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Author Topic: O.T. Asian Kushites
Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


quote:
Mystery Solver:

quote:
Clyde Winters:

There are three non-African family languages spoken in Africa:

1.Afrikans in South Africa

2. English and French which is spoken among millions of Africans.

3. Arabic

These are not African languages; they are and/or direct derivatives of languages with origins elsewhere, rendering your calling them African language families, a non-starter.


The origin of the language has nothing to do
with where it is spoken and nativized.

This answer is a clear indicator that your idea of 'black African' languages is B.S., because you come up with no such thing as a "non-black" African language. Whom here do you suppose is that intellectually numb to buy into passing a list of largely non-African [not same as 'non-black' African] languages as African language families?


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Who needs any biological or genetic evidence.

It is not 'who'; it is 'what' needs genetic or biological evidence? That would be your claim about contemporary so-called Nubians not being descendants of ancient Kushites, and suggesting population displacement. Your biological evidence for this claim is still pending.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Bones and mtDNA can not tell you what language a person speaks.

Come back to planet earth. We are talking about your biological evidence for a population being wiped out, because that is the only evidence that can support your shaky claims of Kushite descendants being traceless. If they aren't to be found in contemporary so-called Nubian groups, where then; in Nigeria perhaps, or India amongst Dravidians?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

The textual evidence relating to the rise and expansion of the Nubian speakers is all the evidence you need to support this truth.

False, but linguistic material can work as a supplimentary evidence.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

If the Nubians were always in conflict with the Meroites, we can not claim that these people were Kushites.

Judging by your careless use of terms, it may well be said that "Nubians" were always in conflict with "Nubians". "Nubian" is a term imposed on these people as a group. Which Nile Valley groups calls themselves "Nubian"? It has become a Euro-contextualized term to place certain Nilo-Saharan dialects of the Nile Valley into a family.
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

What genetic evidence exist of the actual mtDNA and Y chromosomes of the Meroites recovered from Meroitic graves? There is none.

This is one of those answers that makes it clear that you know next to nothing about genetics...like the time you couldn't even tell the difference between the male and female lineage.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

I never said the Meroites were wiped out. I believe they just migrated into West Africa. This would explain the genetic relationship between Egyptian and other languages spoken by Black Africans.

This would be population displacement, and requires genetic evidence, bio-anthropological and linguistic evidence.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

I also maintain that the composition of the Meroitic Empire was ethnically diverse. As a result, they used first Egyptian, and later Meroitic as a lingua franca. Since Meroitic was a lingua franca you can not use language(s) spoken by contemporary groups living in the fomer Meroitic Empire, to identify any remnants of the Kushites presently living in the former environs of the Meroitic Empire.

How do you know Egyptian wasn't a lingua franca itself? After all, dynastic Egypt was a union of different polities and socio-complexes. Yet if this was to be the case, you're telling me that the language can be affiliated with contemporary groups, while Meroitic cannot?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Finally, I dispute Rilly research because 1) he claims that the Meroites spoke a language similar to Nubian (which according to the textual evidence was not spoken by any Kushites) a people who practiced an Egypto-Roman culture; and 2) he is attempting to read Meroitic using Proto-Nilo-Saharan, when he does not have any evidence of the various languages spoken by the Meroites. lacking evidence on the languages spoken by the ancient Meroites makes it impossible to reconstruct Proto-Meroitic.

This nonsense about "Nubians" and "Kushites" dichotomy has already been dealt with above.

Proto-languages are reconstructed from available lexical analysis all the time by linguists; any self-proclaimed linguist should be acquainted with this.

What evidence do you have about discrete "Meroitic" languages?

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fellati achawi
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dr. clyde
quote:
No can you tell us more about them
BASSA
quote : wiki
quote:
The Bassa (Dei, Bassa, Kru, Krahn, Grebo), also referred to as the Kwa-Speakers, can trace their historical origins to Mozambique in pre-dynastic times. Over time they migrated up through Ethiopia (Adbassa->Adbassania->Abyssinia) and established empires in conjunction with other ethnic groups in the area (Kush, Axum, Meroe). The 25th dynasty leaders of Khemit(Egypt) Ta Harko, Xa Bako and Xe Biko were Bassa. Their fall from power in Khemit would cause a retreat toward central Africa toward the Lake Chad region led by Mbem son of Soye, where the empires of Rifum, Kororafa and Adbassa were established in succession. Adbassa would last three centuries alongside the Bornu, Hausa, and Yoruba kingdoms. The Fall of Adbassa would split the massive Bassa group into many groups sending some to the Kasai Congo (Bassa-la-Mpasu), Togo (Bassa'r), Senegal, Sierra-Leone, Guinea (Bassa-ri), Nigeria (Bassa-Nge), Cameroon(Bassa) and Liberia (Dei, Bassa, Kru, Krahn, Grebo). The Liberian group was led by Hana-Mbak(Hanabo) son of Wenang. The Mano ethnic group of Liberia called the Bassa, Manidyu. Meaning the tribe that dries up rivers when they cross. This Bassa group would split into multiple separate ethnic groups in Liberia and Cote d'Ivoire (Bete, Kru) when they arrived.

based of www.republic.liberia



--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

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rasol
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quote:

Also, if English is not the language of North America, what is the native language of the vast majority of North Americans?

I think the semantical game here is fun.

So I will play along by noting your nonsequitur.

You ask: what is the native language of the vast majority of North Americans?

Two concepts -

1) Native and

2) Majority.

Are they the same?

Here is list of the *native* language families of North America.

Languages of North America
The most widely accepted classification of Native American languages N of Mexico (although some included are also spoken in Mexico and Central America) is that made by Edward Sapir in 1929. Sapir arranged the numerous linguistic groups in six major unrelated linguistic stocks, or families. There are Eskimo-Aleut, Algonquian-Wakashan, Nadene, Penutian, Hokan-Siouan, and Aztec-Tanoan.



^ So there is your answer.

Gosh. I wonder why the Germanic languages, such as English, are not included as Native North American languages?

Could it be because...

Native American languages, are the languages of the native peoples of the Western Hemisphere and their descendants. ?

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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
dr. clyde
quote:
No can you tell us more about them
BASSA
quote : wiki
quote:
The Bassa (Dei, Bassa, Kru, Krahn, Grebo), also referred to as the Kwa-Speakers, can trace their historical origins to Mozambique in pre-dynastic times. Over time they migrated up through Ethiopia (Adbassa->Adbassania->Abyssinia) and established empires in conjunction with other ethnic groups in the area (Kush, Axum, Meroe). The 25th dynasty leaders of Khemit(Egypt) Ta Harko, Xa Bako and Xe Biko were Bassa. Their fall from power in Khemit would cause a retreat toward central Africa toward the Lake Chad region led by Mbem son of Soye, where the empires of Rifum, Kororafa and Adbassa were established in succession. Adbassa would last three centuries alongside the Bornu, Hausa, and Yoruba kingdoms. The Fall of Adbassa would split the massive Bassa group into many groups sending some to the Kasai Congo (Bassa-la-Mpasu), Togo (Bassa'r), Senegal, Sierra-Leone, Guinea (Bassa-ri), Nigeria (Bassa-Nge), Cameroon(Bassa) and Liberia (Dei, Bassa, Kru, Krahn, Grebo). The Liberian group was led by Hana-Mbak(Hanabo) son of Wenang. The Mano ethnic group of Liberia called the Bassa, Manidyu. Meaning the tribe that dries up rivers when they cross. This Bassa group would split into multiple separate ethnic groups in Liberia and Cote d'Ivoire (Bete, Kru) when they arrived.

based of www.republic.liberia


I wouldn't trust this. I'd like to see their evidence...and not oral tradition either!
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Clyde Winters
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Mystery Solver
quote:


What evidence do you have about discrete "Meroitic" languages?


None exist. If you have this information please produce it.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Yonis
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

Most likely Afrasian, but their language hasn't been classified yet.

Based on what? No serious linguist has proposed Kushite language to be Afrasan. We've been through this.
Are you sure about this?
http://www.soas.ac.uk/lingfiles/workingpapers/rowan2.pdf

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver

quote:


What evidence do you have about discrete "Meroitic" languages?


None exist. If you have this information please produce it.
And may I ask why *I* need to substantiate a claim which *you* made, and was asked to substantiate?


quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

Most likely Afrasian, but their language hasn't been classified yet.

Based on what? No serious linguist has proposed Kushite language to be Afrasan. We've been through this.
Are you sure about this?
http://www.soas.ac.uk/lingfiles/workingpapers/rowan2.pdf

Yes, I am sure about no serious linguist placing Meroitic in the Afrasan family, just as no serious linguist would place it in Indo-European [aka Tocharian]. So, what of it?
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Yonis
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So the above paper is un-serious??
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
So the above paper is un-serious??

What is substantial about it? Presumably the tenuous argument built solely around the idea of 'consonant compatability restrictions'? Elaborate on why this is substantial.
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Nice Vidadavida *sigh*
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So Clyde are you saying there is a connection between Elamites and Kushites?

If so it is interesting that they are both the first sons of Shem and Ham in the bible.

But is this what this thread is about?

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Yonis
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
So the above paper is un-serious??

What is substantial about it? Presumably the tenuous argument built solely around the idea of 'consonant compatability restrictions'? Elaborate on why this is substantial.
Well for starter it offers the possibility that this language might have been afrasian rather than nilo-saharan. Secondly the language is still undiciphered therefore no one can say for sure that it wasn't afrasian or that it was nilo-saharan. it could also be niger-kordofian, it's all possible as for now.
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Red, White, and Blue + Christian
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The non African languages used widely in Africa are Enlish, French, and Portuese with little Afrikaans (Dutch) and Italian.

Arabic is African from the AfroAsiatic language family. Hagar was the mother of Ishmael. She was Egyptian and Arabic is close to Middle Egyptian.
The script is similar in appearance to hieratic.

The Elamites are related to the Dravidians. What language is Proto-Sahran? The Proto-Sarahans included more than one language family.

The Linguistics of the Elamites
http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/elam.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages

McAlpin (1975) identified several similarities between Elamite and Dravidian. According to McAlpin, 20% of Dravidian and Elamite vocabulary are cognates; a further 12% are probable cognates. Elamite and Dravidian possess similar second-person pronouns and parallel case endings. They have identical derivatives, abstract nouns, and the same verb stem+tense marker+personal ending structure. Both have two positive tenses, a "past" and a "non-past".

The Elamo-Dravidian Hypothesis is based on several other pieces of evidence. It appears that agriculture developed in the Near East and later spread to the Indus Valley region, suggesting that Elamo-Dravidian agriculturalists may have brought farming from the Near East to the Indus Valley. Later evidence of extensive trade between Elam and the Indus Valley Civilization suggests ongoing links between the two regions. Proponents of the hypothesis noted similarities between the early Harappan script, which has not been definitively deciphered, and early Elamite script. The disjunct distribution of living Dravidian languages, concentrated mostly in southern India but with isolated pockets in Pakistan and northeast India, suggests a wider past distribution of the Dravidian languages, and that the Indo-European languages of modern India and Pakistan were later arrivals in the Indo-Gangetic plain, leaving isolated islands of the older Dravidian languages in the surrounding mountains. A variety of Dravidian loan words (i.e., phalam- ripe fruit, mulcham- mouth, khala- threshing floor) in Vedic Sanskrit suggests that the two languages existed for a time in proximity. Retroflex consonants, which exist in Vedic Sanskrit and Dravidian but do not exist in Iranian or European languages could suggest a Dravidian substratum or adstratum in Vedic Sanskrit.

Some who claim to have deciphered the Harappan script, including Asko Parpola and Walter A. Fairservis Jr., suggest that the Harappans spoke a Dravidian language, while others, for instance S. R. Rao, suggest that the Harappan script represents an Indo-European language, similar to Sanskrit.


[edit] Criticism
Georgiy Starostin has criticized the proposed grammatical correspondences between Elamite and Dravidian as unconvincing, and performs a mass lexical comparison of Elamite to the Nostratic macrofamily (which includes Dravidian) as well as Afroasiatic and Sino-Caucasian, concluding that Elamite is related to (but not a member of) Afroasiatic and Nostratic, with Sino-Caucasian being more distant from the other three. [1]

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

Well for starter, it offers the possibility that this language might have been afrasian rather than nilo-saharan.

How so? Specifics.


quote:
Yonis:

secondly the language is still undiciphered therefore no one can say for sure that it wasn't afrasian or that it was nilo-saharan.

Prepondence of linguistic evidence, bio-anthropological and genetic evidence suggests it belonged to the same language family spoken by majority of the contemporary groups living in and around the very region where the complex used to be situated, and these primarily belong to the North eastern Sudanic languages. We've been through this.

quote:
Yonis:

it could also be niger-kordofian, it's all possible as for now.

I'm all ears. Please layout the specifics of the case for this all-out possibility, with seemingly no end in sight.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Nice Vidadavida *sigh*:
So Clyde are you saying there is a connection between Elamites and Kushites?

If so it is interesting that they are both the first sons of Shem and Ham in the bible.

But is this what this thread is about?

Read above ^^^.This thread is about the people identified as Kushites in Asia.
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Clyde Winters
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Yonis
quote:

Well for starter it offers the possibility that this language might have been afrasian rather than nilo-saharan. Secondly the language is still undiciphered therefore no one can say for sure that it wasn't afrasian or that it was nilo-saharan. it could also be niger-kordofian, it's all possible as for now.



This is not true Meroitic has been deciphered. I deciphered Meroitic over 20 years ago.


Below are papers that explains my decipherment.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/kush1.htm

http://geocities.com/olmec982000/meroitic.pdf

Below is a paper that discuss the origin of writing in Africa.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/mero.htm

Below are my on-line papers relating to Meroitic

C.A. Winters.(2004). Meroitic evidence for a Blymmy Empire Dodekochones. Retieved: 09/18/04 at http://arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/Kalabsha.htm

__________.(2005). Meroitic Religion. Retrieved 10/02/05 at:
http://arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/meroitic-religion.htm

__________.(2005).Natakamani and Amanitore in the Meroitic Sudan
Retrieved 12/013/05:
http://arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/natakamani-and-amanitore.htm


Below are my published papers:


Winters, A.A. 1984. "A note on Tokharian and
Meroitic".Meroitic Newsletter, no. 23: 18-21.

____________.1988. "The Dravidian and Manding substratum in Tokharian". Central Asiatic Journal, 32 (1-2): 131-141.

------------.1989. "Chiekh Anta Diop at le Dechiffrement de l'ecriture Meroitique", Revue Martiniguaise de Sciences Humaines et de Litterature, no.8: 141-153.

Winters, A.A. 1984. "A note on Tokharian and Meroitic".Meroitic Newsletter, no. 23: 18-21.

____________.1988. "The Dravidian and Manding substratum in Tokharian". Central Asiatic Journal, 32 (1-2): 131-141.

Winters, C.A.(1998). Meroitic funerary text. Part 1, Inscription Journal of Ancient Egypt, 1 (1), 29-34.

Winters, C.A.(1998b). Meroitic funerary text. Part 2, Inscription Journal of Ancient Egypt, 1 (2), 41-55.

Winters,C.A. (1999). Inscriptions of Tanydamani, Nubica et Ethiopica, IV/V, 355-388.


.

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Clyde Winters
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The Indus Valley writing is a member of the Dravidian group. I deciphered this writing over 30 years ago.

Below are a few of my articles on this writing system.

Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "The Indus Valley Writing is Proto- Dravidian",Journal of Tamil Studies , no 25 (June 1984a), pp.50-64

Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Further Notes on Japanese and Tamil" ,International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 13, no2 (June 1984c) pages 347-353.

Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Inspiration of the Harappan Talismanic Seals", Tamil Civilization 2, no1 (March 1984d), pages 1-8.

Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Harappan Writing of the Copper Tablets", Journal of Indian History LXll, nos.1-3 (1984), pages 1-5.

Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians ,Manding and Sumerians", Tamil Civilization 3, no1 (March ,1985a) ,pages 1-9.

Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC", India Past and Present 2, no1 ( 1985b), pages 13-19.

Winters,Clyde Ahmad Winters ,"The Dravidian Origin of the Mountain and Water Toponyms in central Asia", Journal of Central Asia 9, no2 (1986d), pages 144-148.

Winters,Clyde Ahmad,"Tamil,Sumerian and Manding and the Genetic Model",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,18,(1989) no l.

Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Review of Dr. Asko Parpolas' "The Coming of the Aryans". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18, no2 (1989) , pages 98-127.

Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Dravido Harappan Colonization of Central Asia", Central Asiatic Journal 34, no1-2 (1990), pages 120-144.

________.(1996). Linguistic Continuity and African and Dravidian languages, International Journal of
Dravidian Linguistics, 23 (2), 34-52.


_________.(1994c). Ancient Dravidian: And introductory grammar of Harappan with
Vocabularies , Journal Tamil Studies, No.41, 1-21.

_________.(1995a). Ancient Dravidian:The Harappan signs, Journal Tamil Studies,
No.42, 1-23.

Below is my dictionary on the Harappan writing:

__________.(1995b). Ancient Dravidian: Harappan Grammar/Dictionary, Journal Tamil Studies, No.43-44, 59-130.
Harappan Grammar and Dictionary

quote:
Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
The non African languages used widely in Africa are Enlish, French, and Portuese with little Afrikaans (Dutch) and Italian.

Arabic is African from the AfroAsiatic language family. Hagar was the mother of Ishmael. She was Egyptian and Arabic is close to Middle Egyptian.
The script is similar in appearance to hieratic.

The Elamites are related to the Dravidians. What language is Proto-Sahran? The Proto-Sarahans included more than one language family.

The Linguistics of the Elamites
http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/elam.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages

McAlpin (1975) identified several similarities between Elamite and Dravidian. According to McAlpin, 20% of Dravidian and Elamite vocabulary are cognates; a further 12% are probable cognates. Elamite and Dravidian possess similar second-person pronouns and parallel case endings. They have identical derivatives, abstract nouns, and the same verb stem+tense marker+personal ending structure. Both have two positive tenses, a "past" and a "non-past".

The Elamo-Dravidian Hypothesis is based on several other pieces of evidence. It appears that agriculture developed in the Near East and later spread to the Indus Valley region, suggesting that Elamo-Dravidian agriculturalists may have brought farming from the Near East to the Indus Valley. Later evidence of extensive trade between Elam and the Indus Valley Civilization suggests ongoing links between the two regions. Proponents of the hypothesis noted similarities between the early Harappan script, which has not been definitively deciphered, and early Elamite script. The disjunct distribution of living Dravidian languages, concentrated mostly in southern India but with isolated pockets in Pakistan and northeast India, suggests a wider past distribution of the Dravidian languages, and that the Indo-European languages of modern India and Pakistan were later arrivals in the Indo-Gangetic plain, leaving isolated islands of the older Dravidian languages in the surrounding mountains. A variety of Dravidian loan words (i.e., phalam- ripe fruit, mulcham- mouth, khala- threshing floor) in Vedic Sanskrit suggests that the two languages existed for a time in proximity. Retroflex consonants, which exist in Vedic Sanskrit and Dravidian but do not exist in Iranian or European languages could suggest a Dravidian substratum or adstratum in Vedic Sanskrit.

Some who claim to have deciphered the Harappan script, including Asko Parpola and Walter A. Fairservis Jr., suggest that the Harappans spoke a Dravidian language, while others, for instance S. R. Rao, suggest that the Harappan script represents an Indo-European language, similar to Sanskrit.


[edit] Criticism
Georgiy Starostin has criticized the proposed grammatical correspondences between Elamite and Dravidian as unconvincing, and performs a mass lexical comparison of Elamite to the Nostratic macrofamily (which includes Dravidian) as well as Afroasiatic and Sino-Caucasian, concluding that Elamite is related to (but not a member of) Afroasiatic and Nostratic, with Sino-Caucasian being more distant from the other three. [1]


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Yonis
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

Well for starter, it offers the possibility that this language might have been afrasian rather than nilo-saharan.

How so? Specifics.


quote:
Yonis:

secondly the language is still undiciphered therefore no one can say for sure that it wasn't afrasian or that it was nilo-saharan.

Prepondence of linguistic evidence, bio-anthropological and genetic evidence suggests it belonged to the same language family spoken by majority of the contemporary groups living in and around the very region where the complex used to be situated, and these primarily belong to the North eastern Sudanic languages. We've been through this.

quote:
Yonis:

it could also be niger-kordofian, it's all possible as for now.

I'm all ears. Please layout the specifics of the case for this all-out possibility, with seemingly no end in sight.

You can find answers for your questions above by reading the paper.
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:

You can find answers for your questions above by reading the paper.

I have read the said paper, not finding anything either decisive or substantial. Perhaps, you can enlighten us on how it is otherwise.
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Clyde Winters
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I would classify Meroitic as Niger-Congo langauge.


The great savant Cheikh Anta Diop (1974,1981) was convinced that many West African groups had formerly lived in the Egypto-Nubian region before they migrated to West Africa(Diop,1974). He supported this hypothesis with a discussion of the cognation between the names for gods in Egypt-Nubia and West Africa (Diop,1974), Egypto-Nubian and West African ethnomyns and toponyms common to both regions (Diop,1981) and West African and Egyptian languages.

There are many relationships between Meroitic and other African languages. For example, In Oromo/Galla, the term for queen is 'gifti'; and both 'naaga-ta" in Somali and Wolof 'jigen' mean woman. These terms appear to be related to Kdi > gti/e.

Yet even though we find cognition between some Cushitic and Nubian we can not use these languages to completely decipher Meroitic as proven by many past researchers. The Tocharian language on the otherhand, does allow us to read Meroitic and show its relationship with other African languages.

A comparison of Meroitic to African langauges indicate that Meroitic is closely related to langauges spoken in West Africa. Like Meroitic, the pronoun is often a suffix in other African languages. This suffix of the third person singular is usually n-, in other African languages. For example:

  • Bambara: no p r i 'his house'
    Kpelle: nyin 'his tooth'
    Akan: ni dan 'his house'

The Meroitic a- third person singular affix is also found in other African languages. For example:

  • Swahili: (1) a-ta kwenda 'he's going to go'
    (2) a-li-kwenda 'he is here'
    Manding: (1) ya zo 'he has come'
    (2) ya shirya mana 'he prepared (it) for us'.

The use of -i particle to form nouns in Meroitic correspond to the use of the -it and -ayy suffixes to form nouns in Wolof. The Wolof abstract noun formative suffix is -it, -itt, e.g., dog 'to cut', dogit 'sharpness'.

In Wolof abstract nouns are also formed by the addition of the suffix -ayy, and in Dyolo -ay, e.g., baax 'good', baaxaay 'goodness'.

Prefixes are rarely used in Meroitic. The most common prefixes include the prefix of reinforcement -p, the intensive prefix -a and the imperfect prefix -b. The p-, can be either the prefix of reinforcement e.g., ŝ 'patron', p-ŝ 'the patron' ; or the imperfect prefix e.g.,ŝiń'satisfaction', p-ŝiń "continuous satisfaction'.

The Meroitic p- affix, means ‘the’. This Meroitic grammatical element corresponds to the Egyptian demonstrative pi 'the'.

In Meroitic, the –o element is used to change a noun into an adjective. The Meroitic –o suffix, agrees with the use affix –u, joined to a vowel, in other African languages to form adjectives. In Swahili, many adjectives are formed by the k- consonant plus the vowel -u : Ku. For example:


  • (1) imba 'sing' ; zuri 'fine'
    Kuimba kuzuri 'Fine singing'
    (2) -bivu 'ripe' Kuiva 'to ripen'
    (3) -bovu 'rotten' Kuoza 'to rot'.

In Meroitic the plural case was made by the suffix -b, or reduplication. Reduplication was also used as a plural effect in Meroitic, e.g., d'donations',d-d 'considerable donations'. Reduplication is also used in other African languages to express the idea of abundance and diversity. For example, Swahili: Chungu kikavunjika vipande vipnade ."The cooking pot broke into pieces".

The Meroitic use of the -b suffix to make the plural number, corresponds to the use of the -ba- affix in African languages. In the Bantu languages the plural is formed by the ba- affix. In the Manding group of languages we see use of the -ba suffix. In Manding, the -ba affix is joined to nouns to denote the idea of physical or moral greatness. For example:

  • (1) na-folo 'good, rich'
    na-folo-ba 'great fortune'
    (2) so-kalo 'piece'
    so-kalo-ba 'considerable quarter of a village'.

In the Meroitic inscriptions there is constant mention of the khi 'body, spirit', the kha 'the abstract personality', the kho 'a shinning or translucent spirit soul'; and the Ba 'soul'. In many African languages the term Ba, is used to denote the terms 'soul or to be'. For example:


  • Egyptian: Ba
    Mbachi : Ba
    Coptic : Bai
    Bambara : Be
    Fang : Be.


The kha, existed within and without the human body. It would remain with the body until its flesh decayed, then it would either leave the tomb or hunt it. The Meroitic idea of Kha, as a spirit corresponds to Ka, in many African languages. For example:

  • Egyptian : Ka
    Manding : Ka
    Banda : Ka.

The linguistic evidence makes it clear that some of the Meroites may have spoken languages that belonged to the Niger-Congo-Mande family of languages. This is supported by the linguistic evidence of shared grammatical forms and lexical items between Meroitic and Niger-Congo-Mande discussed above.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Mystery Solver
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^You may repeat questionable claims, but they don't get less tenuous. What are the cognate terms between Meroitic and Tocharian?
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Mystery Solver
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How can you use Tocharian to decipher Meroitic when the above isn't met, and they use completely different scripts, developed at completely different timeframes, with the Meroitic script apparently being much older?

Ps: Confronting two weak approaches:

One proclaiming to use common language trait of consonant restriction and nothing much else, while the other proclaims to use [a distinct and younger script] to reach a logical conclusion about the language foundation of Meroitic.

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Yonis
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quote:
Clyde winters:
This is not true Meroitic has been deciphered. I deciphered Meroitic over 20 years ago.

Sorry my bad, i meant to say proffesional decipherment.
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rasol
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^ Dr Winters is certainly a professional, whether other professionals agree with him or not.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The great savant Cheikh Anta Diop (1974,1981) was convinced that many West African groups had formerly lived in the Egypto-Nubian region before they migrated to West Africa(Diop,1974).

Yes, and some truth there as there is some E3b1 in Senegal, although Diop may have envisioned a kind of mass exodus from Km.t to West Africa for which evidence is scanty at best.


But Diop did not think the Merotic script came from India as you do.

I find it fascinating, from a tactical point of view, how you have learned to get off your theory of demic diffusion of Merotic script from India, by masquerading it as Afrocentrism.

I am [mildly] dissappointed that not one of your 'afrocentric' fan base has managed to put two and two together, and realise what you are actually saying.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
^You may repeat questionable claims, but they don't get less tenuous. What are the cognate terms between Meroitic and Tocharian?

The following words correspond to Tokharian words:
  • Meroitic Tokharian

    0 kadke / ktke # queen 0 katak # master of the house

    There are several recognized Meroitic words (Hintze 1979).

    0 ato # water 0 ap #

    0 s # 'race' 0 sah # 'man'

    0 wide # youth 0 wir #

    0 qor # monarch 0 oroce # 'the grand king'

    0 parite # agent 0 parwe # 'first'

    0 apote # 'envoy' 0 ap # 'father'
It is obvious that apote and parite do not relate to Tokharian because these are Egyptian loan words adopted by the Meroites. But around 57% of these terms show agreement. This made it highly probable that Meroitic and Tokharian were cognate languages.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
How can you use Tocharian to decipher Meroitic when the above isn't met, and they use completely different scripts, developed at completely different timeframes, with the Meroitic script apparently being much older?

Ps: Confronting two weak approaches:

One proclaiming to use common language trait of consonant restriction and nothing much else, while the other proclaims to use [a distinct and younger script] to reach a logical conclusion about the language foundation of Meroitic.

The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.

Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who lived in the Meroitic empire, failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites.

Flavius Philostratus, the writer of the Vita Apollonii, Vol. 1,cliamed that the Gymnosophists of Meroe originally came from India (see F.C. Conybeare, Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (p.45),1950). Given the fact that the Kushana had formerly ruled India around the time that the Meroitic writing was introduced to the Kushite civilization, lead to the hypothesis that the ancestors of the Gymnosophist may have been Kushana philosophers.

The historical evidence of the Kushana having ruled India made the Classical references to Indians in Meroe, an important source for the construction of alternative theories about the possible location of the cognate language of Meroitic.

There is external evidence, which supports my theory. A theory explains observed phenomena and has predictive power. I have theorized that due to the claims of the Classical writers that some of the Meroites came from India (F.C Conybeare (Trans.), Philostratus: The life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol.2, (1950) pg.271). According to the Life of Apollonius, the Indian Meroites were formerly led by a King Ganges, who had "repulsed the Scythians who invaded this land [India from] across the Caucasus" (Conybeare, Vol.1, Pg.273). Pilostratus also made it clear that the Indians of Meroe came to this country after their king was killed.

The presence of this tradition of an Indian King of the Indian-Meroites conquering the Scythians predicts that the Indian literature should record this historical episode. This prediction is supported by a Jaina text called the Kalakeharya-Kathanaka, which reports that when the Scythians invaded Malwa, the King of Malwa, called Vikramaditya defeated the Scythians (H. Kulke & D. Rothermund, History of India (London, Routledge: 1990, pg.73). This king Vikramaditya may be the Ganges mentioned in the Life of Apollonius.Confirmation of the Ganges story, supports the Classical literary evidence that their were Indianized-Meroites that could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites.

Moreover, there were other Indians in North Africa in addition to Kush/Meroe. For example, at Quseir al-Qadim there was a large Indian speaking community (see: R. Salomon, "Epigraphic remains of Indian traders in Egypt", Journal of the American oriental Society, (1991) pp.731-736; and R. Salomon, Addenda, Journal of the American Oriental Society, (1993) pg.593). These Indians were in Egypt writing messages in their own language, around the time we see a switch from Egyptian hieroglyphics to the Meroitic writing system.

The evidence that the Classical references to an Indian-Meroite King who conquered the Scythians is supported by the Indian literature, provides external corroboration of the tradition that some of the Meroites were of Indian origin. The presence of Indians traders and settlers in Meroe (and Egypt), makes it almost impossible to deny the possibility that Indians, familiar with the Tokharian trade language did not introduce this writing to the Meroites who needed a neutral language to unify the diverse ethnic groups who made up the Meroite state. In relation to the history of linguistic change and bilingualism, it is a mistake to believe that linguistic transfer had to take place for the Meroites to have used Tokharian, when it did not take place when they wrote in Egyptian hieroglyphics.

In summary the classical literature makes it clear that there was a connection between the Gymnosophists (of Meroe) and the Indians. The fact that historical events mentioned in the classical sources are found in the Indian literature confirm the view that there were Indian-Meroites who could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites.

The fact that the Nubians who were part of the "Meroitic state", used hieroglyphics and Coptic to write their language without abandoning their native language support the view that they could have also used Tokharian to write Meroitic. And that eventhough they wrote Meroitic inscriptions in Tokharian, they would not have had to abandon Nubian.

The evidence presented above provides internal and external validity for my theory based upon the sources I have cited previously. The sources I have used are impartial, to disconfirm my hypothesis someone needs to show that my propositions are not fully informed [i.e., there were no Indians North Africa and Kush when the Classical writers maintained they were] and present rival explanations based on the evidence.
The fact that the claims made by the Classical writers is supported by the Indians themselves if further strong confirmation of the Kushana hypothesis.

The hypothesis based on the classical literature, was enough to support the original Kushana Hypothesis. The predicting power of the original theory, matches the observed natural phenomena which was confirmed elsewhere by cognate place names, ethononyms, lexical items and grammatical features, indicate that my theory has not be falsified.

The ability to reliably predict a linguistic relationship between Kushana and Meroitic, was further confirmation of the Kushana Hypothesis, because the linguistic connections were deducible from prediction.

I controlled the Kushana Hypothesis by comparing the statements of the classical writers, with historical, linguistic anthropological and toponymic evidence found not only in Africa, but also India and Central Asia [where the people also used Tokharian as a trade language to unify the various people in Central Asia]. I constructed five testable hypotheses in support of the Kushana theory, and it seems only fair that these five variables must be disconfirmed, to falsify the Kushana Hypothesis. Failure to disconfirm this theorem, implies validity of my prediction.

My confirmation of the above five variables: the presence of Kushites in Africa and Asia; the presence of Kushana sages in India who may have migrated to Meroe; cognate lexical items; cognate verbs and cognate grammatical features indicates systematic controlled, critical and empirical investigation of the question of Kushana representing the Meroitic cognate language.

.

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Djehuti
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[Embarrassed] Me thinks folks here put too much effort in trying to argue in Clyde's thread (taking him too seriously), one in which the title is "Asian Kushites". [Roll Eyes]
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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[qb] ^ Dr Winters is certainly a
I find it fascinating, from a tactical point of view, how you have learned to get off your theory of demic diffusion of Merotic script from India, by masquerading it as Afrocentrism.

I am [mildly] dissappointed that not one of your 'afrocentric' fan base has managed to put two and two together, and realise what you are actually saying.

--->
Winters writes:
quote:
1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic

3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.

^ Hence according to Winters Meoitic is Indian and not African.

This is the point I believe where Lion(?)lord panics and begins spelling African with a "k", which is supposed to solve this little problem. [Wink]

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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:] ^ Dr Winters is certainly a
I find it fascinating, from a tactical point of view, how you have learned to get off your theory of demic diffusion of Merotic script from India, by masquerading it as Afrocentrism.

I am [mildly] dissappointed that not one of your 'afrocentric' fan base has managed to put two and two together, and realise what you are actually saying.

--->
Winters writes:
quote:
1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic

3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.

^ Hence according to Winters Meroitic is Indian and not African.

This is the point I believe where Lion(?)lord panics and begins spelling African with a "k", which is supposed to solve this little 'afrocentric' problem. [Wink]
quote:
The sources I have used are impartial, to disconfirm my hypothesis someone needs to show that my propositions are not fully informed
The issue is less that they are not fully informed and more that they are wildly assumptive.

quote:
[i.e., there were no Indians North Africa
Wildly assumptive arguments are promoted based on burden of proof fallacy.

Of course, we do not have to show that there were -no- Indians anywhere in Nothern Africa in order to 'disconfirm' your 'theory'.

Rather the burden is entirely on you to prove that Indians invented Meriotic script.

You have no proof of this, and your methods of claiming linguistic affinity between Indian and African scripts is sussed due to your tendancy to make bizarre affinity claims such as Yoruba-Japanese, and Mandingo-Olmec.

IE - anything goes.

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alTakruri
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Ah, but whether or not they all fit Dr. Winters'
definition, there were Asian Kushites/Aithiopians.
The records or the Ancients are full of them.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[Embarrassed] Me thinks folks here put too much effort in trying to argue in Clyde's thread (taking him too seriously), one in which the title is "Asian Kushites". [Roll Eyes]


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Djehuti
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^ Yes, but you know I was referring to Winter's definition-- Mande descended Asians! LOL [Big Grin]
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

^You may repeat questionable claims, but they don't get less tenuous. What are the cognate terms between Meroitic and Tocharian?

The following words correspond to Tokharian words:

  • Meroitic Tokharian

    0 kadke / ktke # queen 0 katak # master of the house

    There are several recognized Meroitic words (Hintze 1979).

    0 ato # water 0 ap #

    0 s # 'race' 0 sah # 'man'

    0 wide # youth 0 wir #

    0 qor # monarch 0 oroce # 'the grand king'

    0 parite # agent 0 parwe # 'first'

    0 apote # 'envoy' 0 ap # 'father'
It is obvious that apote and parite do not relate to Tokharian because these are Egyptian loan words adopted by the Meroites. But around 57% of these terms show agreement. This made it highly probable that Meroitic and Tokharian were cognate languages.
Are these part of the words that have already been established as 'translated' Meroitic words before your so-called deciphering?...because off that list, I only see one word that is standard here, which happens to be that of 'water'.

Secondly, 'too' specific terms like 'monarch' or 'queen' in themselves are next to useless for comparative analysis as Rilly correctly notes, barring specific etymology of their roots tracing back to a specified 'single' cultural origin and subsequent diffusion(s) thereafter, and are also prone to direct diffusion from one culture to another.


Thirdly, it is easily noticeable that the majority of the words you selected do not even have correspondence, two of which you at least had the decency to acknowledge [the said 'apote' [apota?] & 'parite' [parita?]].


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

How can you use Tocharian to decipher Meroitic when the above isn't met, and they use completely different scripts, developed at completely different timeframes, with the Meroitic script apparently being much older?

Ps: Confronting two weak approaches:

One proclaiming to use common language trait of consonant restriction and nothing much else, while the other proclaims to use [a distinct and younger script] to reach a logical conclusion about the language foundation of Meroitic.

The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.

Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who lived in the Meroitic empire, failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites....

If you weren't busy regurgitating posts that have been dealt with time and again, akin to a pre-programmed robot repeating the same line on and on no matter what the occasion is, you'd be addressing the specifics of the questions you cited, rather than going off on a tangent.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

^You may repeat questionable claims, but they don't get less tenuous. What are the cognate terms between Meroitic and Tocharian?

The following words correspond to Tokharian words:

  • Meroitic Tokharian

    0 kadke / ktke # queen 0 katak # master of the house

    There are several recognized Meroitic words (Hintze 1979).

    0 ato # water 0 ap #

    0 s # 'race' 0 sah # 'man'

    0 wide # youth 0 wir #

    0 qor # monarch 0 oroce # 'the grand king'

    0 parite # agent 0 parwe # 'first'

    0 apote # 'envoy' 0 ap # 'father'
It is obvious that apote and parite do not relate to Tokharian because these are Egyptian loan words adopted by the Meroites. But around 57% of these terms show agreement. This made it highly probable that Meroitic and Tokharian were cognate languages.
Are these part of the words that have already been established as 'translated' Meroitic words before your so-called deciphering?...because off that list, I only see one word that is standard here, which happens to be that of 'water'.

Secondly, 'too' specific terms like 'monarch' or 'queen' in themselves are next to useless for comparative analysis as Rilly correctly notes, barring specific etymology of their roots tracing back to a specified 'single' cultural origin and subsequent diffusion(s) thereafter, and are also prone to direct diffusion from one culture to another.


Thirdly, it is easily noticeable that the majority of the words you selected do not even have correspondence, two of which you at least had the decency to acknowledge [the said 'apote' [apota?] & 'parite' [parita?]].


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

How can you use Tocharian to decipher Meroitic when the above isn't met, and they use completely different scripts, developed at completely different timeframes, with the Meroitic script apparently being much older?

Ps: Confronting two weak approaches:

One proclaiming to use common language trait of consonant restriction and nothing much else, while the other proclaims to use [a distinct and younger script] to reach a logical conclusion about the language foundation of Meroitic.

The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.

Before I began work on Meroitic, other researchers had already falsified the African theory for Meroitic's cognate language. The fact that not even Nubian, a language spoken by a people who lived in the Meroitic empire, failed to be the cognate language of Meroitic made it clear that we must look elsewhere for the cognate language spoken by the Meroites....

If you weren't busy regurgitating posts that have been dealt with time and again, akin to a pre-programmed robot repeating the same line on and on no matter what the occasion is, you'd be addressing the specifics of the questions you cited, rather than going off on a tangent.

This is your opinion. You have proven nothing.

You're just jealous of my accomplishments. Supercar/Mystery Solver you attempt to hold court on this forum, yet you are afraid to get a terminal degree and publish papers on your theories. Anythime anyone argues with you you attack them like a mindless pitbull.

You are jealous of me because I am not afraid to publish my work and compete with Europeans. You are jealous of me because I dare to make an imprint on the academic world confirming Afrocentric theories, while you mimic European scholars, safe in the knowledge you can't be wrong because what you write is sanctioned by the members of the status quo. And yet every thread someone shows the lack of knowledge you have about many subjects, including this one.

Your imagined association with European scholars have given you delusional visions of greatness. You aren't great. You never provide any unique contributions to any discussion because you stay solidly behind your European masters. This is not being a bold researcher. It is the sign of a coward a weak child--the classic novice--easy to anger when confronted by evidence that proves you're wrong, eventhough you have echoed whatever your masters write.

You claim to be an expert on genetics, and yet you publish nothing. I on the otherhand have published articles on genetics. Articles published in peer reviwed journals. Journals you dare not send your work too, because it will only repeat what you read and fail to show any originality.

I can read Meroitic and you can too, using my method. Evidence of my decipherment of Meroitic is my ability to read any inscription.

Since you believe Rilley is correct and I am wrong, why don't you decipher some of the Meroitic inscriptions using his approach for the members of Egypt Search.

You can chose any inscription you like. You decipher it using Riley's method, and I will use my method let's see whoes decipherment is most coherent.

You coward. Get up out your knees and publish if you're so smart.


.

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

This is your opinion. You have proven nothing.

Not sure what you mean by that, when specifics on a point-by-point basis addressing your post, with clear messages, have been relayed to you.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

I can read Meroitic and you can too, using my method.

That's where you couldn't be more wrong. I cannot read Meroitic using your method, because it has serious flaws, stemming from an attempt to use distinct scripts, developed and used in distinct cultural complexes at significant time differences, not to mention the said complexes being geographically separated considerably.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

Evidence of my decipherment of Meroitic is my ability to read any inscription.

Tenuous at best.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Since you believe Rilley is correct and I am wrong, why don't you decipher some of the Meroitic inscriptions using his approach for the members of Egypt Search.

He certainly has made some headway, although still not enough for all-out deciphering of the script, using reasonably methodological & standard linguistic approaches to reconstruction. However, to see just how much further he has gone since the last piece of his that I've read, I'd have to familiarize myself with his latest publication, as referenced by one poster here recently.
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


You're just jealous of my accomplishments. Supercar/Mystery Solver you attempt to hold court on this forum, yet you are afraid to get a terminal degree and publish papers on your theories.

Yeah, yeah, I know; this is the point now, where the discussion turns into your emotional outpouring. So predictable, yet so laughable considering that you've yet to know jack about whom you are communicating with.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

Anythime anyone argues with you you attack them like a mindless pitbull.

I rest the case just made.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

You are jealous of me because I am not afraid to publish my work and compete with Europeans. You are jealous of me because I dare to make an imprint on the academic world confirming Afrocentric theories, while you mimic European scholars, safe in the knowledge you can't be wrong because what you write is sanctioned by the members of the status quo.

I commend anyone's effort who questions by way of reasoning, and hence not a sheep. If your method was sound, I'd acknowledge so. It's not personal, unless you make it so.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

And yet every thread someone shows the lack of knowledge you have about many subjects, including this one.

Let's please try to avoid hypotheticals, and stick with the reality at hand, shall we?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Your imagined association with European scholars have given you delusional visions of greatness. You aren't great.

I suppose this is why I notably attack reactionary Eurocentric ideological issues here, since long before you've joined the board. Quite observant of you.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

You never provide any unique contributions to any discussion because you stay solidly behind your European masters.

I guess all my unique contributions and takes from cited works over the years have been lost on you. I hope a lot of us here don't share this misfortune of lack of perceptiveness. In any case, what can I say?...life goes on.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

This is not being a bold researcher. It is the sign of a coward a weak child--the classic novice--easy to anger when confronted by evidence that proves you're wrong, eventhough you have echoed whatever your masters write.

Yeah, you only wish my critiques were unsound, and would just go away. Sorry to disappoint to that extent though.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

You claim to be an expert on genetics, and yet you publish nothing.

And you know all this, because you met me personally from where?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

I on the otherhand have published articles on genetics. Articles published in peer reviwed journals. Journals you dare not send your work too, because it will only repeat what you read and fail to show any originality.

Publishing what you know NOT, is not something I'd brag about. But hey, that's just me. [Wink]

quote:
Clyde Winters:

You coward. Get up out your knees and publish if you're so smart.

You bet, once you stop being a coward, and start noticing the glaring flaws in your methodology being pointed out to you by others, and actually use that as an opportunity to revise your approaches and turn them around for the better.

So much for all the emotional hype, you've actually not engage the pressing issues at hand. As a professor, you can do much better, and stay away from making things so personal; it helps not to do that.

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Clyde Winters
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Mystery Solver
quote:


Secondly, 'too' specific terms like 'monarch' or 'queen' in themselves are next to useless for comparative analysis as Rilly correctly notes, barring specific etymology of their roots tracing back to a specified 'single' cultural origin and subsequent diffusion(s) thereafter, and are also prone to direct diffusion from one culture to another.



This is a silly comment. First culture terms rarely agree unless there was contact between two different cultures. Secondly, diffusion implies contact.

If there was contact between the Meroites and Indians which is suggested by the Classical authors, and the documented presence of Indians in Egypt, support my proposition that the Kushana were instrumental in creating the Meroitic script.
These comments do nothing to falsify my work.


You talk about root words. The Kushana (Tocharian) and Meroitic words come from primary text in these languages. This implies that they are roots since we only have evidence of these languages from textual material. This makes Riley's contentions unfounded.

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

This is your opinion. You have proven nothing.

Not sure what you mean by that, when specifics on a point-by-point basis addressing your post, with clear messages, have been relayed to you.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

I can read Meroitic and you can too, using my method.

That's where you couldn't be more wrong. I cannot read Meroitic using your method, because it has serious flaws, stemming from an attempt to use distinct scripts, developed and used in distinct cultural complexes at significant time differences, not to mention the said complexes being geographically separated considerably.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

Evidence of my decipherment of Meroitic is my ability to read any inscription.

Tenuous at best.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Since you believe Rilley is correct and I am wrong, why don't you decipher some of the Meroitic inscriptions using his approach for the members of Egypt Search.

He certainly has made some headway, although still not enough for all-out deciphering of the script, using reasonably methodological & standard linguistic approaches to reconstruction. However, to see just how much further he has gone since the last piece of his that I've read, I'd have to familiarize myself with his latest publication, as referenced by one poster here recently.

-

I look forward to you getting his book and then proving that his methods are superior to mine. Once you do this we can proceed with the test of decipherments.

Until this is done please explain, in your own words, how Riley's reconstructions are linguistically sound when we have no evidence of the languages spoke in ancient Kush, except Meroitic.

Also list the root words Riley has found from ancient Kush that are the source of his reconstructions.

.

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Clyde Winters
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Supercar/Mystery Solver
quote:



quote:Clyde Winters:

You claim to be an expert on genetics, and yet you publish nothing.

And you know all this, because you met me personally from where?



I know you have not published anything because if you had you would show some originality in your interpretations of the material you post. Your post are usually just echoing what you read.

Over the years I have found that most authors have a signature style of discourse which is evident in their writings.

I have read tons of genetics articles. None of them show your style of writing and use of evidence. This proves to me, that you have contributed nothing to the field.

Moreover, given your need to always be right, makes it obvious that if you ever published an article on genetics or African studies you would want your fans to know it.

If I am wrong please cite some of your work. I am waiting.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I look forward to you getting his book and then proving that his methods are superior to mine.

Better yet, how about getting the book yourself, rather than wait for others to spoon feed you.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Once you do this we can proceed with the test of decipherments.

[Confused]


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Until this is done please explain, in your own words, how Riley's reconstructions are linguistically sound when we have no evidence of the languages spoke in ancient Kush, except Meroitic.

We've been through this before, but if you are suffering from increasing memory loss, then in simple terms...

* 'Proto-Meroitic' names are uncovered from Egyptic texts.


Archaeology of 'Kerma', as the founding complex for Meroe, relaying its socio-cultural progression is taken into consideration in the process.

*'Typological similarity between Egyptian texts and Meroitic' ones, is sought after.

*Various words are already known from earlier work, but it is the question of determining the meaning for the bulk of them. So, those whose meaning have been determined, provide something to start working with.

*Iconography on archaeological material is taken into consideration, because they are many a times accompanied by descriptive words. This along with aforementioned translated words, names of persons and gods are useful in extrapolating certain words of the cotexts, and confirming their meanings in other [textual] occasions.

* Comparative analysis is undertaken between Meriotic and various other language groups from different language families, and then zeroing in on the ones sporting closer relationships.

*Ones closely related languages have come to the fore, lexicostatistical method is applied for comparative purposes between the defunct language [Meroitic] and living ones [in this case, N. Eastern Sudanic family].

*Lexicostatic approach is to be supplimented by the classical comparative method:

It was necessary,

*first to find regular phonetic correspon­dences between North Eastern Sudanic languages,

*second to reconstruct the original phonology of Proto-North Eastern Sudanic,

*third to reconstruct, as much as possible, some Proto-North Eastern Sudanic words, and

*finally to compare these proto-forms with Meroitic words.
[courtesy C. Rilly]

^The resultant phonemes are compared, utilizing not only similar phonological structure, but also possible genetic correspondence, usually communicated in the same meaning of the words in question.

*Finally, close connections were found between some Meroitic words and their Proto­North Eastern Sudanic counterparts (see table below). Some regular phonetic correspondences are obvious. - Rilly

In spite of the scanty available data, the result is obvious : Meroitic is more than probably a member of the North Eastern Sudanic family.

^Slow process, requiring much patience, but doable with proper approach to standard linguistic procedures to unlocking 'defunct' but well documented languages.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Also list the root words Riley has found from ancient Kush that are the source of his reconstructions.

Can be read here, which has been brought to your attention repetitively: http://www.arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/rilly.htm
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Mystery Solver
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Now addressing Clyde's crude distraction that he calls a 'responsive' post...


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I know you have not published anything

Again you've met me, where?

quote:
Clyde Winters:

because if you had you would show some originality in your interpretations of the material you post.

Actually more of a reflection of your lack of perceptiveness, rather than an answer to how you know me.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Your post are usually just echoing what you read.

Which explains why most of the time I actually understand what is being cited, when you don't?! That my friend, is actually a comfortable place to be.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

I have read tons of genetics articles. None of them show your style of writing and use of evidence. This proves to me, that you have contributed nothing to the field.

Ever thought about quitting your daytime job, to become a nutty psychic hotline character? Hint: don't quit it.

quote:
Clyde Winters:

Moreover, given your need to always be right, makes it obvious that if you ever published an article on genetics or African studies you would want your fans to know it.

Back to question #1 that you were supposed to be answering in this unsubstantive long-winded post, but quite predictably went off on a tangent.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

If I am wrong please cite some of your work. I am waiting.

Owe you zip about my person, and if that makes you cry, then so be it.

However, I'd like to see you actually do your very best to go back on-topic, and address the glaring flaws pointed out about your approach. Your crude distractive antics are futile.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I look forward to you getting his book and then proving that his methods are superior to mine.

Better yet, how about getting the book yourself, rather than wait for others to spoon feed you.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Once you do this we can proceed with the test of decipherments.

[Confused]


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Until this is done please explain, in your own words, how Riley's reconstructions are linguistically sound when we have no evidence of the languages spoke in ancient Kush, except Meroitic.

We've been through this before, but if you are suffering from increasing memory loss, then in simple terms...

* 'Proto-Meroitic' names are uncovered from Egyptic texts.


Archaeology of 'Kerma', as the founding complex for Meroe, relaying its socio-cultural progression is taken into consideration in the process.

*'Typological similarity between Egyptian texts and Meroitic' ones, is sought after.

*Various words are already known from earlier work, but it is the question of determining the meaning for the bulk of them. So, those whose meaning have been determined, provide something to start working with.

*Iconography on archaeological material is taken into consideration, because they are many a times accompanied by descriptive words. This along with aforementioned translated words, names of persons and gods are useful in extrapolating certain words of the cotexts, and confirming their meanings in other [textual] occasions.

* Comparative analysis is undertaken between Meriotic and various other language groups from different language families, and then zeroing in on the ones sporting closer relationships.

*Ones closely related languages have come to the fore, lexicostatistical method is applied for comparative purposes between the defunct language [Meroitic] and living ones [in this case, N. Eastern Sudanic family].

*Lexicostatic approach is to be supplimented by the classical comparative method:

It was necessary,

*first to find regular phonetic correspon­dences between North Eastern Sudanic languages,

*second to reconstruct the original phonology of Proto-North Eastern Sudanic,

*third to reconstruct, as much as possible, some Proto-North Eastern Sudanic words, and

*finally to compare these proto-forms with Meroitic words.
[courtesy C. Rilly]

^The resultant phonemes are compared, utilizing not only similar phonological structure, but also possible genetic correspondence, usually communicated in the same meaning of the words in question.

*Finally, close connections were found between some Meroitic words and their Proto­North Eastern Sudanic counterparts (see table below). Some regular phonetic correspondences are obvious. - Rilly

In spite of the scanty available data, the result is obvious : Meroitic is more than probably a member of the North Eastern Sudanic family.

^Slow process, requiring much patience, but doable with proper approach to standard linguistic procedures to unlocking 'defunct' but well documented languages.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Also list the root words Rilly has found from ancient Kush that are the source of his reconstructions.

Can be read here, which has been brought to your attention repetitively: http://www.arkamani.org/arkamani-library/meroitic/rilly.htm

First of all you can not recover Proto-Meroitic terms from Egyptian text because a proto language is reconstructed by comparing terms from a target language or number of languages to determine the mother tongue. Anyone who makes a claim that they recovered proto-terms from any text is lieing.


None of Rilly's terms have been accepted by anyone studying Meroitic except for kdi. The rest he has made up himself.

The terms I compared have been accepted as possible Meroitic cognates. His terms are pure conjecture.

If these terms actually ever existed you should be able to identify the Meroitic or Egyptian text where they are found. Please cite the ancient source Rilly's terms came from that he used to produce his Proto-North Eastern Sudani lexicon.

In addition, please reproduce the Meroitic terms accepted by most researchers that Rilly used to compare with the Proto-North Eastern Sudani terms.


.

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Clyde Winters
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EGYPTIAN INFLUENCE ON MEROITIC

Whereas Rilly is working from conjecture, my decipherment allows me to accurately and effectively compare Meroitic and Egyptian terms. Below is a discussion of the Meroitic and Egyptian relationship.

The Kushites and Egyptians had a close relationship for millennia. As a result the Egyptians had a tremendous influence on the culture of the Kushites, especially in the area of religion .

As early as the 12th dynasty the Egyptians controlled Nubia. After 1674 BC, the Kerma rulers regained control of Nubia until the raise of the New Kingdom. Pharaohs of the New Kingdom ruled Egypt for 500 years.

Nubia gained independence after the decline of Egypt in 1085 B.C. During this period the Kushites developed a highly developed civilization at Napata and Meroe (880 B.C.-A. D. 350). Over time the Kushites became strong enough to conqueror Egypt and found the 25th Dynasty.

The long association of Egypt and Nubia suggest that the Egyptians may have influenced more than the culture of the Kushites. In this paper we will review the affinities between the Egyptian and Meroitic languages.

Ll. Griffith during his decipherment of Meroitic (M.) found many Egyptian (E.) terms . These terms were especially used in the political culture area e.g., E. p-sy-n-nsw 'son of king' >
M. pesto 'king's foothold/foundation of light' .

Now that we have more evidence about the Meroitic language we can now compare Egyptian and Meroitic to determine if there are any other similarities between these languages. Below are some Meroitic terms that illustrate the influence of Egyptian on Meroitic.
code:
Egyptian                           Meroitic 
m 'do not' ma not, no
nd 'homage' net 'bow in reverence'

r 'to, into' r id.
se 'son' s id.
s y 'satisfaction' se-ne 'to be satisfied'
ss 'writing, scribe' ssor 'scribe'
s w 'to protect' s 'to protect'
di 'give' d id.
t ' thou' t id.
t 'earth' te 'land'
k i 'high' kha 'great'
hc'w 'body' khe 'spirit, body'
rc 'likewise' r 'like'
bi 'good deed' bli 'right, order'
b 'soul' b, be id.
ssmt 'stewart' ssimte id.
p-mr-msc 'general, stategus' pelmos id.
p-sy-n-nsw 'son of the king' pesto
st "Isis' Wos id.
Wsir 'Osiris Sore id.
nfr 'good' na, n
ti 'here' t

Several aspects of Demotic grammar agree with Meroitic structure. This is especially true in relation to the formation of the adjective case and the use of pronouns.

The Meroitic funerary tablets are written in the third or second person. Meroitic words are usually formed by the addition of post-positions or suffixes. The Meroitic pronouns are suffixed to Meroitic words. They include, -te 'you, thou'; -t 'her, he'; ne 'his'; -to 'your'; and the -n and a third person singular suffixes. For example:

code:
         -n     s/he, it, her, his
i "go", i-n 'he goes'
de 'bequeathal', de-n 'his bequeathal'
qe 'make' , qe-n 'he makes'

In Demotic we see use of suffixial pronouns. For example:
code:
       
sdm 'hear'
sdmy 'I hear'
sdm .f 'he hear'
sdm hr-f 'he will hear'

In Meroitic the adjective is placed behind the noun. For example,

code:
        e       'complete'
ŝ on tene 'The king commence(s) the rebirth'.
ŝ on tene-e 'The king commence(s) the complete rebirth'.

Adjectives in Demotic are also placed behind the noun. For example:

code:
           rmt    hm    ' small man'
ŝy nfr ' good fate'
ssw sbk ' few days'

The -m suffix was used in Meroitic to denote the negative effect. The negative particle -m, is often joined to verbs along with the pronoun. For example:

mi-n 'injure him', mi-m-n 'injure him not'.

In Meroitic tablets the negative suffix rarely appears.

The Egyptian negative particle m, agrees with Meroitic. In Demotic the negative particle mn-, is prefixed, e.g.,
mn lh gm hw 'no fool finds profit'.

In the short review above of Egyptian and Meroitic cognates we can see the obvious influence of Egyptian, especially Demotic on Meroitic. This influence was shown not only in vocabulary but also grammatical features.

This linguistic material discussed above clearly suggest some Egyptian substrata influence on Meroitic. It indicates Egyptian influence on both the structure and vocabulary of Meroitic.

It is very interesting to note that much of the affinity between Meroitic and Egyptian is based on Demotic examples. This may be explained by the fact that Demotic was used by the Kushites during the 25th Dynasty, and forms the foundation for the Meroitic writing.


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Mystery Solver
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Almost forgot this one...

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Mystery Solver
quote:


Secondly, 'too' specific terms like 'monarch' or 'queen' in themselves are next to useless for comparative analysis as Rilly correctly notes, barring specific etymology of their roots tracing back to a specified 'single' cultural origin and subsequent diffusion(s) thereafter, and are also prone to direct diffusion from one culture to another.



This is a silly comment. First culture terms rarely agree unless there was contact between two different cultures.
What's silly is your inability to read what is being cited. What do you understand by 'too specific'? That makes it useless for comparative work, but in the event that you'd attempt to do so, at least, be prepared to demonstrate cognation, backed up with specific etymology of origin.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Secondly, diffusion implies contact.

LOL. What else did you assume was being implied?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

If there was contact between the Meroites and Indians which is suggested by the Classical authors, and the documented presence of Indians in Egypt, support my proposition that the Kushana were instrumental in creating the Meroitic script.

I don't know how you square this with the well known understanding that the scripts in question are distinct, used by discrete people considerably distant from one another and used at considerable time differences, with Meroitic being the far older one in use.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

These comments do nothing to falsify my work.

Undestanding of what is being relayed, should remedy this false sense of security.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

You talk about root words. The Kushana (Tocharian) and Meroitic words come from primary text in these languages. This implies that they are roots since we only have evidence of these languages from textual material. This makes Riley's contentions unfounded.

You've produced no evidence that Meroitic script and Tocharian are one and same, much less that the older Meroitic script derives from the much younger Tocharian. Simply put, the concept doesn't even make sense.


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

First of all you can not recover Proto-Meroitic terms from Egyptian text because a proto language is reconstructed by comparing terms from a target language or number of languages to determine the mother tongue. Anyone who makes a claim that they recovered proto-terms from any text is lieing.

Clearly, you've chosen not to read the link:

list of Proto-Meroitic names of persons, obviously important figures of the first Kushite state, the Kingdom of Kerma, appears in an Egyptian papyrus from the sixteenth century BC. - Rilly

^Simple reading would have sufficed to realize that the proto-names in question, are nothing more than the Kushite [Napatan] precursors of the Meroitic complex.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

None of Rilly's terms have been accepted by anyone studying Meroitic except for kdi. The rest he has made up himself.

I take it that you aren't aware that:


The only basic Meroitic words for which a solid translation had been given by Griffith and his successors are the following :

man / woman / meat / bread / water / give / big / abundant / good / sister / brother / wife / mother / child / begotten / born / feet.


Are you denying that terms for those words had been determined? Well, those terms were readily available for use. You've already been briefed on some of the other methods used to generate additional terms. If you don't get it, then too bad.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

The terms I compared have been accepted as possible Meroitic cognates. His terms are pure conjecture.

It must not be those derived from your comparative work with Tocharian. To that extent, then I take it that you too would have had to have initially worked with the words established by previous researchers, just as Rilly did?


quote:
Clyde Winters:

If these terms actually ever existed you should be able to identify the Meroitic or Egyptian text where they are found.

See posts above, and stop being lazy: read the link.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

Please cite the ancient source Rilly's terms came from that he used to produce his Proto-North Eastern Sudani lexicon.

Making no sense. Several basic Meroitic words were 'taken off the shelf', and additional ones were generated from primary texts & by iconography association. Lexicostatistics was then applied between several so-called Nubian dialects, using certain basic words as a basis, while keeping in mind that this comparison was to be done with the available Meroitic lexicons. Thereafter, classical comparative method was utilized to generate proto-terms for the N. Eastern Sudanic branch, proto-Nubian and proto-Taman. Now of course, this has already been relayed to you, and you either chose to ignore it and/or don't get it. This won't be reiterated again.


quote:
Clyde Winters:

In addition, please reproduce the Meroitic terms accepted by most researchers that Rilly used to compare with the Proto-North Eastern Sudani terms.

He provides 'examples' in the table. Reference it in the link. Now, produce the answer to my simple question to you about the aforementioned dubious use of Tocharian to decipher Meroitic, and I'll address it accordingly when I return [later].
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Djehuti
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^ LOL @ Clyde's linguistic debaucle:

Indo-Iranian (Indo-European) speaking Kushana being confused with Kushites, and the Dravidian word 'amma' being confused with the African deity Amen! LOL And you wonder why this guy is considered a laughing stock by true linguists! [Big Grin]

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Yonis
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL @ Clyde's linguistic debaucle:

Indo-Iranian (Indo-European) speaking Kushana being confused with Kushites, and the Dravidian word 'amma' being confused with the African deity Amen! LOL And you wonder why this guy is considered a laughing stock by true linguists! [Big Grin]

Its actually sad, clyde winters seems to have some sort of tunnel vision going on, he knows he's wrong but he doesn't seem to care for whatever reason when strong evidence are laid infront of him by his opponents. He obviously has the intelligence to change and refine himself to better counter his opponents by sound evidence, but he doesn't seem to care.

Konfucius once said " only a fool and the wisest of all men never change " I hope this great quote might give him some insight.

Kushans of Asia and kushites of africa in nile valley have no significant relationship, atleast not more than other people in between and sarrounding both of these people.
A chinese has more relationship to kushans than to the kushites and an Egyptian has more relationship to kushites than a kushan far away in asia.

Btw kushan is only the indianized name, the real name of the establishing nomadic chinese clan was Kuei-shang.

The remnats of the kushan empire.
 -

 -

 -
They don't look that African kushitic know do they clyde winters?

The buddha statues that were recently destroyed by the Talibans were also created by the kushans during the hight of their kushan empire.

 -

 -

The closest descendants of the kushans.
 -

They don't look quite kushitic now do they Clyde Winters?
You seriously need to stop with these borderline childish claims of yours based on superficial issues such as similar sounding names if you really want to be taken seriously, just a brotherly advice.

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Obelisk_18
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Um, something kiiiiinda on topic, but not, does "Cushi" in the Hebrew name always mean black/dark-skinned? And if thats true, would that make Zephanaiah a "Cushite"? jus trying to figure something out here babes....
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL @ Clyde's linguistic debaucle:

Indo-Iranian (Indo-European) speaking Kushana being confused with Kushites, and the Dravidian word 'amma' being confused with the African deity Amen! LOL And you wonder why this guy is considered a laughing stock by true linguists! [Big Grin]

Its actually sad, clyde winters seems to have some sort of tunnel vision going on, he knows he's wrong but he doesn't seem to care for whatever reason when strong evidence are laid infront of him by his opponents. He obviously has the intelligence to change and refine himself to better counter his opponents by sound evidence, but he doesn't seem to care.

Konfucius once said " only a fool and the wisest of all men never change " I hope this great quote might give him some insight.

Kushans of Asia and kushites of africa in nile valley have no significant relationship, atleast not more than other people in between and sarrounding both of these people.
A chinese has more relationship to kushans than to the kushites and an Egyptian has more relationship to kushites than a kushan far away in asia.

Btw kushan is only the indianized name, the real name of the establishing nomadic chinese clan was Kuei-shang.

The remnats of the kushan empire.
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They don't look that African kushitic know do they clyde winters?

The buddha statues that were recently destroyed by the Talibans were also created by the kushans during the hight of their kushan empire.

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The closest descendants of the kushans.
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They don't look quite kushitic now do they Clyde Winters?
You seriously need to stop with these borderline childish claims of yours based on superficial issues such as similar sounding names if you really want to be taken seriously, just a brotherly advice.

These pictures are of Saka, not Kushana.
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Clyde Winters
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You have to be very careful when you describe coins as Kushan. Some of the coins published on the Web are Bactrian and Greek coins that are promoted as Kushan coins.

Also, it is important to remember that the Kushan empire included many diverse nationalities and coins were minted in the languages of these subject people.

Furthermore, if you check the date for Kushan coins and other documents you will see that many of them date back to the period of the Meroitic empire.

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Kushana

King Kaniska of the Kushan
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Kanishka Casket

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Kushana

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Yonis
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quote:
Clyde winters.
These pictures are of Saka, not Kushana

Which picture above is of "saka" (what is saka) are you trying to deny that these buddha statuse in modern Afghanistan were a production of the kushans who btw look nothing like "kushites" in the African continent as you propose?
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:
Clyde winters.
These pictures are of Saka, not Kushana

Which picture above is of "saka" (what is saka) are you trying to deny that these buddha statuse in modern Afghanistan were a production of the kushans who btw look nothing like "kushites" in the African continent as you propose?
See:

web page

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rasol
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quote:
You have to be very careful when you describe coins as Kushan.
You ought to be very careful not to leap to wild conclusions everytime you find a word vaguely similar to kush, or anu or amun.

Ought to, but probably won't, i know. [Smile]

quote:
Also, it is important to remember that the Kushan empire included many diverse nationalities and coins were minted in the languages of these subject people.
It's important to remember that there is *no evidence* that any of these diverse people have anything to do with Nile Valley Civilisation. But you will probably forget, I know. [Smile]
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