posted
^ LOL Indeed. When will this nonsense about projecting Bantu onto Egyptian end? Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Swahili is not related to Ancient egyptian i dont think we have a clear understanding of ancient kemetic language to even come to this conclusion. If u really notice i think that alot of egyptologist dont have the exact sounds that the kemetians were using nor do lingustic have a full understanding of any ancient language there is still alot of digging to be done. For instance no one even can explain what does the word Geza come from and what does it mean. For instance i speak Tigre Te-Bedawi, Hedareb, and Arabic i have noticed a few books on language have completely wrong translations for words and totally wrong sounds for words in Te-Bedawi. Modern Languages we have alot of information on but older languages like Geez,Hieroglyphics,Merotic text,phonecian,Babylonian,Sumerian these languages we still need alot of Work on.
Posts: 68 | Registered: Nov 2007
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Creating a new thread on a matter raised appropriately in another discussion, doesn't soothen the challenge:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
You are wrong once again.
Saying something is wrong, doesn't make it so. It has to be demonstrated.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The CONSONANTS KM represents BLACK in Mdw Ntr.
No question about that; "Charcoal" is a singular mentonymy for "kem". It isn't a necessity to add any other glyph to this sign, to make it known that it quite simply means "kem" in its own right.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The argument is that the KM, which is symbolized by charcoal which is NOT a natural occurring product, is PRONOUNCED KaaUma.
And what Nile Valley lingual indicators have brought you to that conclusion?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The M or "Uma" is there to let you know in what context the KM is referencing. Charcoal is used to extract metals from orche (metallurgy) and is used for heating and cooking.
You're convincing yourself of this, by ignoring what I've told you time and again, about the 'charcoal' alone being enough to designate "Km", even without the owl or any other symbol for 'm'. But if diagrammatically I must demonstrate this to you, then so be it:
Recap:
Originally posted by Supercar:
Without determinatives:
Km [musculine] =
Km.t[feminine] = ........................Km....t
On a side note:
Km is 'black', in musculine singular.
Km.t is also 'black', in feminine singular. The "t" is simply added to connote the feminine context of the term. It doesn't mean "the".
Contextualization of Km.t
...by just applying determinatives like...
Km.t[nw.t] > equivalent to black people/ the blacks
Km.t[yw] > equivalent to citizens/black people
Kememou > again black people, an alternative to the above
[rm.t].km.t > again citizens/black people
^...just a few examples amongst many, showing how the determinative can contextualize Km.t [feminine]
Now, looking at Diop's reproduction of Worterbuch compilations, consistent with what I demonstrated above in glyphs, and what I've been saying to you all along:
^Look at the various instances where "km.t" appears in glyphs: Do you see any owl symbol in these variants, let alone any other symbol to take the place of the owl as a denotation of 'm'? If not, then why?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
I am not, for the last time, NOT saying that KM does not mean black. I am telling you that it also means "to blacken," "burnt," "completely burnt" as attested to in the other African languages.
I'm telling you that your resort to modifications of 'black' into verb-forms or adjective-forms, has no bearing on kem's primary denotation of the "black" color. Since we all acknowledge that, then it is settled.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As mentioned before, the consonants in the other African languages describe a process of blackening, NOT just a color.
"Not just a color" is just a non-starter; it is the 'color' in question which embodies whatever it is that the determinant is trying to communicate in the derivatives of Egyptic "kem". So of course to that end, it will no longer "just" be a color.
That "charcoal" [or part of a "crocodile skin" according to some folks] alone is "Kem", not "Kaa" to be supplimented with "m" denoted by the owl figure as suggested in the opening post. It is based on this premise, that the opening post talks of "two consonants" in "Kem", which as I have demonstrated in the other thread and now here, is ridiculous. The rest of the argument seems to have been built up around this fundamental flaw, which renders it legless.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Once again, I hate to point out your lack of knowledge of ancient Egyptian. You are still under the impression that the consonants KM are set consonents unto themselves and they are not. Bi and tri-literals are the combining (agglutination) of two separate consonants. They are not "letters" unto themselves. They represent two or three separate consonants. If Egyptian was not an agglutinative language, then the following "uniliterals" would be considered "bi-literals"
/ch/ or /kh/
/ch/ or /kh/
/sh/
/tj/
/dj/
These sited above are NOT bi-literals, but are uniliterals. Each uniliteral represents a word unto themselves. A few examples:
/b/ = place /w/ = to grow /r/ = mouth /dj/ = sound
Budge Page 981b. gives another name for Km.t which is BaKaa.
quote: Budge gives the following source for his reference, Rev. 13, 84 Revue Egyptologique puliee sous la direction de MM. Brugh, F. Chabas, and Eug. Revillout. Premiere Anne Paris, 1880. The last volume (vol xiv) appeared in 1912.
This name for the Egyptians further disproves your erroneous notion of word Km.t to simply mean "black." We have already established what the word Kaa (Kha) means in the Egyptian writing. It is the same as in the writings for the Bantu.
The glyphs used are the foot (b) and the hill (Q) glyphs. The Q sound is a hard /k/. Here are the following meanings for words which have the root qaa or qa (kaa) in the Egyptian language per Budge dictionary:
quote: Budge pg. 760 Q,a-[t]-em-sepu-s -- a FIRE goddess
pg. 764a qarr - burnt offerings
pg 765a qahi-t -- fire
pg 765b qat -- fire, heat
As already has been mentioned prior to this post
quote: Budge - Hieroglyphic Dictionary /ch/ or /kh/ which is phonetically consistent with /k/. Remember vowels are passive...
pg 285 M'Kha - fire, flame, to burn up
pg 385 Kha - furnace, fire place, cauldron,
pg 531 Khaam - heat, fire, hot, feaver
Gods pg 526 Khe-t-uat-en- Ra -- A FIRE goddess
Khe-t-em-Amentiu --- the FIRE gods of Amenti
Khe-t-ankh-am- f -- a FIERY serpent goddess
Khe-ti -- FIRE spitting serpent
Other pg. 526 Khe-t -- fire, flame, heat, to burn
pg 572 Khamm - to blaze, to be hot
Kha-t -- heated, excited
Kha-t -- people, mankind (attested to in Ferg Somo's essay on Km.t)
As noted in other post, the Egyptian written language has what they call "defining" words - words that help to define other words which often use bi and tri-literal glyphs.
Once again, and you keep skating around the definitions, /kaa/ is attested to in the ancient egyptian and meets the lexical, morphological and phonetic variations for the terms in Bantu and Egyptian. Kaa is attested to in the other name for Km.t which is BaKaa (Budge pg. 951a). The kaa is the hidden noun in KM.t. It is no different than the Yoruba name Oduduwa hiding the word "OLUDU for the word ODU. Ol is a contraction itself of the word OLUWA meaning "lord or owner" and ODU means "container." Yoruba, just like Mdw Ntr, is an Agglutinative language - the common words hide larger words and are combined and contracted to make the common use word.
We do this in slang with English. Anyone in the Hip Hop generation will say "nahmean" instead of "do you know what I mean?." That is agglutination.
If you have an issue with the scholarship, provide an assessment based on the primary documentation and actual word usages. Quite skating around the issues and provide an adequate counter.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Once again, I hate to point out your lack of knowledge of ancient Egyptian.
And I once again, hate to point out your lack of literacy.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
You are still under the impression that the consonants KM are set consonents unto themselves and they are not.
Read the above, and this gibberish would be case in point. I've already told you numerous times now, and even went so far as to pictographically demonstrated it to you, that the 'charcoal' or 'crocodile' skin symbol is a standalone term for 'km' and metonymy for the 'black' color. Therefore there are no "two consonants" in that term. The charcoal symbol works in a way not too different from the ankh symbol, which when it appears, simply put, communicates "ankh". Is the difficulty of reading that bad?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Bi and tri-literals are the combining (agglutination) of two separate consonants. They are not "letters" unto themselves. They represent two or three separate consonants. If Egyptian was not an agglutinative language, then the following "uniliterals" would be considered "bi-literals"
More evidence, that your reading skills have severely failed you. Read above, and see if you won't unnecessarily confuse yourself again.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As noted in other post, the Egyptian written language has what they call "defining" words - words that help to define other words which often use bi and tri-literal glyphs.
Once again, and you keep skating around the definitions, /kaa/ is attested to in the ancient egyptian and meets the lexical, morphological and phonetic variations for the terms in Bantu and Egyptian.
Where is "kaa" attested to in Egyptic, that means "black" and denoted by what symbol, which is distinct from that 'charcoal' or 'crocodile' skin symbol? We will soon learn how many more skating you'll do around what I've been trying to get you to see, as even any person with below average intelligence would do.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Kaa is attested to in the other name for Km.t which is BaKaa (Budge pg. 951a).
Well, let's have the hieroglyphic representations of this "attestation".
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
The kaa is the hidden noun in KM.t.
Kaa isn't hidden; it doesn't exist in "kem". And just for your enlightenment, I'd like to expose you to the understanding that "Kmt" is nothing else but the feminine version of Kem, as noted above...to be supplemented by a determinative where necessary. This also the reason the owl that you make such a big deal about, as representing a consonant that turns "kaa" into "kaUMA", doesn't appear in "Km.t", as it appears in that Diop piece, the Kahun papyrus, and interestingly in your own intro post. I don't think it is a big mystery as to why you haven't answered the question asked of you, pertaining to this phenomena?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Quite skating around the issues and provide an adequate counter.
I've done that; quit being dumb or illiterate, and you'll instantly recognize this.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote: I've already told you numerous times now, and even went so far as to pictographically demonstrated it to you, that the 'charcoal' or 'crocodile' skin symbol is a standalone term for 'km' and metonymy for the 'black' color. Therefore there are no "two consonants" in that term.
I want you to answer how you defend a Bi-literal is not two consonants. Here on the Ancient Egypt site they tell us plain as day -
quote: Biliteral signs are signs that represent a combination of two consonants. The following list provides an overview of the most common biliteral signs. It is recommended to learn these signs and their transcription by heart. The column "Sign" gives the actual uniliteral sign.
The column "Transcription" provides the transcription of this sign. The last column, "Nr." refers to the signlist as provided by the Egyptian Grammar of Gardiner.
If you visit the link KM is under Bi-Literals.
Let's deal with this first before we address anything else. How will you lie your way out of this one.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Now that we have established that bi-literals are the combination of two uniliteral consonants, we can further establish that the single consonants represent words unto themselves as has been demonstrated by the few examples below:
/b/ = place /w/ = to grow /r/ = mouth /dj/ = sound
This means that when two or three uniliteral glyphs are combined to create bi and tri-literals, it is the combining of two words, not just two consonant sounds.
You can't do comparative linguistics without comparing the cosmological and philosophical concepts between the various cultures. You know for sure if the two languages being compared are related, not only in grammatical and lexical structures, but in its philosophy and metaphoric usages. The Egyptian people were like any other African people, they used puns and metaphors to convey greater complex philosophies.
One of these complex philosophies hidden in the word Km.t is the concept of fire, heat as a metaphor of creation. I provided a link that articulates this very subject in Rwanda that people have failed to read. I will post the most important part relevant to this discussion that gives you a clue as to why the Egyptians chose a piece of charcoal to represent the color black and actually what they mean by the term:
Gakondo The Oral Literature of Rwanda presented by Rose-Marie Mukarutabana
The Symbolism of Fire in Rwanda Tradition
quote: Our God is a Smith, not a Potter In our Creation Story, Mankind was "birthed" by means of a fire brought from heaven by the Sons of Nkuba. This fire, or divine energy, came to man as the energy of thought, or mental activity, which is indeed "fire": it can now be recorded by modern science and charted out on EEGs (electroencephalographs). This concept of "fire" as the best means of representing divine creative energy is central to our traditional Wisdom Teachings. Hence, God, represented as "Nkuba", or Cosmic Energy, is not a Potter God as in the bible, but a Smith God: He did not create man using earth, water and breath, as we read in the book of Genesis, but He "forged" him -- as He did with the rest of creation -- using metal, fire, air and water to temper the forged form. (However, when taken in their ultimate meaning, the biblical and Rwandan symbolisms amount to the same, for metal is analogous to earth, and while breath is air, divine breath is definitely "fiery".)
A well-known joke shows that Rwandans relate creation to metallurgy. A couple had escaped alone to a foreign land. "But how could you leave your children behind? -- Oh! Never mind that! We'll make some more! Tuzany inyundo ibacura, tuzanye n'uruganda! We've brought the hammer and the workshop (his penis and her womb)." On a more refined note, the sacred Hammer of the Kings of Rwanda (Ingabe-Nyundo), a ritual object said to be of celestial origin, was known as "Inyund icur Abaami", the Hammer which "forges the Kings" out of mere humans, just as these were forged out of the "cave man".
The letter /k/ in African languages is the principle sound of "change and transformation" (kaa). The sons of NKUBA are the ones who brought this fire to humanity according to the myth. As I have pointed out before:
Nkwa - life - Akan Nkwa - life/living - Kongo Nkwa kimoyo (a priest)- life (one who is life (fire starter) in the community)- Kongo Nkwi-ki - living - Kongo bantu Ankh (nkwa) - life - Ta-Meri
The root of all of these is /nk/. The /wa/ is a passive suffix which indicates that the subject is being acted upon by an agent. The Ankh symbol is a Bantu symbol for someone who has graduated from the priesthood (an Nganga/ Nkwa-moyo).
The root, nk, is a word meaning divine fire as in the Bantu-Kongo a priest is known as a "fire-starter" or "coal-fighter," meaning one who is the LIFE of the community and the consonants NK are in the above African words for life.
This /k/ sound meaning fire, heat which turns things black is in all of the Niger-Kongo words that deal with Blackness or blackening. The word Kaa also means charcoal and is in all of the words which mean charcoal:
quote: Mbochi, i-kama, to blacken Tsonga-Bantu, Khala, a piece charcoal Mongo-Bantu, Wala, place where charcoal is prepared Rikwangali-Bantu, ekara, a piece of charcoal Oshinddonga-Bantu, ekala, charcoal Zulu-Bantu, (li)-lahle, cinder, piece of charcoal, a very dark person. Chichewa-Bantu, khala, piece of charcoal
As already been proven, the term Kaa/kha to mean fire, heat is attested to in the Egyptian language itself:
quote: Budge - Hieroglyphic Dictionary /ch/ or /kh/ which is phonetically consistent with /k/. Remember vowels are passive...
pg 285 M'Kha - fire, flame, to burn up
pg 385 Kha - furnace, fire place, cauldron,
pg 531 Khaam - heat, fire, hot, feaver
Gods pg 526 Khe-t-uat-en-Ra -- A FIRE goddess
Khe-t-em-Amentiu --- the FIRE gods of Amenti
Khe-t-ankh-am-f -- a FIERY serpent goddess
Khe-ti -- FIRE spitting serpent
Other pg. 526 Khe-t -- fire, flame, heat, to burn
pg 572 Khamm - to blaze, to be hot
Kha-t -- heated, excited
Kha-t -- people, mankind (attested to in Ferg Somo's essay on Km.t)
Just like in Rwanda (and all Bantu speaking countries) Kaa/Kha (heat, fire, forging) is related to human beings because they believe creation and life is a fire process. This is why charcoal was used to convey this message.
We know Km.t hides the word Kaa in it because the OTHER name for Km.t is BaKaa (Budge 981b). Km.t is just another way of saying BaKaa. The same principles apply.
I have also demonstrated how Egyptians had defining words for other words. I will repeat the example below:
quote: If you want to know the definition of a word, based on its symbols, the Egyptian language itself employs a method of defining words as a way of explicitly describing the glyphs. The criteria for identifying an Egyptian defining word would be
quote: the common usage meaning of the word should express the ideographic concept depicted by the glyph, and the written form of the word should display the defined glyph, and the written form of the word should display the defined glyph as the final glyph of the word.
For example, how do we know the word /nu/ means “to tie, to bind together?” The written word itself possesses a glyph that gives a hint to its meaning: the adze glyph – wood carving tool used to shape wood.
/nu/ to tie or bind
The word /nu/ hides another word /an-t/ which means to shape and uses the "adze" glyph just as well.
/an-t/ adze - a wood working tool used to shape
The word /an-t/ is an "Egyptian Defining Word" because it defines the determinative used to convey the meaning. So from this we know any word with the "adze" symbol as to do with the shaping of something.
The "adze" glyph is used in the word /nu/ above to hint the "shaping" of the determinatives (coiled and tied strings - string theory) of a scientific concept of the shaping of waves (the water symbol) into matter (the clay pot). Now, (and this is why you talk to priests on the continent) the proper way to read the glyps for /nu/ in the above example is:
quote: /nu/ to tie or bind
waves (water) form and/or shape (adze) particles/matter (clay pot) from coiled threads (coiled rope) followed by the tied rope determinative
The word /nu/ also means "adze" the wood carving tool
/nu/ = adze (wood carving tool used to shape wood)
Well there is another meaning for /nu/ and it has nothing to do with tying. It is a demonstrative particle and means “this or these.” By what criteria when hearing the words without the glyphs would you know which is being used (outside of context)?
/nu/ = this, these
Trying to understand African priestly conventions through a western dictionary is a guaranteed way to not get it.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Kaa isn't hidden; it doesn't exist in "kem". And just for your enlightenment, I'd like to expose you to the understanding that "Kmt" is nothing else but the feminine version of Kem, as noted above...to be supplemented by a determinative where necessary. This also the reason the owl that you make such a big deal about, as representing a consonant that turns "kaa" into "kaUMA", doesn't appear in "Km.t", as it appears in that Diop piece, the Kahun papyrus, and interestingly in your own intro post. I don't think it is a big mystery as to why you haven't answered the question asked of you, pertaining to this phenomena?
-> I would like this to be addressed as well.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
It's all been addressed as a "bi-literal" is TWO "uniliterals" combined. The biliteral /k/ gives you the KAA sound. What I'd like addressed by both of you is how this can't be so when the other name for Km.t is BaKaa (Budge 981b).
Anyone sticking a "e" inside of KM is guesstomating, including Diop. If Diop is claiming that the Egyptian language is related to the Niger-Congo languages just like Wolof, then he knows good and well that words in these languages are agglutinated and are contractions of larger words when it comes to nouns. I've given many examples including the one right above the post you posted with the term /nu/ meaning to tie or bind. It is hiding the word /an.t/ for the "adze" glyph which means to shape and helps to define what is being tied or bound.
To relate it in context to another west African language, Yoruba (which he relates the Egyptian language)
Ooni - King ..the word Ooni hides the following words
"Omo Oluwo Ni" it's shortened variant is "Owoni"
Olodumare - the sixteen principal odus ...it hides the words Oluwa = lord, owner o = you du = exert (also means container) Mare = to go forward
All the words taken together means "owner of the everlasting odus."
This kind of agglutination is very common and is the same principal at work here. I want you to address, again, BaKaa (Budge 981b)for the name of Egypt and tell me how Kaa is not related to the name. Also, what are the consonants KM supposed to represent since it has already been established that biliterals are two uniliterals to make a compound word (agglutination).
quote: Biliteral signs are signs that represent a combination of two consonants. The following list provides an overview of the most common biliteral signs. It is recommended to learn these signs and their transcription by heart. The column "Sign" gives the actual uniliteral sign.
The column "Transcription" provides the transcription of this sign. The last column, "Nr." refers to the signlist as provided by the Egyptian Grammar of Gardiner.
This is clear as day they represent two separate uniliteral consonants. IF they didn't, the the following UNILITERAL consonants would be CONSIDERED bi-literal consonants
/ch/ or /kh/ /sh/ /tj/ /dj/
Although they have two consonants, they don't represent two separate uniliteral consonants. So you address that first.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Now that we have established that bi-literals are the combination of two uniliteral consonants, we can further establish that the single consonants represent words unto themselves as has been demonstrated by the few examples below:
Too bad you're busy "establishing" non-issues, when you should have been busy learning, that it is precisely this highlighted piece that turns the claim made in your intro post on its head.
"Kem" is not the product of two disparate or autonomous "uniliteral" terms turned into a two consonant term; rather, a singular standalone symbol is used to denote "kem" in its *entirety*. In otherwords, the charcoal/crocodile symbol is the singular symbol that has the already-by-nature biliteral "Kem" inbuilt. This is as simple as it'll get, to explain this, as the pictographic and other simple demonstrations were apparently not adequate enough.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
/b/ = place /w/ = to grow /r/ = mouth /dj/ = sound
This means that when two or three uniliteral glyphs are combined to create bi and tri-literals, it is the combining of two words, not just two consonant sounds.
See above. "kem" isn't = "kaa" [charcoal/crocodile skin] + "m or what you call Uma" [owl figure]
However, "kem" does = "kem" [charcoal]
...in many cases, the owl figure supplements the charcoal/crocodile skin glyph, but does nothing to affect the term itself, in which case, one gets this:
The owl is more of an indicator here that the term is just as it is, which in this case, is "Kem"; it is not meant to attach any additional meaning to "kem", which is inbuilt in the 'charcoal/crocodile skin' glyph. Evidence of this shows in those derivatives of "kem" where the owl isn't present, nor replaced by any other glyph for a uniliteral 'm' - and we know that such a scenario is very real, as it appears in the Kahun papyrus.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
^ It seems like Asar is putting forth his Bantu linguistics onto Mdu-Neter (an Afrasian language).
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ It seems like Asar is putting forth his Bantu linguistics onto Mdu-Neter (an Afrasian language).
To the contrary, Asar is merely explaining African languages in a new, valid, and important manner; and who is also not caught up in the false dogma of "Mdu-Ntr is an Afrasian language" ---
It would also be helpful here to give comparative examples of Mdu Ntr and Coptic, the language's latest stage, to compare for example:
quote: Asar gave examples of: /b/ = place /w/ = to grow /r/ = mouth /dj/ = sound
place = kw/ma (Wolof = bw) mouth/door = rw to grow = rwt sound = w0 (also "dj" = 'jay' or more often 'jah' ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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^ It seems like Asar is putting forth his Bantu linguistics onto Mdu-Neter (an Afrasian language).
To the contrary, Asar is merely explaining African languages in a new, valid, and important manner; and who is also not caught up in the false dogma of "Mdu-Ntr is an Afrasian language" ---
Wally, it would be nice if you put your money where your mouth is, with regards to this claim about "false dogma". What other way could this have been done better than to take up the opportunities afforded to you, which you allowed to slip through your fingers, when these topics were being discussed:
^You've been relatively mute on these topics, particularly when it came to challenges put before the skeptics of the Afrasan superphylum and its association with Ancient Egyptian; was this an accident?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote: "Kem" is not the product of two disparate or autonomous "uniliteral" terms turned into a two consonant term; rather, a singular standalone symbol is used to denote "kem" in its *entirety*. In otherwords, the charcoal/crocodile symbol is the singular symbol that has the already-by-nature biliteral "Kem" inbuilt. This is as simple as it'll get, to explain this, as the pictographic and other simple demonstrations were apparently not adequate enough.
Once again, your hypothosis is flawed because 1)there is no indication in ANY Egyptian record that the letter "e" belongs in the middle of the consonants K and M respectively. You are guessing based upon the same term in various other African languages.
quote: KaMa meaning Black in Coptic, iKaMa meaning Blackened in Mbochi, KaMi Burnt in Bambara, KeMi Burnt in Mandjakou, KeM Burnt in Wolof, Kim meaning Burnt in Mossi, etc...
Here we see clear as day 3 different vowels in between K and M. The majority convention is CVCV. A vowel ends these words in other African languages. As can be seen in the Mbochi and the Coptic the letter "a" is after the consonant "k,"
quote: KaMa meaning Black in Coptic, iKaMa meaning Blackened in Mbochi,
Let's not limit the term to just the above, let's list some more African nations:
quote: KeMpori meaning Black in Vai KeMatou meaning completely burnt in Mandjakou KeMbou meaning Charcoal in Pulaar
In linguistics we know there is a relationship if the the CV or VC match along with the meaning in vocabulary. So all throughout Africa you have the same convention to represent Charcoal, Black and Blackening (a process).
CVCV (as can be seen in the Coptic, the last stage of the Egyptian language - kama) in relation to other Bantu languages
quote: Mbochi, i-kama, to blacken Tsonga-Bantu, Khala, a piece charcoal Mongo-Bantu, Wala, place where charcoal is prepared Rikwangali-Bantu, ekara, a piece of charcoal Oshinddonga-Bantu, ekala, charcoal 4 Zulu-Bantu, (li)-lahle, cinder, piece of charcoal, a very dark person. Chichewa-Bantu, khala, piece of charcoal
KaLa means black in Tamil as well and the Black goddess that has been worshipped for at least 5000 years was named Kali.
In addition, in Egyptian as in other languages from on our premises, the letter L corresponds with the letter R. Thus KaLa becomes KaRa among certain people, of the same GaLa becomes GaRa at others[k~g]. Indeed, Garamantes (Mande, GaRa Mountou = Coal Man) true autochtones of the Crete island and Maghreb in Antiquity were Africans (Herodote, Histoire IV 174, 183 to 184).
It is clear that the consonants K & M are separate consonants agglutinated to create one word. If they were not separated consonants, then you would have a LABIAL-VELAR CONSONANT. Labial-Velar consonants are for example
quote: kp - logba gb - ewe nm - vietnamese
It is clear that the Egyptian KM does not fall in line with this convention, nor does it fall in line with the labiovelar or labialized velar or any labialization (characteriked by vowel rounding).
The /k/ represents the word "ka" or "kaa" as can be seen in the Coptic. This is why
Here is the the other name for Ta-Meri in Budge's Dictionary. It is the 5th entry down.
Also in Budges dictionary, you have Km stressed with two M's. Does this mean they are super Black?
There are still people in East Africa who are named "Kauma." What we know today as Egypt was known by Rwandan oral history as "I Kami" and its people as "AbanyaKAMI". As has already been attested in the initial article, in the Bantu languages the term Kami is an agglutinated word and it falls in the convention as expressed in the work of Budge above and the Coptic.
I have already given the philosophical basis for why the Africans associate KM with charcoal and why it ultimately ended up in Egyptian Mdw Ntr as a piece of charcoal (not alligator skin). You will NEVER understand ANY language until you understand the people's cosmology. That is a fact and you will run yourself into these baseless circles trying to avoid the very nature of African languages.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: "Kem" is not the product of two disparate or autonomous "uniliteral" terms turned into a two consonant term; rather, a singular standalone symbol is used to denote "kem" in its *entirety*. In otherwords, the charcoal/crocodile symbol is the singular symbol that has the already-by-nature biliteral "Kem" inbuilt. This is as simple as it'll get, to explain this, as the pictographic and other simple demonstrations were apparently not adequate enough.
Once again, your hypothosis is flawed because 1)there is no indication in ANY Egyptian record that the letter "e" belongs in the middle of the consonants K and M respectively. You are guessing based upon the same term in various other African languages.
False. Not my "guesses", but the determinations of experts. And even if it were my 'guess', it won't turn your immaterial claim into a logical one.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
It is clear that the consonants K & M are separate consonants agglutinated to create one word. If they were not separated consonants, then you would have a LABIAL-VELAR CONSONANT. Labial-Velar consonants are for example
That is not clear; just wishful thinking, which even your own Budge citation shreds to pieces. See "kamKam", denoted by two charcoals, and other instances where the charcoal figure appears alone.
There is no rule in Egyptic that says "k" as a dorsal cannot be proceeded by "m" as a labial.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
Also in Budges dictionary, you have Km stressed with two M's. Does this mean they are super Black?
Nope, but it does mean that the first "silent" m, as denoted by the owl, may well be interpreted as: [of] "black" or [as] "black", which simply put, is the equivalent of stating that the word is quite simply what it is, which in this case, is "black".
Don't know where such a word is attested to in primary Egyptic texts, with regards to the occasion where two owls appear after "km" (charcoal fig.), but it seems that when the usual singular owl is followed by another one, it suggests that the second owl is a *non-silent* uniliteral - and hence "kam.m" as opposed to "kam"+m+m, if we went by your logic. Budge quite clearly shows this to mean "to be black", where "m" is the equivalent of "to be". Whereas a singular silent "m" following "Kam" or "Kem" [charcoal] is an unspoken "implicator": so, [of] "black" - without a determinative - would inform the reader that the term should simply be read as "black", pure and simple. The silent 'of' is the implicator of this. Budge is telling things, but it seems that you're not listening to what he's communicating. In fact, if you carefully look at that instance where we have "kam, kami", you'll see that the charcoal sign reappears in alternative expressions time again without the owl figure, as is the case where it says "Kam.t", below "kamm".
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
That is a fact and you will run yourself into these baseless circles trying to avoid the very nature of African languages.
posted
Many definitions for kmt agree with Dravidian and Malinke-Bambara terms. For example, in Dravidian and Malinke, the suffix –ta/da means “place”.
Malinke
Ta, ‘fire, place,
Ta, ownership
Ta, sacred object’
Dravidian
Kam, house
Itam / etam, place, room
Gibu, house
Kuti, house, abode, home
Cecca, house of leaves
Nakar , house abode
nagaru, house abode
In Dravidian and Malinke-Bambara the term ka, is associated with black(ness) and shelter.
In Malinke-Bambara, we find that charcoal is ‘Kami and Kambi”. This corresponds to Dravidian (Tamil) “Kammi and Kammu’ dark and Tamil “kari” ‘charcoal.
In Malinke we have ‘ga’ or ‘fireplace, hearth, fire and etc’. The term “ka”, land, suffix of possession, hot.
This corresponds to Dravidian “ka” ‘black’, “kay” ‘to grow hot, burn and be warm; shelter protection and to preserve’. We also have Tamil “Car” ‘shelter’ and “Culli” ‘furnace, fireplace’. We also find that the Dravidian and Malinke languages share similar terms for fire ti and ta respectively.
In Dravidian languages such as Tamil, there is an association between blackness and greatness. For example in Tamil, ma denotes both great and blackness. The Indian high god Vishnu was called Mal and Mayavan. In Dravidian and Malinke the term Ma, is often associated with greatness, master and lord for example
Malinke
Mansa , King
Ma, ruler, master, lord,
Ma, original inhabitants of Wets Africa;
Ma, great, good repute and etc.
Dravidian
Ma, great, black
Mal, ‘great man’
Mannan, King, lord
Makinan, chief, lord
Man, earth, world, soil, land
Mal, god Vishnu
Given these means in Malinke we would read the following: [list] Ma-ka-ta ‘Owners of the sacred land(s)’ Ka-ma-ta ‘owners of this sacred place’ Ga-ma-ta, ‘owners of the sacred hearth/habitation’
In Dravidian we could say:
Ka –man-ta ‘The black earth/land’.
Ka-ma--itam ‘The great Black house ’.
Kam-ma-ta ‘The Black house this place’.
It is clear that in Bantu, Egyptian, Dravidian and Mande languages ka- and ga- represented home or an abode. They also recognized kammi, as a term associated with fire, cooking and charcoal; and the term –ta as an element used to denote a geographical area, locality and etc.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
May I ask what is the factual evidence supporting the hypothesis of cognacy of the Swahili, Mbochi, Tsonga, Zulu, Chichewa, Mongo, etc. words for charcoal and related concepts, if that is what the author wants to convey?
Posts: 181 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote: In linguistics, cognates are words that have a common origin. They may occur within a language, such as shirt and skirt as two English words descended from the Proto-Indo-European word *sker-, meaning "to cut". They may also occur across languages, e.g. night and German Nacht as descendants of Proto-Indo-European *nokt-, "night".
quote: Cognates need not have the same meaning: dish (English) and Tisch ("table", German), or starve (English) and sterben ("die", German), or head (English) and chef ("chief, head", French), serve as examples as to how cognate terms may diverge in meaning as languages develop separately, eventually becoming false friends.
In addition to having separate meanings, cognates through processes of linguistic change may no longer resemble each other phonetically: cow and beef both derive from the same Indo-European root *gʷou-, cow having developed through the Germanic language family while beef has arrived in English from the Italo-Romance family descent. (ModE cow < ME cou < OE cū < PIE *gʷou > Latin bos > Latin bovis (genitive) > OFr boef > ME beef)
Cognates may thus also arise through borrowings into languages. So the resemblance between English to pay and French payer originates through English borrowing to pay from Norman which, like French, had derived its word from Gallo-Romance. -
Agluzinha
quote: May I ask what is the factual evidence supporting the hypothesis of cognacy of the Swahili, Mbochi, Tsonga, Zulu, Chichewa words for charcoal and related words, if that is what the author wants to convey?
The facts are in the words themself. A cognate is said to be true if the phonectics are the same, or similar and the meanings are related.
So in the dictionaries of Egyptian, one word for Black is represented by the consonants KM. If we are to show cognacy in other languages, it would have to have the same consonants in the same places. So with the word KM we have either a VCVC relationship or a CVCV. Vowels are considered weak elements when showing relationship because dialect will have people saying the vowels differently, but not the consonants.
So for KM (black) in Egyptian, you have
KaMa meaning Black in Coptic, iKaMa meaning Blackened in Mbochi, KaMi Burnt in Bambara, KeMi Burnt in Mandjakou, KeM Burnt in Wolof, Kim meaning Burnt in Mossi, etc...
in the other languages. Some languages instead of saying the word "black" they say "burnt." When something burns it turns BLACK. Above we have representation from various African language groups so we know the term has cognancy with Egyptian.
The same CVCV phenomenon is shown in other Bantu languages. The Egyptians represented the consonants KM together with a burnt piece of charcoal. Charcoal is NOT a naturally occuring item, out side of lightening strikes on trees, charcoal is made on purpose and to get to the Black color you have to BURN it.
So the same CVCV process is in the other Bantu languages
quote: Mbochi, i-kama, to blacken Tsonga-Bantu, Khala, a piece charcoal Mongo-Bantu, Wala, place where charcoal is prepared Rikwangali-Bantu, ekara, a piece of charcoal Oshinddonga-Bantu, ekala, charcoal Zulu-Bantu, (li)-lahle, cinder, piece of charcoal, a very dark person. Chichewa-Bantu, khala, piece of charcoal
In the other languages it gets more specific and shows the process of blackening through fire (which makes coal in the first place). The cognates don't lie and adds clarity to how it is used. But that still isn't enough in African linguistics, cuz unlike the Indo-European branches of human speech, African languages is intimately tied into cosmology and spirituality. Every ounce of African languages are tied to this. This is why when you read about the Rwandan account for fire and Blacksmithing (why the egyptians had charcoal in the first place, to make metals and to cook).
Gakondo The Oral Literature of Rwanda presented by Rose-Marie Mukarutabana
The Symbolism of Fire in Rwanda Tradition
quote: Our God is a Smith, not a Potter In our Creation Story, Mankind was "birthed" by means of a fire brought from heaven by the Sons of Nkuba. This fire, or divine energy, came to man as the energy of thought, or mental activity, which is indeed "fire": it can now be recorded by modern science and charted out on EEGs (electroencephalographs). This concept of "fire" as the best means of representing divine creative energy is central to our traditional Wisdom Teachings. Hence, God, represented as "Nkuba", or Cosmic Energy, is not a Potter God as in the bible, but a Smith God: He did not create man using earth, water and breath, as we read in the book of Genesis, but He "forged" him -- as He did with the rest of creation -- using metal, fire, air and water to temper the forged form. (However, when taken in their ultimate meaning, the biblical and Rwandan symbolisms amount to the same, for metal is analogous to earth, and while breath is air, divine breath is definitely "fiery".)
A well-known joke shows that Rwandans relate creation to metallurgy. A couple had escaped alone to a foreign land. "But how could you leave your children behind? -- Oh! Never mind that! We'll make some more! Tuzany inyundo ibacura, tuzanye n'uruganda! We've brought the hammer and the workshop (his penis and her womb)." On a more refined note, the sacred Hammer of the Kings of Rwanda (Ingabe-Nyundo), a ritual object said to be of celestial origin, was known as "Inyund icur Abaami", the Hammer which "forges the Kings" out of mere humans, just as these were forged out of the "cave man".
As Ankh Mi Ra has pointed out in his seminal work "Let The Ancestors Speak: Removing the veil of mysticism from Medu Netcher," an introductory book of Egyptian writing and grammar,
quote: A more cryptic example of African symbolism can be discerned in plate # 7. This intricately sculptured ornate vase is more than just a beautiful abstraction. To the trained "Minds Eye" it reveals a not so subtle message which can only be uncovered through meticulous examination. It is fashioned entirely of Medu Netcher "God's Words" which is characteristic of this sacred society. These symbols, "Medu Netcher," cannot be understood without understanding African spirituality and African spirituality cannot be understood without understanding Medu Netcher. Therefore to fully comprehend or appreciate this complex African art form, one must study and learn the specific symbols embodied in its structure. At this point the question that begs an answer is "how can one understand an entire culture if one is baffled by a single vase? "
The reason why most people's interpretation of Mdw Ntr is inadequate is because they are trying to apply European cultural methods of identification on an African script and concepts.
This is why the detrators can't produce in any verifiable "philosophical cognate" in cultures outside Africa. We have a clear match in phonetics, morphology and lexicality. And this PROVES its common origin.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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1)Since Coptic reflexes of Pharaonic km "black" are both CVC and CVCV, what do you make of Indo-European roots like *ker "fire", *ka:l "black,dark", and Indo-European words like kalo "black" (Gypsy), car-bo "charcoal", camino "chimney" (latin), A.Greek kelaino "Black", etc. ?
2)What is your opinion on the following French expressions?
From noir "black":
"être noir de monde" (to be crowded) "il fait noir" "it(sky) is dark" "être noir charbon" (to be of a blue black complexion)
3)What do you think of the fact that Foyer "hearth"(note that cheminée chimney is synonymous with foyer "hearth") can also mean house, family, people, country, etc.
4)And what is your opinion on Gypsies calling themselves Roma Kalo (Black people) ( or Kale (Blacks)), similary to Km.t and RmT n Kmt?
posted
What you have posted is what I've been arguing. That the root represented by the consonants KM is "Ka" or "kaa." It's even in the Egyptian language and means "fire." Also is you look at the last entry below, you'll see another definition of the word for "people" or "mankind."
quote: Budge - Hieroglyphic Dictionary /ch/ or /kh/ which is phonetically consistent with /k/. Remember vowels are passive...
pg 285 M'Kha - fire, flame, to burn up
pg 385 Kha - furnace, fire place, cauldron,
pg 531 Khaam - heat, fire, hot, feaver
Gods pg 526 Khe-t-uat-en- Ra -- A FIRE goddess
Khe-t-em-Amentiu --- the FIRE gods of Amenti
Khe-t-ankh-am- f -- a FIERY serpent goddess
Khe-ti -- FIRE spitting serpent
Other pg. 526 Khe-t -- fire, flame, heat, to burn
pg 572 Khamm - to blaze, to be hot
Kha-t -- heated, excited
Kha-t -- people, mankind (attested to in Ferg Somo's essay on Km.t)
As I have mentioned in all of the previous post, Kaa in ALL African languages means "fire" and it is symbolic for "life" "change" or "creation." As I pointed out in the Rwandan creation philosophy, Fire or hearth is equal to a human being
So this is an attestation of either:
1) It is a proto human language term that has survived unchanged all of these millennia or 2) It is a term adopted from Pharaonic times due to the world wide educational system as attested to by the Egyptians and the Greek historians of old. The term "Khemistry" is one such word (as the Africans were the first to use coal for extraction of metals from orche and is the basis of chemistry)
What also this proves is that the Egyptian language is an agglutinative language and the very root of the term KM.T is KAA.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Incessant arguing for some imagined joining of two words or two disparate unliteral terms in "km", does not change the fact of the matter that 'km' is single *word* denoted by a single glyph, and at basic, is simply the equivalent to "black" in English.
The glyph(s) for "kaa" is not the same as THE glyph for "Kam" or "kem".
does not =
OR...
does not =
Also applies to this, as another potential combination for 'kaa'...
...or whatever other ways you wish to present "kaa" in glyphs.
^Gist: The idea that 'kaa' and 'uma' [as two words] are brought together to produce 'km', or that separate glyphs for "kaa" and 'm' are conjoined to produce "km", is simply a figment of imagination.
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