quote:We evaluate the correspondence between the newly defined subhaplogroups and the E-M78 haplotype clusters......caution is needed when using the microsatellite alleles as surrogates of unique event polymorphisms.
quote:We evaluate the correspondence between the newly defined subhaplogroups and the E-M78 haplotype clusters......caution is needed when using the microsatellite alleles as surrogates of unique event polymorphisms.
Absolutely.
Good link.
You didn't bother to read the entire paper did you? How's this:
Now how many of the cluster a chromosones belong to the African specific clusters? In the issue of fairness so as not to catch myself in a fallacious argument, I will post the study to my yahoo group for all to view since witholding information is a fallacy in itself.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Now how many of the cluster a chromosones belong to the African specific clusters?
It's "chromosomes:, and it's and example of begging a question in order to ignore and answer that you evidently don't like:
caution is needed when using the microsatellite alleles [clusters] as surrogates of unique event polymorphisms. [clades] Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I thought E3b evolved in Africa, what gives?
Y-DNA haplogroup E probably arose in Northeast Africa and expanded into the Near and Middle East. Today E* is found predominantly in Ethiopia. E1 and E2 are found in Northeast Africa, but surveys show E1 may actually be more prevalent in Mali than in its presumed region of origin. E4 is a minor subclade. E3 is by far the lineage of greatest geographical distribution. It has two important sub-lineages, E3a and E3b. E3a is an African lineage that probably expanded from northern Africa to sub-Saharan and equatorial Africa with the Bantu agricultural expansion. E3a is the most common lineage among African Americans. E3b probably evolved either in Northeast Africa or the Near East and then expanded to the west both north and south of the Mediterranean Sea. E3b clusters are seen today in Western Europe, the Balkans, the Near East, Northeast Africa and Northwest Africa. The Cruciani articles (references and links below) are indispensable resources for understanding the structure of this complicated haplogroup.
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posted
Basically, this revelation is a step towards further differentiation of presumably, perviously 'undifferentiated' subhaplogroups within the M35 paragroup. The UEPs listed here, are apparently seen by the researchers who studied them, as having close ties with the M78 derivative of M35; to be more precise, each of these UEPs are considered to have split from M78 at some point in time. Some of these derivatives appear to share tandem repeat allele motifs with already identified M78 clusters known by the terms "delta", "beta", "gamma", "alpha", while others exhibit microsatellite alleles/motifs that are yet to be classified - hence, those clusters are at this time placed under the " not classified" in the table.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Now how many of the cluster a chromosones belong to the African specific clusters?
It's "chromosomes:, and it's and example of begging a question in order to ignore and answer that you evidently don't like:
caution is needed when using the microsatellite alleles [clusters] as surrogates of unique event polymorphisms. [clades]
Um, my argument was never to say that clusters are UEPs, don't put words in my mouth. My argument has and still is that E3b1 is not a signature or marker of African ancestry exclusively.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Basically, this revelation is a step towards further differentiation of presumably, perviously 'undifferentiated' subhaplogroups within the M35 paragroup. The UEPs listed here, are apparently seen by the researchers who studied them, as having close ties with the M78 derivative of M35; to be more precise, each of these UEPs are considered to have split from M78 at some point in time. Some of these derivatives appear to share tandem repeat allele motifs with already identified M78 clusters known by the terms "delta", "beta", "gamma", "alpha", while others exhibit microsatellite alleles/motifs that are yet to be classified - hence, those clusters are at this time placed under the " not classified" in the table.
^ This is clear:
Coalescence ages for the well-defined E-M78 clusters alpha, beta and gamma here analyzed have been estimated and reported to be relatively old (in the range of 3.2-12.9 ky, including 95% CIs) (Cruciani et al., 2004).
There is a striking correspondence between the microsatellite clusters alpha and gamma and the binary haplogroups EV13 and E-V32, respectively.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:My argument has and still is that E3b1 is not a signature or marker of African ancestry exclusively.
Your argument was and still is, complete nonsense.
Here is a clear statement from your source:
E3b1-M78 is African. - Cruciani.
I see you're still taking bits and pieces of what you wish to see and here and ignoring the rest while simultaneously distorting Cruciani's words. Neither Cruciani nor Underhill believe that E3b1 is a catch-all marker for African ancestry, why you keep ignoring this I don't know why. I'm not here to argue about *YOUR* points I just post what the experts say and kep it moving.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Cruciani's real words, not rasol's bit and piece act:
"[b ]We believe that cluster alfa chromosomes come from the Near East[/b], but, in turn, M78 chromosomes are of african origin, so you can imagine a two steps migration: from Africa to the Middle east and from the Middle east to the Europe."
If anyone looks at the distance plots on those graphs I posted earlier in this thread one can see exactly where and whom Europeans cluster closest to and its in complete agreement with that bold part of what Cruciani said. I'm not the one distorting people's words and cherry-picking.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Basically, this revelation is a step towards further differentiation of presumably, perviously 'undifferentiated' subhaplogroups within the M35 paragroup. The UEPs listed here, are apparently seen by the researchers who studied them, as having close ties with the M78 derivative of M35; to be more precise, each of these UEPs are considered to have split from M78 at some point in time. Some of these derivatives appear to share tandem repeat allele motifs with already identified M78 clusters known by the terms "delta", "beta", "gamma", "alpha", while others exhibit microsatellite alleles/motifs that are yet to be classified - hence, those clusters are at this time placed under the " not classified" in the table.
^ This is clear:
Coalescence ages for the well-defined E-M78 clusters alpha, beta and gamma here analyzed have been estimated and reported to be relatively old (in the range of 3.2-12.9 ky, including 95% CIs) (Cruciani et al., 2004).
There is a striking correspondence between the microsatellite clusters alpha and gamma and the binary haplogroups EV13 and E-V32, respectively.
Cherry-picking again I see, why not post the text after that sentence:
However, while all cluster α chromosomes belong to E-V13, some of the E-V13 chromosomes are not contained in such a cluster. Conversely, all of the E-V32 chromosomes fall within cluster γ (defined by the rare DYS19 11-repeat allele), but two γ chromosomes are members of paragroups E-V12* and E-M78*.
Taking into account the above data, the previously described European cluster α and the northern African cluster β are indeed confirmed as monophyletic groups of chromosomes, that, very likely, have their own defining binary marker yet to be discovered. Cluster α chromosomes constitute a major branch of the binary haplogroup V13, which, in turn, includes also a few, highly differentiated chromosomes - previously classified either in cluster δ or unclassified. All 29 chromosomes within cluster β belong to the paragroup E-M78*, which is relatively rare and almost exclusively restricted to a single geographic region (i.e. northern Africa), thus a common origin for at least a large part of these is likely.
Now keep in mind those quots with this
[img] http/i7.tinypic.com/20z4ayq.jpg [/img]
And it becomes clear what Cruciani is saying when talks about a close correspondence between alpha and gamma.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: M78 chromosomes are of african origin, so you can imagine a two steps migration: from Africa to the Middle east and from the Middle east to Europe
Correct. That is our position. You've failed to refute it.
"Your position", that E3b M78 is not always African, is in direct contradition to Cruciani, and common sense. And you know this. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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That fact is not in dispute by *any reputable geneticist.*
quote:Supercar writes: Correct. This status quo remains unaffected.
Being that E3b1 is a single event marker that originated in Black Africa among the direct ancestors of the Somali, Oromo and Borana, this is never going to change.
Nor is fact that these Black Africans migrated to Eurasia and that consequently *southern Europeans continue to carry their E3b1 blood lineage* to this day, going to ever go away.
This is why people who can't accept this truth, attempt to distract from it, but never actually refute anything.
Microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin for E3b1
"Furthermore, the results are in agreement with gene flow from Eastern to Northern Africa from a homeland in Somalia" - - Semino
Since the E3b lineages appear to be confined mostly to the Sub-Saharan populations, initial migrations toward North Africa FROM THE SOUTH primarily involved derivative E3b lineages. These include E3b1-M78 - Luis
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup - Sanchez Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: M78 chromosomes are of african origin, so you can imagine a two steps migration: from Africa to the Middle east and from the Middle east to Europe
Correct. That is our position. You've failed to refute it.
"Your position", that E3b M78 is not always African, is in direct contradition to Cruciani, and common sense. And you know this.
Don't distort my position, my position is that not all of the chromosones under the M78 network constitute markers of African ancestry nor do they denote migrations of black Africans in all the areas they are found. Underived E3b1 is African but alpha chromosone under the M78 network are *NOT* African, end of story. Looking strictly at underived E3b1-M78 and ignoring the other chromosones under the network is cherry picking and misleading.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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Basically, this revelation is a step towards further differentiation of presumably, perviously 'undifferentiated' subhaplogroups within the M35 paragroup. The UEPs listed here, are apparently seen by the researchers who studied them, as having close ties with the M78 derivative of M35; to be more precise, each of these UEPs are considered to have split from M78 at some point in time. Some of these derivatives appear to share tandem repeat allele motifs with already identified M78 clusters known by the terms "delta", "beta", "gamma", "alpha", while others exhibit microsatellite alleles/motifs that are yet to be classified - hence, those clusters are at this time placed under the " not classified" in the table.
^ This is clear:
Coalescence ages for the well-defined E-M78 clusters alpha, beta and gamma here analyzed have been estimated and reported to be relatively old (in the range of 3.2-12.9 ky, including 95% CIs) (Cruciani et al., 2004).
There is a striking correspondence between the microsatellite clusters alpha and gamma and the binary haplogroups EV13 and E-V32, respectively.[/i]
The excerpt in the above citation, is perhaps followed by this one:
However, while all cluster α chromosomes belong to E-V13, some of the E-V13 chromosomes are not contained in such a cluster. Conversely, all of the E-V32 chromosomes fall within cluster γ (defined by the rare DYS19 11-repeat allele), but two γ chromosomes are members of paragroups E-V12* and E-M78*…
Finally, although there is a strong correspondence between cluster gamma - defined by the rare DYS19 11- repeat allele - and haplography E-V32, the presence, in cluster gamma, of heliotypes belonging to the binary paragroups E-M78* and E-V12* can only be explained by admitting either a prophylactic or a polyphyletic origin for the chromosomes in the cluster.
That micro-satellite motifs can be shared across subclades [not clusters] or chromosomes bearing different UEPs [as trmca], as exemplified in the citation right above, should serve as another eye-opener in realizing that clusters don’t affect the most recent shared ancestry (clade) in question. Hence, as an example, chromosomes bearing the M78 mutation as trmca, regardless of their being alpha, beta, and so forth cluster chromosomes, share a single recent common ancestor - a tropical African male; the M78 mutation simply denotes that African ancestry. Once this is understood, so does the following excerpt [as posted earlier] become clear:
caution is needed when using the microsatellite alleles [clusters] as surrogates of unique event polymorphisms. [clades]
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Nothing changes the fact that not all of the clusters and chromosones under the M78 network are African, some are non-African in origin. Ignoring this and concentrating solely on M78 is simply distorting facts.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Finally, although there is a strong correspondence between cluster gamma - defined by the rare DYS19 11- repeat allele - and haplography E-V32, the presence, in cluster gamma, of heliotypes belonging to the binary paragroups E-M78* and E-V12* can only be explained by admitting either a prophylactic or a polyphyletic origin for the chromosomes in the cluster.
Distortion, it should have read paraphyletic.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: Nothing changes the fact that not all of the clusters and chromosones under the M78 network
Of course the above statement is completely false.
M78 is not a network.
M78 does not have a polygenetic origin.
M78 is unique SNP marker, a unique event mutation with *by definition* a single African origin - period.
Your attempts to run away from this fact are utterly hopeless.
quote:concentrating solely on M78 is simply distorting facts.
Concentrating soley on M78 is crucial to honest and accurate assessment of the origin of M78, which is the issue at hand.
Desparately trying to change the the subject from M78 in order to deny that M78 is African, is simply another futile attempt to distract, in lieu of the ability to actually debate..well, anything.
Here's a last chance for you Charles [X-breed]:
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. - Sanchez
^ Refute it, right now.
Or suffer yet another E3b defeat.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
That micro-satellite motifs can be shared across subclades [not clusters] or chromosomes bearing different UEPs [as trmca], as exemplified in the citation right above,
Exactly, this has been explained before.
Clusters can be found in distinct clades.
Clades can be divided into many clusters.
A clade is formal subdivision in genetics defining a singulare line of ancestry.
A cluster is loose collection of tandom repeats that may or may not be associated with clades, or cross clade boundaries altogether.
[quote]SuperCar: bearing the M78 mutation as trmca, regardless of their being alpha, beta, and so forth cluster chromosomes, share a single recent common ancestor - a tropical African male[quote]
This is correct, and will remain unrefuted, and effectively not distracted from either, as long as there are intelligent discuassants such as yourself in these threads. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: Nothing changes the fact that not all of the clusters and chromosones under the M78 network
Of course the above statement is completely false.
M78 is not a network.
M78 does not have a polygenetic origin.
M78 is unique SNP marker, a unique event mutation with *by definition* a single African origin - period.
Your attempts to run away from this fact are utterly hopeless.
M78-only and ignore the rest is your argument. I have not denied any African origin for E-M78 so please quit coming up with strawman arguments. The clusters all have member ship in different UEPs, you saw that for yourself,ie, V-12, V-32, etc, which are simply sub-haplogroups under M78, Cruciani's paper details this.
quote:]Concentrating soley on M78 is crucial to honest and accurate assessment of the origin of M78, which is the issue at hand.
Concentrating solely on M78 is wrong and misleading because as you can from the paper its branches are deep and diverse, some of which are even unclassified. Concentrating solely on M78 hides this. The alpha cluster in particular is monophyletic and doesn't have an African origin so the presence of alpha cluster chromosones in Europe is *NOT* proof of an African migration into Europe, stop tapdancing around this issue, you've seen even Underhill support my side by stating that E3b1 is not a marker of African ancestry exclusively.
quote:Desparately trying to change the the subject from M78 in order to deny that M78 is African, is simply another futile attempt to distract, in lieu of the ability to actually debate..well, anything.
Again this is another annoying strawman argument because *NO ONE* and I repeat *NO ONE* has denied that M78 is African so quit putting words and positions in my mouth I haven't taken.
quote:Here's a last chance for you Charles [X-breed]:
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. - Sanchez
Somalis are mostly gamma and E3b1* and chromosones under the gamma cluster aren't found in Europe so where's your proof of black Africans bringing alpha chromosones into Europe under V-13?
^ Refute it, right now.
Or suffer yet another E3b defeat. [/QUOTE]
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Xross Breed: Nothing changes the fact that not all of the clusters and chromosones under the M78 network
Of course the above statement is completely false.
M78 is not a network.
M78 does not have a polygenetic origin.
M78 is unique SNP marker, a unique event mutation with *by definition* a single African origin - period.
Your attempts to run away from this fact are utterly hopeless.
M78-only and ignore the rest is your argument. I have not denied any African origin for E-M78 so please quit coming up with strawman arguments. The clusters all have member ship in different UEPs, you saw that for yourself,ie, V-12, V-32, etc, which are simply sub-haplogroups under M78, Cruciani's paper details this.
quote:]Concentrating soley on M78 is crucial to honest and accurate assessment of the origin of M78, which is the issue at hand.
Concentrating solely on M78 is wrong and misleading because as you can from the paper its branches are deep and diverse, some of which are even unclassified. Concentrating solely on M78 hides this. The alpha cluster in particular is monophyletic and doesn't have an African origin so the presence of alpha cluster chromosones in Europe is *NOT* proof of an African migration into Europe, stop tapdancing around this issue, you've seen even Underhill support my side by stating that E3b1 is not a marker of African ancestry exclusively.
quote:Desparately trying to change the the subject from M78 in order to deny that M78 is African, is simply another futile attempt to distract, in lieu of the ability to actually debate..well, anything.
Again this is another annoying strawman argument because *NO ONE* and I repeat *NO ONE* has denied that M78 is African so quit putting words and positions in my mouth I haven't taken.
quote:Here's a last chance for you Charles [X-breed]:
The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup. - Sanchez
Somalis are mostly gamma and E3b1* and chromosones under the gamma cluster aren't found in Europe so where's your proof of black Africans bringing alpha chromosones into Europe under V-13?
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
[quote] The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup.[/qutoe] - Sanchez
Somalis are mostly gamma and E3b1* and chromosones under the gamma cluster aren't found in Europe - XBreed.
E3b1* is underived E3b1.
By definition all E3b1 MUST descend from E3b1*.
That is why Sanchez correctly deduces that the Somali are the direct descendants of the Africans who spread down the nile and into Eurasia.
Gamma is a recent cluster effect with a tmrc of 4000 kya. It post dates the spread of E3b1 lineages from the horn to the Nile Valley.
That's why the Nile valley also has no gamma cluster - which did not even 'exist' during the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
At this time the Somali would have carried E3b1* which could at that time might be associatable with no cluster, or might be assocatable some cluster that is not now defined, or does now exist.
Clusters are *not* cladistic lineages - meaning they cannot be used to denote direct unbroken bloodlines in the way that clades can.
It is apparent that in spite of your source material, you don't actually understand what geneticists are saying, or why.
You refuse to even understand what clades and clusters are, yet ludicriously attempt to 'argue' over it anyway.
I asked you to refute Sanchez. Instead you refute your own pretense of understanding population genetics.
You've failed again Charles.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Charles: *NO ONE* has denied that M78 is African
Clade M78 is African and anyone who is of this clade by definition is of African ancestry.
No GENETICIST denies this.
But you do.
Not only are you in denial, but you...deny being in denial.
Not so?
Prove it.
Admit that M78 bearing Europeans are of African descent.
A simple truth, requiring only a 'yes' for and answer.
But you can't bear this truth, primarly because it means admitting that your years or arguing against his fact have been a total waste of time. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Charles, regardless of cluster, how do you think E3b1 haplotype ended up in the Near East and Europe in the first place, if it originated in Africa??
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
In a certain sense this thread is misnomered as it's E3b1 that's particularly been updated in Cruciani et al's report.
I thinks it's obsoleted a few concepts introduced in his 2004 report on E3b in and out of Africa by presenting
the paragroup E3b1a*-M78*
eight M78 subclades (six of which are freshly reported)
precise association of the previously announced clusters to tree tip UEPs.
Instead of α β γ and δ clusters of E3b1-M78, Cruciani has now introduced the precision of
α cluster of E3b1a2-V13
β cluster of E3b1a*-M78*
γ cluster of E3b1a1-V12 (paragroup and V32 subclade)
While telling us that
paragroup E-M78* is predominantly observed in north-western Africa,
haplogroup E-V32 is found almost exclusively in eastern Africa and
haplogroup E-V13 is the only subset of E-M78 observed in the Balkans,
Cruciani has shied away from tabling all the populations and frequencies of the eight UEPs downstream of E3b1-M78.
By way of the MDS plots, Cruciani intimates that "E-V13 is also commonly found in the populations of the central cluster, where, however, other E-M78 sub-haplogroups are also present." Clearly the team's concern with E-V13 in a way not noted for the other UEPs shows a not unexpected bias toward Europe
Of 232 individuals harboring the microsatellites defining the E3b1-M78 clusters in the 2004 report, and generally labeled as a "global sample," this is all that was stated in regards to the E3b1-M78 subclades:
code:
UEP FREQUENCY CLUSTER OF OCCURENCE
E3b1a1*-V12* relatively frequent ( γ δ ) E3b1a1a-M224 in one western Asian (no cluster) E3b1a1b-V32 relatively frequent ( γ )
E3b1a2*-V13* relatively frequent ( α δ ) E3b1a2a-V27 in one subject of unreported geography (no cluster)
E3b1a3*-V22* relatively frequent ( δ ) E3b1a3a-M148 in one southern Asian (no cluster) E3b1a3b-V19 in two subjects of unreported geography (no cluster)
The β cluster retained the occurence of E3b1a-M78 (as a paragroup).
Besides a listing of populations and their frequencies of the new subclades, the TMRCAs and/or Time of Divergence of the UEPs are also left unreported. I could ask why. But if V13 is being singled out because of its significance for the Balkans, the team may have considered it best to leave its date to its associated microsatellite cluster rather than link it to its split from African E3b1a.
In 2004 Cruciani was clear as to M78 α cluster being a Balkan thing but the V13 haplogroup shows up in north-eastern Africa. Because of V13 the M78 α cluster may not be so surely of Balkan originating exclusivity. Hence the missing pop freq tables and TMRCA/TD estimates of all the UEPs.
posted
Sorry about the glitch in the table I made. I didn't know the Greek characters would get replaced with ASCII coding.
code:
UEP FREQUENCY CLUSTER OF OCCURENCE
E3b1a1*-V12* relatively frequent ( gamma delta ) E3b1a1a-M224 in one western Asian (no cluster) E3b1a1b-V32 relatively frequent ( gamma )
E3b1a2*-V13* relatively frequent ( alpha delta ) E3b1a2a-V27 in one subject of unreported geography (no cluster)
E3b1a3*-V22* relatively frequent ( delta ) E3b1a3a-M148 in one southern Asian (no cluster) E3b1a3b-V19 in two subjects of unreported geography (no cluster) . The beta cluster retained the occurence of E3b1a-M78 (as a paragroup).
It's unsurprising that V13 shows up in both alpha and delta clusters, since it's clear that delta was involved in the 1st dispersals of E3b1 into the Levantine and thence into Europe.
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posted
It should also be of note that, Cruciani et al. in this present study, only went over 232 chromosomes out of the 3,401 previously identified E-M78 chromosomes [used in the 2004 Cruciani et al. study] of a random global sampling...and I think the initial six E-M78 chromosomes uitilized to screen out these new UEPs, are included in this 232 bunch unless stated otherwise, in which case, it hadn't been brought to my attention.
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