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Author Topic: Nordic types in the Middle kingdom.
Yonis
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According to Coon, Maghreb Riffian "nordic types" existed during the Middle kingdom in Egypt, how valid is this theory?

 -
FIG. 5 (2 views). A Riffian from the coastal village of Ajdir, in the tribe of Beni Ur-
riaghel. In pigment, in measurements, and morphologically this Riffian is as perfect a
Nordic as one could find in northern Europe. Nordics are as ancient in North Africa
as the Egyptian monuments of the Middle Kingdom, and perhaps older. They survive
today mostly in the mountains of the Rif, but others are found in the Canary Islands,
and the Djurdjura and Aures mountains of Algeria.

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BrandonP
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Remember, we are dealing with the same man who identifies Ethiopians as "Caucasoid". I would take him with a grain of salt.

To his credit, he doesn't say that there were Nordics in Egypt during the Middle Kingdom, he says that northwest Africa had people he considers "Nordic" at the same time as the Egyptian Middle Kingdom.

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Yonis
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Nope, he actually does indirectly say nordic type in the middle kingdom; "Nordics are as ancient in North Africa
as the Egyptian monuments of the Middle Kingdom , and perhaps older."

Yes, i know he's outdated, he's also the one who coined the word "congoid".

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Doug M
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Which is fine. All of which points to a foreign origin of the so-called Afro Caucasian in Europe and Asia.

This is also documented in the different way Libyans were depicted in the Old versus Middle Kingdoms:

quote:

In the Old Kingdom the male Libyans were shown red brown with a chin-beard; women were shown with yellow skin. After the Old Kingdom men and women are shown with bright skin and prominent tatoos. There is not much evidence for trade between Egypt and Libya. Products including the name THnw (HAtt nt THnw - Libyan oil/ THnt - glass paste) might have been produced in Libya originally, but such names might have had different origins. In the booty from Libyan wars, cattle and slaves are often mentioned; this indicates a pastoral rather than entirely hunter-gathering way of life.

http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/foreignrelations/libya.html
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yazid904
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Some of these researchers/anthropologists are mixing and matching terms from today with those the past. Nordic (my assumption from Northern Europe) are not indigenous to N. Africa but I will stretch the facts by saying, if anything, that the North African branch is older and the parent of the child (Nordic) origin!

You want an Afro Caucasian! Look at Jennifer Beals or Vin Diesel??

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Djehuti
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^LOL So true! [Big Grin]

The 'Nordics' Coon spoke of in Egypt had to be the Tamahou Libyans.

 -

Although I forgot whether these people first appeared in Egyptian texts during the Middle Kingdom or the New Kingdom.

By the way, that old photo of a Riffian hardly looks European, let alone 'Nordic'!

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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
According to Coon, Maghreb Riffian "nordic types" existed during the Middle kingdom in Egypt, how valid is this theory?

Coon also claimed the Tutsi were Hamitic caucasoids who came from Arabia.

Riffians aren't Nordic anymore than Dravidians are Mandingo, and there is little specific evidence of Riffian in Kemet.

Coon is one of the godfathers of such racist babamboozlement.

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Djehuti
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^LOL Excellent point taken.
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alTakruri
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What? According to who?? Is this some kind of sick joke???

quote:

Nordic types in the Middle kingdom
...
According to Coon


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Myra Wysinger
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The hypothesis that the ancient Egyptians were a predominantly "white" civilization was viable in the heyday of European colonialism, but is today regarded as (racist) pseudoscience. However, several neo-Nazi and racist groups such as Stormfront still hold this myth to be true, holding that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire." This view enjoys no support whatsoever among researchers of ancient Egypt for the simple reason that there is no evidence for it, and enormous evidence against it. [Source]

.

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Inmybackgarden.
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quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The hypothesis that the ancient Egyptians were a predominantly "white" civilization was viable in the heyday of European colonialism, but is today regarded as (racist) pseudoscience. However, several neo-Nazi and racist groups such as Stormfront still hold this myth to be true, holding that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire." This view enjoys no support whatsoever among researchers of ancient Egypt for the simple reason that there is no evidence for it, and enormous evidence against it. [Source]

.

I have just come across your reply and interested in this im been to the source of which is the Wikipedia do you find this link to be accurate .Could you please assist in linking me to another site.
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Myra Wysinger
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The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians
Professor S.O.Y. Keita
Department of Biological Anthropology
Oxford University

Professor A. J. Boyce
University Reader in Human Population
Oxford University

What was the primary geographical source for the peopling of the Egyptian Nile Valley? Were the creators of the fundamental culture of southern predynastic Egypt—which led to the dynastic culture—migrants and colonists from Europe or the Near East? Or were they predominantly African variant populations?

These questions can be addressed using data from studies of biology and culture, and evolutionary interpretive models. Archaeological and linguistic data indicate an origin in Africa. Biological data from living Egyptians and from skeletons of ancient Egyptians may also shed light on these questions. It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans.

Scientists have been studying remains from the Egyptian Nile Valley for years. Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans.

Another source of skeletal data is limb proportions, which generally vary with different climatic belts. In general, the early Nile Valley remains have the proportions of more tropical populations, which is noteworthy since Egypt is not in the tropics. This suggests that the Egyptian Nile Valley was not primarily settled by cold-adapted peoples, such as Europeans.

Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation.

The descriptions and terms of ancient Greek writers have sometimes been used to comment on Egyptian origins. This is problematic since the ancient writers were not doing population biology. However, we can examine one issue. The Greeks called all groups south of Egypt "Ethiopians." Were the Egyptians more related to any of these "Ethiopians" than to the Greeks? As noted, cranial and limb studies have indicated greater similarity to Somalis, Kushites and Nubians, all "Ethiopians" in ancient Greek terms.

There are few studies of ancient DNA from Egyptian remains and none so far of southern predynastic skeletons. A study of 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not surprisingly some from "sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin. More work is needed. In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples.

The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).

Examples of regions that have biologically absorbed genetically different immigrants are Sicily, Portugal, and Greece, where the frequencies of various genetic markers (and historical records) indicate sub-Saharan and supra-Saharan African migrants.

This scenario is different from one in which a different population replaces another via colonization. Native Egyptians were variable. Foreigners added to this variability.

The genetic data on the recent Egyptian population is fairly sparse. There has not been systematic research on large samples from the numerous regions of Egypt. Taken collectively, the results of various analyses suggest that modern Egyptians have ties with various African regions, as well as with Near Easterners and Europeans. Egyptian gene frequencies are between those of Europeans and some sub-Saharan Africans. This is not surprising. The studies have used various kinds of data: standard blood groups and proteins, mitochondrial DNA, and the Y chromosome. The gene frequencies and variants of the "original" population, or of one of early high density, cannot be deduced without a theoretical model based on archaeological and "historical" data, including the aforementioned DNA from ancient skeletons. (It must be noted that it is not yet clear how useful ancient DNA will be in most historical genetic research.) It is not clear to what degree certain genetic systems usually interpreted as non-African may in fact be native to Africa. Much depends on how "African" is defined and the model of interpretation.

The various genetic studies usually suffer from what is called categorical thinking, specifically, racial thinking. Many investigators still think of "African" in a stereotyped, nonscientific (nonevolutionary) fashion, not acknowledging a range of genetic variants or traits as equally African. The definition of "African" that would be most appropriate should encompass variants that arose in Africa. Given that this is not the orientation of many scholars, who work from outmoded racial perspectives, the presence of "stereotypical" African genes so far from the "African heartland" is noteworthy. These genes have always been in the valley in any reasonable interpretation of the data. As a team of Egyptian geneticists stated recently, "During this long history and besides these Asiatic influences, Egypt maintained its African identity . . ." (Mahmoud et al. 1987). This statement is even more true in a wider evolutionary interpretation, since some of the "Asian" genes may be African in origin. Modern data and improved theoretical approaches extend and validate this conclusion.

In summary, various kinds of data and the evolutionary approach indicate that the Nile Valley populations had greater ties with other African populations in the early ancient period. Early Nile Valley populations were primarily coextensive with indigenous African populations. Linguistic and archaeological data provide key supporting evidence for a primarily African origin.


References Cited:

Angel, J. L., and J. O. Kelley, Description and comparison of the skeleton. In The Wadi Kubbaniya Skeleton: A Late Paleolithic Burial from Southern Egypt. E Wendorf and R. Schild. pp. 53-70. Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press. 1986

Brauer, G., and K. Rimbach, Late archaic and modern Homo sapiens from Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia: Craniometric comparisons and phylogenetic implications, Journal of Human Evolution 19:789-807. 1990

Drake, St. C., Black Folk Here and There, vol 1. Los Angeles: University of California. 1987

Keita, S.O.Y., Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships. History in Africa 20:129-154. 1993

Mahmoud, L. et. al, Human blood groups in Dakhlaya. Egypt. Annah of Human Biology. 14(6):487-493. 1987

Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993

Petrie, W.M., F. The Making of Egypt. London: Sheldon Press. 1984

Thoma, A., Morphology and affinities of the Nazlet Khaterman. Journal of Human Evolution 13:287-296. 1984

.

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The hypothesis that the ancient Egyptians were a predominantly "white" civilization was viable in the heyday of European colonialism, but is today regarded as (racist) pseudoscience. However, several neo-Nazi and racist groups such as Stormfront still hold this myth to be true, holding that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire." This view enjoys no support whatsoever among researchers of ancient Egypt for the simple reason that there is no evidence for it, and enormous evidence against it. [Source]

.

Actually I'll be honest with you, wikipedia is not reliable and I actually helped to edit that article because 1 or 2 people are/were vandalizing it with false information. Someone named "Urthogie" actually contributed this particular paragraph based the ongoing discussions in the discussion thread. So while this holds true, generally it isn't a reliable source since "Urthogie" only wrote it based on original research. This person in all reality is naive and still believes in the Dynastic Race Theory in some form, but acknowledges Egypt's ties and proper place in the context of NorthEast Africa. Here's a link to the discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race


quote:
Originally posted by Inmybackgarden:
I have just come across your reply and interested in this im been to the source of which is the Wikipedia do you find this link to be accurate .Could you please assist in linking me to another site.

Try this link also, it includes the overview that Myra Wysinger posted, along with many other studies concerning your inquiries. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita.html
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Djehuti
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^LOL The very idea of Nordics wandering their way from northern Europe all the way to Africa and founding a civilization there before anywhere else let alone Europe, is hilarious! [Big Grin]

And I suppose right after they founded Egyptian civilization they died off due to skin cancers from the extensive damage done by the African sun, and the only reason why we haven't found their remains yet is because their bodies were disposed of into the sea somewhere. [Big Grin]

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Myra Wysinger
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This is a perfect place to post this! [Smile]

Egypt State Information:

Egypt to establish up to date labs to conduct DNA tests on mummies

Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities Zahi Hawwas has said the government is planning to establish an up-to-date laboratory to conduct DNA tests on mummies.

Hawwas said the lab will cost $3 million to be paid by the American National Geographic network.

The American TV will further produce a documentary on Queen Hatshepsut, he added.

Hawwas noted that the lab will be equipped with state of the art technology and located at the basement of the Egyptian Museum in downtown Cairo.

"Egyptian scientists and archaeologists will supervise the DNA tests, led by the head of the National Centre for Research and Tests Dr Hani el-Nazir," he said.

Hawwas said he was one of the staunch opponents of conducting DNA tests on mummies in the past because of poor equipment, which yield incorrect results.

"The second reason is that such tests were exclusive for unspecialized foreigners, who were just seeking fame," he said.

"I remember that one of them claimed that a DNA test on the mummy of a child pharaoh in Saint Louis museum had shown his European origin." [Source]

.

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Inmybackgarden.
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Thankyou for the links saved them in the history folder .Im need a day to sort through on what im learn ,to seeing every one either has thier own theories on History regarding Africa or Egypt .Not to mention sites all have there own version.Nice to have such a diverced opinions .
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Doug M
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I think it should read media arm of U.S. Egyptological institutions to establish up to date lab for DNA testing, staffed with Egyptians.

Lol!

Have your cup o salt handy.

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Sundjata
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quote:
"I remember that one of them claimed that a DNA test on the mummy of a child pharaoh in Saint Louis museum had shown his European origin."
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=8;t=004891;go=newer

^^He must be referring to this.. It was during the Roman period so was most likely a Greco-Roman child since the child mummy was said to have been wealthy and of high prestige.

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alTakruri
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Funny. Hawass was one of the rejoicers over the
Greco-Roman mummycase masks because of their
facial features (which aren't much like the
average native dynastic era facial features).
Now it's like a man of his supposed knowledge
never gave a thought to the Greco-Roman migrants
to the delta, that these very mummies inside the
mummycases behind the 'adorable' masks wouldn't
bear the genes of their place of ancestry?

I fear both Hawass and the National Geographic
because of their obvious biases and track record.
Hawass gets rid of anything that doesn't agree
with him. Nat'l Geo, well, we have decades worth
of their de-Africanizing ancient Egypt.

I fear this horrific team and what they will do
to ensure "objective science" echoes their preset
ideologies.

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2017. All rights reserved.

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Djehuti
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^I'm afraid I agree with al-Takruri. This new alliance is indeed somewhat disturbing.

I just hope and pray that the scientists conducting these tests will try to be as objective as they can.

quote:
Originally posted by Inmybackgarden.:

Thankyou for the links saved them in the history folder .Im need a day to sort through on what im learn ,to seeing every one either has thier own theories on History regarding Africa or Egypt .Not to mention sites all have there own version.Nice to have such a diverced opinions .

[Embarrassed] Inmybackgarden, there are indeed many theories regarding Egypt and Africa. The problem is trying to discern which theories are accurate and which are just plain rubbish. There is alot of bogus stuff out there you need to watch out for.
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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Funny. Hawass was one of the rejoicers over the
Greco-Roman mummycase masks because of their
facial features (which aren't much like the
average native dynastic era facial features).
Now it's like a man of his supposed knowledge
never gave a thought to the Greco-Roman migrants
to the delta, that these very mummies inside the
mummycases behind the 'adorable' masks wouldn't
bear the genes of their place of ancestry?


I fear both Hawass and the National Geographic
because of their obvious biases and track record.
Hawass gets rid of anything that doesn't agree
with him. Nat'l Geo, well, we have decades worth
of their de-Africanizing ancient Egypt.

I fear this horrific team and what they will do
to ensure "objective science" echoes their preset
ideologies.

Great points^.

Does anyone know where I can find relevant information on the differences between demographic of Upper and Lower Egypt/Kemet?

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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
According to Coon, Maghreb Riffian "nordic types" existed during the Middle kingdom in Egypt, how valid is this theory?

 -
FIG. 5 (2 views). A Riffian from the coastal village of Ajdir, in the tribe of Beni Ur-
riaghel. In pigment, in measurements, and morphologically this Riffian is as perfect a
Nordic as one could find in northern Europe. Nordics are as ancient in North Africa
as the Egyptian monuments of the Middle Kingdom, and perhaps older. They survive
today mostly in the mountains of the Rif, but others are found in the Canary Islands,
and the Djurdjura and Aures mountains of Algeria.

"According to Coon"...that's where I stopped.
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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
According to Coon, Maghreb Riffian "nordic types" existed during the Middle kingdom in Egypt, how valid is this theory?

Coon said the Tutsi were the last remnants of the Arabian caucasoids in Africa.

That's a fair 'ridiculous' citation from him as well, because it cuts to the core of his prepostrous racist vision of anthropology.

By the way, we recently were discussing Chris Stringer author of African Exodus - one of the leading proponents of "Out of Africa" theorem of anthropology which Coon did - not - like.

The repulsive force separating the out-of-Africa theory from the multiregional theory seems generated as much by the contemporary personalities involved in the debate as by the ancient evidence debated.

The out-of-Africa theory does have the advantage of supporting our better inclinations, which the authors thoroughly engage by casting the opposition as inheritors of a culturally infected biology.


Stringer recounts his encounter in 1979, in a men's washroom at Harvard, with the aged Carelton Coon, who referred to one of his critics as ''that . . . Jew Weiner.''


^ Neanderthals Need Not Apply
By ROBERT J. RICHARDS

The current case for the 'out of Africa' theory of modern human origins

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Djehuti
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^ LOL So that's the reasone why you bumped up this thread?! [Big Grin]
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