posted
I am wondering why scholars and others are SILENT about AE bloody rituals,including human sacrifices .
Also why the sociologists are silent that this in fact was an integral part of the AE society and up till modern times.
Even New Agers or people proposing alternative views of AE history seldom discuss this..
As for the people telling us about the "wisdom of the AE or re-creating their ancient religion as an alternative to the current ones or the occult crowd like the Freemasons-all seem to underplay the bloody past of the AE society..etc..
One author that was not afraid to write about it with archeological proofs is EA Wallis Budge,especially in his 2 vol set books called "OSIRIS and the Egyptian Resurrection".Dover 1971,a reprint of the 1911 ed
See chap V, "Osiris and Cannibalism" chap VI,"Osiris and Human sacrifice,and Funeral Murders".
So even from pre-dynastic period ,even after the "fall of the AE society" it continued...
Also I take the view that their customs were to a degree in tune with what was being done elsewhere
ryb
Note- the Nubian kings,Meroitic Kingdom did likewise,thus...
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posted
Also: The most extreme mutilation inflicted on dead enemies is cannibalism. Anthropologists usually make a distinction between ritual and culinary cannibalism. Ritual cannibalism, which is the more common type, involves the consumption of only a portion of a corpse (sometimes after it has been reduced to ashes) for magical purposes.
Culinary, or gastronomic, cannibalism consists of eating human meat as food. Some scholars also distinguish starvation cannibalism, which may occur in famine conditions, from the culinary type.
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posted
Seems to me that the real desecration of the human body occurs when a person's life is just snuffed out without cause as in "murder". After a person is murdered what does it really matter what is done to the dead body?
Thus, the greatest disrespect that can be shown to a human being is to kill that being without cause. What happens to the dead body after such an act is of minor importance.
It's for that reason that I am always puzzled by people getting all worked up over cannibalism yet are hardly bothered by wanton or planned killings or murders. Examples: bombing people from the air, invading peoples' living space and when they resist murdering them with wanton disregard, etc., etc.
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posted
^^^ I agree. But I think there is also disrespect in eating a human being (or dare I say, even animals).
ray2006, this is a very interesting topic. MANY ethnic groups in Africa still practice sacrificial/ritual killings (west, south, east African - don't know about north). It has been reported on widely in the UK newspapers about African babies being sacrificed, presumably by some African relative.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
But those ritual killings the Western media love to scream about are no more prevalent than similar individualistic events in the West. Recall Jeff Dahmer and Armin "Hot Dog" Miewes? And note that the symbolic consuming of the body and drinking of his blood of the European shaman the Christ--as is evident in the Holy Communion of the Catholics--is not much more than ritual cannibalism.
And I would put organ transplant--supposedly proof of the efficiency of modern medicine--in the same category.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: And I would put organ transplant--supposedly proof of the efficiency of modern medicine--in the same category.
Hmmmm... very interesting. I've always been suspicious of the "organ transplant" business. Also, I happen to know that it is common in the UK for a deceased persons' organ(s) to be "transplanted" without permission under some loophole in the law. They are also planning to legalise euthanasia (if they haven't already) with the hope of "speeding" up the dying process of terminally ill patients.
Do you mean to say the "organ transplant" thing is being used as a vehicle to transfer dead bodies or parts into the hands of people with intentions of using them in a ritual?
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by herukhuti: Hmmmm... very interesting. I've always been suspicious of the "organ transplant" business.
It's a dirty little secret of the organ donation industry
Donated bodies blown up by Army March 10, 2004 by Stewart Yerton The Times-Picayune
Tulane suspends deal with cadaver broker
When Tulane University found itself with a temporary oversupply of cadavers that had been donated to science a few years ago, the school did what it usually does: It called a cadaver broker.
Tulane said it assumed the broker would ship the bodies to other universities, where medical students would dissect them.
Instead, the broker sold the bodies to the Army, and the Army blew them up in land-mine experiments.
The Army says it did nothing wrong and has a legitimate need to study whether special boots can prevent land-mine injuries. The broker said he only did what brokers do: link up buyers with sellers.
But others say that blowing up bodies is not what donors have in mind when they turn over the remains of loved ones "to science." And Tulane said it, too, was surprised.
"That preceded me, but . . . we took immediate steps to make sure that didn't happen again," said Mary Bitner Anderson, chairman of the Tulane School of Medicine's department of structural and cellular biology. "We told (the broker) this was not the way our donated bodies should be used."
The university has suspended its relationship with the broker, National Anatomical Service of Staten Island, N.Y., pending a review by a university panel, Anderson said.
Emerging controversy
Tulane's experience with National Anatomical Service illustrates a growing tension within the medical community. At the center of the conflict are bodies donated to science, how they are used and who makes money from them.
These tensions came into hideous relief last weekend, when the director of the University of California-Los Angeles' body donor program was arrested by campus police, accused of illegally selling body parts to medical companies. Campus police raided the home of Henry Reid, searched his property for several hours and left with several boxes of evidence.
Since Reid's arrest, an alleged middleman has emerged, claiming to have cut up about 800 cadavers with the full knowledge of UCLA officials, according to news reports. The university disputes the account, saying Louis Marlin was an accomplice of Reid's in the grisly, illegal scheme.
Reid has also proclaimed his innocence.
On Tuesday, a lawyer for UCLA announced the school will stop accepting donated bodies until it completes an investigation into the claims that body parts were illegally removed and sold.
The UCLA case highlights the growing demand for human bodies and the loose regulations for dispersing them. On one end of the path are body and tissue donor programs. On the other end are the users of the bodies: These include not only university medical students who dissect the bodies, but also firms that use body parts to demonstrate new medical devices and biomedical companies that process body parts for use in surgery.
In the middle are the brokers and processors. These include John Vincent Scalia, chief executive of National Anatomical Service and the John Vincent Scalia Home for Funerals Inc. Technically, the bodies and body parts are not sold. That's illegal. But middlemen are allowed to charge processing fees.
Human body parts represent a big business. As part of its coverage of the UCLA case, the Los Angeles Times reported there are at least 50 surgical products made from human tissue, including skin, bones and heart valves. The products are used to fix broken bones, to make lips puffier and for a host of other things. Tissue banks typically obtain body parts from tissue and organ donors.
Instances such as the alleged thefts at UCLA are rare, Anderson said.
"Every profession has dishonest people," she said. "They live everywhere, and thank goodness they're the minority."
Anderson said Tulane has had a good relationship with National Anatomical Service, which is licensed in New York as a nontransplant anatomic tissue bank. One thing that concerns her, she said, is that a company could be making a big profit by brokering cadavers donated to Tulane.
"Anything beyond cost recovery is difficult to explain or accept," she said.
$1,000 a body?
How much money National Anatomical Service made from brokering Tulane's cadavers is not clear. Anderson declined to say how much Tulane charged Scalia for the six or seven bodies the Army says it used.
An article in the March issue of Harper's Magazine, however, reported the cost at $1,000 each for seven bodies, a total of $7,000. Fran Simon, a Tulane spokeswoman, would not confirm or deny that number.
The Army paid National Anatomical Service a little less than $30,000 for the "six or seven" cadavers, said Chuck Dasey, public affairs officer for the Army's Medical Research and Materiel Command in Fort Detrick, Md. That would suggest Scalia grossed about $20,000.
But Scalia disputes the Army's account, saying the Army did not pay him about $30,000 and that there weren't six or seven bodies involved. Scalia wouldn't say how many bodies were involved or how much the Army paid him.
Regardless, Scalia said, transporting the bodies was a laborious process. The company picked up the bodies in New Orleans and transported them in a refrigerated vehicle to several locations in Texas, keeping an escort with them at all times.
After the bodies were used, Scalia said, National Anatomical Service picked up the remains and cremated them before returning them to the university. The work was "so labor intensive that we've turned down other contracts with the Army" since then, he said.
Scalia, who said he transports about 800 bodies a year between institutions, defends his right to make money in the cadaver trade.
"We are a company," he said. "We get paid for what we do, and we're entitled to a fair return on our investment."
This is precisely what irks some critics. Annie Cheney, the author of the Harper's Magazine article who is also writing a book about the body trade, said potential donors should be informed about the dead body market and its middlemen.
"How would the family feel if they realized thousands of dollars were being made off of their loved one's body?" she said.
The law
With few exceptions, Louisiana law seems to prohibit not only selling medical cadavers, but also transporting them out of the state.
Louisiana Revised Statute 17:2280 states: "Whoever sells or buys bodies of deceased persons or parts thereof . . . or transmits or causes to be transmitted such bodies or parts thereof to any place outside the state" shall be fined up to $200 or imprisoned up to one year, or both."
The law grants exceptions for remains that are transported to medical conferences for use by doctors or dentists licensed to practice in Louisiana, or by anatomy teachers or researchers employed by Louisiana medical schools.
Stephen Russo, deputy general counsel in the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals' Bureau of Legal Services, said: "There's a good argument there that even the transmission (of a medical research cadaver) is a penal violation. It's a pretty easy reading."
Anderson said she had discussed the transport issue with the university's lawyers, who had said it was OK. John Beal, associate general counsel for Tulane University, said the university does not sell bodies and that it was therefore in compliance with the statute. When it was pointed out that the statute refers to anyone who sells bodies or transmits them or causes them to be transmitted, Beal declined to comment further, saying he did not have the statute available to read.
"I don't have it handy right now," he said.
Medical education?
The Army's experiments began in 2000, with follow-up studies over the next couple of years, Dasey said. He could not say precisely when the bodies from Tulane were used.
Tulane wasn't the only university that supplied cadavers for the Army tests, Dasey said. Louisiana State University-Shreveport also provided some bodies.
Derek Daniel, a spokesman for LSU-Shreveport, said body donors sign an agreement saying their corpses will be used for "educational and research purposes." The Army experiments would fall within that, Daniel said.
But Anderson said it's not the kind of work that Tulane's donor program envisions.
"That doesn't fit my definition of medical education," she said.
At least one medical ethicist agrees. Michael Meyer, a philosophy professor at Santa Clara University in California who has published papers on medical ethics, said, "How would you feel if your mother's body was donated to science . . . and she ends up being thrown on a land mine? This is not only ghoulish, but it's also ethically reprehensible."
Whether Tulane will continue its relationship with National Anatomical Service remains to be seen. Scalia said he and the university are discussing a contract that would define specifically how cadavers could be used. Anderson said her panel is still studying the situation.
Anderson added that she understands companies need a profit motive to encourage them to perform the work of transporting bodies. But she said a donated body should not be treated as a commodity. One issue, she said, is how to define what's a reasonable profit.
In the end, Anderson said, Tulane wants to be able to make its surplus cadavers available to medical schools that don't have enough of them.
"There needs to be a mechanism to make those donations available to other medical institutions," she said. "Otherwise, they can't educate their students." [Source]
quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: Also: The most extreme mutilation inflicted on dead enemies is cannibalism. Anthropologists usually make a distinction between ritual and culinary cannibalism. Ritual cannibalism, which is the more common type, involves the consumption of only a portion of a corpse (sometimes after it has been reduced to ashes) for magical purposes...
^This calls to mind, the 'cannibal texts' of Unas.
And that whole incident of an Asiatic enemy's heart consumed by the Pharaoh in honor of the baboon god, Babi.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: I am wondering why scholars and others are SILENT about AE bloody rituals,including human sacrifices .
Also why the sociologists are silent that this in fact was an integral part of the AE society and up till modern times.
Could it be such customs resemble those of black Africa a little too closely?
Note that one of the most famous and well known AE artifacts, the Narmer Palette portrays human sacrifice performed by Narmer himself.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ray2006: I am wondering why scholars and others are SILENT about AE bloody rituals,including human sacrifices .
Also why the sociologists are silent that this in fact was an integral part of the AE society and up till modern times.
Even New Agers or people proposing alternative views of AE history seldom discuss this..
As for the people telling us about the "wisdom of the AE or re-creating their ancient religion as an alternative to the current ones or the occult crowd like the Freemasons-all seem to underplay the bloody past of the AE society..etc..
One author that was not afraid to write about it with archeological proofs is EA Wallis Budge,especially in his 2 vol set books called "OSIRIS and the Egyptian Resurrection".Dover 1971,a reprint of the 1911 ed
See chap V, "Osiris and Cannibalism" chap VI,"Osiris and Human sacrifice,and Funeral Murders".
So even from pre-dynastic period ,even after the "fall of the AE society" it continued...
Also I take the view that their customs were to a degree in tune with what was being done elsewhere
ryb
Note- the Nubian kings,Meroitic Kingdom did likewise,thus...
IN THE MEROITIC KINGDOM human sacrifices WAS STOP AT LEAST FOR THE FOLKS WHO WERE CITIZENS. It was in the napatan period and earlier that this happen.
IT HAPPEN AGAIN in the post meriotic period but stop in the christian and later periods.
THE KINGS OF MEROE stop the custom of kings and queens of meroe to sacrifice themselves.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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The scene above on the Narmer Palette depicts the supposed Narmer figure sacrificing a vanquished foe.
Cheik Anta Diop in his Origins book made a striking parallel with West African, even Wolof sacrificial rituals in which the god-king celebrates his war victory by sacrificing a defeated enemy.
The king hands his sandals over to his loyal servant and goes barefoot because the ground on which the ritual takes place is made sacred. The servant also hold a kettle of water used for libations and ritual cleansing after the rite is performed. Many Egyptologists also agree that the ceremonial mace was a commom weapon used in sacrifice as it found buried in many elite predynastic tombs.
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posted
I blame this on the tendency of modern people to romanticize ancient civilizations. Let's be honest, if the pharaoh's Kemet survived to today, we'd think of it as yet another barbaric African despotism, like Idi Amin's Uganda, Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe, or Mobutu's Zaire. Kemet may have had outstanding architecture and art, but its social system was similar to that of a typical Third World shithole today.
Posts: 7093 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^Why not? I belive Underpants's point is valid too. When many laypeople think of Egypt, they always think of some peaceful Utopian place for some reason. They obviously haven't seen some of the tomb paintings in places like Abydos which show scores of enemies being sacrificed and their bodies mutilated.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
This idea of superposing a complex socio-culture of antiquity onto the contemporary socio-complex environments is downright utter nonsense. Kemet is, and ought to be learnt in its proper context, which in this case, is quite temporally dependent. At its peak, Kemet was one of the most advanced societies in the world; it is from the context of such a world that the progressiveness of this nation should be determined or judged; for example, what was the state of affairs in Europe, during the Old Kindgom in Kemet?
Historically, not everyone obviously looked at Kemet from a utopian lens, as exemplified by the unsubstantiated painting of a society where mass slavery of a targeted people was utilized to build a portion of its elite infrastructure, and one where its ruling elites have spearheaded military incursions into the territory of their southern neighbours, as well as the Levant. Hollywood, aside from the incessant romanticization of Cleopatra, has rarely produced a film showing Kemet or its ruling elites in a positive light. On the other hand, it is undeniably a cradle of socio-complex organization for a significant portion of the world, which has enticed early Euro scholars, gaining steam in the 19th and 20th century [and even today, in this regard there are some holdouts in the study of Egyptology], to place this socio-complex out of Africa.
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Archaeologists Dig Up "Oldest" Human Sacrifice Site
Location: El Kadada, Sudan, northeast of the sixth cataract of the Nile on the east side of the river.
February 15, 2008
El Kadada, Sudan - French archaeologists in Sudan say they have uncovered the oldest proof of human sacrifice in Africa, hailing the discovery as the biggest Neolithic find on the continent for years. The tomb of a 5,500-year-old man surrounded by three sacrificed humans, two dogs and exquisite ceramics were exhumed north of Khartoum by Neolithic expert Jacques Reinhold and his 66-year-old Austrian wife.
"This is the oldest proof of human sacrifice in Sudan, in Egypt, in Africa," Reinhold told reporters next to the remains in El Kadada village, a three-hour drive north of the Sudanese capital. "I don't know of another example in Africa at this level. . . We don't have anything as strong in other excavations in other countries," said Reinhold, as villagers in traditional white robes carefully scrapped earth into buckets. The archaeologist, who has led the excavation for several months, described the tomb as the most important Neolithic find in Africa since the 1990s. That period - which Reinhold calls the first global revolution - marks the period when man evolved from hunter gatherers into farmers and producers, forever changing the structure of human society. He says the find is nearly 1,000 years older what many consider Sudan's most spectacular discoveries of human sacrifice - scores of bodies buried together. Close to the Nile and highly fertile, the El Kadada area north of the modern town of Shendi would have been highly favourable for Neolithic settlers.
Reinhold and wife Ulla met in Khartoum and lived in Sudan for 25 years where he was director of the Section Francaise de la Direction des Antiquities. The French team said that urns, materials used to grind wheat into flour, beeds and bracelets also uncovered at the site will be donated to the National Museum in Khartoum. ( Reference)
My research:
Ancient Egypt
Sir. Leonard Woolley's excavation during the 1920s and '30s at Ur in modern-day Iraq revealed hundreds of sacrificial graves dating back to 2500 B.C. and related to the burial of Mesopotamian kings and queens. Evidence for sacrifice has also been seen in Nubian, Mesoamerican, and several other ancient cultures. It now seems clear that human sacrifice was practiced in early Egypt as was true in other parts of the ancient world. Archaeologists have been sifting through the dry sands of Abydos, Egypt for more than a century. Now they have found compelling evidence that ancient Egyptians indeed engaged in human sacrifice, shedding new—and not always welcome—light on one of the ancient world's great civilizations. (read full article here)
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: I blame this on the tendency of modern people to romanticize ancient civilizations. Let's be honest, if the pharaoh's Kemet survived to today, we'd think of it as yet another barbaric African despotism, like Idi Amin's Uganda, Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe, or Mobutu's Zaire. Kemet may have had outstanding architecture and art, but its social system was similar to that of a typical Third World shithole today.
I forgot to point out that although T-rex was right about one thing-- that modern people romanticize ancient Kemet too much and would ignore or disregard the more brutal aspects, ancient Kemet or any ancient or traditional African nation was NOT like the despotism you see in modern African nations!!
Note that in traditional African societies, although kings were concieved of as living gods, they were still obligated to treat their citizens with respect and to take care of the needs of their citizens, unlike the corrupt political leaders of modern Africa who obviously not only neglect their people but exploit them! Note also that almost all the modern African dictators were former officers in the colonial armies of the European nations that conquered them and in no way reflect the traditional values of the people but the crooked ways of their colonisers!
Let me also point out another crucial difference. In ancient Kemet as well as other traditional African nations, the warriors would indeed ritually mutilate their enemies as well as kill them. For example, ancient Egyptian soldiers would take the hands of their enemies as trophies-- a practice seen in modern African societies today. The enemies could be mutlitated in other ways such as castration etc. Those enemies that are executed are usually beheaded. The main thing that seperates these traditional customs from acts carried out today is that such mutilation and killing was carried out on enemy warriors. Today's African regimes would not only do this to enemy soldiers but innocent men and even women and children!!
So to suggest that ancient or traditional African brutality was the same as the savagery that goes on in modern Africa is incorrect! And such acts have alot to do with European influence than any actual African traditions!
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So to suggest that ancient or traditional African brutality was the same as the savagery that goes on in modern Africa is incorrect! And such acts have alot to do with European influence than any actual African traditions!
e.g, King Leopold's legacy of violence in the Congo.
.
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: So to suggest that ancient or traditional African brutality was the same as the savagery that goes on in modern Africa is incorrect! And such acts have alot to do with European influence than any actual African traditions! [/QB]
I agree.
Before racism was created black people were often seen as the people with the highest moral virtue, people from Homer to Ibn Battuta said this
I've read in the middle ages you'd be safer traveling through the Congo than traveling through almost anywhere in Europe
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
^ Perhaps. Although I don't think King Leopold alone accounts for the savagery that occurs in the Congo nowadays. I do believe as a whole it were European colonisers. Notice you don't hear about Africans carrying out intensely savage and dehumanizing acts until after European colonization. So something gave way.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: I blame this on the tendency of modern people to romanticize ancient civilizations. Let's be honest, if the pharaoh's Kemet survived to today, we'd think of it as yet another barbaric African despotism, like Idi Amin's Uganda, Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe, or Mobutu's Zaire. Kemet may have had outstanding architecture and art, but its social system was similar to that of a typical Third World shithole today.
I forgot to point out that although T-rex was right about one thing-- that modern people romanticize ancient Kemet too much and would ignore or disregard the more brutal aspects, ancient Kemet or any ancient or traditional African nation was NOT like the despotism you see in modern African nations!!
Note that in traditional African societies, although kings were concieved of as living gods, they were still obligated to treat their citizens with respect and to take care of the needs of their citizens, unlike the corrupt political leaders of modern Africa who obviously not only neglect their people but exploit them! Note also that almost all the modern African dictators were former officers in the colonial armies of the European nations that conquered them and in no way reflect the traditional values of the people but the crooked ways of their colonisers!
Let me also point out another crucial difference. In ancient Kemet as well as other traditional African nations, the warriors would indeed ritually mutilate their enemies as well as kill them. For example, ancient Egyptian soldiers would take the hands of their enemies as trophies-- a practice seen in modern African societies today. The enemies could be mutlitated in other ways such as castration etc. Those enemies that are executed are usually beheaded. The main thing that seperates these traditional customs from acts carried out today is that such mutilation and killing was carried out on enemy warriors. Today's African regimes would not only do this to enemy soldiers but innocent men and even women and children!!
So to suggest that ancient or traditional African brutality was the same as the savagery that goes on in modern Africa is incorrect! And such acts have alot to do with European influence than any actual African traditions!
I agree 100 percent. Just becuase Kemet sacrificed their enemies does'nt mean they were comparable to the ignorant African dictators of today. MANY Pharohs treated their citizens with respect and dignity such as Dojser, and Snefru whom were admired by their subjects....while a minority such as Akenaten and Rameses the 3rd rulled their Nation with an Iron fist and treated their subjects like turd.
Also like Dejehuti said the present leaders of Africa are WESTERN trained and served for European powers. Most of the rulers like those of South Africa are have nothing above a highschool education. Don't put the failures of Ignorant and Western appointed dictators on the Great Nation of Km.t.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
And let me point out that African Kindoms RULED by Africans in antiquity were some of the most peaceful and tolerable nations in the world.
Look at Axum, Ethiopia or Mali. Europeans, Jews, Arabs were ALL accepted in these Nations. The Kings of Axum when they adopted Islam can be EASILY compared to the Fatimid dynasty as the most liberal and accepting of an Islamic state. Hebrews not only made an intricate part of Mali, many Manusripts in Timbuctou are being found written in Hebrew telling about the cities wealth...NOTHING ABOUT CORRUPTION.
In the Kingdom of the Congo, they were amoung the first Chrstian Nation to appeal to slavery. The told the Portugese they felt slavery was an abomination to God and was morally wrong. funny how the ANGELIC Europeans destroyed the Congo for that....
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^^^^ Meant to put Kingdom of MAli(not Axum)...however Axum was a peaceful christian nation.
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