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No, the original Berber populations were not ''white'' and many of the modern Berber groups are not white but different variations of brown. The lightest of the Berbers tends to the the ones located in the Kabylia in Algeria and the Riffian area in northern Morocco. Other Berbers are either a very light brown and sometimes a dark brown like Tuaregs.
The term Berber was something coined by Greco-Romans to refer to the whole North-wastern African populations but its not what individual Berbers call themselves. Most groups have their own names for themselves that usually translate as ''Free people''.
If you go primarily off skeletal remains in north Western Africa you have the Metha-Afalou,Taroflat, and others. The tool complex that existed in this region was the Capsian. Possibly the following are ancestral of the modern Berber speaking populations.
If you go by the ancient Egyptians own depictions the first Libyans called Tehennu were depicted as dark brown;while the latter Tamahou were shown with fair skin and the occasional light eyes and hair. If any of these populations mentioned are ancestral to the modern Berber speakers is unknown.
If you want a good English book on the Berbers I suggest The Berbers by Michael Brett Elizabeth Fentess.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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^^'Berber' is a language group whose original speakers were black! Today, Berber speakers vary in physical appearance but many are still black.
As Ausar says, there are indeed white Berber speakers like the Kabyle and Riff and these may very well be descendants of the Tamahou or 'white Libyans' whom the Egyptians described in the New Kingdom. Later Greco-Roman geographers describe these peoples as Leuco-aethiopes literally meaning 'white ethiopians'!
quote:Originally posted by sshaun002: They are what most would call "white people"; Indigineous White Africans. Is this correct?
LOL That would depend on what you mean by "indigenous". The white Berbers certainly have been living in that part of Africa for a long while but they definitely did not originate there! There is no such thing as a white population aboriginal to the African continent. In fact these white Berbers are among the peoples with high rates of skin cancer along with white Australians. Of course it's because their fair skin cannot handle the African sun.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Berber" is a very LOOSELY defined term referring primarily to a group of peoples, cultures and languages that were identified in North Africa upon the arrival of the Arabs. The geographical extent of these groups covers an area LARGER than the continental U.S. from Morocco to Egypt and Tunis to Niger. In a sense you could call this cultural complex the North African pastoral desert nomadic complex. Much of the confusion comes from the fact that MANY researchers seem to START with Berber history as being the result of INVADERS from Rome, the Levant or Europe as being the BASIS of the Berber population. HOWEVER, this only applies to a SMALL area of the TOTAL landmass covered by the Sahara and a SMALL percentage of the ACTUAL historical populations of North Africa. THEREFORE, as in the book by Mr. Brett and Ms. Fentress, you almost get the impression that the Berbers, their language and culture originated with FOREIGNERS who migrated to North Africa. Therefore, it is easy to get the impression (purposely or otherwise) that Berbers and Berber cultures are WHITES or originated with WHITE Africans. None of this is the case.
The TRUTH is that WHITE Berbers are but a SUBSET of the historical African populations of North Africa going back prior to 10,000 years, when the Sahara was wet. As everyone should know, Africans have a history of pastoralism that involves whole groups that migrate place to place in search of grazing land and fertile soil. The migrations of INDIGENOUS African people is a PRIMARY factor in MUCH of Africa's history (and world history) and North Africa is no DIFFERENT in that respect. As with ALL humanity, the ORIGINAL population of ALL parts of Africa started out in East Africa and migrated elsewhere. Once the Sahara dried up, many of those present migrated once again, many to the Nile Valley and Sudan, many towards the Niger Delta and Central Africa and others West towards what is now Morocco and North to the coast. Many more STAYED in the Sahara, adapting to the conditions there and seeking out the oases for water and farmland. Those who were CLOSEST to the Mediterranean were the ones who were MOST likely to be exposed to populations from Europe and the Levant. The North African pastoral nomadic complex is just SIMPLY an ADAPTATION of the OLDER African pastoral complex that already existed in Africa. There is NO NEED to explain the natural adaptation for survival in the desert as being the result of people from elsewhere. Like anything else, nature forced people to adapt or die, which they did.
Many of the populations from the Sahara actually developed cultural complexes and civilizations that are PURELY indigenous to Africa. The civilizations of Egypt, Libya and the Sahel are all testament to cultural impact of populations in the once fertile Sahara. In fact, the oldest Berber language in existence is Tifanagh, which is a system of writing practiced by the Tuaregs, which is considered part of an ancient Libyan language family thought to have originated from the Phonecians. HOWEVER, this is GROSSLY oversimplifying the issue as the Phonecian alphabet ITSELF derives from Proto Sinaic script that was derived from Egyptian heiroglyphs. http://www.answers.com/topic/phoenician-alphabet Therefore, it is possible, that inasmuch as the ancient Libyan script is partly derived from Phonecian scripts, it derives from the Egyptian language as well, which all are part of the Afro-Asiatic language family. http://www.answers.com/topic/phoenician-alphabet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language Therefore, the Tifinagh script is an INDIGENOUS form of script that exists within the Afro Asiatic family of languages. So, while there ARE similarities to Phoenician languages, it should be remembered that it is ALSO similar to OTHER AfroAsiatic languages because it IS an Afro Asiatic language and therefore it does NOT imply FOREIGN origin.
Next, the culture of North Africa in ancient times PRIMARILY derived from the populations of the Sahara during the wet phase and those civilizations they helped to form during the dry period. These include Kush, Egypt, Libya, Numidia, Garamante and others. Therefore, there are MANY cultural elements of modern Berbers that can be traced to these origins. Once again, the CONFUSION comes about because of the fact that these people have "similar" styles of living as those in places like the Levant. But as I said before, pastoralism and nomadism is PURELY indigenous to Africa and ADAPTATION to the desert was a NECESSITY brought about by nature itself, not FOREIGNERS. Just like those in Arabia ADAPTED to the DESERT along SIMILAR lines. This does not MEAN that the lifestyle of North African desert pastoralists ORIGINATED with foreigners.
Suffice to say, there are WHITE Berbers and in the coastal parts of North Africa they are the main "indigenous" Berber groups. HOwever, this does not and should not CHANGE the fact that "Berber" culture and language is INDIGENOUS to Africa and ORIGINATED with black Africans who adopted to a desert environment in North Africa. Many of the cultural traits in jewelry, weaponcrafting and clothing are traditions PURELY INDIGENOUS to Africa and Black Africans, like Indigo cloth and the swords of the Tuaregs. The styles of jewelry and the creation of COLORFUL textiles is again an ANCIENT practice found THROUGHOUT Africa and can be found from Morocco to Ethiopia. Therefore, there is NOTHING that should lead one to assume that Berber culture, people or language ORIGINATES with WHITE Africans or foreigners, as it is PURELY an indigenous development, with SOME Berber groups being WHITE as well.
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Something about "Berbers" that just seems to be perplexing, given the constant barrage of questions that have been answered over and over again.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by sshaun002:
They are what most would call "white people"; Indigineous White Africans. Is this correct?
LOL That would depend on what you mean by "indigenous". The white Berbers certainly have been living in that part of Africa for a long while but they definitely did not originate there! There is no such thing as a white population aboriginal to the African continent. In fact these white Berbers are among the peoples with high rates of skin cancer along with white Australians. Of course it's because their fair skin cannot handle the African sun.
Certainly the 'white' skin tone found among "Berber" speaking groups in coastal west Africa, is not a development of African natural environment, but those who carry African mrca lineages, certainly are indigenous. Why should they not be?
"Early southern Egyptian/Nubian and Saharan remains are clearly a part of the Saharo-tropical range of variation. Northern modern Berber-speakers are frequently notably "European," in phenotype but even they have tropical African "marker" gene frequencies greater than those found in southern Europeans. "Blacks" have long lived in northern Africa (see review in Keita 1990)." - S.O.Y. Keita, 1993.
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A good example of how BLACK African culture and ingenuity is identified as originating with WHITES or OTHERS instead of Africans:
quote: In the 1880s Europeans began to import tanned leather from North Africa. "Moroccan" leather became popular among Europeans, who didn't realize that this leather was often made in Kano, then taken north to Morocco along well-established trade routes. Kano leather workers are still famous for their high-quality goods.
Keep in mind that this trade was originally based on African traders travelling across the sahara from North to South and East to West bringing many crafts and artifacts from various places in Africa to the coast for trade in Arab lands and Europe. This part of African history is ancient and goes beyond the advent of Arabs as a major force in North Africa, yet because of the influx of Arabs as well as the slave trade MANY of BLACK Africa's indigenous crafts and traditions have been identified with Arabs or North African WHITES.
quote: The city is divided into fourteen quarters, each presided over by a headman, and inhabited by separate sections of the community. It is probably the greatest commercial city in the central Sudan. Other towns, like Zaria, may do as much trade, but Kano is pre-eminent as a manufacturing centre. The chief industry is the weaving of cloth from native grown cotton. Leather goods of all kinds are also manufactured, and from Kano come most of the "morocco leather" goods on the European markets. Dyeing is another large trade, as is the preparation of indigo. Of traders there are four distinct classes. They are: (I) Arabs from Tripoli, who export ostrich feathers, skins and ivory, and bring in burnouses, scents, sweets, tea, sugar, &c.; (2) Salaga merchants who import kola nuts from the hinterland of the Guinea Coast, taking in exchange cloth and live stock and leather and other goods; (3) the Asbenawa traders, who come from the oases of Asben or Air with camels laden with salt and "potash" (i.e. sodium carbonates), and with herds of cattle and sheep, receiving in return cotton and hardware and kolas; (4) the Hausa merchants. This last class trades with the other three and despatches caravans to Illorin and other places, where the Kano goods, the "potash" and other merchandise are exchanged for kolas and European goods. The "potash" finds a ready sale among the Yorubas, being largely used for cooking purposes. In Kano itself is a great market for livestock: camels, horses, oxen, asses and goats being on sale.
quote: The crafts of the country Barth found very unevenly distributed. The most important of them were spinning, weaving, dyeing, tailoring, smithing, pottery, and leather-working. The women did the spinning and some of the pottery, but the rest of the work was performed by the men. The cloth trade, which was mainly centred upon Kano but whose ramifications spread far and wide, was very highly developed. Locally woven materials, particularly when dyed and embroidered, were in great demand all over the central and western Sudan, the Sahara, and even parts of North Africa. Indeed, the skill of the Kano, craftsmen was so highly prized that a re-export trade developed, coarse European cloth being imported across the Sahara and then, after being prepared for the African market, sent on to new destinations 10. The smiths were also skilled craftsmen and worked silver, copper, and alloys, as well as iron. Apart from agricultural implements, there was a brisk demand all over the Sudan for weapons, bits, stirrups, and women's ornaments. For smelting there was plenty of iron-bearing rock to be found in Hausaland, but the quality varied appreciably. Barth reported, for example, that the iron smelted round Kano was much inferior to that of Sokoto. No doubt that is why many sword blades were imported from Europe. Even so, the Kano blacksmiths retained a share in the trade, for they set the blades and re-exported them at a profit 11. On the other hand, there were no deposits of copper and metal had to be imported from Darfur 12. As for tin, though Northern Nigeria is now one of the leading producers in the world, there seems to have been little trade in it during the nineteenth century, probably because the Plateau where it is found was then still dominated by suspicious and intractable pagan tribes. Of the other towns in the Empire, only Bida in Nupe could rival Kano for the skill of its craftsmen. In the cloth trade, though the Bida weavers could not equal the glossy navy turbans produced in Kano, their men's gowns and women's wraps were held in equal esteem and were indeed exported through Kano, Katsina, and Jega to the other great markets of the Sudan 13. In addition to cloth, Bida was famous for its silver, brass, glass, and beads 14. The main products of the brass and silver smiths of Bida were sword and dagger hilts, horse trappings, bowls, jugs, dishes, ladles, anklets, bangles, necklaces, and rings. Artistic decoration, as well as superior workmanship, helped to give these articles their special value. For the manufacture of some of them a form of cire perdue casting was employed which was probably introduced from Benin 15. The glass-workers of Bida, who always seem to have been a self-contained group, cherish a tradition that they came originally from Egypt. They passed through many cities in the course of their travels, but did not stop until they found a spot where the soil was suitable for the pursuit of their craft. The place, they say, was Nupe and the time the reign of the first Chief Tsoede 16. Whatever their origins, they brought to Bida a craft which was practised nowhere else in the central Sudan. Their main products, bangles and beads, were consequently in great demand.
quote: The skin popularly known as Morocco leather comes from goatskin from Sokoto. It was erroneously given the name "Morocco leather" because, until recently, it reached Europe through Moroccan traders who bought them from Nigerian caravan traders across the Sahara Desert. Excellent leatherwork and calabash carvings are produced in Kano and, Oyo.
What I find is that those Europeans who KNOW better purposely have been OBSCURING the origins of BLACK African arts and crafts and their impact on the West. For example, in a prior thread, I mentioned the idea of the name of Marrakesch (an important trading post founded by the Almoravids), as being called land of the Kouch men, meaning black men. However, that seemed odd to me, considering that Kouch in my mind conjures images of sofas and seats. Then, while looking at the leather working industry of Nigeria, I realized that Pouffes or leather footrests and seats, are "Kouches" that are a tradition in Nigeria. Yet when we SEE these Pouffes, they are called Moroccan and people thus assume they originated with WHITE Berbers....
All I am saying here is that MUCH of the traditions of the Berbers in arts and crafts ORIGINATED in the areas of Nigeria, Senegal and Southern Mauretania and elsewhere, but MANY people are DISTORTING the TRUTH about this history in order to DENY the fact that BLACK Africans were CRITICAL players in this industry. I am ONLY skimming over the surface here as this tradition in the regions of Kano, Oyo, Sakoto are HARDLY known outside of those "in the know", while MAINSTREAM publications still try and push NONSENSE about traditions of arts and crafts being FOREIGN to Africa or Africa NOT HAVING any sort of "industries". Historically, the Black Africans in the various regions of Nigeria had guilds who were known for work in various specialties: general leather, leather clothing, weapnos and armor, furniture, jewelry, cloth, weaving for rugs, metalwork for jewelry, weapons, etc and so forth and so on. In fact MANY of the societies from the Moorish/Islamic period were organized around castes of workers in various specialties. And this is from the TIME when the Moors from the South, like the Almoravids, were solidifying the trade networks with these southern regions that would have introduced such crafts and designs into the Moorish culture. Yet, erroneously, people want to identify this culture with WHITE Africans on the extreme coast. Like I said, MORE research on this part of Africa NEEDS to be done in order to REWRITE the history of African traditions in crafts, clothing, jewelry and leatherworking and how the Moors introduced this to the Arab and European world. In this day and age of information on demand, there is NO excuse for such FACTS of history NOT to be researched and disseminated to its fullest extent.
Also, it is COMMON for many of these people to say that they got their traditions from Egypt or Sudan. Of course the Europeans DISCOUNT this, but of course what else would you expect? A common theme in West African history is to try and connect ANY semblance of "civilized" culture with WHITES or other foreigners who REINTRODUCED African culture BACK to Africa from OTHER parts of Africa like Egypt and Sudan. This CONTRADICTS the history of migrations of peoples from East to West in Africa. This contradicts the histories of the PEOPLE themselves which talk of their origins in the East and the ancient trade networks between them. Europeans ALWAYS talk about trade between Egypt and Punt and other "Southern" places in Africa, yet suddenly this TRADE never REACHED BLACK Africans? What kind of NONSENSE is that? Much of the history written by the Europeans during the 17th-20th century is FULL of such RACIST distortions and bias.
quote: Whilst the Egyptians and the Romans were the first to develop trade with the area, it was the work of Leo Africanus, a Moor, whose Arabic work, The History and Description of West Africa (translated by John Pory in l600) which made Europe aware of this region's trade and culture. Although some of this initial work was later discounted (for example, he got the flow of the River Niger wrong), he did achieve much and conveyed accurate descriptions of the land and its people, herds of' cattle and the wealth of activities of the already prospering Hausa merchants and craftsmen, and there can be no doubt that a relatively high standard of living and culture existed. This was later confirmed by the brilliant work of the British-sponsored German explorer Heinrich Barth. Whilst most of his brave contemporaries could only confirm the 'white man's grave' myth he travelled throughout the region during 1851-4 accurately describing much that remains unchanged today such as mud-walled towns containing flat-roofed Nubian, North-African styled houses and the use of shadoofs in the dry season, etc.
The main crops were guinea corn, millet and rice supplemented by groundnuts, onions, beans, yams and sugar cane. The cash crop was cotton and indigo. Crafts observed by Barth and still practised in almost every village are pottery, spinning, weaving and dyeing. Smiths worked in gold, silver, copper and iron, the last being most important for the manufacture of implements and weapons. In Bida, a small town situated 250 miles to the south of Sokoto, there is a group of glass workers. The sand is probably responsible for this craft's establishment, but its workers treasure the belief that their methods originated in Egypt.
Tanners and leather workers existed in every main community, the principal areas being Kano and Sokoto. The quality of raw goatskin in Nigeria has always been best in Sokoto, slowly decreasing in standard as one moves eastward. The skins are dark red-haired in Sokoto, lighter red in Kano, white and black and white in Maidugari. Sokoto has always produced the best ironware as well as the finest leather, used in Europe since mediaeval times.
It is probably very difficult to prove links between ancient Egypt and today's Kano and Sokoto tanners due, again, to the lack of written records. However, this may be possible to some extent if cave paintings at Birnin Kudu (near Kano) can be linked with other ancient markings found in a central Saharan mountain range. In trying to outline the origin of the production of Sokoto native-tanned goatskins I have ventured a little out of my depth in an effort to confirm my belief that the basic tanning method could have been conveyed direct to Hausaland by the Egyptians, or that it reached them later by way of North Africa or Arabia. The original trans-Saharan camel train trade was developed with exchanges for fezzes and prayer mats when Islam was founded, but tanning must have been practised prior to this event. The trade further increased with the change of trading direction when the Atlantic sea routes opened about 1900. Today, the situation has been reversed yet again with trans Saharan air transportation. The time lag was shortened from six months to three, and now to six hours, Kano to Gatwick.
posted
Of topic but I just saw the movie "sahara" with Matthew McConnaghy and Penelope Cruz and it depicted Taureg as people of the desert. No more no less and it accurately reflected the people known as Taureg.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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I think that we may be discounting the existence of "white" Africans without having enough evidence. We know for example that the mutation that causes light color in Europeans is not the same as he mutation that causes light color in East Asians. Any one can see that East Asians are for the most part need not claim a European origin just because they are light and we need not unneccisarily jump to the conclusion that light color is not indigenous to Africa.
Another thing to take into account is that populations can also migrate in a radiating pattern i.e all directions. There is no need to think that the population that founded "whites" could not have originated in Africa and that both groups could not have found environments where they were isolated enough from darker populations to both become independantly white.
-------------------- Think first Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
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I understand your point. However, MOST people that claim that Berbers are white START by talking about the historic migrations of people from the Levant, Greece and Rome as the basis of these "white" Berbers. Some people also claim the opposite. However there is NO evidence of WHITE skin originating in Africa amongst INDIGENOUS Africans unmixed with NON Africans. Also, look at the location of the historic home of "white" Berbers. It is ALONG the coast of North Africa near Europe and where there there is AMPLE evidence of foriegn populations.
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quote:Originally posted by kifaru: I think that we may be discounting the existence of "white" Africans without having enough evidence. We know for example that the mutation that causes light color in Europeans is not the same as he mutation that causes light color in East Asians. Any one can see that East Asians are for the most part need not claim a European origin just because they are light and we need not unneccisarily jump to the conclusion that light color is not indigenous to Africa.
Another thing to take into account is that populations can also migrate in a radiating pattern i.e all directions. There is no need to think that the population that founded "whites" could not have originated in Africa and that both groups could not have found environments where they were isolated enough from darker populations to both become independantly white.
^^LOL Sorry but bad hypothesis, considering that those same white Berbers today suffer from sunburn and even skin cancer at almost the same rate as white Australians! Why? Because the mutation for white skin among Europeans was not only unharmful but benificial for living in cold, glacial environments the type of environment that Europe was during the Ice Age. So the situation is the exact opposite-- there is no logical reason to think white populations evolved in Africa.
Simply put, white skin is NOT indigenous to any part of Africa! It has already been explained ad-naseum that white Berbers are descended from Northwestern European ancestors that crossed the Straits of Gibralter from Spain!
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kifaru: I think that we may be discounting the existence of "white" Africans without having enough evidence. We know for example that the mutation that causes light color in Europeans is not the same as he mutation that causes light color in East Asians. Any one can see that East Asians are for the most part need not claim a European origin just because they are light and we need not unneccisarily jump to the conclusion that light color is not indigenous to Africa.
Another thing to take into account is that populations can also migrate in a radiating pattern i.e all directions. There is no need to think that the population that founded "whites" could not have originated in Africa and that both groups could not have found environments where they were isolated enough from darker populations to both become independantly white.
^^LOL Sorry but bad hypothesis, considering that those same white Berbers today suffer from sunburn and even skin cancer at almost the same rate as white Australians! Why? Because the mutation for white skin among Europeans was not only unharmful but benificial for living in cold, glacial environments the type of environment that Europe was during the Ice Age. So the situation is the exact opposite-- there is no logical reason to think white populations evolved in Africa.
Simply put, white skin is NOT indigenous to any part of Africa! It has already been explained ad-naseum that white Berbers are descended from Northwestern European ancestors that crossed the Straits of Gibralter from Spain!
Your skin cancer hypothesis is invalidated by the fact that there climate of Portugal and Spain is not much different than that of North Africa. That being the case then why have whites not disappeared from Iberia. I would say that although unhealthy skin cancer does not limit the capacity to breed and occurs after decades of sun damage. Migratons from northern Europe may explain why some berbers are prone to skin cancer yet it does not eliminate that the berber population is not descended from indigenous africans that happen to be light colored.
Take note: I am not saying light as a Scots man but more like light as say a Filipino or a Chinese.
Take note having some Northern European ancestry does not explain their color either unless you are talking about a huge infusion. I am not aware of any berber specific DNA markers but if what I have seen they seem to have large amount s European mtdna. I can hardly believe that the European females were so preferred that they had that much of a phenotypic impact that they removed the descendants of pure berber male and female couples. For instance I am the color of cinnamon but I have a maternal white german great-great-Grandfather and a very light colored paternal great-Grandmother. I would expect that there would be a much greater mix of complexions in all areas of berber habitation than what we see as opposed to the gradual lightening and then darkening as we radiate away from the Sahara.
I think we need more DNA evidence before discount that some groups of berbers are not just inherently light as opposed to being made light by mixing.
Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by kifaru: Your skin cancer hypothesis is invalidated by the fact that there climate of Portugal and Spain is not much different than that of North Africa. That being the case then why have whites not disappeared from Iberia.
LOL Skin cancer among these people is not a hypothesis but a FACT. Also, do you really think Spain and Portugal which are farther north have the exact same climate as Algeria?! And in anway, most folks of southern Iberia are of darker so-called "Mediterranean" features anyway!
quote:I would say that although unhealthy skin cancer does not limit the capacity to breed and occurs after decades of sun damage.
Wrong. Overexposure to ultraviolet light can also damage a growing child and even a developing fetus as noted by physical anthropologist Jablonsky et al. Which is why she states "Our early ancestors had to black in order for them to survive in Africa".
quote:Migratons from northern Europe may explain why some berbers are prone to skin cancer yet it does not eliminate that the berber population is not descended from indigenous africans that happen to be light colored.
LOL It depends on how light colored. True there are light complexioned indigenous Africans like the Pygmies and Khoisan but non approaching what we call 'white'!! Also, the Berber population IS descended from indigenous Africans also as noted by the high frequency of paternal E lineages!
quote:Take note: I am not saying light as a Scots man but more like light as say a Filipino or a Chinese.
Chinese vary in complexion depending on the region of the country and Filipinos in general tend to be about as dark as many Hispanics of Latin America. Trust me, I know!
But all that is irrelevant since China is not a tropical country and while the Philippines is, ethnic Filippinos are not aboriginal to the area.
quote:Take note having some Northern European ancestry does not explain their color either unless you are talking about a huge infusion. I am not aware of any berber specific DNA markers but if what I have seen they seem to have large amount s European mtdna. I can hardly believe that the European females were so preferred that they had that much of a phenotypic impact that they removed the descendants of pure berber male and female couples. For instance I am the color of cinnamon but I have a maternal white german great-great-Grandfather and a very light colored paternal great-Grandmother. I would expect that there would be a much greater mix of complexions in all areas of berber habitation than what we see as opposed to the gradual lightening and then darkening as we radiate away from the Sahara.
Which is why a persons color says nothing about their lineage. Do you know how many white Americans there are who look no different from Western Europeans but carry African ancestry?!
quote:I think we need more DNA evidence before discount that some groups of berbers are not just inherently light as opposed to being made light by mixing.
The DNA evidence says all that we need. The point is, 'white' Berbers are white because of European ancestry as white skin is maladaptive to African climates.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kifaru - your argument for native whites of Africa is and example of what is known as special pleading, or argument by begging.
ie - please believe in native whites of africa.
But you actually provide no evidence in support of your contention, and fail to refute the evidence against it.
The reference to "East Asians" is self defeating.
Some North East Asians are lightly pigmented due to adaptation to a high latitude low UV climate, which do not exist in Africa, and even then they aren't leucoderm [white].
Even some arctic peoples such as Eskimo retain significant pigmentation because according to Nina Jablonski, their vitamin D rich diet eliminated the sole biological utility for dipigmentation - so they simply retained some of their skin color.
There is no extreme low UV environment in Africa, there are no African genes for leucoderm, and the only leucoderm Africans are those who provably have heavy West European ancestry.
So that is very sound, and objective reason for stating that leucoderm is not native to Africa.
To give substance to your claims you must produce native African genes for leucoderma, and native white Africans with little to no European ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I understand your point. However, MOST people that claim that Berbers are white START by talking about the historic migrations of people from the Levant, Greece and Rome as the basis of these "white" Berbers. Some people also claim the opposite. However there is NO evidence of WHITE skin originating in Africa amongst INDIGENOUS Africans unmixed with NON Africans. Also, look at the location of the historic home of "white" Berbers. It is ALONG the coast of North Africa near Europe and where there there is AMPLE evidence of foriegn populations.
The majority of the maternal ancestors of the NorthWest African Berbers must have come from Europe and the Near East since the Neolithic - JC Rando, 1998 Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Northwest African populations
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Kifaru - your argument for native whites of Africa is and example of what is known as special pleading, or argument by begging.
ie - please believe in native whites of africa.
But you actually provide no evidence in support of your contention, and fail to refute the evidence against it.
The reference to "East Asians" is self defeating.
Some North East Asians are lightly pigmented due to adaptation to a high latitude low UV climate, which do not exist in Africa, and even then they aren't leucoderm [white].
Even some arctic peoples such as Eskimo retain significant pigmentation because according to Nina Jablonski, their vitamin D rich diet eliminated the sole biological utility for dipigmentation - so they simply retained some of their skin color.
There is no extreme low UV environment in Africa, there are no African genes for leucoderm, and the only leucoderm Africans are those who provably have heavy West European ancestry.
So that is very sound, and objective reason for stating that leucoderm is not native to Africa.
To give substance to your claims you must produce native African genes for leucoderma, and native white Africans with little to no European ancestry.
You haven't done so.
Likewise, you trying to point out what you percieve to some flaw in my logic forces you into a cascade of logical fallacies. Stop and think for a second that I am not trying to threaten your beliefs so you need not attempt to belittle my questions. You and some others here have so much invested into your ideology that you disregard any possibility of there being an expalnation for what you hold so dear other than what you already believe. You're as bad as Eurocentric scientists who argue that "there no way them negroes could have built them pyramids. Everybdy knows negroes ain't that smart" and "the reason why those egyptian statues have big lips and wide noses is because the didn't have sharp enoough chisels to get the facial features right."
My "argument for native whites" as you put is no argument at all it is in fact me stating that there are reasons to wait until the science community determines whether or not that light color in these populations is the result of a mutation that causes light color similiar to the two separate mutations that cause light color in Europeans and east Asians respectively.
I don't know what your academic training is but I have an engineering degree and I know that you can interpret data a lot of different ways. You seem hellbent on showing your backside instead of looking at possiblities that you may not have considered. Before you go out and parse my response and attempt to show you are supeior how about this:how about not showing your backside and start out like this. "Well Kifaru I don't think that there is any need for a massive infusion of female European dna to cause this type of phenotypic shift." Being an asshole on the internet does not show you are intelligent. It shows that your an asshole on the internet. How about using your verbal skill to teach a little. Oh and put down your debate book tough guy.
Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
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Very useful thread, since this question of natural skin tone variations keeps coming up almost daily. If one were to examine light skin pigmentation genes in the likes of northern Eurasians, I think one will realize that these are in a state of linkage disequilibrium. They are a response to latitudinal UV radiation and vitamin D levels [latter, i.e. vitamin D can be regulated via both exposure to UV radiation and diet], and not simply a product of mere random mutation, that may occur in individuals suffering from albinism.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Likewise, you trying to point out what you percieve to some flaw in my logic forces you into a cascade of logical fallacies.
Name them? Somehow in your enraged ranting you managed to not name a single one. Why is that?
Ironically you then proceeded to commit and endless string of quite specific logical fallacies.
So I'll point them out one by one [no doubt further enraging you]
quote: You and some others here have so much invested into your ideology that you disregard any possibility of there being an expalnation for what you hold so dear other than what you already believe.
^ Fallacy - Ad hominem personal attack.
quote: You're as bad as Eurocentric scientists who argue that "there no way them negroes could have built them pyramids.
^ Fallacy - flawed analogy, and again personal attack.
quote: Everybdy knows negroes ain't that smart"
Logical fallacy appeal to emotive language.
quote: and "the reason why those egyptian statues have big lips and wide noses is because the didn't have sharp enoough chisels to get the facial features right."
Logical fallacy non-sequitur.
quote:My "argument for native whites" as you put is no argument at all
translation: When asked for evidence, you produce no evidence at all, because you don't have any.
That's why you focus on personal attacks.
Isn't that a fair assessment?
quote: it is in fact me stating that there are reasons to wait until the science community determines whether or not that light color in these populations is the result of a mutation that causes light color similiar to the two separate mutations that cause light color in Europeans and east Asians respectively.
Logical fallacy burdan of proof. You must produce the requested evidence, not tell us to wait due to your 'reasons' which are *your* problem, and not evidence.
quote:I don't know what your academic training is but I have an engineering degree
Logical fallacy - false appeal to authority. Your engineering degree is completely irrelevant to this discussion, and only relates to us your wounded ego.
quote: and I know that you can interpret data a lot of different ways.
Logical fallacy non-sequitur - you've provided no data, no interpretation, and no refutation of the data we've provided.
You did precisely two worthless things:
1) attack me personally.
2) make and excuse for not having any data or answering any questions.
quote: You seem hellbent on showing your backside instead of looking at possiblities that you may not have considered.
^ Logical fallacy - emotive language, i'm getting bored with you, so let's finish this....
Here is what you should do if you want us to take you seriously.
1) answer the questions. 2) produce evidence.
Now, try again, and you better make sure every sentence you write does one or the other.
Consider it and engineers excercise in semantic efficieny, as opposed to empty noise and thick smoke, which is all you've shown us so far.
Very useful thread, since this question of natural skin tone variations keeps coming up almost daily. If one were to examine light skin pigmentation genes in the likes of northern Eurasians, I think one will realize that these are in a state of linkage disequilibrium. They are a response to latitudinal UV radiation and vitamin D levels [latter, i.e. vitamin D can be regulated via both exposure to UV radiation and diet], and not simply a product of mere random mutation, that may occur in individuals suffering from albinism.
^ Correct. And the unusual conditions that produced white people in Europe, simply do not exist in Africa, where white skin is maladaptive - ie - selected *against*.
By 1.2 million years ago, all people having descendants today had exactly the receptor protein of today's Africans; their skin was black, and the intense sun killed off the progeny with any whiter skin that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein. - (Rogers 2004:107).
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yes there is skin color variation in Africa that is completely indigenous and has nothing to do with gene flow:
Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80. Related Articles, Links Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Relethford JH. Department of Anthropology, State University of New York College at Oneonta, 13820, USA.
Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.
A perfect example of this would be the Pygmies and Khoisan populations. Pygmies have light brown skin and Khoisan have yellowish brown or 'caramel' complexion.
However, what pigment variation exists for populations in Africa correlates with the range and environment and is all adapted to the tropical to subtropical climates of the African continent! Pygmy habitation is in heavily forested areas with more shade, while the Khoisan live to the far south just below the Tropic of Capricorn. All areas fall into the range of tropical to sub-tropical climate.
The mutation or development of leucoderm or 'white' skin color in Europeans was trait that was not harful but in many cases benificial to the ancestors of Europeans who lived in more northerly polar environments with less sunlight, and this was especially true of the Ice Age.
Leucoderm or 'white' skin however is totally maladaptive to the latitudinal and climate ranges of Africa i.e. tropical to subtropical. Which is why Jablonsky et al. stated: "Any progeny whose skin was too light was killed of" (natural selection against white skin in Africa). And this is the very reason why White Berbers at the Northern edges of Africa must cover their bodies to protect themselves from the sun, and why they suffer from things like sun burn and skin cancer the same way white South Africans at the southern edge of the continent also suffer from the same problems. Lightly put, white skin is NOT indigenous to Africa!
In fact, the only time that 'white' skin ever occurs naturally in Africa without admixture from Europe is in the case of Albinism which is a radical mutation. In such cases, today we have clothing and medical care that might help these people survive. Back then, these people would be as good as dead.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Jablonski and Chaplin show that, as modern humans migrated away from the equator to Europe, Siberia, the Arctic, and Beringia, the paleness adaptation compensated for decreased solar ultraviolet. This left them with the light brown or beige complexion common to everyone above the 55th parallel except Europeans." - Frank W. Sweet
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Location: The Rendille lead a peaceful nomadic life in north central Kenya. They cling to a nomadic life of herding camels, goats and cattle. Harassed constantly by the more powerful groups of Oromo and Turkana, these people lead an extremely harsh existence. Some sources also report problems with the Somali, but the Somali have had a relatively benevolent view of eh Rendille as distant relatives.
History: Before 1500, the ancestors of the Rendille were part of the same people and speaking the same "Somaloid" or Proto-Somali language with the ancestors of the Somali, Sakuye and Gabbra people. This people were already organized round a complex camel culture at that time. This included an extensive ritual calendar, based on dual lunar and solar calendars involving ceremonies for the well-being of camels and humans.
quote: The songs we're listening to are part of the Almado festival -- a New Years celebration taking place this month in the desert along Kenya's border with Ethiopia. Celebrating Almado are the Gabra, a nomadic people whose very survival depends on the strict ritual observance of their annual calendar.
"Almado is a fire festival which marks the beginning and the end of the solar new year."
Aneesa Kassam is a Professor of Anthropology at the University of Durham in England.
"It is one of the most important rituals of peace and expiation celebrated in the whole year. It is a ceremony through which peace is restored. But more than this, it plays a very important role in the way that the Gabra record time. They begin counting 365 days following Almado. The Gabra are able, in this way, to keep track of the seasons and can predict when the rains will come. Based on this count, they move their herds to different pastures. A miscalculation can result in the tragic loss of livestock. So Almado is basically a festival which marks the beginning and the end of the annual cycle of time."
The Gabra are a pastoral nomadic group of Camel ancient camel herders, a sister culture of the Massai, etc. These excerpts show how the inidgenous culture of Nomadism and pastoralism ADOPTED the camel as a result of the need to adapt in the face of nature and not because of "Arabs". It also shows the relationship between the ancient cultures of the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile Valley.
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The Gabra are a sub-group of the Oromo (or small related group, depending on how you see them) moreso than a sister to the Masaai (they speak an East Cushitic language - whether your classify it as a dialect of Oromo or a language on its own is a political matter).
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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translation: When asked for evidence, you produce no evidence at all, because you don't have any.
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