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Djehuti
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^ There are Greek references to peoples in the North African coasts besides the Maure like 'Leuco-Ethiopes' and 'Melano-Gaetules'. I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception the same way the White Ethiopes are an exception. Perhaps these Gaetules may represent some early European influence in the region.

What about my questions about Tuareg lineage and genealogy as well as your proposed connection between Tuareg and Hyksos?

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Djehuti
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quote:
Evergreen wrote:

Indigenous Europeans with melanin-level variation as late as the Bronze Age.

 -

But can these Minoans above really be called 'indigenous Europeans'? We know that Crete was settled mainly by Africans and Asiatics from Anatolia. As such I doubt any Minoan can truly represent indigenous Europeans.
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

 -
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint

 -
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"

 -
"Philistine" with faded paint

 -
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg


And why does the Phillistine below WITHOUT THE PAINT COMING OFF on the tomb of Medinet Habu show that they were actually a dark brown color.

 -



I have been looking a long time for depictions of dark/black Libyans with traces of paint still left and to be honest this is the first time I've ever seen it, at least close-up! Now that I look at it, the facial profiles of these Lebou particularly in the nose remind me of Tuareg. I've heard many try to compare the noses to those of Fulani types like the Wodaabe but the high bridge and short tip are more like Tuareg, as is the wavy hair and fuller beards. Such facial features and hair also hark back to those Tjehenu depicted in Old Kingdom reliefs as well as depictions of early Delta peoples from proto-dynastic times including the Narmer Palette which might lend credence to the theory of Delta Egyptians having Libyan ancestry. Though one main difference between these New Kingdom Lebu and the Old Kingdom Tjhenu is in dress. From the few examples I've seen, the Tjehenu both males and females wore shirt skirts or loincloths and were topless except cross-bandaliers which they wore on their chests. In fact the long draped tunics of the Lebu remind me more of Canaanite/Levantine types than anything else. As for your claims on the Philistines, this reminds me that according to Hebrew writings there were two main groups of Philistines with the earlier group said to be descended from Casluhim which was offspring of Mizraim (Egypt) and that the Caphtorim (Cretans/Minoans) are also descended from Mizraim. It's probable that these people represent early sea-faring groups from Africa as opposed to the later Sea Peoples of Anatolia and Europe which included the later Philistines. Such is another topic I would like to discuss next time.
I am not aware of any recent studies connecting the Lebou with Canaanites, but i have heard that some archeologists or are connecting them with the Israelites. I think your assesment of the Tuareg appearance of the Lebou of the Ramessid period and of the latter with Canaanites is very insightful and probably correct. It would fit in the Tuareg claim of Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. Personally it is my belief that like the Philistines, the later dark-skinned Lebou the Ramesid period represent people of Canaanite origin. The former however may have settled in the Aegean like the Tjeker and come in with the fairer skinned Sea People.

I don't know about two Philistine groups. I know that people say that these Philistines from Medinet Habu are attired in Aegean wear. I also know that the Hebrews make them descendants of the Keftiu. I don't identify Crete as the sole habitat of the Keftiu or Caphturim as you say. According to Near Eastern scholars the name Keftiu may have referred to the Aegean coasts in general.

William Hallo and William Simpson for example wrote the name is "generally held to designate Crete and perhaps the Aegean coasts as well". They point out that the name Keftiu is associated with the name Kizzuwatna for the Cilician coast which was also called Keti by the Egyptians. The name is also supposed to be a variant of Katpatuka (Cappadocia) of Syria/Anatolia and the the name Kaphturim are associated with the Casluhet who settled in or near Pelusium near Egypt.
I believe the Musuri or Masrah of the Syro-Arabian area were a remnant of those "black Syrians" from whom had come the Kasluhim and Kafturim (Kethu or Kizzuwat), Lebou or Lehabim and Philistines or Peleset. In Hebrew texts the last 4 came from the Mitzraim which was the name of a tribe in the Levant which should not be confused with the region called Egypt today. They were all descended from one people who settled Syria and other places in the Mediterranean and Aegean during the Hyksos period. i learned from the ANE forum a long time ago that the Musri were called Meluhha while the Arabians and Hebrews called them the Amlukh or Amalekites.

As I mentioned previously these Qeti or Kethwat or Keftiu must be the Khethim of Josephus whom he claimed had colonized the Cyprus and the Mediterranean under Cethimus. The latter is most likely "Cathim the Amalekite" ruler of Arabian tradition.

Thus, we find peoples named Khetim, Maketa, Ketama all over the ancient Mediterranean and Aegean, and north Africa whom are undoubtedly the "Ethiopians" who Greek tradition once said to have to the mountain of Atlas (Daris).


After some time in control of Egypt these Kethim or Misraim must have been pushed westward. At some point in time one group of them must have intermingled with Sea People or some other white Mediterranean population. This is most probably why there as least one figure that is sometimes said to be either Hittite and Libyan.


As as early as the Old Kingdom early peoples of the delta and Fayum were supposedly trading through Memphis with the Sinai and Levant, and in my mind these people were related. The neolithic peoples of the Levant (Tahun of Jordan, Jericho, Neolithic B in Palestine) and Fayum were connected probably biologically or "genetically" as well. These same peoples show links to Chatal Huyuk. It may be in this way that the semitic dialects first entered the Levant.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ There are Greek references to peoples in the North African coasts besides the Maure like 'Leuco-Ethiopes' and 'Melano-Gaetules'. I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception the same way the White Ethiopes are an exception. Perhaps these Gaetules may represent some early European influence in the region.

What about my questions about Tuareg lineage and genealogy as well as your proposed connection between Tuareg and Hyksos?

I have been trying to catch up with your questions.

I have just finished answering your question about the Tuareg and Hyksos, now before you ask again, here is the second part.

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dana marniche
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“Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board.” Lacus Curtius Strabo book I Chapter 2

“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6

The Tuareg though matrilineal and matrifocal were not necessarily always matriarchal. They have always been ruled by mostly male chiefs called Galidi, hence the name "Gildo" and Aguellid in the North African area. From what I can tell most of these "Galidi" were men. Some have even related the term to the Goliath of the Bible. Others have found in the term a possible link to Acalle - the daughter of Minos in mythology or "Alyattes" in the Aegean.

Anyway, I don't think this ancestry of kings was given to the Tuareg who still claim a "Phoenician" descent and Yemenite origins.

The tradition is apparently Berber and the Shluhs have the same tradition as the Tuareg apparently. “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Difusion of Useful Knowledge 1835

The Shluh of the Upper Atlas incidently ar the Berbers who often prefix their name with the word "Ait" or "Ad" like certain Tuareg and Bedja.

There have always been a tradition of two waves of the Berbers into Africa one represented by the Imazuragh or Banu Mazurah (Mizraim) branch of the Tuareg branch and the other by the Shluh and the Iforas (Afar), Banu Salih and other Zenata who claim descent from the Canaanite Mazikh and whose ancestry appears to be identifiable with the Hyksos rulers represented in Egyptian sources and at the same time "Amalekite" chiefs also known as "Ad" in Arabian genealogy stretching from Yemen to Mecca in the time of Joshua and the breaking of the Marib dam.

The other group or Philistines were said to have left their land later in the time of David.

This is what I have been proposing to people on this forum since I've been on it. I will have to speak of the Gaetuli (Joddala)later.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]....Crete was settled mainly by Africans....

Evergreen Writes:

We should probably start a new thread if you want to do a deep dive on this, but there is little to no evidence to support your claim.

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alTakruri
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There were no white Gaetuli.

Will check into it further but Ptolemy while
mentioning Gaetulia only gives notice of
MelanoGaetuli. He does not know any other
people simply called Gaetuli or who have
Gaetuli in their name.

I take it that MelanoGaetuli and Gaetuli are
one and the same people unless there is an
ancient accounnt that specifically lists the
two of them.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception ...


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This map, which one can save and zoom, may
be helpful in locating the places and people in
Ptolemy Book 4 Chapter 6 (Interior Libya).

It will help in visualizing which peoples and
places are littoral, further inland, or near the
desert and which areas were considered as
Libyan and which areas Ethiopian.

If replying to this post please leave out the
map or else it will take too much scrolling to
navigate this page. Sorry, this is the lowest
resolution that will allow clear zooms.

 -

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ There are Greek references to peoples in the North African coasts besides the Maure like 'Leuco-Ethiopes' and 'Melano-Gaetules'. I don't know who the Gaetules were, but I assume they are usually white as the 'Melano' (Black) ones seem to be the exception the same way the White Ethiopes are an exception. Perhaps these Gaetules may represent some early European influence in the region.

What about my questions about Tuareg lineage and genealogy as well as your proposed connection between Tuareg and Hyksos?

The word Melanogaetuli is used by Ptolemy for the ancient Berber inhabitants of the Wedh Regh or the province of Constantine. They are next to the Pharusii and are called Nigritae by other writers.

If there were Gaetuli or Mauri, other than black ones there should be some ancient reference to them. While we do read about LeucoEthiops we don't read about LeucoGetuli. Instead we find Procopius stating that the Gaitules were ancestors to the Masaesyles and other Mauri trained in Numidia, and earlier Juvenal refers to the Gaetuli as "a Mauri" "so black you'd rather not run into him at midnight."

Josephus makes the Gaetuli the kinsmen of the "Judadaeans a nation of western Ethiopians" and the Astoborans or peoples of the blue Nile or river Astaboras. Josephus Antiquites, Chapter 6.

So it is apparent the Gaetuli whom were the largest of "Libyan" tribes were quite black or any case "Abyssinian" in appearance.
Does Ptolemy speak of other types of Gaetuli?

Juvenal in fact uses the phrase "nigri Mauri". That doesn't mean some of the Mauri were not black. In the 2nd and 3rd century other individuals like Silicius Italicus say the word "Mauri" was in Greek a synonym for "Niger" and later St. Isidore of the 6th century says similarly, adding the "Mauri" meant blackness and states "the Mauri" were "black as night". (see Book XIXxxiii7 The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386) Later a much quoted Viking epic states "Mauri is the same as Negro" and "Mauritania is Negro-land". This is not exageration. This is why later on Berbers along the coasts are designated "blacks" in Arab writings instead of by Arab words that would mean light or medium brown or colored in the West. This is why Ibn Butlan before the 11th c. calls the women from the major Berber tribes of the coast of North Africa "black" instead of golden colored like the Beja who are are more like the modern inhabitants of the Wed Regh.


Maures and Getules are otherwise only described as people were the "reddish" black color of the tribes of "Indi" in Africa stretching to Oman and the Indus whom in the time of Eustathius and Philostorgius claim included the Axumitae, Adulitae (people of Adulis) or Abyssinians, Taieni (Tayyi) and Homeritae (Himyarites), Buga (Begawi) and other obviously "Ethiopic" people. Those are 5 of the 9 nations of the Indi listed by Eustathius.

Contrary to what some people have tried to promote, in the time of the Romans the word Mauri referred only to "the black person" and as Martial said a man "with woolly hair".

The phrase "Erembi Nigri" is used for the Erembi near Gades in the Iberian peninsula that doesn't mean there were Erembi that were not black. As Snowden rightly states "Mauri" was at times used by Romans as a synonym for "Ethiopian".


The word Mauri is used with numerous tribes in Numidia and Mauritania. The word Mauri also did not mean Mauritanian. We have the Mauri Mazikes, Mauri Bavares or Babars, Mauri Baqautes and Mauri Mazikes and Mauri Gensani. While other tribes living in Mauretania - Armeni, Phrygi, Vandali etc. are not prefixed by the word Mauri.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

I am not aware of any recent studies connecting the Lebou with Canaanites, but i have heard that some archeologists are connecting them with the Israelites. I think your assesment of the Tuareg appearance of the Lebou of the Ramessid period and of the latter with Canaanites is very insightful and probably correct. It would fit in the Tuareg claim of Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. Personally it is my belief that like the Philistines, the later dark-skinned Lebou the Ramesid period represent people of Canaanite origin. The former however may have settled in the Aegean like the Tjeker and come in with the fairer skinned Sea People.

The studies I speak of that connect Libyans with Canaanites are not recent but old. The connection in particular is not that Libyans are of Canaanite descent but that both Libyans and Canaanites share a common ancestry via the Egyptian delta. One source that I specifically remember is a book on Minoan and early Aegean civilization in which the author cites early emigration to Crete from Africa from neolithic to early Bronze Age times. He even calls the Bronze Age emigration a kind of exodus perhaps due to political upheaval of Egypt's unification under Narmer where refugees were displaced both to the west of the Delta in Libya as well as east to the Levant. We know that there is strong evidence both archaeologically as well as genetically that proto-Semtic entered Southwest Asia through the Levant which correlates with such migrations from the Egypt's Delta. Hopefully I can get my hands on that book on Minoan civilization, so I can post that info.

quote:
I don't know about two Philistine groups. I know that people say that these Philistines from Medinet Habu are attired in Aegean wear. I also know that the Hebrews make them descendants of the Keftiu. I don't identify Crete as the sole habitat of the Keftiu or Caphturim as you say. According to Near Eastern scholars the name Keftiu may have referred to the Aegean coasts in general.
Archaeologists identify two main groups historically called 'Philistines' with an earlier little known Bronze Age group and a later Iron Age group that is definitively identified as Aegean and was the very group the Isrealites waged war on.

quote:
William Hallo and William Simpson for example wrote the name is "generally held to designate Crete and perhaps the Aegean coasts as well". They point out that the name Keftiu is associated with the name Kizzuwatna for the Cilician coast which was also called Keti by the Egyptians. The name is also supposed to be a variant of Katpatuka (Cappadocia) of Syria/Anatolia and the the name Kaphturim are associated with the Casluhet who settled in or near Pelusium near Egypt.
Identifying ancient peoples based on the names of one language is hard enough, but going through all these transliterations and other names that may or may not be related I find to be a mess. All I know that Israelite records say Philistim is descendant of Casluhim and both Casluhim and Caphtorim are sons of Mizraim. The name 'Casluhim' looks most like the Casluhet. And in my opinion Kapthorim looks most like Egyptian Keftiu. If this folk tradition is true, then these peoples have their origins in Egypt.

quote:
I believe the Musuri or Masrah of the Syro-Arabian area were a remnant of those "black Syrians" from whom had come the Kasluhim and Kafturim (Kethu or Kizzuwat), Lebou or Lehabim and Philistines or Peleset. In Hebrew texts the last 4 came from the Mitzraim which was the name of a tribe in the Levant which should not be confused with the region called Egypt today. They were all descended from one people who settled Syria and other places in the Mediterranean and Aegean during the Hyksos period. i learned from the ANE forum a long time ago that the Musri were called Meluhha while the Arabians and Hebrews called them the Amlukh or Amalekites.
If you identify Mizraim with a Levantine people instead of Egypt, this where I get confused since I'm so used to associating the name with Egypt. I take it then, that Biblical Cush in this case would be Arabian instead of the African Kush. Canaan is still Levantine, so what about 'Phut'?

quote:
As I mentioned previously these Qeti or Kethwat or Keftiu must be the Khethim of Josephus whom he claimed had colonized the Cyprus and the Mediterranean under Cethimus. The latter is most likely "Cathim the Amalekite" ruler of Arabian tradition.

Thus, we find peoples named Khetim, Maketa, Ketama all over the ancient Mediterranean and Aegean, and north Africa whom are undoubtedly the "Ethiopians" who Greek tradition once said to have to the mountain of Atlas (Daris).

It's tempting, but can one possibly connect this 'Cethimus' to the Cadmus of Greek legends who supposedly founded the city-state of Thebes and introduced the alphabet to Greece? According to Greek lore Cadmus was a Phoenician prince and we know that Phoenicia or ancient Canaan was also known to the Greeks as 'Aethiopia'. In the same Argive legends, Cadmus's father Agenor is the founder of Aethiopia just as his brother Belus is founder of Egypt and both are sons are Libya (Africa) by Poseidon.

quote:
After some time in control of Egypt these Kethim or Misraim must have been pushed westward. At some point in time one group of them must have intermingled with Sea People or some other white Mediterranean population. This is most probably why there as least one figure that is sometimes said to be either Hittite and Libyan.
Control of Egypt when? Are you identifying them with the Hyksos?

quote:
As as early as the Old Kingdom early peoples of the delta and Fayum were supposedly trading through Memphis with the Sinai and Levant, and in my mind these people were related. The neolithic peoples of the Levant (Tahun of Jordan, Jericho, Neolithic B in Palestine) and Fayum were connected probably biologically or "genetically" as well. These same peoples show links to Chatal Huyuk. It may be in this way that the semitic dialects first entered the Levant.
Of course. We've discussed how Semitic languages were introduced to Southwest Asia via the Levant along with African lineages plenty of times.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

I have been trying to catch up with your questions.

I have just finished answering your question about the Tuareg and Hyksos, now before you ask again, here is the second part.

Sorry. I forget it takes longer than I thought to respond.
quote:
“Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board.” Lacus Curtius Strabo book I Chapter 2

“The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. “ Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6

The Tuareg though matrilineal and matrifocal were not necessarily always matriarchal. They have always been ruled by mostly male chiefs called Galidi, hence the name "Gildo" and Aguellid in the North African area. From what I can tell most of these "Galidi" were men. Some have even related the term to the Goliath of the Bible. Others have found in the term a possible link to Acalle - the daughter of Minos in mythology or "Alyattes" in the Aegean.

Anyway, I don't think this ancestry of kings was given to the Tuareg who still claim a "Phoenician" descent and Yemenite origins.

The tradition is apparently Berber and the Shluhs have the same tradition as the Tuareg apparently. “The Shellooh, it must be observed are a clans people and great genealogists. They call themselves, the descendants of Mazigh, son of Canaan, and consider their northern neighbours, the Brebber of Fez, as Philistines, descendants of Casluhim, son of Mizraim. Ibn Khaldun says of the Berbers in general that they are descended from ham, like the ancient Egyptians. “ p. 263 Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Difusion of Useful Knowledge 1835

The Shluh of the Upper Atlas incidently are the Berbers who often prefix their name with the word "Ait" or "Ad" like certain Tuareg and Bedja.

There have always been a tradition of two waves of the Berbers into Africa one represented by the Imazuragh or Banu Mazurah (Mizraim) branch of the Tuareg branch and the other by the Shluh and the Iforas (Afar), Banu Salih and other Zenata who claim descent from the Canaanite Mazikh and whose ancestry appears to be identifiable with the Hyksos rulers represented in Egyptian sources and at the same time "Amalekite" chiefs also known as "Ad" in Arabian genealogy stretching from Yemen to Mecca in the time of Joshua and the breaking of the Marib dam.

The other group or Philistines were said to have left their land later in the time of David.

This is what I have been proposing to people on this forum since I've been on it. I will have to speak of the Gaetuli (Joddala)later.

I see now. So this patrilineage is applied to the chieftains of the Tuareg. I don't doubt that such lineages are traditional among the Tuareg or other Berber people especially when it is traced back to the eponymous 'Mazigh' but further on when the lineage is traced to Biblical or Arab ancestors of Yemeni origin, I can't help but to attribute this to Islamic influence. I'm very weary of Muslim or even Jewish African peoples who trace their ancestry to Southwest Asia.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


 -
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"

Actually, each of the three enemies that Ramses has in his grasp represents a different people. The darkest one on the left being Kushite, the one in the middle being Asiatic, and the one on the right presumably Libyan. Many Eurocentrics love to use this picture as proof that Ramses and the Egyptians weren't black because he seemingly has the same color as the Asiatic, but upon closer inspection one can find traces of darker brown paint especially around his arm and face.

 -

The enemy on the right is the only one out of the three whose face is full frontal. If only someone could get a better zoom in look.

quote:
 -
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint

Yes, I can see especially on the faces traces of dark brown paint just like that found on Ramses.

Again, the faces and hair remind me of not only the Tuareg but other modern Saharan people like the man in the photo below that Takruri first posted.

 -

The blue colored clothing of the Lebou also remind me of the Tuareg. In fact I remember Wally suggesting that either the Egyptian word Tehenu or Lebou meant something like 'bright' or 'dazzling' in a way like the blue stone lapis-lazuli.

quote:
 -
Notice the brown paint faded from this "Libyan's" back leg

Yes, and I also notice the cross bandouliers he wears on his chest like earlier Tehenu such as these reproduced engravings of Tehenu fist posted by Cotonou.

 -
 -

You can see more on Libyans in this thread here.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:

We should probably start a new thread if you want to do a deep dive on this, but there is little to no evidence to support your claim.

Fine, we can either continue this issue here on the various other threads on Greek and Aegean origins. But I am surprised by your comment about my claim on Minoan origins. I thought you yourself contributed evidence of the African and Asiatic origins Cretans before any actual Europeans. [Confused]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

There were no white Gaetuli.

Will check into it further but Ptolemy while
mentioning Gaetulia only gives notice of
MelanoGaetuli. He does not know any other
people simply called Gaetuli or who have
Gaetuli in their name.

I take it that MelanoGaetuli and Gaetuli are
one and the same people unless there is an
ancient account that specifically lists the
two of them.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The word Melanogaetuli is used by Ptolemy for the ancient Berber inhabitants of the Wedh Regh or the province of Constantine. They are next to the Pharusii and are called Nigritae by other writers.

If there were Gaetuli or Mauri, other than black ones there should be some ancient reference to them. While we do read about LeucoEthiops we don't read about LeucoGetuli. Instead we find Procopius stating that the Gaitules were ancestors to the Masaesyles and other Mauri trained in Numidia, and earlier Juvenal refers to the Gaetuli as "a Mauri" "so black you'd rather not run into him at midnight."

Josephus makes the Gaetuli the kinsmen of the "Judadaeans a nation of western Ethiopians" and the Astoborans or peoples of the blue Nile or river Astaboras. Josephus Antiquites, Chapter 6.

So it is apparent the Gaetuli whom were the largest of "Libyan" tribes were quite black or any case "Abyssinian" in appearance.
Does Ptolemy speak of other types of Gaetuli?

Juvenal in fact uses the phrase "nigri Mauri". That doesn't mean some of the Mauri were not black. In the 2nd and 3rd century other individuals like Silicius Italicus say the word "Mauri" was in Greek a synonym for "Niger" and later St. Isidore of the 6th century says similarly, adding the "Mauri" meant blackness and states "the Mauri" were "black as night". (see Book XIXxxiii7 The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386) Later a much quoted Viking epic states "Mauri is the same as Negro" and "Mauritania is Negro-land". This is not exageration. This is why later on Berbers along the coasts are designated "blacks" in Arab writings instead of by Arab words that would mean light or medium brown or colored in the West. This is why Ibn Butlan before the 11th c. calls the women from the major Berber tribes of the coast of North Africa "black" instead of golden colored like the Beja who are are more like the modern inhabitants of the Wed Regh.

Maures and Getules are otherwise only described as people were the "reddish" black color of the tribes of "Indi" in Africa stretching to Oman and the Indus whom in the time of Eustathius and Philostorgius claim included the Axumitae, Adulitae (people of Adulis) or Abyssinians, Taieni (Tayyi) and Homeritae (Himyarites), Buga (Begawi) and other obviously "Ethiopic" people. Those are 5 of the 9 nations of the Indi listed by Eustathius.

Contrary to what some people have tried to promote, in the time of the Romans the word Mauri referred only to "the black person" and as Martial said a man "with woolly hair".

The phrase "Erembi Nigri" is used for the Erembi near Gades in the Iberian peninsula that doesn't mean there were Erembi that were not black. As Snowden rightly states "Mauri" was at times used by Romans as a synonym for "Ethiopian".

The word Mauri is used with numerous tribes in Numidia and Mauritania. The word Mauri also did not mean Mauritanian. We have the Mauri Mazikes, Mauri Bavares or Babars, Mauri Baqautes and Mauri Mazikes and Mauri Gensani. While other tribes living in Mauretania - Armeni, Phrygi, Vandali etc. are not prefixed by the word Mauri.

I see. So 'Melano' was merely used as a prefix of emphasis to drive the point that these people were black the same way other tribes had the prefix 'Mauri' added to their names. And it is the Gaetuli who were also called 'Nigritai'. I thought it was the Garamantes who were called this. I wish an ancient map showing all these North African peoples west of Egypt were posted here...

Nevermind, I just realized the map Takruri posted has all the peoples and their territories listed; the letters are just too small for me to read clearly!

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri:
[qb]
I see. So 'Melano' was merely used as a prefix of emphasis to drive the point that these people were black the same way other tribes had the prefix 'Mauri' added to their names. And it is the Gaetuli who were also called 'Nigritai'. I thought it was the Garamantes who were called this. I wish an ancient map showing all these North African peoples west of Egypt were posted here...

Nevermind, I just realized the map Takruri posted has all the peoples and their territories listed; the letters are just too small for me to read clearly!

The word "Nigritai" comes from an Afro-Asiatic word for river and probably refers to the Wedh Draa area. The early Berbers of the Wed Regh and Wed Draa are the Darae Getuli of the ancient writers. Richmond Palmer also related the word to the word Taurud. I also had posted the below previously.

"Among the Gaetules were a tribe Dari or Darae Gaetuli, there was also a stream called Daradae Ethiopus-i- '(DARAE were a Gaetulian tribe in the W. of Africa, on a mountain stream called Dara, on the S. steppes of M. Atlas, adjacent to the Pharusii. (Plin. V. 1: Oros. i. 2: Leo Afr. P. 602.)'"

The Draa (Arabic: درأ) (also spelled Dra or Draâ, in older sources mostly Darha or Dara) is Morocco's longest river (1100 km). 'The inhabitants of the Draa are called Draawa (an exonym), the most famous Draawi undoubtedly being mawlay Mohammed ash-Sheikh. Outside of the Draa region this name is mostly used to refer to the dark skinned people of Draa which make up the largest portion of its inhabitants.' Retrieved May 13th 2008 from
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Draa-river
"

The reason the word Nigri or Niger came to be identified blackness is due the the appearance of these Berber peoples.

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


 -
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"

Actually, each of the three enemies that Ramses has in his grasp represents a different people. The darkest one on the left being Kushite...


What is your proof that these are three different peoples and if that is so why do they all have the same hairstyle. It looks to me as if one man just could hav faded more than the others.

The so-called Asiatic is the same color as Ramses. If the paint has been faded on Ramses (which it was) than the paint on the "Asiatic" and other person was also probably originally darker.

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


[
[QUOTE][qb]  -
Another Lebou rendition photo with faded paint

Yes, I can see especially on the faces traces of dark brown paint just like that found on Ramses.

Again, the faces and hair remind me of not only the Tuareg but other modern Saharan people like the man in the photo below that Takruri first posted.

 -


The resemblance in profiles between men in the photograph and men in the painting above is striking and fascinating.

Wow, I think the man is a Berber of some sort, not sure if he is Tuareg. Whatever he is, you were right! He may be of the same stock as those ancient Libyans. I have seen this people before and we should try to find out what tribe he belongs to.

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Hammer
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Djehuti, you have no evidence that crete was settled by africans. It is easy to make there reckless statements but real evidence would be helpful.
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]
I am not aware of any recent studies connecting the Lebou with Canaanites, but i have heard that some archeologists are connecting them with the Israelites. I think your assesment of the Tuareg appearance of the Lebou of the Ramessid period and of the latter with Canaanites is very insightful and probably correct. It would fit in the Tuareg claim of Canaanite and Phoenician ancestry. Personally it is my belief that like the Philistines, the later dark-skinned Lebou the Ramesid period represent people of Canaanite origin. The former however may have settled in the Aegean like the Tjeker and come in with the fairer skinned Sea People.

The studies I speak of that connect Libyans with Canaanites are not recent but old. The connection in particular is not that Libyans are of Canaanite descent but that both Libyans and Canaanites share a common ancestry via the Egyptian delta. One source that I specifically remember is a book on Minoan and early Aegean civilization in which the author cites early emigration to Crete from Africa from neolithic to early Bronze Age times. He even calls the Bronze Age emigration a kind of exodus perhaps due to political upheaval of Egypt's unification under Narmer where refugees were displaced both to the west of the Delta in Libya as well as east to the Levant. We know that there is strong evidence both archaeologically as well as genetically that proto-Semtic entered Southwest Asia through the Levant which correlates with such migrations from the Egypt's Delta. Hopefully I can get my hands on that book on Minoan civilization, so I can post that info.

[QUOTE][qb]

I believe that some Libyans were the ancestors of many Canaanites of the southern Hejaz and the later SyroPalestine.

I believe that their remnant were the Hejaz groups known in Assyrian writings as Mehluhha or Musri or Masri and that the latter reentered Egypt during the "Hyksos" period( which was not called Misra until after the the tribe settled there).

I believe that the Fulani or Fellata are remnants of the "Libyans" that never left Africa due to both Saharan and Egyptian representations of the Libyans which I have not been able to locate and the fact that even later representations show people wearing identical designs on their attire.

Nevertheless, the Fulani/Fellata have long been in the area of Egypt, Libya and Sudan and connected with the Arabian Djerafin(Terapin?)tribes up until the 20th century. Fulani are undoubtedly the Barzu Fulitani of Mauretania Caesarea (evidently coastal Algeria) and their name may have some connection with the name of the Israelite Bnei or Birzeit Yaphlet of the Hebrew writings Chronicles 7:32 and 33. They may also be the same as the Pelethi mentioned with the Cherethi.

The personnage of Yaphlet is said to be the son of a "Heber" or "Beriah" through Asher identified by Kamal Salibi as the Dthu Shari (Dusariyah) of the southern Hijaz and Nejran region.

As mentioned before I am in agreement with Salibi's findings of the southern origin of the Canaanite/Israelite peoples.

keeping in mind the writings of the Syrians of the 14th century that state it was rare to see a fair- skinned Arab in the Hejaz I also believe there is a strong possibility remnants of the names of ancient Libyans or Lehabim and Mizraim are probably found in the early and modern Arabian names of Lehaba, Muzar, Masruh, and Djehene (Tehenu?) and Tamah.


Please note most of the ancient Libyan names bear strong resemblance to those of ancient and modern Arabian names.
Until the 20th century the Lahabah (or Lahaybi) are mentioned as a branch of the Masruh in northern Hejaz, next to the Khazarah (Khazraj)and Gassan or Kassan. They are mentioned by Richard Burton in his travels.

The Khazarah (Jazar of Josephus) and Kassan (Kushana and Jokshan of the Bible)however claim to have moved north after the breaking of the dam at Marib. It is by tradition asserted that they that fought against the rulers of the Hejazi Misrah otherwise known the Mehluchha (Amalekites) named Samud (Khamudi?) who were also in control of Syria and the Nile valley.

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None of this provides any evidence that any of the above claims are true.
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]
.

Identifying ancient peoples based on the names of one language is hard enough, but going through all these transliterations and other names that may or may not be related I find to be a mess. All I know that Israelite records say Philistim is descendant of Casluhim and both Casluhim and Caphtorim are sons of Mizraim. The name 'Casluhim' looks most like the Casluhet. And in my opinion Kapthorim looks most like Egyptian Keftiu. If this folk tradition is true, then these peoples have their origins in Egypt.

quote:
I believe the Musuri or Masrah of the Syro-Arabian area were a remnant of those "black Syrians" from whom had come the Kasluhim and Kafturim (Kethu or Kizzuwat), Lebou or Lehabim and Philistines or Peleset. In Hebrew texts the last 4 came from the Mitzraim which was the name of a tribe in the Levant which should not be confused with the region called Egypt today. They were all descended from one people who settled Syria and other places in the Mediterranean and Aegean during the Hyksos period. i learned from the ANE forum a long time ago that the Musri were called Meluhha while the Arabians and Hebrews called them the Amlukh or Amalekites.
If you identify Mizraim with a Levantine people instead of Egypt, this where I get confused since I'm so used to associating the name with Egypt. I take it then, that Biblical Cush in this case would be Arabian instead of the African Kush. Canaan is still Levantine, so what about 'Phut'? ...It's tempting, but can one possibly connect this 'Cethimus' to the Cadmus of Greek legends who supposedly founded the city-state of Thebes and introduced the alphabet to Greece? According to Greek lore Cadmus was a Phoenician prince and we know that Phoenicia or ancient Canaan was also known to the Greeks as 'Aethiopia'. Control of Egypt when? Are you identifying them with the Hyksos?

quote:
As I mentioned previously these Qeti or Kethwat or Keftiu must be the Khethim of Josephus whom he claimed had colonized the Cyprus and the Mediterranean under Cethimus. The latter is most likely "Cathim the Amalekite" ruler of Arabian tradition.

Thus, we find peoples named Khetim, Maketa, Ketama all over the ancient Mediterranean and Aegean, and north Africa whom are undoubtedly the "Ethiopians" who Greek tradition once said to have to the mountain of Atlas (Daris).

I don't identify Khethim with Cadmus. The name Cadmusii or Cydamae in the Roman times, for example is used for the Berbers who setttled in Ghadames (ancient Cidamus) in Libya. The House of Cadmus mentioned by Pausanius, of course refers to Phoenicians who settled in the Mycenaean region of Thebes though. The name Kedem or Kadmon is of course listed with one of the tribes of Amalek and Midian. I believe Kedem were Amalekites like the descendants of Kethim whose name is probably related to the people called Cheth and Chitim, but Cathim and Kedem are two different words. They are both one of many Amalekite or "Phoenician" tribes that settled the Aegean and North Africa.

Kedem is also called Kedmeh one of the "tribes of Ishmael". "Whenever Israel planted crops, Midian, Amalek, and Kedem came and damaged the crops" Judges 6:3

I have tried to point out in my page on the Hyksos that the peoples known as Hagar(Hajur) and Midian must have been Azdites and may have entered the Nile and Libya as suggested by Josephus after the dam broke in Marib Yemen the Meriba of Exodus.

In North Africa many of the Berber names a pre-Islamic movement of reflect the movement of peoples from the southern Hejaz and Yemen who had moved into Syria and the north of Arabia. Among these peoples were the Naphish (or Nafusa, Nafzawa), the Jetur or Ithran (known as Bothran in later Arabic tradition) and hence the Botr ibn Berr of the Berbers. "Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael" 1 Chronicles 1:31

The Cadymae (or Kedem), the Hadad or Chedad and Hadid, the Biblical Hagar, Hajur or Hajar)and Massa also written as Mash'ai, Mashek or Mashikha of the Azdites (Marib) are obviously connected to the names Ihaggaren or Hoggar, and Mashikh, Amazigh Imoshagh of indigenous Berbers.

I can not overemphasize Kamal Salibi's book and the fact that his findings of the 100s of names for the Canaanites and Israelites in the Yemen and Asir Tehama region of southwest Arabia explain virtually all of the traditions of Africans of an Arabian origin or connection.

I have also said before that almost all of the names of the Berbers are those of ancient Yemenites and the tribes of Hagar who in Biblical tradition is called Keturah. These groups later settled in the North and in the Trogodyte regions of Africa as Josephus said. It is also not me that says the Naphish gave their name to the Nafusa and Nafzawa. That is the tradition of that Berber people. Because Berbers with these names are dark in color people don't want to recognize who they truly are.

"The Oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race: The Study of the origin of European peoples The Walter Scott Publishing Company 1901.


 -
Girl of Jebel Nafusa


Of course, the tribe of Kenana is located in Hejaz as well as Jericho today. People write as if Canaanites and Israelites groups mentioned in the Bible and their names are lost and disappeared, but in reality most of these peoples and their names are found among dark-skinned people in Arabia today and among the Berbers in N. Africa. Thus, I would have to say that the later groups of Libyo-Berbers i.e., Nafusa and other Zenata, Sanhaja and Masmuda - must have come in part from the Levant and Yemen as they say they did. Some of them are those figured in the Ramses paintings.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[ Sorry your quotes got mixed up with mine in the last posting Djehuti.

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[QUOTE]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The word "Nigritai" comes from an Afro-Asiatic word for river and probably refers to the Wedh Draa area. The early Berbers of the Wed Regh and Wed Draa are the Darae Getuli of the ancient writers. Richmond Palmer also related the word to the word Taurud. I also had posted the below previously.

"Among the Gaetules were a tribe Dari or Darae Gaetuli, there was also a stream called Daradae Ethiopus-i- '(DARAE were a Gaetulian tribe in the W. of Africa, on a mountain stream called Dara, on the S. steppes of M. Atlas, adjacent to the Pharusii. (Plin. V. 1: Oros. i. 2: Leo Afr. P. 602.)'"

The Draa (Arabic: درأ) (also spelled Dra or Draâ, in older sources mostly Darha or Dara) is Morocco's longest river (1100 km). 'The inhabitants of the Draa are called Draawa (an exonym), the most famous Draawi undoubtedly being mawlay Mohammed ash-Sheikh. Outside of the Draa region this name is mostly used to refer to the dark skinned people of Draa which make up the largest portion of its inhabitants.' Retrieved May 13th 2008 from
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Draa-river "

The reason the word Nigri or Niger came to be identified blackness is due the the appearance of these Berber peoples.

Of course. It is a well established fact that the first Africans known to Europeans were North Africans just across the Mediterranean and most if not all were described as 'black'. It makes you wonder how in time Westerners only applied black to 'Sub-Saharans' but not North Africans anymore.
quote:
 -

What is your proof that these are three different peoples and if that is so why do they all have the same hairstyle. It looks to me as if one man just could have faded more than the others.

The so-called Asiatic is the same color as Ramses. If the paint has been faded on Ramses (which it was) than the paint on the "Asiatic" and other person was also probably originally darker.

The proof is based on three reasons. First, the three men all have different physical appearances and dress attire. The Kushite on the left is the darkest and while it may be somewhat difficult to see, he is wearing a leopard skin. The Asiatic in the middle is wearing clothing common to Asiatics and has a stereotypical hooked shaped nose common among West Semites and again while it may look like he and Ramses have the same complexion, Ramses actually has traces of much darker coloring while the Asiatic does not. As for the Libyan on the right, his paint seems to be the most faded and while his clothing may not be clear, he is wearing a long tunic common to Libyans. The second reason is that traditionally in Egyptian art when a pharaoh is smiting enemies, he is shown smiting a single man if he is engaged in war with a single people. If he is warring with more than one people, then a man of each group will be shown in the smiting scene. And lastly, the hieroglyphs on that Medinet Habu scene label the enemies.
quote:

 -

 -

The resemblance in profiles between men in the photograph and men in the painting above is striking and fascinating.

Wow, I think the man is a Berber of some sort, not sure if he is Tuareg. Whatever he is, you were right! He may be of the same stock as those ancient Libyans. I have seen this people before and we should try to find out what tribe he belongs to.

According to the label in the picture he is Mauritanian but other than that, I have no idea what ethnicity. The pic was first posted by Takruri to compare him with pics of the white Libyans who have the same goatee and braided hair-style.
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Djehuti
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quote:

I believe that some Libyans were the ancestors of many Canaanites of the southern Hejaz and the later SyroPalestine.

I believe that their remnant were the Hejaz groups known in Assyrian writings as Mehluhha or Musri or Masri and that the latter reentered Egypt during the "Hyksos" period (which was not called Misra until after the tribe settled there).

Then wouldn't it be more proper to say that these were 'Egyptians' in the sense that these Africans who entered the Levant did so from Egypt?

quote:
I believe that the Fulani or Fellata are remnants of the "Libyans" that never left Africa due to both Saharan and Egyptian representations of the Libyans which I have not been able to locate and the fact that even later representations show people wearing identical designs on their attire.

Nevertheless, the Fulani/Fellata have long been in the area of Egypt, Libya and Sudan and connected with the Arabian Djerafin(Terapin?)tribes up until the 20th century. Fulani are undoubtedly the Barzu Fulitani of Mauretania Caesarea (evidently coastal Algeria) and their name may have some connection with the name of the Israelite Bnei or Birzeit Yaphlet of the Hebrew writings Chronicles 7:32 and 33. They may also be the same as the Pelethi mentioned with the Cherethi.

The personnage of Yaphlet is said to be the son of a "Heber" or "Beriah" through Asher identified by Kamal Salibi as the Dthu Shari (Dusariyah) of the southern Hijaz and Nejran region.

There is evidence of Fulani or rather Fulani ancestors being farther north and modern day Fulani are found throughout the sahel region of the continent from Niger to Sudan, but what makes you think they comprised the Libyans or even entered Arabia?

quote:
As mentioned before I am in agreement with Salibi's findings of the southern origin of the Canaanite/Israelite peoples.

keeping in mind the writings of the Syrians of the 14th century that state it was rare to see a fair- skinned Arab in the Hejaz I also believe there is a strong possibility remnants of the names of ancient Libyans or Lehabim and Mizraim are probably found in the early and modern Arabian names of Lehaba, Muzar, Masruh, and Djehene (Tehenu?) and Tamah.

Please note most of the ancient Libyan names bear strong resemblance to those of ancient and modern Arabian names. Until the 20th century the Lahabah (or Lahaybi) are mentioned as a branch of the Masruh in northern Hejaz, next to the Khazarah (Khazraj)and Gassan or Kassan. They are mentioned by Richard Burton in his travels.

The Khazarah (Jazar of Josephus) and Kassan (Kushana and Jokshan of the Bible)however claim to have moved north after the breaking of the dam at Marib. It is by tradition asserted that they fought against the rulers of the Hejazi Misrah otherwise known the Mehluchha (Amalekites) named Samud (Khamudi?) who were also in control of Syria and the Nile valley.

So what of the Biblical claims connecting Arabians with 'Cush'?
quote:
I don't identify Khethim with Cadmus. The name Cadmusii or Cydamae in the Roman times, for example is used for the Berbers who setttled in Ghadames (ancient Cidamus) in Libya. The House of Cadmus mentioned by Pausanius, of course refers to Phoenicians who settled in the Mycenaean region of Thebes though. The name Kedem or Kadmon is of course listed with one of the tribes of Amalek and Midian. I believe Kedem were Amalekites like the descendants of Kethim whose name is probably related to the people called Cheth and Chitim, but Cathim and Kedem are two different words. They are both one of many Amalekite or "Phoenician" tribes that settled the Aegean and North Africa.

Kedem is also called Kedmeh one of the "tribes of Ishmael". "Whenever Israel planted crops, Midian, Amalek, and Kedem came and damaged the crops" Judges 6:3

I have tried to point out in my page on the Hyksos that the peoples known as Hagar(Hajur) and Midian must have been Azdites and may have entered the Nile and Libya as suggested by Josephus after the dam broke in Marib Yemen the Meriba of Exodus.

In North Africa many of the Berber names a pre-Islamic movement of reflect the movement of peoples from the southern Hejaz and Yemen who had moved into Syria and the north of Arabia. Among these peoples were the Naphish (or Nafusa, Nafzawa), the Jetur or Ithran (known as Bothran in later Arabic tradition) and hence the Botr ibn Berr of the Berbers. "Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael" 1 Chronicles 1:31

The Cadymae (or Kedem), the Hadad or Chedad and Hadid, the Biblical Hagar, Hajur or Hajar)and Massa also written as Mash'ai, Mashek or Mashikha of the Azdites (Marib) are obviously connected to the names Ihaggaren or Hoggar, and Mashikh, Amazigh Imoshagh of indigenous Berbers.

I can not overemphasize Kamal Salibi's book and the fact that his findings of the 100s of names for the Canaanites and Israelites in the Yemen and Asir Tehama region of southwest Arabia explain virtually all of the traditions of Africans of an Arabian origin or connection.

I have also said before that almost all of the names of the Berbers are those of ancient Yemenites and the tribes of Hagar who in Biblical tradition is called Keturah. These groups later settled in the North and in the Trogodyte regions of Africa as Josephus said. It is also not me that says the Naphish gave their name to the Nafusa and Nafzawa. That is the tradition of that Berber people. Because Berbers with these names are dark in color people don't want to recognize who they truly are.

"The Oases of Nafzawa and Wed Suef and Wed Regh and other Berbers of the Sus as “of very dark complexion” Guiseppi Sergi The Mediterranean Race: The Study of the origin of European peoples The Walter Scott Publishing Company 1901.

 -
Girl of Jebel Nafusa

Of course, the tribe of Kenana is located in Hejaz as well as Jericho today. People write as if Canaanites and Israelites groups mentioned in the Bible and their names are lost and disappeared, but in reality most of these peoples and their names are found among dark-skinned people in Arabia today and among the Berbers in N. Africa. Thus, I would have to say that the later groups of Libyo-Berbers i.e., Nafusa and other Zenata, Sanhaja and Masmuda - must have come in part from the Levant and Yemen as they say they did. Some of them are those figured in the Ramses paintings.

So you say that not only did Africans migrate into the Levant and Arabia in ancient times, but that they migrated back into Africa? The former is pretty much verified by linguistics, archaeology, and bio-anthropology but what of the latter? Not that I doubt you completely, but if Levantine or Arabian groups migrated into Africa how did they by-pass the Egypto-Sudan area unless there is evidence of them there?
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

[QUOTE][qb]  -

What is your proof that these are three different peoples and if that is so why do they all have the same hairstyle. It looks to me as if one man just could have faded more than the others.

The so-called Asiatic is the same color as Ramses. If the paint has been faded on Ramses (which it was) than the paint on the "Asiatic" and other person was also probably originally darker.

The proof is based on three reasons. First, the three men all have different physical appearances and dress attire. The Kushite on the left is the darkest and while it may be somewhat difficult to see, he is wearing a leopard skin. The Asiatic in the middle is wearing clothing common to Asiatics and has a stereotypical hooked shaped nose common among West Semites and again while it may look like he and Ramses have the same complexion, Ramses actually has traces of much darker coloring while the Asiatic does not. As for the Libyan on the right, his paint seems to be the most faded and while his clothing may not be clear, he is wearing a long tunic common to Libyans. The second reason is that traditionally in Egyptian art when a pharaoh is smiting enemies, he is shown smiting a single man if he is engaged in war with a single people. If he is warring with more than one people, then a man of each group will be shown in the smiting scene. And lastly, the hieroglyphs on that Medinet Habu scene label the enemies.



Now that I'm looking closer I think you are right that the men must be portraying three different groups of people.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE][qb]
I believe that some Libyans were the ancestors of many Canaanites of the southern Hejaz and the later SyroPalestine.

I believe that their remnant were the Hejaz groups known in Assyrian writings as Mehluhha or Musri or Masri and that the latter reentered Egypt during the "Hyksos" period (which was not called Misra until after the tribe settled there).

Then wouldn't it be more proper to say that these were 'Egyptians' in the sense that these Africans who entered the Levant did so from Egypt?

[QUOTE] [qb] I think the groups at Fayum in Egypt and the people at places like neolithic Kharga, the Tenere and Tassili and other parts of the Sahara were related. I guess the earliest names for them were Tjehenu and Tjemehou. Probably the early Old Kingdom Egyptians came from the south in Nubia and had connections with A group.

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dana marniche
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As I said the early people of Libyans that I have seen from the Old Kingdom paintings look just like the Fulani. They were dark brown and with profiles identical to the Fulani. As I recall however these men were called Tjehenu. That is what the manager of the Oriental museum library told me when he went and looked it up. However, what is interesting is that the hairstyles and attire of later Libyabns on the tomb of Seti have been noted to have strong similarity to certain modern Fulani. Thus, I can come to no other concludsion that the Fulani, the Tjehenu of Kharga and the later Libyans were originally one and the same people.

As for why I think they entered Arabia. Maybe I didn't make it as clear as I could have above, but as I mentioned, I believe the Pelethi, Birze Yaphlet, Barzu Fulitani and the Warith Felata (Fulani, Fula) were the same name for the same people. I believe however that the African Fulani or Felata as they are called are remnants of the original Tjehenu who were probably linked to the neolithic Saharans.

I don't think it is that much of a stretch to see them as the people who became the Pelethi of Arabia (Tehama) when we know the people of the Fayum have been trading with and linked to the Levantese Tahun culture and Arabia since the neolithic, just as today the peoples of Sinai like the Beja and Haweitat live on both sides of the Red Sea.


There is also the possibility that the neolithic people crossed from the area of the southern Arabia by way of the Horn. In any case the Fulani seem to represent that group of people that became ancestral certain elongated Cushitic speakers like the Oromo/Rendili and Maasai/Samburu (judging from the similar coxcomb hairstyles of the women). They also were ancestral to the Ovalheaded warriors represented in early Central Arabian rock art, but that would have been at least by 5,000 years B.C..

According to several scholars the lithics of Rub al-Khali where this rock art occurs and other places are undifferentiated from the Saharan neolithic bovidians of Fayum, Tenere, neolithic Khartoum, Kharga, Tassili, etc..


That is not to say that the African Fellata came in as part of the Hyksos movement from Arabia, as I believe many of the Tuareg did.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] [QUOTE][qb]


[QUOTE][qb]As mentioned before I am in agreement with Salibi's findings of the southern origin of the Canaanite/Israelite peoples...So what of the Biblical claims connecting Arabians with 'Cush'?

[qb] If you get Salibi's book he does a whole chapter on the confusion over the name Cush in the Bible. He claims most references refer to the Cuthim. Aribi and Kutha'a or Kuth were tribes of Himyarites known in Arabian genealogy as Yarub or Yarab and Kudha'a or Kudha'a. Kuth is also called the son of Ham in Ethiopian royal genealogy and apparently replaces the word Kush/Cush.

There is also the name Kushi or Kushana in the Bible used for Jokshan which is related to Kishon where the Israelites faced a torrent . In Arabia the people who came from this region are the South Arabians called Ghassan (later Kassanitae or Casandreis of the Greeks further north).

Lastly there is the name Kush which appears to be the Arabian Cassit or Khashid or Hebraic and Biblical Khasdim and Chesed. Thus Numayr/Numeir (panther Biblical Nimrod)son of Kush is in Arabian tradition said to be bin Kasit or bin Arfakhshad which Salibi claimed was also a place called War Maksud in southern Arabia and not the Ur of Iraq.

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dana marniche
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As I mentioned I think the Misra/Lehaba or Lehabim groups are the NW Arabian people that were called Meluhha in Assyrian texts and they gave the name Misra to the lower Nile kingdom. I believe these Mehluhha had to have come up from Yemen where were the early Canaanites and their kings (Anak or Nakhi, Sheshi names found on Hyksos scarabs) mentioned in Genesis. Tradition has it that Egypt was invaded by Himyarite kings of the Amalekites also called Adites. Even the name of Himyar/Humayr (donkey) of the Yemenites is identical to that of Hamor "king of Canaan". According to Salibi and in fact African (including Tuareg) tradition Canaan was a part of Yemen extending into the Asir region.

I think it is very possible that these people were ancestral to the Tuareg Iforas and Nafusa groups (Zenata) who claim descent from individuals of "Canaan" which are confirmed on Hyksos scarabs(Canaanite/Yemenite chiefs). Some of this may be resolved when the chronology of the Bronze Age and Egypt's Middle Kingdom is rectified. But I think it plausible that their remnant were represented in the painting of the "Lebou" men wearing blue and yellow above in bas relief with - again - the brown paint fading away.

There is also confusion because it either Hyksos rulers in Misra, a south Arabian region or native Egyptian Pharaohs were in control of these regions during certain periods.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The resemblance in profiles between men in the photograph and men in the painting above is striking and fascinating.

Wow, I think the man is a Berber of some sort, not sure if he is Tuareg. Whatever he is, you were right! He may be of the same stock as those ancient Libyans. I have seen this people before and we should try to find out what tribe he belongs to.

According to the label in the picture he is Mauritanian but other than that, I have no idea what ethnicity. The pic was first posted by Takruri to compare him with pics of the white Libyans who have the same goatee and braided hair-style.
The image of the Berber man from Mauretania I found a while back while searching for old photos of Mauritania. It either comes from a site called Abdelacpa or postcardman.net. I will see if I can find the link to the original page.
One thing I noticed about the appearance of these people and their hair styles was the strong similarity to the Beja people of Sudan.

Found it.

The page is here:

http://www.postcardman.net/mauritania_ethnic.html

Some examples of the "Beja like" hair and appearance:

 -


 -

 -

Frontal image of the man above:
 -

 -

 -

 -

I also found this on that site under Morocco:

 -

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Doug M
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Some others:

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

One labeled Riffian:
 -

 -

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]

 -
Paint faded from Ramses with "Libyans"

Actually, each of the three enemies that Ramses has in his grasp represents a different people. The darkest one on the left being Kushite, the one in the middle being Asiatic, and the one on the right presumably Libyan. Many Eurocentrics love to use this picture as proof that Ramses and the Egyptians weren't black because he seemingly has the same color as the Asiatic, but upon closer inspection one can find traces of darker brown paint especially around his arm and face.

 -

The enemy on the right is the only one out of the three whose face is full frontal. If only someone could get a better zoom in look.


this is dimwitted, the dark line that is being pointed to is on one side, it's a shadow from the recessing carved in line of the relief.
the light source is of the photo is off to one side. the circular object to the right of Ramses, lower right shows this same type of shadow, it's not caused by a color change it's caused by the fact that there is a recess carved into the stone.
Further proof of this is this dark shadow extends all the way down into the loincloth area that flares out far off the body.


I'm not saying that that this painting proves anything one way or the other but these types of delusions set in once your the mind is locked.

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the lioness,
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 -
3,000 BC, Southern Algeria.


.  -
Minoan


.  -


 -

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Hammer
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Egyptians have one piece of art after another showing a clear distinction between themselves and black africans. Some of you folks need to go out and get a job instead of trying to push pointless nonsense that nobody is interested in.

--------------------
The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer:
Egyptians have one piece of art after another showing a clear distinction between themselves and black africans. Some of you folks need to go out and get a job instead of trying to push pointless nonsense that nobody is interested in.

the argument made by many in this forum is that the Egyptians were relatively lighter brown skinned negroes who were lighter than black skinned negroes
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Hammer
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They makes these arguments for modern political reasons lioness. If you banned talk of black egyptians from this board most of these people would never come back. Most are not the least bit interested in egyptian history.

--------------------
The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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lol @ the bogus "lioness" and "Hammer" trolls..
"lioness" types in lower case to appear
"different" and disguise the
fact that "she" is really "Hammer"..
And "they" hope the 15 min interval between
posts will provide more "cover.."

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
lol @ the bogus "lioness" and "Hammer" trolls..
"lioness" types in lower case to appear
"different" and disguise the
fact that "she" is really "Hammer"..
And "they" hope the 15 min interval between
posts will provide more "cover.."


typical zarahan methodology. no studies to support it
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer:
They makes these arguments for modern political reasons lioness. If you banned talk of black egyptians from this board most of these people would never come back. Most are not the least bit interested in egyptian history.

what is your general motive for posting then?
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Doug M
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up
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Byron Bumper
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BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

--------------------
BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

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xyyman
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^ Nice link Sage! So back in the day there was already speculation the light skin is "indigenous" to Africa. Now modern genetics have caught up!

Tropical elongated Africans with light skin.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Sage, You were ahead of the game..
Indigenous..yes, but not from the Northern shores as modern genetics has shown.

[QUE]Originally posted by alTakruri:
[] I don't know which white populations you're refering to.
If you mean the ones from the northern shores of the
Mediterranean its redundant to re-emphasize their
whiteness as that's the gist of what I've proposed
(that such folk were the cream in the coffee).

They're the non-indigenous component in the production
of the "white" Africans. You aren't arguing that African
chromosomes don't predominate in "white" North Africa,
are you?

Ah, but they do. They comprise nearly three quarters,
hence the "white" Africans are indeed indigenous.

Don't drag Egyptian civilization into this. Stay focused.
The object under examination are those of the ancient
"Libyans," and their descendents, who had, and have,
extremely light complexions comparable to Europeans. [/QB][/QUOTE]

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xyyman
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Is there some technique to move this entire thread to ESR?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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DD'eDeN
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Dana Marniche: "The name Kedem or Kadmon is of course listed with one of the tribes of Amalek and Midian. I believe Kedem were Amalekites like the descendants of Kethim whose name is probably related to the people called Cheth and Chitim, but Cathim and Kedem are two different words. They are both one of many Amalekite or "Phoenician" tribes that settled the Aegean and North Africa."

- - -
Compare Kedem to Edom/Idumea(Gk) which mean red and refers to Petra area.

Kedem is also called Kedmeh one of the "tribes of Ishmael". "Whenever Israel planted crops, Midian, Amalek, and Kedem came and damaged the crops" Judges 6:3

I have tried to point out in my page on the Hyksos that the peoples known as Hagar(Hajur) and Midian must have been Azdites and may have entered the Nile and Libya as suggested by Josephus after the dam broke in Marib Yemen the Meriba of Exodus.

In North Africa many of the Berber names a pre-Islamic movement of reflect the movement of peoples from the southern Hejaz and Yemen who had moved into Syria and the north of Arabia. Among these peoples were the Naphish (or Nafusa, Nafzawa), the Jetur or Ithran (known as Bothran in later Arabic tradition) and hence the Botr ibn Berr of the Berbers. "Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael" 1 Chronicles 1:31

The Cadymae (or Kedem), the Hadad or Chedad and Hadid, the Biblical Hagar, Hajur or Hajar)and Massa also written as Mash'ai, Mashek or Mashikha of the Azdites (Marib) are obviously connected to the names Ihaggaren or Hoggar, and Mashikh, Amazigh Imoshagh of indigenous Berbers.

I can not overemphasize Kamal Salibi's book and the fact that his findings of the 100s of names for the Canaanites and Israelites in the Yemen and Asir Tehama region of southwest Arabia explain virtually all of the traditions of Africans of an Arabian origin or connection.

I have also said before that almost all of the names of the Berbers are those of ancient Yemenites and the tribes of Hagar who in Biblical tradition is called Keturah. These groups later settled in the North and in the Trogodyte regions of Africa as Josephus said. It is also not me that says the Naphish gave their name to the Nafusa and Nafzawa. That is the tradition of that Berber people. Because Berbers with these names are dark in color people don't want to recognize who they truly are.

--------------------
xyambuatlaya

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DD'eDeN
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DD'eDeN: "Compare Kedem to Edom/Idumea(Gk) which mean red and refers to Petra area."

The rest of the paragraph was by Dana Marniche.


Note: edom(Hebrew) = reddish = dawn/tawny/tan/taupe/brown/faun/fan(the ember to redden)/jaundice/orange/roan/merah(Malay: red)/roja(Spanish:red)

--------------------
xyambuatlaya

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Tukuler
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@ DJ
a bump from pg 1
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Take it up with Keita:

quote:

The morphological features (light skin and eyes,
etc.) of Berbers likely also developed
in situ
in the African context, at least in part, but
also likely result from gene flow from Eurasia
that was likely primarily maternally mediated.

How so in situ?
quote:

... restricted early Holocene populations from the
northern Sahara who represented a skewed non-
representative and non-random sample of the
Saharan peoples who were evolving there after
recolonisation with the decrease in aridity in
the late Pleistocene; ...

Indigenous African whites/near whites have peaches
and cream complexions not the roses and milk of pallour
of European whites.

Heretofore I proposed the cream in the coffee or
caramel of the black supra-Saharan Africans came
from Aegean females (in the case of Libou) and
Tyrhennian females (for Meshwesh). I based this
on Sea Peoples/Trojan War refugees for the former
and neolithic - chalcolithic trans-Mediterranean
trade for the latter.

This still left me unanswered questions in regards
to creamy Tjemehu/Tamehu/TMHHW already in early
19th dynasty times and whites in Saharan rock art
that appear seemingly prior to beaker and obsidian
relics of circa 1500 BCE
.

Can you address these specifics?



--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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Bumped to showcase Kefi objective apolitical science


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I just want to be clear about what you're saying
so I ask if you mean -- and assuming you read
Kefi and Rhouda -- that mtDNA haplogroups CRS
and other H or U, and JT, and V derived in Africa?

These studies cannot be ignored because they conflict
with previously held convictions. They must be met head
on, analysed and critiqued where we find disagreement.

For instancce, in the PPt Kefi throws out TafVIII.
Is it in order to deny an inner African component
in epipaleolithic Taforalt? It is the only sample
of possible L3, M, or N affiliation. There were
only two U6 samples yet Kefi did not exclude
them among originators of "Ibero-Maurusians."

Clearly if the L3/M/N individual was found
at Taforalt then she was just as much an
"Ibero-Maurusian" originator as the two U6
females were. 4% is as weighty as 8% when
the true heavy weight ranks in at 50%.

Also, it is very significant that an L3/M/N female
was living that far north so near the very shoreline
of N Africa at that point in time with her other
African mtDNA sisters of the U6 haplogroup.


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Its long been known speculated even based on similarities anthropological attributes Mechta Afalou, i.e. types found in Ibero-Maurusian and Jebel Sahaba in Nubia,- dolichocephalic Cro-magnons in Europe and other Paleolithic-mesolithic populations in Europe and Eurasia were related. Modern genetic-based studies on crania have said the same thing.

"As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."

On the other hand, more recent or modern peoples in Eurasia have to some extent absorbed ancient Eurasiatics and thus genetic continuity to some degree would be expected.




--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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________________KEFI 2018


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___________________KEFI 2005
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___________________KEFI 2005


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this says not sure if L3, M or N

was there crania data documented?

Notice at top, the newer article (not the blue 2005 powerpoint)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?journalCode=imdn21

On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA
Rym Kefi et al. 2018


Taf VIII = Haplogroup U4a2b 100%

^ not L3, M or N

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