo-scientific nonsense! ALL humans descend from black Africans but claiming that all modern black populations outside of Africa as being African is no more ridiculous than white people claiming Northeast Africans to be European on account of their features!
Hikuptah, there is alot of inaccurate, miscontrued, and false information being disseminated on the internet but folks with agendas as twisted as old racist Eurocentric whites. Do not fall for the hype!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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your wrong man. The Siddis, from what I understand, were not only slaves. They were mercenaries, and other things. I'll find the info. and post it.......
Secondly, I'm sorry to burst you guys bubble, but the original Indians, i.e. Dravidians and others, were BLACK! THat is a fact! If you don't believe me, read the Rig Veda(written by the Aryans, i.e. whites) where it describes the original inhabitants as Dasus. These Dasus are described as being Black(maybe dark, but I think Black), snub-nosed, bull-lipped, etc. Yeah, it was meant to insult the people, but we use that to our advantage because it gives us the understanding that the Indians origianlly were BLack! You got E. Indians darker than me, and I am dark-brown! How in hell they ain't Black?????????? Do your history homeboy! Krishna name means, "Black One"! Don't believe me, do your history! The ancient Greeks and early Christians used to call India "Ethiopia". India was the "Eastern Ethiopia" and Nubia(perhaps Abyssinia) was the "Western Ethiopia", only differentiated by having straight hair as opposed to wolly hair. But both groups were described as being "Burnt-skinned". Herodutos even said that the Indian's sperm is Black like their skin.........
Another Greek document mentions that Indians are the Ethiopians....Written about the 2nd century AD, this document mentions that the Southern India is basically identical to the Western Ethiopia, whereas the Northern India was identical to Egypt. The meaning is that the more south, the darker you are, and the further north, the people were lighter-skinned..........
Even Islamic sources name India as a country of Black people. Two sources real quick........Rumi, the famous Islamic poet once said, "If someone is Black like a Hindu.........". You can find that quote in his Mathnawi book of poetry........Also, Al-Jahiz also mentions that Hindus were amongst the Black race............
So in other words Jehuti, history backs the claim that India was a Black civilization. The fact is that there are still Black people there. That is a fact. And hey, I already conceded the fact that the Aryans were white, cause they were. So why is it so easy for people to believe that the Aryan invaders that came to India were white, yet it is so hard to believe the truth that the original inhabitants of India, i.e. Dravidians and others, were Black??????????????
I've got pictures from Thomas Merton's Asian journal, where the two picturs of Krishna show he depicted as Jet-Black skinned! This is common knowledge. I don't know as much about Linguishtics, etc., i.e. the stuff you guys know. But, I am pretty solid in what I know about India. Do your homework before you reject what is true.....
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:LOL No one is "hating" on Winters or March so much as laughing at them for their pseudo-scientific nonsense! ALL humans descend from black Africans but claiming that all modern black populations outside of Africa as being African is no more ridiculous than white people claiming Northeast Africans to be European on account of their features!
Correct. Evidently your point is taken since the NON responses to it, evade with non-sequitur that Dravidians and 1st Indians were Black - which of course is true, but is not the point at issue.
By definition the 1st Indians are the INDIGENEOUS Indians, and therefore certainly not 'Africans', Europeans, caucasians negroes or anything else - THEY ARE INDIANS. They are therefore NON AFRICAN in the only sense in which any human beings can be - they have little to no African ancestry in the last 50 to 80 thousand years.
Why is this hard to grasp?
This forum sometimes seems to be in a losing battle with perpetual and self perpetuating ignorance.
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The Siddhis were kidnapped Africans who rose above their status and became warriors associaed with certain groups. They integrated into the society at large but here are still unmixed groups.
The ancient world knew Hinduland as blacks along with Arab sources but again intepretation and social staus overtime redefined a cetain section of the country (North vs South).
it beez like dat!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Djehuti & Yazid u guys have come up with the conclusion that siddis were slaves taken from Ethiopia to India via Arabia u are right but u have not finished do u know of the many water wars the Ethiopians & Indians have had with boats in the Indian Ocean they both use to take prisoners of war indians to Ethiopia and ethiopians to India do u know of the long history of trade between these people as well as the Ethiopians with the Chinese & Southern Arabia. There is actually a book about the Ethiopian & Indian wars in the Indian Ocean in ancient times it is actually written by a Indian. I think i have mention this before blackskin color does not mean African let me say it again the blackskin color does not belong to Africa only i have seen darkskinned people of every race on every continent except Europe.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ethiopians & Indians have had with boats in the Indian Ocean they both use to take prisoners of war indians to Ethiopia and ethiopians to India do u know of the long history of trade between these people as well as the Ethiopians with the Chinese & Southern Arabia.
You are right Ethiopians have had very intimate relations with Indians. In fact the Ethiopians ruled much of India. These Ethiopians were called Naga. It was the Naga who created Sanskrit.
A reading of ancient Dravidian literature which dates back to 500 BC, gives us considerable information on the Naga. In Indian tradition the Naga won central India from the Villavar (bowmen) and Minavar (fishermen). The Naga were great seamen who ruled much of India, Sri Lanka and Burma. To the Aryans they described as half man and snake. The Tamil knew them as warlike people who used the bow and noose.
The earliest mention of the Naga, appear in the Ramayana , they are also mentioned in the Mahabharata. In the Mahabharata we discover that the Naga had the capital city in the Dekkan, and other cities spread between thhe Jumna and Ganges as early as 1300 BC. The Dravidian classic, the Chilappathikaran made it clear that the first great kingdom of India was Naganadu.
The Naga probably came from Kush-Punt/Ethiopia. The Puntites were the greatest sailors of the ancient world. In the Egyptian inscriptions there is mention of the Puntite ports of Outculit, Hamesu and Tekaru, which corresponds to Adulis, Hamasen and Tigre.
In Sumerian text, it is claimed that the Puntites traded with the people of the Indus Valley or Dilmun. According to S.N. Kramer in The Sumerians, part of Punt was probably called Meluhha, and Dilmun was probably the ancient name of the Indus Valley. (Today some scholars maintain that Oman, where we find no ancient cities was Dilmun and the Indus Valley may have been Meluhha).
Ancient Ethiopian traditions support the rule of Puntites or Ethiopians of India. In the Kebra Nagast, we find mention of the Arwe kings who ruled India. The founder of the dynasty was Za Besi Angabo. This dynasty according to the Kebra Nagast began around 1370 BC. These rulers of India and Ethiopia were called Nagas. The Kebra Nagast claims that " Queen Makeda "had servants and merchants; they traded for her at sea and on land in the Indies and Aswan". It also says that her son Ebna Hakim or Menelik I, made a campaign in the Indian Sea; the king of India made gifts and donations and prostrated himself before him". It is also said that Menalik ruled an empire that extended from the rivers of Egypt (Blue Nile) to the west and from the south Shoa to eastern India", according to the Kebra Nagast. The Kebra Nagast identification of an eastern Indian empre ruled by the Naga, corresponds to the Naga colonies in the Dekkan, and on the East coast between the Kaviri and Vaigai rivers.
The presence of Meluhhaites/ Puntites in India may expain the Greek tradition of Kusites ruling India up to the Ganges. It would also explain the Aryan traditions of Mlechchas ( Sanskrit name for some of the non-Aryan people) as one of the aboriginal groups of India. Many scholars associate the name Mlechchas with Meluhha.
The major Naga tribes were the Maravar, Eyinar, Oliyar, Oviyar, Aru-Valur and Parathavar. The Nagas resisted the invansion of the Cholas . In the Kalittokai IV,1-5, the Naga are described as being "of strong limbs and hardy frames and fierce looking tigers wearing long and curled locks of hair." The Naga kings of Sri Lanka are mentioned in the: Mahawanso, and are said to have later become Dravidians, as testified to by the names of these people: Naganathan, Nagaratnam, Nagaraja and etc.
The major gift of the Naga to India was the writing system: Nagari. Nagari is the name for the Sanskrit script. Over a hundred years ago Sir William Jones, pointed out that the ancient Ethiopic and Sanskrit writing are one and the same.
William Jones, explained that the Ethiopian origin of Sanskrit was supported by the fact that both writing systems the writing went from left to right and the vowels were annexed to the consonants. Today Eurocentric scholars teach that the Indians taught writing to the Ethiopians, yet the name Nagari for Sanskrit betrays the Ethiopia origin of this form of writing. Moreover, it is interesting to note that Sanskrit vowels: a,aa,',I,u,e,o, virama etc., are in the same order as Geez.
The Ethiopian script has influenced many other writing systems. Y.M. Kobishnor, in the Unesco History of Africa, maintains that Ethiopic was used as the model for Armenian writing, as was many of the Transcaucasian scripts. Dravidian literature indicate that the Naga may have introduced worship of Kali, the Serpent, Murugan and the Sun or Krishna. It is interesting to note that a god called Murugan is worshipped by many people in East Africa.
It is interesting that Krishna, who was associated with the Sun, means Black, this is analogous to the meaning of Khons of the Kushites. Homer, described Hercules asfollows: "Black he stood as night his bow uncased, his arrow string for flight". This mention of arrows identifies the Kushites as warriors who used the bow, a common weapon of the Kushites and the Naga. Kumarinadu
The Naga or Ethiopians were defeated by Dravidian speaking people from Kumarinadu. Kamarinadu is suppose to have formerly existed as a large Island in the India ocean which connected India with East Africa. This landmass is mentioned in the Silappadikaram, which said that Kamarinadu was made up of seven nadus or regions. The Dravidian scholars Adiyarkunallar and Nachinaar wrote about the ancient principalities of Tamilaham, which existed on Kamarinadu.
Kumarinadu was ruled by the Pandyans/Pandians at Madurai before it sunk beneath the sea. The greatest king of Kumarinadu was Sengoon. According to Dravidian scholars the Pandyans worshipped the goddess Kumari Amman. This Amman, probably corresponds to the ancient god Amon of the Kushites. The Kalittokai 104, makes it clear that after the Pandyans were forced to migrate off their Island home into South India, "to compensate for the area lost to the great waves of the sea, King Pandia without tiresome moved to the other countries and won them. Removing the emblems of tiger (Cholas) and bow (Cheras) he, in their place inscribed his reputed emblem fish (Pandia's) and valiantly made his enemies bow to him".
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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That was great Mr.Winters but one thing i wanted to ask u Mr.Winters why do the names that are in Meroitic Sudan all seem similar to the way they are in india like for instance the long names like Adiyarkunallar u were telling me of the similarities between Meroitic & Dravidian languages how is this so i need more information please
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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I can not say that all of the names of the Meroites and Dravidian speaking people are similar. But what I will say is that since both these groups were Kushites, via their origin as members of the C-Group culture, their will be similarities.
Werner Vycihle (1957) has provided us with many lexical items relating to the Sudanese. The people of Upper Nubia and the Sudan were known in Egyptian as k-'-s and k-'-s-i . The Hebrew people called the Kushites kus. In the cuneiform inscriptions the Sudanese were called Kusiya. In the Ethiopic inscriptions Ezana the Kushites were called Kashi or Kasu. In Sumerian the Kushites were called Melukha = Kasi and Kasi = Kush.
Following the Egyptian and other ancient peoples the classical scholars also called the Sudanese: Ethiopians or Kushites. The classical scholars made it clear that the Kushites lived not only in Africa but also Asia. Homer alluded to the two Kushite empires when he wrote "A race divided, whom the sloping rays; the rising and the setting sun surveys". Herodotus (L.xii;C.lxx.) said that there two Ethiopias. The Roman Strabo also claimed that there were two Ethiopias.
The countries of Bactria, Afghanistan, Georgia, ancient Elam and Beluchistan were called Kush . The Armenian historians always named the eastern Parthians Kushan. The people living there called themselves Kushana , Kuisa or Kusa . Moses Chorene (/Xorenac'i) in Patmut'iwn Hayoc' (Venice,1881) claimed that the four divisions of Persia: Media, Elymais, Aria, and etc. as Kush. C. B. Rawlinson in "Notes on the Early History of Babylonia", Journal Royal Asiatic Society, 15, pp. 221-222 discussed the unity of Ethiopians in Asia and Africa.
This would explain the statement by Philostratus in Life of Appollonius and Jerom, that the Gymnosophists of Kush, who settled near the source of the Nile, descended from the Brahmins of India, having been forced to migrate after the murder of their king. Eustathius, also said that the Kushites (Meroites) came from India. We can also be sure that the Kushan were known in northeast Africa because a horde of Kushan coins were found in the floor of a cave at the present monastery-shrine at Debra Demo in modern Ethiopia in 1940.
Flavius Philostratus, the writer of the Vita Apollonii, Vol. 1,claimed that the Gymnosophists of Meroe originally came from India (see F.C. Conybeare, Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (p.45),1950). Given the fact that the Kushana had formerly ruled India around the time that the Meroitic writing was introduced to the Kushite civilization, lead to the hypothesis that the ancestors of the Gymnosophist may have been Kushana philosophers. The historical evidence of the Kushana having ruled India made the Classical references to Indians in Meroe, an important source for the construction of alternative theories about the possible location of the cognate language of Meroitic.
There is external evidence, which supports my theory. A theory explains observed phenomena and has predictive power. I have theorized that due to the claims of the Classical writers that some of the Meroites came from India (F.C Conybeare (Trans.), Philostratus: The life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol.2, (1950) pg.271).
According to the Life of Apollonius, the Indian Meroites were formerly led by a King Ganges, who had "repulsed the Scythians who invaded this land [India from] across the Caucasus" (Conybeare, Vol.1, Pg.273). Pilostratus also made it clear that the Indians of Meroe came to this country after their king was killed.
The presence of this tradition of an Indian King of the Indian-Meroites conquering the Scythians predicts that the Indian literature should record this historical episode. This prediction is supported by a Jaina text called the Kalakeharya-Kathanaka, which reports that when the Scythians invaded Malwa, the King of Malwa,called Vikramaditya defeated the Scythians (H. Kulke & D. Rothermund, History of India (London, Routledge: 1990, pg.73).
This king Vikramaditya may be the Ganges mentioned in the Life of Apollonius.Confirmation of the Ganges story, supports the Classical literary evidence that there were Indianized-Meroites that could have introduced the Tocharian trade language to the Meroites. Moreover, there were other Indians in North Africa in addition to Kush/Meroe. For example, at Quseir al-Qadim there was a large Indian speaking community (see: R. Salomon, Epigraphic remains of Indian traders in Egypt", Journal of the American oriental Society, (1991) pp.731-736; and R. Salomon, Addenda, Journal of the American Oriental Society, (1993) pg.593). These Indians were in Egypt writing messages in their language, around the time we see a switch from Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Meroitic writing system.
The evidence that the Classical references to an Indian-Meroite The Indian supports King who conquered the Scythians literature, provides external corroboration of the tradition that some of the Meroites were of Indian origin.
The fact that the Dravidian speaking people were members of the C-Group and mebers of this group later migrated back to the Sudan after the fall of the Kushan king may explain the cognition between Meroite and Dravidian names.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Winters writes: The Naga probably came from Kush-Punt/Ethiopia.
We discussed this before on Egyptsearch.
Unfortuntately none of Mr. Winters cut and paste paragraphs, consisting of speculation, leaps of logic, and non-sequitur's actually supports his contentions.
The entertaining aspect of this - is to note which readers are descerning enough to detect this, and which....simply swallow hook line and sinker without noticing that nothing has actually been substantiated.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Rasol your envy of Mr. winters is so Obvious.
Mr Clyde Winters so would u consider the Ethiopians & Eritreans to be Kushites i see more similarities between the looks dress hair styles of Ethiopians & people of India. Did Kush ever include Northern Ethiopia or NOrthern Eritea it is really close from Eritrea to Northern sudan and both Eritrea & Sudan all have the exact same tribes for instance the Beja of Southern Egypt Northern Sudan and Northern ERitrea really come from Ethiopia. I wanted to ask u if there was any information of Ori the first king of Eygpt the ethiopians claim him to be there first king
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mr Clyde Winters so would u consider the Ethiopians & Eritreans to be Kushites i see more similarities between the looks dress hair styles of Ethiopians & people of India. Did Kush ever include Northern Ethiopia or NOrthern Eritea it is really close from Eritrea to Northern sudan and both Eritrea & Sudan all have the exact same tribes for instance the Beja of Southern Egypt Northern Sudan and Northern ERitrea really come from Ethiopia. I wanted to ask u if there was any information of Ori the first king of Eygpt the ethiopians claim him to be there first king
Kush never included modern Ethiopia or Eritrea. These parts of Africa were usually referred too as Meluhha and Punt. The Beja were probably Mehuhhaites they have over the centuries progressively move southward.
I can't comment on King Ori, but the Egyptians did recognize Punt: "modern Ethiopia, Eritrea and etc", as the ancestral homeland of some Egyptians.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Rasol your envy of Mr. winters is so Obvious.
Theophille Obenga is "jealous."
Rasol is "envious."
Excuses are plentiful.
And evidence apparently hard to come by.
Unfortunately responding to questionings with ad-hominem attacks on "motivations of others" is invalid, and just another trademark fallacy of pseudoscience.
Linguistic pseudoscience - complains that criticism of its theories are motivated by traditionalism, ideological factors or conspiracy on behalf of the linguistic community.
The need to make excuses simply highlights the obvious inability to substantiate. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't know why Rasol would be envious of Dr. Winters. Dr. Winters makes alot of hard to accept claims. Africans had nothing to do with the Indian people. I admit that both Africans and Indians are Black people but this stuff about Indians being closely related to Africans is hard to believe since Indians are different Genetically. Dr. Winters needs real proof before people are going to believe what he is saying.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: I don't know why Rasol would be envious of Dr. Winters. Dr. Winters makes alot of hard to accept claims. Africans had nothing to do with the Indian people. I admit that both Africans and Indians are Black people but this stuff about Indians being closely related to Africans is hard to believe since Indians are different Genetically. Dr. Winters needs real proof before people are going to believe what he is saying.
Peace
It is quite interesting that you do not believe that the Dravidians and Africans are related when many Dravidian scholar accept this reality. Below is a list of papers written by Dravidians and others discussing this theme posted earlier on ES.
quote:Originally posted by KING: this stuff about Indians being closely related to Africans is hard to believe since Indians are different genetically.
This is correct King, and of course Winters knows this. The Dravidian bloodline is fundamentally Eurasian, and non African.
His 'essay references' are simply irrelevant to this fact.
quote:Dr. Winters needs real proof before people are going to believe what he is saying.
There simply isn't any. One can't provide what does not exist.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Archaeological Institute of America July 10th article:
What's the early literary evidence for foreigners in China?
Among other texts, the official histories, including Records of the Scribe (Shi ji) and History of the Han (Han shu) have numerous references to individuals from the "western regions" with large noses, deep-socketed eyes, and full beards. These persons are generally called hu, which is loosely translated as "barbarian," but there are many specific names for different groups as well.
My question?
Who were the so called Hu people of this time in China? Where did they come from?
posted
According to ethnological materials, all the ethnic groups in the northern grassland regions of ancient China were called "Hu." History of the Han Dynasty says: "The Great Han is in the south, while the strong Hu in the north." Ci Hai, a lexicographical work, describes the following as Hu people:
Xiongnu (or Huns) people were called Hu or Beihu (Northern Hu).
The people of Wuhuan, and Xianbei, etc. were called Donghu (Eastern Hu).
As the ethnic groups inhabiting the Western Regions were to the west of the Xiongnu, they were generally called Xihu (Western Wu).
Rouran people originated from Nanxiongnu (Southern Xiongnu); Shanhu also originated from Nanxiongnu.
Qidan people originated from Donghu.
Linhu members were distributed in what is presentday Inner Mongol ever since the Warring States Period (475-221 BC).
Huhu people were distributed in the present-day Xinjiang.
Jihu people originated from Nanxiongnu.
Lushuihu people were a branch of Nanxiongnu.
Xiao-yueshi people were called “Yueshi-hu along the Huangshui River.”
From this citation we may know that nearly all the so-called "Hu people" were ancient ethnic groups distributed in the present-day Northeast China, InnerMongolia, Gansu, Qinghai and Xinjiang. We call these ancient ethnic groups "Hu people."
quote: I don't know why Rasol would be envious of Dr. Winters. Dr. Winters makes alot of hard to accept claims. Africans had nothing to do with the Indian people. I admit that both Africans and Indians are Black people but this stuff about Indians being closely related to Africans is hard to believe since Indians are different Genetically. Dr. Winters needs real proof before people are going to believe what he is saying.
Peace
It is quite interesting that you do not believe that the Dravidians and Africans are related when many Dravidian scholar accept this reality. Below is a list of papers written by Dravidians and others discussing this theme posted earlier on ES.
I don't know about this China stuff. But like I've said, I do believe India and Africa share a connection. Just like East Africa and the Middle East does. Rasol and Djehuti are always the first to jump on anyone that says otherwise.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Such minds are so deluded, if they found an alien race from another planet who happened to be black, they will claim them as "Afrikans" also!! LMAO
Indeed.
Like commander Tuvok here, a member of an "Afrikan" race of the Vulcan species descended from Ancient Kushites who mastered the art of space travel and colonized planet Vulcan.
You would think that professor Winters and the like would understand by now that dark skin, broad features and curly hair among various populations in no way makes the various peoples of the world related to Africans, linguistically, culturally, biologically or otherwise.
All humans are descended from Africans. Features among the various people that are identified with "Negroids" does not make those people African, it only means that they have retained tropical adaptations in some compacity just as the ficitonal Vulcans with commander Tuvok's appearance would be attributed to the tropical climates of Vulcan and not a relationship with Africa.
And as for Marc Washington, as impressed as I am with his artistic and literary abilities I find it disturbing that he would try to associate the appearance of Tengu masks (mythological creatures that are likened to mountain dwelling monsters and demons in Japanese culture) with Black people. Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Such minds are so deluded, if they found an alien race from another planet who happened to be black, they will claim them as "Afrikans" also!! LMAO
Indeed.
Like commander Tuvok here, a member of an "Afrikan" race of the Vulcan species descended from Ancient Kushites who mastered the art of space travel and colonized planet Vulcan.
Dude is Chinese I tell you! Like Mandela....Chiiineeeesssse! Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:You would think that professor Winters and the like would understand by now that dark skin, broad features and curly hair among various populations in no way makes the various peoples of the world related to Africans, linguistically, culturally, biologically or otherwise.
Seriously, the underlying point to be taken is that different facial and skin color features are not racial.
Every attempt to make these features racial leads inexorably to massive stereotyping and rationalisations for forcing diverse human populations back into racial preconceptions.
This never works.
The people of the world do not fit into neat racial stereotypes.
They never have, and they never will.
All African scholars will greatly enhance our credibility level and effectiveness upon understanding this, and reflecting this reality in our studies and writings. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Mr.Winters u said that the Beja were called Muluhha and u said that they eventually moved southward but i thought that the Beja's Home was in present day Eritrea i have many friends from eritrea who are Beja and they look no different from the Tigre Tigrinia Hedareb people of Eritrea there is even evidence of them in Aksum's kingdom they were considered no different from the people of highland eritrea & ethiopia there is even a tribe of beja's who speak Tigrinia. To say that Ethiopia had nothing to do with kush is like saying africans have nothing to do with Egypt.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Mr.Winters u said that the Beja were called Muluhha and u said that they eventually moved southward but i thought that the Beja's Home was in present day Eritrea i have many friends from eritrea who are Beja and they look no different from the Tigre Tigrinia Hedareb people of Eritrea there is even evidence of them in Aksum's kingdom they were considered no different from the people of highland eritrea & ethiopia there is even a tribe of beja's who speak Tigrinia. To say that Ethiopia had nothing to do with kush is like saying africans have nothing to do with Egypt.
Hi You are correct that the Beja did influence the Kushites but the historical facts make it clear that they entered the area from the north.
Many researchers believe the Beja may have been the Blemmyes. The Blemmyes and the Nobatai were in constant confliect with the Kushites and each other. During the later period of Kushite history the Blemmyes ruled Northern Nubia. You can find out more about theis period in the following article:
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I don't know about this China stuff. But like I've said, I do believe India and Africa share a connection. Just like East Africa and the Middle East does. Rasol and Djehuti are always the first to jump on anyone that says otherwise.
Of course Africa shares a connection with the 'Middle East' as substantiated by Afrasian languages spoken there as well as Egyptian-Levantine and Ethiopian-South Arabian relations from prehistoric times down through historical times.
But where is the evidence that substantiates an Indian-African connection prior to the Medieval Times??
Why do you support African-Indian connections but not African-Chinese connections even though your teacher Dr. Winters support that much also??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Such minds are so deluded, if they found an alien race from another planet who happened to be black, they will claim them as "Afrikans" also!! LMAO
Indeed.
Like commander Tuvok here, a member of an "Afrikan" race of the Vulcan species descended from Ancient Kushites who mastered the art of space travel and colonized planet Vulcan.
You would think that professor Winters and the like would understand by now that dark skin, broad features and curly hair among various populations in no way makes the various peoples of the world related to Africans, linguistically, culturally, biologically or otherwise.
All humans are descended from Africans. Features among the various people that are identified with "Negroids" does not make those people African, it only means that they have retained tropical adaptations in some compacity just as the ficitonal Vulcans with commander Tuvok's appearance would be attributed to the tropical climates of Vulcan and not a relationship with Africa.
And as for Marc Washington, as impressed as I am with his artistic and literary abilities I find it disturbing that he would try to associate the appearance of Tengu masks (mythological creatures that are likened to mountain dwelling monsters and demons in Japanese culture) with Black people.
ROTFLH
Oh God, Musa you hit the 'marc' even with the Tengu part!!
No doubt if it had features like broad noses, Marc would even use Oni (Japanese troll or ogre) masks to demonstrate his point about an 'Afrikan' presence in East Asia!! LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: Africans formed the substratum of civilizations worldwide. By African, I mean, in addition to negritoes and steatophygous females and those Africans with straight hair (reflecting past racial mixing), Africans are also individuals with some combination of a round nose and mouth fuller than and hair woolier than 98% of whites and Asians.
^^Of course those posters in this forum whose minds are not deluded can see as plain as day the contradiction in Marc's statements.
Marc's own personal definition of "African" contradicts the original and mainstream definition.
adj: Of or relating to Africa or its peoples, languages, or cultures.
n: 1. A native or inhabitant of Africa 2. A person of African descent.
Notice, the definition said nothing about features such as skin color, nose shape, or hair texture.
Why? Because Marc's description of what an African looks like has nothing to do with Africa and therefore is not African!
Notice that in his last sentence he makes a contrast or distiction between his "Africans" and Asians. So what do you call populations in Asia who meet that definition?? Why are they African and not Asian even though they have lived in Asia just as long (actually longer) than his definition of 'Asians'??
"Pseudoscientists invent their own vocabulary in which terms lack precise or unambiguous definitions, and some have no definition at all."
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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