posted
I don't know if you guys have ever heard of this early Medieval Muslim scholar...but I ran across his name and one of the books he wrote while re-reading Golden Age of the Moor a little while ago. I decided to look up 'Uthman' Amr ibn Bahr al-Jahiz and the Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites. The original arabic of the title reads...
Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh
Can anyone translate this? I want to know if the english translation around the internet is accurate because I've seen the title phrased differently.
The site below is a very lengthy translation of his book. Though I noticed the word Negroes is used once...which brings to question the validity of some of the translations of modern translators putting modern words in (as opposed to using the original word and adding context).
In Golden Age of the Moor, it is written that al-Jahiz stated, "amoung the Blacks are counted the Sudanese, the Ethiopians, the Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, and the Moors."
Again, the question of the original wording comes into play. Were names like Sudanese and Moor used in al-Jahiz's time (700-800 CE)?
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posted
What I'm trying to grasp more than anything about Jahiz, is his seeming contradictions that seem to defy logic, unless there is some sort of satirical meaning or contextual mockery. For instance, in Jahiz' Kitab al-Bukhala (Book of Misers or Avarice & the Avaricious), he allegedly writes about the East African Zanj that:
We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
Source: Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Earl Hood, Pg 9
^I don't understand.. One minute he praises the Zanj and the next minute he disparages them. There are at least 2 other quotes from him which are very similar and is something that I haven't been able to reconcile.
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posted
To the best of my knowledge he was of Zanj descent himself. Zanj are only one of the black ethnies, check the above thread link for the complete list.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To the best of my knowledge he was of Zanj descent himself. Zanj are only one type of blacks, check the above thread link for the complete list.
Apparently.. But in other words, he's referring to his own people (the Zanj) as unintelligent and incapable of understanding? Makes even less sense, which is the main point of confusion.
quote: We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
^^^ He didn't reference any other blacks from that list in this quotation.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: What I'm trying to grasp more than anything about Jahiz, is his seeming contradictions that seem to defy logic, unless there is some sort of satirical meaning or context mockery. For instance, in Jahiz' Kitab al-Bukhala (Book of Misers or Avarice & the Avaricious), he allegedly writes about the East African Zanj that:
We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
Source: Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Earl Hood, Pg 9
^I don't understand.. One minute he praises the Zanj and the next minute he disparages them. There are at least 2 other quotes from him which are very similar and is something that I haven't been able to reconcile.
I've heard about the contradictions in his work. Some think this work was only the please the rulers or something...I forgot. Others say he was Black...so who knows.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: What I'm trying to grasp more than anything about Jahiz, is his seeming contradictions that seem to defy logic, unless there is some sort of satirical meaning or context mockery. For instance, in Jahiz' Kitab al-Bukhala (Book of Misers or Avarice & the Avaricious), he allegedly writes about the East African Zanj that:
We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
Source: Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Earl Hood, Pg 9
^I don't understand.. One minute he praises the Zanj and the next minute he disparages them. There are at least 2 other quotes from him which are very similar and is something that I haven't been able to reconcile.
I've heard about the contradictions in his work. Some think this work was only the please the rulers or something...I forgot. Others say he was Black...so who knows.
Plausible I guess.. That it was literally done in order to appeal to his contemporaries, but then again it does deviate drastically from his defiant approach to black pride and seeming contempt for "whites", and asserted black superiority(which would definitely have no appeal).. Then again, maybe he wasn't black. But if so, what's with these assertions in the first place, with an entire book dedicated to them, along with his self-identification as a "black"? Confusing as hell to say the least, LOL..
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posted
alTakruri: I know about the threads where he has been mentioned. But as far as I know, there hasn't been one specifically devoted to him (someone who has been described a literary genius in Islamic circles).
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: What I'm trying to grasp more than anything about Jahiz, is his seeming contradictions that seem to defy logic, unless there is some sort of satirical meaning or contextual mockery. For instance, in Jahiz' Kitab al-Bukhala (Book of Misers or Avarice & the Avaricious), he allegedly writes about the East African Zanj that:
We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
Source: Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Earl Hood, Pg 9
^I don't understand.. One minute he praises the Zanj and the next minute he disparages them. There are at least 2 other quotes from him which are very similar and is something that I haven't been able to reconcile.
I have not read this particular book by al Jahiz, but I have found in my research that you should check the original document before you accept what he is alleged to have said. You should learn Arabic--read the text yourself, and then determine if what is written is true or false.
posted
He was supposedly African, from East Africa and he was black obviously. He was a satirist! The Batle of the Zanj in Iraq was the culmination of their appearance in Iraq.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: What I'm trying to grasp more than anything about Jahiz, is his seeming contradictions that seem to defy logic, unless there is some sort of satirical meaning or contextual mockery. For instance, in Jahiz' Kitab al-Bukhala (Book of Misers or Avarice & the Avaricious), he allegedly writes about the East African Zanj that:
We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
Source: Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Earl Hood, Pg 9
^I don't understand.. One minute he praises the Zanj and the next minute he disparages them. There are at least 2 other quotes from him which are very similar and is something that I haven't been able to reconcile.
I have not read this particular book by al Jahiz, but I have found in my research that you should check the original document before you accept what he is alleged to have said. You should learn Arabic--read the text yourself, and then determine if what is written is true or false.
.
Good suggestion and is something that I considered, however, I could never get my hands on the relevant primary source, which is al-Jahiz - Kitab al-Bukhala. As it is, I simply put faith in the translations provided by the proper authorities in the same way I do with his "Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh"(however that may be translated)..
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: He was supposedly African, from East Africa and he was black obviously. He was a satirist! The Batle of the Zanj in Iraq was the culmination of their appearance in Iraq.
Quote: He was a satirist!
^Yes, which is why I suggested that maybe this was satirical.(?) I'm aware that Kitab al-Bukhala was a satire so it wouldn't be out of the question that his contempt towards the Zanj was merely satire. I only questioned that based on the fact that he makes similar references (allegedly) in two other books which makes it all (everything he writes about blacks in particular) difficult to discern..
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posted
Ok, according to his biography on Marcusgarvey.com, Jahiz was the grandson of an African by the name of Amr ben Bahr. However, on Garvey's page, the actual book that is of concern is translated a wee bit differently than the above link from Scorpion, with the ending and beginning being of notable interest as it seems as if he's speaking in third person.
First paragraph: Quote: But I did not mention in it anything about the boasts of the Sudan. So know, - may Allah preserve you – that I postponed that intentionally. And you mentioned that you would like me to write to you the boasts of the Sudan, so I have written what I recall of their boasts.
Last paragraph: Quote: And this is all that came to my mind about what the blacks could be proud about. In former books we wrote of the pride of the Qahtan and later on if God whishes I will write on the pride of the Adnam against the Qahtan in much of what they said. http://www.geocities.com/pieterderideaux/jahiz.html
^^Strikes me as a 3rd person account and an exclusion of himself being a participant.. But after all, I am still learning about who he was and I could be looking into this all too literally, but maybe I'd have fewer questions if I were reassured of his parental lineage, outside of his grandfather's line.
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posted
Yes i also think he was writing as a third person, he could also be an arabised "Zanj" who identified more as arab. The muslim world during early middle ages worked as opposite as todays one drop rule in america, if you basically had a drop of "arab blood" then you were automaticly an arab. The profet said himself being an arab doesn't come from your looks but from the moves of your mouth. Alot of writers during that time might have been what would be considered black today, but we will never know since they identified as arab an so did their sarrounding, "Ethnic arabs" have taken to much credit of all works during that period done by people who genetically belong outside the arabic peninsula. Even persian writers/scientist who wrote in Bagdad were only identified as persian because of their surname and city of birth. Otherwise they would have also gone down to history as arabs, which many have done since it wasn't uncommon for persians to adopt complete arabic names and were born outside persian territory.
Ibn khaldun the Tunisian historian and sociologist also wrote a passage so to emphasize the little contribution "real arabs" had on the islamic litterature in comparison to persians and Azeris.
"Thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, "If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it"…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture."Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
There was no great "Arab" civilization prior to 600AD. Most of what made the Islamic world great was the fact it inherited the knowledge and culture of many ancient empires under one banner. Therefore, under Islam, you had Egypt, Carthage, Mauritania, parts of the Byzantine Empire, Persia, Mesopotamia, Babylon, India and East Asia. None of these places were Arab prior to 600 AD yet by 800AD and later they were part of the Arab world.
Arabs used Islam to ensure their right to rule over the converted. This is why so many used claims of being descended from Mohamed(PBUH) as a way of claiming Arab ancestry. Indeed this idea of being a descendant of the prophet or one of his lieutenants was nothing more than a way to glorify Arab ancestry in the Muslim world and ensure that Arabs were able to elevate themselves among all other groups.
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quote:Doug M: There was no great "Arab" civilization prior to 600AD. Most of what made the Islamic world great was the fact it inherited the knowledge and culture of many ancient empires under one banner.
Yes there was! What about Nabataeans and the Sabaeans? Clearly these were quite sophisticated civilizations. Not all of the arabian peninsula was nomadic, the Yemenites had equally a sedentary society as the people of the levant.
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posted
^Speaking of Sabeans, I've heard that the Sabeans were black and were referred to cushites in some texts? jus wondering...
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Doug M: There was no great "Arab" civilization prior to 600AD. Most of what made the Islamic world great was the fact it inherited the knowledge and culture of many ancient empires under one banner.
Yes there was! What about Nabataeans and the Sabaeans? Clearly these were quite sophisticated civilizations. Not all of the arabian peninsula was nomadic, the Yemenites had equally a sedentary society as the people of the levant.
I agree with this point. I'd also add that most of what made Islamic Civilization great was what it added to what it inherited. Unfortunately there still is a perception that Muslims were simply custodians of prevailing knowledge and technology that they transferred onto Europe to do with real heavy-lifting.
Posts: 74 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: ^Speaking of Sabeans, I've heard that the Sabeans were black and were referred to cushites in some texts? jus wondering...
They were refered to as Cushites in some texts. Which is why I would refrain from calling them Arabs in the simplest sense. There have already been several threads about them already...so...
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posted
One thing to compare is the date each work was written.
If he did write that way about the Zanj and himself being of Zanj descent would matter little.
Look at Americans of West African descent and the condescending attitude some display toward their ancestral homeland and its people as they write glowingly of black achievements.
Contradictory?
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: He was raised in Bozra as far as I know and never traveled to his ancestral home the east coast of Africa.
Well maybe it can be seen as cultural bias, I don't know.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [Q] One thing to compare is the date each work was written.
If he did write that way about the Zanj and himself being of Zanj descent would matter little.
Look at Americans of West African descent and the condescending attitude some display toward their ancestral homeland and its people as they write glowingly of black achievements.
Contradictory?
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: He was raised in Bozra as far as I know and never traveled to his ancestral home the east coast of Africa.
Well maybe it can be seen as cultural bias, I don't know.
[/Q]
Good point. But not all Black Americans do that, I've always seen the comedic attitude towards Africans as ignorance.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ibn khaldun the Tunisian historian and sociologist also wrote a passage so to emphasize the little contribution "real arabs" had on the islamic litterature in comparison to persians and Azeris.
"Thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, "If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it"…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture."
Ibn khaldun was a very respected scholar in his own right, but he was also victim to commonly held stereotypes of blacks at the time, and wrote some of the most egregious things concerning them. He also had some very mean things to say about Arabs. Nonetheless it doesn't take away from many of his scholarly contributions to world history and at least, while writing about Ethiopia and Mali, he recognized them as having civilization. Ibn Battuta will always be my favorite (non-black) Islamic writer of that time period though, for obvious reasons.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One thing to compare is the date each work was written.
If he did write that way about the Zanj and himself being of Zanj descent would matter little.
Look at Americans of West African descent and the condescending attitude some display toward their ancestral homeland and its people as they write glowingly of black achievements.
Contradictory?
No, not at all and point well taken. This is why I wanted to figure out his exact lineage, what his parents were and if he was of dual descent. The simplest solution however, when one comes to terms with the information available, given the fact that his grandfather is noted to have been African, it wouldn't at all be far fetched to assume that both of his parents were also, and certainly one of them had to be. If in fact he did refer to the Zanj in such a manner I can also take your first point into consideration in that it is even more irrelevant since he described more than one black people (including the Copts and Moors), so this wouldn't have been a "racial" projection of stereotypes. Just thought about the significance of this point also..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Obelisk: ^Speaking of Sabeans, I've heard that the Sabeans were black and were referred to cushites in some texts? jus wondering...
No, they were yemenites.
Yes. They were south Arabians, and perhaps not anymore different from contemporary Yemeni than people in ancient Ethiopian complexes are from contemporary inhabitants of that region. Like their Semitic-speaking counterparts in the African Horn, there has obviously been some dialect shifts in the region, with some Semitic languages becoming largely defunct and/or infused with contemporary dialects to some degree or another, without any notable population displacement.
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posted
Hey yo, I heard Abu Mohammed, one of the leading scholars of early islam, was black. Wow, blacks certainly as hell had an input on the formation of modern islam, now I wanna join the NOI . lol jus kiddin....
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Hey yo, I heard Abu Mohammed, one of the leading scholars of early islam, was black. Wow, blacks certainly as hell had an input on the formation of modern islam, now I wanna join the NOI . lol jus kiddin....
Quite a few of early scholars of Islam were in fact freed black slaves. Ammar ibn Yasir is one such prominent figure who happen to be freed by the Caliph and close companion of the Prophet (SAS), Abu Bakr.
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posted
^ One of the most important figures in Islam next to the prophet Muhammad himself was a freed Ethiopian slave named Bilal ibn Rabah. He was the first muezzin of Islam or person that does the Adhan-- call to prayer. Even today, muezzins that do the call to prayer try to do so in the Ethiopian accent of Bilal.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ One of the most important figures in Islam next to the prophet Muhammad himself was a freed Ethiopian slave named Bilal ibn Rabah. He was the first muezzin of Islam or person that does the Adhan-- call to prayer. Even today, muezzins that do the call to prayer try to do so in the Ethiopian accent of Bilal.
Do you have a source for this? And does this just mean pronouncing shin as sin?
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Hey yo, I heard Abu Mohammed, one of the leading scholars of early islam, was black. Wow, blacks certainly as hell had an input on the formation of modern islam, now I wanna join the NOI . lol jus kiddin....
Quite a few of early scholars of Islam were in fact freed black slaves. Ammar ibn Yasir is one such prominent figure who happen to be freed by the Caliph and close companion of the Prophet (SAS), Abu Bakr.
what other scholars names do ya have for me? Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Obelisk_18: Hey yo, I heard Abu Mohammed, one of the leading scholars of early islam, was black. Wow, blacks certainly as hell had an input on the formation of modern islam, now I wanna join the NOI . lol jus kiddin....
Quite a few of early scholars of Islam were in fact freed black slaves. Ammar ibn Yasir is one such prominent figure who happen to be freed by the Caliph and close companion of the Prophet (SAS), Abu Bakr.
what other scholars names do ya have for me?
I'll have to do a little investigation and get back to you. Many years ago I remember a friend of mine who is now a professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Univ. of Michigan telling me about a number of famous scholars who were freed black slaves. (BTW, one of his recent books is Islam and the Blackamerican:Looking toward the Third Resurrection )
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posted
Although al-Nazzam made the first steps in the field of biological evolutionary thought in the history of science, for the first time the theory of biological evolution in its complete form was presented by a great early zoologist, al-Jahiz in the ninth century. He was the first to originate it. Al-Jahiz’s theory is an example of scientific revolution and innovation that has had reverberations into the farthest reaches of human thought. It is fair to say that many problems of the philosophy of Nature appeared in a new light after the revolution of al-Jahiz and his successors. Before describing al-Jahiz’s own views and his influence upon Muslim and European thinkers, especially upon Lamarck and Darwin, I want to give some biographical and bibliographical accounts.
BTW, the mother of Ammar ibn Yasir was the first marytr of/in Islam. You can't attain a much higher honor than that in Islam. She was black, and the first!
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BTW, the mother of Ammar ibn Yasir was the first marytr of/in Islam. You can't attain a much higher honor than that in Islam. She was black, and the first!
al-fahkr as-sudan 'alal bidhan فخر السودان على البيضان
quote:In Golden Age of the Moor, it is written that al-Jahiz stated, "amoung the Blacks are counted the Sudanese, the Ethiopians, the Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, and the Moors."
translated; " and counted amongst the sudan are the zanj, the habeshat, fezzan, berber, qibt, nuba, zaghawah, marwe, sind, hind, qamar, ad-dabeela, seen, maseen...........what is from the chinese to the zanj are all blacks or dark skinned the marwe- area in cental asia took by muslim forces during the caliphate of uthman ibn affan(ra)whereas mobilization to occupy areas Balkh, Bokhara, Fergana and Kashgaria were obtained. qamaar-comoros dabeela-cant say for certain/has too many references that point towards nothing concrete seen-china maseen-same as dabeela; they are probably east african areas or shaam areas far as what i dug up
quote:The profet said himself being an arab doesn't come from your looks but from the moves of your mouth.
do you have evidence that the prophet(saw) said that
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by songhai: I agree with this point. I'd also add that most of what made Islamic Civilization great was what it added to what it inherited. Unfortunately there still is a perception that Muslims were simply custodians of prevailing knowledge and technology
quote:We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
the actual text mentions literally that they are the least in time and being deliberate and the most unconscience of actions.
the text translated in the quotes is a more caustic way to say what is translated after it. however one would have to go to the actual context of what he is saying. ex. the point he was trying to make by mentioning the zanj in this way was that people who are portrayed as the most intelligent and wealthiest people also possess the most horrid characteristic of miserliness. he mentions before it that a king could have the most expanded kingdom and easiest access to things but be he most stingiest of people whereas a person who is the most limited in his resources and halted by the presence of enemies would be the most generous people.
this is why he made the reference to the zanj like this. It was prevelant in the arab world to think of the zanj as backwards but it was also known that they were very succesful in the trading business. he was trying to prove that a persons economic gain has nothing to do absolutely with ones plotting and planning but that the primary ingredient to flourishing monetariliy is trust in the lord of the heavens and the earth.
so he mentioned mainly their stereotype to make a point because you also have his fakhr as-sudaan 'ala bidhaan. also to note; abu uthman is not the only one to write about the accomplishments of dark skinned peoples there are scholars better than al-jahiz who did the same ibn al-jawzee suyuti al-jaleel
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:We know that the Zanj are the least intelligent and the least discerning of mankind, and the least capable of understanding the consequences of actions. - al-Jahiz
the actual text mentions literally that they are the least in time and being deliberate and the most unconscience of actions.
the text translated in the quotes is a more caustic way to say what is translated after it. however one would have to go to the actual context of what he is saying. ex. the point he was trying to make by mentioning the zanj in this way was that people who are portrayed as the most intelligent and wealthiest people also possess the most horrid characteristic of miserliness. he mentions before it that a king could have the most expanded kingdom and easiest access to things but be he most stingiest of people whereas a person who is the most limited in his resources and halted by the presence of enemies would be the most generous people.
this is why he made the reference to the zanj like this. It was prevelant in the arab world to think of the zanj as backwards but it was also known that they were very succesful in the trading business. he was trying to prove that a persons economic gain has nothing to do absolutely with ones plotting and planning but that the primary ingredient to flourishing monetariliy is trust in the lord of the heavens and the earth.
so he mentioned mainly their stereotype to make a point because you also have his fakhr as-sudaan 'ala bidhaan. also to note; abu uthman is not the only one to write about the accomplishments of dark skinned peoples there are scholars better than al-jahiz who did the same ibn al-jawzee suyuti al-jaleel
Thank for this interpretation. Just for clarification purposes, the quote was retrieved from this book here by Robert Earl Hood and also from this article here, from ColorQWorld, so forgive me for not being able to contextualize it since it seemed as tho they took a literal interpretation for granted also and didn't feel a need to.
In fact, his stereotypes are horrific and he seemed accustomed to them or at least had no problem in repeating them, bad or good..
They [the Shu`ubiyya] maintain that eloquence is prized by all people at all times - even the Zanj, despite their dimness, their boundless stupidity, their obtuseness, their crude perceptions and their evil dispositions, make long speeches. - Al-Bayan wa`l-tabyin: Volume 3
Both sources seemed just as confused at his seemingly bi-polar approach to recording his thoughts on the Zanj..
One of the writers mentioned below, Al-Jahiz, is believed by many scholars to be of African descent. He once wrote the essay On the Zanj in praise of black Africans, but turned bitter against blacks later in life probably because of the violence of the Zanj slave revolt in Iraq. - ColorQ
After noting some complimentary quotes from Jahiz about the insignificance of "racial differences", Earl Hood writes:
Elsewhere (for reasons not clear) he makes fun of African cultures [Earl Hood then proceeds to cite the previous quote in question] - Begrimed and Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Earl Hood, Pg 8
They seemed just as perplexed as me and seeing as how I can't read Arabic, these are the type of sources that I was lead to depend on for interpretation. In addition, the way that you describe what he meant is still insulting imo. Thanx for those other references also, namely ibn al-jawzee and suyuti al-jaleel.. Haven't heard of them and will see if I can track them down..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: [QUOTE]also to note; abu uthman is not the only one to write about the accomplishments of dark skinned peoples there are scholars better than al-jahiz who did the same ibn al-jawzee suyuti al-jaleel
Can you elaborate on those two? There's not much online about them.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Thank you, abdulkarem3. Can you provide the original Arabic texts and their sources (i.e. the text that preserved the tradition and the modern scholarly publication), please?
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Can you elaborate on those two? There's not much online about them.
they are in arabic as-suyuti who is from asuyut, egypt by the way wrote 2 books one called كتاب رفع شأن الحبشان the book raising the matter of the habeshat and أزهار العروش في أخبار الحبوش flowers of the throne in the narrations of the habeshat نزهة العمر في التفضيل بين البيض والسود والسمر rejoice of the life in what is favorable between the whites the blacks and the browns there is ibn ajawzees book تنوير الغبش فى فضل السودان و الحبش illumination of the light upon the virtues of the rest of the blacks and the habesh
then you have muhammad abdul baqi albukhariwho wrote الطراز المنقوش في محاسن الحبوش carved pattern in fortuity of the habesh
quote:Thank you, abdulkarem3. Can you provide the original Arabic texts and their sources (i.e. the text that preserved the tradition and the modern scholarly publication), please?
the text of his mentioning of the zanj is here وقد علمنا أن الزنج أقصر الناس مرة وروية وأذهلهم عن معرفة العاقبة
مرة - can mean intelligence, ability to connect, to set up decisions, or a rope to connect with so the idea of the statement was that they were a people lacking anything in common with municipal places or its people such as baghdad similiar to the country bumpkin. روية - means something that is leading like a water stream. as to give the idea that they do things by impulse وأذهلهم عن معرفة العاقبة - they are heedless of the future consequences
so the reason why the before mentioned translation is harsh is because he says right after all this فلو كان سخاؤهم إنما هو لكلال حدهم then if they are generous then it is only to orphans of their borders.
so he is saying look at these who you think of as the jeds. look at their virtuous deeds. this is why he used the phrase " we knew of the zanj as " this here he is stressing the learned stereotype which by the way was said to be fostered by the zanj to gain a monopoly own the trade. u r probably asking how would that work. well in some of the historian books it is said that the zanj ate people. it was said that in other parts of africa that no white person has journeyed to ever make it back alive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7zJZZLIRyg
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
^^Would you say that this is indicative of him believing the stereotypes, since they were oft (well at least more than twice) repeated? Also, is the held notion that he was black or Zanj himself supported by the textual evidence in your opinion?
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: this is why he used the phrase "we knew of the zanj as"
So he used a past instead of present tense ("knew" instead of "know")? If so, why do you suppose most English translations used a present tense and how would that apply to the other disparaging references that he's made towards the Zanj where it was translated in the present tense as well?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
He says "وقد علمنا" = "wa-qad 3alimna" = "and we knew." The "qad" functions as a marker of emphasis, and a second marker of the past (the verb is already in the apst tense) - it is most commonly used with past tense verbs, which "3alimna" is. I would translate it as "and indeed we knew."
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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. lol jus kiddin....
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