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Pretty intrusting work, then again I always knew about China's "Golden Age" and how it surpassed the friggin world during that period .
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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^ Mind you, not just China but many other Asian civilizations from Western Asia and India to even Southeast Asia.
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Im not just talking Asian civilizations in General Djehuti, im just talking about ones that were so advanced that they were on the verge of industrialization, the only one being China .
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Im not just talking Asian civilizations in General Djehuti, im just talking about ones that were so advanced that they were on the verge of industrialization, the only one being China .
I was watching something on the History Channel about the engineering of the Chinese during the Middle Ages. The program talked about how they had medieval landmines and all kinds of highly advanced items LONG before "the West" did.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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I think the reason we Westerners have become so powerful is that we used to function like the Borg. We adopted ("assimilated") other cultures' discoveries into our own, perhaps making a few modifications. This isn't necessarily a nefarious thing, for all great art has foreign influences (and of course, in the last few centuries, we have become THE major innovators).
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^ LOL I have said the EXACT same thing a couple of years back on a thread that asked why the West was so powerful. They are indeed like the Borg from Star Trek, assimilating many things but maintaining the European/white hegemony.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Im not just talking Asian civilizations in General Djehuti, im just talking about ones that were so advanced that they were on the verge of industrialization, the only one being China .
^ I know, but I was talking about Asian civilizations in general that influenced Western civilization which was exactly what that book was about. Much of modern Western mathematics for example was borrowed from Arabs and Indians.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I was watching something on the History Channel about the engineering of the Chinese during the Middle Ages. The program talked about how they had medieval landmines and all kinds of highly advanced items LONG before "the West" did.
Yeah, I saw that one and several other shows on Medieval China and they all agree that China could have easily taken over the globe, including Europe! The Chinese however were content with just trading and were not interested in overseas expansion. Unfortunately one of the last Ming Emperors (I forgot his name) began and isolationist policy and forbade the building of overseas ships-- A big mistake.
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL I have said the EXACT same thing a couple of years back on a thread that asked why the West was so powerful. They are indeed like the Borg from Star Trek, assimilating many things but maintaining the European/white hegemony.
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Im not just talking Asian civilizations in General Djehuti, im just talking about ones that were so advanced that they were on the verge of industrialization, the only one being China .
^ I know, but I was talking about Asian civilizations in general that influenced Western civilization which was exactly what that book was about. Much of modern Western mathematics for example was borrowed from Arabs and Indians.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I was watching something on the History Channel about the engineering of the Chinese during the Middle Ages. The program talked about how they had medieval landmines and all kinds of highly advanced items LONG before "the West" did.
Yeah, I saw that one and several other shows on Medieval China and they all agree that China could have easily taken over the globe, including Europe! The Chinese however were content with just trading and were not interested in overseas expansion. Unfortunately one of the last Ming Emperors (I forgot his name) began and isolationist policy and forbade the building of overseas ships-- A big mistake.
Yeah, too bad the Mongols werent in control of China during the great age of chinese invention (from the latter 14th century onwards) they seemed to be pretty expansionist . The whole world would probalbly be one big khanate!
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Hobson's text should have been titled rather as "The Afrasian Origins of Western Civilization". After all, the theoretical foundations of Western civilization are to be found in Ancient Greece--which, in turn, was greatly influenced by the civilization of Ancient Egypt. Greek mathematics has its roots in Egyptian mathematics and engineering technology. Think of Alexandria and the influential Greek mathematicians and technologists who lived there: Euclid, Archimedes, and others.
Cf: Cheik Diop's "African Origin of Civilization" and "Civilization or Barbarism".
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Think too of Anecient Egypt's bequeathing to the West the following: the modern 365 day calendar, proto-monotheism from which Judaism, Christianity and Islam developed, surgery, writing, Heliocentricity(the illustious Isaac Newton recognised his indebtedness to Egyptian astronomy in his Principia Mathematica), ethics as based on fairness(Maat), architecture in stone, etc. Note too the influence of the Egyptian Plotinus on Augustine(of North Africa), who in turn lay the foundations for Western Christian theology.
In my above post, I forgot to mention Heron of Alexandria who is credited with the inventor of the proto-steam engine.
Note too that there is some controversy as to whether figures like Heron, Euclid, etc, were Hellenised Egyptians or Greek migrants into Egypt.
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Afro-Asiatic civilization isn't exactly "Eastern." It's only defined as such in the Western mind, but its origins are African.
Similarly, Ethiopian civilization, culture, art, etc., is often (mis-)classified as "Eastern."
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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_______ BIG ASS CHINESE TREASURE SHIP vs. pooh-butt Iberian carrack ("cargo caravel") _______
quote: Zheng He captained seven naval expeditions to project Imperial power, protect and extend Chinese trade, and possibly vassalize far-away peoples. He assembled a huge naval fleet--317 ships holding almost 28,000 armed troops for his first voyage. By comparison, the U.S. Navy in 2007 has only 277 ships on active duty. .
Imagine if you were an early 14th century Indian or Arab, and saw 317 ships bearing down on your harbor! This was meant to impress (and intimidate) foreign peoples into paying China tribute.
Zheng He led his fleet with 62 mammoth, nine-masted "treasure ships." They are described as so massive (400 ft long and 170 ft wide) many experts dismiss them as impossibly large, because early modern ships of comparable size were unwieldy and usually sank.
Typical Eurocentric comment: "By George, if we didn't do it then it simply couldn't be done."
quote: Moroccan explorer ibn Battuta visited China and saw the giant fleet being constructed. He wrote that a nine-masted ship "...has four decks and contains rooms, cabins, and saloons for merchants; each cabin has chambers and a lavatory, and can be locked by its occupants."
quote: But where did Zheng He (pronounced "Zung Ha") go with his legendary fleet? And what did he do when he got there? Well, on his seven voyages he went up and down Indonesia, visited India, Persia, Arabia and Africa. The purpose was to make "first contact" with strange new peoples (like the Starship Enterprise) but also awe them with China's power, give gifts of their finest silk and porcelain (showing superiority) and in exchange, extract tribute. Zheng He brought back gifts of African zebras and giraffes for the Imperial zoo.
quote: Zheng He made it all the way down to Kenya (they found ancient Chinese artifacts there) and there is some evidence he went beyond the tip of Africa and into the Atlantic Ocean. Zheng himself wrote of his travels: [i] We have traversed more than 100,000 li (50,000 kilometers) of immense water spaces and have beheld in the ocean huge waves like mountains rising in the sky, and we have set eyes on barbarian regions far away hidden in a blue transparency of light vapors, while our sails, loftily unfurled like clouds day and night, continued their course [as rapidly] as a star, traversing those savage waves as if we were treading a public thoroughfare…[i]
— (Tablet erected by Zheng He, Changle, Fujian, 1432)
quote: If China had continued on the path of Zheng He, much more of the world may be culturally like Indonesia now. Zheng He made a significant impact on Indonesia. His voyages there are well documented, and he left Ming-style architecture behind, as well as lots of Chinese people. He relocated a lot of Chinese Muslims to Indonesia and Malay. Indonesia is the most populous majority-Muslim state on Earth today, in no small part due to Zheng He and his crew promulgating the Islamic faith there. He was buried at sea when he died during a voyage in India in 1433, but has an Islamic tomb in Nanjing. "Allahu Akbar" is inscribed in Arabic above the door.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: China could have easily taken over the globe! The Chinese however were content with just trading and were not interested in overseas expansion. Unfortunately one of the last Ming Emperors (I forgot his name) began an isolationist policy and forbade the building of overseas ships -- A big mistake.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ Yes I have. That mess was ridiculous! China was so advanced, they were even on the verge of the industrial revolution, but I forgot what happened that prevented it. It's been a while since I saw it.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: _______ BIG ASS CHINESE TREASURE SHIP vs. pooh-butt Iberian carrack ("cargo caravel") _______
Zheng He captained seven naval expeditions to project Imperial power, protect and extend Chinese trade, and possibly vassalize far-away peoples. He assembled a huge naval fleet--317 ships holding almost 28,000 armed troops for his first voyage. By comparison, the U.S. Navy in 2007 has only 277 ships on active duty. .
Imagine if you were an early 14th century Indian or Arab, and saw 317 ships bearing down on your harbor! This was meant to impress (and intimidate) foreign peoples into paying China tribute.
Zheng He led his fleet with 62 mammoth, nine-masted "treasure ships." They are described as so massive (400 ft long and 170 ft wide) many experts dismiss them as impossibly large, because early modern ships of comparable size were unwieldy and usually sank.
Typical Eurocentric comment: "By George, if we didn't do it then it simply couldn't be done."...
^ LOL Indeed, such typical Eurocentric arrogance astounds me. We have eye-witness reports as well as evidence in the form of remains of these ships.
That's exactly why I said China could have easily taken over the globe! Add the armada of these mammoth ships with the fire-power and the highly organized government administration, and the rest of Eurasia including Europe and even Africa would have been brought under Chinese imperial power easily! Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti gettin a hard on here lol . Yeaaah china could have been the **** Djehuti, but something in chinese society stopped them from being so Imperialistic, maybe the Mongols should have taken back over lol..... but if China did colonize the new world, would it try to attribute the "advanced" cultures to Chinese influence, "Sinocentrism" lol... like the europeans did... i wonda...
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}: Really?^ Easily, without guns?
That's the thing. China had all the guns and cannons. And their governments seemed alot more organized than Europe's.
quote:Think of all of the land and different peoples...
Would not China have collapsed in under itself?
European powers like the British didn't collapse under themselves! They merely lost control through the various uprisings and rebellions.
quote: That was ill though. I was amazed.
Me too. I never knew how much advanced China was!
quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Djehuti gettin a hard on here lol .
Uh no, but you would like that wouldn't you?
quote:Yeaaah china could have been the **** Djehuti, but something in chinese society stopped them from being so Imperialistic, maybe the Mongols should have taken back over lol.....
No, it happened during the Ming dynasty which was after the Mongols were expelled. One of the Ming emperors set up an isolation policy on the Chinese empire ending all seafaring. Others just followed the policy thinking it would be best and prevent any foreign influences on the culture.
quote:but if China did colonize the new world, would it try to attribute the "advanced" cultures to Chinese influence, "Sinocentrism" lol... like the europeans did... i wonda...
I seriouly doubt it. As ethnocentric as the Chinese were, they did not have the notions of race later Europeans developed such as "kacazoid" or "Mongoloid" (the latter term is one that the Chinese of all people would protest against being called!). The Chinese know enough about their own history and are proud enough not to attribute any advanced culture from themselves. They did not do so with the Indians, Arabs, or Africans they visited so why not the Americans??
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Recap: Some trivia on the history of fire-arms, which became what made European imperialism possible, pointing to origins outside of Europe...
Gunpowder:
The Chinese knew gunpowder in the 11th century, but didn’t know the right proportions of getting explosions and didn’t achieve the necessary purification of potassium nitrate. The first Chinese book, which details the explosives proportion, was in 1412 by Huo Lung Ching. [1]
Al-Rammah’s book is the first to explain the purification procedure for potassium nitrate and described many recipes for making gunpowder with the correct proportions to achieve explosion. This is *necessary for the development of canons**.
Partington [ 3] says “the collection of recipes was probably taken from different sources at different times in the author’s family and taken down. Such recipes are described as tested.” Al-Razi, Al-Hamdany, and an Arabic-Syriaque manuscript of the 10th century describe potassium nitrate. Ibn Al-Bitar describes it in 1240. The Arab-Syriaque manuscript of the 10th century gives some recipes of gunpowder. It is assumed that these were added in the 13th century.
The Latin book “Liber Ignium” of Marcus Graecus is originally Arabic (translated in Spain) gives many recipes for making gunpowder the last four of which must have been added to the book in 1280 or 1300. “Did Roger Bacon derive his famous cryptic gunpowder in his Epistola of ca. 1260 from the crusader Peter of Maricourt, some other traveler or from a wide range of reading from Arabic and alchemical books”. References [1], [3], and Joseph Needham, doubt the correctness and effectiveness of the recipe of Bacon.
The German scientist Albert Magnus obtained his information from the “Liber Ignium” originally an Arabic book translated in Spain.
Evidence of the use of gunpowder during the crusades in Fustat, in Egypt, 1168 was found in the form of traces of potassium nitrate. Such traces were also found in 1218 during the siege of Dumyat and in the battle of Al-Mansoura in 1249.
Winter mentions, “the Chinese may have discovered saltpeter (gunpowder) or else that discovery may have been transmitted to them by the Muslims whom they had plenty of opportunities of meeting either at home or abroad. Sarton is referring to Arab-Muslim traders to China, as well as Arab inhabitants in China. As early as 880 an estimated 120,000 Muslims, Jews and Persians lived in Canton alone.”
Canons and Rockets:
There are four Arabic manuscripts (Almakhzoun manuscripts; one in Petersburg, two in Paris and one in Istanbul) in 1320 describing the first portable canon with suitable gunpowder. This description is principally the same as for modern guns. Such canons were used in the famous battle of Ain-Galout against the Mongols (1260).
The Mamlouks developed the canons further during the 14th century.
In Spain, Arabs used canons defending Seville (1248), in Granada 1319, in Baza or Albacete 1324, in Huescar and Martos 1325, in Alicante 1331 and in Algeziras 1342-1344. Partington says, “ the history of artillery in Spain is related to that of the Arabs”.
J.R. Partington mentions, “Arabic accounts suggest that the Arabs introduced firearms into Spain, from where they passed to Italy, from there to France, and finally Germany.”
“The Arabs, in any event, appear to have been the first to inherit (and possibly) originate the secret of the rocket, and it was through Arabic writings, rather than the Mongols -- that the Europeans came to know the rocket. The two notable examples of Arabic knowledge of the rocket are the so-called “self-moving and combusting egg” of the Syrian Al-Hassan Al-Rammah (d. 1294 - 1295), details of which may be found in Willey Ley’s popular “Rockets, Missiles, and Space Travel” and physician Yusuf ibn Ismail Al-Kutub’s description (1311) of the saltpeter (“they use it to make a fire which rises and moves, thus increasing it in lightness and inflammability”). - Frank H. Winter
Sources: Courtesy of FSTC
^Europeans may have been in their so-called "Dark Ages" during much of the said time frame, but as demonstrated, technology had been progressing quite rapidly elsewhere all that time, which they'd soon adopt, only to then pretend that significant advances in technology ceased to occur between the time from the collapse of the Roman empire and the lead up to the time when European imperialism began to pick up pace, particularly in the 19th century, when European imperialists went on a rampage to setup colonies around the world. As was the norm then, the technology of firearm machinery flowed into Europe in a south-to-northward direction.
Is it just me, or would China still be the most advanced and powerful country in the world if they had not taken up Communism? It is peculiar that one ideology was enough to transform such a mighty empire into a Third World dunghole.
Is it just me, or would China still be the most advanced and powerful country in the world if they had not taken up Communism? It is peculiar that one ideology was enough to transform such a mighty empire into a Third World dunghole.
China was down the tubes long before it became communist.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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^ True. The only reason why the Maoists took over the country in the first place was because of political strife. But who knows what could have happened.
Posts: 26295 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Thanks AlTakruri,man that Chinese ship looks like a super carrier next to the Spanish?? ship.
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. The whole world would probalbly be one big khanate!
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That was ill though. I was amazed.
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