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Author Topic: O.T. Asian Kushites
Clyde Winters
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The Blacks who founded the Historic civilizations in Mesopotamia came
from the Proto-Sahara.

These ancient Proto-Saharans as noted in earlier chapters were called Kushites.The Greco-Roman writers made it clear that there were two Kushite empires one in Asia and the other group in the area we call the Sudan,Nubia,
and parts of southern Egypt. The Greek writer Homer alluded to the two Kushite empires, when he wrote "a race divided, whom the sloping rays; the
rising and the setting sun surveys". The Greek traveler/historian Herodutus claimed that he derived this information from the Egyptians.

The Asian Proto-Saharans were also called Kushites or Ethiopians. The term Ethiopian comes from two Greek terms: Ethios 'burnt' and ops 'face', as a result Ethiopian means the 'burnt faces'. Herodutus and Homer, described these Ethiopians as "the most just of men;the favorites of the gods". The classical literature makes it clear that the region from Egypt to India was called by the name Ethiopia.

For example, the Elamites called themselves KHATAM, and their capital Susa:KUSSI. In addition, the Kassites, who occupied the central part of the
Zagros mountains were called KASHSHU. The Kushana, who helped invent the Meroitic writing, formerly occupied Chinese Turkistan (Xinjiang) and the Gansu province of China.

The Kushites in Asia, as in Africa were known for their skill as bowmen :Steu , the name of the people of Ta-Seti.

The decipherer of the cuneiform writing of Mesopotamia, Rawlingson, said Puntites and Kushites were established in Asia. He found mention of Kushiya and Puntiya in the inscriptions of Darius. He also made it clear
that the name Kush was also applied to southern Persia, India, Elam, Arabia, and Colchis (a part of southern Russia/Turkistan) in ancient times.


Elamite
 -

Medes
 -

Babylonians
 -

Armenian
 -

Gandaran

 -

Arian
 -

Cappadocian
 -


.
The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam , Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers
Kush.Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".The
Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called
southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.

From Iran the Kushites used the natural entry point into China along the path running from the Zagros to the Altai mountains, and the Dzunganian
gate. There is archaeological evidence indicating that farming communities village sites were established along this path of similar origin, which date back to 3500 BC. The archaeological data indicate that this agricultural economy spread from west to east.


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Clyde Winters
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Can these numerous Blacks in this area in ancient times explain the presense of R1 in this region today?

Concomitant Replacement of Language and mtDNA in South Caspian Populations of Iran - all 6 versions »
I Nasidze, D Quinque, M Rahmani, SA Alemohamad, M … - Current Biology, 2006 - Elsevier
... Haplogroup J2 (M172) was found at high frequency in both groups, as was haplogroup
R1 (M173); together, these two haplogroups account for more than 50% of ...


It is interesting that the Levels of R1* from Cruciani et al. 2002 indicate that many Africans/ Blacks carry this haplogroup (language group & country in parentheses):

Ouldeme - 95% (Cameroon)
Mixed Chadic - 67%
Mixed Adamawa - 56%
Daba - 44% (C)
Fali - 23% (C)
Fulbe (Cameroon) - 12%* (also 5% K2)
Mixed Nilo-Saharan - 11%
Tali - 7% (C)

Rawlinson and the Classical authors was sure that the Kushite Nations in Asia, were founded by Africans. The genetic evidence may offer considerable support and proof to their proposition.


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Clyde Winters
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Xerxes
 -

William Leo Hansberry, African History Notebook, (1981) Volume 2 noted that:

In Persia the old Negroid element seems indeed to have been sufficiently powerful to maintain the overlord of the land. For the Negritic strain is clearly evident in statuary depicting members of the royal family ruling in the second millenium B.C.

Hundreds of years later, when Xerxes invaded Greece, the type was well represented in the Persian army. In the remote mountain regions bordering on Persia and Baluchistan, there is to be found at the present time a Negroid element which bears a remarkable resemblance to the type represented on the ancient mounments. Hence the Negritic or Ethiopian type has proved persistent in this area, and in ancient times it seems to have constituted numerically and socially an important factor in the population" (p.52) .


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C. A. Winters

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Doug M
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Yes Dr. Winters there were dark skinned populations who ranged from Northern Africa through the Levant into the Northern Persian Gulf and across Afghanistan into India. These people were not called Kushites however and were called various names in various times and various places. Even in the Egyptian rendering of people from the Levant and Arabia you have depictions of people who sometimes clearly have darker skin and other features normally associated with Africans. The people labelled as Kushites were the ACTUAL Kushites who became famous mid to late 1st millenium BC who ruled Egypt during the 25th dynasty. They expanded their presence throughout the mediterranean at this time and would no doubt have been familiar to the Greeks when they finally rose to dominance over Egypt and elsewhere in the later 1st Millenium B.C. This are NOT the same people as the remnants of the old African derived populations from the early 2nd millenium B.C. referred to by Hansberry. Some of these people were derived from populations who ranged between modern Iran and India and this is why they still can be found in Baluchistan which is on the Eatern side of Iran, closer to India. Others were peoples of the Levant often called Canaanites and Phoenicians who were possibly descended from Natufian populations.

Either way, whatever the Greeks wrote about was more in reference to the ACTUAL state of Kush south of Egypt which WAS a prominant force across Africa and into the Mediterranean and India. However it doesnt mean that all those populations with darker skin complexion were KUSHITES. Many indians are indeed dark, but they arent Kushites.

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Clyde Winters
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What are you talking about. They were called Kushites.

If you notice I did not include Indians. I only include the people known as Kushites.

William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.

.

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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The Elamites called Susa: Khuz < Kus . The Sumerians called Susa: Kushshi.


The Kassites were chief rulers of Iran. The principal Kassite god was Kashshu, which was also the name they called themselves.

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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Hatti

Using boats the Kushites moved down ancient waterways many now dried up, to establish new towns in Asia and Europe after 3500 BC. The Kushites remained supreme around the world until 1400-1200 BC. During this period the Hua (Chinese) and Indo-European (I-E) speakers began to conquer the Kushites whose cities and economies were destroyed as a result of natural catastrophes which took place on the planet between 1400-1200 BC. Later, after 500 AD, Turkish speaking people began to settle parts of Central Asia. This is the reason behind the presence of the K-s-h element in many place names in Asia e.g., Kashgar, HinduKush, and Kosh. The HinduKush in Harappan times had lapis lazuli deposits.

Kushites expanded into Inner Asia from two primary points of dispersal : Iran and Anatolia. In Anatolia the Kushites were called Hattians and Kaska. In the 2nd millennium BC, the north and east of Anatolia was inhabited by non-I-E speakers.

Anatolia was divided into two lands “the land of Kanis” and the “land of Hatti”. The Hatti were related to the Kaska people who lived in the Pontic mountains.

Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place-names . The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites.

Singer (1981) has suggested that the Kaska, are remnants of the indigenous Hattian population which was forced northward by the Hittites. But at least as late as 1800 BC, Anatolia was basically settled by Hattians.

Anatolia was occupied by many Kushite groups,including the Kashkas and or Hatti. The Hatti , like the Dravidian speaking people were probably related .

References:

Itamar Singer, Hittites and Hattians in Anatolia at the beginning of the Second Millennium B.C., Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (1981), pp.119-149.

Gerd Steiner, The role of the Hittites in ancient Anatolia, Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (1981), 119-149.

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C. A. Winters

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What are you talking about. They were called Kushites.

If you notice I did not include Indians. I only include the people known as Kushites.

William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.


Nope you are stretching different terms in order to create a nonexistent entity from DIFFERENT populations with DIFFERENT names and DIFFERENT backgrounds, I am not saying that there werent darker skinned people in these areas in ancient times, but that they werent called KUSHITES, implying a SINGLE identity, culture and background for them all, which is absolutely false.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What are you talking about. They were called Kushites.

If you notice I did not include Indians. I only include the people known as Kushites.

William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.


Nope you are stretching different terms in order to create a nonexistent entity from DIFFERENT populations with DIFFERENT names and DIFFERENT backgrounds, I am not saying that there werent darker skinned people in these areas in ancient times, but that they werent called KUSHITES, implying a SINGLE identity, culture and background for them all, which is absolutely false.
I have presented the names of these people. Please cite the counter evidence illustrating that these people were not related to the Kushites of Africa. Right now you are only expressing your opinion.

.

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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What are you talking about. They were called Kushites.

If you notice I did not include Indians. I only include the people known as Kushites.

William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.

.

I agree, the Ancient Elamites were most likely a dark-skinned group...but you should use more evidence than mythological sources to frame your argument in saying the Elamites derived directly from Kush. Do the languages match, or cultural customs?
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What are you talking about. They were called Kushites.

If you notice I did not include Indians. I only include the people known as Kushites.

William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.

.

I agree, the Ancient Elamites were most likely a dark-skinned group...but you should use more evidence than mythological sources to frame your argument in saying the Elamites derived directly from Kush. Do the languages match, or cultural customs?
 -

Yes the languages match. See:

web page

 -

  • ELAMITE ENGLISH MANDING

    -ak and ka

    turna know, awaken kuna, fori

    sahri death sa

    murta to erect kura

    -mar from a place ma

    li give di

    tela to go tara

    Nap God Nala

    tus habitation du

    husu ill-omened dyugu

    kuta lance keru

    lan,lani silver dala

    ki one killi

    ta place ta

    kik sky,heaven ka

    sari sculpter se

    ufat steel tuufa

    tela to go ta

    khali great ka

    dau help deema

    ko king,lord ka

    na say na

    para to watch fere-ke
.
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Doug M
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^^Well Mr. Winters suffice to say you are drifting off into the realm of the ridiculous.

There were darker skinned populations in parts of Iran, Mesopotamia and the Levant in ancient times. That is a fact. However they were NOT called Kushites and the people who WERE referred to Kushites came MUCH LATER during the time of the ACTUAL EMPIRE of Kush, which was IN AFRICA and, for a time expanded North past Egypt into the Levant and east towards India. But that is NOT the same as the dark skinned populations and groups who existed in Iran, Mesopotamia and the Levant thousands of years prior to the golden age of Kush.

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Bettyboo
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Clyde Winters, you are right and wrong. There weren't a kushite population during those times because the "Kushite" empire yet didn't exist. However, the people who were first to populate the Middle East were black people who came from Africa and many were already in the Middle East since both lands were connected at one time. You can read that in the Bible. The "Cushite" tribe/empire/ethnicity/race/nation or whatever you want to call it didn't exist until the splitting of families due to confusion of language. At that time black people were already in Asia and after "Babel" they formed there own nations there and they weren't cushite people. They became known by "Elam" and of course many other nations were formed as well but I don't need to get into the whole bible. Just because the first people derive from the land we call "Africa" today doesn't mean those early people in Asia were or are part of the Cushite nation.
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Nay-Sayer
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quote:
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
You can read that in the Bible. The "Cushite" tribe/empire/ethnicity/race/nation or whatever you want to call it didn't exist until the splitting of families due to confusion of language. At that time black people were already in Asia and after "Babel" they formed there own nations there and they weren't cushite people.

The Bible, as a source, is next to useless...
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by Nay-Sayer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
You can read that in the Bible. The "Cushite" tribe/empire/ethnicity/race/nation or whatever you want to call it didn't exist until the splitting of families due to confusion of language. At that time black people were already in Asia and after "Babel" they formed there own nations there and they weren't cushite people.

The Bible, as a source, is next to useless...
That's your opinion. The bible don't teach world history, but you can read about civilizations and nations in the scriptures. According to the bible there were people already in Asia before a "Cushite" nation was formed.
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alTakruri
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Kushite comes from a Semitic root K-W-SH which
those speakers applied to all extremely dark
skinned people of whatever nation.

In all likelihood K-W-SH is a loan from another
Afrisan language. The ancient north and central
Sudanese applied a word QEVS (per Leo Hansberry)
to themselves.

Primary documentation reveals which nations in
antiquity, other than QEVS/Kesh/Kush proper,
called themselves K-W-SH-I.

Semitic speakers and Graeco-Latin writers referred
to all extemely dark skinned and darker skinned
individulas and nations as Kushites/Aithiopians
without regard to geographic location or actual nationality.

Maybe some few such nations were related to each
other by common descent but I suspect that the far
majority of them had little more in common than their colour.

As far as Kush and Aithiopia being synonymous, of
course there were Asian Kushites. For the Hebrews
nearly all of what today we call the Arabian
Peninsula was inhabited by Kushites. And the Greeks
call the southern Levant Aithiopia (see for instance the
Andromeda myth where Joppa -- today's Tel Aviv --
is the capital of one Aethiopia).

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
^^Well Mr. Winters suffice to say you are drifting off into the realm of the ridiculous.

There were darker skinned populations in parts of Iran, Mesopotamia and the Levant in ancient times. That is a fact. However they were NOT called Kushites and the people who WERE referred to Kushites came MUCH LATER during the time of the ACTUAL EMPIRE of Kush, which was IN AFRICA and, for a time expanded North past Egypt into the Levant and east towards India. But that is NOT the same as the dark skinned populations and groups who existed in Iran, Mesopotamia and the Levant thousands of years prior to the golden age of Kush.

You keep saying this but you have failed to provide any citations supporting this conclusion. My references are include in my post which show that they called themselves Kushites.

.

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Clyde Winters
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It is clear that many people believe that the name Kush was invented by the Egyptians and Hebrews. This is wrong this name was used by the Meroites and earlier Sudanic Blacks.

Laszlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization (Handbook of Oriental Studies, New York:Brill,1997) out lines the history of the term Kush in relation to the Kushites on pages 2-3.

Torok points out that the name for the first
ruler of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, Kashta, probably meant "the Kushite". He also noted that Kush, also appears as the ancestral kingdom of Piya in his Sandstone Stela and King Arqamani in the Second Century BC received the mortuary Horus name "The Kushite whose-coming-into-being -is divine".

In the Meroitic text the Meroites refer to themselves as Qes(h)( see: Torok, p.2-3: and J.Leclant:Recherches sur latoponymie meroitique, Tran. Centre de Recherche sur le Porche-Orient 4, (1975), p.105)in the Hamadab and Tanyidamani Stelas.

The textual evidence make it obvious that the people of Meroe, and earlier rulers of Egypt from the same region, called themselves Kushites.

The Egyptians and Hebrews called the Meroites Kushites because it was the name they called themselves.

The Asian Kushites also called themselves Kushite as noted above.


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Djehuti
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^ What you have here is another example of Clyde Winters black Nationalism (supremacy) at work. And as usual all of his claims are not only false but hilarious. [Big Grin]

[Embarrassed] Of course all the smart people in here know that most of the Asiatics Clyde lists are NOT black, and that those who were have NOTHING to do with the Neolithic Sahara.

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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Kushite comes from a Semitic root K-W-SH which
those speakers applied to all extremely dark
skinned people of whatever nation.

In all likelihood K-W-SH is a loan from another
Afrisan language. The ancient north and central
Sudanese applied a word QEVS (per Leo Hansberry)
to themselves.

Primary documentation reveals which nations in
antiquity, other than QEVS/Kesh/Kush proper,
called themselves K-W-SH-I.

Semitic speakers and Graeco-Latin writers referred
to all extemely dark skinned and darker skinned
individulas and nations as Kushites/Aithiopians
without regard to geographic location or actual nationality.

Maybe some few such nations were related to each
other by common descent but I suspect that the far
majority of them had little more in common than their colour.

As far as Kush and Aithiopia being synonymous, of
course there were Asian Kushites. For the Hebrews
nearly all of what today we call the Arabian
Peninsula was inhabited by Kushites. And the Greeks
call the southern Levant Aithiopia (see for instance the
Andromeda myth where Joppa -- today's Tel Aviv --
is the capital of one Aethiopia).

Okay, I think I have an idea now. This does make a lot of sense.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ What you have here is another example of Clyde Winters black Nationalism (supremacy) at work. And as usual all of his claims are not only false but hilarious. [Big Grin]

[Embarrassed] Of course all the smart people in here know that most of the Asiatics Clyde lists are NOT black, and that those who were have NOTHING to do with the Neolithic Sahara.

Truth hurts a Troll. Only fools will follow your ignorant leadership

.

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Djehuti
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^ Well good thing is I am not a troll and neither am I trying to "lead" anyone on this forum unlike you who has brain-dead minions like Marc and Lord of Denial at your heels. [Big Grin]
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alTakruri
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I wonder if both Torok and Hansberry's sources
ultimately rely on the same Meroitic text for
Qes/QEVS?

Hansberry says that Sayce and Griffith, of Oxford, based
on an inscription, the people under question themselves
used Qevs as the designation of their own country.

Unfortunately William Leo Hansberry died before he
could publish the information in Africa & Africans
himself and the published book's editor, Joseph
Harris, occluded footnotes.

However I did find this in the biblio:

Griffith, F. L.

Meroitic Studies III and IV

Journal of Egyptian Archeaology v4
London, 1917
pp. 21-24, 159-173


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is clear that many people believe that the name Kush was invented by the Egyptians and Hebrews. This is wrong this name was used by the Meroites and earlier Sudanic Blacks.

Laszlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization (Handbook of Oriental Studies, New York:Brill,1997) out lines the history of the term Kush in relation to the Kushites on pages 2-3.

Torok points out that the name for the first
ruler of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, Kashta, probably meant "the Kushite". He also noted that Kush, also appears as the ancestral kingdom of Piya in his Sandstone Stela and King Arqamani in the Second Century BC received the mortuary Horus name "The Kushite whose-coming-into-being -is divine".

In the Meroitic text the Meroites refer to themselves as Qes(h)( see: Torok, p.2-3:
and J.Leclant:Recherches sur latoponymie meroitique, Tran. Centre de Recherche sur le Porche-Orient 4, (1975), p.105)in the Hamadab and Tanyidamani Stelas.

The textual evidence make it obvious that the people of Meroe, and earlier rulers of Egypt from the same region, called themselves Kushites.

The Egyptians and Hebrews called the Meroites Kushites because it was the name they called themselves.


The Asian Kushites also called themselves Kushite as noted above.




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Clyde Winters
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Origin of Greek influences on Indian Languages


As I have said before, the inclusion of Indian languages into the Indo-European language family can be explained by Alexander's defeat of North India, not so Proto-Historic connection between the speakers of these languages. At the end of the 18th century Sir William Jones, suggested that Sanskrit was closely related to Western languages that could not be attributed purely to chance. Jones maintained that these Indic and European languages must be descended from a common ancestor. It was from this observation that Indo-European linguistics
was born.

In Sir Jones time we knew little about the history of the Greeks in India. Today we know much more about the historical evidence relating to Greek influence in India. The textual material make it
clear that when Sanskrit was codified Greek was spoken by many Indians and due to bilingualism, Greek elements probably used in the Prakrits
and everyday speech became part of the link language: Sanskrit.

An intruding community like the Greeks in Central Asia did not have to outnumber the colonized people in Bactria to impact on the language of the original Bactrians and Indians. The mere fact that
the new speech community, although spoken by people ethnically different, was now recognized as socially superior to the subject peoples of Bactria, it was useful for Bactrians and Indians to become bilingual so they would be able to
function both within their own culture and the new culture introduced by the conquering Greeks. This hypothesis is congruent with Ehret's
(1988:569) view that people make cultural choices on the basis of what appears to be most advantageous to the lives they live.

It was in Pakistan that the Greek language was
probably incorporated into Sanskrit. Many of the rules for Sanskrit were codified by Panini, who was born in Salatura, in Northwest Pakistan.

Panini's Vedic grammar contains 4000 rules.

When Panini wrote his grammar of Sanskrit, it was
spoken by the elites in the area. Greek was also popular when Panini wrote the Sanskrit grammar.

The Greeks were called Yunani or Yavana. Thus we
learn from Agrawala (1953) that the Yavanani lipi
(edict) was well known in Gandahara, and even Panini mentions the Yavana in his grammar. The term Yauna meant Ionian (Woodcock, 1966).

The history of Greeks in the area is quite interesting. When Alexander entered the HinduKush region in 327 B.C., Greek settlements were already in the area. By 180 BC, as the Mauryas fell into decline,the Greek Kings of Bactria took control of Western Punjab and Gandhara up to the Indus River. Under King Menander (d.130 B.C.) the Greeks had their capital at Taxila.

The center of Greek culture in the area was Charsadda near Peshawar (Woodcock,1966). Just as Greek terms entered Hinduism, it was also during this period that the extreme caste system,which strickly divided the people along socio-economic
lines was probably introduced. Under this
Eurocentric-Hindu view you could accept the fact that one group could be doomed to suffer, until rebirth changed his condition. This was the perfect system for the EGO-centered man of Greece, and was readily adopted by many Indians as they became acculturated to Greek rule, because it allowed one to ignore his fellow man while he satiated his personal desires and lust without fear of being punished.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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I don't believe they relied on the same documents, Torok mentions a number of text he used in his study. The term Qes, was also used to identify the Kushites in the Tanyidamani Stela. This is the longest Meroitic inscription known, See:

C.A Winters.(1999). Inscriptions of Tanydamani, Nubica et Ethiopica, IV/V, 355-388.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I wonder if both Torok and Hansberry's sources
ultimately rely on the same Meroitic text for
Qes/QEVS?

Hansberry says that Sayce and Griffith, of Oxford, based
on an inscription, the people under question themselves
used Qevs as the designation of their own country.

Unfortunately William Leo Hansberry died before he
could publish the information in Africa & Africans
himself and the published book's editor, Joseph
Harris, occluded footnotes.

However I did find this in the biblio:

Griffith, F. L.

Meroitic Studies III and IV

Journal of Egyptian Archeaology v4
London, 1917
pp. 21-24, 159-173


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
It is clear that many people believe that the name Kush was invented by the Egyptians and Hebrews. This is wrong this name was used by the Meroites and earlier Sudanic Blacks.

Laszlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization (Handbook of Oriental Studies, New York:Brill,1997) out lines the history of the term Kush in relation to the Kushites on pages 2-3.

Torok points out that the name for the first
ruler of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, Kashta, probably meant "the Kushite". He also noted that Kush, also appears as the ancestral kingdom of Piya in his Sandstone Stela and King Arqamani in the Second Century BC received the mortuary Horus name "The Kushite whose-coming-into-being -is divine".

In the Meroitic text the Meroites refer to themselves as Qes(h)( see: Torok, p.2-3:
and J.Leclant:Recherches sur latoponymie meroitique, Tran. Centre de Recherche sur le Porche-Orient 4, (1975), p.105)in the Hamadab and Tanyidamani Stelas.

The textual evidence make it obvious that the people of Meroe, and earlier rulers of Egypt from the same region, called themselves Kushites.

The Egyptians and Hebrews called the Meroites Kushites because it was the name they called themselves.


The Asian Kushites also called themselves Kushite as noted above.





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Djehuti
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^ Repetition of the same ridiculous lie. First of all, linguistics and historical evidence not only show that Vedic Sanskrit is an entirely Indo-European language and NOT the result of some "influence" from Greek, but that Sanskrit is even older than the Classical Greek language. What's more is that Alexander never conquered India!! He made an expedition to India of which he reached the Indus River but was forced to turn back through conflict with the natives as well as the harsh environment. He died shortly thereafter and his generals were only able to rule as far east as Afghanistan NOT India!!

Your propensity to lie about basic historical facts continues to amaze and at the same time entertain me! The linguistic idea that Sanskrit was a result of "Greek influence" is as ridiculous as your theory of Dravidian being derived from Mande or Anatolian Hurrian being Kushite! LOL [Big Grin]

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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
What are you talking about. They were called Kushites.

If you notice I did not include Indians. I only include the people known as Kushites.

William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.

.

I agree, the Ancient Elamites were most likely a dark-skinned group...but you should use more evidence than mythological sources to frame your argument in saying the Elamites derived directly from Kush. Do the languages match, or cultural customs?
 -

Yes the languages match. See:

web page

 -

  • ELAMITE ENGLISH MANDING

    -ak and ka

    turna know, awaken kuna, fori

    sahri death sa

    murta to erect kura

    -mar from a place ma

    li give di

    tela to go tara

    Nap God Nala

    tus habitation du

    husu ill-omened dyugu

    kuta lance keru

    lan,lani silver dala

    ki one killi

    ta place ta

    kik sky,heaven ka

    sari sculpter se

    ufat steel tuufa

    tela to go ta

    khali great ka

    dau help deema

    ko king,lord ka

    na say na

    para to watch fere-ke
.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about linguistic relations to Kush? Did they speak an Afro-Asiatic language? Actually, if they were Kushite, then shouldn't their language be very similiar to Meroitic?

EDIT: Nevermind, Kush the empire came later. But what language family were they in?

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Yonis
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quote:
EDIT: Nevermind, Kush the empire came later. But what language family were they in?
Most likely Afrasian, but their language hasn't been classified yet.
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Clyde Winters
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King_Scorpion
quote:



I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about linguistic relations to Kush? Did they speak an Afro-Asiatic language? Actually, if they were Kushite, then shouldn't their language be very similiar to Meroitic?

EDIT: Nevermind, Kush the empire came later. But what language family were they in?


We may never know what language was spoken by the Meroites. The Kushite empire was a Confederation. The Kushites are archaeologically usually associated with the C-Group. The C-Group was made up of numerous groups including Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Conger speakers. All of these Superlanguage families have their origin in Nubia.

Because the Kushite empire was a Confederation the people used a lingua franca, first Egyptian writing and later Meroitic for purposes of communication. Most researchers have implied that the Meroites may have spoke Nubian or Beja. This can not be supported by the evidence. These languages were not even spoken by the Meroites. Both groups lived north of the Meroitic Empire.

To decipher Meroitic I used the Kushana language. Europeans prefer to call the language Tokarian, which was not the name for the language given its speakers. As I have shown from the pictures above Central Asia, Iran and etc. was a region where many nationalities formerly lived. Kushana was used as a lingua franca so the people in the region could communicate effectively.

The Kushana language has at its base Dravidian (i.e., Tamil). It is closely related to Dravidian and Mande languages.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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 -

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

Most likely Afrasian, but their language hasn't been classified yet.

Based on what? No serious linguist has proposed Kushite language to be Afrasan. We've been through this.
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Hotep2u
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Greetings:

Clyde Winters wrote:
quote:
The C-Group was made up of numerous groups including Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Conger speakers. All of these Superlanguage families have their origin in Nubia .

What proof do you have that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo have their origin in the Sudan?

When you use Nubia do you mean the Nuba ethnic group?

Hotep

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:

Clyde Winters wrote:
quote:
The C-Group was made up of numerous groups including Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Conger speakers. All of these Superlanguage families have their origin in Nubia .

What proof do you have that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo have their origin in the Sudan?

When you use Nubia do you mean the Nuba ethnic group?

Hotep

When I use Nubia, it is in reference to parts of Egypt and the Sudan idetified by this toponym by most researchers.

The Nuba have nothing to do with the Kushites. The Nuba only began to enter the Meroitic Empire in Roman times. Before then they lived north of the Meroitic empire.

The Nubian origin of Niger-Congo is based on the research of Welmers. See:Welmers,Wm.1971. "Niger-Congo Mande". Current Trends in Linguistics , 7:113-140.

Controversy surrounds the classification of the Niger-Congo Superfamily, especially the Mande group. Greenberg (1963) popularized the idea that the Mande subset was a member of the Niger-Congo Superset of Africa languages.

The position of Mande in the Niger-Congo Superset has long been precarious and today it is given a peripheral status to the Niger-Congo Superset (Bennett & Sterk 1977; Dalby 1988). Murkarovsky (1966) believes that the Mande group of languages does not belong in the Niger-Congo Superset, while Welmers (1971) and Bennett and Sterk (1977) has advanced the idea that Mande was the first group to break away from Niger-Congo, because of its loss of the noun class system.

The Mande languages are closely related to Songhay (Blench,1995; Mukarovsky 1976/77; Zima 1989), Nilo-Saharan ( Boyd 1978; Creissels 1981; Bender 1981) and the Chadic group. Zima (1989) compared 25 Songhay and Mandekan terms from the cultural vocabulary to highlight the correspondence between these two language groups.

Zima (1989:110) made it clear that "the lexical affinities between the Songhay and Mande languages are evident".This view was confirmed by Creissels (1981) who has provided many morphological and lexical similarities between Songhay and Mande, which are too numerous to be accounted for by chance.

Blench (1995)and B. Heine and D. Nurse, African Languages: An Introduction (pp.16-17) believes that the Niger-Congo (Mande) is especially closely united with Central Sudani and Kabu within Nilo-Saharan.

Mukarovsky (1987) has presented hundreds of analogous Mande and Cushitic terms. Due to the similarities between the Mande and Cushitic language families Mukarovsky (1987) would place Mande into the Afro-Asiatic Superset of languages.

This view is not surprising since the Mande languages are closely connected to Coptic as well.

This linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Cushitic speakers originally lived intimate contact. It also confirms the general theory advanced by Obenga and Diop that a Black African family exist, which includes Egyptian and the majority of African languages spoken in Africa today.


.

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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:

Clyde Winters wrote:
quote:
The C-Group was made up of numerous groups including Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Conger speakers. All of these Superlanguage families have their origin in Nubia .

What proof do you have that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo have their origin in the Sudan?

When you use Nubia do you mean the Nuba ethnic group?

Hotep

When I use Nubia, it is in reference to parts of Egypt and the Sudan idetified by this toponym by most researchers.

The Nuba have nothing to do with the Kushites. The Nuba only began to enter the Meroitic Empire in Roman times. Before then they lived north of the Meroitic empire.

The Nubian origin of Niger-Congo is based on the research of Welmers. See:Welmers,Wm.1971. "Niger-Congo Mande". Current Trends in Linguistics , 7:113-140.

Controversy surrounds the classification of the Niger-Congo Superfamily, especially the Mande group. Greenberg (1963) popularized the idea that the Mande subset was a member of the Niger-Congo Superset of Africa languages.

The position of Mande in the Niger-Congo Superset has long been precarious and today it is given a peripheral status to the Niger-Congo Superset (Bennett & Sterk 1977; Dalby 1988). Murkarovsky (1966) believes that the Mande group of languages does not belong in the Niger-Congo Superset, while Welmers (1971) and Bennett and Sterk (1977) has advanced the idea that Mande was the first group to break away from Niger-Congo, because of its loss of the noun class system.

The Mande languages are closely related to Songhay (Blench,1995; Mukarovsky 1976/77; Zima 1989), Nilo-Saharan ( Boyd 1978; Creissels 1981; Bender 1981) and the Chadic group. Zima (1989) compared 25 Songhay and Mandekan terms from the cultural vocabulary to highlight the correspondence between these two language groups.

Zima (1989:110) made it clear that "the lexical affinities between the Songhay and Mande languages are evident".This view was confirmed by Creissels (1981) who has provided many morphological and lexical similarities between Songhay and Mande, which are too numerous to be accounted for by chance.

Blench (1995)and B. Heine and D. Nurse, African Languages: An Introduction (pp.16-17) believes that the Niger-Congo (Mande) is especially closely united with Central Sudani and Kabu within Nilo-Saharan.

Mukarovsky (1987) has presented hundreds of analogous Mande and Cushitic terms. Due to the similarities between the Mande and Cushitic language families Mukarovsky (1987) would place Mande into the Afro-Asiatic Superset of languages.

This view is not surprising since the Mande languages are closely connected to Coptic as well.

This linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Cushitic speakers originally lived intimate contact. It also confirms the general theory advanced by Obenga and Diop that a Black African family exist, which includes Egyptian and the majority of African languages spoken in Africa today.


.

^Good find. This is the first time I've actually seen you refer to numerous other scholars outside of yourself...lol.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

Most likely Afrasian, but their language hasn't been classified yet.

Based on what? No serious linguist has proposed Kushite language to be Afrasan. We've been through this.
^ Indeed, we've been through this for like, what?.. 50 to 60 times now?

The Elamite language has not been deciphered yet, but judging by the Elamite names and few words known from Sumerian records there are some scholars who think the Elamite language bears some relation, perhaps distantly, to Dravidian languages. Either way, it is a language that is Eurasian in origin and has nothing to do with Afrasian; definitely not Niger-Congo as Winters claims! LOL

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fellati achawi
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dr clyde have you seen the bassa(liberia) claim of being part of the kushite empire

--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

When I use Nubia, it is in reference to parts of Egypt and the Sudan idetified by this toponym by most researchers.

Here on Egyptsearch, many of us have by now come to grips with the Eurocentric ruse of "Nubia", and hence, no need to dumben it down. Lazily, it is on this basis that some use the term in quotation marks. Progress is the way to go.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

The Nuba have nothing to do with the Kushites. The Nuba only began to enter the Meroitic Empire in Roman times. Before then they lived north of the Meroitic empire.

Many of the contemporary so-called Nubian speakers are remnants of Kushites. You have no evidence that they have been wiped out. We've also been through this issue.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

The Nubian origin of Niger-Congo is based on the research of Welmers. See:Welmers,Wm.1971. "Niger-Congo Mande". Current Trends in Linguistics , 7:113-140.

The Niger-Congo superfamily has it roots somewhere in the Sahara, likely in the central portion. Eastern Sahara cannot be excluded.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Controversy surrounds the classification of the Niger-Congo Superfamily, especially the Mande group. Greenberg (1963) popularized the idea that the Mande subset was a member of the Niger-Congo Superset of Africa languages.

The position of Mande in the Niger-Congo Superset has long been precarious and today it is given a peripheral status to the Niger-Congo Superset (Bennett & Sterk 1977; Dalby 1988). Murkarovsky (1966) believes that the Mande group of languages does not belong in the Niger-Congo Superset, while Welmers (1971) and Bennett and Sterk (1977) has advanced the idea that Mande was the first group to break away from Niger-Congo, because of its loss of the noun class system.

Essentially proposing that it is a distinct language family on its own?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

The Mande languages are closely related to Songhay (Blench,1995; Mukarovsky 1976/77; Zima 1989), Nilo-Saharan ( Boyd 1978; Creissels 1981; Bender 1981) and the Chadic group. Zima (1989) compared 25 Songhay and Mandekan terms from the cultural vocabulary to highlight the correspondence between these two language groups.

So, Songhay wouldn't be considered part of the Niger-Congo family either?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Mukarovsky (1987) has presented hundreds of analogous Mande and Cushitic terms. Due to the similarities between the Mande and Cushitic language families Mukarovsky (1987) would place Mande into the Afro-Asiatic Superset of languages.

And what cognates does he propose for this?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

This linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Cushitic speakers originally lived intimate contact.

Naturally, given the relatively recent divergances of these major African languages, and historic interactions between the groups in them, they are bound to be related to some degree or another. This doesn't however preclude the yet relatively closer relationships between groups under the family.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

It also confirms the general theory advanced by Obenga and Diop that a Black African family exist, which includes Egyptian and the majority of African languages spoken in Africa today.

What then is the "non-black" African family?
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:

Clyde Winters wrote:
quote:
The C-Group was made up of numerous groups including Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Conger speakers. All of these Superlanguage families have their origin in Nubia .

What proof do you have that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo have their origin in the Sudan?

When you use Nubia do you mean the Nuba ethnic group?

Hotep

When I use Nubia, it is in reference to parts of Egypt and the Sudan idetified by this toponym by most researchers.

The Nuba have nothing to do with the Kushites. The Nuba only began to enter the Meroitic Empire in Roman times. Before then they lived north of the Meroitic empire.

The Nubian origin of Niger-Congo is based on the research of Welmers. See:Welmers,Wm.1971. "Niger-Congo Mande". Current Trends in Linguistics , 7:113-140.

Controversy surrounds the classification of the Niger-Congo Superfamily, especially the Mande group. Greenberg (1963) popularized the idea that the Mande subset was a member of the Niger-Congo Superset of Africa languages.

The position of Mande in the Niger-Congo Superset has long been precarious and today it is given a peripheral status to the Niger-Congo Superset (Bennett & Sterk 1977; Dalby 1988). Murkarovsky (1966) believes that the Mande group of languages does not belong in the Niger-Congo Superset, while Welmers (1971) and Bennett and Sterk (1977) has advanced the idea that Mande was the first group to break away from Niger-Congo, because of its loss of the noun class system.

The Mande languages are closely related to Songhay (Blench,1995; Mukarovsky 1976/77; Zima 1989), Nilo-Saharan ( Boyd 1978; Creissels 1981; Bender 1981) and the Chadic group. Zima (1989) compared 25 Songhay and Mandekan terms from the cultural vocabulary to highlight the correspondence between these two language groups.

Zima (1989:110) made it clear that "the lexical affinities between the Songhay and Mande languages are evident".This view was confirmed by Creissels (1981) who has provided many morphological and lexical similarities between Songhay and Mande, which are too numerous to be accounted for by chance.

Blench (1995)and B. Heine and D. Nurse, African Languages: An Introduction (pp.16-17) believes that the Niger-Congo (Mande) is especially closely united with Central Sudani and Kabu within Nilo-Saharan.

Mukarovsky (1987) has presented hundreds of analogous Mande and Cushitic terms. Due to the similarities between the Mande and Cushitic language families Mukarovsky (1987) would place Mande into the Afro-Asiatic Superset of languages.

This view is not surprising since the Mande languages are closely connected to Coptic as well.

This linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Cushitic speakers originally lived intimate contact. It also confirms the general theory advanced by Obenga and Diop that a Black African family exist, which includes Egyptian and the majority of African languages spoken in Africa today.


.

^Good find. This is the first time I've actually seen you refer to numerous other scholars outside of yourself...lol.
This would not be news to you if you had read any of the almost 200 articles I have published over the years.

.

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quote:
Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
dr clyde have you seen the bassa(liberia) claim of being part of the kushite empire

No can you tell us more about them.
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Clyde Winters
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Mystery Solver
quote:


The Niger-Congo superfamily has it roots somewhere in the Sahara, likely in the central portion. Eastern Sahara cannot be excluded.



Please elaborate. The idea seems interesting.

Mystery Solver
quote:


What then is the "non-black" African family?

There are three non-African family languages spoken in Africa:

1.Afrikans in South Africa

2. English and French which is spoken among millions of Africans.

3. Arabic

Mystery Solver
quote:

Many of the contemporary so-called Nubian speakers are remnants of Kushites. You have no evidence that they have been wiped out. We've also been through this issue.


Please cite any source dating to Roman times or later that associates the Nuba with the Meroitic Empire. Tyhe Nubians did not live in the Meroitic Empire.

The Nubians or Nobatai lived in the area from Aswan to Maharraqa called the Dodekaschoenas which was first under the rule of the Ptolemies and later the Romans. Most researchers believe that by 200 BC most of the region was occupied by Nubians. David O'Connor makes it clear in Ancientr Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa (1993), that the Nubians or Nobatai "adopted a Romano-Egyptian culture very different from that of Meroitic Lower Nubia" (p.72).Welsby, in The Kingdom of Kush,also believes the area was not fully occupied by Meroites. But there were some Meroites in the major cities. When the Romans left the area in AD 270, the Diocletian agreement was between the Nobatae and the Romans, not the Romans and Kushites.

Mystery Solver

quote:


So, Songhay wouldn't be considered part of the Niger-Congo family either?



Right. Songhay is classed as a Nilo-Saharan language.


.

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C. A. Winters

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver
quote:


The Niger-Congo superfamily has it roots somewhere in the Sahara, likely in the central portion. Eastern Sahara cannot be excluded.



Please elaborate. The idea seems interesting.
My assessment is mainly based on 'correlative' observation between lineage biohistory and distribution, and language distribution.

Relevant discussion on genetics:
Proposing the region of split b/n PN2 derived lineages

But Ehret seems to have an interesting case:

The most recent of these episodes dates to around 20,000 years ago, at the
time of maximum dry climate in Africa.

In this period, it can be argued, northeastern Africa became a refugium into which populations from distant parts of the continent retreated.


According to the most recent findings, each of the four established families—Nilo-Saharan, Afroasiatic, Niger-Kordofanian, and Khoisan—divides at the deepest level into two primary
branches.

In each case one primary branch is spread widely across Africa, while the other primary branch is restricted to one adjacent set of regions in northeastern Africa.

The Omotic primary branch of Afroasiatic is limited to southwestern Ethiopia (Bender 1974, Fleming 1974, Ehret 1995b). One Nilo-Saharan primary branch, Koman, is spoken at the edge of the Ethiopian highlands, immediately adjacent to the Omotic lands (Ehret 2001).

The Kordofanian primary branch of Niger-Kordofanian is spoken in the Nuba Mountains, only 200-300 kilometers from Koman and Omotic languages (Williamson and Blench 2000).

In Khoisan, the restricted primary branch, Hadza, is found somewhat farther off, but still nearby, in East Africa (Ehret forthcoming).

The inescapable import of these findings is that most probable origin place of each of the African language families lay in one composite African region, comprising the southern Middle Nile Basin, the adjacent western and southern parts of the Ethiopian highlands, and certain nearby areas of East Africa (Ehret 1984; Blench 1993).

Making this case still more compelling, we now have strong evidence for postulating a fifth distinct African language family, consisting today of a single remaining language, Shabo.

This language is spoken by a small community of hunter-gatherers located in far southwestern Ethiopia, right in the middle of the origin areas we must postulate for the other four families (Ehret 1995a).

Those scholars who have studied the issue of time depth in the four established families agree that very long chronologies must be postulated (Fleming 1977; Ehret 2000b, 2003).

Ehret has argued from proposed archaeological correlations that the minimum time depth of the Khoisan and Afroasiatic language families is 20,000 years, while the Niger-Kordofanian and Nilo-Saharan time depths may possibly be somewhat shorter, at 15,000 to 20,000 years (Ehret 2000a).

From these adjacent regions, the various families of Africa then spread out to repopulate
the continent during the periods after 20,000 years ago.


Discussed here: Ehret, African Language Family Histories


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver
quote:


What then is the "non-black" African family?

There are three non-African family languages spoken in Africa:

1.Afrikans in South Africa

2. English and French which is spoken among millions of Africans.

3. Arabic

These are not African languages; they are and/or direct derivatives of languages with origins elsewhere, rendering your calling them African language families, a non-starter.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver
quote:

Many of the contemporary so-called Nubian speakers are remnants of Kushites. You have no evidence that they have been wiped out. We've also been through this issue.


Please cite any source dating to Roman times or later that associates the Nuba with the Meroitic Empire. Tyhe Nubians did not live in the Meroitic Empire.
Immaterial. In a previous topic, you were ask to confront linguistic reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan affiliation with Kushitic terms, referencing Rilly's work, as well as the dubious connections with Tocharian et al., but you couldn't deliver. You were also asked to confront genetic evidence, and you failed. You have no evidence whatsoever that Nile Valley populations, particularly Kushites/Meroites, were wiped out leaving no descendants.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

David O'Connor makes it clear in Ancientr Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa (1993), that the Nubians or Nobatai "adopted a Romano-Egyptian culture very different from that of Meroitic Lower Nubia" (p.72).Welsby, in The Kingdom of Kush,also believes the area was not fully occupied by Meroites.

Apparently there were various cultural shifts throughout history along the Nile Valley, but no evidence of population displacement. What biological and genetic evidence do you have of this?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver

quote:


So, Songhay wouldn't be considered part of the Niger-Congo family either?

Right. Songhay is classed as a Nilo-Saharan language.
Based on what specific factors, including cognates, which are common to Songhay and Nilo-Saharan but presumably absent in the Niger-congo superfamily?
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver

quote:


So, Songhay wouldn't be considered part of the Niger-Congo family either?

Right. Songhay is classed as a Nilo-Saharan language.
Based on what specific factors, including cognates, which are common to Songhay and Nilo-Saharan but presumably absent in the Niger-congo superfamily?
Nevermind. I double-checked on this particular point, and it seems to be consistent with what you said. That said, I look forward to feedback on the rest of the issues under discussion.
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Clyde Winters
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Mystery Solver

quote:

quote:Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver

quote:

What then is the "non-black" African family?

There are three non-African family languages spoken in Africa:

1.Afrikans in South Africa

2. English and French which is spoken among millions of Africans.

3. Arabic

These are not African languages; they are and/or direct derivatives of languages with origins elsewhere, rendering your calling them African language families, a non-starter.



The origin of the language has nothing to do with where it is spoken and nativized. For example, the North American language is English. It originated elsewhere but it is recognized as the North American language since it is spoken by most people in the United States and Canada.

Arabic, Afrikaans and English/French are the first language of many Africans. Since this is their native language like Kikuyu or Akan, these languages can be considered African.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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rasol
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quote:
The origin of the language has nothing to do with where it is spoken and nativized. For example, the North American language is English. It originated elsewhere but it is recognized as the North American language since it is spoken by most people in the United States and Canada.
I don't follow you.

In linguistics - English isn't recognized as a North American language any more than it is recognized as a West African language.

You seem to be substituting politics when the issue is obviously linguistics.

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Clyde Winters
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Mystery Solver
quote:


quote:Clyde Winters:

David O'Connor makes it clear in Ancientr Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa (1993), that the Nubians or Nobatai "adopted a Romano-Egyptian culture very different from that of Meroitic Lower Nubia" (p.72).Welsby, in The Kingdom of Kush,also believes the area was not fully occupied by Meroites.

Apparently there were various cultural shifts throughout history along the Nile Valley, but no evidence of population displacement. What biological and genetic evidence do you have of this?



Who needs any biological or genetic evidence. Bones and mtDNA can not tell you what language a person speaks. It can only show you what population they may be associated with.

The textual evidence relating to the rise and expansion of the Nubian speakers is all the evidence you need to support this truth. If the Nubians were always in conflict with the Meroites, we can not claim that these people were Kushites.

.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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rasol
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quote:
Bones and mtDNA can not tell you what language a person speaks.

The textual evidence relating to the rise and expansion of the Nubian speakers is all the evidence you need to support this truth.

The problem with the above is that most langauges throughout most of their history offer no textual [written] evidence.

And textual evidence itself offers no more direct proof of who exactly spoke a langauge or where exactly the langauge originated from than any other kind of evidence.

A good example is Meriotic and Olmec.

The textual evidence is found in Sudan and Mexico respectively, but you claim these writings came from India and West Africa.

In my opinion your ability to make this claim shows you how 'flexible' your conception of the discipline of linguistics is.

In other words: when anything goes, little can be either affirmed or ruled out.

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Mystery Solver
quote:

Immaterial. In a previous topic, you were ask to confront linguistic reconstructions of Nilo-Saharan affiliation with Kushitic terms, referencing Rilly's work, as well as the dubious connections with Tocharian et al., but you couldn't deliver. You were also asked to confront genetic evidence, and you failed. You have no evidence whatsoever that Nile Valley populations, particularly Kushites/Meroites, were wiped out leaving no descendants.



What genetic evidence exist of the actual mtDNA and Y chromosomes of the Meroites recovered from Meroitic graves? There is none. As a result, researchers are speculating on population genetics 3000 years ago, based on genetic material carried by contempory Sudanic people. Call this "evidence" what it is: i.e., pure speculation and conjecture.

I never said the Meroites were wiped out. I believe they just migrated into West Africa. This would explain the genetic relationship between Egyptian and other languages spoken by Black Africans.

I also maintain that the composition of the Meroitic Empire was ethnically diverse. As a result, they used first Egyptian, and later Meroitic as a lingua franca. Since Meroitic was a lingua franca you can not use language(s) spoken by contemporary groups living in the fomer Meroitic Empire, to identify any remnants of the Kushites presently living in the former environs of the Meroitic Empire.

Finally, I dispute Rilly research because 1) he claims that the Meroites spoke a language similar to Nubian (which according to the textual evidence was not spoken by any Kushites) a people who practiced an Egypto-Roman culture; and 2) he is attempting to read Meroitic using Proto-Nilo-Saharan, when he does not have any evidence of the various languages spoken by the Meroites. lacking evidence on the languages spoken by the ancient Meroites makes it impossible to reconstruct Proto-Meroitic.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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BrandonP
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I suppose Clyde Winters is going to claim next that the Nazis were black.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
The origin of the language has nothing to do with where it is spoken and nativized. For example, the North American language is English. It originated elsewhere but it is recognized as the North American language since it is spoken by most people in the United States and Canada.
I don't follow you.

In linguistics - English isn't recognized as a North American language any more than it is recognized as a West African language.

You seem to be substituting politics when the issue is obviously linguistics.

When it comes to national language politics influence linguistics. In Mesopotamia, the earliest language written in the area was Sumerian. Once Akkadians came on the see the national language was Akkadian. We know that the original inhabitants of the land spoke Ubadian, yet we associate Sumerian and Akkadians as the language of the Mesopotamians.

In Nigeria, the majority of the people speak Yoruba and Hausa. But the official language is English, since it serves as a lingua franca, much like Meroitic that ensures communication between the divesrse nationalities in Nigeria.

Also, if English is not the language of North America, what is the native language of the vast majority of North Americans?

.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:
I suppose Clyde Winters is going to claim next that the Nazis were black.

No they were white racist who murdered millions of other whites. [Frown]

.

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