posted
Nice pictures! At least this picture spam thread has to do with the subject of ancient Egyptians, since the Beja are the Egyptians' closest relatives!
There was an interesting site I found a couple of years back that played movie clips of the Bisharin tribe of the Beja..
Sadly, I cannot find it anymore. I think the site was done away with. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Very nice pictures but all of those Beja are divided into different tribes like for instance the Bisharin have intermarried with some Bilen and not all the those pictures that Yom showed were Ababda Beja but mostly all of them were Beni Amir and Hedareb which are in Eritrea and look no different than the rest of the population of eritrea like for instance i dont know why he forgot to mention but a few of those Beja were from the Tigre Tribe they dress the Same and are Bejas as well but dont speak Tebadawi. I have a question for YOm since he is Ethiopian do u consider those Beja Tigre Beni Amir Hedareb to look Habesha.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: Bisharin again. This photo is cropped - I can't find the full one, but his brother has more of the stereotypical Beja phenotype and afro.
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Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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Yom its funny that when im in Sudan these brothers are called Beja Bishariin Ababda the same as in Egypt but once u go to Eritrea these brothers are called beni Amir Hedareb Tigre u really can tell the difference as i have been to Sudan Eritrea & Egypt and all those brothers resemble the people of Eritrea as a whole and u can tell they have affinities with the people of the horn.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Prince of Punt so is the Cushitic group only spoken by people in the horn or is there Cushitic speakers in South and West and NOrth AFrica.
Beja langauge's relationship with other Cushitic languages, is cautiously placed as being a distant relative. Some even place the language on its own. In south-east Africa, yes, south Cushitic languages are spoken.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Prince of Punt so is the Cushitic group only spoken by people in the horn or is there Cushitic speakers in South and West and NOrth AFrica.
Beja langauge's relationship with other Cushitic languages, is cautiously placed as being a distant relative. Some even place the language on its own. In south-east Africa, yes, south Cushitic languages are spoken.
Correct. Beja is either it's own linguistic branch from Afro-Asiatic or a distant part of the Cushitic branch.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Very nice pictures but all of those Beja are divided into different tribes like for instance the Bisharin have intermarried with some Bilen and not all the those pictures that Yom showed were Ababda Beja but mostly all of them were Beni Amir and Hedareb which are in Eritrea and look no different than the rest of the population of eritrea like for instance i dont know why he forgot to mention but a few of those Beja were from the Tigre Tribe they dress the Same and are Bejas as well but dont speak Tebadawi. I have a question for YOm since he is Ethiopian do u consider those Beja Tigre Beni Amir Hedareb to look Habesha.
I doubt the Bisharin have intermarried with the Bilen, since the Bilen live in N. Eritrea, while the Bisharin are in N. Sudan (not NE, but far north, and in Egypt, too). The ones from the Red Sea hills may have been Beni Amer, I don't really know, but I'm sure that I did not post any Ababda. You are mistaken on that point, Hikuptah. The bottom two from Eritrea probably are Hedareb, though. The only difference I can see (aside from the Bisharin) is that the Hedareb seem to be lighter than the (original?) Beja living in the Red Sea hills from the few pictures (2) I have seen, but this is probably not accurate. Yes, Beja do look like Habeshas, though each region has a certain look to it (you can tell a Beja from a Habesha from a Somali). I am also aware of the Tigre-speaking Beja. The Tigres were a serf class to them, so the word "Tigre" came to have that meaning ("serf," not slave), even though many have adopted their language.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Yom its funny that when im in Sudan these brothers are called Beja Bishariin Ababda the same as in Egypt but once u go to Eritrea these brothers are called beni Amir Hedareb Tigre u really can tell the difference as i have been to Sudan Eritrea & Egypt and all those brothers resemble the people of Eritrea as a whole and u can tell they have affinities with the people of the horn.
I can't really tell the difference, but the Bisharin seem to be more Arabized, both in blood and culture, than the other groups. The differences in names are not due to regional variants, but just the names of different tribes, all subsets of the Beja ethnicity (e.g. Darods and Isaaqs are equally Somalis).
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Hey, what specific study says the Beja are the closest approximation to what the ancient egyptians looked like instead of sudanese?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Does "instead of sudanese", contrast sudanese with beja, or sudanese with ancient egyptians?
Anyway early European anthropologist like Seligman said the Beja represented the archtype found in the AE iconography....*but* stipulated this on the assumption that Beja were *hamites* - meaning black skinned white men, and not true negroes.
Champollion also said that the ancient Egyptians came from Ethiopia and resembled the Beja more than the Copts.
We know that the Beja are related to the Medijay, the Medijay are portrayed similarly to the AE and were allied to Kemet when the the new kingdom was founded based upon the ousting of the Hyksos.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Prince of Punt so is the Cushitic group only spoken by people in the horn or is there Cushitic speakers in South and West and NOrth AFrica.
Beja langauge's relationship with other Cushitic languages, is cautiously placed as being a distant relative. Some even place the language on its own. In south-east Africa, yes, south Cushitic languages are spoken.
english is sometimes also placed outside of germanic but anybody can easily find its related to germanic i think its the same with beja maybe slightly different
Posts: 35 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Yom u said u doubt that some Beja have intermarried with Bilen then u must not been to Tessenay near the border with Sudan. Actually there are Bisharin in Nakfa i wouldnt even doubt that there are Beja in Keren it is a islamic city. Yeah the bottom Two are from Eritrea and are Hedareb but that doesnt make them less Beja as u showed Beja come in all different colors like Habshi and somalians do. Yom if u would take away the cultural dress u could not tell the difference between a Eritrean Beja Bilen Hedareb Beni Amir Agaw if u really look closely the only way to tell the Tigre and Beja apart is there tribal marks even Habshi have tribal marks the Beni Amir and Tigre have the three lines on there checks so do the Beja and hedareb the nara aslo picked this up from the Tigre even in the language of Nara there are Tigre words.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Prince of Punt so is the Cushitic group only spoken by people in the horn or is there Cushitic speakers in South and West and NOrth AFrica.
Beja langauge's relationship with other Cushitic languages, is cautiously placed as being a distant relative. Some even place the language on its own. In south-east Africa, yes, south Cushitic languages are spoken.
english is sometimes also placed outside of germanic but anybody can easily find its related to germanic i think its the same with beja maybe slightly different
English is not classified as outside of Germanic by any paper I've ever seen. It's pretty clearly a Germanic language with heavy Romance (Old French) influence (superstratum).
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Yom u said u doubt that some Beja have intermarried with Bilen then u must not been to Tessenay near the border with Sudan. Actually there are Bisharin in Nakfa i wouldnt even doubt that there are Beja in Keren it is a islamic city. Yeah the bottom Two are from Eritrea and are Hedareb but that doesnt make them less Beja as u showed Beja come in all different colors like Habshi and somalians do. Yom if u would take away the cultural dress u could not tell the difference between a Eritrean Beja Bilen Hedareb Beni Amir Agaw if u really look closely the only way to tell the Tigre and Beja apart is there tribal marks even Habshi have tribal marks the Beni Amir and Tigre have the three lines on there checks so do the Beja and hedareb the nara aslo picked this up from the Tigre even in the language of Nara there are Tigre words.
I've seen the Shlukh on the cheeks before (tribal marks) among Sudanese tribes, but I couldn't tell you which population had them first. Among Semitic speaking Ethiopians, Tigrays have short markings on the outside of the eyebrow ("11") or a cut on the eyelid, but most other groups have no such markings.
I'm not saying that the Beja haven't mixed with the Bilen. I'm saying that the Bisharin Beja probably haven't because they live so far north. Other Beja groups, like the Beni Amer and the Hedareb, probably have intermarried with the Bilen. I agree that Bejas can have a variety of phenotypes unrelated to level of foreign ancestry and that they are close in looks to people from the Horn of Africa, but there are subtle differences in phenotype that can allow you to discriminate one group from another (especially if you are from the region).
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"black skinned whites." LOL. Beja are black african. It's funny when these prejudice european anthroplogist makes such claims, almost everyone is quick to agree and validate them but when an African anthropologist tries to dispute,it automatically become eccentric. I asked my white friends if they would consider these bejas whites and they laughed hard at me, thinking I had lost my mind.
Posts: 38 | From: united states | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oh I'm sorry, I thought the beja were from the horn, with looks pretty indistuinguishable from my somali brothas and tall, lanky sistahs maybe the beja are descended from pre-historic migrants from the horn, eh? And I looked up Seligman, he said the proto-egyptians resembled the Beja, which is pretty much confirmed by skeletal analysis (my man SO Keita). What did Seligman say about dynastic egyptians? Didn't Keita find egyptian crania overall in non-metric traits to group with northern sudanese?
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Beja are indigenous to the Red Sea Hills in Egypt but also live in Sudan and Eritrea. The Abada are arabized Beja and some are lighter than your normal Beja;while others are simply the normal color of most Beja. Usually, their hair is fuzzy but curly thus the name fuzzy wuzzy by Kipling in his poem about them.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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what did seligman say about the affinities of the dynastic egyptians? (as opposed to the bearers of egyptian culture, the pre-dynastic egyptians) I expect the dynastic egyptians (especially late period) to differ somewhat skeletally from the pre-dynastic due to immigration from the east starting with the first dynasty, this was only to increase exponentially as time progressed, especially with our asiatic friends the Hyksos . And let's not forget our 7th century mohammedan friends and their polygamous ways, not to mention our pale brethren the french and hungarian soldiers who would often rape local aswani women. ): And that's why you have hungarian nubians folks . My point is folks egypt's population is so mixed right now, because, well, over the centuries egypt experienced A LOT of mixing .
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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In reality, they (the Beja) are the Kemetian's or Kmt.wy's closest phenotypical relatives rihgt?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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your stupidity is beyond comprehension. even a ten year old is smarter than you. At least, they know people's color don't change because of close promiximity to another. dude, you're one illiterate arab.
Posts: 38 | From: united states | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by dawit: english is sometimes also placed outside of germanic but anybody can easily find its related to germanic i think its the same with beja maybe slightly different
English is basically a Germanic language that has been heavily influenced by Romance languages, especially French.
The Beja language has closest affinities to other Cushitic languages, yet is the most divergent with peculiarties of its own which is why it is sometimes considered part of a group of its own.
There are other linguist who propose Beja to be grouped with Egyptian.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Obelisk Beja are from the Horn the Beja live in Three different countries Eritrea Eastern Sudan which is really Eritrea and Southern Egypt as Ausar said the ony Tribes of Beja that are in Southern Egypt are the Ababda Bisharin and one more i completely forgot the name but i will get it to u soon. I have lived in Sudan in EAstern Sudan Kassala from 1984-1993 Eastern Sudan is mostly flooded with Tribes from Eritrea for instance there are alot of Tigrinians there and also a few Tribes of Beja Beni Amir Tigre Hedareb and Arab Rashaida and Jeberti many these people extend from Port Sudan all the way to Keren which is in the middle of Eritrea the City of Nakfa which broke open the revolution of eritrea was named by the Beja who were in the front lines of the WAr fighting for there country eritea against Ethiopia/Derge but this was not a fight against Ethiopia vs Eritrea it was Eritrean Tribes Tigre Hedareb Afar Saho Kunama Bilen Raishada Afar and tigrinia of Eritrea and Ethiopia vs the Derge. During Haile Selassie there was a deal made to switch Sudanese land for Eritrean Land so Kassala and more parts of Eastern Sudan really belong to Eritrea there is even documents from within Sudan that claims this was true i think one of the lands switch was parts of Humarra in tigray close to Sudanes border.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nice pictures! At least this picture spam thread has to do with the subject of ancient Egyptians, since the Beja are the Egyptians' closest relatives!
Does this assertion have any evidence to support it? I would the Upper Kemites of dynastic times to have some relation with the Beja, but I don't know about the whole Kemetic population.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^ I think UP man has been infected with Amr1 disease, that causes incoherent rhetoric and subsequent speechless inability to answer questions. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ I think UP man has been infected with Amr1 disease, that causes incoherent rhetoric and subsequent speechless inability to answer questions.
Let's not be harsh on UP man. He is not a troll, and at least he is asking questions instead of making stupid assumptions and baseless claims.
I believe UP man is merely saying that Beja have closer relation to other Upper Egyptians than to Lower Egyptians or Western Sahrans. Although such an assertion would be inaccurate.
Why? Simply because, genetics has shown the Beja to have very close affinities to the Tuareg of the Western Sahara and peoples of the Siwa.
And of course Egyptologists even racist ones have agreed that the Beja "bear a striking resemblance to depictions of predynastic Egyptians"--Seligman.
By the way, the Medjay who were ancestors of the Beja archaeologically are known as the 'Pan Grave Culture' due to their pan shape burial pits. The Pan Grave Culture has been found as far south as northern Ethiopia I believe.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I see more of an East African/Ethiopian highland phenotype in the 3 brother/family Beja individuals than a Western Sahara one per Taureg!
Just an observation! Soundz funny but if there are whites with black skin (???!!) then how about blacks with white skin (easily reproducible) What's next?
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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^Yazid, that was an old anthropological screw up made by Westerners back then called the "Hamitic Hypothesis" which states the Hamitic peoples of the Bible which correspond to Africans with narrow or gracile features were actually black-skinned 'caucasoids' who were the descendants of whites from Western Asia that eventually became black.
Of course both physical anthropology as well as genetics has utterly destroyed such a premise and now that old theory has been considered an embarassement to anthropology...
Unfortunately you have nit-wits today who still repeat it like Evil-Euro and I dare say a few on this board. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This guy Sudan is a Arab country makes himself look Stupid what Does Bilad Al-Sudan Mean u Infidel it means the LAND OF THE BLACKS NOT THE LAND OF ARABS U SILLY HAMAR.
YAZID IS RIGHT BEJA HAVE MORE CLOSER AFFINITIES WITH THERE HORN OF AFRICAN BROTHERS SUDAN SOMALIA ETHIOPIA ERITREA DIJBOUTI AND SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS I HAVE LIVED ALONG SIDE THE BEJA FOR SO LONG AND THEY DONT REALLY GET CLOSE TO OUTSIDERS THE ONLY PEOPLE THEY HAVE CLOSE RELATIONS WITH THAT ARE NOT FROM THE BEJA TRIBE IS THE RAISHAID AND THE HABESHA OF ERITREA.
IF U LISTEN TO THE BEJA CONGRESS MEETING THEY CLAIM THEY ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS AND THEY ALSO CLAIM THAT THE PEOPLE OF ERITREA UNDERSTAND THERE STRUGGLES AND THERE CULTURE MORE THAN ANYONE IN THE REGION AND THEY ASLO SAY THAT MANY OF THERE PEOPLE COME FROM ERITREA AND ERITREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE HOME.
THATS WHY ERITREA IS THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE BEJA AND THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT THE BEJA SAID THEY WOULD NOT TALK TO THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT THERE ERITREAN BROTHERS.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: I think UP-man is trying to insinuate that native Lower Egyptians are really Aamu Asiatics, which is incorrect.
However, I don't know for sure, since he won't say.
I merely suspect that the native Lower Egyptian population as a whole looked a little different from the southern type, as many scholars say. However, I don't know about the nature of these differences.
Hey, I have read in more than one place that, late in Kemetic history, Lower Egyptians began to migrate southward into Upper Egypt. Is it possible that many modern southern Egyptians are in fact of the ancient Lower Egyptian type? Conversely, could it be that the ancient Lower Egyptians looked like today's Upper Egyptians?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Since early neolithic times there existed two distinct but closely related types, a northern in Middle Egypt and a southern in Upper Egypt. The southern Egyptians were distinguished from the northerners by a smaller cranial index, a larger nasal index and greater prognathism. The geographical distinction between the two groups continued during the Pre-Dynastic Period. The Upper Egyptians, however, spread into lower Nubia during that period. By the beginning of the Dynastic era the northern Egyptian type is encountered for the first time in the Thebaïd, i.e., in the southern territory. The incursion, however, seems to have been transitory and the effects of the co-existence of the two types in one locality remained very transient until the 18th Dynasty. From this time onwards the northern type prevailed all over Egypt, as far south as Denderah, till the end of the Roman period.
EDIT: Oops, I just found on the same page that, "The study of the available measurements of the living, however, apparently suggests that the modern population all over Egypt conforms more closely to the southern type." Guess I was wrong.
Though it's a little weird that, according to this guy, all Egyptians look like this "southern type", regardless of complexion.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^ Legitimate questions, I agree. The delta region is a difficult case as it provides much less anthropological evidence from the pre-dynastic, and even then you have to sort out what is native to Km.t and what is foreign.
The Narmer Palette is said to present a picture of and ethnically homogeneous Nile Valley - from the Delta thru and into the Sudan - with only the Asiatics being ethnically differentiated.
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I merely suspect that the native Lower Egyptian population as a whole looked a little different from the southern type, as many scholars say. However, I don't know about the nature of these differences.
^^The nature of differences between Lower Egyptians and upper Egyptians, is not what some think. It is based on extrapolations from dynastic era specimens in Lower Egypt, as opposed to many predynastic remains uncovered in Upper Egypt. Thus, lower Egyptians are said to have been more heterogenous cranio-facially than their Upper Egyptian counterparts, and as a result they occupied "intermediate" position when compared to "near Eastern"/European and tropical African "trends".
posted
Yom what is the history behind Lake Tana could it be linked to Egypt maybe i dont know that much about lake tana but it is one of the sources of the nile and i have heard it is a mysterious place its like a few islands right i wonder if the Egyptians knew about this place.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
It would help if we had maps the Egyptians made of lands to their south.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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maybe the beja are descended from pre-historic migrants from the horn, eh? And I looked up Seligman, he said the proto-egyptians resembled the Beja, which is pretty much confirmed by skeletal analysis (my man SO Keita). What did Seligman say about dynastic egyptians? Didn't Keita find egyptian crania overall in non-metric traits to group with northern sudanese?
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. And let's not forget our 7th century mohammedan friends and their polygamous ways, not to mention our pale brethren the french and hungarian soldiers who would often rape local aswani women. ): And that's why you have hungarian nubians folks 
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