posted
^ They appear to be Asiatics. As to what specific group, I don't have no idea. Is there any clue such as hieroglyphs that can indicate who those people were?
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fragment of a battle scene Thebes, Asasif, Dynasty 18, probably reign of Thutmosis IV (ca. 1400-1390 B.C.) Painted sandstone, 24 x 45 1/4 in. Rogers Fund, 1913 13.180.21
Originally posted by PEPI_KHEM:
Very reminescent of Ramses II battle against allied Hittites and Syrians at Qadesh. Until further research reveals otherwise I'd say they're Syrian.
As far as the battle at Qadesh goes, the Hittites' Levantine allies per AE record of the event were of * Aradus * Cherb * Ekeret * Keshkesh * Kizwanda * Irun * Mese * Pedes * Qadesh * Reke
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ They appear to be Asiatics. As to what specific group, I don't have no idea. Is there any clue such as hieroglyphs that can indicate who those people were?
Djehuti, You are absolutely right on this one!
The Ancient Egyptians did not just draw pictures; pictures were merely illustrations to a TEXT. Only hieroglypics (ie, WRITING) can tell us who these folks were.
It's funny that most people seem to not understand that Ancient Egyptian stone carvings on the temples, tombs, and elsewhere were created mainly due to the fragility of paper and the almost invincibility of stone (although stone, too, was subject to plagiarism and revisionism).
The written word was the foundation for recording and preserving history (ie, find the text that describes this scene, pepi_khem, and your question is answered, as Djehuti has astutely pointed out)...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Met photo is but one fragment of a larger so far unavailable scene and it has no text. The Met isn't even sure of the fragment's provenance. That being the case it's going to take detective work to propose a precise plausible ethnicity for the depicted.
Puyemre's tomb, also of the 15th century, has a painting of men dressed exactly like those in the above graphic and with the exact same hairstyles.
They bring much tax in gold hoop form and are described as the insignificant Mesen foreigners. Mesen being the plural form of Mese in my last post.
I invite the cooperation of anyone willing to apply themselves to actually doing the work of tracking down any info related to identifying the folk in Pepi_Khem's supplied jpeg.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not very familiar with ancient paintings, but for sure I can tell the difference between African paintings and foreign paintings, AE as other Africans don't have much body hair unlike Europeans and West Asians, that's why it's very rare to see AE with beard, it's very difficult for Africans to grow full beard...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Whites from the Steppes appear to have been white as snow as far north populations in Europe often are today. Steppe people migrated southward and mixed with Africans. Are what we call red or brown-skinned Asiatics (the portion of Asiatics at that time without purely African or white features) offspring of both Africans and whites? Those of the fragment above being representative of a population of offspring with such mixed parentage offspring?
Janusz Makkay, The early Mycenaen rulers and the contemporary early Iranians of the Northeast, (Makkay, Budapest, 2000), speaks about such mixed parentage populations which started Mediterranean (I'd say a code word for African in earliest history) and ended up, I'd say, with some populations such as those in the above fragment. Mixed, but otherwise indeterminant, probably?
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: I'm not very familiar with ancient paintings, but for sure I can tell the difference between African paintings and foreign paintings, AE as other Africans don't have much body hair unlike Europeans and West Asians, that's why it's very rare to see AE with beard, it's very difficult for Africans to grow full beard...
Are you saying it's rare for African men to grow full beards? This makes little sense (as usual) for I have seen plenty!
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am not sure what ethinicty you are Djehuti but. . .it is a known fact that Africans and there new world decendants are far less hairy than Europeans. . . .ie less body hair . . . ie full beard. Being a decendant and comeing in contact with thousands in my lifetime I will say Africa I is correct.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ ignoring the Marc nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by AFRICA I: I'm not very familiar with ancient paintings, but for sure I can tell the difference between African paintings and foreign paintings, AE as other Africans don't have much body hair unlike Europeans and West Asians, that's why it's very rare to see AE with beard, it's very difficult for Africans to grow full beard...
Are you saying it's rare for African men to grow full beards? This makes little sense (as usual) for I have seen plenty!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ I never said anything about hairy bodies, just facial hair. I didn't say it was common, but that I have seen Africans with full beards although not as full as Middle-Easterners/Southwest Asians.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I call it Djehuti sauce, any Black African know that we don't have much facial hear...you sound like a knowledgeable person, but sometime you really disappoint me...use your brain, why Africans, especially the most tropically adapted have less hair than other human beings including Asians...answer my question? Why Egyptians didn't portray themselves with beards but painted leucoderm foreigners with beards....for a Black African it's too obvious, but you still struggle understanding Black African morphology and other attributes...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Full beards is a custom and culture of the populations from that region. It predates Islam and Judaism, but became a predominant feature of both. Long hair was a sign of strength and manliness and can be seen in the stories of Samson from the bible. Egyptians had a different culture and different traditions on grooming of hair. That does NOT mean that they could not grow long beards, but that they preferred NOT TO as being clean shaven or having small tufted or woven beards was the custom of the land.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
AS I SAID. Africans GENERALLY have LESS body hair than Europeans ie LESS facial hair. LESS = not all. Besides my personal observation I have seen studies that show that.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I concur with Doug. Although I get what some of you guys are saying, that many African men tend to have facial hair that is more sparse or non at all. In fact, most pharaohs wore false beards that were attached to the chin by a strap.
All I'm saying is that I have seen more than my share of exceptions of black/African men with full beards, though not as full or as long as Asiatic/Arab men. In fact, I have seen predynastic miniature sculptures dating back to the late Badarian period which depict male heads sporting full beards. (Can anyone find this for me?)
But again I ask, how did the topic of the identity of those Asiatics in the portrait venture to whether or not Egyptians or Africans in general can sport full beards?? Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Because no one wants to do the difficult of deductive reasoning necessary to precisely identify those Levantines (for lack of text in association with the frieze).
Nonetheless they have tentively been shown to be Mesen until other researchers reveal a different ethnic moniker for them.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ And who are the Mesen? Better yet who are all the other ethnic groups you listed: Aradus, Cherb, Ekeret, Keshkesh, Kizwanda, Irun.
Another thing I forgot to ask is if the men in the portrait were all of one ethnic group, as two of the men in the front contrast-- one slightly ligther in complexion with more clothing, shorter hair, and no fillet, while the other has darker complexion, shirtless, with longer hair and a fillet.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
You can do as I have for texts a - examine contemporaneous AE texts concerning Hatti & Levantine conquests b - note the ethnonyms
Then do the following for imagery 1 - analyse Khem_Pepi's given fragment 2 - pore through hundreds of AE artworks 3 - minutely compare the represented peoples 4 - put aside any matching portraiture 5 - translate the mdw ntjr 6 - note the ethnonyms
Having done that you can then research each ethnonym for more available information about them because no one's paying me to do it for them.
Or else do your own labor intensive research and report back with your findings only to have those not doing the same hard work question it and send you out to gather and share more than what you graciously have already given them to start with and what no one else has bothered to pitch in with what they have come up with on their own.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you guys for the answer, does anybody have more information about this event, Notice allso the men in the white shirt having an arrow in his belly, Allso notice the next from him having a white row in his hair, I have seen pictures where Egyptians & Nubians allso having the white row in their heir..
-------------------- Returned from exile Posts: 77 | From: AMSTERDAM | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ The white 'row' or headband is called a fillet by scholars. I believe it to be an item associated with Afrasian speakers as it is especially common among peoples in the Horn. (Although a poster shows it is also found among other non-Afrasian speaking Africans).
As to Takruri, what you suggest will do but it's gonna take some time.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
West Africans usually especially Nigerians from what I have seen always have beards usually. Whereas East Africans usually have less possibility of growing beards.
In my own family my maternal side don't get beards at all, but my paternal side are 50/50 some with a beard that looks like a goatey literally!
Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic