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Author Topic: ot: - Black Africa
alTakruri
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Mauritania is not a black African country. It's
an African country. It's social hierarchy is one
of Yemini Arab invention but there on the spot in
Africa.

Hassaniya the language of Mauritania is a dialect
of Yemini Arabic used by the Banu Hassan who conquered
the land. It's infused with Zenaga Tamazight and is
unintelligible to Yemini Arabs back in Yemen.

Let's be serious. The definition of "black Africa"
makes the term no more than an euphemism for "negro Africa"
It's a word to divide Africa into colour and culture
dichotomies.

Like Hamite black Africa(n) is a term to be jettisoned
from the vocabulary of progressive Africana students
and scholars, In my opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ The word 'Moor' is derived from the Greek word Maure meaning black. Hence it is the root word for the name of the modern country of Mauritania, which is a black African country. Moor was used by the Spanish and other Europeans during Medieval times to describe the black North African Muslims. The lighter skinned Berber and Arabs were called Saracen. Moor was eventually adopted by many North Africans regardless of color due to the prestige it carried due to powerful Moorish dynasties such as the Almoravids.

This issue was discussed all too many times before. I suggest you look in the archives.


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alTakruri
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Black Africa is one of the stupidest Euro concepts
still parading around as an objective descriptor.

Why isn't there a yellow Asia?

Why isn't there an Arab Asia?

What other Africas are there to go along with black Africa?

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alTakruri
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KEITA ON BLACK AFRICA

from:
Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254 (1992)

pp 246, 247, 250 qv for full cited references


=== AFR PHENO ================================================
quote:


There is a plethora of terms which are inadequate
and confusing, and two of them -- “Mediterranean”
and “Black Africa” -- are examined briefly. Ancient
Egyptian history and human biological variability
have frequently been viewed in the context of these
terms. Addressing “race concepts” is unavoidable.

Hiernaux (1975) has accounted for variation in Africa
using a nonracial approach; he does not specifically
address the northern Nile Valley in great detail, but
his concepts, based on microevolutionary principles
(adaptation, drift, selection), are applicable in this
region in the light of recent archaeological data. For
example, in living and fossil tropical Africans, narrow
faces and noses (versus broad “Negro” ones) do not usually
indicate European or Near Eastern migration or “Europoid“
(Caucasian) genes, called Hamitic as once taught, but
represent indigenous variation, either connoting a hot-dry
climatic adaptation or resulting from drift. Hiernaux calls
this morphology “Elongated African.” Some of the neolithic
Saharans of tropical African affinity who emigrated to the
Nile Valley might be an example.

The view that “elongated” characteristics are indigenous
and equally tropical African (“Black) for specific
archaeological series and peoples is supported by Gabel
(1966, Hiernaux (1975), and Rightmire (1975a,b). The
range of variation, “Broad” (stereotypical “Negro”) to
Elongated, can be subsumed within a single unit designated
Africoid, thereby acknowledging the wider affinities and
multiple tropical microadaptive strategies, as well as drift.

Hiernaux’s perspectives are relevant to the creators of
ancient Nile Valley culture, which is an integral part
of, and originated in a larger African context and is not
simply a part of, or a corridor to or from the “Mediterranean
world” -- a cultural construct with limited explanatory power
today, as noted by Herzfeld (1984), and almost certainly less
in the early Holocene.

“Black Africa,” as usually presented, also is a problematic
cultural and biological construct, and a product of philosophical
idealism, with an associated set of fixed ideas about phenotypes,
culture, and geography.


“Black African,” biologically speaking, has been frequently
restricted to the extreme “Negro” morphotype, as though this
were a biological unit, and below a certain latitude; this
would be analogous to “White European” being restricted to
the “Nordic” or “East Baltic” phenotype above a certain
latitude. Modern biology, ancient Saharan art and remains,
classical European writers and artifacts, and ancient
Maghrebian and Nile Valley remains and archaeology make
problematic the boundaries of a “Black African” entity in
terms of geography, culture, or biological characteristics
in the ancient period (see reviews in Snowden, 1970; Hiernaux,
1975; Keita, 1990).

“Subsaharan” is not a terminological improvement, since “Blacks”
were not confined below any particular latitude. For example,
there is morphological continuity of Negroid traits from the
later Paleolithic through early dynastic periods in southern
Egypt/Nubia. Moreover, as Snowden (1970) notes, “Blacks” were
described in ancient Carthage and on the southern slopes of the
Atlas mountains, all at the latitude of northern Egypt.

. . . .

The practice of making only the Broad (extreme “Negro”) phenotype
the only “real” tropical African, and regarding only this phenotype
in Egyptian art as evidence of “the Black (read African) (e.g.,
Vercoutter,1976), would be analogous to searching for “Nordic” or
“East Baltic” phenotypes in realistic Greek statuary as evidence of
the “True White,” and implying the other Greeks to be non-Europeans.
Ripley (1923) long ago dismissed the idea that only the Nordic was
the “real white” (“Homo europaeus’y . This kind of paradigm and the
“Mediterranean Race” concept as applied in Africa is inconsistent
with modern population biology and African archaeology, and is a
relict from a previous era.



=== OUTDATED TERMS ============================================
quote:

It is beyond the scope of this present effort to fully examine
the history of, and difficulties with, these and other such
concepts and terms, and the terminology of older work is retained
here, with reservations.


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Yonis
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Tell that to all americans and other diaspora "blacks", recent or not, who base their whole identity on this colour.
They have utterly accepted it, infact even defending it as their precious little thing.

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alTakruri
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Black Americans are of a case where they for nearly
all their generations were very ashamed of being
called black or African. Much to their credit they
abandoned terminolgy like colored, race man, negro,
and took pride in blackness and Africanity.

However they need to realize black is after all just
a color and denotes no land, culture, nor language
and thus cannot serve as an identity label.

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2017. All rights reserved.

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Yonis
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quote:
alTakruri:
However they need to realize black is after all just
a color and denotes no land, culture, nor language
and thus cannot serve as an identity label.

True, i agree.
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rasol
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quote:
Yom: Yonis is 100% Black African (not African American).
quote:
Africa: I don't think he identifies as such, !
quote:
Yom:
Trust me, he does identify as a Black African.

Your turn, Yonis.....
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Yonis
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I've already stated before that i see myself as a Somali then African and that's it.
My parents don't identify as "black", and neither do i, and for sure my children won't either, and their children will hopefully not do that too.

Why would anyone want to base their identity on a colour? [Confused]

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rasol
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^ Thanks for clarifying.
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Elijah The Tishbite
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis:
Tell that to all americans and other diaspora "blacks", recent or not, who base their whole identity on this colour.
They have utterly accepted it, infact even defending it as their precious little thing.

Yonis, thats a whole different matter. To be "black" in America simply means to be a person of African descent and doesn't correspond to a phenotype. Most of us use Afro-American in addition to African-American.
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Nuary32
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Black Africa is one of the stupidest Euro concepts
still parading around as an objective descriptor.

Why isn't there a yellow Asia?

Why isn't there an Arab Asia?

What other Africas are there to go along with black Africa?

I agree. I take it the term is synonomous with sub saharan africa(although sub saharan africa can actually be used to simply specify a geographic area). Both terms nonetheless, carry their share of subtle bias(although one conceals it a tad bit better) [Big Grin]
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rasol
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^ There are a few things wrong with the general premise of this thread, which places anthropology [scientific objective] and ethnicity [subjective identity constructs] under the same grab bag and then imagines to objectively assess them both.

This is a mistake for a number of reasons.

But for now, I will just answer a question....


quote:
Why isn't there an Arab Asia?
Because most of Asia isn't Arab and the Arabs could never get away with such a transgressive claim.

The closest relation to this claim *in Asia* is the "Jewish" state, of Israel.

Jew is no more or less a valid -identity- than African, Black or any combination of the above, and it's a mistake to try to tell anyone else what *their* identity ought to be, or to imagine that one's own identity is somehow objectively superior in conception.

But back to the Arabs.


They can't claim and Arab Asia..... but that does not stop them from claiming and "Arab world", most of which happens to be in Africa and much of it, *non* Arab.

The Arab World (Arabic: العالم العربي; Transliteration: al-`alam al-`arabi) stretches from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to the Arabian/Persian Gulf in the east, and from the Mediterranean Sea in the north to Central Africa and the Indian Ocean in the south. It consists of 23 countries with a combined population of some 325 million people spanning two continents.

 -


How come there is and Arab world, and a Jewish state?

My rule of thumb is -> Never try to tell anyone else what their identity 'should' be.

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rasol
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quote:
How come there is and Arab world?
Answer: The Arab League's main goal is to unify politically the "Arab" populations so defined.


linguistic and political denotation inherent in the term "Arab" is generally dominant over genealogical considerations.

Thus, individuals with *little or no direct ancestry from the Arabian peninsula (e.g., Black Africans, Berbers) could be considered "Arabs"* by virtue of their mother tongue

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Viriato
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Why can't they claim an Arab Asia, as in the the part of Asia that is Arab?
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rasol
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^ A claim is only as good as your ability to get others to acknowledge it.

You can do this by many means. Brainwashing via religous conversion is one method.

Outright violence is another.

Try claiming Israel as a part of the Arab world... and see how far you get, before you are "corrected" by the United States Military among others.

Ask "Arab-World"_leader, Sadaam, if you don't take the meaning. [Wink]

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Viriato
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But they would by claiming the countries in Asia where Arabs live. Well, there are minorities in some of those countries, yes. Like Kurds, Turkics, Assyrian, who wouldn't want the area they live in to be labeled Arab Asia. But then, Arabs never cared about them, lol.
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Nuary32
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The term itself encompasses a population who simply share the same language, basically rendering the attempt the exact same as the arab world. [Big Grin]

To be more specific, an arab world within the bounds of asia...considering the diversity of arabs it would be a gross equivalent of the absurd term "black africa".

Then again, the middle east might as well represent the area at which "arabs" are predominant. Names are simply names afterall, and can fulfill a purpose without ever implying it in text. [Smile]

I guess the essential point of the thread is making note of the flaws imposing an identity, or , possesses. You only see this in Africa, as al takuri pointed out. Terms like east asia in no way give the impression of a land of yellow people, black africa gives to Africa, for example.

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rasol
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quote:
Arab World: The term itself encompasses a population who simply share the same language
Lol. What nonsense.

The term Arab World is a politically charged, imperialistic *claim*, by Arabs over the lands and peoples they conquered. This ideology is known formally as Arabisation. Arab identity and language, in much of the Arab world, is contrived upon and enforced by violence.

It is not simply a post-facto reference to 'places where people happen to speak Arabic'.
[tell another one. [Roll Eyes] ]

quote:
Terms like east asia in no way give the impression of a land of yellow people
This is specious analogy. A specious analogy occurs when two things are compared which appear to be superficially similar to make a point, in this case, about how they are treated differently.

When in fact the two things are very much unlike one another to begin with, rendering false the expectation that they should be regarded in the same manner.

'Yellow' people does not exist anywhere as and ethnonym, whereas Black is the most frquent color ethnonym used to describe peoples...in many languages, and in many cultures quite independant from one another.

Meanwhile color in general carries no *distinction* as a politically constructed identity. Identity is just as political whether you use color as and identity construct or not.

As for "East Asian", most Asians don't discribe themselves as "East" Asians, but rather just as "Asians".

Meanwhile peoples of SouthWest Asia, dont' describe themselves as Asians *at all*, but rather Arabs, Indians, Muslim, Iranians, and Jews.

So how is East Asia fundamentally "better" as and identity construct than Black African?

Far *West Asians*, would based on geography actually equate to white Europeans who seldom ever refer to themselves as *west* asians.

So I can't imagine having *less* of a point than you appear to.

Can you explain *your point* again?

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rasol
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quote:
rasol wrote:
The term Arab World is a politically charged, imperialistic *claim*, by Arabs over the lands and peoples they conquered. This ideology is known formally as Arabisation. Arab identity and language, in much of the Arab world, is contrived upon and enforced by violence.

It is not simply a post-facto reference to 'places where people speak Arabic'.

^ I guess one has to have patience to wade thru apolgia/fibs with detailed explanation of the obvious, in order to get discussants to address the truth.


Arabization is the *transformation* of an area into one that is a part of the Arab culture. It can also mean the replacement or displacement of a native population with Arabs.

quote:
Originally posted by Miguel Antunes:
But they would by claiming the countries in Asia where Arabs live. Well, there are minorities in some of those countries, yes. Like Kurds, Turkics, Assyrian, who wouldn't want the area they live in to be labeled Arab Asia. But then, Arabs never cared about them,
lol.

^ Exactly.

Take a good look at this map again....
 -

Notice how Palestine is -not- a part of the 'Arab World'? North Africa is the "Arab World". Palestine is not.

What does this teach you?

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Nuary32
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quote:
Lol. What nonsense.

The term Arab World is a politically charged, imperialistic *claim*, by Arabs over the lands and peoples they conquered. This ideology is known formally as Arabisation. Arab identity and language, in much of the Arab world, is contrived upon and enforced by violence.

It is not simply a post-facto reference to 'places where people speak Arabic'.

I was reffering to the term "arab".

quote:
This is specious analogy. A specious analogy occurs when two things are compared which appear to be superficially similar to make a point, in this case, about how they are treated differently.

When in fact the two things are very much unlike one another.

I see.

quote:
'Yellow' people does not exist anywhere as and ethnonym
It exists as a reference to people of east asian descent(or rather oriental peoples). "Black" loosely refers to people of african descent, yellow does the exact same, despite its rarity in the vocab of people. In fact, i didn't use "black" to denote ethnicity, but rather pigmentation.

legitimacy was of my least concern, akin to how people will use words that don't exists in the dictionary(that doesn't necessarily mean that its meaning is unknown).

quote:
whereas Black is the most frquent color ethnonym used to describe peoples...in many languages, and in many cultures quite independant from one another.
If black can be used as an ethnonym, what exempts yellow from that potential(this particular question has nothing to do with the subject matter btw)?

quote:
Meanwhile color in general carries no distinction as a politically constructed identity.
Exactly why "black africa" is an absurd term.

quote:
, most Asians don't discribe themselves as "East" Asians, but rather just as "Asians".
Yup, the same can also be said for black africans, who call themselves "african" rather than black african or sub saharan african.


quote:
And peoples of SouthWest Asia, dont' describe themselves as Asians at all, but rather Arabs, Indians, Afghans, Jews.

Meanwhile far West Asians actually call themsevles *Europeans* [Europe is Westernmost Asia], or whites, but almost never West Asians.

Indeed, which is why i remain firm on my ultimate point that a name should only denote geographic location rather than identity. There are numerous ethnic groups within "black africa" that don't need such an oversimplification of a word.

quote:
So I can't imagine having *less* of a point than you appear to.
Ignoring the superficial details regarding yellow as a nonexistant term, my point should be well understood...Regions/areas of a continent that imply a certain identity have no place, unless you plan on ignoring its aloof nature as a designation of location. My analogy was meant to reinforce my "point", therefore its independent of an anlogy. With that said, i fail to see why an analogy of mistakes irrelevant to the subject matter, renders it incoherent.

Although i was vaguely aware of your points before i typed the analogy, the least of my concern was to aknowledge its superficial flaws and discard the whole analogy altogether(as long as the analogy's intent is understood. <--- The context at which the analogy derives from should alone gurantee the point i was attempting to make.

The details, of course don't change the fact that black africa directly implies the people of origin inhabiting the area as dark skinned, wherelese east asia perfectly fulfills its intent with no inherent flaw...There's a reason why "yellow asia" doesn't exist. That same reason can be applied to why "black africa" shouldn't.

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rasol
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quote:
It exists as a reference to people of east asian descent(or rather oriental peoples).
lol. It is extremely rare to the point of being anecdotal.

If you disagree can you provide a list of nations that list 'yellow' as and ethnicity on their census?

Also, your substitution of 'oriental' is amusing given that many Asians find that term offensive.

Your analogy is utterly ridiculous, and you know it.

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rasol
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quote:
rasol writes: Meanwhile color in general carries no distinction as a politically constructed identity.
quote:
nur:
Exactly why "black africa" is an absurd term.

You miscomprehend as usual.

Color is not distinct from any other form of identity. All identity contructs are subjective and ultimately political. Black Africa is not demonstratively any more absurd than any other term.

Now address what was actually said, rather than what you wish were said.

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rasol
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quote:
Most Asians don't discribe themselves as "East" Asians, but rather just as "Asians".
quote:
nur:
Yup, the same can also be said for black africans, who call themselves "african" rather than black african or sub saharan african.

Hence East Asian is not demonstrated to be a qualitatively distinct/superior identity construct to Black African, which is what you were trying to imply.

This is why I stated that your contrast of East Asian [good] to Black African [bad] - is nonsensical and makes no point.

You still have not made any point.

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Nuary32
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quote:
It is extremely rare to the point of being anecdotal.
How so? Provided it is anecdotal, that doesn't negate the fact that it exists as a reference to people of east asian descent(as said above). I even aknoledged the word as being of used rather rarely, however that's probably due to the fact that its an awkward term(not to mention asian despite its broad characteristic seems preferable).

With that logic, the term "black" might as well carry the same attitude as a person's race is distinguished via casual observation of skin color.

quote:
if you disagree can you provide a list of nations that list 'yellow' as and ethnicity on their census?
You say that the term yellow is a ridiculous term which has no real merit as a classification scheme, correct? It is absolutely unnecessary for me to provide a census that has the category "yellow" when there are somewhat more reasonable methods of proving its existence as a reference to east asians:

Defenition of "yellow" that should be of note:
a. designating or pertaining to an Oriental person or Oriental peoples.

^ I am in now way argueing for its legitimacy as as a word worthy of being in a census(not even remotely so).

quote:
Also, your substitution of 'oriental' is amusing given that many Asians find that term offensive.
And? The wording has meaning, which is what counts after all. The word was never created for the intent of being offensive, as opposed to other words.

quote:
Your analogy is utterly ridiculous, and you know it. [/QB]
Due to what? Failing to adhere to irrelevent details, that in now way change its essential purpose?
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rasol
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rasol
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quote:
Your analogy is utterly ridiculous, and you know it.
quote:
Due to what? Failing to adhere to irrelevant details
No. Failure to grasp detail that would lend credence to and otherwise specious analogy.
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Nuary32
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quote:
You miscomprehend as usual.
What "usual" occurence are you speaking of? I rarely frequent the forum, for such a statements to even have any remote foundation. [Big Grin]

In other words...Misinterpreting text once, doesn't make it a "usual" occurence.

quote:
Color is not distinct from any other form of identity.
It clearly is, by the simple fact that a black man obviously implies an appearance along the lines of dark skin, whereelse a person of asian descent has absolutely no hint of phenotype dawned upon.

quote:
black Africa is not demonstratively any more absurd than any other term.
What other "term" are you speaking of?

quote:
Hence East Asian is not demonstrated to be a qualitatively distinct/superior identity construct to Black African, which is what you were trying to imply.
see former posts.

quote:
This is why I stated that your contrast of East Asian [good] to Black African [bad] - is nonsensical and makes no point.

You still have not made any point.

It wasn't a contrast to East asians and black africans, but rather a contrast to the name used to denote the particular area that those popoulations inhabit.
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Nuary32
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quote:
Apparently not for Asians who refuse to be called *East* Asians.
See post below.

quote:
But do tell us what this -intent- is, as you imagine it?
It denotes a geographic location...what other intent could it possibly have?

quote:
No. Failure to grasp detail that would lend credence to and otherwise specious analogy.
For whom? The extreme minority that took notice of the seemingly small mistake? Are you asking for the point i'm making, or for an analogy that gives credence to my point...?
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rasol
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quote:
Color is not distinct from any other form of identity. All identity contructs are subjective and ultimately political
quote:
It clearly is, by the simple fact that a black man obviously implies an appearance along the lines of dark skin
Black is phenotype. Phenotype is political and subjective.

quote:
whereeas person of asian descent has absolutely no hint of phenotype dawned upon.
Asian is geography, which is political and subjective.

Your bizzare position is *apparently*(?) that phenotype is invalid as and identity reference but geography is somehow valid.


But since both are subjective and political you have failed to explain how so.

So yes your argument is still ridiculous.

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rasol
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quote:
Nur: The extreme minority that took notice of the seemingly small mistake
Don't underestimate the rest of the forum, just because I called you on your mistake doesn't mean i'm the only one to notice.

quote:
Rasol: if you disagree can you provide a list of nations that list 'yellow' as and ethnicity on their census?
quote:
Nur: You say that the term yellow is a ridiculous term which has no real merit as a classification scheme, correct?
No. I didn't say that.

However, I did say your argument is ridiculous.

It's a big difference. One of those pesky details you tend to ignore while making nonsensical arguments.

Now. Reread my question, which simply asks you to establish the relevance of your argument... and then provide the requested answer.

It's simple. If you can't do so [and you haven't] your argument is based on specious analogy and so....ridiculous.

Understand?

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rasol
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quote:
nur: East Asin denotes a geographic location...
Is it and ethnicity then as you earlier implied or not?

What is the basis in geography from separating EAst Asia from Asia?

Note the relevance, as most Asians do not make such a separation in their self identity and so do not consider themselves East Asian.

You said that East Asian fullfills its function perfectly, but if you mean it only serves a geographic function and not as and ethnonym, then pray tell.....what is your basis for comparing it to Black African to begin with?

Specifically explain why East Asian is a perfect "ethnic" term?

And then explain why so many Asians reject it, in all its [according to you] perfection?

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Nuary32
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QB] [QUOTE]Color is not distinct from any other form of identity.

quote:
It clearly is, by the simple fact that a black man obviously implies an appearance along the lines of dark skin
quote:
Color is phenotype. Phenotype is political and subjective.
How does the said fact, change daily interpretation of the term "black" as a reference to skin color? It implies dark skin because it is interpreted as dark skin the minute it enters the ear of an individual. Once again, It's subjectivity doesn't change that.

quote:
Asian is geography, which is political and subjective.
Of couse it is, however as i said before an asian man, has no hint of phenotype dawned upon him, let alone the point you make that it's subjective one. It's the actual term my statements question, not necessarily the meaning/subjectivity the said term carries by defention.

quote:
Your position is effectively6 that phenotype is invalid as an identity reference but geography is somehow valid.
Incorrect, my position is actually the complete opposite...

quote:
But since both are subjective and political you have failed to explain how so.
see above.

quote:
So yes your argument is still ridiculous.
As far as i'm concerned, my "arguement" remains nitpicked rather than questioned, as you apprently misinterpreted my previous statements.
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rasol
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quote:
Rasol: Color is phenotype. Phenotype is political and subjective. Asia is geography which is political and subjective.
quote:
Nur: How does the said fact, change daily interpretation of the term "black" as a reference to skin color?
Why would it need to?
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Nuary32
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quote:
However, I did say your argument is ridiculous.
As witnessed by the numerous times i've seen it in your posts...

quote:
It's a big difference. One of those pesky details you tend to ignore while making nonsensical arguments.
How exactly does a "specious analogy" make my arguement nonsensical all of a sudden..? Is my analogy supposed to add "credence" or solidify my arguement to the point where it is no longer nonsensical? You've obviously begun to exagerate the implications of a "pesky detail".
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rasol
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quote:
rasol Asian is geography, which is political and subjective.
quote:
nur: Of couse it is, however as i said before an asian man, has no hint of phenotype dawned upon him
rasol: Asia is not a reference to phenotype, it is a reference to Geography.

quote:
nur: let alone the point you make that it's subjective one.
Gosh, you don't seem to understand even a single sentence. The point is that geographic reference is as subjective and political as phenotypic reference.
If you disagree then explain why?

At least show some signs of comprehension and address the point properly.

quote:
It's the actual term my statements question, not necessarily the meaning/subjectivity the said term carries by defention.
This is simply gibberish, meanwhile my question goes unanswered.

quote:
Incorrect, my position is actually the complete opposite...
Opposite of what? Coherence? Then yes, we agree.

Meanwhile, unanswered questions -
quote:


* What makes East Asia a perfect ethnic reference?

* If East Asia is not and -ethnic- construct, then what is the basis for comparing it to Black African?

* What is the -purely geographic- basis for separating East Asia from Asia?

* If the term is so perfect, why do so many Asians then reject the term -East- Asian?

* Specifically how is East Asian as a geography any less political or subjective than Black African?

* If it is not less poltical, or less subjective, then how can it be perfect while Black African is [bad]?


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Nuary32
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quote:
Why would it need to?
It doesn't, and will not, which is precisely why it's irrelevant to the prior statement you originally adressed.
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rasol
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^ More incoherence from you.,

Here is the question for the last time....
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Rasol: Color is phenotype. Phenotype is political and subjective. Asia is geography which is political and subjective.

Why is geography superior to phenotype as and ethnic identity construct?

Maybe you refuse to answer this question, because you really have no idea?


The question goes out to anyone, since Nur can't answer it.

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Nuary32
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quote:
Asia is not a reference to phenotype, it is a reference to Geography.
As you specified before Rasol, i'm as well reffering to east asians when i say "asian man". I thought we had that established.

quote:
let alone the point you make that it's subjective one.[QUOTE]Gosh, you don't seem to understand even single sentence. The point is that geographic reference is as a subjective and political as phenotypic reference.
See above.

quote:
This is simply gibberish, meanwhile my question goes unanswered.
It's gibberish, because you took it out of its proper context.

quote:
Opposite of what? Coherence? Then yes, we agree.
Wrong, you know full and well what i mean, and as a result your questions have no real relevancy to my true *arguement*. They're ultimately trivial questions that exists for the purpose of digressing from the subject manner.


*
quote:
What makes East Asia a perfect ethnic reference?
Never even implied such.

*
quote:
If East Asia is not and -ethnic- construct, then what is the basis for comparing it to Black African?
There is no real basis, which is why "black africa" is a flawed term. I'm not speaking of the term black african, but the actual name used to denote an the area that is apparently inhabited by blacks. I clarified this quite a while ago.

*
quote:
What is the basis for separating East Asia from Asia?
The same basis for separating southern europe from northern europe. It obviously doesn't do so in a manner that integrates race into geographic boundaries.

*
quote:
If the term is so perfecxt, why do so many Asians then reject the term -East- Asian?
It's perfect as a reference to geographic location(as in east of asia). Nothing else...i don't even recall saying something that would imply such..

*
quote:
Specifically how is East Asian as a poltical geography any less political or subjective than Black African?
No one's argueing over the subjectivity of the said terms. Also, what exactly do you mean by less political?
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rasol
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quote:
rasol:What makes East Asia a perfect ethnic reference?
quote:
nur:Never even implied such.
^ tsk tsk, at your small fib - you did state the term was perfect, and compared it to Black African, which *is* and ethnic reference,but if you want to backtrack, then fine, it leads to....

quote:
If East Asia is not and -ethnic- construct, then what is the basis for comparing it to Black African?
quote:
There is no real basis
If you admit there is no basis for analogy then you admit the analogy is specious, and never should have been made, which means you have no point and we are back where we started.
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Nuary32
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quote:
Here is the question for the last time....
quote:
Color is phenotype. Phenotype is political and subjective. Asia is geography which is political and subjective.
Sorry, i had no idea your assertion was an actual question.


quote:
Why is geography superior to phenotype as and ethnic identity construct?
When did i say that? Are you aware that I'm strictly speaking in terms of geography...In no way did i ever bring ethnicity into the equation. In fact, please quote where i've said such statements and i'll be more than happy to clarify.

quote:
Maybe you refuse to answer this question, because you really have no idea?
No, but because i didn't know it was a question.
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rasol
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quote:
rasol: What is the basis for separating East Asia from Asia?
quote:
nur:The same basis for separating southern europe from northern europe
Which is?

quote:
It's perfect as a reference to geographic location(as in east of asia).
Yet you can't explain the basis of it's distinction from Asia. Where does East Asia begin, and why, according to whom?

quote:
Nur: It obviously doesn't do so in a manner that integrates race into geographic boundaries.
lol. Sure. Nordic Aryan vs. Southern Medit European racialists can attest to this I suppose. And what is the basis of the separation between so called Europe which is really West Asia, and Asia if not ethnic?


quote:
nur: In no way did i ever bring ethnicity into the equation.
Now that is a flat out lie. You did this when you attempted to analogise Black to Yellow as comparable ethnic constructs. Remember? Bad arguments do tend to suffer from amnesia.


quote:
rasol: Specifically how is East Asian as a poltical geography any less political or subjective than Black African?
quote:
nur: No one's argueing over the subjectivity of the said terms.
translation: You admit that East Asia is every bit as political and subjective as Black Africa.

This leaves us with the final question in the list which you chose not to answer.

quote:
rasol: If it is not less poltical, or less subjective, then how can it be perfect [your words] while Black African is [bad]?
??? ^ Take your time. It appears I have to ask every question 3 times in order to get you to address them...but I'm a patient man. [Smile]
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Nuary32
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quote:
^ tsk tsk, at your small fib - you did state the term was perfect, and compared it to the Black African, which is and ethnic reference,but if you want to backtrack, then fine, it leads to....
Quote me, i'd love to clarify.

quote:
If you admit there is no basis for analogy then you admit the analogy is specious, and never should have been made, which means you have no point and we are back where we started.
You took my statement out of context again.

quote:
translation: You admit that East Asia is every bit as political and subjective as Black Africa.

This leaves us with the final question in the list which you chose not to answer:

"noone's argueing such" as in it's irrelevant.

quote:
If it is not less poltical, or less subjective, then how can it be perfect [your words] while Black African is [bad]?
What do you mean by "less political". See post above.

quote:
??? ^ Take your time. It appears I have to ask every question 3 times in order to get you to address them...but I'm a patient man.
See post above, it takes 3 times as much clarifying(although that seems to have made no distinguishable progress).

quote:
lol. Sure. Nordic Aryan vs. Southern Medit European racialists can attest to this I suppose.
One's located up north, the other south. Need i say more?
quote:
And what is the basis of the separation between so called Europe which is really West Asia, and Asis if not ethnic?
See post above, it's ridiculously obvious. If it's not based on location what else is it based on?

quote:
Now that is a flat out lie. You did this when you attempted to analogise Black to Yellow as comparable ethnic constructs. Remember? Bad arguments do tend to suffer from amnesia.
What relevant conclusion can you derive such, besides the fact that i lied? In no way does that put geography in a superior position to indicate race.
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rasol
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quote:
If you admit there is no basis for analogy then you admit the analogy is specious, and never should have been made, which means you have no point and we are back where we started.
quote:

You took my statement out of context again.

Or you are backtracking because your statements are incoherent.

If not feel free to re-contextualise them.

No one's stopping you.

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rasol
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quote:
translation: You admit that East Asia is every bit as political and subjective as Black Africa.
quote:
"noone's argueing such"
This has been my position from the start.

If you are not arguing with it then you concede it, and the conversation is over.

All you've done by way of disputation is wriggle and writhe like a hooked worm.

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:

^ More incoherence from you.,

Here is the question for the last time....
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Rasol: Color is phenotype. Phenotype is political and subjective. Asia is geography which is political and subjective.

Why is geography superior to phenotype as and ethnic identity construct?

Maybe you refuse to answer this question, because you really have no idea?


The question goes out to anyone, since Nur can't answer it.

Neither geography or phenotypic labels has primacy in ethnic identification...well, because "ethnic" identification are by and large 'identifiers' used by a society, and cultures vary from society to society. This makes ethnic 'identifiers' subjective social constructs.

Phenotype is biological. It can be assessed objectively in a biological sense, but can also be described subjectively by diverse people across the globe, according to their respective socio-cultural constructs.

Geographical designations can also be assessed objectively in a geographic sense, but names of continents and regions have also been known to be subjective political constructs as opposed to geographical reality. Case in point, the artificial separation of Europe from the rest of Asian continent and regional appellation of "Middle East" which is not a reference to an actual continent.

 -

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rasol
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^ Correct.
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Nuary32
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quote:
This has been my position from the start.
There was more to that statement.


quote:
If not feel free to re-contextualise them.

No one's stopping you.

You can easily do that by simply reading past the comma, rather than the statement that while placed in the wrong context, adheres to your statements.

quote:
All you've done by way of disputation is wriggle and writhe like a hooked worm.
Dispute what? We've totally gone off topic from the originial arguement(i.e. my assertion). In fact, i clarified prior to this digressing frenzy that your questions are aimed at the wrong viewpoints due to your misinterpretation.
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Mystery Solver
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Question:

How many people here, who find "black Africans" offensive, will agree with the term "tropical Africans"?

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Whatbox
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^Though there are no discrepencies here with "black african", to comment on tropical african: mo problem here.

In fact I find it highly accurate.

Same with indigenous african.

I don't care to what extant you hear yellow asian, and I've heard "of white european descent" - these clarify where any doubt may have been.

As long as it's used to clarify - used as purely descriptive - and not to imply that blacks are some how alien to a geography they are not, or otherwise falsely than there's no problem.

And hence^, I don't feel it always necissary to add 'black' to african at all and if a persone opts that an entity/group/person were not, and they were, then you can clarify.

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Mystery Solver
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I agree with the general idea of simply referring to 'indigenous' Africans as "Africans", but I can also understand why "black Africans" would keep cropping up in both ancient north African and north African/sub-Saharan African 'dichotomy' discourse.
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