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Author Topic: The Origins of African-Americans (Redux...)
alTakruri
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Again, without knowing all of Skippy's progenitors
it's impossible to state he has "only 50% 'sub-saharan'
ancestry."

"Literally out of 100 of his ancestors (on either side),
50 of them were European."
No, no, no and again, no!

Whatever HGs or HTs where used in the test, you must
understand something basic. I hope Rasol will come
along and give his breakdown once again but in the
meantime:


Let's take a 54 year old subject today and go back
five generations to that persons great-great-great-
grandparents of 200 years ago in the days of slavery.

The O represents the subject.

The M is the woman five generations ago whose
mtDNA showed up on the test. Let's say she was
Cherokee.

The F is the ancestral man as explained above
except the genetic tests were done on the Y
chromosome. Let's say he was Scotch Irish.

The mtDNA and Y chromosome tests only show the
matrilineal ancestry through the Cherokee woman's m 's and the
patrilineal ancestry through the Scotch Irishman's f 's.

Five generations ago in 1800, unless there was incest,
or cousin matings, the subject has 32 ancestors. Let's
say 30 of them were all Fons from Dahomey (modern Benin).

They're all those X 's and Y 's the DNA tests miss!

They contribute 93.75% to the ancestral make up
of the subject. Literally, they make him (or her)
what he (or she) is.


The 1 out of 32 Cherokee ancestress and the 1 out
of 32 Scotch Irish ancestor do not make the subject
50% Indian and 50% European. Together they only
come to 6.25%. All those Dahomey Fons make the
subject African.

Why wouldn't a responsible tester or company tell their client
about this kind of test limitation? Why don't these docudrama
writers on the cable tv narrate the truth about what these
tests really tell?


code:
 
YEAR GENERATION

1950 Ego/Ega O
|
1920 1 m = f
| |
1890 2 m = Y X = f
| | | |
1860 3 m = Y X = Y X = Y X = f
| | | | | | | |
1830 4 m = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = Y X = f
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
1800 5 M=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=Y X=F

Jumping to DNA conclusions can breed false historic
or personal notions, like Skippy being 50% white and
having 50 out of 100 European progenitors. Beware of
unsupplemented DNA conclusions. At least in Skippy's
case somebody finally went used other genetic evidence.




quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
^All of that is apparent, though in the particular case which is referenced (the guy on the TV show) the individual (Henry Louis Gates, Jr) was actually shown to have had only 50% "sub-Saharan" Ancestry, maybe I should of mentioned that, it was him personally who complained about "not being black" in his own words (He was just wise-cracking, but literally this is the case since he's mulatto). Literally out of 100 of his ancestors (on either side), 50 of them were European. They had to do some new/different kind of test (as oppose to Y Chromosome or MtDNA) where they sampled his African side and compared it with various ethnic groups and it showed that he clustered along side the Mende people.


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Sundjata
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^I see exactly what you're saying, but first, this is the episode that I saw, not sure if they break down the results on the site, but...
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/

^That's his picture on the front btw..

Basically he kept asking them how was this possible, they told him that most likely both of his parents were Mulatto. Indeed, they showed a picture of his father and he was very light skinned and wavy haired like most half-breeds I know personally. Basically, Henry's father's father was European, but his grandfather's (on his father's side of course) wife was black. Henry's mother's mother was white, but his grandmother's husband was black (his grandfather on his mother's side).. There's four possible ways to go, it just so happens that we can only trace two through the Y Chromosome and MtDNA, these tests obscure the fact that he's of African descent but a test that they did to indicate approximate admixture found that he had 50% sub-Saharan ancestry, just how it found that Chris Tucker had 83%, and Oprah had 88%, and Dr. Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot had 67%.. It wasn't complicated, through out the program they showed step by step the ancestry of these people, I guess you'd have to see it to know what I'm talking about. You can search and download the entire program on mvgroup.org if you ever feel like checking it out.

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
^I see exactly what you're saying, but first, this is the episode that I saw, not sure if they break down the results on the site, but...
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/

^That's his picture on the front btw..

Basically he kept asking them how was this possible, they told him that most likely both of his parents were Mulatto. Indeed, they showed a picture of his father and he was very light skinned and wavy haired like most half-breeds I know personally. Basically, Henry's father's father was European, but his grandfather's (on his father's side of course) wife was black. Henry's mother's mother was white, but his grandmother's husband was black (his grandfather on his mother's side).. There's four possible ways to go, it just so happens that we can only trace two through the Y Chromosome and MtDNA, these tests obscure the fact that he's of African descent but a test that they did to indicate approximate admixture found that he had 50% sub-Saharan ancestry, just how it found that Chris Tucker had 83%, and Oprah had 88%, and Dr. Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot had 67%.. It wasn't complicated, through out the program they showed step by step the ancestry of these people, I guess you'd have to see it to know what I'm talking about. You can search and download the entire program on mvgroup.org if you ever feel like checking it out.

Snake Oil:

Snake oil is a Traditional Chinese medicine used for joint pain. However, the most common usage of the words is as derogatory term for medicines to imply that they are fake, fraudulent, and usually ineffective. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality — such as bogus cryptography (see fraud in cryptography).

Fraud:

An intentional perversion of truth; deceitful practice or device resorted to with intent to deprive another of property (usually your money!) or other right.

...

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Sundjata
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^^What are you getting at here? Are you suggesting that the DNA tests performed on these people for this specific program was a fraud and/or mis-leading? If so, how?

What does that have to do with this particular case and how does this information tell us that Henry Louis Gates Jr. is not Mulatto? Especially given the fact that a lot (certainly not the majority) of African Americans are. No sarcasm involved but is it truly "impossible" or far fetched to believe that an African America can indeed be a Mulatto?

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Sundjata
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(double post)
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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
^^What are you getting at here? Are you suggesting that the DNA tests performed on these people for this specific program was a fraud and/or mis-leading? If so, how?

What does that have to do with this particular case and how does this information tell us that Henry Louis Gates Jr. is not Mulatto? Especially given the fact that a lot (certainly not the majority) of African Americans are. No sarcasm involved but is it truly "impossible" or far fetched to believe that an African America can indeed be a Mulatto?

...sigh...
alTakruri has already explained this, and more than once; if you haven't gotten it by now, oh well...

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Sundjata
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^^What are you talking about? Indeed, you just don't seem to be following what I said from my personal experience of watching the film, the condescending cordiality is unwarranted and there's no need to save face by alluding to what someone else said.

 -
"Harvard professor Henry Louis "Skip" Gates Jr. concluded from tests that he's 50% white."
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/genetics/2006-02-01-dna-african-americans_x.htm

"Q: Can you talk about the DNA analysis you did?

A: We gave each participant a variety of tests: a Y-chromosome test (except for the women, who don't have a Y chromosome), a mitochondrial DNA test and an "admixture" test. The admixture is the percentage of one's DNA that comes from four genetic populations -- Asian, Native American, Sub-Saharan African and European. And those results were fascinating. The average African American, for example, is 20 percent European and five percent Native American. One of our participants is 16 percent Asian, and had no idea! It's just fascinating." http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/

^They gave him an Autosomal DNA test in addition to the MtDNA and Y Chromosome to indicate Biogeographical ancestry and admixture. The admixture results showed him to be 50/50, period. It was displayed and shown with a graph, the European and African percentages were equal and visually displayed in the graphs. In all fairness you're not helping at all, your input isn't necessary unless in fact you know what I'm talking about and have seen the actual film yourself. Again, download and search for the documentary on mvgroup.org, these are not my conclusions at all. I appreciate both of you guy's efforts but I haven't been told anything new and maybe you should have data on the case referenced first before you undermine my inference of the info.. In other words, watch the documentary please before you comment on the results of it.

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Sundjata
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The face saving, seeming arrogance, and lack of attention to details and the relevant info on here is somewhat appalling. Obviously alTakruri simply didn't follow what I said and/or didn't watch the program, which is why he focused on explaining something to me that I already know about, paternal and maternal ancestry, that was so completely irrelevant to the results of the tests.

It's insulting when people simply brush you off because they think that they understand something that you don't, when in fact it's the other way around and they're just lost on what I'm trying to explain. It's almost amazing that you (Wally) couldn't get out of what I was saying that the people on the documentary took more than just Y Chromosome and MtDNA tests, which is beyond the scope of what is unnecessarily being explained to me. Wally, either you skimmed through and did not read what I wrote because for some reason you feel as if you're too high and mighty to do so, or logically it just did not compute in your head that what alTakruri is explaining has nothing to do with the results. I assume that you're a lot smarter than that so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you simply brushed me off with out reading what I wrote and lost patience maybe because that's how you are or you're used to dealing with simple minded people. But please do not treat me in that manner, I am not simple minded in any way and all I ask for is common courtesy/decency, at least enough to where if you respond to me you'll address everything that I said and not just skip over it and ramble on about some irrelevant 9th grade biology information that some one else provided, then brush me off. I put up with that enough among cocky Caucasians, I don't need it on an Egypt forum..

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Wally
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Sundiata...Sundiata
You got to lighten up man! [Smile] [Big Grin] [Wink]

This is a forum where IDEAS are being debated, and except for the occasional fools who drift in here, none of the debates about ideas are personal. I have had very lively and very heated debates (from which I have learned much) with some of the people here whom I have the greatest respect for. None of us have taken any of these debates as personal attacks; it's the nature of debating!
Fools, we don't tolerate. You are not a fool...

What I am particularly debating you about is your constant harping on a William Gates program wherein this bourgeois idiot claims that he is 50% white! (Also you repeat the derogatory usage of the word "mulatto"; bi-racial would be a slight improvement; multi-racial would be closer to reality...)

a) Halle Berry, Alicia Keyes, Lisa Bonet, are all 50% white due to their parentage; they all have Black fathers and White mothers. Once you go beyond their immediate heritage of mother and father, it becomes problematical as to what is their ancestral heritage, as alTakruri has demonstrated.

b) If "uncle" Gates is 50% White then one of his parents has to be White! Even this is not an absolute figure either as the White parent's ancestry must consist of 100% European (White) ancestry (unlikely) and the Black parent's ancestry must consist of 100% African (Black) ancestry (extremely unlikely).
Do you begin to see how ridiculous all of this nonsense is?

These charlatans are simply using celebrities to sell what amounts to little more than Snake oil...

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alTakruri
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I had no interest in watching the show when it
came and have none in watching it now either.

Why?

Precisely because its geared to wow the uninitiated.

Docudramas rarely if ever accurately inform about
their topic. They just entertain their viewers and
breed the type of foregoing correspondance where
actual knowledge of population vs personal genetics
(no matter how often or clearly presented) is doubted
in favor of the tv shows misrepresentative narration.

Due to the owner shutting off the search function
I cannot locate a previous thread precisely relating
to these tests that purport to tell one what ancestral
percentages they are of
* White (a color)
* Black (a color)
* Native American (a vast super-ethny)
* Asian (continental origin)
*


It's a rip off plain and simple. And if Skippy spent
half a day studying valid population genetics he
and those other celebs would all know they bought
snake oil.

Considering DNA tests for yourself? The company you
chose is important because of the methods they use and
the genome base they check against. Here are links to
http://www.kerchner.com/dnaprintlog2003.htm
http://www.kerchner.com/mtdnalog2003.htm
where clients discuss their results, notice in particular the
comments of those expecting SA (sub-Saharan African)
matches

Avoid a company making extravagant claims about what
they can do, or that doesn't come up front about the limitations
of their tests, or who have a small comparative resource base,
or has a high percentage of "2nd tests" due to "failures," or etc.

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alTakruri
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The above cited html links are now buried within
this pdf http://www.kerchner.com/mtdnalog2003.htm
which is easily searchable for the keyword 'african'

P.S. Here are examples where maternal male and paternal female
ancestors of generation 2 and beyond are known by traditional
genealogy methods but missed by DNA tests. Before laying her
money down Marla should've asked and been told the tests she
chose can't show paternal female ancestry.


NOTE:
IE = IndoEuropean (a language family)
EA = East Asian (a region of a continent)
NA = Native American (a transcontinental super-ethny)
SA = Sub-Saharan African (an imprecise continental divide)
quote:

Guest: Ana
Guest's Website: http://www.geocites.com/casadecoqui/
Date-Time: Friday, July 25, 2003 at 01:36:02 (CDT)
My Expected Results for IE,EA,NA,SA Population Groups: 60, 0, 25, 15
My Actual DNAPrint Results for IE,EA,NA,SA Population Groups: 76, 24, 0, 0
Date DNAPrint Test Was Ordered: 12 May 2003
Comments: We are island born Puerto Ricans and so are all of our direct ancestors for the last 250 years. About that time, the first documented Spaniards appear in our tree. In other words nothing but creole or native Puerto Ricans for generations. Puerto Ricans as an ethnicity are comprised of three main groups, the Spanish colonial, the Taíno Indian and the African. Since my brother and I have over 23 years of personal documented genealogy and history of European, African, and probable Taíno (Native) heritage, the results are absolutely not as expected and seem implausible. In other words, something does not compute here. Since I just received the results today, we are still digesting it all.
Email address: bueli@...

Guest: Marla Jones
Date-Time: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 at 08:38:04 (CDT)
My Expected Results for IE,EA,NA,SA Population Groups: 6,0,8,86
My Actual DNAPrint Results for IE,EA,NA,SA Population Groups: 20,0,0,80
Comments: I was really surprised at the Indo-European and at the 0% NA my paternal ggrandmother and gggrandmother were of NA ancestry I have their pictures also.
Email address: mailto:Reborn2h2o@...





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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
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Reposted in response to recent DNA test result posting.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

It's barely a month since we went over this and already
it's forgotten (or was never understood to begin with).

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004922#000018

We've all explained here numerous times over the
past couple of years that DNA tests work best for
populations not individuals.

Whether NRY mtDNA based, the only thing a test
does is show one forebear among possibly dozens.

 -

To say someone of an inner African phenotype is
white because 1 or 2 out of 64 progenitors were
European while the remaining 62 were, say, all
Africans is ludicrous.


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