quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Rasol I gave the same answer that Diop gave, 1)the speakers of Berber languages come from Arabia; and 2) they have been influenced by the Germanic languages, probably as a result of the Vandal invasion.
^ Yes, and genetics and linguistics have proven that this answer false, as Berber primary lineages originate in Africa, not Arabia, or Germany.
Linguistics backs this up, as their are no Berber languages in Germany or Arabia, nor is Germanic or Arabic regarded by any linguist as and ancestor of Berber.
So your pseudo-citation is outdated and your answer is wrong.
Genetics only deal with people living in the areas where samples are taken today, they have little insight on the past unless the samples come from ancient skeletal sources.
The linguistic evidence is clear Berber languages may be related to the Semitic group because they originated in Arabia. The languages show little resemblence to Black African languages like Egyptian.
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quote:Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT: According to late Beja specialist Werner Vycichl, Beja has three ways of expressing plural, reduplication (not found often), last vowel shortening & suffixation of -a. The two former, although not based on the same exact pattern of Semitic, are clearly non-concatenative, hence dissimilar to Old Egyptian suffixation.
Chapter VI, pp. 88-89
code:
Some examples of Berber "broken" plural formation: aghiul "ass"; pl ighial asgass "year"; pl.isgassen ir'allen "arm"; pl. ir'allen illi "daughter"; issi "pl."
Again Berber is totally different from Egyptian: s3t "daughter"; pl. s3wt ib "heart"; pl. ibw
How can one claim that Hamito-Semitic does actually exist relying on this?
The dual is frequently used in Akkadian, Ugaritic & Arabic, which may suggest that it is only secondary in other Semitic languages.
code:
Akkadian: -aan (dative), een (genitive), iin (accusative); Ugaritic: -aami (nominative), eemi (genitive/accusative) Hebraic: -ayn Syriac: -En~-een (only found as a retention in two words) Ethiopian: -ee (only found in a few cases) Arabic: -aani(nominative) -ayni (genitive/accusative)
While Berber doesn't make grammatical use of dual, it seems to agree with Semitic in occurrences of natural pairs (suffixes -in,-en, -an for dual are also found in Semitic) :
code:
adar "foot" pl.idaren tit "eye" pl. allen aDalis "lip" pl. dilsan (Ghadamès) aDaluy "lip" pl. iDlay "lips" (Ahaggar)
Semitic languages originally marked three principal cases:
There is however a class of words whose both genitive and accusative are formed with the same suffix -a.
In Egyptian, Pharaonic and Coptic there are absolutely no traces of casual marking. Why would the most archaic synchrony of Egyptian have lost any trace of Proto-Hamito-Semitic as Akkadian (a language contemporary to Pharaonic Egyptian) did?
The truth is that Hamito-Semitic does not exist. This is a myth with no morphological basis. A myth that must be destroyed by the real science.
MTC.
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quote:Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT: Erratum: Of course, at the end of my last post, I meant "why would have Akkadian retained the casual marking system while Egyptian didn't at all?" & vice versa.
Hence, there are forms with: -an initial sh: Akkadian & Southern Arabian (except Sabean) -an initial h (for the rest, except Ethiopian) (while Ethiopian dropped the initial h and then evolved from 'wu>wu>wE & 'iy>yi>yE and the following suffixation of the final element -tii/tuu)
The two forms are of Proto-Semitic origin, but which one is the earlier? There is no consensus on the question.
However, those forms are completely absent in Egyptian from Pharaonic to Coptic where there are no gutturals nor post-alveolar fricatives, only s (feminine sing.), f (masculine singular), and sn (plural) for the personal suffix pronoun; sw, sy, sn, st (masculine & feminine singular, masculine & feminine plural), for the deopendent personal pronouns; ntf, nts, ntsn for the independent personal pronouns.
Berber's dependent personal pronouns are the following:
The Berber suffix pronouns (s (singular), sn (pl. masc), snt (pl. fem.), agree a bit with Egyptian, but this a superficial resemblance: Berber doesn't have the Egyptian f.
Wolof has the same forms for the third person , singular & plural; Obenga cites Serge Sauneron who said that the resemblance cannot be due to chance and is thus necessarily due to a common origin of the two languages.
Egyptian has no relative pronouns while Semitic & Berber have.
glose Semitic Egyptian Berber sun shmsh (common Semitic) r’, re tafukt year sn (Lihyanitic) rnpt rompE rompi asggas shaanaa (Hebrew) sanat (Arabic) place macom (Phoenician) +maqam bw, ma ida night Arabic layl grH, D3w iD Ethiopian leelit Hebrew luun, liin Ugaritic lyn name +sumum, samum rn, ran, ren, lAn, lEn ism, isEm take ! Sabat ! (Akkadian) m, mi, mo ameZ ear sinn (Arabic) msDr ameZZugh sEn (Ethiopian) teeth Akkadian uzun Tst axs Assyrian uzan Hebrew ‘ozen Arabic ‘uDn Ethiopian ‘Ezn brother Akkadian axu sn, son g-ma, ait-ma (pl.) Ugaritic ax Hebrew ‘aaH Syriac ‘aHaa Arabic ‘ax Epigraphic South Arabian ‘x Ethiopian ‘Exw (labialized x) to enter Akkadian ‘rb ‘q, 3q, ook ekSem Hebrew ‘rb Syriac ‘rb Arabic Grb Epigraphic South Arabian Grb black ‘aswad (Arabic) km, kamE, kEmi isgin, isggan, istif, dlu, bexxen blood dam (common Semitic) snf, snfw, snof idammen beautiful Hasan (Arabic) nfr, nofre, nofri iga shbab, iga zzin, fulki eternity ‘almiin (Eastern Syriac) D.t, nHH, EnEh god il (Ugaritic) nTr, nutE, nuti, noutE rEbbi (Arabic Allah) soul Hebrew nepesh b3, bai RroH, laRuaH (pl.) Syriac napsha Arabic nafs Ethiopian nafs river naaru (Akkadian) itrw asif hand yd, yad (common Semitic) Dr.t, ‘ (« arm ») ufus, afus house bayit (Hebrew) pr tigemmi head +ra’sh common Semitic tp, apE, afE agayyu, ixf reeshu Akkadian roosh Hebrew ra’s Arabic
In conclusion, the results of a strict linguistic analysis are the following :
-There are no parallels between Semitic, Berber and Egyptian regarding consonantic structure, grammatical gender, formation of dual and plural, declination, casual morphologies, personal and relative pronouns.
-About verbal themes, the use of reduplication does not have the same extension in Egyptian and in Semitic.
-Also, Egyptian doesn’t have the prefixal conjugation found and the derived compound verbal themes found in Semitic.
-The verbal forms sDm.f and sDm.n.f don’t exist in Semitic.
-Egyptian prepositions and conjunctions are not found in Semitic : Egyptian m « as, like » vs Akkadian ki(ma), Ugaritic k, Hebrew kE(moo), Syriac ‘ak, Arabic kaa, Ethiopian kEmaa « as, like » ; Egyptian xr « upon, above », vs Akkadian ‘l, Ugaritic ‘l, Syriac ‘al, Hebrew ‘al, Arabic ‘ala, Ethiopian la’la « upon, above ». Berber has zud~zund « as , like », and iggi « upon »
-Inherited lexical that can hardly be borrowed from a language to another (see examples above) even in a situation of cultural linguistic dominance are different in Semitic, Egyptian and Berber. Cardinal numbers (1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 20, 100, 1000) are also much different in the three language groups.
Hence, « Hamito-Semitic » or « Afro-Asiatic »[or Afrasian] is an illusion, a myth.
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so that means Egyptians are more related to sub-Saharids than to Semitics.
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posted
^ Useless repetition fallacy. When will you ever learn Dr. Winters that no matter how many times you repeat a fallacy it does not make it so.
quote:Originally posted by prmiddleeastern:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Do you not understand that the relations stem from common origin??! Afrasian is a genetic language phylum, meaning that all langauges are related because they all share a common origin or source, that being proto-Afrasian.
as the same to "racial"origins, or am I wrong.
"Race" or population origins is different from linguistic origins. For example Many people speak Indo-European languages like English in Africa and Spanish in the Americas yet the indigenous peoples of both regions obviously do not share population origins with the Europeans who introduced those languages. Now if you mean to say that linguistic origins are associated with a certain population that may be true, but you cannot trace its origins by the speakers themseslves as can be seen with the example I just gave. Another example would be the fact that Indo-European languages in the form of Indo-Aryan were spoken in India since ancient times. Does this mean ancient Indians share a common ancestry with Europeans? This was a belief that was once widespread (perpetuated by European scholars). Genetics shows this is not the case, but linguistics show the language still did not originate in India. Now linguistics also show that the Afrasian language phylum originated in Africa with Semitic being the only branch that was spoken outside of Africa, specifically Southwest Asia. All of this shows that language, as with many cultural traits do not necessarily have to be directly associated with a certain population or populations.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Useless repetition fallacy. When will you ever learn Dr. Winters that no matter how many times you repeat a fallacy it does not make it so.
quote:Originally posted by prmiddleeastern:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Do you not understand that the relations stem from common origin??! Afrasian is a genetic language phylum, meaning that all langauges are related because they all share a common origin or source, that being proto-Afrasian.
as the same to "racial"origins, or am I wrong.
"Race" or population origins is different from linguistic origins. For example Many people speak Indo-European languages like English in Africa and Spanish in the Americas yet the indigenous peoples of both regions obviously do not share population origins with the Europeans who introduced those languages. Now if you mean to say that linguistic origins are associated with a certain population that may be true, but you cannot trace its origins by the speakers themseslves as can be seen with the example I just gave. Another example would be the fact that Indo-European languages in the form of Indo-Aryan were spoken in India since ancient times. Does this mean ancient Indians share a common ancestry with Europeans? This was a belief that was once widespread (perpetuated by European scholars). Genetics shows this is not the case, but linguistics show the language still did not originate in India. Now linguistics also show that the Afrasian language phylum originated in Africa with Semitic being the only branch that was spoken outside of Africa, specifically Southwest Asia. All of this shows that language, as with many cultural traits do not necessarily have to be directly associated with a certain population or populations.
Now I see.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Useless repetition fallacy. When will you ever learn Dr. Winters that no matter how many times you repeat a fallacy it does not make it so.
quote:Originally posted by prmiddleeastern:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Do you not understand that the relations stem from common origin??! Afrasian is a genetic language phylum, meaning that all langauges are related because they all share a common origin or source, that being proto-Afrasian.
as the same to "racial"origins, or am I wrong.
"Race" or population origins is different from linguistic origins. For example Many people speak Indo-European languages like English in Africa and Spanish in the Americas yet the indigenous peoples of both regions obviously do not share population origins with the Europeans who introduced those languages. Now if you mean to say that linguistic origins are associated with a certain population that may be true, but you cannot trace its origins by the speakers themseslves as can be seen with the example I just gave. Another example would be the fact that Indo-European languages in the form of Indo-Aryan were spoken in India since ancient times. Does this mean ancient Indians share a common ancestry with Europeans? This was a belief that was once widespread (perpetuated by European scholars). Genetics shows this is not the case, but linguistics show the language still did not originate in India. Now linguistics also show that the Afrasian language phylum originated in Africa with Semitic being the only branch that was spoken outside of Africa, specifically Southwest Asia. All of this shows that language, as with many cultural traits do not necessarily have to be directly associated with a certain population or populations.
The above explanation is badly flawed. First off, there is no such thing as Afriasian. It is “Negro-Egyptian” as defined by world renowned linguist and archeologist Dr. Théophile Obenga.
No original language can be fully adopted by another group of people without the language being corrupted in some ways. Because of this you can trace the origin of the people based on the language they speak. Scientifically (anthropologically), languages laced formed with adopted foreign tongues can be can be used to where the speakers of the "hybrid" language may have come from. I a perfect example of this is Creole spoken in Haiti which is a mixture of West African languages and French; Or Jamaican Creole which is a mixture of West African languages and English. Another Creole language spoken in Nigeria, called Pidgin English, which is a combination of African languages and English; and strikes very similar to Jamaican Creole, shows another example of a "hybrid" language which can be deciphered to trace the possible origin of the people by comparing and matching contents of which make up the hybrid language in study. Another example of this would be “Gee-chi” African American Creole spoken by Blacks in the U.S. which mixes English and many languages from West Africa. In addition to this, Swahili which is spoken groups like the Lou in Kenya and many other parts of Africa has touches of Arabic influences but the root foundation of the language is Bantu. Therefore, the idea that people's origin cannot be traced simply because one people group adopts/mixes another people group's language is illogical and cannot be taking seriously by normal critical thinking individuals. And coming from certain individuals, such flaws in logic can be viewed as a bold face lie all part of the Eurocentric attempt to deny the obvious origins of Black Africans in West Africa and other parts of Africa today. The redundant and erroneous acrobatic detractions are slowly crawling to a halt.
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Antonio Loprieno 306, 125, 153, 200 Faulkner 151 Gardiner 37 James P Allan 462 Budge 430a Example 1 ELEKEA (EREKEA) Know, perceive, comprehend and understand Ancient Egyptian: rkh MB } know, become acquainted, understand or learn As stated the consonants l and r may be interchanged without loss in meaning. The Ancient Egyptian word given by the consonants rkh is derived from the Kiswahili- Bantu word elea, be clear, be intelligible to one, that is understand what one says. This is also given by the Southern-Soto-Bantu language as ela, to become clear. The Kiswahili-Bantu form elekea or elewa means to understand, to know or realise. If the consonant l is used instead of consonant r, one obtains the correct Ancient Egyptian form given as erekea.
Antonio Loprieno 307 Gardiner 3 Gardiner 154 James P Allan 467 Example 2 SIMBA Be healthy, strong, powerful, strength, force, power, authority, a lion Ancient Egyptian: snb e t q } be healthy This is an extremely interesting word for it highlights the difficulty in maintaining the correct sound/meaning relationship between words. Sir Alan Gardiner maintains that this word is of Semitic origin and approximates the word to the Arabic salima, be healthy. One can refer to this on page 3, Egyptian Grammar.
If Sir Allan Gardiner had the knowledge of Bantu languages he would have given a different interpretation. You see this word snb gives a closer consonantal match to smb than the consonants in salima, slm. The Shona-Bantu word simba may be used as a verb giving: be healthy and strong. As a noun simba means a lion, strength, force, power, authority. Simba is the Kiswahili-Bantu word for a lion. The proto-Bantu word for a lion is cimba and simba is derived from this word.
Gardiner 137 Example3 WANA Be, possess, have being, exist Ancient Egyptian: wn Jt being
The Proto-Bantu word for to be is ba. The Kiswahili-Bantu word is wa. To be is to have being. This is expressed in Kiswahili-Bantu as wa+na, giving wa-na, wana, to be with, be, to possess, to have being, to exist. Gardiner 183
Example 4 PANIA (PANYA) Rat, small rat, mouse Ancient Egyptian: pnw #t bK] mouse The Kiswahili-Bantu word for a small rat, mouse is given as panya or pania, with a slight variation of the consonantal ending in w. Faulkner 116
Example 5 MZAA (MSAA) One who gives birth, a mother Ancient Egyptian: ms-t a !r mother This is given in Kiswahili-Bantu as mzaa or msaa, one who begets or gives birth, a mother. The feminine ending t may be given as ti. Refer to gender nouns coming soon.
Faulkner 138 Example 6 KUUKUU Aged, old Ancient Egyptian: nkhkh t B B 3 be old, old age This is given as kuukuu. The Ancient Egyptian form would be n-kuukuu. Faulkner 138 Budge 389a
Example 7 M-KOTA A very strong man Ancient Egyptian: nkht t #! 8! strong man, champion The Kiswahili-Bantu word m-kota means a strong man, a gigantic person. The word is derived from Proto-Bantu kod, be strong, be hard, additional meaning, koda, strength. Obviously the Ancient Egyptians would have used n-kota instead of m-kota.
Faulkner 195 Example 8 KUNDA (KUNJA) Fold, wrap, bend or twist Ancient Egyptian: khnd Bt fM bend, twist together flower stems The Kiswahili-Bantu language uses either of the words kunda or kunja to mean, bend, twist or fold. Proto-Bantu form kun, fold.
Faulkner 195 Example 9 KU-ENDA Walk, go, tread Ancient Egyptian: khnd Bt fo tread ways The Kiswahili-Bantu word enda, ku-enda, means to go, walk, go on foot, depart. Proto-Bantu form genda, walk, travel, or go away.
Faulkner 105 Example 10 MVUA Rain, water Ancient Egyptian mw ttt water, rain The Kiswahili-Bantu word for rain is mvua. To my knowledge the Ancient Egyptians did not use the consonant v instead the consonant w was used.
Faulkner 98 Example 11 FUKA A porridge type meal Ancient Egyptian: fqa hn!; a cake Fuka is a porridge type meal, made from rice flour, with sugar and honey. In the scheme of things it could be considered a cake.
Faulkner 87 Antonio Loprieno 305, 49, 57, 59 Example 12 PAA Roof Ancient Egyptian: p-t #! R canopy, sky, heaven A canopy is a covering and performs a similar function to a roof. The Kiswahili- Bantu word paa means, a roof. The Ancient Egyptian word p-t contains the word paa followed by the feminine t. Hence the word would be pronounced as paa-ti.
Antonio Loprieno 60 Faulkner 219 Example 13 KA-SUBA Sun Ancient Egyptian: sba e q!_V star The Bemba-Bantu word for the sun is given as ka-suba derived from the Proto-Bantu word for the sun juba, ba means to shine.
References: Ancient Egyptian Grammar by Sir Alan Gardiner A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian by Raymond Faulkner The Origin of Language by Merritt Ruhlen Standard Shona Dictionary by M Hannan Middle Egyptian by James P Allen Ancient Egypt a Linguistic Introduction by Antonio Loprieno A Dictionary of the Kiswahili Language by Rev. Dr. L. Krapf Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics Dictionary by W Budge Civilisation and Barbarism by Cheik Anta Diop Ancient Egypt and Black Africa by Theophile Obenga Kiswahili: People, Language, Literature by Assibi Apatewon Amidu The Manifestation of Gender in some African languages by Lioba Moshi Swahili Grammar by E. O. Ashton Foundations in Southern African Linguistics edited by Robert K. Herbert Luganda English dictionary by R.A Snoxall Southern- Soto English dictionary by, R. A Paroz BLR 3 - Bantu Lexical Reconstructions 3
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quote:Genetics only deal with people living in the areas where samples are taken today, they have little insight on the past unless the samples come from ancient skeletal sources.
The above probably sounds intuitively true to many a layperson.
However it actually makes no sense.
Every person carries their genetic history in their own blood.
In fact, genetics is the *only* literal way of a assessing the geneology of any organism.
Berber is native to Africa.
It does not come from Germany, or Arabia, based on genetics, and based upon linguistics.
Best you can do, is attack genetics because it debunks you, while appealing to out-dated sources that genetics and current linguistics have both mooted.
And that's pretty weak stuff, in my opinion.
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Antonio Loprieno 306, 125, 153, 200 Faulkner 151 Gardiner 37 James P Allan 462 Budge 430a Example 1 ELEKEA (EREKEA) Know, perceive, comprehend and understand Ancient Egyptian: rkh MB } know, become acquainted, understand or learn As stated the consonants l and r may be interchanged without loss in meaning. The Ancient Egyptian word given by the consonants rkh is derived from the Kiswahili- Bantu word elea, be clear, be intelligible to one, that is understand what one says. This is also given by the Southern-Soto-Bantu language as ela, to become clear. The Kiswahili-Bantu form elekea or elewa means to understand, to know or realise. If the consonant l is used instead of consonant r, one obtains the correct Ancient Egyptian form given as erekea.
Antonio Loprieno 307 Gardiner 3 Gardiner 154 James P Allan 467 Example 2 SIMBA Be healthy, strong, powerful, strength, force, power, authority, a lion Ancient Egyptian: snb e t q } be healthy This is an extremely interesting word for it highlights the difficulty in maintaining the correct sound/meaning relationship between words. Sir Alan Gardiner maintains that this word is of Semitic origin and approximates the word to the Arabic salima, be healthy. One can refer to this on page 3, Egyptian Grammar.
If Sir Allan Gardiner had the knowledge of Bantu languages he would have given a different interpretation. You see this word snb gives a closer consonantal match to smb than the consonants in salima, slm. The Shona-Bantu word simba may be used as a verb giving: be healthy and strong. As a noun simba means a lion, strength, force, power, authority. Simba is the Kiswahili-Bantu word for a lion. The proto-Bantu word for a lion is cimba and simba is derived from this word.
Gardiner 137 Example3 WANA Be, possess, have being, exist Ancient Egyptian: wn Jt being
The Proto-Bantu word for to be is ba. The Kiswahili-Bantu word is wa. To be is to have being. This is expressed in Kiswahili-Bantu as wa+na, giving wa-na, wana, to be with, be, to possess, to have being, to exist. Gardiner 183
Example 4 PANIA (PANYA) Rat, small rat, mouse Ancient Egyptian: pnw #t bK] mouse The Kiswahili-Bantu word for a small rat, mouse is given as panya or pania, with a slight variation of the consonantal ending in w. Faulkner 116
Example 5 MZAA (MSAA) One who gives birth, a mother Ancient Egyptian: ms-t a !r mother This is given in Kiswahili-Bantu as mzaa or msaa, one who begets or gives birth, a mother. The feminine ending t may be given as ti. Refer to gender nouns coming soon.
Faulkner 138 Example 6 KUUKUU Aged, old Ancient Egyptian: nkhkh t B B 3 be old, old age This is given as kuukuu. The Ancient Egyptian form would be n-kuukuu. Faulkner 138 Budge 389a
Example 7 M-KOTA A very strong man Ancient Egyptian: nkht t #! 8! strong man, champion The Kiswahili-Bantu word m-kota means a strong man, a gigantic person. The word is derived from Proto-Bantu kod, be strong, be hard, additional meaning, koda, strength. Obviously the Ancient Egyptians would have used n-kota instead of m-kota.
Faulkner 195 Example 8 KUNDA (KUNJA) Fold, wrap, bend or twist Ancient Egyptian: khnd Bt fM bend, twist together flower stems The Kiswahili-Bantu language uses either of the words kunda or kunja to mean, bend, twist or fold. Proto-Bantu form kun, fold.
Faulkner 195 Example 9 KU-ENDA Walk, go, tread Ancient Egyptian: khnd Bt fo tread ways The Kiswahili-Bantu word enda, ku-enda, means to go, walk, go on foot, depart. Proto-Bantu form genda, walk, travel, or go away.
Faulkner 105 Example 10 MVUA Rain, water Ancient Egyptian mw ttt water, rain The Kiswahili-Bantu word for rain is mvua. To my knowledge the Ancient Egyptians did not use the consonant v instead the consonant w was used.
Faulkner 98 Example 11 FUKA A porridge type meal Ancient Egyptian: fqa hn!; a cake Fuka is a porridge type meal, made from rice flour, with sugar and honey. In the scheme of things it could be considered a cake.
Faulkner 87 Antonio Loprieno 305, 49, 57, 59 Example 12 PAA Roof Ancient Egyptian: p-t #! R canopy, sky, heaven A canopy is a covering and performs a similar function to a roof. The Kiswahili- Bantu word paa means, a roof. The Ancient Egyptian word p-t contains the word paa followed by the feminine t. Hence the word would be pronounced as paa-ti.
Antonio Loprieno 60 Faulkner 219 Example 13 KA-SUBA Sun Ancient Egyptian: sba e q!_V star The Bemba-Bantu word for the sun is given as ka-suba derived from the Proto-Bantu word for the sun juba, ba means to shine.
References: Ancient Egyptian Grammar by Sir Alan Gardiner A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian by Raymond Faulkner The Origin of Language by Merritt Ruhlen Standard Shona Dictionary by M Hannan Middle Egyptian by James P Allen Ancient Egypt a Linguistic Introduction by Antonio Loprieno A Dictionary of the Kiswahili Language by Rev. Dr. L. Krapf Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics Dictionary by W Budge Civilisation and Barbarism by Cheik Anta Diop Ancient Egypt and Black Africa by Theophile Obenga Kiswahili: People, Language, Literature by Assibi Apatewon Amidu The Manifestation of Gender in some African languages by Lioba Moshi Swahili Grammar by E. O. Ashton Foundations in Southern African Linguistics edited by Robert K. Herbert Luganda English dictionary by R.A Snoxall Southern- Soto English dictionary by, R. A Paroz BLR 3 - Bantu Lexical Reconstructions 3
^ Very good. One of the better posts on the subject.
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quote:The above explanation is badly flawed. First off, there is no such thing as Afriasian.
I prefer the term Afrisan, the term Asiatic gives a distorted and biased impression of the language, but of course by whatever name you choose, it exists.
quote: It is “Negro-Egyptian” as defined by world renowned linguist and archeologist Dr. Théophile Obenga.
^ The parent posts claim that Bantu is a closer relation to MDW NTR than the other languages of North Africa would be more plausible if a chronology/map could be produced similar to the following based on Ehret's thesis.....
Can you explain in your own words what languages link the physically separated Bantu and Afrisan languages, or.... what historical processes account for the odd geographical relationship....
posted
Antonio Loprieno 306, 125, 153, 200 Faulkner 151 Gardiner 37 James P Allan 462 Budge 430a Example 1 ELEKEA (EREKEA) Know, perceive, comprehend and understand Ancient Egyptian: rkh MB } know, become acquainted, understand or learn As stated the consonants l and r may be interchanged without loss in meaning. The Ancient Egyptian word given by the consonants rkh is derived from the Kiswahili- Bantu word elea, be clear, be intelligible to one, that is understand what one says. This is also given by the Southern-Soto-Bantu language as ela, to become clear. The Kiswahili-Bantu form elekea or elewa means to understand, to know or realise. If the consonant l is used instead of consonant r, one obtains the correct Ancient Egyptian form given as erekea.
Question: is this “MB” supposed to go with “rkh” ? Its role please!
Perhaps, as the author notes, one can make a tenuous argument about ‘l’ taking the place of ‘r’ or vice versa in derivative term, but the question is, what evidence is the author going by, to suggest that the presumably Egyptic term ‘rkh’ derived from Kiswahili-Bantu word “elekea”? Proto-Bantu languages, as one of the later offshoots from the Niger-Congo superphylum have been deemed to date later than ancient Egyptian, let alone Kiswahili.
Also, what indicates to us, that the “rkh”, is pronounced as “erekea”, any more than possibility of it sounding as “rekah”, “rokuh”, “rikah”, and any number of alternatives with distinct vowel substitutions? A reconstructed proto-term for this term, and the basis provided for this reconstructed proto-term may well be instructive. So, tentative at this point!
Antonio Loprieno 307 Gardiner 3 Gardiner 154 James P Allan 467 Example 2 SIMBA Be healthy, strong, powerful, strength, force, power, authority, a lion Ancient Egyptian: snb e t q } be healthy This is an extremely interesting word for it highlights the difficulty in maintaining the correct sound/meaning relationship between words. Sir Alan Gardiner maintains that this word is of Semitic origin and approximates the word to the Arabic salima, be healthy. One can refer to this on page 3, Egyptian Grammar.
If Sir Allan Gardiner had the knowledge of Bantu languages he would have given a different interpretation. You see this word snb gives a closer consonantal match to smb than the consonants in salima, slm. The Shona-Bantu word simba may be used as a verb giving: be healthy and strong. As a noun simba means a lion, strength, force, power, authority. Simba is the Kiswahili-Bantu word for a lion. The proto-Bantu word for a lion is cimba and simba is derived from this word.
Question: Again, does ‘t’, ‘e’ and ‘q’ in any way go together with ‘snb’; if so, in what ways respectively?
I agree with the authors observation here, about the weak link between the said Semitic term ‘slm’ and Egyptic ‘snb’, as put forth by Gardiner, but then again, Gardiner may be doing something similar to what the present author did in the first example, ‘rkh’ where it is presumed that certain consonant terms were able to be replaced without loss of meaning. Not having access to Gardiner’s reasoning for this connection, I can only assume that he too, might have looked at it from the standpoint, that ‘n’ in ‘snb’ replaced the ‘l’ in ‘slm’, and likewise ‘b’ replaced ‘m’ - hence, fair game.
Besides, could ‘snb’ just as be pronounced as ‘saneb’, ‘senab‘, ‘soonab’, ‘sinab’, ‘senabi’, ‘saneba’, and any number of alternatives via distinct vowel consonants- no? What Nile Valley linguistic indicators give us a clue about the tonal nature of this term? So tentative!
Gardiner 137 Example3 WANA Be, possess, have being, exist Ancient Egyptian: wn Jt being
The Proto-Bantu word for to be is ba. The Kiswahili-Bantu word is wa. To be is to have being. This is expressed in Kiswahili-Bantu as wa+na, giving wa-na, wana, to be with, be, to possess, to have being, to exist.
OF the examples thus provided, this seems to be the closest to similarities in word structure. Lol, what is ‘to have being’ supposed to mean; the usual saying is ‘to be’ or quite simply, ‘being’. However, when one goes with the proto-Bantu term ‘ba‘, and the Kiswahili ‘wa’, this word correlation tends to relatively weaken.
Example 4 PANIA (PANYA) Rat, small rat, mouse Ancient Egyptian: pnw #t bK] mouse The Kiswahili-Bantu word for a small rat, mouse is given as panya or pania, with a slight variation of the consonantal ending in w.
I suppose one can argue for an evolution, to account for the observed consonantal variation.
Example 5 MZAA (MSAA) One who gives birth, a mother Ancient Egyptian: ms-t a !r mother This is given in Kiswahili-Bantu as mzaa or msaa, one who begets or gives birth, a mother. The feminine ending t may be given as ti. Refer to gender nouns coming soon.
Pending clarification on the association of ‘a !r’, the situation here could be somewhat liked to that observed in Example 4., save for possible alternative phonology for ‘mst’; e.g. ‘masat’, ‘msat’, ‘mosit’, and so forth - pending specific corroboration as to why it can only be read in one way or the other. A proto-term for this Egyptic term or an etymological reconstruction of the term may shed light on this. Again tentative, pending requested corroboration.
Faulkner 138 Example 6 KUUKUU Aged, old Ancient Egyptian: nkhkh t B B 3 be old, old age This is given as kuukuu. The Ancient Egyptian form would be n-kuukuu. Faulkner 138 Budge 389a
Same question as above: ‘t’ noted here; is it associated or not? ‘nkhkh’ would have to be one of those exception-to-the-rule terms, if we were to go with the idea that Ancient Egyptian is typical for consonant restrictions, as Kirsty Rowan would likely argue.
Example 7 M-KOTA A very strong man Ancient Egyptian: nkht t #! 8! strong man, champion The Kiswahili-Bantu word m-kota means a strong man, a gigantic person. The word is derived from Proto-Bantu kod, be strong, be hard, additional meaning, koda, strength. Obviously the Ancient Egyptians would have used n-kota instead of m-kota.
…or it could just as well be “nakohat”, “nkahat”, nakihat”, ‘nakohot’ etc. Again, specific independent corroboration for the Egyptic term is in order, to learn about its precise tonal nature, as well as that of its proposed “proto-term”. So again, tentative!
Faulkner 195 Example 8 KUNDA (KUNJA) Fold, wrap, bend or twist Ancient Egyptian: khnd Bt fM bend, twist together flower stems The Kiswahili-Bantu language uses either of the words kunda or kunja to mean, bend, twist or fold. Proto-Bantu form kun, fold.
Like other examples above, the role of “Bt” here , if any, has to be clarified. As for the situation here, it is no different from that in example 7, or others that precede it. There are clear distinctions in the structures of the terms, and so, the precise nature of the Egyptic term, will give us an idea of just how close it is supposed to be with respect to Kiswahili “Kunda (Kunja)”.
Faulkner 195 Example 9 KU-ENDA Walk, go, tread Ancient Egyptian: khnd Bt fo tread ways The Kiswahili-Bantu word enda, ku-enda, means to go, walk, go on foot, depart. Proto-Bantu form genda, walk, travel, or go away.
Did the Egyptians somehow have the same term for “twist, bend, or fold” and “tread or ways”?…because ‘khnd’ appeared in example 8, and reappears in this example, i.e. example 9, without any visible changes.
Faulkner 105 Example 10 MVUA Rain, water Ancient Egyptian mw ttt water, rain The Kiswahili-Bantu word for rain is mvua. To my knowledge the Ancient Egyptians did not use the consonant v instead the consonant w was used.
“ttt” - role? Shaky link here; “mw”, pending specific independent corroboration, could be pronounced in any number of ways with various possible vowel consonants, rather than just being a vowel-less ’mw’, as is the case with ’mv’ in ‘mvua’.
Example 11 FUKA A porridge type meal Ancient Egyptian: fqa hn!; a cake Fuka is a porridge type meal, made from rice flour, with sugar and honey. In the scheme of things it could be considered a cake.
‘hn!’ - its role? Tentative at best, with possibly vague tonal similarities. Like virtually all the Egyptic terms, at any rate, one would have to verify its actual tonal nature.
Faulkner 87 Antonio Loprieno 305, 49, 57, 59 Example 12 PAA Roof Ancient Egyptian: p-t #! R canopy, sky, heaven A canopy is a covering and performs a similar function to a roof. The Kiswahili- Bantu word paa means, a roof. The Ancient Egyptian word p-t contains the word paa followed by the feminine t. Hence the word would be pronounced as paa-ti.
Of all the correlations made, this example, along with example 3, make better argued correlations.
Antonio Loprieno 60 Faulkner 219 Example 13 KA-SUBA Sun Ancient Egyptian: sba e q!_V star The Bemba-Bantu word for the sun is given as ka-suba derived from the Proto-Bantu word for the sun juba, ba means to shine.
‘e q!_V’ - role? Another tenuous link, short of tonal nature of ‘sba’, or if the actual word is even ‘sba e q!_V’, pending clarification on the role of ‘e q!_V’ as asked at the beginning of this comment.
Yes, an improvement over the last couple of word lists presented as proof of lexical correlation between Egyptic and certain Niger-Congo sub-languages. It is an improvement to the extent that this list uses an actual “Bantu” sub-language, as well as more common terms - likely to be in regular and widespread local use - rather than proper nouns, some of which are likely to be a product of cultural-import with foreign origin, and hence, revealing little else about the general nature of the languages under study. Still, many of the lexical links proposed here, with a few exceptions here and there, appear to be quite tenuous and/or tentative. Meanwhile, we still don’t have any elaborate *grammatical* and *more extensive* lexical correspondence between Egyptic and Bantu, or the Niger-Congo superphylum in general.
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posted
^For the sake of *precision*, wherever I mentioned "tonal nature", should rather read as "phonology" (phonological nature); the reason being that, with the latter terminology, most folks will instantly recognize that the broad spectrum of phonology is to be addressed, not just one or two.
On that note,...
Perhaps as further indication of the tenuousness of many of the above lexical connections, consider this from the link provided:
^We are all now too familiar with the hieroglyphs associated with kem/km, meaning 'black', but according to the translation provided in the link, this is what it's supposed to mean:
Ancient Egyptian: KM, bring to an end, to end, to finish
Proto-Bantu: -MA, stop, come to a standstill
Luvale-Bantu: KOMA, come to an end, finish, cease
Kiswahili-Bantu: KOMA, come to an end, finish, cease
Now, we know from our thorough analysis of the term "kem" and all terms associated with it, that it doesn't mean this. Nothing in that link, that I'm aware of, which gives us an idea of how the author came to that conclusion, as cited above.
posted
KM.m with the bound scroll determinative does bear the meaning of completion/summed up.
We discussed this before somewhere or other quite a while after Rasol broached it in the Kemetian linguistics thread in a post dated 16 December 2004 04:51 PM.
I think the expanded discussion, now lost, was in the EbonyIssues version of The Nile Valley forum.
posted
He actually has a full treaty on the consonant skeletal word Km.t and to be said as KaaUma (Kauma.ti). You can ask him to send you the full document.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^^Okay, so that bar-like figure [determinative] overturns the basic meaning of "km" to mean "complete" or "finished", as opposed to modifying the term "black", or is there more to it - that is, "black" association of the term is not abandoned?
A. Imhotep,
If you have access to what you're talking about above, why not simply share it. And what's your feedback on the issues raised about your citations?!
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posted
Interestingly enough, just yesterday I was GOOGLEing the 2nd TNV forum and came across the full discussion with Wally and Akpakpla or Aurore on KM where black means complete when followed by the rolled and bound scroll determinative indicating the word associated with it is abstract not necessarily literal.
Today, so far, I can't GOOGLE it up.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^^Okay, so that bar-like figure [determinative] overturns the basic meaning of "km" to mean "complete" or "finished", as opposed to modifying the term "black", or is there more to it - that is, "black" association of the term is not abandoned?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
That's fine. When you're able to google it up, please explain with respect to the specifics of my questions.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ^^Okay, so that bar-like figure [determinative] overturns the basic meaning of "km" to mean "complete" or "finished", as opposed to modifying the term "black", or is there more to it - that is, "black" association of the term is not abandoned?
A. Imhotep,
If you have access to what you're talking about above, why not simply share it. And what's your feedback on the issues raised about your citations?!
It is a metaphor, just like the word Km.t is a metaphor. The word consist of two words which is agglutinated to make one
Kaa - charcoal black, blackening, charcoal Uma - kitchen, place of fire
In the Bantu languages, Kaa is associated with a "blackening" not just the color black. It is dealing with a process.
The word Km.t is rarely, if ever used in governmental documents. They are used in spiritual or moral texts and wasn't used as a national designation until the 10th dynasty. Ta-Meri is the name used (also only used at the beginning of 10th dynasty). This let's us know that there is a spiritual, more conceptual meaning and shouldn't be taken literally.
Km.t (KaaUma.ti) is talking about a fire process, a transformation, a coming into being. All across Black Africa charcoal, fire and burning is used as a metaphor for transformation. The root Ka is in many of the Bantu languages:
Kiswahili-Bantu, Kaa, a piece of charcoal, coal, ember, cinder, fuel, live
Mbochi, i-kama, to blacken Tsonga-Bantu, Khala, a piece charcoal Mongo-Bantu, Wala, place where charcoal is prepared Rikwangali-Bantu, ekara, a piece of charcoal Oshinddonga-Bantu, ekala, charcoal Zulu-Bantu, (li)-lahle, cinder, piece of charcoal, a very dark person. Chichewa-Bantu, khala, piece of charcoal
The key root of these words is Kala. The word Kala in the Bantu-Kongo means “to be, to become, to light fire. Dr. Fu-Kiau in African Cosmology of the Bantu Kongo mentions:
“The Kala and kalazima concept itself is associated with blackness and is used as a symbol of emergence of life, the physical world [ku nseke]. The ngunza, spiritual man, is associated with the forces behind this concept and this process. (Fu-Kiau 2001: 26).”
Ka Kalunga is one of the Kongo names for God – completely complete being (a fire force). As Dr. Fu-Kiau notes (2001: 20), “Kalunga became the symbol for force, vitality, and more, a process and principle for change, all changes on the earth.”
This whole concept of fire being the catalyst of change and emergence and the process of human development is attested to in this article below:
Gakondo The Oral Literature of Rwanda The Symbolism of Fire in Rwanda Tradition
As I have mentioned before, Ta-Meri is the result of various African ethnic groups coming together to form the nation. "Km.t" is the university system of priests. The problem is too many "scholars" take things literally and because of this, they miss out on key concepts. No African spiritual concept means only one thing.
I will address the other post later when I get back to the house.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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If you have access to what you're talking about above, why not simply share it. And what's your feedback on the issues raised about your citations?!
It is a metaphor, just like the word Km.t is a metaphor.
In what way, when the charcoal image "literally" means black, that is, "km". It signifies the color that we call in English "black". Do you assume 'black' in English to primarily be a metaphor or it describes color?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The word consist of two words which is agglutinated to make one
Kaa - charcoal black, blackening, charcoal Uma - kitchen, place of fire
Actually that "charcoal" figure alone is enough to designate "km"; the owl is just presented at times to emphasize the 'm', but doesn't have to be present for the "charcoal" figure to mean and remain as "km" - that is "black".
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
In the Bantu languages, Kaa is associated with a "blackening" not just the color black. It is dealing with a process.
While "kem" in Egyptic may actually sound somewhat more like it has an "h" sound for that "k" at the beginning. How do you correlate the phonological nature of "kem" with "Kaa"? Please explain.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The word Km.t is rarely, if ever used in governmental documents.
But supposedly used in analytical documents of the time, like say, the Kahun papyrus? Matter of fact, doesn't seem that the pharaonic system of governance was separated from ideas of spirituality. What do you suppose all that talk of the living pharaoh symbolizing Horus, while the passed away Pharaoh symbolized the person of Ausar, was all about?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
They are used in spiritual or moral texts and wasn't used as a national designation until the 10th dynasty.
How do you square this with claims that it appears in the "Book of the Dead", which is believed to have been authored sometime by the first Dynasty?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Km.t (KaaUma.ti) is talking about a fire process, a transformation, a coming into being. All across Black Africa charcoal, fire and burning is used as a metaphor for transformation.
Quite simply, it is "blackness" or "complete darkness" that is considered "sacred", and generally associated with longivity, fertility, and other traits of strength embodying 'renewal' and eternity.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As I have mentioned before, Ta-Meri is the result of various African ethnic groups coming together to form the nation.
None of which were "Bantu" speakers; you have yet to establish this.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
"Km.t" is the university system of priests. The problem is too many "scholars" take things literally and because of this, they miss out on key concepts. No African spiritual concept means only one thing.
"km" is not "things", but it does specifically connote the 'black' color. The color itself may have deeper implications, but it doesn't cease being that color which we call "black" in English. To that extent, it always remains literal.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I will address the other post later when I get back to the house.
Looking forward to it.
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The 1971 edition of the 1926 "Worterbuch" has two entries for (KM[mdj3t]) in Vol. V on pg. 124 & pp. 128-130.
In the first entry for KM.mdj3t, meaning black, there are three examples; one from the Middle Kingdom, one from Keshli inscriptions of Piye's era, one from the medical literature.
In the second entry for KM.mdj3t it means complete. There are 22 examples of words or expressions using KM.mdj3t including mathematical ones. KM.mdj3t/complete appears in Middle Kingdom literature, New and Late Kingdoms, and in Greco-Roman times.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Genetics only deal with people living in the areas where samples are taken today, they have little insight on the past unless the samples come from ancient skeletal sources.
Incorrect. Genetic samples from modern populations give an insight to that populations' history, especially when compared to other populations of the area. Hence Asiatic J lineages in modern Egyptians is recent compared to the indigenous African E lineages. So your pathetic excuse of an argument against genetics is again null, Winters.
quote:The linguistic evidence is clear Berber languages may be related to the Semitic group because they originated in Arabia. The languages show little resemblence to Black African languages like Egyptian.[/b]
Nope. The linguistic evidence is clear that Berber is as much African as Egyptian and Berber is as much related to Semitic as Egyptian is! Also, the racial bias is obvious in labeling languages as "black" anything since these are languages which can be spoken by anyone regardless of color.
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: The above explanation is badly flawed. First off, there is no such thing as Afriasian. It is “Negro-Egyptian” as defined by world renowned linguist and archeologist Dr. Théophile Obenga.
No original language can be fully adopted by another group of people without the language being corrupted in some ways. Because of this you can trace the origin of the people based on the language they speak. Scientifically (anthropologically), languages laced formed with adopted foreign tongues can be can be used to where the speakers of the "hybrid" language may have come from. I a perfect example of this is Creole spoken in Haiti which is a mixture of West African languages and French; Or Jamaican Creole which is a mixture of West African languages and English. Another Creole language spoken in Nigeria, called Pidgin English, which is a combination of African languages and English; and strikes very similar to Jamaican Creole, shows another example of a "hybrid" language which can be deciphered to trace the possible origin of the people by comparing and matching contents of which make up the hybrid language in study. Another example of this would be “Gee-chi” African American Creole spoken by Blacks in the U.S. which mixes English and many languages from West Africa. In addition to this, Swahili which is spoken groups like the Lou in Kenya and many other parts of Africa has touches of Arabic influences but the root foundation of the language is Bantu. Therefore, the idea that people's origin cannot be traced simply because one people group adopts/mixes another people group's language is illogical and cannot be taking seriously by normal critical thinking individuals. And coming from certain individuals, such flaws in logic can be viewed as a bold face lie all part of the Eurocentric attempt to deny the obvious origins of Black Africans in West Africa and other parts of Africa today. The redundant and erroneous acrobatic detractions are slowly crawling to a halt.
We've been through this before. Afrasian is very real as is Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan. It is this "Negro-Egyptian" that is false. Almost (though not quite) as false as Nostratic! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: In what way, when the charcoal image "literally" means black, that is, "km". It signifies the color that we call in English "black". Do you assume 'black' in English to primarily be a metaphor or it describes color?
As I said before, the charcoal symbol is used in the context of BLACKENING and NOT JUST the color BLACK. You will run into problems trying to use European (English) concepts and speech to understand African priestly language and symbolism. I gave you the link with a full treaty on the subject and I also referred you to a book on the subject (Fu-Kiau 2001). This concept is not debatable and is something that is wide spread amongst all African metallurgical societies. This is known to all priests in living African systems.
quote: Actually that "charcoal" figure alone is enough to designate "km"; the owl is just presented at times to emphasize the 'm', but doesn't have to be present for the "charcoal" figure to mean and remain as "km" - that is "black".
This says nothing as you are trying to imply that a double consonant would not consist of two words and still have another for emphasis. Mdw Ntr is like all African languages and that it is an agglutinating language system. Words are hidden in the consonant skeleton. The bi or triliteral symbols are used for convenience and to better emphasize the singular phonic and ideographic concepts.
quote: While "kem" in Egyptic may actually sound somewhat more like it has an "h" sound for that "k" at the beginning. How do you correlate the phonological nature of "kem" with "Kaa"? Please explain.
Once again, you are reading Mdw Ntr like a westerner and not like an African person who invented the writing. We can associate "Kaa" or it's varients "Kha" with blackening, a fire process, like all other Bantu words because it is attested to in the Egyptian language itself.
Budge - Hieroglyphic Dictionary /ch/ or /kh/ which is phonetically consistent with /k/. Remember vowels are passive...
pg 285 M'Kha - fire, flame, to burn up
pg 385 Kha - furnace, fire place, cauldron,
pg 531 Khaam - heat, fire, hot, feaver
Gods pg 526 Khe-t-uat-en-Ra -- A FIRE goddess
Khe-t-em-Amentiu --- the FIRE gods of Amenti
Khe-t-ankh-am-f -- a FIERY serpent goddess
Khe-ti -- FIRE spitting serpent
Other pg. 526 Khe-t -- fire, flame, heat, to burn
pg 572 Khamm - to blaze, to be hot
Kha-t -- heated, excited
Kha-t -- people, mankind (attested to in Ferg Somo's essay on Km.t)
******************************
All of the above (save the last entry) deal with a fire process and is attested to in the various Bantu languages already mentioned. The word Km.t is just a play and a agglutination with the word "kaa" or "kha."
quote: But supposedly used in analytical documents of the time, like say, the Kahun papyrus? Matter of fact, doesn't seem that the pharaonic system of governance was separated from ideas of spirituality. What do you suppose all that talk of the living pharaoh symbolizing Horus, while the passed away Pharaoh symbolized the person of Ausar, was all about?
I don't see what you are trying to get at when my argument has partly been about the priesthood of Ta-Meri. You could not (as in all indigenous African societies) hold any place of government without being initiated into the priesthood. So if a governmental official uses "priestly" language, it would fit given the fact he's in the priesthood.
quote: How do you square this with claims that it appears in the "Book of the Dead", which is believed to have been authored sometime by the first Dynasty?
Article titled "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land" written by Ogden Goelet in:
* Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine by R. Chazan, W. W. Hallo, L. H. Schiffman
quote: Quite simply, it is "blackness" or "complete darkness" that is considered "sacred", and generally associated with longivity, fertility, and other traits of strength embodying 'renewal' and eternity.
Once again refer to the other references already cited.
quote: None of which were "Bantu" speakers; you have yet to establish this.
Once again, this has already been established numerous times on this board in several different post about the Bantu vocabulary in Egyptian Language. Scholars like Obenga in "Les Peuples Bantu, Tome Ii : Migrations, Expansion Et Identité Culturelle" & Les Bantu: Langues, peuples, civilisations (Unknown Binding). Ferg Somo has done numerous work on cognates that haven't been published. Also my own research on Bantu spiritual and ritual concepts in Ancient Ta-Meri places the Bantu people in Egypt. Their oral traditions place them in Egypt and the Sahara pre desertification. The Bantu presence in Ta-Meri is established.
A few concepts to demonstrate
Nkwa - life - Akan Nkwa - life/living - Kongo Nkwa kimoyo (a priest)- life (one who is life (fire starter) in the community)- Kongo Nkwi-ki - living - Kongo bantu Ankh (nkwa) - life - Ta-Meri
The root of all of these is /nk/. The /wa/ is a passive suffix which indicates that the subject is being acted upon by an agent. The Ankh symbol is a Bantu symbol for someone who has graduated from the priesthood (an Nganga/ Nkwa-moyo).
Another term
dUa.t = place deceased spirits go, home of asar.
Proto-Bantu dUa - meaning island
In the Egyptian dua.t, all of the land inside the dua.t is referred to as an "island."
I could go on for days on the conceptual ideas expressed in Ta-Merrian culture, but it would take too much space on a message board.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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The 1971 edition of the 1926 "Worterbuch" has two entries for (KM[mdj3t]) in Vol. V on pg. 124 & pp. 128-130.
In the first entry for KM.mdj3t, meaning black, there are three examples; one from the Middle Kingdom, one from Keshli inscriptions of Piye's era, one from the medical literature.
In the second entry for KM.mdj3t it means complete. There are 22 examples of words or expressions using KM.mdj3t including mathematical ones. KM.mdj3t/complete appears in Middle Kingdom literature, New and Late Kingdoms, and in Greco-Roman times.
I'm not sure how this answers the specifics of my question.
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quote: In what way, when the charcoal image "literally" means black, that is, "km". It signifies the color that we call in English "black". Do you assume 'black' in English to primarily be a metaphor or it describes color?
As I said before, the charcoal symbol is used in the context of BLACKENING and NOT JUST the color BLACK.
And as I have said to you, that charcoal symbol is "kem", it doesn't even require the owl figure to be next to it, for it to be "kem" . The charcoal is a word that denotes what we call "black"; it is not "blackening", or "blackened" - just plainly "black", unless modified by a determinant. This determinant, from what I understand, never ceases to diminish the fact that the "charcoal" still denotes "black". In other words, the determinant doesn't delimit "black"; rather, "black" entails whatever the determinant seeks to communicate.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
You will run into problems trying to use European (English) concepts and speech to understand African priestly language and symbolism.
I'm speaking from a grammatical standpoint, and each language has grammatic rules that are strictly adhered to. You'll run into problems trying to avoid the language structure aspect of this.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I gave you the link with a full treaty on the subject and I also referred you to a book on the subject (Fu-Kiau 2001).
...which answers none of the specfics I raised, and if you think referencing a book absolves one from explanation of their position(s), you might want to rethink that.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
This concept is not debatable and is something that is wide spread amongst all African metallurgical societies. This is known to all priests in living African systems.
What "concept"; we are talking about "language", and why it is presumably more related to "Bantu" languages than the Afrasan superphylum.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: Actually that "charcoal" figure alone is enough to designate "km"; the owl is just presented at times to emphasize the 'm', but doesn't have to be present for the "charcoal" figure to mean and remain as "km" - that is "black".
This says nothing as you are trying to imply that a double consonant would not consist of two words and still have another for emphasis.
I'm not sure you're getting the point. The charcoal itself is suffice to be the entire term "kem" - you now understand? There is no double consonant here. The owl is more of a visual effect of emphasis, than sound.
I have to attend to other things, but I'll address the rest of your post later, as soon as I can. Watch this space.
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The CONSONANTS KM represents BLACK in Mdw Ntr. The argument is that the KM, which is symbolized by charcoal which is NOT a natural occurring product, is PRONOUNCED KaaUma. The M or "Uma" is there to let you know in what context the KM is referencing. Charcoal is used to extract metals from orche (metallurgy) and is used for heating and cooking. Some other African cognates:
KaMa meaning Black in Coptic, iKaMa meaning Blackened in Mbochi, KaMi Burnt in Bambara, KeMi Burnt in Mandjakou, KeM Burnt in Wolof, Kim meaning Burnt in Mossi, etc... Also let us note that KeMbou meaning Charcoal in Pulaar, KeMpori meaning Black in Vai KeMatou meaning completely burnt in Mandjakou
I am not, for the last time, NOT saying that KM does not mean black. I am telling you that it also means "to blacken," "burnt," "completely burnt" as attested to in the other African languages. As mentioned before, the consonants in the other African languages describe a process of blackening, NOT just a color. So it is more than just the color BLACK. They chose the charcoal for a reason. The reference to "blackness" is a metaphoric one in most the languages. The root of KM is /kaa/ or /ka/ as has already been established.
****************************** Mbochi, i-kama, to blacken Tsonga-Bantu, Khala, a piece charcoal Mongo-Bantu, Wala, place where charcoal is prepared Rikwangali-Bantu, ekara, a piece of charcoal Oshinddonga-Bantu, ekala, charcoal Zulu-Bantu, (li)-lahle, cinder, piece of charcoal, a very dark person. Chichewa-Bantu, khala, piece of charcoal
***************************************
Now for a designation, and you should really do more reading on the bantu people, there are STILL people in Africa along the Nile named KAUMA. Here is the reference.
********************************************
THE KAUMA PEOPLE OF KENYA THE BLACK TOWN OR VILLAGE
Below is an account given by the Rev. DR. L Kraph of a group of people who formed the people of the nine villages called the ‘Mji Kenda’ The 10 Mji Kenda included a group of people called the KAUMA who formerly lived together in what they called ‘The Black Town’ Mutzi Muiro. THE BLACK TOWN MUTZI MUIRU MUTZI = (VILLAGE OR TOWN), (MUIRU = BLACK) The black town on Mount Reale was formerly the kaya or capital of the Rabbai tribe. The people of Malande and Kamfuda left this kaya; some returning to their fatherland Rombo in Chagga, others going to the Wadigo, others to the banks of the river Pokomo, and became lost to their tribe. One division took refuge with their brother-tribe, the Chognis (Chogni cha Muadaruko), and in consequence of a plot against them returned after a year or two and founded another kaya, called Vokera, which existed through nine generations, when a division again took place, though none left the country entirely. They merely separated, and those who left the place founded the Mutzi Mu via (by the Suahili called Rabbai M'pia, new town, new Rabai). There seems to have been two towns on the Reale—Mutzi Muiru, the black town and Mutzi Mudide. They were exceedingly war-like. Gniro and Nchira are still mentioned as the fiercest. They were also called '' Mutzi mubomu wa Reale, and Mutzi mudide Muiru," afterwards they were called Mitzi ya Ntzoani (accursed towns?). Muravai, Muchogni, Mukiriama, and Mtahe Duruma, Rive, Kambe, Kauma, are all brother-tribes.
(referenced in Ferg Somo article on Kmt)
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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We can associate "Kaa" or it's varients "Kha" with blackening, a fire process, like all other Bantu words because it is attested to in the Egyptian language itself.
Well, you may proceed with doing that with Bantu "Kaa", but you'll have to have more objective evidence that Egyptic "kem" means anything else but 'black'; not "blacker", "blackening" or "blackened", but just plainly "black".
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Budge - Hieroglyphic Dictionary /ch/ or /kh/ which is phonetically consistent with /k/. Remember vowels are passive...
pg 285 M'Kha - fire, flame, to burn up
pg 385 Kha - furnace, fire place, cauldron,
pg 531 Khaam - heat, fire, hot, feaver
Gods pg 526 Khe-t-uat-en-Ra -- A FIRE goddess
Khe-t-em-Amentiu --- the FIRE gods of Amenti
Khe-t-ankh-am-f -- a FIERY serpent goddess
Khe-ti -- FIRE spitting serpent
Other pg. 526 Khe-t -- fire, flame, heat, to burn
pg 572 Khamm - to blaze, to be hot
Kha-t -- heated, excited
Kha-t -- people, mankind (attested to in Ferg Somo's essay on Km.t)
******************************
All of the above (save the last entry) deal with a fire process and is attested to in the various Bantu languages already mentioned. The word Km.t is just a play and a agglutination with the word "kaa" or "kha."
You do realize that you aren't challenging the meaning of "Kem" as the equivalent of English "black", i.e. the color of "black", "charcoal", or "complete darkness" - right?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: But supposedly used in analytical documents of the time, like say, the Kahun papyrus? Matter of fact, doesn't seem that the pharaonic system of governance was separated from ideas of spirituality. What do you suppose all that talk of the living pharaoh symbolizing Horus, while the passed away Pharaoh symbolized the person of Ausar, was all about?
I don't see what you are trying to get at when my argument has partly been about the priesthood of Ta-Meri.
If you don't see the point, maybe you should try reading the comment the quote above was addressing.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
You could not (as in all indigenous African societies) hold any place of government without being initiated into the priesthood. So if a governmental official uses "priestly" language, it would fit given the fact he's in the priesthood.
See above, so as to respond appropriately.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: How do you square this with claims that it appears in the "Book of the Dead", which is believed to have been authored sometime by the first Dynasty?
Article titled "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land" written by Ogden Goelet in:
* Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine by R. Chazan, W. W. Hallo, L. H. Schiffman
...and this addresses what you're quoting above in what way?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: Quite simply, it is "blackness" or "complete darkness" that is considered "sacred", and generally associated with longivity, fertility, and other traits of strength embodying 'renewal' and eternity.
Once again refer to the other references already cited.
They are immaterial - they don't address anything I've raised.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: None of which were "Bantu" speakers; you have yet to establish this.
Once again, this has already been established numerous times on this board
Where?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
in several different post about the Bantu vocabulary in Egyptian Language. Scholars like Obenga in "Les Peuples Bantu, Tome Ii : Migrations, Expansion Et Identité Culturelle" & Les Bantu: Langues, peuples, civilisations (Unknown Binding). Ferg Somo has done numerous work on cognates that haven't been published. Also my own research on Bantu spiritual and ritual concepts in Ancient Ta-Meri places the Bantu people in Egypt. Their oral traditions place them in Egypt and the Sahara pre desertification. The Bantu presence in Ta-Meri is established.
I've asked ad infinitum for Obenga's supposed establishment of closer relationship of the Bantu subphylum and the Niger-Congo superphylum in general to Egyptic than that of Egyptic to the Afrasan superphylum, and nothing to date has been produced. I've already asked you to address those pressing issues I raised about the supposed lexical cognates shared between Egyptic and Kiswahili, along with *elaborate* grammatical cognates shared between Egyptic and that language and other Bantu languages, but your response to that is still pending.
No Bantu language is spoken in the lower Nile Valley [Egypt-Sudan], and there is no indication of Bantu speakers being in the Sahara. In fact, Ancient Egyptian language is deemed to be older than Bantu, since *proto-Bantu* has only been dated back to 5000 years ago *at the most* and 3000 years ago at the least. The homeland of this *proto-Bantu* language is traced back to the region straddling Nigeria and Cameroon, which makes sense when one looks at the linguistic map presented earlier. If proto-Bantu language, from which Kiswahali ultimately derived, is not even as old as Egyptic, then how can Egyptic have derived its terms from Kiswahili [as pointed out in your Freg citation], which wasn't even "born" at the turn of pre-dynastic period. So no, neither you or anybody else has established Bantu presence in either predynastic or dynastic Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
A few concepts to demonstrate
Nkwa - life - Akan Nkwa - life/living - Kongo Nkwa kimoyo (a priest)- life (one who is life (fire starter) in the community)- Kongo Nkwi-ki - living - Kongo bantu Ankh (nkwa) - life - Ta-Meri
The root of all of these is /nk/. The /wa/ is a passive suffix which indicates that the subject is being acted upon by an agent. The Ankh symbol is a Bantu symbol for someone who has graduated from the priesthood (an Nganga/ Nkwa-moyo).
Another term
dUa.t = place deceased spirits go, home of asar.
Proto-Bantu dUa - meaning island
In the Egyptian dua.t, all of the land inside the dua.t is referred to as an "island."
I could go on for days on the conceptual ideas expressed in Ta-Merrian culture, but it would take too much space on a message board.
I am sure you could go on for days on conceptual ideas and other things, but how about first addressing those things I raised about your Freg citation? Other points will be discussed in good time, and space is not an issue - bringing this Bantu in Egypt thesis to its logical conclusion is what counts.
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Saying something is wrong, doesn't make it so. It has to be demonstrated.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The CONSONANTS KM represents BLACK in Mdw Ntr.
No question about that; "Charcoal" is a singular mentonymy for "kem". It isn't a necessity to add any other glyph to this sign, to make it known that it quite simply means "kem" in its own right.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The argument is that the KM, which is symbolized by charcoal which is NOT a natural occurring product, is PRONOUNCED KaaUma.
And what Nile Valley lingual indicators have brought you to that conclusion?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The M or "Uma" is there to let you know in what context the KM is referencing. Charcoal is used to extract metals from orche (metallurgy) and is used for heating and cooking.
You're convincing yourself of this, by ignoring what I've told you time and again, about the 'charcoal' alone being enough to designate "Km", even without the owl or any other symbol for 'm'. But if diagrammatically I must demonstrate this to you, then so be it:
Recap:
Originally posted by Supercar:
Without determinatives:
Km [musculine] =
Km.t[feminine] = ........................Km....t
On a side note:
Km is 'black', in musculine singular.
Km.t is also 'black', in feminine singular. The "t" is simply added to connote the feminine context of the term. It doesn't mean "the".
Contextualization of Km.t
...by just applying determinatives like...
Km.t[nw.t] > equivalent to black people/ the blacks
Km.t[yw] > equivalent to citizens/black people
Kememou > again black people, an alternative to the above
[rm.t].km.t > again citizens/black people
^...just a few examples amongst many, showing how the determinative can contextualize Km.t [feminine]
Now, looking at Diop's reproduction of Worterbuch compilations, consistent with what I demonstrated above in glyphs, and what I've been saying to you all along:
^Look at the various instances where "km.t" appears in glyphs: Do you see any owl symbol in these variants, let alone any other symbol to take the place of the owl as a denotation of 'm'? If not, then why?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I am not, for the last time, NOT saying that KM does not mean black. I am telling you that it also means "to blacken," "burnt," "completely burnt" as attested to in the other African languages.
I'm telling you that your resort to modifications of 'black' into verb-forms or adjective-forms, has no bearing on kem's primary denotation of the "black" color. Since we all acknowledge that, then it is settled.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As mentioned before, the consonants in the other African languages describe a process of blackening, NOT just a color.
"Not just a color" is just a non-starter; it is the 'color' in question which embodies whatever it is that the determinant is trying to communicate in the derivatives of Egyptic "kem". So of course to that end, it will no longer "just" be a color.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
So it is more than just the color BLACK. They chose the charcoal for a reason. The reference to "blackness" is a metaphoric one in most the languages. The root of KM is /kaa/ or /ka/ as has already been established.
Where? Surely, you aren't using Kiswahili or Bantu "kaa" as the root for Kemetic "Kem", are you?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Now for a designation, and you should really do more reading on the bantu people, there are STILL people in Africa along the Nile named KAUMA. Here is the reference.
********************************************
THE KAUMA PEOPLE OF KENYA THE BLACK TOWN OR VILLAGE
What Nile Valley phonetic indicators gave you the idea that "Kem" is pronounced as "KaUMA"?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: We've been through this before. Afrasian is very real as is Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan. It is this "Negro-Egyptian" that is false. Almost (though not quite) as false as Nostratic! LOL [/QB]
Yeah, and after it's been proven over and over agan that the classification does not exist, you and others continue to refer to it. Therefore, it will require persistent correction till it sinks in. So as a reminder again, " It is “Negro-Egyptian” as defined by world renowned linguist and archeologist Dr. Théophile Obenga."
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posted
It seems you have little knowledge of Ta-Merian and the various Ba’Ntu histories. For one, it is known through the Edfu texts that what is called Ta-Meri was the result of invaders coming from the south known then as Ta-Nehesu. When Aha “united” upper and lower Ta-Meri (known then simply as /hnw/ - the interior), the priesthoods did not do away with tribal deities, but instead combined the various deities into the pantheon. We know that Amen (amma) originated in the Sahara and what is NOW Sudan. Ra & Hrw are southern deities. Several things have to come to mind when faced with these facts.
One, if the invasion from the south did not impose on the native people there a language or religious system, then their (indigenous north Africans) native tongues had to absorbed in what we “consider” the Mdw Ntr language system, or certain words, concepts and cultural norms were amalgamated, but the people in large kept their native tongues (which I argue). We know this habit was practiced because each village was “allowed” to keep their deities and only a few from different regions were amalgamated into the pantheon.
Secondly, you are neglecting several historical realities. First, for example, the Akan and Yoruba people (supposedly two different language phylums) did not originate in the west. Both their oral histories place them in ancient Ta-Meri. We can prove this kingship rituals, religious rights and other artifacts such as the snake headdress among the Yoruba and even the Asante stools among the Akan.
The Yoruba language is a part of the larger so-called Niger-Congo language group, which is further categorized under the Benue-Congo language which Bantu is under. The “conservative” date of 5000 BP gives evidence to the research many have unearthed. For 5000 BP means 3000 BC (BP is before 1950). 3000 BC is the time given for the DISPERSAL of the Bantu people from West Africa, not the FORMATION of the language, which means the language existed way before 3000 BC. Now not all Bantu people lived in Cameroon as some linguist would like to think. I think the people in the country know more about their own history than Europeans. Babutidi’s work titled “Bantu Migration and Settlement,” in Laman’s Kongo Cultural Collection, (20,000 pp. microfilm, Lidingo, Sweden, 1914. Film No. 1, Cahier XVIII/13), he goes on to state:
quote:“A long time ago in antiquity, people did not exist in this Lower-Congo; they come from the north of the country. There also, in the north, people came from far off north, the very north of Kayinga. Kayinga is the name of the country [region] where lived our ancestors in antiquity…There they already knew how to weave the cloths they wore, forge hoes and knives that they used. The main reason for their coming in this country [area] was the famine that hit Kayinga. For many years the drought reigned; crops and fruit trees they planted dried up. They suffered a lot for this. Unable to support the suffering they said to each other: “Let’s go to Banda-Mputu [Let’s pass through the dense forest, the unbreakable wall] and organize chieftaincies, because we have a lot of hunger up here.” So they agreed: “Let’s go.”
In the past, two chieftaincies ruled this part of the world [region]. When people escaped from the north of Kayinga, they separated on their way; some crossed the Nzadi [Congo river], these are people who live in the Nsundi area [the left shore of Nzadi] and others are those who live on the Simu-Kongo [the right shore of the Nzadi].”
The KIYANGA was the name of the Sahara. The left of the Congo River is currently called Republic of Congo, Gabon and Cameroon. The right of the Congo River is Rwanda, Uganda, Zambia, & Zaire. The rain forest [Banda-Mputu] is located below Chad, the Sudan, The Central African Republic, Uganda and Cameroon (also hitting Zaire, Republic of Congo and Democratic Republic of Congo).
The ending of the Naptian Pluval period which began the desertification of Kiyanga started at around 10-8000 BCE. This dried up around 5000 BCE. This geological fact would coincide with the oral tradition of the Kongo region. There is no desert in Camaroon or Nigeria. What push these Bantu speaking people down through the forests was the drying up of Kiyanga. This is how they got into West Africa in the first place. The difference from the end of the Pluvial period to the given date of the dispersal of the Bantu people to central and south Africa is 2000 years. I doubt they waited 2000 years to notice the Kiyanga was drying up. A drought does not take long to manifest and if a population notices no rain for (at the most) 5 years they are gone.
For some reason people keep forgetting how big the Sahara is. The Sahara stretches from MAURATANIA to EGYPT. That is the whole north Africa. From the tip of TUNISIA to mid NIGER, CHAD and the SUDAN. For this reason we know the Bantu speaking people were not in one isolated pocket, but dispersed all over north Africa, which puts them in the Sahara at the time of Egypt’ political formation around 3400-3100 BCE.
You must know more about the people in the Kongo’s history then they do, and as I have said in my first post, the reason why so much of European scholarship on Africa is sketchy is because they refuse to talk to the people. Africans have a sophisticated system of history transference and it would benefit all to study it. This is why you have Bantu spiritual concepts as the main imagery in ancient Egypt. As I have said, from someone who has spoken to priests in Africa, from different parts of the continent, what we know as Km.t was a university system that stretched the continent. And Mdw Ntr is just the symbolic representation of all of these languages and concepts from the different “schools” across Africa.
Until you can deal with that, you are wasting your time. And this isn’t something you can read in a book. Get out, travel and talk to the people. When you do, visit Tanzania and ask the elder women to draw Mdw Ntr in the sand for you.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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It seems you have little knowledge of Ta-Merian and the various Ba’Ntu histories.
Why, because you've convinced yourself so?...because I won't allow myself to be distracted and would rather see you address the specific issues I've raised?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
When Aha “united” upper and lower Ta-Meri (known then simply as /hnw/ - the interior), the priesthoods did not do away with tribal deities, but instead combined the various deities into the pantheon. We know that Amen (amma) originated in the Sahara and what is NOW Sudan. Ra & Hrw are southern deities. Several things have to come to mind when faced with these facts.
One, if the invasion from the south did not impose on the native people there a language or religious system, then their (indigenous north Africans) native tongues had to absorbed in what we “consider” the Mdw Ntr language system, or certain words, concepts and cultural norms were amalgamated, but the people in large kept their native tongues (which I argue).
Invasion from what "south"? How far south, do you suppose Ancient Egyptian language came from? You need to avoid ambiguity as much as possible.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Secondly, you are neglecting several historical realities. First, for example, the Akan and Yoruba people (supposedly two different language phylums) did not originate in the west.
I'm not neglecting anything that is *relevant* to "linguistic" connections between Bantu and the Ancient Egyptians; however you are.
You have no evidence whatsoever that Bantu has ever been spoken in ancient Egypt, or even the Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Both their oral histories place them in ancient Ta-Meri. We can prove this kingship rituals, religious rights and other artifacts such as the snake headdress among the Yoruba and even the Asante stools among the Akan.
Well, this ought to show up linguistically. What *extensive* grammatical and lexical cognates do these Niger-Congo languages have with Ancient Egyptian, to suggest that these folks were living in ancient Egypt?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The Yoruba language is a part of the larger so-called Niger-Congo language group, which is further categorized under the Benue-Congo language which Bantu is under. The “conservative” date of 5000 BP gives evidence to the research many have unearthed. For 5000 BP means 3000 BC (BP is before 1950). 3000 BC is the time given for the DISPERSAL of the Bantu people from West Africa, not the FORMATION of the language, which means the language existed way before 3000 BC.
You show neglegence. That date approximation which has an upperbound estimation of 5000 years ago and lowerbound estimation of 3000 years ago, as I noted above, is based on linguistic reconstructions of *proto-terms* as well as using other tools like glottochronology. These reconstructions place the age of the phylum to those timeframes mentioned. Various sources even place the migrations at later date of ca. 4000 year ago. Aside from language, stuff like storage-ware (like pottery) had been studied to reconstruct the path of the migrations. So, the *proto-language* of the Bantu phylum dates to no earlier than that upperbound 5000 years ago timeframe. And even if it did, it is safe to assume that the migrations occurred during the branching off of the proto-language, hence leading to clear enough differentiation of Bantu languages from other Niger-Congo subphylums. If you have evidence that Bantu languages are much much older than the upperbound timeframe estimated, which you yourself acknowledge, then produce it.
Because pottery making continues to be practiced throughout Africa, its manufacturing process, well described in ethnographic literature, also has become a key topic in ethno-archaeology. In addition, ceramics are archaeologists’ principal data source in Africa, at least for Ceramic Later Stone Age and Iron Age assemblages, because of their survival in poor conservation contexts. As part of their analysis, archaeologists classify pottery into related traditions ‘to situate cultures in time and in space, and to reconstruct not only exchange networks of goods and peoples, production and consumption patterns, sociopolitical structures, and more recently, thought systems’ (Gosselain 2002). This high archaeological visibility and ethnographic prominence, combined with a high linguistic prominence, makes pottery a particularly attractive subject of interdisciplinary research. Particular ceramic traditions and Bantu language subgroups have often been associated with each other (Huffman & Herbert 1994-95). However, a systematic comparative study of Bantu pottery vocabulary had never been carried out (Bostoen 2007).
The Comparative Bantu Pottery Vocabulary Database laid the foundations for such a systematic comparative study (Bostoen 2004a, 2004b, 2005, 2006, 2007). Its online publication makes it possible to check all lexical evidence on which the above publications relied for the reconstruction of the early history of pottery in Bantu-speaking Africa. Moreover, its data can be used for future comparative research, since they have not been fully exploited yet.
The Comparative Bantu Pottery Vocabulary Database's 5829 records originate from about 400 different (Narrow) Bantu languages and some few non-Bantu languages. They have been collected from diverse sources. The most important source is without doubt Lolemi, the Bantu language library of the RMCA. However, not only data from language studies but also from ethnographic and ethnoarchaeological studies available at the libraries of Prehistory & Archaeology, Ethnography and Ethnosociology & Ethnohistory of the RMCA have been integrated. Besides data from the scientific literature, the database contains data generously granted by colleagues through personal communication. In this respect thanks go to François Belliard, Robert Botne, Maud Devos, Conny Kutsch Lojenga, André Mangulu Motingea and Mark van de Velde. Reinhard Klein-Arendt (University of Köln) deserves special mention. He granted all the unpublished data he collected during the linguistic fieldwork he carried out in the Lake Corridor region (Malawi, Zambia, Tanzania) in 1995 and 1996. Fieldwork was also done by the composer of the database himself. In 1999, several potters were interviewed in Zambia, Malawi and Tanzania. Data were gathered in following languages: Ndamba, Lozi, Lambya, Leya, Tonga, Tumbuka, and Chewa. In 2000, research was done in a Twa community in Burundi, i.e. the village of Kibumbu (province of Mwaro) (Bostoen & Harushimana 2003). In 2001, Ganda and Nyoro potters were interviewed in Uganda. Finally, the Institut Supérieur Pédagogique of Bukavu (DRC) collected pottery vocabulary in several languages of the Kivu region: Nande, Shi, Bembe, Fuliru and Vira. (J42). In the database, these data are labeled "ISP Bukavu 2002 (by order of Koen Bostoen)". - metafro.com
Bantu languages aren't spoken in either the Sahara or northern coastal Africa. This correlates well with its *recent* provenance and its dispersal from Nigeria-Cameroonian region. And we know that Bantu speakers spread from western-central Africa and then to east and south, again making the case for that Nigerian-Cameroonian region: see "Western Bantu stream" vs. "Eastern Bantu stream" for insight. This finds expression in population genetics as well. Evidence is stacked against you, and makes the burden of proving otherwise that much harder on you.
Now not all Bantu people lived in Cameroon as some linguist would like to think. I think the people in the country know more about their own history than Europeans. Babutidi’s work titled “Bantu Migration and Settlement,” in Laman’s Kongo Cultural Collection, (20,000 pp. microfilm, Lidingo, Sweden, 1914. Film No. 1, Cahier XVIII/13), he goes on to state:
See post above.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The KIYANGA was the name of the Sahara. The left of the Congo River is currently called Republic of Congo, Gabon and Cameroon. The right of the Congo River is Rwanda, Uganda, Zambia, & Zaire. The rain forest [Banda-Mputu] is located below Chad, the Sudan, The Central African Republic, Uganda and Cameroon (also hitting Zaire, Republic of Congo and Democratic Republic of Congo).
The ending of the Naptian Pluval period which began the desertification of Kiyanga started at around 10-8000 BCE. This dried up around 5000 BCE. This geological fact would coincide with the oral tradition of the Kongo region. There is no desert in Camaroon or Nigeria. What push these Bantu speaking people down through the forests was the drying up of Kiyanga. This is how they got into West Africa in the first place.
The difference from the end of the Pluvial period to the given date of the dispersal of the Bantu people to central and south Africa is 2000 years. I doubt they waited 2000 years to notice the Kiyanga was drying up. A drought does not take long to manifest and if a population notices no rain for (at the most) 5 years they are gone.
For some reason people keep forgetting how big the Sahara is. The Sahara stretches from MAURATANIA to EGYPT. That is the whole north Africa. From the tip of TUNISIA to mid NIGER, CHAD and the SUDAN. For this reason we know the Bantu speaking people were not in one isolated pocket, but dispersed all over north Africa, which puts them in the Sahara at the time of Egypt’ political formation around 3400-3100 BCE.
You must know more about the people in the Kongo’s history then they do, and as I have said in my first post, the reason why so much of European scholarship on Africa is sketchy is because they refuse to talk to the people.
That rationale has been falsified by my citation above.
On a side note: Multidisciplinary method can work wonders. For intance, it shows that no Bantu groups lived in North Africa, and relatively the most recent branch of the Niger-Congo, spread into the central, east and southern Africa by farming communities equipped with iron technology, the oldest of which is dated back to west African sites where there are no Bantu speakers; on the other hand, it confirms Lemba traditions that they have ancestors from "southwest Asia".
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Africans have a sophisticated system of history transference and it would benefit all to study it. This is why you have Bantu spiritual concepts as the main imagery in ancient Egypt. As I have said, from someone who has spoken to priests in Africa, from different parts of the continent, what we know as Km.t was a university system that stretched the continent. And Mdw Ntr is just the symbolic representation of all of these languages and concepts from the different “schools” across Africa.
Until you can deal with that, you are wasting your time. And this isn’t something you can read in a book. Get out, travel and talk to the people. When you do, visit Tanzania and ask the elder women to draw Mdw Ntr in the sand for you.
Asar Imhotep, I wouldn't mind "wasting that time" of mine which you care so much for, by going through this distractive dead-ender, but at some point we've got to get busy with *extensive* linguistic comparative analysis. Please address points people actually raise, and leave the drifting into irrelevancies alone, so we can make some headway in this close relationship between Ancient Egyptian language and the Bantu phylum. For starters, it would be nice for you to now begin addressing the linguistic issues I raised about your lexical citations, relating Kiswahili to Egyptic, and others thereof. If you don't actually have answers, then that's just fine; simply let me know, and we will leave it there.
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Asar great discussion of the Bantu relationship with Egyptian km and cognate terms in other African languages.
This discussion has been going on for sometime. Early in the discussions we established the fact that the original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was the Sahara and Nile Valley. The Bantu languages belong to the Niger-Congo group. Given the homeland of the Niger -Congo speakers Bantu speakers probably lived in the same region, not the Cameroon.
Great job Asar so far, I hope you will return to discussing deep meanings of Km instead of the surface meanings of the term. We know much about the Egyptian language, but there is much we don't know because researchers have failed to discuss the etymology of most Egyptian terms because they refuse to acknowledge the understandings of these terms which come from knowing African languages.
Keep up the discussion of Ferg's work.
.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: In what way, when the charcoal image "literally" means black, that is, "km". It signifies the color that we call in English "black". Do you assume 'black' in English to primarily be a metaphor or it describes color?
As I said before, the charcoal symbol is used in the context of BLACKENING and NOT JUST the color BLACK. You will run into problems trying to use European (English) concepts and speech to understand African priestly language and symbolism. I gave you the link with a full treaty on the subject and I also referred you to a book on the subject (Fu-Kiau 2001). This concept is not debatable and is something that is wide spread amongst all African metallurgical societies. This is known to all priests in living African systems.
quote: Actually that "charcoal" figure alone is enough to designate "km"; the owl is just presented at times to emphasize the 'm', but doesn't have to be present for the "charcoal" figure to mean and remain as "km" - that is "black".
This says nothing as you are trying to imply that a double consonant would not consist of two words and still have another for emphasis. Mdw Ntr is like all African languages and that it is an agglutinating language system. Words are hidden in the consonant skeleton. The bi or triliteral symbols are used for convenience and to better emphasize the singular phonic and ideographic concepts.
quote: While "kem" in Egyptic may actually sound somewhat more like it has an "h" sound for that "k" at the beginning. How do you correlate the phonological nature of "kem" with "Kaa"? Please explain.
Once again, you are reading Mdw Ntr like a westerner and not like an African person who invented the writing. We can associate "Kaa" or it's varients "Kha" with blackening, a fire process, like all other Bantu words because it is attested to in the Egyptian language itself.
Budge - Hieroglyphic Dictionary /ch/ or /kh/ which is phonetically consistent with /k/. Remember vowels are passive...
pg 285 M'Kha - fire, flame, to burn up
pg 385 Kha - furnace, fire place, cauldron,
pg 531 Khaam - heat, fire, hot, feaver
Gods pg 526 Khe-t-uat-en-Ra -- A FIRE goddess
Khe-t-em-Amentiu --- the FIRE gods of Amenti
Khe-t-ankh-am-f -- a FIERY serpent goddess
Khe-ti -- FIRE spitting serpent
Other pg. 526 Khe-t -- fire, flame, heat, to burn
pg 572 Khamm - to blaze, to be hot
Kha-t -- heated, excited
Kha-t -- people, mankind (attested to in Ferg Somo's essay on Km.t)
******************************
All of the above (save the last entry) deal with a fire process and is attested to in the various Bantu languages already mentioned. The word Km.t is just a play and a agglutination with the word "kaa" or "kha."
quote: But supposedly used in analytical documents of the time, like say, the Kahun papyrus? Matter of fact, doesn't seem that the pharaonic system of governance was separated from ideas of spirituality. What do you suppose all that talk of the living pharaoh symbolizing Horus, while the passed away Pharaoh symbolized the person of Ausar, was all about?
I don't see what you are trying to get at when my argument has partly been about the priesthood of Ta-Meri. You could not (as in all indigenous African societies) hold any place of government without being initiated into the priesthood. So if a governmental official uses "priestly" language, it would fit given the fact he's in the priesthood.
quote: How do you square this with claims that it appears in the "Book of the Dead", which is believed to have been authored sometime by the first Dynasty?
Article titled "Kemet and Other Egyptian Terms for Their Land" written by Ogden Goelet in:
* Ki Baruch Hu: Ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and Judaic Studies in Honor of Baruch A. Levine by R. Chazan, W. W. Hallo, L. H. Schiffman
quote: Quite simply, it is "blackness" or "complete darkness" that is considered "sacred", and generally associated with longivity, fertility, and other traits of strength embodying 'renewal' and eternity.
Once again refer to the other references already cited.
quote: None of which were "Bantu" speakers; you have yet to establish this.
Once again, this has already been established numerous times on this board in several different post about the Bantu vocabulary in Egyptian Language. Scholars like Obenga in "Les Peuples Bantu, Tome Ii : Migrations, Expansion Et Identité Culturelle" & Les Bantu: Langues, peuples, civilisations (Unknown Binding). Ferg Somo has done numerous work on cognates that haven't been published. Also my own research on Bantu spiritual and ritual concepts in Ancient Ta-Meri places the Bantu people in Egypt. Their oral traditions place them in Egypt and the Sahara pre desertification. The Bantu presence in Ta-Meri is established.
A few concepts to demonstrate
Nkwa - life - Akan Nkwa - life/living - Kongo Nkwa kimoyo (a priest)- life (one who is life (fire starter) in the community)- Kongo Nkwi-ki - living - Kongo bantu Ankh (nkwa) - life - Ta-Meri
The root of all of these is /nk/. The /wa/ is a passive suffix which indicates that the subject is being acted upon by an agent. The Ankh symbol is a Bantu symbol for someone who has graduated from the priesthood (an Nganga/ Nkwa-moyo).
Another term
dUa.t = place deceased spirits go, home of asar.
Proto-Bantu dUa - meaning island
In the Egyptian dua.t, all of the land inside the dua.t is referred to as an "island."
I could go on for days on the conceptual ideas expressed in Ta-Merrian culture, but it would take too much space on a message board.
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: Yeah, and after it's been proven over and over agan that the classification does not exist, you and others continue to refer to it. Therefore, it will require persistent correction till it sinks in. So as a reminder again, " It is “Negro-Egyptian” as defined by world renowned linguist and archeologist Dr. Théophile Obenga."
Nope. The opposite has been proven-- that Afrasian exists while "Negro-Egyptien" does not. It has been demonstrated before, yet apparently you are not smart enough to realize this.
By the way, even Mystery is kicking your partner Asar's butt in regards to his ridiculous claims of Egyptian-Bantu connections! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I have yet to see ANY of you disprove what I have posted. All I see is what you tried to do to Dr. Winters, which I pointed in my first post in this thread, is that you argue by authority, not by information. And LOL is not an rebuttal.
And because of your inability to read posts, you make claims that I have not made. Your assumption, from not reading the posts, is that I am claiming Mdw Ntr IS a Bantu language. Once again I will repeat, and any interpretation other what I am saying is a testament to your intelligence.
For those of US who know African history from reading the primary records and recorded oral histories and from actually speaking to the priests who currently live in Africa, what you THINK you know about KM.T is the result of various priesthoods coming together under one lodge system physically located in the Nile Valley.
The major problem was dealing with the languages all across Africa and communicating. This is how Mdw Ntr developed as a writing system. The symbols used were first put together to convey scientific, spiritual and physiological concepts. As Budge believed that on a fundamental level, the meaning of an Egyptian word was originally determined simply by combining the concepts depicted by the glyphs used to write it. For instance
Ai - to cry out
The early usage of Mdw Ntr (and which makes part of the secret aspect of the language) is read IDEOGRAPHICALLY. The above is read
/a/ = a force, to cause, the act of, or any act of force done with the arm (Budge p. cvii) A2 Determinative = eat, drink, speak, tell, feel, think, love
Now one with any knowledge on how human beings "cry out" know that when someone cries out, they "extend their arms forward" as well as project whaling with their mouth. This is how the term came to be. And this is how a lot of glyphs are to be read.
From this point on, Mdw Ntr was attached to concepts from various parts of Africa and included in the grand scheme of Mdw Ntr. This is how you get over 700 Mdw Ntr signs during the old and middle kingdoms. We know that the God /Imn/ is not an original Egyptian deity, but was imported into Egypt from the west. The Dogon and the Akan STILL recognize this deity. The Ankh symbol is NOT native to Egypt but is another import. The cognates do not lie:
quote: Nkwa - life - Akan Nkwa - life/living - Kongo Nkwa kimoyo (a priest)- life (one who is life (fire starter) in the community)- Kongo Nkwi-ki - living - Kongo bantu Ankh (nkwa) - life - Ta-Meri
The root of all of these is /nk/. The /wa/ is a passive suffix which indicates that the subject is being acted upon by an agent. The Ankh symbol is a Bantu symbol for someone who has graduated from the priesthood (an Nganga/ Nkwa-moyo).
Another term
dUa.t = place deceased spirits go, home of asar.
Proto-Bantu dUa - meaning island
In the Egyptian dua.t, all of the land inside the dua.t is referred to as an "island."
How did a Proto-Bantu word end up being a major aspect of Egyptian ritual experience of Rau Nu Pert M Heru (Book of the Dead)?
How is the Bantu Concept of the "V" [Dikenga di-Kongo] for a priest end up as a major symbol of the Egyptian priesthood?
It's because, as I have said and ANY priest in the Dogon, Akan, Yoruba, Igbo, Kongo, Ugandan, Tanzanian, Zulu or Dagara will tell you, it is a brotherhood in Africa of priests that can go anywhere in Africa and can speak to each other. The way they speak to each other is Mdw Ntr.
And to complicate your argument even more, they even have a name for the brotherhood. Can you guess it? The name is called Bonaabakulu AbaseKHEMU -- The Brotherhood of the Higher Ones of Egypt (KM.T - t's are just feminine markings). The science they teach is the Ukwazikwesithabango , which means that science which depends on the power of thought.
You are NOT going to find all elements of the various priesthoods common language in Mdw Ntr. What you will find is the scientific, ethical, physiological, and cosmological concepts and terminology in the glyphs from that particular region respectively.
What you are attempting to argue is not what I am arguing and you are running yourself into circles and useless quotes on something European people, and apparently you, have no knowledge about. As I have said before, you will not know Africa reading a dictionary. Save your money, go travel there, spend some time in the bush, the forest and rural areas and you will learn something. As I said before, if you decide to visit Tanzania, have one of the elder ladies write Mdw Ntr for you in the sand.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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...what you THINK you know about KM.T is the result of various priesthoods coming together under one lodge system physically located in the Nile Valley.
Don't know whom this post was directed to, but I've questions about it:
Various priests...
1)from where *specifically*?
2)when *specifically*?
3)who spoke what language(s) *specifically*?
4)inspired by what to come together, and why the Lower Nile Valley as the choice of location for this coming together?
Are you suggesting that Mdu Ntr...
1)was not accessible to the broader sections of Egyptians, but just a small class of priests?
or that...
...was accessible to broader sections of ancient Egyptians, but only to a small secret society of priests in other parts of the continent?
2)originated elsewhere outside of the Egyptian Nile Valley, as indicated by what evidence?...or have you entertained the thought of where it originated?
3)derived from a proto-Bantu language or some derived Bantu language...or that Bantu languages derive from Mdu Ntr?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The major problem was dealing with the languages all across Africa and communicating. This is how Mdw Ntr developed as a writing system.
"developed as a writing system" specifically where?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The symbols used were first put together to convey scientific, spiritual and physiological concepts. As Budge believed that on a fundamental level, the meaning of an Egyptian word was originally determined simply by combining the concepts depicted by the glyphs used to write it. For instance
Ai - to cry out
The early usage of Mdw Ntr (and which makes part of the secret aspect of the language) is read IDEOGRAPHICALLY. The above is read
Goes back to that question I just asked above, about the "secretive" nature of this language and its script. Elaborate on it.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
/a/ = a force, to cause, the act of, or any act of force done with the arm (Budge p. cvii) A2 Determinative = eat, drink, speak, tell, feel, think, love
Now one with any knowledge on how human beings "cry out" know that when someone cries out, they "extend their arms forward" as well as project whaling with their mouth. This is how the term came to be. And this is how a lot of glyphs are to be read.
From this point on, Mdw Ntr was attached to concepts from various parts of Africa and included in the grand scheme of Mdw Ntr. This is how you get over 700 Mdw Ntr signs during the old and middle kingdoms. We know that the God /Imn/ is not an original Egyptian deity, but was imported into Egypt from the west.
Are you referring to Amun? If so, there is no specific evidence that suggests that it originated outside of the Nile Valley, but I am aware that there are folks out there who look at the Sahara to Egypt's west as a possible predynastic origin for this deity - still very tenuous at best.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The Dogon and the Akan STILL recognize this deity. The Ankh symbol is NOT native to Egypt but is another import.
What *concrete* archaeological evidence do you have that unequivocably demonstrates that the "Ankh symbol is NOT native to Egypt but is another import"?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The cognates do not lie:
quote: Nkwa - life - Akan Nkwa - life/living - Kongo Nkwa kimoyo (a priest)- life (one who is life (fire starter) in the community)- Kongo Nkwi-ki - living - Kongo bantu Ankh (nkwa) - life - Ta-Meri
The root of all of these is /nk/. The /wa/ is a passive suffix which indicates that the subject is being acted upon by an agent. The Ankh symbol is a Bantu symbol for someone who has graduated from the priesthood (an Nganga/ Nkwa-moyo).
I know about the "Ankh" part of it, but in which primary Egyptic text is "nkwa" attested to?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
quote: Another term
dUa.t = place deceased spirits go, home of asar.
Proto-Bantu dUa - meaning island
In the Egyptian dua.t, all of the land inside the dua.t is referred to as an "island."
How did a Proto-Bantu word end up being a major aspect of Egyptian ritual experience of Rau Nu Pert M Heru (Book of the Dead)?
Is this word attested to in the Niger-Congo superphylum, and not just its Bantu subphylum? Is it attested to the Nilo-Saharan superphylum? If so, has it occurred to you, that severance of ties between divergent language superfamilies has not been total, and that similarities tracing back to remote common origins shouldn't be unheard of?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
How is the Bantu Concept of the "V" [Dikenga di-Kongo] for a priest end up as a major symbol of the Egyptian priesthood?
Good question, but an even better question would be, what makes this THE "Bantu concept", suggesting its origin in Bantu speakers?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
It's because, as I have said and ANY priest in the Dogon, Akan, Yoruba, Igbo, Kongo, Ugandan, Tanzanian, Zulu or Dagara will tell you, it is a brotherhood in Africa of priests that can go anywhere in Africa and can speak to each other. The way they speak to each other is Mdw Ntr.
If indeed the "V" concept, as you call it, is not a unique Nile Valley concept, is not possible to go back to that idea of "common origins", not necessarily that Bantu speaking priests brought it there? If not, then please explain why this isn't possible.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
And to complicate your argument even more, they even have a name for the brotherhood. Can you guess it? The name is called Bonaabakulu AbaseKHEMU -- The Brotherhood of the Higher Ones of Egypt (KM.T - t's are just feminine markings). The science they teach is the Ukwazikwesithabango , which means that science which depends on the power of thought.
In which Egyptian relics is this "Brotherhood" attested?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
You are NOT going to find all elements of the various priesthoods common language in Mdw Ntr. What you will find is the scientific, ethical, physiological, and cosmological concepts and terminology in the glyphs from that particular region respectively.
Well, ancient Egyptian spiritual concepts arose from an African background, and indeed has traits typical of spiritual concepts across Africa. Again, "common origins" can account for this. One need not invoke invading Bantu speakers to account for such cultural traits.
Ps - I can see that you've given up on your obligation to rise up to the linguistic challenges put to you, with regards to those lexical citations.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, even Mystery is kicking your partner Asar's butt in regards to his ridiculous claims of Egyptian-Bantu connections! LOL
People with such racist dogmatic epithets against the obvious, irrefutable and crystal clear evidences of Black African genetic connection to its ancient past only further reveal the strong underlying flaws in their internal logic. The very fact that you assume some kind of partnership between me and another member I don’t even know, shows not just the obvious error, but also shows the best kind of objections detractors like you can produce in face of scientific and physical evidences. I’ve read the awesome presentations from member “Asar Imhotep” and others, and I find them to be exceptionally accurate and brilliant in their renderings. You on the other hand, seem to wait on the side lines for someone who can throw a few darts fitting enough to spark that bad’ol, deeply ingrained Eurocentrism, causing you to try pitting members together by saying irrelevant things like : “…even Mystery is kicking your partner Asar's butt…” (this is the best detractor have always been able to produce)
In actuality, many of information presented here so far, has no relevance to you except to prove you and others wrong. Therefore, one needn't concern themselves with commenting on things which are obviously way off the scope of their Eurocentric world view, especially when they contribute nothing concrete to the comprehensively brilliant and highly educational debates, opting instead to make annoying racist and low intelligible comments.
Try as you may, you can’t hide from the truth: Bantu, Negro-Egyptian, Mdu-Ntr, Ancient Kemet, Black Africans are all genetically and biologically permanently connected.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:The major problem was dealing with the languages all across Africa and communicating. This is how Mdw Ntr developed as a writing system.
So why isn't the system found all across Africa?
Maybe because, it was the local/national solution for the time and area it was created? 12,000 years ago vs. 2007, it is easy to see why. Fortunately, things are only scattered and not coompletely destroys, therefore great things can be reconstructed by Black African elites, scientists and specialists.
Now, are their evidence of Mdu-Ntr writings/advancements of Mdu-Ntr in the vast pool of Black African writing systems? Absolutely! And one can go here to see for themselves:
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: People with such racist dogmatic epithets against the obvious, irrefutable and crystal clear evidences of Black African genetic connection to its ancient past only further reveal the strong underlying flaws in their internal logic. The very fact that you assume some kind of partnership between me and another member I don’t even know, shows not just the obvious error, but also shows the best kind of objections detractors like you can produce in face of scientific and physical evidences. I’ve read the awesome presentations from member “Asar Imhotep” and others, and I find them to be exceptionally accurate and brilliant in their renderings. You on the other hand, seem to wait on the side lines for someone who can throw a few darts fitting enough to spark that bad’ol, deeply ingrained Eurocentrism, causing you to try pitting members together by saying irrelevant things like : “…even Mystery is kicking your partner Asar's butt…” (this is the best detractor have always been able to produce)
In actuality, many of information presented here so far, has no relevance to you except to prove you and others wrong. Therefore, one needn't concern themselves with commenting on things which are obviously way off the scope of their Eurocentric world view, especially when they contribute nothing concrete to the comprehensively brilliant and highly educational debates, opting instead to make annoying racist and low intelligible comments.
Try as you may, you can’t hide from the truth: Bantu, Negro-Egyptian, Mdu-Ntr, Ancient Kemet, Black Africans are all genetically and biologically permanently connected.
ROTF I nor anyone in here denies any evidence of Black African genetic connection or continuity. What I do deny is silly assumptions based on faulty linguistics. That ancient Egyptian is an African language spoken by black Africans is not the issue. The issue is your ridiculous claim that it is somehow closer in relation to Bantu than to Berber or Semitic who make up the Afrasian language phylum, a language phylum that originated in Africa among blacks by the way.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Once again, and at this point I am questioning your reading ability, I, nor did anyone else make the claim that Mdw Ntr was more "closely" related to Bantu "than" Berber or the now defunct category of Semetic. What post are you reading? Secondly, you are missing the point because you aren't reading the posts and making poor excuses for rebuttals that are illogical and aren't in alignment with known history.
What I have said is that there are major terms in Mdw Ntr that are also in the Bantu languages. You have yet to rebuttal significantly the information I provide. Only LOL'ds when you can't muster up an argument. Because of Mdw Ntr's affinities with the lexicon (vocabularies) of the Bantu languages, it further brings evidence that the Egyptian language should be reclassified.
The loan words and major Bantu concepts place them in ancient Egypt at the formation of the written language. It is evidenced by the mere terms in both languages that are not chance resemblences. For instance, the very name "NTU" is in the Egyptian language and means the exact same thing.
quote: Bantu Ntu = being, that which exist
Egyptian (Budge Hieroglyphic dictionary pg. 399) Ntt = everything which is, that which is, this which Nti = the thing which is, what is Ntiu = those who are, those who exist, the gods who are
The word /ntu/ in Bantu languages does NOT mean "person" as some ethnographers have erroneously put in books. Ntu means "a being" or "something that exist." It is a noun and you know what type of "being" it is based upon its nominal prefix. As Diop in Civilization or Barbarism has pointed out on pg. 324, here are some known prefixes according to Abbe Kagame:
Mu-Ntu = the intelligent being (human being) Ki-Ntu = non-intelligent being (thing) Ha-Ntu = the localizing being (place-time) Ku-Ntu = the modal being (manner of being)
The nominal prefix tells you what kind of being it is: it's telling you what kind of "thing" exists. The prefix /ba/ makes the human (mu-ntu) plural. So I ask you again, how is it, as according to you that there was no contact of Bantu speaking people in the vicinity of ancient Egypt, that the very word that defines who they are linguistically is found in Mdw Ntr and means the exact same thing? If Bantu is as late as the linguist "guesstamate" than that would mean Bantu derives from the same branch Mdw Ntr comes from. This is why you find proto bantu words in Mdw Ntr (such as dUa and Kaa).
I like how you conveniently ignored the quote I presented from the 1912 article that places the Bantu in the Sahara at the end of the Naptian Pluvial period.
Like I said before, the reason you have Bantu lexical terminology in ancient Egypt is because these people were in Ancient Egypt and some of the words became part of the over all lexicon. It is no different than what we witness in English with French words as part of our everyday lexicon. Just because we have adopted a high number of French words in our Germanic branch of Indo-European, doesn't mean we should look for the same grammar structure. What's important are the words phonetical value, the consonant matches and the meaning of the words being used. Here is some information per Wikipedia on this very phenomenon:
quote: Word origins Influences in English vocabulary Influences in English vocabulary
Main article: Lists of English words of international origin
One of the consequences of the French influence is that the vocabulary of English is, to a certain extent, divided between those words which are Germanic (mostly Old English) and those which are "Latinate" (Latin-derived, either directly from Norman French or other Romance languages).
Numerous sets of statistics have been proposed to demonstrate the various origins of English vocabulary. None, yet, are considered definitive by a majority of linguists.
A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973)[35] that estimated the origin of English words as follows:
* Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3% * Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24% * Other Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English): 25% * Greek: 5.32% * No etymology given: 4.03% * Derived from proper names: 3.28% * All other languages contributed less than 1% (e.g. Arabic-English loanwords)
A survey by Joseph M. Williams in Origins of the English Language of 10,000 words taken from several thousand business letters gave this set of statistics:[36]
However, 83% of the 1,000 most-common English words are Anglo-Saxon in origin.[37]
quote: However, there are other Latinate words that are used normally in everyday speech and do not sound formal; these are mainly words for concepts that no longer have Germanic words, and are generally assimilated better and in many cases do not appear Latinate. For instance, the words mountain, valley, river, aunt, uncle, move, use, push and stay are all Latinate.
This is basic information in linguistics, yet you fail to realize this mainly because you want to place your own interpretation on my post entries.
quote: An exception to this and a peculiarity perhaps unique to English is that the nouns for meats are commonly different from, and unrelated to, those for the animals from which they are produced, the animal commonly having a Germanic name and the meat having a French-derived one. Examples include: deer and venison; cow and beef; swine/pig and pork, or sheep and mutton. This is assumed a result of the aftermath of the Norman invasion, where the French-speaking elite were the consumers of the meat, produced by English-speaking lower classes.
Just like you have a lot a lot of French terms in English because of the "Elite" introduced them, the same with Mdw Ntr because the Bantu speaking minority were priests in the system (Elite).
Your rebuttals are childish and shows you aren't serious about addressing this issue. Arguing from authority does not prove your claim.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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You know, this is a great topic Asar Imhotep. Mystery has also provided good discussion. But none of this will ever get out unless someone puts it in print. We've all seen the effect Black Athena has had on the global Historian community, so it CAN be done. At least try to get it printed in a journal or something.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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@ King Scorpion I am currently working on a publication with this and other archeological evidence that is too much to put on a messageboard: so is Ferg Somo.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I nor anyone in here denies any evidence of Black African genetic connection or continuity. What I do deny is silly assumptions based on faulty linguistics. That ancient Egyptian is an African language spoken by black Africans is not the issue. The issue is your ridiculous claim that it is somehow closer in relation to Bantu than to Berber or Semitic who make up the Afrasian language phylum, a language phylum that originated in Africa among blacks by the way.
Slick but not slick enough; No, you just deny “Black African genetic connection or continuity” with another Black African civilization, Ancient Kemet. The quoted statement above does not qualify the writer in determining what is "faulty linguistics" or not in language subjects regarding Black Africans, especially since such individuals speak none of the Black African languages to actually perceive the staggering high degree of accuracy in the genetic relationship between Bantu, Negro-Kemetian (Negro-Egyptian)and Mdu-Ntr. So the patterned cycle continues; more Eurocentric statements from frustrated detractors, masked as some good willed academics, and sharp eyed educated folks pointing them out.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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Well then, learn to "specify" whom it is that you're addressing, because the depth of issues I've raised herein is not one and same as Djehuti's. If you wish to address me, it is *necessary* that you quote me, and point out what you're addressing, because dodging my points, and then saying that they somehow haven't addressed your claims, is one disingenuousness that'll prove to be very futile.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Once again, and at this point I am questioning your reading ability,
You should be more concerned about assessing your own reading ability rather than others, as it is you who continues to dodge questions asked of you, along with specific rebuttals to your claims. You dodge them, and then proclaim nobody has demonstrated your claims to be unfounded and/or shaky.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I, nor did anyone else make the claim that Mdw Ntr was more "closely" related to Bantu "than" Berber or the now defunct category of Semetic.
It may not be yourself, but yes, somebody here did say that Egyptic is more related to Niger-Congo superphylum and its Bantu subphylum than either "Berber" or Semitic.
Semitic is a defunct language subphylum, according to whom and why?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Secondly, you are missing the point because you aren't reading the posts and making poor excuses for rebuttals that are illogical and aren't in alignment with known history.
Well, point out what specific rebuttals are illogical and why. How can you proclaim that rebuttals don't make sense, when you dodge them? Isn't it you then, who is missing the points by willful ignorance [I hope] out of fear of being quickly discredited?
Case in point, there are a whole host of questions I asked you in my last post, but not a whimper of an answer from you addressing its specifics. You've been challenged to establish the etymological and phonological aspects of those Freg Somo Lexical citations, attempting to relate Kiswahali to Egyptic, and you fell flat on answers to that. You've been challenged to demonstrate with objective *evidence* that Bantu speakers were ever in the Sahara, and you come up with none. You've been shown that your idea of "kem" being denoted by "two consonants" is bunk, and your reaction to this, is to not address that challenge, but to open up a new thread that takes you no further than your situation here.
My friend, "dodging" isn't called "addressing"; the two actions contrast with one another.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
What I have said is that there are major terms in Mdw Ntr that are also in the Bantu languages. You have yet to rebuttal significantly the information I provide.
I've already addressed your Freg Somo lexical citations point by point, and where necessary, put challenges to you before we went any further. You made a rash promise to address these, but it was never to be. So yes, the inability to comeback and deliver should be interpreted as something that strongly puts to question, the credibility of your compilations and perhaps, the level to which you even understand your own citations.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Because of Mdw Ntr's affinities with the lexicon (vocabularies) of the Bantu languages, it further brings evidence that the Egyptian language should be reclassified.
Language affinities goes beyound superficial similarities that may or may not be tenuous. We can explore this, not only via lexical cognates, which should include the broad spectrum of phonological traits and root-terms, but also an eloborate analysis of grammatic rules languages adhere to.
You haven't yet used these comparative methods to demonstrate close relationship between the Bantu subphylum and Egyptic. Your lexical comparisons hasn't been elaborate in any sense to suggest close relationship, as evidence by your inability to reproduce the root terms of the Kemetic terms, as well as their true phonological traits.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The loan words and major Bantu concepts place them in ancient Egypt at the formation of the written language. It is evidenced by the mere terms in both languages that are not chance resemblences. For instance, the very name "NTU" is in the Egyptian language and means the exact same thing.
quote: Bantu Ntu = being, that which exist
Egyptian (Budge Hieroglyphic dictionary pg. 399) Ntt = everything which is, that which is, this which Nti = the thing which is, what is Ntiu = those who are, those who exist, the gods who are
The word /ntu/ in Bantu languages does NOT mean "person" as some ethnographers have erroneously put in books. Ntu means "a being" or "something that exist." It is a noun and you know what type of "being" it is based upon its nominal prefix.
‘Ntt’ is but the feminine modification of Nty [masculine singular], which represent pronouns such as “which”, “who”, or “What” . The plural feminine form is essentially the same as the feminine singular counterpart of “ntt“, whereas the masculine plural form finds expression as “ntw“ [Collier & Manley 1998], while its been noted elsewhere ‘ntt’ is a conjunction equivalent to “that”, which when paired with a preposition in a compound conjunction, can function as conjunctions of the type: “so that” , “because”, and ‘since” via “r-ntt”, "hr-ntt", and "dr-ntt" respectively; “wnn” is equivalent to “to be” or “exist“, with “wnt“ being the feminine derivative [Antonio Loprieno 1995; Jim Loy 1998]. In another occasion, ‘ntt’ is the equivalent of ‘you’, as the feminine singular form of ‘ntk’ - the plural sense for such, happens to be ‘nttn’ [Jim Loy 1998]. As for “those”, we have ‘nf’ [although it can also represent ’that’ in neuter form] , the feminine version of which has already been noted above, while in its plural format, it becomes ‘nw’ ~ “these”.
And from Wally’s citations I suppose, we learn that:
...here's some more terms ebien- wretched; poor man eibata- servent; slave esu- light minded; unstable eges.t- vile; wretched behau- coward nti hati- senseless man, fool libe- fool ha-her- foul face tikr- eunich (coptic: skour;siour) seba- devil temum.t- a damned person sha.t- bitch sag- foolish man (coptic: soq=fool) ntiu - worthless ones; the damned
and this is not a derogatory term, but still a bad place to be... nn kat - unemployed
Much of these are derived Egyptic terms, whose roots appear to be relatively distinct from the derived term. For instance, we've seen that ’ntt’ in whatever occasion it presented itself, was actually a feminine derivative of either ’nty’, ’ntk’ or ’nf’. The point being, as we attempt to relate any Bantu or proto-Bantu term with Egyptic, the nature of the root of that term has to be well understood first…along with the phonological aspects of the terms of course.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The nominal prefix tells you what kind of being it is: it's telling you what kind of "thing" exists. The prefix /ba/ makes the human (mu-ntu) plural. So I ask you again, how is it, as according to you that there was no contact of Bantu speaking people in the vicinity of ancient Egypt, that the very word that defines who they are linguistically is found in Mdw Ntr and means the exact same thing?
Read above, and while you're at it, I ask you again, what *objective* set of evidence do you have that suggests that Bantu speakers ever lived in the Sahara, let alone coastal north African regions like Egypt?
1)Certainly, linguistically none is located there.
3)Temporal and spatial lingual history assessment of the Bantu subphylum, does not place it in either the Sahara or the lower Nile Valley.
4)Genetic evidence doesn't support their presence in the Nile Valley, at least to the extent that Bantu speakers are differentiated from other Niger-Congo speaking groups. For instance, why is it that only the Benin Haplotype HbS is noted in Egypt, central and eastern Sahara, but not the Bantu haplotype?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
If Bantu is as late as the linguist "guesstamate" than that would mean Bantu derives from the same branch Mdw Ntr comes from. This is why you find proto bantu words in Mdw Ntr (such as dUa and Kaa).
Which branch would that be, and from what language superphylum?
Your idea of "Kaa" has already been discredited, and your idea of "dua" was already questioned - which you decided was too complicated of a question to answer.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I like how you conveniently ignored the quote I presented from the 1912 article that places the Bantu in the Sahara at the end of the Naptian Pluvial period.
And I like how incapacitated in your reading skills you are, to come to the idea that it was ignored.
That claim is no more than heresay; it lacks objective evidence of any kind, that places Bantu speakers in the Sahara -
* like pottery and other archaeological items peculiar to Bantu groups,
* lacks specifics of where in the Sahara,
* lacks accountability in the distribution pattern of Bantu languages,
* lacks any insight into a specific temporal and spatial spread of Bantu languages, much less confront the details which tell us about directions in which the language flowed, e.g. Western stream and Eastern streams.
* lacks any insight into bio-historical progression of this Bantu movement from their supposed home location in the Sahara to the Nile Valley or anywhere else for that matter.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Like I said before, the reason you have Bantu lexical terminology in ancient Egypt is because these people were in Ancient Egypt and some of the words became part of the over all lexicon.
Repeating unsubstantiated claims means nothing; however, if you were to actually answer the questions posed in my last post, you will realize that there is more work cut out for you, in maintaining this claim about Bantu being in the Sahara and lower Nile Valley. The questions haven't gone anywhere, if you care to address them in our lifetime.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
It is no different than what we witness in English with French words as part of our everyday lexicon. Just because we have adopted a high number of French words in our Germanic branch of Indo-European, doesn't mean we should look for the same grammar structure. What's important are the words phonetical value, the consonant matches and the meaning of the words being used. Here is some information per Wikipedia on this very phenomenon:
quote: Word origins Influences in English vocabulary Influences in English vocabulary
Main article: Lists of English words of international origin
One of the consequences of the French influence is that the vocabulary of English is, to a certain extent, divided between those words which are Germanic (mostly Old English) and those which are "Latinate" (Latin-derived, either directly from Norman French or other Romance languages).
Numerous sets of statistics have been proposed to demonstrate the various origins of English vocabulary. None, yet, are considered definitive by a majority of linguists.
A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973)[35] that estimated the origin of English words as follows:
* Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3% * Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24% * Other Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English): 25% * Greek: 5.32% * No etymology given: 4.03% * Derived from proper names: 3.28% * All other languages contributed less than 1% (e.g. Arabic-English loanwords)
A survey by Joseph M. Williams in Origins of the English Language of 10,000 words taken from several thousand business letters gave this set of statistics:[36]
However, 83% of the 1,000 most-common English words are Anglo-Saxon in origin.[37]
However, there are other Latinate words that are used normally in everyday speech and do not sound formal; these are mainly words for concepts that no longer have Germanic words, and are generally assimilated better and in many cases do not appear Latinate. For instance, the words mountain, valley, river, aunt, uncle, move, use, push and stay are all Latinate.
Your using those European languages to equate their situation to that of Bantu-Egyptic is funny, because those folks have interacted over long periods of time; you have yet to demonstrate that Bantu speaking groups were ever anywhere near the ancient Egyptians during predynastic Egypt, dynastic and post dynastic ancient periods, and in the Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Just like you have a lot a lot of French terms in English because of the "Elite" introduced them, the same with Mdw Ntr because the Bantu speaking minority were priests in the system (Elite).
...which I take it, is why you were unable to answer the questions posed in my last post about the historical whereabouts of these Bantu priests, and Mdu Ntr status in ancient Egyptian and Bantu societies?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Your rebuttals are childish and shows you aren't serious about addressing this issue. Arguing from authority does not prove your claim.
What specific rebuttal is childish and why? Making such claim devoid of specifics, like an emotional brat, shows that you're too intellectually challenged to use common sense, and communicate as a human being & in a mature way.
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posted
Linguistically evidence is one of the strongest and most reliable kinds of evidences available to show movement and origin of a people. Equally valid of course, are surviving artifacts, writing systems and things like that. With that in mind, bastardization and perversions of valid anthropological demonstrations actually tells more about the behaviors and frustrations of the detractor, rather than the evidences targeted.
So we know that there is no such thing as “Afriasian”. The correct term is “Negro-Egyptian” (preferably “Negro-Kemetian”) and Bantu is genetically connected to “Mdu-Ntr”. Considering the sheer amount of surviving language contents of Mdu-Ntr meaning within the vast Bantu languages, it proves Bantu people were in and closely around Ancient Kemet before migrating down thousands of years ago. Cringe as detractors may when they’re forced to read such truth, it is a pill they will inevitably have to come to accept.
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quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Linguistically evidence is one of the strongest and most reliable kinds of evidences available to show movement and origin of a people. Equally valid of course, are surviving artifacts, writing systems and things like that. With that in mind, bastardization and perversions of valid anthropological demonstrations actually tells more about the behaviors and frustrations of the detractor, rather than the evidences targeted
^ Both Mystery Solver and Asar are having a good discussion.
Please don't distract from it with this kind of empty noise-making, where you talk to hear yourself talk while saying nothing.
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quote:Once again, and at this point I am questioning your reading ability, I, nor did anyone else make the claim that Mdw Ntr was more "closely" related to Bantu "than" Berber
^ Clyde Winters claims this.
quote:What post are you reading?
In order for us to understand your position please clarify.
- You acknowledge that Berber is and African language, and so related to other African languages, true or false?
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Useless repetition fallacy. When will you ever learn Dr. Winters that no matter how many times you repeat a fallacy it does not make it so. 
(KM[mdj3t]) in Vol. V on pg. 124 & pp. 128-130. 
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