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Author Topic: OT: Did ancient Greeks wear turbans?
BrandonP
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The turban, a type of clothing wrapped around the head, is a very popular style of headgear in Southwest Asian cultures. In the imaginations of many Westerners, it is the quintessential (or at least stereotypical) Southwest Asian headdress.

Now, few people know this (in fact I just discovered this tonight), but it appears that the Greek mathematician Pythagoras in fact wore a turban, as shown in this sculpture:

 -

Did he pick up this piece of fashion from Southwest Asians, or did ancient Greeks in fact commonly wear turbans? This is the only piece in Greek art I've seen that depicts a turban or any other clothing worn on the head---maybe there's more.

BTW, another famous historical figure, the Babylonian Hammurabi, also appears to be wearing a turban in this image.

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Yonis
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The ancient Greeks were very much connected to the levant so it wouldn't be surprise if they had similar clothing styles. Pythagoras would probably have looked like a shiite sheik if he had lived today, kinda like Khatami

 -

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alTakruri
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The exception doesn't make the rule. Son like father.
Greeks weren't turban wearers, maybe his Phoenician father was.
Or else he picked up the dome item in his eastern travels.

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus:
... did ancient Greeks in fact commonly wear turbans? This is the only piece in Greek art I've seen that depicts a turban or any other clothing worn on the head ...


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Djehuti
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^ Takruri is correct.

And just to let you know T-rex, that the turban is not only traditionally worn by Southwest Asians/'Middle-Easterners' but it is also the traditional headdress of South Asians (peoples of India)

Another thing is that 'turban' type headwraps are actually more common and widespread around the world, but were usually the headdress of women! This couldn't be more true with the ancient Greeks.

 -

In Greece, a turban was a sign of domesticity and hard working women.

Turbans were also traditionally worn by women in many parts of Africa as well as southern China and Southeast Asia, as symbols of status. There were even turbans worn by women of certain Native American groups in Central and South America.

As for men's turbans, scholars aren't entirely sure where men's turbans originated. The earliest examples from written texts come from Iranian peoples like the Medes and Persians who whore conical headdresses which they then wrapped in cloth. Early Vedic Indians had the same custom. Many Semitic speaking nomads living in the deserts of the Levant and Arabia began to wrap their heads and faces with cloth to prevent the sand from getting in. Of course as Hinduism spread by Indians and later Islam by Arabs, so to did the style of men's turbans.

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Clyde Winters
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Djehuti
quote:

The earliest examples from written texts come from Iranian peoples like the Medes and Persians who whore conical headdresses which they then wrapped in cloth. Early Vedic Indians had the same custom.



According to Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America, the Medes style headress was also common among the Mande speaking people.

.

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C. A. Winters

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alTakruri
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Whatever it is those pictured women are wearing they aren't turbans.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

According to Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America, the Medes style headress was also common among the Mande speaking people.

Any specific examples? I doubt it. The Mande have nothing to do with Medes, Clyde.

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Whatever it is those pictured women are wearing they aren't turbans.

That is the only picture I could find on the net at the moment. They are wearing simple head wraps, but women from wealthier families wore fuller looking ones that gave the look of small turbans.
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alTakruri
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I understand what you mean. The west calls it a
turban when a woman's got her head wrapped up in
any kind of scarf or whatever. It's just that a
real turban is a specific article of men's clothing
made from at the least a couple of yards of fabric.

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dan5678
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus:
The turban, a type of clothing wrapped around the head, is a very popular style of headgear in Southwest Asian cultures. In the imaginations of many Westerners, it is the quintessential (or at least stereotypical) Southwest Asian headdress.

Now, few people know this (in fact I just discovered this tonight), but it appears that the Greek mathematician Pythagoras in fact wore a turban, as shown in this sculpture:

 -

Did he pick up this piece of fashion from Southwest Asians, or did ancient Greeks in fact commonly wear turbans? This is the only piece in Greek art I've seen that depicts a turban or any other clothing worn on the head---maybe there's more.

BTW, another famous historical figure, the Babylonian Hammurabi, also appears to be wearing a turban in this image.

No ancient Greeks did not wear turbans. That bust is from a late 15th century Latin artist in Italy. Greek personalities were often depicted wearing "Oriental" garments during that time period. Aside from Pythagoras, Homer, Aristotle and many other Greek personalities can be seen wearing turbans in that time period.
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Djehuti
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^ That explains everything, then! Thanks for the info, Dan.
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dan5678
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ That explains everything, then! Thanks for the info, Dan.

You are welcome, Djehuti.
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by dan5678:
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus:
The turban, a type of clothing wrapped around the head, is a very popular style of headgear in Southwest Asian cultures. In the imaginations of many Westerners, it is the quintessential (or at least stereotypical) Southwest Asian headdress.

Now, few people know this (in fact I just discovered this tonight), but it appears that the Greek mathematician Pythagoras in fact wore a turban, as shown in this sculpture:

 -

Did he pick up this piece of fashion from Southwest Asians, or did ancient Greeks in fact commonly wear turbans? This is the only piece in Greek art I've seen that depicts a turban or any other clothing worn on the head---maybe there's more.

BTW, another famous historical figure, the Babylonian Hammurabi, also appears to be wearing a turban in this image.

No ancient Greeks did not wear turbans. That bust is from a late 15th century Latin artist in Italy. Greek personalities were often depicted wearing "Oriental" garments during that time period. Aside from Pythagoras, Homer, Aristotle and many other Greek personalities can be seen wearing turbans in that time period.
Why? Was Greece considered a cultural extension of Southwest Asia at the time? Or did the Europeans of the time associate Southwest Asian culture with genius and rationalism?
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Djehuti
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^ I think it was more likely an act of artistic creativity. The 15th century was a time when Europe was getting more acuainted with Middle Eastern civilization and advanced culture. I believe these European sculptuors wanted to make a comparison between the high culture of Asiatics with those of ancient Greeks. Not that they were saying Greece was somehow an extension of Asia!
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Kemson
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Again, Ancient Greek (as Whites) never existed. These so-called Ancient Greeks were actually Black Africans who left Ancient Kemet. Europe fabricated well but it wasn't good enough. Facinating how mountain of lies continue to crush under the weight of one truth. Sooner or later, ya'll admit it. [Big Grin]
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Yonis
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quote:
Kemson:
Again, Ancient Greek (as Whites) never existed. These so-called Ancient Greeks were actually Black Africans

So now we have Marc Washington (AKA "Ferrous Cranus"), Clyde Winters, Lord of the nile and Kemson, i wonder who's the next lunatic in line.
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Kemson:
Again, Ancient Greek (as Whites) never existed. These so-called Ancient Greeks were actually Black Africans who left Ancient Kemet.

What evidence do you have for black Ancient Greeks?
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Djehuti
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^ LOL I wonder too!

quote:
Originally posted by Kemson:

Again, Ancient Greek (as Whites) never existed. These so-called Ancient Greeks were actually Black Africans who left Ancient Kemet. Europe fabricated well but it wasn't good enough. Facinating how mountain of lies continue to crush under the weight of one truth. Sooner or later, ya'll admit it. [Big Grin]

 -  -

 -  -

So I take it these ancient Greek scuptures and paintings above are fakes forged by the white man, huh? [Big Grin]

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BrandonP
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Well, I want to see whether or not he has any indisputedly African self-portrayals made by Greeks themselves.

I also want an explanation on how the Greek language came to be Indo-European (a phylum with no precolonial languages in Africa) if the Greeks were of African origin. And what of the cultural commonalities the Greeks share with other Europeans? For example, the Greek religion is very similar in many ways to the Norse religion, even though they developed on opposite sides of the subcontinent!

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Kemson
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More picture of fabrications. I want to see what we've seen from Ancient Kemet.

- Excavations details
- Documentary coverage
- Independent test results (as we've seen with Ancient Kemet proving it was a Black African Civilization)
- Tested human remains (bones, teeth, hair)
- European art dated into B.C. times (not these fake nonsense posts)
- Geologist reports (on stones used for sculptures of Helmet wearing Whites.)

Stop posting modern day European fantasy drawings which never existed in the time of so-called Ancient Greece.

"I think it was more likely an act of artistic creativity. The 15th century was a time when Europe was getting more acuainted with Middle Eastern civilization and advanced culture. I believe these European sculptuors wanted to make a comparison between the high culture of Asiatics with those of ancient Greeks. Not that they were saying Greece was somehow an extension of Asia!"

Exactly correct! Europeans advancements truly began only about a few hundred years ago and ya'll know this.

"So I take it these ancient Greek scuptures and paintings above are fakes forged by the white man, huh?"

You damn right and you know it! A recent White sculpture with modern helmet along with a painting of obvious recent creation complete with "angel wings" as an example of these mysterious Ancient Greeks? Please! This is a classic result of what happens when a people are trying to fabricate the very distant past of foreign, non-associating cultures in modern times in an image of their own, with little or no Ancient references to go on. What you get is “an act of artistic creativity” (sculptor from a few hours ago with a “crusade cross” on it). The hilariousness of such feather weight references almost hinders my typing flow as such lies and the struggle to manage and maintain them never ceases to amaze me (I swear it is better than a movie). How many more fabricated Greek words, names, paintings and yesterdays sculptors do we need to see before we start seeing real scientific test results? Not even a finger nail for testing? Not even one excavation from the 1800’s to 2007?

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Kemson:

More picture of fabrications. I want to see what we've seen from Ancient Kemet.

- Excavations details
- Documentary coverage
- Independent test results (as we've seen with Ancient Kemet proving it was a Black African Civilization)
- Tested human remains (bones, teeth, hair)
- European art dated into B.C. times (not these fake nonsense posts)
- Geologist reports (on stones used for sculptures of Helmet wearing Whites.)

You do realize that when it comes to documented excavation details, we've provided non of that information as it pertains to Egypt. Practically every image of ancient Egyptian art we've shown either comes with a description as to what it depicts or nothing at all.

As for the rest of the stuff, yes we've proven that the ancient Greeks were predominantly European just as Egyptians were African.

quote:
Stop posting modern day European fantasy drawings which never existed in the time of so-called Ancient Greece.
What I just posted are authentic Greek sculptures and paintings. If you don't believe that, too bad. What you believe is of no consquence just like Celt believing in a semi-white Egypt. LOL

quote:
"I think it was more likely an act of artistic creativity. The 15th century was a time when Europe was getting more acuainted with Middle Eastern civilization and advanced culture. I believe these European sculptuors wanted to make a comparison between the high culture of Asiatics with those of ancient Greeks. Not that they were saying Greece was somehow an extension of Asia!"

Exactly correct! Europeans advancements truly began only about a few hundred years ago and ya'll know this.

LOL I hope you realize that my quote pertained to the statue of Pythagoras wearing a turban as shown in the title post!

While it's true European civlilzation came much later than those of other people due to influence from other people (Neolithic etc.) it would be foolish to deny any European civilization.

quote:
[qb]"So I take it these ancient Greek scuptures and paintings above are fakes forged by the white man, huh?"

You damn right and you know it! A recent White sculpture with modern helmet along with a painting of obvious recent creation complete with "angel wings" as an example of these mysterious Ancient Greeks? Please! This is a classic result of what happens when a people are trying to fabricate the very distant past of foreign, non-associating cultures in modern times in an image of their own, with little or no Ancient references to go on. What you get is “an act of artistic creativity” (sculptor from a few hours ago with a “crusade cross” on it). The hilariousness of such feather weight references almost hinders my typing flow as such lies and the struggle to manage and maintain them never ceases to amaze me (I swear it is better than a movie). How many more fabricated Greek words, names, paintings and yesterdays sculptors do we need to see before we start seeing real scientific test results? Not even a finger nail for testing? Not even one excavation from the 1800’s to 2007?

LOL The helmet you speak of is an authentic Greek helmet and the "angel wings" are indicative of a primal Greek god.

Your ignorance is astounding. Yonis is right, you are just another nut in the same line with Marc and Clyde! [Big Grin]

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alTakruri
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Kemson

Do you have examples of black H3W NBW?

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Kemson
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You do realize that when it comes to documented excavation details, we've provided non of that information as it pertains to Egypt. Practically every image of ancient Egyptian art we've shown either comes with a description as to what it depicts or nothing at all.

The helmet you speak of is an authentic Greek helmet and the "angel wings" are indicative of a primal Greek god.

Yonis is right, you are just another nut in the same line with Marc and Clyde!

A foolish and narrow minded nut trying to downplay solid questions from an intelligent nut is a crazier and more ridiculous incompetent nut than the intelligent nut.

I've double checked and I am quite sure I wasn't speaking French or Russian. Let me say it again:

How many more fabricated Greek words, names, paintings and yesterdays sculptors do we need to see before we start seeing real scientific test results? Not even a finger nail for testing? Not even one excavation from the 1800’s to 2007?

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Kemson:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You do realize that when it comes to documented excavation details, we've provided non of that information as it pertains to Egypt. Practically every image of ancient Egyptian art we've shown either comes with a description as to what it depicts or nothing at all.

The helmet you speak of is an authentic Greek helmet and the "angel wings" are indicative of a primal Greek god.

Yonis is right, you are just another nut in the same line with Marc and Clyde!

A foolish and narrow minded nut trying to downplay solid questions from an intelligent nut is a crazier and more ridiculous incompetent nut than the intelligent nut.

I've double checked and I am quite sure I wasn't speaking French or Russian. Let me say it again:

How many more fabricated Greek words, names, paintings and yesterdays sculptors do we need to see before we start seeing real scientific test results? Not even a finger nail for testing? Not even one excavation from the 1800’s to 2007?

I notice that you did not answer my request for evidence of black Greeks. Where IS the evidence? Artistic, genetic, craniometric, whatever, just give us some quality evidence for once instead of bickering about racist forgeries. The burden of proof is on you.

Sheesh, you people remind me of creationists. All belief and no evidence.

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Kemson
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The evidence is in the European lies. I would know once you begin to answer my questions and showing me the proof of White Europeans as originator of this so-called Ancient Greece.

I made a charge that Ancient Greeks were Black African who left ancient Kemet after meticulously studying the great debates between Mary Lefkowitz and Martin Bernal, I came to the conclusion that Ancient Greeks were Black Africans. It is as clear as day.

I believe Mr. Bernal knew that sooner or later the truth will be revealed and he wasn't going to be part of the conscious stupid’s. Careful not to completely devastate certain souls, Bernal cautiously presents his controversial “better-truths” that Ancient Greeks owed all they had to Ancient Kemet. Upon closer examination of Lefkowitz's conclusion and Bernal's conclusions, it becomes crystal clear that Ancient Greeks were undoubtedly Black Africans directly coming from Ancient Kemet.

Since Europeans have no scientific proof that Whites originated Ancient Greece, then commonsense says we can use the same documents currently available to us as Bernal did and even go further comparing, one-by-one, all that existed in Ancient Greece with all that existed in Ancient Kemet (from Spiritual belief to government). Painstaking Science and persistence is a biAtCh ain’t it?

I pondered on utilizing selective points from an important article to show dead giveaway proofs that Ancient Greeks are actually Black African (Kemetian settlers) who attempted to erect another state based on what they had already mastered hence from government to spiritually everything modeled Ancient Kemet. I will post this link here and maybe have some fun later citing specific areas of academic literal "evidences" proving my hypothesis. Since Europeans specialists decided to provide us with only “stories”, we’ll analyze these “stories” as a step in proving Ancient Greeks were Black Africans from Ancient Kemet.

Read very carefully before dealing with Kemson hypothesis. Skimming through/glossing over not allowed (not that I can enforce this).
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1996/96.04.05.html

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Djehuti
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^ LOL This sounds exactly like the white supremacists who say ancient Egyptians were white and all the evidence of black Egyptians were forged lies by "black supremacists"! [Big Grin]

As usual Kemson, you offer no evidence only empty emotional rhetoric. I truly feel sorry for you. You are a perfect example of the adage 'you sometimes become what you hate' in this case you have become exactly like the white racists you fight against. [Embarrassed]

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Kemson
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How can you keep writing "no evidence" while you have provided none yourself? Given the fact that the burden of proving Ancient Greeks are Europeans, as you personally claimed, is on you:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
As for the rest of the stuff, yes we've proven that the ancient Greeks were predominantly European just as Egyptians were African.

You've provided not even a link to this Egyptsearch posts. Maybe you've figured if we continued this cycle "no evidence" charges back and forth, it will buy you more time to figure some things out or maybe it'll just go away on its own (sprinkle some Tinker Bell silent magic dust and puff, it disappears). I don't know but it sure is fascinating.

In reality though, the entire burden of proof in scientifically establishing White Europeans as the originators of the Ancient Greek civilization is on you as well as specialists likes Mary Lefkowitz. Please provide some amount of tangible and convincing scientific evidences besides acts "of artistic creativity" in your rebuttals against my charges. If not, I will ask no more. We'll just have to wait a few more years and maybe something will, you know, pop outta nowhere. You never know! These things have a funny way of turning out. [Roll Eyes]

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Djehuti
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^ Dude, I showed you evidence from acient artwork but you denied them all as fakes. If you doubt any evidence anyone brings forth, what good would it do to bring up more?

How about this. While it is evident Greeks recieved African and Asiatic gentic influence, the base genetic lineages were and still are European:

Greek paternal lineage frequency data[/b]: Hg E3b -> 22.4%, Hg I ->7.9%, Hg J -> 21%, Hg R1b -> 27%, Hg R1a -> 11% - Semino et al., 2002

haplogroups I, R1a, and R1b are European. Both Southwest Asian J and African E entered Greece around the Neolithic which was the same time agriculture was brought to Greece so one could argue for admixture, but it is a far cry from saying the whole population was black.

And all of this shows in the artwork!

We have discussed all this before, Kemson.

It is not my fault that you are too blinded by ignorance and bias to see that. [Roll Eyes]

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Kemson
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Oh no.....CHM.....Halpotypes, Haplogroups....oh man. More abstract theories! No details of physical remains which might have been genetically tested as source for this wonderful CHM based theories and percentages("Hg E3b -> 22.4%, Hg I ->7.9%, Hg J -> 21%, Hg R1b -> 27%, Hg R1a -> 11%" "haplogroups I, R1a, and R1b"). I'm guessing this is the same theory based on an alternative theoretical proposal by Euro-tricksters call REP (Repeat Event Polymorphisms) vs. UEP (Unique Event Polymorphisms)? Anyone with strong critical thinking skills with intuition and knowing the difference between the "repeat" and "unique" might accurately guess how this new trick might work. I know I did only to be proven correct as I intimately immersed myself into personally uncovering the tricks of CHM (Cohen Module Haplotype) in detail.

Who knows, maybe in the near future as the planets align correctly, I will breakdown the entire unproven CHM theory step-by-step and show exactly why this trick is championed and benefits European history jacking and dividing Black Africans into "you are better than" groups. Especially some Jews trying to artificially and synthetically place themselves where they don't belong. [Think Lemba and Igbo tribes re-visited]. I guess the result of Belgians using this "you are better than" propaganda initiating the Tutsi and the Hutu war, obviously didn't teach some people any valuable lessons.

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Djehuti
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^ Kemson, you make no sense. All your ranting does not refute the fact that these tests come from modern Greek populations and that MRCA analysis show that that they are the descendants of ancient Greeks who are in turn descendants of paleolithic ancestors.

There is no use in arguing with you. We have had this argument before and as usual, no substantianl evidence is accepted by you. So there is really no point in arguing any more.

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Kemson
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Your incompetence is getting to you as it should. You lack depth and only filled with fluff. Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) you'll mature.
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Djehuti
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^ The only thing that has gotten to me is your ignorance and foolishness, but not that much as I am used to it in this forum. [Wink]

I am already mature and most of all sensible and even-headed to accept substantial evidence and facts, unlike you. But oh well.

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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Kemson
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Good. I'm glad you think you're mature, "sensible and even-headed". Thinking of what you aren't is an ok start; all that remains now is to make it a reality.
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Lord of the Nile
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


I am already mature and most of all sensible and even-headed to accept substantial evidence and facts, unlike you. But oh well.

Kemson is right. You have no argument to present. And immaturity is your first name.

The Lord

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Djehuti
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^ Correction, it is Kemson who has no argument to present or rather no evidence to present that ancient Greeks were black Africans.
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Marc Washington
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http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Gods.MotherGoddeses/02-16g-700-00-05.html

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http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/700_mediterranean/02-16-iliad.html

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http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/700_mediterranean/02-16-700-02.html

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The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation.

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Marc Washington
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http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/01-09-800-00-02.html

There are those that say that whites were always in Europe. This isn't true. Whites began in the Steppes and migrated to Europe. Please produce some hard proof if you claim otherwise.

The issue of whites being early in Greece came up in this thread and the terminology used to describe the "Greeks" makes no distinction between its indigenous African population (who were the original Archea but their art became the style of Classical Greek art though with white subjects - often. After Alexander slaughtered most African men in Athens and environs). The first big presence of whites in Greece was the Doric invasion which set Greece into a Dark Age that lastest a full thousand years. What language did the Doric people speak if they completely absorbed the African and Semitic languages together called "Greek?"

There are statues and art to be found of the white Greeks though they often had African sculpturers create these for them as did Alexander have his own so made. Most white art in Greece is found after Alexander. But, as did the Christians and Moslems, when Alexander came, he destroyed much of what he could lay his hands on and then rebuilt. So, the African heritage, though considerable and present today in sculpture in Ancient Greece of pre-Alexander days, is a pittance of what it once was after whites came, destroyed, and claimed.

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The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation.

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Marc Washington
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This comment is made in reference to an earlier one in this thread where someone said that white Greeks were the first and dominant prescence in Greece. History records a different story than that.

It's more than one map above showing the same thing - whites did not originate in Europe! The maps above both show a movement into Europe by whites at the blue star. Europe was a destination, not origination. The italicized comment that Europeans did not originate in Europe is not from me. It is taken from: Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov, Scientific American, March 1990.

And language?: There is not a single scientist who says that whites had a language in the Russian Steppes and much less an/the Indo-European language. They took that from Anatolia. In Anatolia were found African peoples who had been there for many thousands of years and in Catal Huyuk pioneered agriculture, settlements, pastoralism. Such words are the language of the IE but it is not what they brought from the Steppes. The so-called IE language was Hatti spoken by the Hatti peoples, Africans and must be an African language (i.e. language by Africans).

By the way, where are all the Africans that were there before whites arrived? And how did the whites arrive with nothing but leave with cattle and other capital they first met in Anatolia.

Here is what Mellaart has to say about the population of Anatolia before whites came:

The physical types appear to be depicted which may reflect the two dolicocephalic races recognized by the late Professor M. Senyurek in the skeletons from Hacilar; the robust Eurafrican race and the more gracile Proto-Mediterranean race. These naturalistic statues serve as a link between those of Catal Huyuk and the later, larger and more conventional group from Hacilar V-II.

Now, proto-Mediterranean means indigenous people before encountering Steppe populations that would produce the late-in-history lighter-skinned Mediterranean types. Proto-Mediterranean is code language for African.

James Mellaart, Earliest civilizations of the Near East, (Thames and Hudson, London, 1965), p. 8.

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The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation.

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Djehuti
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