posted
Were the Kemetians and the Kushites both black in terms of religion, or color( race ie. black people).
Sometimes to me it seems religous, though others imply it as a racial bond at times.
...Or were they some weird combination of both like the White Supremacists who use white, the color, to insinuate - or straight up use it - as meaning Holly, / good, \ and pure; whilst using Black analigous to - bad evil & sick.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I think it was both. Remember, to translate the name for "Egyptians", it literally means the "Black people". Khem meant Black.......Hence you got the Bibilcal patriarch by the name of "Ham", or "Cham(according to literally Hebrew pronunication". I remember reading in a book called the "Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop that since Ham meant "burning, heat, hot, black, etc", and that because Egypt was one of the lands of "sun worship"(and also called "Khem"), that perhaps the name of "Khem"(Egypt) was in reverence to the patriarch "Ham", and the reverence of the worship of the sun. Hence, "Ham" and "sun" were one and the same............
I don't have direct quotations from the book off the top, but if you want me to get the book, I will. Also, it depends on if you believe the Biblical accounts or not. It it may be so that it is hard pressed to find correlation between Ancient Egypt and Biblical accounts at times.........However, remember that even Didiros(Greek classical author......I'm spelling his name wrong) said that Osiris was in fact "Misraim(Egypt), the son of Ham".........check it out for yourssself. Slalaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Unfortuantely, as you've seen by AMR's post the concept of 'black' can often times be obscured by silly semantics.
Most Africans are not even black in actual complexion but fall into various shades of 'brown'. While the Egyptians and Kushites were different peoples speaking different languages having different physical features they still had much in common as indigenous Africans.
One concept common to many Africans regardless of complexion is the positive symbolism and connotations held with the actual color black. In many parts of Africa, black was a sacred color that represented life, re-birth, fertility etc. Pretty much the opposite of negative connotations held by light or fair-skinned peoples like Europeans and other light-skinned Eurasians.
Because of this, the Egyptians often portrayed their most important gods as being pitch black in color or even real people whom they considered sacred or divine in black color. This is also the reason why the Egyptians called their country Kemet meaning the black place and themselves Kememu, Kemau, Kemetawy etc.
All of this was discussed in this past thread here.
Of course there are some folks who just can't comprehend this concept of 'black' being associated with all that is good. (especially some Arabized minds like you know who) So they get confused or are often in denial of the way 'black' meant to the Egyptians.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Unlike cultures of the Near-East and especially those of Europe, black did not embody the negative or bad like death, sorrow, evil, dirty, ugly, etc. On the contrary, it represented positive aspects, in particular it embodied the most sacred belief of the Egyptians which is that of re-birth and regeneration.
Many Egyptologists and early scholars made the mistake of taking the black painted statues and images of many tombs in into their own Western cultural concepts, and thought that they were simply "funerary" images of the "deceased." Many of these statues are actually representations of the ba, which is a spiritual aspect essential for the after-life, thus these statues don't represent death but life.
Ahmose-Nefertari, the divine queen
Ba-statue of Tut (the Ba was a significant spiritual aspect of a person)
two images of Tut, one being reborn
I remember Horemheb taking Wally's findings as a joke that the Egyptians saw themselves as being "under a black god." But in actuality this could very well be what the Egyptians believed in! Many early gods were depicted in the color black, again to symbolize the gods' powers of re-birth and regeneration, especially gods like Osiris and Isis. Even certain royals had the privilege to be represented in art as having a black color, whenever they are thought to attain a spiritual power or divine status.
Osiris, as Kem Wer (Great Black one)
This belief system of the color black being sacred is actually widespread throughout Africa, especially East and Central Africa. For example, in Kenya the Masai people worship their supreme god called Lengai or N'gai, who they call the Black God. Lengai, is opposed by an evil god of chaos who, interestingly enough, is called the red god! The Oromo's supreme god is Waaka who is also called Waaka Guuracha, which means Black God. Many of these peoples relate the black color to the color of the storm coulds that give rain, and to the soil that is rich and fertile. Black was a spiritual color associated with all that is good and divine.
Black God: The Afroasiatic Roots of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim Religions
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:originally posted by what box: Were the Kemetians and the Kushites both black in terms of religion, or color( race ie. black people).
What is black according to you? What was black according to Egyptians? Egyptians were Egyptians, only people who use "black" are americans and other diaspora who have adopted this from the "whites" who imposed this upon them. Most Africans don't use "black" to describe themselve, and most Europeans don't use "white" to describe themselves. Egyptians were humans who lived in a different time where notions such as "black" and "white" races did not exist, one thing for sure is that they walked upright and could speak and write therefore we can condlude that they were atleast human.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^^Ok, so in your op. they must uv used it religously. Seemed that way to me also.
quote:most Europeans don't use "white" to describe themselves.
Hey their the one who's idEer (sorry, too much stormfront) it was to use the terms black and white. And if you'd like to argue this then who imposed this upon them?? Europeans?
quote:one thing for sure is that they walked upright and could speak and write therefore we can condlude that they were atleast human.
Egyptians is a Greek term, dervied from House of the Spirit ptah. There was never in dynastic times a country called Egypt or a people called Egyptians.
But there were and ancient African people and country called Black, in their native language.
Kemet is THE WORD for Black in mdw ntr.
Osirus was called the Great Black.
He was not called the Great Egyptian...a term which would have had *no meaning.*
Everyone who participates in this website should understand this by now.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by What Box:Hey their the one who's idEer .
Correct. Europeans - invented the idea of white people.
Ancient African for certain, and likely Ancient Indians and others independantly invented the idea of referring to themselves as Blacks.
The idea that people all around the world need Europeans to observe and label differences in skin color, is just another example of Eurocentric 'goo' clogging African minds.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:originally posted by rasol: But there were and ancient African people and country called Black, in their native language.
You seriously believe that Egyptians called themselves "black" in relation to other people? Com'n we are are talking about a nation during antiquity not a "racial" community bickering as frequent in the American public.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by What Box: ^^Ok, so in your op. they must uv used it religously. Seemed that way to me also.
What I'm saying is that the color black held a deeply spiritual meaning
quote:most Europeans don't use "white" to describe themselves.
Hey their the one who's idEer (sorry, too much stormfront) it was to use the terms black and white. And if you'd like to argue this then who imposed this upon them?? Europeans?[/qb][/quote] Actually, many European groups did traditionally use the color white to describe themselves since white was also a color of spiritual symbolism for many Europeans since ancient times. In Europe, white = Good, pure, light, life, etc.
quote: Relaxx.
Indeed, this is something people (especially Euros) have a hard time accepting is the blatant use of the word 'black' by the Egyptians to describe themselves.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Djehuti: What I'm saying is that the color black held a deeply spiritual meaning
OK
quote:Actually, many European groups did traditionally use the color white to describe themselves since white was also a color of spiritual symbolism for many Europeans since ancient times. In Europe, white = Good, pure, light, life, etc.
I know, I was not opposing this, just waiting for Yonis to attempt to. So you DO think that there is a symmetry between Kemet's concept of black, and white people's concept of white?
I don't think throughout European history people have always connected color as: white\skin people | black\skin people
and I don't know if Kmt.wy { Is that right?} have color connected to a race concept as much as they do a religous.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Hence [KMT] logically means Black nation not black piece of land. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Psusennes I: Why nation? Surely a nation is a large area of land -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rasol lol. Now you are misdefining English words! Things must be getting bleak. Land is a geographical construct. A city, a community, a nation, is a social construct.
OK, I think all my Questions are. Kemet means Black(Holy)-Nation(Construct). I knew it didn't mean black soil.
Then again it raises a question as to why they didn't simply use the term Nter t, if it meant holy nation? Jus tryin to get to the truth.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
To always use color symbolism as it applies to color of flesh would be inaccurate. Different black/white color symbolism does not always correlate to skin coloring.
What about Ausar[Osiris] being painted Green?
What about Obatala in the Ifa tradition being called Cheif of the white cloth? Should we say that color symbolism with Obatala has a skin color conection?
Most so-called ''black'' Africans are not even pitch black coloring but really a deep dark brown.
I made a thread earlier asking when the term Kmt came into use,and such a question is still relevent. For a completely black nation would not really have to emphasis their color unless they were contrasting themselves with lighter individuals around them.
I know of many African groups such as the Igbo that have different words to designate lighter skinned individuals amongst them.
Even if we accept that the term Kmt refers to skin coloring then what of the reddish brown coloring on most of the artwork? Why are there scenes of people painted as green and blue? Why not all the artwork painted in the same coloring as Ausar[Osiris] and why is he sometimes painted green?
From what I read from this website most ancient Kemetian divinities has the flesh of gold:
According to Egyptian belief, the flesh of the gods was gold. Their bodies were made of other precious materials, such as silver and lapis lazuli (a deep blue, gold-flecked stone).
I am not taking a stance because in the study of ancient Kmt you can never be certain on anything. We only have pieces of the puzzle that we have to put together. Nobody really has any definite answers.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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The Kmtyw were not the dshrtyw; otherwise we wouldn't have the dshrtyw in the first place.
The ancient Egyptians were the Kmtyw, which goes without saying, that they therefore weren't the dshrtyw.
Were the kmtyw literally 'km'? Likely not, but again, were the dshrtyw literally 'dshr'? Likely not.
So why would the kmtyw use 'kmt' as a national identity, when they could have been aware of generally darker or lighter people who were not the kmtyw? Well, to the kmtyw, 'km' was also 'sacred', and as such, they viewed their nation as 'sacred'.
They didn't look at 'black soil', and said voilŕ, we have 'black soil'; let's call our nation 'black soil'. 'soil' is to be found nowhere in the term 'kmt', as has been tirelessly shown here.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Maybe the Egytians recognized "Black" as a "race" the same way Blacks do today in America.--"Black"= cultural designation, mindset, black culture etc. I dunno
Posts: 290 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:^ In western culture white is and anology for pure and good.
In Kemetic culture black is and analogy for perfect and complete.
The meanings are often mutually inclusive, not either one or the other.
When Osirus is the Great Black - it is his skin which is black, it is black which is perfect, it is Osirus which is perfect... ...This is what Africans have learned.
2x2 = 5 or 3. It can never be 4.
^ This is what we must unlearn if we are ever to 'get to the truth'.
OK, I get it. The meanings mutually inclusive, like blue = sad & white = holy/pure. Indeed a "complet[ing]" post. Thanx rasol.
quote:Supercar: What Box, I believe these concerns were addressed here before, when brought them up before; recall this?.. AE Symbolism of color darkness?
Yes, I remember it. Then I was referring to art, and "blacker" symbolizing more power,
recently I was inquiring wether the term "black", or "kem", was added to AE's or their Nation to make it "Holy", "Devine", or "Black",
NOW, I understand.
quote:Look, we have the Kmtyw and the dshrtyw.
The Kmtyw were not the dshrtyw; otherwise we wouldn't have the dshrtyw in the first place.
The ancient Egyptians were the Kmtyw, which goes without saying, that they therefore weren't the dshrtyw.
Were the kmtyw literally 'km'? Likely not, but again, were the dshrtyw literally 'dshr'? Likely not.
So why would the kmtyw use 'kmt' as a national identity, when they could have been aware of generally darker or lighter people who were not the kmtyw? Well, to the kmtyw, 'km' was also 'sacred', and as such, they viewed their nation as 'sacred'.
They didn't look at 'black soil', and said voilŕ, we have 'black soil'; let's call our nation 'black soil'. 'soil' is to be found nowhere in the term 'kmt', as has been tirelessly shown here.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ In western culture white is and anology for pure and good.
In Kemetic culture black is and analogy for perfect and complete.
The meanings are often mutually inclusive, not either one or the other.
When Osirus is the Great Black - it is his skin which is black, it is black which is perfect, it is Osirus which is perfect.
If you said that Osirus was merely perfect, and not black, this would be false.
if you said that Osirus was merely black and not perfect, that would also be false.
Osirus = Black = perfection.
In Kemetic dialectics they are all the same.
This should not be difficult to understand.
Yet it is beyound the grasping of the poluted western mind.
Why?
In the ws.t dialectic black is and insult, a badge of shame.
Therefore black can never be perfect, and the km.t can never be black...
In a nutshell!
Kmtyw viewpoint is the exact opposite of that of western Europeans, who unit themselves with "diasporan" Euros anywhere in the world, under the banner of 'western'. Just us 'whites' consider themselves to be white, and view 'white' as symbolic of 'good' while 'black' symbolized the opposite, the Kemetians saw themselves as 'black', meaning dark skin people, and saw 'black' as a symbol of 'good' and 'sacredness', while 'dshrt', comparable to 'whites' [largely referenced to Asiatics], was seen as the opposite.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Different black/white color symbolism does not always correlate to skin coloring.
I agree, but nowhere is it implied color symbolism *always or only* applies to skin.
For example - the Km.t applied the color red via the word dshr.t [red - noun] to Asiatics.
They also applied the same word to the crown of Ta Mehu....lower Egypt.
In the former case the skin color of the people is referenced as red, in the later case, the crown of lower Egypt itself is red.
The false premise of ws.t is that *black can never* relate to skin color as it pertains to AE.
quote:What about Ausar[Osiris] being painted Green?
Actually as EW Budge notes - there are even examples of Osirus painted white. Budge compared this with the tradition in Southern Sudan of painting one's skin white to sybmolize death.
But Osirus is not - the Great white, or the Great Green is he? Nor do white nor green represent the AE, their ancestors, or perfection.
quote:What about Obatala in the Ifa tradition being called Cheif of the white cloth? Should we say that color symbolism with Obatala has a skin color conection?
Why would you associate 'white cloth' with skin color as opposed to the color of the cloth?
A better analogy is that shown white cloth wherein the cloth is white - would you deny the cloth is white?
quote:Most so-called ''black'' Africans are not even pitch black coloring but really a deep dark brown.
All color is relative and subjective.
By most common color constructs - no absolute black, nor red, nor yellow nor white people exist.
You say Africans are a deep dark brown as if it some sort of objective fact.
It is not.
In physics color is mere illusion the reality of which is millions of discrete frequences or wavelengths in the electromagetic spectrum.
The names we assign these frequences are illusory.
There is no possible basis for determining where one color name might begin and another might end.
As for brown, it does not even exist in some languages/cultures.
quote: I made a thread earlier asking when the term Kmt came into use
I recall that and never understood this question.
Km.t is simply the word black.
How would you denote the origin of such a basic word, which would likely be lost to the remotest antiquity far beyound the formation of the mdw ntr?
I thought perhaps you meant to ask when was this term 1st used as a reference to peoples?
quote:For a completely black nation would not really have to emphasis their color unless they were contrasting themselves with lighter individuals around them.
We have already shown that the km.t contrast blacks with reds just as many other africans do and for the same reasons.
All that is distinct is that in a nile valley context
- Africans are black,
- Asiatics [Aamu], and later Libyans were red.
quote: I know of many African groups such as the Igbo that have different words to designate lighter skinned individuals amongst them.
Exactly!
This is another example of African color dialectics referencing skin color, so it further emphasises and normalises Nile Valley color dialetics.
Notice that in the case of the Igbo, Westerners don't tie themselves into rhetotical knots attempting to deny this either.
This leaves them in the untenable position of admitting the Igbo referenced skin color - and then "denying" that the Kemetians did likewise.
quote: Even if we accept that the term Kmt refers to skin coloring
Km.t is the world black, that is all, it might be applied to many things including skin color.
It is very simple.
I maintain that this simple notion is made hard to understand by one thing only:
The anti-Kemetic ie - anti-Black bias of modern ws.t and Arab mindset.
quote:then what of the reddish brown coloring on most of the artwork?
Can you produce and authentic reference in the mdw ntr to 'reddish-brown'(?). Reddish-brown is a regurgitation of western rhetoric existing almost soley in reference to egyptian art.
Those same westerners look at that same color in human skin tone and label it black every day.
Time to start thinking past their hypocrisy instead of repeating after it.
quote:Why are there scenes of people painted as green and blue?
Are you refering to Kemetians, or Nigerians, or Zulu or Khoisan?
Are you saying that if the Zulu considered themselves black and the Khoian red...they would have to paint themselves as literally jet black, and paint the Khoisan as literally blood red?
Moreover they would have to do this all the time, and never paint themselves any other color for any reason?
quote:Why not all the artwork painted in the same coloring as Ausar?
This question implies you are admitting that Osirus was generally portrayed as darkest black, as opposed to green or purple or what have you.
If you admit this, why would it be necessary to show that he was *never* portrayed in any other color?
How would this alter Osirus identification as the Great Black - ancestor of the Km.t --- the Blacks.
What a substantial counter argument actually requires is proof that the Km.t also called themseves 'greens', 'blues' or 'purples', not simply examples of black people painting themselves in different colors which might be found anywhere in Africa.
quote:From what I read from this website most ancient Kemetian divinities has the flesh of gold.
According to Egyptian belief, the flesh of the gods was gold. Their bodies were made of other precious materials, such as silver and lapis lazuli (a deep blue, gold-flecked stone).
Yes, I agree, the gold symbolised eternity, probably because of rust resistent properties of the metal for which it is reknowned.
Of course this leads us to the Kemetic word for gold - which is - Nub.t [gold/noun], and is the actual basis of the corrupted ws.t concept of Nubia.
But that's a whole other example of the same 'isue' isn't it? Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:SuperCar: Kmtyw viewpoint is the exact opposite of that of western Europeans
Exactly! And this is very obvious if you examine both dialetics ob-ject-ive-ly.
To expect Westerners - who in their movie, the Mummy, even portray the Beja [Nubians!] as white Europeans *to admit this* is simply naive.
Once Km.t is acknowledged by them to be of value - they must/needs remake it in their own image, like their Nordic fantasy of Jesus Christ, and image many Africans worship to this day.
That's just what they do. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^^Yes, Rasol has hit the target in terms of Egyptian color dialectics!
Black does not necessarily have to mean literal color, since most if all Africans are not really actual black in color (some might argue southern Sudanese and other equatorial Sahelians, but another issue) but the point is it's symbolic significance.
The exact same is said with Europeans. No Europeans are actually white in color unless they are albino, yet 'white' also holds a symbolic significance in European belief of being positive and black the opposite-- negative.
Unfortunately certain Arab beliefs also follow the similar thought patterns of white--pure/good and black--dirty/bad which is why even some African minds who are Arabized just don't get it.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Wow.......good stuff Rasol. Also, Supercar said, "the Kemetians saw themselves as 'black', meaning dark skin people, and saw 'black' as a symbol of 'good' and 'sacredness', while 'dshrt', comparable to 'whites' [largely referenced to Asiatics], was seen as the opposite. "
Super, that is on target! Truth! Wow..........Also, Jehuti and WhatBox, ya'll made some good points. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: To expect Westerners - who in their movie, the Mummy, even portray the Beja [Nubians!] as white Europeans *to admit this* is simply naive.
Hilarious, but that's Hollywood for you.
Tell me about it. In lit. & films just got through The Mummy Series! I'm glad that at least we're on Indiana and the (racist) Temple of Doom, and Ark of the Covenant.
And now that I think about it S.C., I should have posted this in the other thread and not made two. Reiteration is one of the leading problems on this forum. I apologize.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Actually, if you are referring to the way the Medjay were depicted in The Mummy movie series, I believe they were going for an 'Arab' Bedouin type look.
Apparently someone didn't bother to tell them that the Medjay were classified as 'Nubians'!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
This off topic but since it come up in this thread just a few posts ago I thought I might make aware that since whites have adapted Vodoun (et al) they have made Obatala into a white skinned being.
Since these whites have religious positions of authority and they write the books and field the interviews, it's only a matter of time until standard references on Vodun related African systems of spirituality are hailed as an introduction of white people else Obatala wouldn't be a white skinned deity in a world of very dark skinned peoples.
posted
My point with using Obatala as an example was to clarify that black/white symbolism is not always attached to skin coloring. Sometimes these meaning are more abstract than just skin coloring. Anybody who interprets white symbolism with Obatala as white skin cannot grasp the deeper understanding or has a agenda. I am aware of these people,alTakruri,and one of the reasons I would not recommend teaching Europeans such knowledge.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:I agree, but nowhere is it implied color symbolism *always or only* applies to skin.
For example - the Km.t applied the color red via the word dshr.t [red - noun] to Asiatics.
They also applied the same word to the crown of Ta Mehu....lower Egypt.
In the former case the skin color of the people is referenced as red, in the later case, the crown of lower Egypt itself is red.
The false premise of ws.t is that *black can never* relate to skin color as it pertains to AE
I cannot read mdu ntr but I have never seen the term dshr.t used unless it reffered to the desert areas. Do you know of any examples where dshr.t is used in conjunction with the term Aamu or any other foreigner?
quote:Actually as EW Budge notes - there are even examples of Osirus painted white. Budge compared this with the tradition in Southern Sudan of painting one's skin white to sybmolize death.
But Osirus is not - the Great white, or the Great Green is he? Nor do white nor green represent the AE, their ancestors, or perfection.
The origin of Osiris[Wsir] is attached to a deity in the Delta called Andjety which was a local fertility deity. We don't have any definite proof of his existence in pre-dyanstic times nor that he was a ancestor deity. His references are first attested in the Pyramid Texts dating to the 5th dyansty. Budge's assertion that Wsir[Osiris] was a ancestor deity could be correct so I am not easy to dismiss it.
Whatever symbolized death to the ancient Kemetians was considered positive not negative. Death to them was seen a circular that never ended but went in a cycle.
quote:Why would you associate 'white cloth' with skin color as opposed to the color of the cloth?
A better analogy is that shown white cloth wherein the cloth is white - would you deny the cloth is white?
Obatala's color is white and represents purity and attaching a skin color to this would be inaccurate. I simply mentioned Obatala because the white/black symbolism does not always correlate to skin coloring like many suppose.
quote:All color is relative and subjective.
By most common color constructs - no absolute black, nor red, nor yellow nor white people exist.
You say Africans are a deep dark brown as if it some sort of objective fact.
It is not.
In physics color is mere illusion the reality of which is millions of discrete frequences or wavelengths in the electromagetic spectrum.
The names we assign these frequences are illusory.
There is no possible basis for determining where one color name might begin and another might end.
As for brown, it does not even exist in some languages/cultures.
I agree with the following but still the way Ausar[Wsir] is depicted contrasts with how the ancient Kemetians drew themselves.
quote:I recall that and never understood this question.
Km.t is simply the word black.
How would you denote the origin of such a basic word, which would likely be lost to the remotest antiquity far beyound the formation of the mdw ntr?
I thought perhaps you meant to ask when was this term 1st used as a reference to peoples?
Yes, my question was meant to enquire when the term Kmt was first used as a collective people. Using the term collectivley to reference skin coloring only makes sense if they had lighter people surrounding them.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
To me that's like saying they couldn't see what their colour was unless there was someone around of a different colour.
The British described themselves as white as an angel but all round them were nothing but other white peoples.
But it's true that not much lighter people were near enough to them and were always drawn to the delta for what it could offer over hard times back home.
KM.t even as a written word goes back to the old kingdom when A3mw were "hacked up" by the kings of those times and forced to mine in the Sinai.
As a spoken word going back into pre dynastic time lighter people were still attracted to the delta if some of the conquest palettes or early artworks depict A3mw and theres no reason that littoral "Libyans" would all need to have more darker than medium complexions.
The origin of Osiris[Wsir] is attached to a deity in the Delta called Andjety which was a local fertility deity. We don't have any definite proof of his existence in pre-dyanstic times nor that he was a ancestor deity. His references are first attested in the Pyramid Texts dating to the 5th dyansty. Budge's assertion that Wsir[Osiris] was a ancestor deity could be correct so I am not easy to dismiss it.
Whatever symbolized death to the ancient Kemetians was considered positive not negative. Death to them was seen a circular that never ended but went in a cycle.
I highly doubt that Ausar existed as a real person, and even if he had actually lived in a remote period, his person must have been highly mythified over the ages, making him amongst those mythical kings.
To get an idea of some mythical Kings on the Kings list, recall on:
"A total of 16 "groups" can be distinguished (clicking on the links below will take you to a hieroglyphic transcription and a translation of that particular group):
1. I,x - I,21: Ptah and the Great Ennead
2. I,22 - II,3 : Horus and the Lesser Ennead (?)
3. II,4 - II,8 : the spirits
4. II,9 : a mythical group of kings
5. II,10 : another group of mythical kings (?)
6. II,11 - III,26/27 : 1st to 5th Dynasty
7. IV,1 - IV,14/15 : 6th to 8th (?) Dynasty
8. IV,15/17 : 1st to 6th (or 8th ?) Dynasty
9. IV,18 - V,10 : 9th and 10th Dynasty
10. V,11 - V,18 : 11th Dynasty
11. V,19 - VI,3 : 12th Dynasty
12. VI,4 - X,12/13 : 13th and 14th Dynasty
13. X,14 - X,21 : 15th Dynasty (Hyksos)
14. X,22, X,30 (?) : a group of non-identified kings
15. XI,1 (?) - XI,15 : a group of probably Theban kings contemporary with the Hyksos (17th Dynasty ?)
I agree with the following but still the way Ausar[Wsir] is depicted contrasts with how the ancient Kemetians drew themselves.
It contrasts because, Ausar was a deity, i.e. a neter. Again, 'black' in Ancient Egypt, as we had touched on in the Osiris El thread some time back, was seen as 'sacred' and had an undertone of 'eternity' to it. Remember, one of the focus points of that topic, with regards to Anubis, with the head of a jackal, and depicted in 'black'?
quote:Originally posted by ausar: My point with using Obatala as an example was to clarify that black/white symbolism is not always attached to skin coloring.
I agreed, and added that on one ever stated that all color symbolism is relevant to skin color.
quote:Anybody who interprets white symbolism with Obatala as white skin cannot grasp the deeper understanding or has a agenda.
I agree with this as well, but don't understand the relevance of your comment. The Obatala reference is to white cloth, not white skin, and since the cloth referenced is white...it actually *is* a literal reference, and so actually contradicts your point.
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: The origin of Osiris[Wsir] is attached to a deity in the Delta called Andjety which was a local fertility deity. We don't have any definite proof of his existence in pre-dyanstic times nor that he was a ancestor deity.
Of course not. He is a God ancestor, not a historical figure. Even if you assumed Osirus existed as and individual there is no earthly reason to imagine that his portraiture would be 'accurate'.
The whole point is that he is represents for the Kememuo their ancestry. It's who they are and from what and whence they originated. He is depicted not only as Black, but as 'the' Black...black of the most literal and absolute form.
And of course it is symbolic, in that no one is ever literally that black.
In this sense all references to dark skinned people as black is symbolic.
There are only two ways to portray blacks.
1) Dark skinned people of various shadings who are called 'black', in which case the reference is symbolic even if the skin tones are realistic.
2) Literally black skinned portraiture called black. In which case the reference is literal but the skin tone in the portraiture is symbolic.
How else exactly can dark skinned peoples be black?
Once again we have fallen into the Eurocentric trap of mystifying something simple, [where that something is black] in order to evade comprehension of it.
2x2 -> but never be 4.
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posted
Guys, Ausar isn't referring to a physical existence as a person in the pre-dynastic period, but as a God that was worshipped.
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The English word desert does not derive from the Rn KM.t word dshr.t
DSHR.t is a noun that means red thing from DSHR, an adjective. The Worterbuch has 3 pages worth of DSHR/dshr words, including one for Set the original "red devil."
Desert ultimately derives from the Latin desertum meaning abandoned thing, forsaken.
While the desert sand can be red the Rn KM.t words for a desert are nw.x3st x3s.t.X3ST mrw.x3st zmy.t.x3st
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Col4: k-m.tnwt d-sh-r.tnwt AKH [Black community. Red community.
Col5: (+kh)scroll n t-nplural HQA.wplural RA [Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!
The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection, and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.
Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with "spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds. Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity. First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .
The NWT ideogram means neither people nor land. This has been explained a few times already and there's a post in the archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean community in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always appears as the determinative following the name of a city. There are other ideograms for land terms (KM.T + N18 and DSHR.T + N25) for instance. That's why I reject NWT's use in this text as "land."
Now if one wants to take black as meaning literal black skin, then go ahead. I recognize a range of skin tones among blacks and also recognize the difference as used in Africa between blacks and reds, both of whom may be African, and blacks and reds where reds means coloureds and whites. As an example, in medieval Arab writings they class themselves as reds in distinction to black Africans of Biled es Sudan but as blacks in distinction to red/white Eurasians like Persians, Slavs, etc.
So, in this sacred text is another example of dshr.t not being applied to any desert or even any outland.
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: Guys, Ausar isn't referring to a physical existence as a person in the pre-dynastic period, but as a God that was worshipped.
Osirus isn't "just" "a" God.
He is the ancestor of the Km.t.
Reread my earlier post on the topic.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The English word desert does not derive from the Rn KM.t word dshr.t
DSHR.t is a noun that means red thing from DSHR, an adjective. The Worterbuch has 3 pages worth of DSHR/dshr words, including one for Set the original "red devil."
Desert ultimately derives from the Latin desertum meaning abandoned thing, forsaken.
While the desert sand can be red the Rn KM.t words for a desert are nw.x3st x3s.t.X3ST mrw.x3st zmy.t.x3st
Thank you.
Dshr.t is not desert.
That is another 'white lie' of Egyptology.
Dshr.t is red.
When the Egyptians wail against the Dshretu invading into delta - they are talking about the Aamu asiatics - red people.
They are not talking about desert sand covering up the delta - ridiculous!
The KM.t speak across the ages and tell us that 2x2 is 4. And we reject their words in deference to the 'white lies' and ludicrous excuses of Egyptology. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Indeed, this is something people (especially Euros) have a hard time accepting is the blatant use of the word 'black' by the Egyptians to describe themselves.
Indeed. I find that some 'horn' Africans have this problem too. They know they're black people but try to avoid referring to themselves as such because 'black' people today often evokes an image of the stereotypical 'sub-saharan' African. I think it's a mixture of envy and confusion on the part of the North Africans. This is probably because in the new world (post-slavery, post-colonisation), 'sub-saharan' Africans (and thier descendants in the diaspora) seem more progressive and they (horn/north Africans) are not too comfortable with this FACT Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: Indeed. I find that some 'horn' Africans have this problem too. They know they're black people but try to avoid referring to themselves as such because 'black' people today often evokes an image of the stereotypical 'sub-saharan' African. I think it's a mixture of envy and confusion on the part of the North Africans. This is probably because in the new world (post-slavery, post-colonisation), 'sub-saharan' Africans (and thier descendants in the diaspora) seem more progressive and they (horn/north Africans) are not too comfortable with this FACT
Herukhuti,
No, it's the other way around. Since 'light' skin color is considered beautiful today, I do belive Sub saharan African feel "threatened" by these people.
I have never heard or seen people from Horn Africa feel ashamed of their skin color. They are very proud of their cultural heritage. Just walk around in the big cities in Europe and you'll see Somali women wearing their tradition costume--but you will very seldom see other African countries.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This off topic but since it come up in this thread just a few posts ago I thought I might make aware that since whites have adapted Vodoun (et al) they have made Obatala into a white skinned being.
Since these whites have religious positions of authority and they write the books and field the interviews, it's only a matter of time until standard references on Vodun related African systems of spirituality are hailed as an introduction of white people else Obatala wouldn't be a white skinned deity in a world of very dark skinned peoples.
Is this for real? Man, YORUBA people are still alive and well (20 million plus) they must be having a laugh trying to make Obatala into a white being LOL!!! that's the most rediculous thing I've heard in a long time!!!
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Herukhuti: Indeed. I find that some 'horn' Africans have this problem too. They know they're black people but try to avoid referring to themselves as such because 'black' people today often evokes an image of the stereotypical 'sub-saharan' African. I think it's a mixture of envy and confusion on the part of the North Africans. This is probably because in the new world (post-slavery, post-colonisation), 'sub-saharan' Africans (and thier descendants in the diaspora) seem more progressive and they (horn/north Africans) are not too comfortable with this FACT
Herukhuti,
No, it's the other way around. Since 'light' skin color is considered beautiful today, I do belive Sub saharan African feel "threatened" by these people.
I have never heard or seen people from Horn Africa feel ashamed of their skin color. They are very proud of their cultural heritage. Just walk around in the big cities in Europe and you'll see Somali women wearing their tradition costume--but you will very seldom see other African countries.
Light skinned & dark skinned people have always been considered beautiful by un-damaged/normal humans so it's not that relevant to my point.
I never said they weren't proud of thier culture/costumes. Many Nigerians can also be seen (even more so) across Europe wearing their traditional clothes and are VERY proud of thier culture.
Funny you'll say that sub-saharan Africans feel "threatened" by horn Africans but I was going to use the same word (though in reverse). I find that everywhere I go (even online), I meet north/horn Africans who are 'uncomfortable' with my presence (I don't tend to get this problem with 'white' people much) . I've heard other sub-saharan Africans say the same thing. I GUESS YOU HAVE TO BE AFRICAN TO REALLY DETECT THIS ONGOING (THOUGH SUBTLE) WAR.
Also, the prominence of NIGERIANS all over the planet seems not to sit too well with other Africans (even sub-saharan Africans). I think it's because we Nigerians are just so damn hot (in any context ).
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Were the Kemetians and the Kushites both black in terms of religion, or color( race ie. black people).
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Europeans?![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Relaxx.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I knew it didn't mean black soil. 
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