posted
The Wadi Kubbaniya Skeleton: A Late Paleolithic Burial from Southern Egypt Description and comparison of the skeleton
By J. Lawrence Angel and Jennifer Olsen Kelley
“It is also similar to that of other desert-adapted or even savannah-adapted populations of Upper Paleolithic to modern times in the range from Morrocco and Egypt to the lake country of East Africa.”
“The proper comparisons would be with the hunting and fishing populations between 20,000 and 8,000 B.P., along and between the Nile drainage, from the mountains and forested terrain of Zaire to the savannah lake country. Northwards, toward the Delta (actual Nile Delta sites obviously are very deeply buried) and finally with the chain of North African populations.”
“If we had Upper Paleolithic to early Mesolithic samples from Egypt, Libya and the northern Sahara, we would probably find a smooth transition from the Ishango-Lothagam-Elementeita proto-Nilotics to the Mecha-Afalou proto- Moors and proto-Berbers.”
“The Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton is a link in a chain of hunting and fishing peoples present in Africa, from 20,000 B.P. to 8,000 B.P. They are the direct ancestors of modern Nilotics, Nubians, Egyptians, probably Libyans and Berbers.”
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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What I have been contemplating lately is the possibility of a haplogroup E3* carrying, microlithic and barbed harpoon using culture spreading out from Central Africa (Matupi Cave/Ishango region) during the early LSA. This culture may have spread to the region south of Chad and then disbursed east to the region between the Nile and the Red Sea where it diverged into E3b*. Later this lineage may have spread into the Nile as a refuge during the early LGM where it differentiated further into haplogroup E3b1-M78. Ancestral E3* may have spread into West Africa during the early Holocene, LGM or before where it diverged further into haplogroup E3a* (perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka). The spread east and west of haplogroup E3* prior to the LGM is consistent with the spread of the maternal lineage L2a into east and West Africa during this time. This is of course a hypothesis that we should test.....
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Ancestral E3* may have spread into West Africa during the early Holocene, LGM or before where it diverged further into haplogroup E3a* (perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka). The spread east and west of haplogroup E3* prior to the LGM is consistent with the spread of the maternal lineage L2a into east and West Africa during this time.
Evergreen Posts:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective
Rosa et al.
"The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky."
Evergreen Writes:
This expansion date of 20-30 ky is consistent with the onset of the LGM in Africa, which would have started earlier than in Europe.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
LGM is more of a non tropical/non African reference perspective though.
Perhaps we should think of African history more in terms of the fertile "sahara" vs. the sahara desert - ie African climate history references as opposed to North-Eurasian glacier references?
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quote:“If we had Upper Paleolithic to early Mesolithic samples from Egypt, Libya and the northern Sahara, we would probably find a smooth transition from the Ishango-Lothagam-Elementeita proto-Nilotics to the Mecha-Afalou proto- Moors and proto-Berbers.”
The Ishango Bone – Is This The World’s Oldest Mathematical Artefact?
This artefact was discovered in the small African fishing village of Ishango, on the border of Zaire and Uganda by the Belgian geologist Jean de Heinzelin. At first glance the bone appears to be a *simple writing tool.* It is 10 cm long, and at one end is embedded with a piece of quartz thought to be for engraving and tattooing. Closer examination reveals a series of notches running up the side of the bone, in three columns.
“If we had Upper Paleolithic to early Mesolithic samples from Egypt, Libya and the northern Sahara, we would probably find a smooth transition from the Ishango-Lothagam-Elementeita proto-Nilotics to the Mecha-Afalou proto- Moors and proto-Berbers.”
The notion of Mechta-Afalou proto-Moors and proto-Berbers makes no sense, since the Epipaleolithic and early Holocene specimens so-designated date back to timeframes long before any such group as proto-Tamaizight speakers came about; I'm sure that we are all familiar with the idea that contemporary Tamazight gene pool compose of little Upper Paleolithic extraction, as opposed to derivatives of lineages of paleolithic extraction but with younger expansion ages.
We also know that the so-called "Mechtoids" don't constitute a "type", and so, it will be interesting to examine what is meant by "smooth transition" above.
quote:“The Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton is a link in a chain of hunting and fishing peoples present in Africa, from 20,000 B.P. to 8,000 B.P. They are the direct ancestors of modern Nilotics, Nubians, Egyptians, probably Libyans and Berbers.”
which was determined from....?
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Ancestral E3* may have spread into West Africa during the early Holocene, LGM or before where it diverged further into haplogroup E3a* (perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka).
Why this region for the split, and how do you explain its occurrence in the Nile Valley?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: LGM is more of a non tropical/non African reference perspective though.
Perhaps we should think of African history more in terms of the fertile "sahara" vs. the sahara desert - ie African climate history references as opposed to North-Eurasian glacier references?
Evergreen Writes:
I agree. In fact the impact of this global climate change caused an expansion or contraction of each and every African terrain. For example, the tropical rain forrest and savannah have an inverse relationship with the Sahara and Sahel.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Ancestral E3* may have spread into West Africa during the early Holocene, LGM or before where it diverged further into haplogroup E3a* (perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka).
Why this region for the split, and how do you explain its occurrence in the Nile Valley?
Evergreen Writes:
The basis of my hypothesis that E3a* divereged in West Africa relies on the premise that E3a* has a TMRCA that falls between 20,000 and 30,000 ky - the LGM (until I find a better term Rasol) and that it's frequency and diversity is highest in West Africa. I would correlate the region with Shum Laka because of the spread of the quartz microlithic culture from the Matupi Cave region to Shum Laka region. Of course the savanah would exapnd and contract with global ecological changes. Flora and fauna would retreat and expand as well. Hunter fishers would follow their traditional prey into the sahara as it expanded during the early Holocene. These people would carry E3a* lineages. When the sahara became dry they sought refuge in the Nile as one source.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:“If we had Upper Paleolithic to early Mesolithic samples from Egypt, Libya and the northern Sahara, we would probably find a smooth transition from the Ishango-Lothagam-Elementeita proto-Nilotics to the Mecha-Afalou proto- Moors and proto-Berbers.”
The Ishango Bone – Is This The World’s Oldest Mathematical Artefact?
This artefact was discovered in the small African fishing village of Ishango, on the border of Zaire and Uganda by the Belgian geologist Jean de Heinzelin. At first glance the bone appears to be a *simple writing tool.* It is 10 cm long, and at one end is embedded with a piece of quartz thought to be for engraving and tattooing. Closer examination reveals a series of notches running up the side of the bone, in three columns.
Good post. The mathematical logic behind the Ishango Bone may have supported systemic fishing practices that have deep time depth in the southern Rift Valley/Great Lakes region. In fact evidence for delayed return consumption of fish have been noted Wadi Kubbainya. This tradition at Wadi Kubbaniya may be a late modification of African cultural and technological practices that emerged prior to the LSA. Delayed return consumption served as a behavioral adaptation that later supported the cultural shift to agriculture. Hence fisher cultivators later became cultivators of flora and fauna.
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posted
^ Interesting stuff, guys. I want to know what archaeological/anthropological studies are presently going on in the Sahara? Any new findings from that area?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ancestral E3* may have spread into West Africa during the early Holocene, LGM or before where it diverged further into haplogroup E3a* (perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka).
Why this region for the split, and how do you explain its occurrence in the Nile Valley?
Evergreen Writes:
The basis of my hypothesis that E3a* divereged in West Africa relies on the premise that E3a* has a TMRCA that falls between 20,000 and 30,000 ky - the LGM (until I find a better term Rasol) and that it's frequency and diversity is highest in West Africa.
It has the highest diversity in the contemporary populations situated in West Africa; that doesn't mean though, that this is where the divergence of E3a from its predecessor occurred. That simplistic interpretation assumes populations are static entities.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
I would correlate the region with Shum Laka because of the spread of the quartz microlithic culture from the Matupi Cave region to Shum Laka region. Of course the savanah would exapnd and contract with global ecological changes. Flora and fauna would retreat and expand as well.
So, I assume this to mean, either that "quartz microlith culture" was found in other parts of West Africa were quartz do not occur, and/or that something tells us that the said microlithic culture started in one designated point initially and then spread temporally and spatially in a certain direction? Also, how does this in any way directly tell us anything about E3a or its spilt?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
Hunter fishers would follow their traditional prey into the sahara as it expanded during the early Holocene. These people would carry E3a* lineages. When the sahara became dry they sought refuge in the Nile as one source.
What would prompt such a move, so as to move into the Sahara, away from the habitat that they were surviving so well under?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]It has the highest diversity in the contemporary populations situated in West Africa; that doesn't mean though, that this is where the divergence of E3a from its predecessor occurred. That simplistic interpretation assumes populations are static entities.
Evergreen Writes:
The mainstream principle utilized for modeling the geographic and population locale of specific haplogroups is least moves and greatest diversity. If we divided Africa in half, haplogroup E3a* would derive in West Africa based upon this principle. Do you reject the principle of the correlation between the principle and the data analysis? If you reject the principle why and what is the alternative explanatory model you use? If you accept the principle but reject the correlation between the principle and the data analysis why?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]What would prompt such a move, so as to move into the Sahara, away from the habitat that they were surviving so well under?
Evergreen Writes:
Likely -
1. Habitat shift. 2. Population growth. 3. Resource constraints. 4. Opportunity.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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[QUOTE]It has the highest diversity in the contemporary populations situated in West Africa; that doesn't mean though, that this is where the divergence of E3a from its predecessor occurred. That simplistic interpretation assumes populations are static entities.
Evergreen Writes:
The mainstream principle utilized for modeling the geographic and population locale of specific haplogroups is least moves and greatest diversity. If we divided Africa in half, haplogroup E3a* would derive in West Africa based upon this principle.
Having the greatest haplogroup diversity in a designated population(s), simply raises a possibility that a lineage may have originated in the population(s) in question, *when taken into consideration with other determinants; this characteristic itself *alone* is not even enough to suggest that a lineage originated in a designated group. What it doesn't tell us, is **where** the lineage itself came about, without additional information. Just because some population now lives in some designated region, and happens to predominantly have some designated lineage, doesn't mean that the said habitat is where the lineage arose - populations are not static entities.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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What specific reasons and/or series of events prompted such a move, so as to move into the Sahara, away from the habitat that they were surviving so well under? Include scientific citations for examination, if necessary.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]Having the greatest haplogroup diversity in a designated population(s), simply raises a possibility that a lineage may have originated in the population(s) in question, *when taken into consideration with other determinants; this characteristic itself *alone* is not even enough to suggest that a lineage originated in a designated group. What it doesn't tell us, is **where** the lineage itself came about, without additional information. Just because some population now lives in some designated region, and happens to predominantly have some designated lineage, doesn't mean that the said habitat is where the lineage arose - populations are not static entities.
Evergreen Writes:
I stated greatest diversity AND least moves. Not simply greatest diversity. So, please address my previous inquiry:
Do you reject the principle of the correlation between the principle and the data analysis? If you reject the principle why and what is the alternative explanatory model you use? If you accept the principle but reject the correlation between the principle and the data analysis why?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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I stated greatest diversity AND least moves. Not simply greatest diversity.
What do you mean by "least moves", if it doesn't in any way go back to the point I just made, about populations not being static?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
So, please address my previous inquiry:
Do you reject the principle of the correlation between the principle and the data analysis? If you reject the principle why and what is the alternative explanatory model you use? If you accept the principle but reject the correlation between the principle and the data analysis why?
Lol. You make it sound like the burden of proof and explanation somehow lies with me, when in fact it lies with you.
To topple this, it seems that you must have missed the point of my post you cited, as it makes it quite clear that 'diversity of a lineage' in population is not enough to suggest that the said population is the progenitor population of that lineage.
You have also yet to explain why you chose the location you proposed for the split of E3a from E3.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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And what does this tell us about the whereabouts of the split of E3a and its spread thereof?
It tells us the spread of E3 bearing Africans throughout North Africa is likely associated with the wet sahara, and the split into different sub-sets is likely associated with the drying of the sahara.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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And what does this tell us about the whereabouts of the split of E3a and its spread thereof?
It tells us the spread of E3 bearing Africans throughout North Africa is likely associated with the wet sahara, and the split into different sub-sets is likely associated with the drying of the sahara.
Sure E3 bearers must have been dwelling in the "wet Sahara"; there is no doubt about that. In fact, it can be argued that this was probably one of the most densely populated parts of the continent during that period. At any rate, when you refer to "different subsets", what subsets did you have in mind? I mean, we know that both E3a and E3b split sometime before this wet phase of the Sahara, much less its drying up thereafter, don't we? - unless...?
...but back to my question:
And what does this tell us about the whereabouts of the split of E3a and its spread thereof?
^has not really been addressed. Of note, it's necessary to keep in mind, that my feedbacks and inquiries here are very much related to the specifics of this question. So, when I ask:
What specific reasons and/or series of events prompted such a move, so as to move into the Sahara, away from the habitat that they were surviving so well under? Include scientific citations for examination, if necessary.
...those specifics are what this question, and others like it herein, are formulated around.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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During the Ogolian hyper-arid phase (20,000 to 12,000BP) Africa North of the equator had three primary refugia :
1. The NW African littoral – So-Called Iberomaurusian 2. Nile Valley refugia – Wadi Kubbaniya, etc. 3. Savanna-Forest Zone – Shum Laka, Mbi Crater, etc.
The present Sahara/Sahel was essentially unoccupied. Later early Holocene West African proto-agricultural traditions (such as the proto-Yam cultivators of the Kintampo Complex)seem to have derived from the Quartz Microlithic cultures of the Savanna-Forest Zone. All three zones indicate derivation from the microlithic cultures of pre-LSA Matupi Cave region.
1. West Africa has the greatest diversity of E3a* 2. West Africa has the highest frequency of E3a* 3. West Africa presents a logical least moves scenario for an Ogolian Phase derivation of E3a* from ancestral E3* in the Savanna-Forest Zone and E3b* in the Upper Nile/Horn of Africa region. 4. E3a* and E3b* TMRCA are both indicative of a pre-Ogolian Phase time-depth. This would imply that E3a* derived in West Africa before the onset of the arid phase and was seperated from pre-E3b* populations with the onset of the arid phase.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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And what does this tell us about the whereabouts of the split of E3a and its spread thereof?
quote:rasol: It tells us the spread of E3 bearing Africans throughout North Africa is likely associated with the wet sahara, and the split into different sub-sets is likely associated with the drying of the sahara.
quote:Sure E3 bearers must have been dwelling in the "wet Sahara";
^ Which answers your question. Whether you choose to acknowledge that, or not.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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And what does this tell us about the whereabouts of the split of E3a and its spread thereof?
quote:rasol: It tells us the spread of E3 bearing Africans throughout North Africa is likely associated with the wet sahara, and the split into different sub-sets is likely associated with the drying of the sahara.
quote:Sure E3 bearers must have been dwelling in the "wet Sahara";
^ Which answers your question. Whether you choose to acknowledge that, or not.
As a matter of fact, I do intend to choose to *not* acknowledge something that doesn't exist, whether you choose to welcome that or not. Tell me, how simply saying that E3 bearers lived in the "wet Sahara" tells us anything specific about the whereabouts of E3a [I hope you can tell the difference between E3 and E3a] split and how it expanded thereof spatially and temporally.
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During the Ogolian hyper-arid phase (20,000 to 12,000BP) Africa North of the equator had three primary refugia :
1. The NW African littoral – So-Called Iberomaurusian 2. Nile Valley refugia – Wadi Kubbaniya, etc. 3. Savanna-Forest Zone – Shum Laka, Mbi Crater, etc.
The present Sahara/Sahel was essentially unoccupied.
What about regions now below the Sahara in West Africa; does this hold true?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
Later early Holocene West African proto-agricultural traditions (such as the proto-Yam cultivators of the Kintampo Complex) seem to have derived from the Quartz Microlithic cultures of the Savanna-Forest Zone. All three zones indicate derivation from the microlithic cultures of pre-LSA Matupi Cave region.
When in the early Holocene did these traditions appear? Also goes back to the nature of these "quartz cultures"; are there indicators that these could not have developed independently in different regions, and that it unequivocally has to be due to demic diffusion from a single source? Above all, what does this have to do with where the E3a supposedly split?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
1. West Africa has the greatest diversity of E3a* 2. West Africa has the highest frequency of E3a* 3. West Africa presents a logical least moves scenario for an Ogolian Phase derivation of E3a*
Yes, West Africa has the highest diversity and frequency of E3a; but this is based on testing of contemporary populations in the region. What evidence do you have though, to suggest that E3a split here? "Least moves" doesn't constitute evidence - the fact that E3a is found outside of West Africa should make this evident.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
from ancestral E3* in the Savanna-Forest Zone and E3b* in the Upper Nile/Horn of Africa region.
You said that you believe that E3a split here:
perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka - by Evergreen
Did you rethink this, or are you prepared to elaborate on why you think this, as I had inquired [with specific requests] earlier?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
4. E3a* and E3b* TMRCA are both indicative of a pre-Ogolian Phase time-depth.
How do you reconcile this with this:
West Africa presents a logical least moves scenario for an Ogolian Phase derivation of E3a* - Evergreen
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
This would imply that E3a* derived in West Africa before the onset of the arid phase and was seperated from pre-E3b* populations with the onset of the arid phase.
23,000 BP ~ 21,050 BC: "After a favourable climatic period, characterised by relatively dense and diversified Palaeolithic occupations, the arid Ogolian begins locally around 23000 years BP and is represented at **Ounjougou** by a significant depositional and archaeological hiatus." [see: Aziz Ballouche]
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]What about regions now below the Sahara in West Africa; does this hold true?
Evergreen Writes:
This was the Savanna-Forest Zone – Shum Laka, Mbi Crater, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE].....what does this have to with where the E3a supposedly split?
Evergreen Writes:
Archaeologists and geneticists typically associate artifacts, geology, etc, to better correlate population expansions.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]Yes, West Africa has the highest diversity and frequency of E3a; but this is based on testing of contemporary populations in the region. What evidence do you have though, to suggest that E3a spilt here? "Least moves" doesn't constitute evidence - the fact that E3a is found outside of West Africa should make this event.
Evergreen Writes:
We’re going in circles. Yes, E3a is found outside of WA, but with lower diversity and frequency.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]
You said that you believe that E3a spilt here:
perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka - by Evergreen
Did you rethink this, or are you prepared to elaborate on why you think this, as I had inquired [with specific requests] earlier?
Evergreen Writes:
I have already answered this question. E3a* would have derived in this region because humans lived in only three regions north of the equator at this time. Please reread my last post to understand where those three regions are.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]I highly doubt any published source places E3a to more that ~23ky ago.
Evergreen Posts:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Rosa et al.
BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007, 7:124
“The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub- Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity.”
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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What about regions now below the Sahara in West Africa; does this hold true?
Evergreen Writes:
This was the Savanna-Forest Zone – Shum Laka, Mbi Crater, etc.
I'm obviously not referring to regions that far south. I asking you if what you said, held true for those regions of sub-Saharan west Africa sans Cameroon - like say, from the Niger River Valley to the Atlantic coast regions.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
.....what does this have to with where the E3a supposedly split?
Evergreen Writes:
Archaeologists and geneticists typically associate artifacts, geology, etc, to better correlate population expansions.
But you haven't explained why you proclaim that this tradition can only be a product of demic diffusion from a singular source, not to mention cherry-picking which parts of the questions you'd feel comfortable addressing and which ones you'd like to dodge - e.g.:
When in the early Holocene did these traditions appear? Also goes back to the nature of these "quartz cultures"; are there indicators that these could not have developed independently in different regions, and that it unequivocally has to be due to demic diffusion from a single source? Above all, what does this have to do with where the E3a supposedly split?
What happened to your capacity to answer the highlighted ones, and hence, rendering my repetition of them?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
Yes, West Africa has the highest diversity and frequency of E3a; but this is based on testing of contemporary populations in the region. What evidence do you have though, to suggest that E3a spilt here? "Least moves" doesn't constitute evidence - the fact that E3a is found outside of West Africa should make this event
Evergreen Writes:
We’re going in circles.
...because:
1) you repeat things that have been pointed out to either be inadequate to draw the desired conclusion you're seeking, and/or
2)you dodge questions that seek clarification of your assertions.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
Yes, E3a is found outside of WA, but with lower diversity and frequency.
That is false. It is observed in high frequencies in sub-Saharan East Africa, Central Africa and South Africa. Small frequencies appear in coastal North Africa and the African Horn. This is case in point that you can't simply draw conclusion on the possible location of the split of a lineage by treating a designated population as being static...at least, not without much more elaborate support, from across multidisciplines as much as necessary.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
You said that you believe that E3a spilt here:
perhaps in the region of Mbi Crater and Shum Laka - by Evergreen
Did you rethink this, or are you prepared to elaborate on why you think this, as I had inquired [with specific requests] earlier?[/qb]
Evergreen Writes:
I have already answered this question.
Where? You do realize I'm talking about your earlier nitpicking Mbi Crater and Sham Laka as specific regions, and the fact that you've now taken the approach of 'generalized' speak - right?
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
E3a* would have derived in this region because humans lived in only three regions north of the equator at this time. Please reread my last post to understand where those three regions are.
Firstly, you contradict yourself, because you picked the *specified* possible locations for the emergence of TMRCA, and when pressed with questions, you began to use *generalized* speak - talking of "West Africa".
Well, West Africa is a broad region which has diverse populations, and the distribution and frequency patterns of E3a in this region isn't quite same for all the populations therein. This doesn't tell us in which descendant population TMRCA emerged, when and where. Please, also read my response to you, about the conditions in sub-Saharan west Africa, sans the region where the central-Southern portions of Cameroon now lie; whether populations were living there during the Ogolian aridity.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
I highly doubt any published source places E3a to more than ~23ky ago.
Evergreen Posts:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Rosa et al.
BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007, 7:124
“The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub- Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity.”
Thanks for bringing this publication to my attention. But why does this timeframe speak of such a large margin of error for the confidence in attaining the age of the lineage? Semino et al. [2004] for instance, places the TMRCA of E3a to 18.8 +/- 2.4 - not only has a narrower margin of error, but from the looks of things, Semino et al. had factored a paraphyletic group of undifferentiated E3a chromosomes into their age estimation; this undoubtedly would have narrowed down any margin of error in age estimation. Their estimation for E3a and E3b also correlates well with those of Cruciani et al. and Luis et al.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Look, I'll just cut to the chase: I see aspects of your [Evergreen's] migration thesis that are reasonable, but the explanations behind them fall flat imo in those areas questioned.
Here is what I think occurred, based on the information available to me:
Between 23 and 18ky ago - Ogolian period begins, which coincides with and is likely connected to the LGM weather situation.
23,000 BP ~ 21,050 BC: "After a favourable climatic period, characterised by relatively dense and diversified Palaeolithic occupations, the arid Ogolian begins locally around 23000 years BP and is represented at Ounjougou by a significant depositional and archaeological hiatus." [see: Aziz Ballouche]
- Much of North Africa and the Sahara are characterized by adverse weather conditions, with much of the region turning arid. The Sahara at this time, extends south beyond its current boundaries to a certain point, possibly a little beyond the Niger bend.
Arid conditions extend all the way to the "horn" coast of the African Horn region, possibly encouraging populations to reside more inwards - away from that horn-shaped coastal region; rather, likely towards the region straddling southern Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda or even further - region straddling Uganda, Kenya, and Tanzania.
- PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a* [as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period. At this time, it was likely the M78 derivative that came about ~ between 19 and 15 ky ago. It was also likely during this period, that some E3b-M35 variants spilled over to the "southwest Asia", which would be identified as E-M34. The E-M78* likely arose somewhere in the bidirectional-migration route between Northeast and sub-Saharan East Africa; this location was likely in the region straddling upper Egypt and Sudan of the eastern Sahara, amongst earlier E-M35 migrants from sub-Saharan East Africa. These M78 bearers were increasingly pressured to move further south due to progressive aridity, possibly as far as Uganda-Kenya and/or Tanzanian general region.
- The E3a bearing group would proceed westward, perhaps meeting groups of earlier lineages at the Shum Laka region of Cameroon, whereby quartz micro-lithic culture had already been in place by around 30 ky ago, hence preceding the rise of E3a common recent ancestor. But this group wouldn’t stay put here, at least not every section of it; they’d proceed to the savanna, grassland or vegetation holdouts in West Africa beyond the then boundaries of the Sahara. This probably occurred some time between 15ky and 13ky ago. During this period, as the Saharan aridity began to gradually slacken, some E-M78 bearing proto-Afrasan speaking nomads likely made their way into the Levant via the Sinai corridor.
Others taking refuge in the Cameroonian savanna-tropical forest general region probably followed suit, that is - after the aforementioned initial batch of migrants [bearing E3a descendants]; or else, the same group of people [from the initial migrants] shifted locations along the west African vegetation belts, once it became apparent that the far western reaches didn’t have much to offer, but the water system [as part of the Niger River] - however relatively shallow or what not - offered something additional. Finally, when the conditions in the Sahara were turning around for the better, starting between ~ 12ky and 11ky ago, these migrants would proceed northward, leaving the sort of trails that find expression at Ounjougou - Mali.
10th millennium BC ~ 12ky ago: At Ounjougou - "It is not until the Holocene and the return of humid climatic conditions, beginning in the 10th millennium BC, that it is possible to again observe evidence of human occupation."[see: Aziz Ballouche]
"Consequently, it has to be seen in the context of heavy rainfalls and a resettlement of the vegetation cover, during the 10th millennium BC, that a new population arrives on the Plateau of Bandiagara."[see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
And...
From 30,600 to 10,000 BC: "A cultural flow, from the southeast of Subsaharan Africa and to the Sahara, could explain the diffusion of the microlithic industries all the way through West Africa. We observe them initially in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30.600-29.000 BC), then at the Ivory Coast in Bingerville (14.100-13.400 BC), in Nigeria in Iwo Eleru (11.460-11.050 BC), and finally in Ounjougou (phase 1, 10th millennium BC)."[see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
Its very probable that this E3a bearing group(s) came into contact with the then wandering earlier-inhabitants of west Africa, who would have been pressured to move southward beyond the then Saharan desert boundaries, due to progressing aridity of the Ogolian period. These groups could have brought their central-Saharan pottery [e.g. found in Niger] traditions with them [developed perhaps sometime during the transitioning period to the wetter phase of the Sahara], just as the E3a bearing group(s) brought the microlithic traditions that they possibly picked up in the vicinity of the Shum Laka region [see above excerpt carbon dating estimations of finds] …and/or else…the new migrants produced their own versions of pottery in their new found location [as it is not noted whether these pottery had affinities with examples found in the aforementioned central Saharan region], at a time when it was trendy to carry stuff in pottery ware in the Saharan-Sahelian zone, with the filling up river systems due to the Monsoon rains.
The 10,000 and 9,000 BC (Phase 1 of the Holocene in Ounjougou): "The first sedimentary sequence of the Holocene can be observed at the Ravin de la Mouche. It's a channel dug into yellow Pleistocene silt and filled with coarse grained sand and pebbles. As a chronological reference for the upper levels of this early Holocene site, we hold ten radiocarbon dates between 9400 and 8400 BC cal. The associated lithic industry evidences predominantly a unidirectional mode of debitage. But also other technologies, such as bipolar on anvil or multidirectional, have been applied by the Early Holocene population. The raw material mainly used was quartz. The typological range consists of small retouched flakes, geometric microliths and perçoirs, but also of continuously retouched bifacial arrowheads and backed points."[see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
"By" 11,000 years BP ~ by 9050 BC:
"The age of the sediment in which they were found suggests that the six ceramic fragments discovered between 2002 and 2005 are at least 11,400 years old. Most ancient ceramics from the Middle East and the central and eastern Sahara regions are 10,000 and between 9-10,000 years old, respectively." [see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
By the 'beginning' of 8,000 BC: "Outstandingly, there has been evidence of the presence of pottery and seed grinding implements since at least the beginning of the 8th millennium BC. It is therefore the oldest site. The eighth millennium (Phase 2 of the Holocene in Ounjougou) known of this socio-economic type in sub-Saharan Africa...
The pottery and the seed grinding implements of phase 2 of Ounjougou are the oldest artefacts of this type known at present in sub-Saharan Africa. To current knowledge, the pottery of Ounjougou could either have been invented in the actual Sudano-Sahelian zone or been imported from the Central Sahara, where there has been evidence since the ninth millennium BC. Still, the oldest pottery known in the Sahara, from the site of Tagalagal in Niger, is already quite diversified at the moment of its appearance, possibly meaning that the technique has been introduced.
The lithic industry of the phases 1 and 2 on the other hand shows similarities to both more southern and Saharan industries. Quartz microliths, obtained through bipolar debitage on anvil, are a characteristic of the West African techno-complex according to Kevin MacDonald. Bifacially retouched arrowheads, in contrast, are specific for Saharan production." [see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
"The eighth millennium (Phase 2 of the Holocene in Ounjougou): The subsequent Holocene sequence is well documented by two principal sites, the Ravin du Hibou and Damatoumou. The archaeological levels can be quite clearly chronologically placed by means of a date obtained through OSL measurements (9420±410 Ka) and seven radiocarbon dates (between 8000 and 7000 BC cal). The lithic industry, exclusively quartz, is characterised by unidirectional, bidirectional and peripheral debitage, as well as by bipolar on anvil. There are essentially microlithic tools: perçoirs, backed points, notched pieces, denticulates, scrapers, retouched flakes and geometric microliths. Some small bifacially retouched arrowheads were also found on those sites. At the Ravin du Hibou, seven sherds have been found during excavation. They are heavily fragmented and thus preventing the reconstruction of the form of the vessels. Quartz has always been used as a temper. In just a single case, grog has been used in addition. Two shards show identifiable decorations. Two different techniques have been used: A rolled impression, possibly made with a peigne fileté souple or with a cordelette, and a simple comb impression. There were also seed grinding implements discovered at the Ravin du Hibou, a fragment of a seed grinding stone and a cylindrical upper grinding stone." [see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
If we look at the samplings undertaken thus far, the west African populations on Atlantic-bordering west coasts - like the Senegalese samples, these groups undoubtedly have amongst the highest frequencies of E3a lineages, but there is something to be discerned: These groups largely carry M2, P1, and M180 lineages devoid of the M191 mutation, perhaps indicating the earlier E3a bearers, while many of the Bantu speaking groups of central, east and southern Africa carry those 191 derivatives:
Although haplotypes 22, 24, and 41 were probably all involved in the Bantu expansion, the processes that determined the current distribution of these haplotypes in the Sudanese belt (a region south of the Sahara extending from western to central Africa) seem to have been more complex and perhaps involved a separate expansion. In particular, haplotype 24 and its derivative, haplotype 22, harbor opposite clinal distributions in the region, a finding that is at odds with the hypothesis of a parallel dispersion of these two lineages in the area.
Haplotype 22 has a frequency of 23% in Cameroon (where it represents 42% of haplotypes carrying the DYS271 mutation), 13% in Burkina Faso (16% of haplotypes carrying the DYS271 mutation) and only 1% in Senegal (Semino et al. 2002), whereas haplotype 24 reaches its highest frequency (81%) in Senegal (Semino et al. 2002).
A possible explanation might be that haplotype 24 chromosomes were already present across the Sudanese belt when the M191 mutation, which defines haplotype 22, arose in central western Africa. Only then would a later demic expansion have brought haplotype 22 chromosomes from central western to western Africa, giving rise to the opposite clinal distributions of haplotypes 22 and 24. - Cruciani et al. 2002
^This suggests that the oldest E3a bearing population(s) ultimately moved to the far west corner of the continent.
From Semino et al. 2004, we have:
It is also of interest, that the Senegalese samples have higher E3* frequency, which attains its highest frequency in Ethiopian populations, than the Bantu speaking groups, where the only group tested positive, was that of the South African Bantu sample:
Bantu (South Africa) - E3* = 1.9%, Senegalese - E3* = 2.9%, Ethiopian (Amhara) - E3* = 10.4%, Ethiopian (Oromo) - E3* = 12.8% in the ascending order.
The Senegalese sample also bears the E-M.35* lineages:
Bantu (South Africa) = 15.1%, Burkina Faso = 11.3%, Khoisan (South Africa) = 4.6%, Sudan = 5%, North Cameroon = 3.3%, Senegalese = 2.9%, Ethiopian (Oromo) = 1.3%
Looking at this data, among predominantly E3a-bearing Niger-Congo language speakers, Senegalese groups have the highest E3* frequency, as well as E-M35*. It follows the North Cameroon sample in this instance, in the E-M78 frequencies - though I’m not sure if those North Cameroon samples comprise of Niger-Congo speaking groups, Nilo-Saharan or some other language phylum group. In west Africa, it succeeds only Mali [and Niger, which wasn‘t included in this sample]- as one of the areas which have considerable Niger-Congo speakers - to have E-M81 bearing candidates, but then, Mali is also well known for its Saharan Tamazight speakers.
^Some might look at a lineage as, say E-M78 and imagine it to be a trace of interaction with Saharan or coastal North African Afrasan speaking groups, but micro satellite inspection would to indicate otherwise:
It is interesting that both E-P2* and E-M35* and their derivatives, E-M78 and E-M123, exhibit in Ethiopians the 12-repeat allele at the DYS392 microsatellite locus, an allele scarcely seen (Y-Chromosome STR Database), especially in other haplogroups and other populations (A.S.S.-B., unpublished data). In addition, the Ethiopian DYS392-12 allele is usually associated with the unusually short DYS19-11 allele, which is typical of this area. These findings are not easily explained. One possible scenario is that an ancient differentiation of the E-P2 haplogroup occurred in loco (East Africa). However, this also implies a low mutability of the associated microsatellite motif (DYS392-12/DYS19-11). Alternatively, the microsatellite motif may be due to homoplasy.
The first scenario is more likely, since this unique microsatellite haplotype occurs in E-P2*, E-M35*, and E-M78 but is almost absent in all other haplogroups and populations. In addition, the high stability of the DYS392 locus (Brinkmann et al. 1998; Nebel et al. 2001) and of the shorter alleles of DYS19 (Carvalho-Silva et al. 1999) has been reported elsewhere. Moreover, the observation that the derivative E-M78 displays the DYS392-12/DYS19-11 haplotype suggests that it also arose in East Africa. This is illustrated by the microsatellite network (fig. 3, shaded area), which reveals that the Ethiopian branch harboring DYS392-12 is not shared with either Near Eastern or European populations.
The Ethiopian sample may not share the said allele with those populations mentioned, including the northwest African samples as far as I can tell, but it does share the said allele with the Senegalese sample, which would suggest that the Senegalese M78 derivative didn’t come from interaction with its northwest African neighbors; rather, they may well be relics of ancient migrations from east to west.
Source: Semino et al., Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y‐Chromosome Haplogroups E and J, 2004.
Some time during post 11ky ago expansions into the wet Sahara, before its return to aridity, with activity going on across the Saharan expanse, like cattle domestication for example, E3a bearers spread well into central-east Sahara. It was likely during this period that HbS mutations were localized, with the oldest E3a bearing groups nearer to the Atlantic-hugging west coasts bearing the Senegalese haplotype, while the Benin haplotype was able to have a more far-reaching expansion northward and northeast ward, due its situation in Niger River Valley vis-à-vis North Africa and the rest of the Sahara.
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Do we find any ancestral E1b1a-M2 chromosomes near Sudan-Central African Republic or Uganda-Kenya border regions?
I'm aware that proto-E1b1a is East African.
East to North West migration and influence is what is certain, exactly where E1b1a diverged isn't as certain.
It would seem that E1b1a was East Central African in origin though since Eastern African ancestral E-P2 (PN2) lineages in Western Africa are mainly concentrated in areas close to the Sahara like Senegal.
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective
Rosa et al. 2007
the Niger-Mali-Burkina Faso region seems to have been a significant source of radiation for the said lineage.
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Do we find any ancestral E1b1a-M2 chromosomes near Sudan-Central African Republic or Uganda-Kenya border regions?
Well, E1b1a chromosomes were identified in "Northern" Egyptian samples by Luis et al. Few other studies invoke the clade in northeast Africa. However, if Lucotte & Mercier's RFLP haplotype IV corresponds to E1b1a chromosomes, then it would be another invocation of E1b1 in the Lower Nile Valley area; not sure if Lucotte & Mercier's "Lower Nubia" corresponds to Sudanese territory, but they did have a separate sample designated as "Upper Egypt", which too have noticeable frequencies of haplotype IV. One would think that if E1b1a chromosomes have been found in northern Egyptian samples, then it wouldn't be far-fetched to come across them further up the Nile in Egypt and Sudan. Anyway, I built up a comprehensive case about the link between haplotype IV and E1b1a chromosomes both on this board, and more recently, on blog: Lucotte et al.'s haplotype IV
An interesting case, is Arredi et al.'s finding of 3 E3a* chromosomes in an Ethiopian sample of 88 candidates. Don't know if these undifferentiated E3a chromosomes has more to do with the resolution level of said authors' sequencing methodology, but it does appear that they reasonably tested extensively for the E3a phylogeny, reporting results for E3a6, E3a5, E3a4, E3a3, E3a2, and E3a1 respectively. It is not surprising to see Malian, Central African, Khoisan and South African [Bantu presumably] samples show much greater frequencies for E3a* though, with the Central African one outnumbering the others.
One shouldn't necessarily expect any considerable detections E1b1a* (E3a*) chromosomes in northeast Africa and in areas like Ethiopia, because E3a emergence seems to be have been what one could describe as a founder-effect; meaning, that it need not have emerged in the locations where E3a is now dominant, but was likely carried in very modest frequencies amongst ancestral E3*-bearing migrants into west Africa, where the lineage would eventually peak due to sudden rapid demographic expansions in the region.
quote: exactly where E1b1a diverged isn't as certain.
I've already extrapolated above, the geographical sphere where E1b1a likely diverged, on the far eastern vestiges of central Africa. Also read the immediate above.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: This artefact was discovered in the small African fishing village of Ishango, on the border of Zaire and Uganda by the Belgian geologist Jean de Heinzelin. At first glance the bone appears to be a *simple writing tool.* It is 10 cm long, and at one end is embedded with a piece of quartz thought to be for engraving and tattooing. Closer examination reveals a series of notches running up the side of the bone, in three columns.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I've already extrapolated above, the geographical sphere where E1b1a likely diverged, on the far eastern vestiges of central Africa. Also read the immediate above.
^Thanks explorer, I wasn't aware of E-M2 in Ethiopia or that Luis et al found it in lower Egypt, though it fits with Lucotte and Mercier's findings that there should be a North Eastward gradient radiating from West Africa, especially considering the timeframes that I now see it could have got their and dominated (I also don't recall prior having read your analysis of Lucotte in your blog).
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posted
So yez wanna pick a bone, eh? Howzabout dis.
quote:The oldest fossils of modern man are nearly 150,000 years old. Probably on a rainy day, a human walked in wet sand near what is now known as Border Cave in the Lebombo Mountains between South Africa and Swaziland. In the 1970's during the excavations of Border Cave, a small piece of the fibula of a baboon, the Lebombo bone, was found marked with 29 clearly defined notches, and, at 37,000 years old, it ranks with the oldest mathematical objects known. The bone is dated approximately 35,000 BC and resembles the calendar sticks still in use by Bushmen clans in Nimibia.
The closest town to the Lebombo Mountains is Siteki, renowned for its Inyanga and Sangoma School, a government school to train healers and diviners. It's a fascinating mix of botany, spiritualism and natural science, and you can visit the school if you arrange it in advance through Swazi Tourism in Mbabane.
I've already extrapolated above, the geographical sphere where E1b1a likely diverged, on the far eastern vestiges of central Africa. Also read the immediate above.
^Thanks explorer, I wasn't aware of E-M2 in Ethiopia or that Luis et al found it in lower Egypt, though it fits with Lucotte and Mercier's findings that there should be a North Eastward gradient radiating from West Africa, especially considering the timeframes that I now see it could have got their and dominated (I also don't recall prior having read your analysis of Lucotte in your blog).
quote:The oldest fossils of modern man are nearly 150,000 years old. Probably on a rainy day, a human walked in wet sand near what is now known as Border Cave in the Lebombo Mountains between South Africa and Swaziland. In the 1970's during the excavations of Border Cave, a small piece of the fibula of a baboon, the Lebombo bone, was found marked with 29 clearly defined notches, and, at 37,000 years old, it ranks with the oldest mathematical objects known. The bone is dated approximately 35,000 BC and resembles the calendar sticks still in use by Bushmen clans in Nimibia.
The closest town to the Lebombo Mountains is Siteki, renowned for its Inyanga and Sangoma School, a government school to train healers and diviners. It's a fascinating mix of botany, spiritualism and natural science, and you can visit the school if you arrange it in advance through Swazi Tourism in Mbabane.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Or as Shaun calls it "selective pressures"! LOL
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