posted
The following analysis of the Akan matriarchy could have easily been used to describe Ancient Kemet; one would only have to substitute Kemet for Akan...
quote: Wilhelmina J. Donkoh, a faculty member in history at the University of Ghana, talked about the Asante, one of the matrilineal Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana as a culture of cooperation, as well. Female leaders, she said, play a central role in the sociopolitical system of the Asante, but, she stressed, they do so in collaboration with men. “There is an intricate network of relationships that recognize women as central and important but acknowledge men’s role,” she said. Asante ancestry is traced to a mother figure, which is also reflected in Asante origin stories. In one of the culture’s stories, the female foundress descends from the skies with a retinue of people and settles on the earth to populate it. In another origin account, men and women emerge from the earth and the women become founders of clans or lineages. The female-founded clan forms the basis of Asante society. Every person of the clan is seen as inheriting “blood” from the mother and “spirit” from the father. “One is always certain of the mother, but not necessarily the father,” explains Donkoh. The concept of “cousins” or “aunts” does not exist among the Asante; all women are considered mothers and all children of the clan are considered brothers and sisters. While matrilocality, or living on the mother’s homestead, is preferred, in some cases a new wife may go to live with her husband’s family. Spiritually, the Asante acknowledge multiple levels of reality: the future spirit realm of the unborn, the present realm of the living, and the realm of life after death. Natural phenomena such as rocks, mountains, and lakes are seen to be the dwelling places of female spirits. Female deity is balanced by the presence of a supreme being who is considered male, an omniscient force that provides people with essentials such as water and sun. “Akan society is a sacred society,” Donkoh observed. “They acknowledge spirit in all they do.” Ancestors, for example, are honored through an offering of the first morsel of every meal and the first drop of every drink. http://www.universitadelledonne.it/english/matriarchy1.htm
The false notion of Kings Contemporary folks who live in Patriarchal societies, and totally ignorant of Matriarchal societies, try to deny the existence of the Matriarchal reality by pointing out the fact that these societies are ruled by Kings. Well, Akan society was ruled by Kings as well; the prime example being the Ashanti kingdom in northern Ghana. Heck, if the Ashanti civilization was ruled by Queens, you wouldn't have a matriarchal society but a MATRIARCHATE! The total control of the society by women! This would be illogical to the African concept of Maat, of balance, of the unity of opposites, of order and stability. And the role of woman in African matrilineal society can best be illustrated by the part played by the great Queen Mother Yaa Asantewaa in the Ashanti wars against British colonialism; the same intellectual tradition that gave us Tiye, Nefertiti, Aames Nefertari, the Candaces of the Sudan, Angela Davis and on and on goes this cultural/ideological continuum...
Those who deny the reality of Kemet as being a matriarchal society are not only in denial but should be thrown into Da Nile! Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
^I knew you knew Kmt was matrilineal, but thought you were against the idea it was patrilinial.[?]
Doesn't one of your thread titles read: "The Kemetian Matriarchy and other things not likely"?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
^ Though I can't speak for Wally, I will say that when he named his other thread, 'The Kemetian Matriarchy and other things not likely' he was being facetious.
Let me add some other things as well. First, there seems to be some confusion over the words matriarchy and matrilineage. I was confused at first myself but it all stems from the etymology. 'Matriarchy' etymologically means rule of the mother, meaning female rule or power. The definition of the word eventually became corrupted to include matrilineage, which means lineage of the mother. Of course lineage and social rule or dominance are two different things that may correlate with each other but still different concepts.
Wally's problem I think is that in his effort to emphasize the African identity of the Egyptians he quickly classifies Egyptian society to be 'matriarchal' including matrilineal. The only the problem though is that not all African societies are matrilineal or even matriarchal as West African groups like the Akan. Now I'm not ruling out the possibility that the Egyptians weren't, I am just pointing out this fact.
This is one subject that is still being contested in Egyptology with the notion of matriarchy or matrilineage being relatively new to the Egyptological community and for obvious reasons.
In regards to gender roles, Egyptian society was more egalitarian in that both sexes were relatively equal. True that like in most societies males were more oriented in the political level, that did not take away female authority in other spheres especially that in economy where like in many African societies, women ran the marketplaces.
As for lineage, that is a more difficult question to answer since the Egyptians did not leave much evidence in this issue. There are arguments for both sides-- either patrilineal or matrilineal and some scholars even suggest bilineal. Those who argue matrilineage point to the royal heiress custom and how the throne itself is associated with the royal woman. There is also the fact that the early dynasties of the Old Kingdom had the names of their mothers' written down in tombs but not their fathers. Among commoners the saying is that a person's heart (the very source of vitality) comes from the mother, and farmland is usually passed from mother to daughters. The problem however is that the prevailing theory in anthropology states that *all* cultures were at one point in time matrilineal. Since unlike paternity, maternity was always certain with children being born from the bodies of their mother, therefore matrilineage was easier and more convenient to trace. Since even patrilineal societies were once matrilineal, it is possible that such matrilineal traditions practiced by the Egyptians were vestiges of earlier matrilineal times with patrilineage being the actual system of lineage. Those who argue patrlineage say that names are usually given from father to son moreso than mother to daughter and that in many nomes, entire clans may be represented by males or male names.
Since women were prominent in neolithic cultures as they were the ones who invented agriculture, matriarchy is considered the rule among such cultures but what about afterward? If there was a cultural shift from female prominence to male prominence, when exactly did it take place? Around dynastic times or after? Definitely women and womens' roles became greatly reduced after dynastic Egypt and especially by the Islamic conquest.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): ^I knew you knew Kmt was matrilineal, but thought you were against the idea it was Matriarchal.[?]
Doesn't one of your thread titles read: "The Kemetian Matriarchy and other things not likely"?
and good post Djehuti.
IMO it seems like it would be matrilineal since the Pharaonic line of decent was matrilineal.
I just thought Wally was agaist the idea of a matriarchal Kemet, but I see what you mean now.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Heru symbolized the office of the living pharaoh, while Ausar symbolized the passed away predecessor pharaoh -- all in all, the concept portrays a patrilineal line of descent, with father-to-son being personified by Ausar-to-Heru; so in this respect, although legitimization of reign was usually done by way of the heiress queen, the pharaoh's office appears to have been patrilineal in character. Bottom line: these components of the pharaonic apparatus makes it simplistic to pin it down to a wholely patriarchal or matriarchal camp.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ I agree. Not only do the Ausar and Heru myths show a succession from father to son but throughout dynastic Egypt pharoahs were expected to have sons to succeed them and thus maintain an actual lineage. Again, this did not only apply to royalty but also among commoners where fathers wanted sons to pass names and clan titles to.
If Egyptians were matrilineal at one point in the past, then matrilocal customs such as the royal heiress and farmland inheritance to daughters, are merely vestiges or remnants of that tradition. The same can be said for example of ancient Israelites wherein Biblical traditions particularly those in Genesis explicitly show a strong incentive for men to fetch wives from their homeland even though they live many miles away somewhere else. Another example would be royal traditions of Thailand, where a Thai prince in order to legitimize his place on the throne must marry a royal Thai woman. Both ancient Israelite and Thai cultures are patrilineal and trace familial and clan descent through the males, but both still maintained matrilocal traditions through endogamous marriage only-- that is marrying women of the same ethncity. The association of women with the homeland and very nativity of a group or community is the premise of matrilocality, regardless of what lineage system is actually used. Perhaps the best example would be other peoples of the African continent. West African princes must marry royal women of their people to legitimize their right to the throne even if they are patrilineal. This shows that one should not mistake the royal heiress custom for actual descent or lineage for it is not!
As far as lineage system goes, there is evidence pointing to many West African groups being matrilineal in the past even though they are patrilineal now. The Akan people seem to be one of the rare exceptions of matrilineage still surviving to the present day. A perfect example of evidence for lineage shift would be the very first lines of the Sundiata epic, which explicitly describes the patrilineage system replacing matrilineage. There are scholars that argue a similar case for Egypt, but definitely by dynastic times Egyptians were patrilineal.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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If anything (before learning more about AE society) I in the past assumed it to have been (if either patriarchal or matriarchal) patriarchal (mostly male pharaohs, duh).
quote:Bottom line: these components of the pharaonic apparatus makes it simplistic to pin it down to a wholely patriarchal or matriarchal camp.
posted
^ The thing is that human cultures are complex even in terms of gender roles. Some cultures can be generalized as patriarchal or male dominated and few 'matriarchal' or female dominated (more accurately matrix or female oriented), but these are generalizations and the majority of cultures fall somewhere in between in varying degrees with power and influence expressed in different ways by the sexes. Even the most matriarchal or matrical societies were never oppressive to men in the way that the most patriarchal societies are. And Egyptian society even during dynastic times when men weilded more political power and influence than women, never oppressed women. Which is why Explora was right to say that such terms cannot easily convey or describe the actual gender realities of Egypt.
If anything Egyptian society displayed a very balanced view of the sexes. Not a duality as many people tend to believe but more accurately a complementary view of gender the same way they viewed the universe as all a part of Maat. Thus, while the role of pharaoh or king was traditionally considered a male role, the keeper of the throne and access to kingship was always a female role.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The problem here, with you all, is the inability to separate a current social reality; of men versus women, with an African traditional value, as exemplified by the example of the Akan culture, of an African social reality which existed also in Kemet...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The problem here, with you all, is the inability to separate a current social reality; of men versus women, with an African traditional value, as exemplified by the example of the Akan culture, of an African social reality which existed also in Kemet...
^ Good to hear from you again Wally.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Indeed, welcome back Wally man! Where you been at if you don't mind me asking?
quote:Originally posted by Wally: The problem here, with you all, is the inability to separate a current social reality; of men versus women, with an African traditional value, as exemplified by the example of the Akan culture, of an African social reality which existed also in Kemet...
I fail to see how we have the problem you say we have. I specifically addressed the cultural issue of 'matriarchy' and I even specified the African cultural contexts. Please point out where in my writings above am I wrong.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Alot of people (especially those raised in the West) do think in a verses or 'OR' type manner though, and so usually won't easily comprehend the 'complexities' of Km.tyw society (or other African societies) in which the goal of the society is for males and females to work together rather than to dominate one another.
I actually fell in love with Km.t when I learned of such a Society of Social Superlatives.
Also, an error on my part: in addition to confusing Wally's views with someone else's expressed views on here because of an April 02 '07 thread title (I sometimes zoom thru certain members thread's looking for gems) I also assumed that whether a society is matriarchal or patriarchal has to do with the sex of the monarch or ruler.
Definitions of Matriarchy:
quote:Matriarchy - 1. A social system in which the mother is head of the family. 2. A family, community, or society based on this system or governed by women.
quote:Matriarchy is a term, which is applied to gynocentric form of society, in which the leading role is by the female and especially by the mothers of a community.
- Encyclopedia Britannica 2007
and
quote:Matriarchy
1 : a family, group, or state governed by a matriarch 2 : a system of social organization in which descent and inheritance are traced through the female line
oh dear i fear the worst -- a massive data purge without notice thus no saving transfer -- for the love of money please give us time to save our intellectual property -- please let's negotiate
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Alot of people (especially those raised in the West) do think in a verses or 'OR' type manner though, and so usually won't easily comprehend the 'complexities' of Km.tyw society (or other African societies) in which the goal of the society is for males and females to work together rather than to dominate one another.
Of course an ideal society should have men and women working together. Unfortunately for some societies or cultures this isn't so, and that includes 'traditional' Western culture as is many so-called Islamic cultures. As for 'matriarchy' and 'patriarchy', again such descriptions aren't about the sexes dominating each other so much as gender hierarchy or prestige. Even the most 'matriarchal' societies did not really dominate men.
quote:I actually fell in love with Km.t when I learned of such a Society of Social Superlatives.
Kmt is not the only one, nor are such societies found in Africa only.
quote:Also, an error on my part: in addition to confusing Wally's views with someone else's expressed views on here because of an April 02 '07 thread title (I sometimes zoom thru certain members thread's looking for gems) I also assumed that whether a society is matriarchal or patriarchal has to do with the sex of the monarch or ruler.
Not necessarily, though the actual etymology of of the suffix 'archy' does mean rule. The problem however is that gender roles and even power itself is not confined to monarchies.
quote:Definitions of Matriarchy:
quote:Matriarchy - 1. A social system in which the mother is head of the family. 2. A family, community, or society based on this system or governed by women.
quote:Matriarchy is a term, which is applied to gynocentric form of society, in which the leading role is by the female and especially by the mothers of a community.
- Encyclopedia Britannica 2007
and
quote:Matriarchy
1 : a family, group, or state governed by a matriarch 2 : a system of social organization in which descent and inheritance are traced through the female line
^ Yea, the confusion comes also from 'matrilineage' being added to the definition of 'matriarchy'.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Does anyone know if the Yorubas were once matrilineal?
I know Yorubas are patrilineal today since it's the father's surname that's taken. However, many Yorubas today actually use the "firstname" of a grandfather or great-grandfather as their surname.
In my case, I was told that I had a previous surname but my great-grandfather chose our current one for whatever reason (though we still know the previous one).
Do you guys have info on how Yorubas organised their lineage issues?
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I don't know for sure, but I recall reading somehwere that some of you are/were (?).
You guys aren't matriarchal, but sure are the more Matriarchal of the bigger groups of Nigeria. You're certainly more like say the Ashante (in *that* regard) than are the Hausa.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:I actually fell in love with Km.t when I learned of such a Society of Social Superlatives.
Kmt is not the only one, nor are such societies found in Africa only.
I'm aware. I'm even aware of Polyandry in the Himalayas as well as elsewhere in Asia and Africa though it's not the same thing as sexual equality (though it usually implies such).
What made me so smug about Kemet was that it was an early state (the first state) and prior to learning about women's status in ancient Egypt, I had only learned about the hype (it was heavily a slave labor society and a Patriarchal one at that yada yada yada).
posted
^ Polydanry was once practiced by some groups in Africa also but became extinct during colonialism. And yes I understand your inquiries into Egypt since it indeed was the earliest known nation-state.
quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: Does anyone know if the Yorubas were once matrilineal?
I know Yorubas are patrilineal today since it's the father's surname that's taken. However, many Yorubas today actually use the "firstname" of a grandfather or great-grandfather as their surname.
In my case, I was told that I had a previous surname but my great-grandfather chose our current one for whatever reason (though we still know the previous one).
Do you guys have info on how Yorubas organised their lineage issues?
I am not too familiar with West African lineage and kinship, but from what I've heard the Igbo follow the same type of lineage customs. As to whether they were once matrilineal, it is very possible. Again, the argument is that all cultures were at some point in the past matrilineal.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ I don't think any red-blooded African man will agree to sharing his women. Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
That may be true. But I doubt sexually athletic women are reporting all their "extra-curricular" activities.
Africa is a vast continent. There are, or were, ethnies who didn't place a host of emphasis on females' "fidelity."
I know of an East African people who in times past, if the woman was is entertaining a male guest her husband will not enter the home if he sees a spear stuck outside the entrance (now it's simply the sight of the visitors shoes that announce he shouldn't enter.
Different people have different values that need not be judged by outsiders. An outsider should be careful to analyze the norms of the people of a woman he's dating in consideration of marriage as to combatibility with his own ethos.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I know of an East African people who in times past, if the woman was is entertaining a male guest her husband will not enter the home if he sees a spear stuck outside the entrance (now it's simply the sight of the visitors shoes that announce he shouldn't enter.
Well in my part of West Africa, that woman ceases to be called "The Wife" the instant this sort of thing happens and from then on can only be seen as that woman. Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Goody 4 u. So I'm coming over and using your computer from now on.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I can't see it still. Must be a Europe thing. Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: I can't see it still. Must be a Europe thing.
Yea maybe if you are from, and live in Europe, you can't see it, or maybe your computers just retarded??
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
^ We can't see the work of yet another of your white masters whiskey. Oh my, for an "Africanist" you do seem to seek out their validation. LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: ^ We can't see the work of yet another of your white masters whiskey. Oh my, for an "Africanist" you do seem to seek out their validation. LOL
Actually I searched google for a book, was reading, found something interesting from an author I've read before, and posted it. Some can see it, others can't. Not my fault.
Yet again you don't offer anything of relevance, but rather you spout off in a diversion towards "race", why? Simply because you believe in race, but don't know how to prove it, a concept that you've been trying to aggrandize with a broken stick. Your attempts have been futile, and in vain for all to see....
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
I believe there are "blacks" and "whites" and so do you, "It's kind of like when whites were seen salvaging for food after Katrina, they were immediately considered as "searching for food", but when it was blacks they were referred to as "looters".."
you fucking hypocrite...LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: I can't see it still. Must be a Europe thing.
Yea maybe if you are from, and live in Europe, you can't see it, or maybe your computers just retarded??
Excuse me Whiseguy but I'm not from Europe (I just live there) and I run on attested TCB.
What you know about that.
I know that the people who love to mention white masters or white and black in general, are pale Europeans, or Africans living in Europe. Lol
You, Marc, Meniarmer, Egmond, Argyle, Akoben....It's really no wonder.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
^^Are you foreal? Don't compare Heru to any of those fags.
*******************************
Speaking of losers, I say we establish forum rules with new moderation, so we don't have to see any more of the unwarranted queer calls like in the posts above (like akoben's above posts for example -- and 80+ % of his posts).
Playful name calling would be aloud, but it should be warned against like ausar used to.
Fights might be inevitable and if so should be aloud but we need to check out how past disagreements got turned into fights.(?)
Lastly, no random/spontaneous flaming / no dragging beefs from thread to thread un provoked (or possibly at all).
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Goody 4 u. So I'm coming over and using your computer from now on.
quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: I can't see it still. Must be a Europe thing.
Yea maybe if you are from, and live in Europe, you can't see it, or maybe your computers just retarded??
Excuse me Whiseguy but I'm not from Europe (I just live there) and I run on attested TCB.
What you know about that.
I know that the people who love to mention white masters or white and black in general, are pale Europeans, or Africans living in Europe. Lol
You, Marc, Meniarmer, Egmond, Argyle, Akoben....It's really no wonder.
I do still work for a white establishment, so I suppose there's some little truth in what you're saying.
You didn't have to rub salt in though. I'm on my way home.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): ^^Are you foreal? Don't compare Heru to any of those fags.
*******************************
Speaking of losers, I say we establish forum rules with new moderation, so we don't have to see any more of the unwarranted queer calls like in the posts above (like akoben's above posts for example -- and 80+ % of his posts).
Playful name calling would be aloud, but it should be warned against like ausar used to.
Fights might be inevitable and if so should be aloud but we need to check out how past disagreements got turned into fights.(?)
Lastly, no random/spontaneous flaming / no dragging beefs from thread to thread un provoked (or possibly at all).
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Goody 4 u. So I'm coming over and using your computer from now on.
lol
LOL Hey Aliveboy, speaking of faggots, in my earlier posting days didn't you say you liked me? Don't you remember? LOL fucking faggot
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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