The meaning of the third part of the royal titulary, the "golden Horus name" Golden Horus , is more disputed. It represents the falcon god Horus perched on a symbol that usually represents "gold". Based on the Greek equivalent of this title on the Rosetta Stone, which translates into English as "superior to (his) foes", it has been proposed that the hieroglyphs symbolised Horus as victorious over Seth, "the Ombite" (another possible reading of the hieroglyph on which the falcon is standing). This was, no doubt, the interpretation of Greek times, when the opposition between Horus and Seth was much more pronounced than in earlier times. For these earlier periods, however, the evidence may point in another direction. If the "golden Horus name" symbolised Horus’ victory over his enemy Seth, one might expect that the names following this group should be aggressive in nature, but most of the time, those names are far from being bellicose. In a context dealing with the titulary of Thutmosis III that king says "he (Amun) modelled me as a falcon of gold". Thutmosis III’s co-regent Hatshepsut calls herself "the female Horus of fine gold". The concept of the golden falcon can be definitely traced back to the 11th Dynasty. An inscription of the 12th Dynasty describes the golden Horus name as the "name of gold". The notion of "gold" is strongly linked to the notion of "eternity". The burial chamber in the royal tombs of the New Kingdom was often called the "golden room", not (only) because it was stacked up with gold, but because it was there for eternity. The "golden Horus name" may convey the same notion of eternity, expressing the wish that the king may be an eternal Horus.
It strikes me odd how many Egyptologists go through GREAT effort not to call this name or references to the "golden" ones by the appropriate term in English: NUBIAN. The fact that the King had a Nubian name and that golden ones were "Nubians" makes the idea of Nubians being a distinct polity to the south of Egypt even more ridiculous. South of Egypt today is what is called the Nubian Desert, not because of the PEOPLE, but because that is where the GOLD MINES of ancient Egypt were.
HERE IS A IMAGE OF THE GOLDEN HORUS
Notice the name change:
quote: Nebu From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Nebu is the Egyptian symbol of gold. It depicts a golden collar with the ends hanging off of the sides and seven spines dangling from the middle.
Ancient Egyptians believed that gold was an indestructible and heavenly metal. The sun god, Ra, was often referred to as a mountain of gold. The Royal Tomb, in fact, known as the "House of Gold". The Pharaohs of the Old Kingdom were called the "Golden Horus". The skin of gods and other deities was said to be golden.
Gold(nebu)
Appearance: The hieroglyph for gold represents a golden collar with beads on its lower edge and hanging ends.
Meaning: Appearance: The hieroglyph for gold represents a golden collar with beads on its lower edge and hanging ends. Gold was considered by the ancient Egyptians to be a divine and indestructible metal. It was associated with the brilliance of the sun. The sun god Re was called "the mountain of gold" and during the Old Kingdom, the Pharaoh was called "the Golden Horus. The skin of the deities was believed to be golden.
The royal tomb was called the "House of Gold" during the New Kingdom and Isis and Nephthys were often depicted on the ends of sarcophagi kneeling on the hieroglyph meaning "gold".
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Notice the name change: ...
From Nub to Nebu.
There was probably no change in the name at all. Remember, Egyptian writing like many Afrasian languages only show the consonants of a word and the vowels could vary.
Also, there was an important city in Upper Egypt called Nubti or the 'Golden City' which was the original 'Nubia' and perhaps the only place that the Egyptians designated as 'Nubia'.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Nub.t Nubu Nubiu....the golden city, the golden ones, gold miners.
A native "Kemetic term" for Kemetic peoples and places.
Wally once asked:
Do you think people will ever understand that the "Nubians" were the Ancient Egyptians?
Well??
Once again spelling it out: The idea of *Nubians* as a distinct race of Black Africans mysteriously loitering about Ancient Egypt is a critical propaganda device for Eurocentrism.
It allows them to explain away anything in Km.t that is irrefutably African or obviously Black - as Nubian and therefore *not* Egyptian.
Obversely, anything of value that is Nubian - is just as easily reclaimed as Egyptian - and therefore non African, and non Black.
First you back the victim into a corner - then you steal his positions.
Specifically:
* Everything African or Black is called Nubian.
* Everything Nubian that is of value is called Egyptian.
* Therefore nothing of value is African or Black.
This game of cat and mouse is even played with the Qustal incense burner.
Time to stop being bamboozled by "nubianology".
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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^^LOL Couldn't have put it any better myself, Rasol. I love your way with words. Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Originally posted by Hotep2u: Notice the name change: ... From Nub to Nebu.
It isn't a name change, just an improper rendering of the Mdu Ntr. It also shows how it is important to retrieve the vocalics of the language by, as Mr. Budge has stated, comparing it to other African languages. Here are examples of how the language is misinterpreted:
Hwr or Hur is almost always mistakenly written as Heru; as the word is written Hrw, but the "w" ending is to tell the reader that the "w" is the vowel inside the word. And how do we know this? Simply by comparing it to the way it is pronounced in Coptic and other African languages: Coptic: khwr (hwr) = Horus (the "kh" here means the 'hard' "h" sound)
The same with Anpw which is actually pronounced "Anoup" or "Anoupi"
And your name "Htp" is pronounced "Hot(e)pe" - sound it out and you'll hear the "silent" e between the 't' and the 'p'; and we know this from the rendering of this word from other languages as well.
It is the same with the Mdu Ntr word "Nbw" Nbw can mean "Noub" or "Noubiou" depending on how it is written. In Coptic: Noub = gold Noub(i)ou = gold ones; gold miners; gold workers; goldsmiths From this, it became in the Greek and Latin "Nubian"; literally "Egyptian gold/miners/smiths" ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^^Thanks very much for this most important and enlightening information, Wally.
So apparently, Egyptologists' mistake was not using Coptic (the direct daughter language) and other closely related African languages as a guide. Go figure.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ...So apparently, Egyptologists' mistake was not using Coptic (the direct daughter language) and other closely related African languages as a guide. Go figure.
Yeah, and they also did the same thing with the word for "red." The scribes wrote their words to be aesthetically appealing. That's why if you don't know the word, you can mistakenly misread it:
Example: The word for "red" is written d+sh+r+t which may be technically correct but it is also WRONG. It should be read d+r+sh+(t)!
The words in two African languages are: Coptic: Terosh Wolof: Deret (blood)
Thus the Mdu Ntr word would more certainly be pronounced "Derosh" But until there's an organized academic effort to write the Mdu Ntr correctly, we'll have to live with Deshret, Heru, etc. At least folks get the general idea anyway...sometimes ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^I'm still weary of using Wolof in the study though. All verification to Diop's claims of Egyptian being an African language aside, Wolof is not Afrasian...
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^I'm still weary of using Wolof in the study though. All verification to Diop's claims of Egyptian being an African language aside, Wolof is not Afrasian...
Neither is the Mdu Ntr "Afrasian" You're dealing with a European concept and not necessarily with reality, for example:
a) Did you know that the Bohairic dialect of northern (Delta) region of Egypt has shown some similarities to Bantu rather than east African languages - IE, Lome for "men, people" corresponds to the Bantu "Lomi" for men, people; in Sahidic it's "Rome"...
b) Because the Wolof language is situated in west Africa today, tells us nothing of its origins (How did Australia become an English speaking country?): Diop has demonstrated the geneology of his language, even the influence of passing through the Sudan and journeying to West Africa.
c) "Afrasian" nonsense aside: to seize, grasp Wolof - kef Mdu Ntr - kef Coptic - keh (that's an "h" at the end)
Diop also demonstrated that the conjugation of this word, for example, is almost identical with that of the Mdu Ntr, IE, kef-i...kef on es....
to become black, blacken Wolof - Khem Coptic - Kmom Mdu Ntr - Kmem
Diop's killer demonstration
Wolof: Bw rafet mel ni bw bon = "A good place has become an evil place" Mdu Ntr: Bw nafret zu em bw bon = "A good place has become an evil place"
Don't you kinda think that these two linguistic groups might even be able to communicate with each other?
The classification of African languages is as specious as the classification of Ancient Egypt as being "mediterranean" or "near-eastern."
All of this stuff has to be re-done, and mainly by qualified African scholars! ...tis all...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What about hieratic script? What were the letters' order where no "aesthetic appeal" was involved?
quote: In parallel with the development of the hieroglyphic script, a second script came to light. Such script was a mere simplification of the artistic, and sometimes laborious, hieroglyphic. It was originally devised by the priests to record the records of the temples and then became a tool of the government servants, educated by the learned priests, who used it to record the affairs of the state. Due to the priestly origin of the script the name 'hieretic' was popularly affixed to it. This script used the same symbols, drawn in a simplified way. There is no indication that script had as many ideograms as the hieroglyphic had.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Neither is the Mdu Ntr "Afrasian" You're dealing with a European concept and not necessarily with reality,..
Not all European concepts are inaccurate and unrealistic. While the Greenburg system of African languages may not be perfect it is a heck of alot more accurate than its predecessors which were blatantly bias. By the Greenburg system, the exact same techniques used to classify European languages were used to classify African languages, and practically all linguists today aknowledge the Afrasian language phylum. Unless you speak of those "alternative" and less taken seriously pseudo-linguists like say.. Winters.
quote:for example:
(a) Did you know that the Bohairic dialect of northern (Delta) region of Egypt has shown some similarities to Bantu rather than east African languages - IE, Lome for "men, people" corresponds to the Bantu "Lomi" for men, people; in Sahidic it's "Rome"...
LOL Did you know that there is a valid linguistic theory (invented by Europeans yes, but proven time and again to be accurate) which explains the sound changes which account for language evolution and diversity. These sound changes take place between certain letters like s and h or l and r and is especially true for vowels. Thus the Latin word for sun is sole while the Indian Prakrit word for sun was sura.
Considering this linguistic theory, which was proven enough times to be considered a linguistic law we can thus establish the commonality of both lomi and rome-- l - r and i - e.
quote:(b) Because the Wolof language is situated in west Africa today, tells us nothing of its origins (How did Australia become an English speaking country?): Diop has demonstrated the geneology of his language, even the influence of passing through the Sudan and journeying to West Africa.
I'm sorry to say Wally, but Diop's methodology was flawed. In fact the exact same methodology is used by people like Winters as well as the Aryanist 'Nostratics'. The only languages in West Africa truly genetically related to those of Mdu Ntr are Chadic languages like the prominent Hausa language and Berber languages like those spoken by the Zenaga and Haratin. Indeed, it is the Chadic languages that are spread from Sudan all the way to the West African coast, and interestingly enough Berber is spread from Egypt (the Siwa) all the way to Senegal (home of the Zenaga).
quote:(c) "Afrasian" nonsense aside: to seize, grasp Wolof - kef Mdu Ntr - kef Coptic - keh (that's an "h" at the end)
Diop also demonstrated that the conjugation of this word, for example, is almost identical with that of the Mdu Ntr, IE, kef-i...kef on es....
to become black, blacken Wolof - Khem Coptic - Kmom Mdu Ntr - Kmem
Diop's killer demonstration
Wolof: Bw rafet mel ni bw bon = "A good place has become an evil place"
Mdu Ntr: Bw nafret zu em bw bon = "A good place has become an evil place"
Again, it such examples from Diop that are proven to be nonsense especially since certain scholars have used similar techniques to show relations between say.. Mande and Dravidian.
quote:Don't you kinda think that these two linguistic groups might even be able to communicate with each other?
If you mean Mdu Neter, we just don't have any evidence of it. But we do have evidence of its relatives in West Africa i.e. Chadic and Berber tongues.
quote:The classification of African languages is as specious as the classification of Ancient Egypt as being "mediterranean" or "near-eastern."
No it isn't. Not if the classification is done properly, which it has albeit by Europeans.
quote:All of this stuff has to be re-done, and mainly by qualified African scholars! ...tis all...
LOL Actually, African scholars for the most part AGREE with the system in place. Of course they as being the native speakers of those languages had to correct certain things but they agree with the major language phylums especially Afrasian.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I just wanna know what's the order of the letters in hieratic? Is it the exact same sequence as in hieroglyphic or ain't it?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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For Diop's complete comparison of the languages of Wolof and Mdu Ntr; Goto > http://www.melanet.com/clegg_series/diop.html and read (or Edit; select find )> "Linguistic Affinities"
It is up to the reader to determine whether or not it is valid or "flawed"...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^^It has already explained how Diop's linguistic work is flawed. Wolof and Mdu Neter, despite certain similarities are NOT closely related. The similarities are likely attributed to Wolof being in close proximity to and influenced by Berber languages.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I just wanna know what's the order of the letters in hieratic? Is it the exact same sequence as in hieroglyphic or ain't it?
I think it is. From right to left.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Folks I don't want to bring this topic to a tit for tat level, but I am forced to EXPOSE some body, though I am not going to give any names because the title does NOT fit the bearer of the title so lets look at the facts.
Someone is giving Wally a challenge though that person refuses to give 1 example to support their claims, that person only gives a opinion which is just that a OPINION.
quote: Not all European concepts are inaccurate and unrealistic. While the Greenburg system of African languages may not be perfect it is a heck of alot more accurate than its predecessors which were blatantly bias. By the Greenburg system, the exact same techniques used to classify European languages were used to classify African languages, and practically all linguists today aknowledge the Afrasian language phylum. Unless you speak of those "alternative" and less taken seriously pseudo-linguists like say.. Winters.
No example is given to support the position, now can you imagine that the mystery person even attempts to drag Mr. Winters into the argument though Clyde Winters is at least BOLD enough to give a EXAMPLE so if Clyde Winters is wrong we can see for ourselves, and if Clyde Winters is correct we can see for ourselves based off the facts.
quote: LOL Did you know that there is a valid linguistic theory (invented by Europeans yes, but proven time and again to be accurate) which explains the sound changes which account for language evolution and diversity. These sound changes take place between certain letters like s and h or l and r and is especially true for vowels. Thus the Latin word for sun is sole while the Indian Prakrit word for sun was sura.
See the game, the strawman throws in a example of a LATIN word for sun (sole) and then compares it to a INDIAN word for sun (sura). Now if the language comparison was between Latin and Indian Prakrit then you know who would have been given due credit, though the language comparison is between Kemetic\Egyptian and WOLOF I am tempted to name the mystery person, I'm tempted to say the mystery name but I will not, I will try to travel high road.
quote: Considering this linguistic theory, which was proven enough times to be considered a linguistic law we can thus establish the commonality of both lomi and rome-- l - r and i - e.
commonality of lomi and rome/ l-r and i-e, commonality is another straw because Wally gave specific Words from Kemetic/Egyptian Mdu Ntr and their similar DEFINITIONS also.
quote: I'm sorry to say Wally, but Diop's methodology was flawed. In fact the exact same methodology is used by people like Winters as well as the Aryanist 'Nostratics'. The only languages in West Africa truly genetically related to those of Mdu Ntr are Chadic languages like the prominent Hausa language and Berber languages like those spoken by the Zenaga and Haratin. Indeed, it is the Chadic languages that are spread from Sudan all the way to the West African coast, and interestingly enough Berber is spread from Egypt (the Siwa) all the way to Senegal (home of the Zenaga).
Takes more cheap shots at Clyde Winters and as usual gives no EXAMPLE to prove his point.
quote: It has already explained how Diop's linguistic work is flawed. Wolof and Mdu Neter, despite certain similarities are NOT closely related. The similarities are likely attributed to Wolof being in close proximity to and influenced by Berber languages.
Look at this we are all expected to accept that Diop's linguistic work is flawed though NO examples of the FLAW that is said to exist in Diop's linguistic work is given. I am sure by now we all know who the mystery individual is though I am NOT going to name any names.
This is why I said IGNORE you know who because the individual argues for the sake of arguing, no proof is ever given just VAGUE comments and ONE liners and cheap shots at people who aren't even involved in the discussion at hand.
posted
Fulani is today the closes link and similar language to Ancient Egyptians. Having almost all words in common, and hieroglyphs have unfortunately disappeared in the fulani society of today because of their islamisation and the change to arabic looking letters. read 'de l'origine egyptienne des peuls' by aboubacry moussa lam where at the end of the book there is a hieroglyphic (fulani) dictionary. amazingly many english words derive from there.
quote:Originally posted by tuaregwodabe: Fulani is today the closes link and similar language to Ancient Egyptians...
Oh will you shut up already!!!???
How can YOU so leisurely make CLAIMS that YOU cannot even prove!!!???
The Fulani are probably as related to the Ancient Egyptians as any other people in Africa pfft! .
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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