Don't miss The Black Pharaohs documentary on the ABC at 9.30pm.
Dr Vivian Davies claims that a recently discovered set of hieroglyphs proves that, in 800 BC, Egypt was under the rule of black Pharaohs from neighbouring Nubia.
This film examines the impact of these sensational discoveries. "Listen to me you who are upon earth...For I warn of the coming of Kush."
This inscription details an Egyptian tomb owner's role in saving Egypt from death and destruction in a war fought with the Kingdom of Kush (modern-day Sudan) in 1600 BC.
Historians have long known about Kush, but relegated its importance to a vassal state of Egypt, significant only for its gold reserves. Early excavations in the Kush capital at Kerma suffered from the innate racism of the archaeologists.
Fabulous grave goods, discovered in the 20th century, were thought to have belonged to Kush's Egyptian overlords. They didn't consider that a black African culture could have challenged Egypt's supremacy.
The inscription exposed the truth. Although it won battles, Kush eventually lost the war, and for the next 1000 years, Egypt had the upper hand. But the inscription served as a warning prophecy to Egypt that it might pay a high price.
The enslaved Kushites would have their revenge. Allowed, and even encouraged, to rebuild their own kingdom along the lines of Egypt, in 747 BC, Kush attacked the Pharaoh's power in a daring land grab.
The Kushite king, Piye, overthrew the yoke, conquered mighty Egypt and established a 100-year rule of black Pharaohs. Even after being ousted from the Egyptian throne, Kushite kings continued to rule an empire as mighty as any, until the arrival of Alexander the Great.
For a number of years, British Museum archaeologists have been making find after find in the Upper Nile Valley to substantiate this story - huge lost pyramids, burial chambers of 200 workers, and stores of gold.
posted
Lol! What do you expect from a bastion of white supremacy down under? ABC is Australian Broadcasting Company and of course they want the descendants of theives and murderers who wiped out the natives of Australia to feel that they came from "more noble" people than the hunter gatherers of Western Europe who had no civilization 1000 years ago.....
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posted
The audacity of white supremacy in its modern incarnation is incredible. They are making it seem like its some kind of major 'discovery' lost to time. Never mind the fact that the Egyptians themselves were 'black' aswell. I suppose that went over their heads too.
posted
^ LOL I grow weary of this "black pharaohs" nonsense. It's actually hilarious when you think about it. By "black Pharaohs" they mean Kushites, but the Egyptians were black also. And their very institution of pharaoh is an African (black) one that is present in many parts of Africa-- divine kingship.
Another example of ignorant racism run a muck.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ If it implied Egypt was black, why bother saying that it was later conquered by black people??
Notice the obvious racist bias that indigenous African populations are almost alwasy described in racial terms or descriptions i.e. "negro" or 'black', while populations from elsewhere are not.
Hence when Macedonians conquered Greece, you never hear about 'Greece conquered by whites' or 'white conquerors of Greece'. When Chinas is conquered by the Mongols you never hear "Mongoloid" or "yellow" rulers of China. But it is only with Egypt, an ancient African nation that you hear about the Kushite dynasty or conquerors being "negro" or blacks as if the Egyptians were not.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
If, & after this programs airs, this would be the perfect time, & program, to let ABC know that their are groups of aware folks such as Djehuti, & others on this forum, that we are hip to their game ! Flood the ABC network with emials making it clear that a whole segment of folks are not buying the oke-dope & the reasons why!
Also we could comment on Couch Potato TV Blog, just like they asked ! Posts: 135 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Crap! I thought this was the American ABC. I don't live in Australia.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Clarice: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Pharaohs December 27, 2007
Don't miss The Black Pharaohs documentary on the ABC at 9.30pm.
Dr Vivian Davies claims that a recently discovered set of hieroglyphs proves that, in 800 BC, Egypt was under the rule of black Pharaohs from neighbouring Nubia.
This film examines the impact of these sensational discoveries. "Listen to me you who are upon earth...For I warn of the coming of Kush."
This inscription details an Egyptian tomb owner's role in saving Egypt from death and destruction in a war fought with the Kingdom of Kush (modern-day Sudan) in 1600 BC.
Historians have long known about Kush, but relegated its importance to a vassal state of Egypt, significant only for its gold reserves. Early excavations in the Kush capital at Kerma suffered from the innate racism of the archaeologists.
Fabulous grave goods, discovered in the 20th century, were thought to have belonged to Kush's Egyptian overlords. They didn't consider that a black African culture could have challenged Egypt's supremacy.
The inscription exposed the truth. Although it won battles, Kush eventually lost the war, and for the next 1000 years, Egypt had the upper hand. But the inscription served as a warning prophecy to Egypt that it might pay a high price.
The enslaved Kushites would have their revenge. Allowed, and even encouraged, to rebuild their own kingdom along the lines of Egypt, in 747 BC, Kush attacked the Pharaoh's power in a daring land grab.
The Kushite king, Piye, overthrew the yoke, conquered mighty Egypt and established a 100-year rule of black Pharaohs. Even after being ousted from the Egyptian throne, Kushite kings continued to rule an empire as mighty as any, until the arrival of Alexander the Great.
For a number of years, British Museum archaeologists have been making find after find in the Upper Nile Valley to substantiate this story - huge lost pyramids, burial chambers of 200 workers, and stores of gold.
Few things wrong here. Egypt did not have the upper hand over kush for a thousand years.kush was free by 1085 b.c. and kush had the basic power of egypt until the 800 b.c. then kush was becoming more powerful than egypt and became more powerful.kush was never enslaved by egypt between 1085 b.c. and 747 b.c.,kush was free major power again at that time.
Another point ,kush was still a mighty empire until,during and after alexander.that is why he never went south of egypt.I just wanted to clear that up ,that's all.
Abc? i thought it would be in the u.s. too
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Lol! What do you expect from a bastion of white supremacy down under? ABC is Australian Broadcasting Company and of course they want the descendants of theives and murderers who wiped out the natives of Australia to feel that they came from "more noble" people than the hunter gatherers of Western Europe who had no civilization 1000 years ago.....
Are you saying that 1000 yrs ago W Europe was pre-Neolithic, had no agriculture, no use of metals, no writing, etc?
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posted
1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
Well, you did say "hunters and gatherers", which implies pre-ag and pre-metal. You state there was no writing in W Europe during "Dark Age" 500-1000? Compare British Isles, France, Germany 500-1000 to comparable area in W Africa during that time. In philosophy, literature, learning, technology, fine arts, etc.
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posted
Whoa. This reminds me of your definition for mummy where the standards wavered pending whether the subject was Africa & blacks or Europe & whites.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
It was an exaggeration meant to be a sarcastic comment about the state of affairs concerning the histrionics that colonial Euro societies produce to sugar coat their history by attributing any and all civilization to "whites" while ancient Western Europe as not even home to an advanced civilization until after 1000 years ago.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Whoa. This reminds me of your definition for mummy where the standards wavered pending whether the subject was Africa & blacks or Europe & whites.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
It was based on the origin of the word and its historical usage as applied to Egypt as a cultural reference versus the more recent generic reference for any combination of cultural and natural forces that leads to a well preserved corpse.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It was an exaggeration meant to be a sarcastic comment about the state of affairs concerning the histrionics that colonial Euro societies produce to sugar coat their history by attributing any and all civilization to "whites" while ancient Western Europe as not even home to an advanced civilization until after 1000 years ago.
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: Few things wrong here. Egypt did not have the upper hand over kush for a thousand years.kush was free by 1085 b.c. and kush had the basic power of egypt until the 800 b.c. then kush was becoming more powerful than egypt and became more powerful.kush was never enslaved by egypt between 1085 b.c. and 747 b.c.,kush was free major power again at that time.
Another point ,kush was still a mighty empire until,during and after alexander.that is why he never went south of egypt.I just wanted to clear that up ,that's all.
Abc? i thought it would be in the u.s. too
Guys, when Clarice said the ABC he meant Australian Broadcasting Corporation, just as the BBC means British Broadcasting Corporation.
And Kenndo is correct. This is nothing more than a repetition of the same old crap about Egypt being a superior non-black (caucasian) civilization who always had an advatage over the inferior negro civilization of Kush until by some 'miracle', Kush gained an upperhand and conquered Egypt, establishing "black pharaohs".
Archaeology has refuted these ridiculous views, not only with the Egyptians being black also but the fact that Egypt *never* had control over Kush until New Kingdom times. In fact, Kush was very much Egypt's rival in the Nile Valley and there were actually several periods in history where Kush could have easily destroyed Egypt!
The Kushites invaded Egypt several times and could have conquered it before if they wanted to but they didn't. It was only by the 25th dynasty that Kush saw it as their birthright to rule Egypt.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
This is incorrect also. Western Europe had agriculture and metal tools by 2,000 BC which was 4,000 years ago. Their Iron Age came about in 1,000 BC.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: Few things wrong here. Egypt did not have the upper hand over kush for a thousand years.kush was free by 1085 b.c. and kush had the basic power of egypt until the 800 b.c. then kush was becoming more powerful than egypt and became more powerful.kush was never enslaved by egypt between 1085 b.c. and 747 b.c.,kush was free major power again at that time.
Another point ,kush was still a mighty empire until,during and after alexander.that is why he never went south of egypt.I just wanted to clear that up ,that's all.
Abc? i thought it would be in the u.s. too
Guys, when Clarice said the ABC he meant Australian Broadcasting Corporation, just as the BBC means British Broadcasting Corporation.
And Kenndo is correct. This is nothing more than a repetition of the same old crap about Egypt being a superior non-black (caucasian) civilization who always had an advatage over the inferior negro civilization of Kush until by some 'miracle', Kush gained an upperhand and conquered Egypt, establishing "black pharaohs".
Archaeology has refuted these ridiculous views, not only with the Egyptians being black also but the fact that Egypt *never* had control over Kush until New Kingdom times. In fact, Kush was very much Egypt's rival in the Nile Valley and there were actually several periods in history where Kush could have easily destroyed Egypt!
The Kushites invaded Egypt several times and could have conquered it before if they wanted to but they didn't. It was only by the 25th dynasty that Kush saw it as their birthright to rule Egypt.
I AGREE,AND egypt never went beyond the fourth cataract.they could not conquer the region below it.Thanks for the backup.
I WONDER HOW THIS PROGRAM WOULD BE like.Maybe i will catch it on youtube.
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posted
I DO NOT MEAN to change the subject and we could get back to it after this.DOUG, you mention this before and i will bring it up here.how many civilaztions in ancient europe you think there were?please name them.
Do you count crete?the minon and aegean has white european civilization in you list?because you mention there were only six.PLEASE tell me what you think.
tell us if you count these as well, civilizations after the roman empire in very late ancient times- ireland franks of france spain italy ,britain and germany
the greek city states,remember they were not united and each had their own leaders like the hausa city states- epirus piraeus delphi thebes olympia athens sparta rhodes sicily corinth byzantium and a few in italy.
these are not in europe but greek. cyprus cyrene greek egypt syria under the greeks pergamus pontus bithynia cappadocia bactria miletus halicarnassus colophon
now some others- byzantine empire rome and the eastern part when marc anthony split it and one other later on.the civil war during constantine's time macedonia etrusans thrace
these are all i could think of for now.as you could see some of the more recent ancient cultures of europe in ancient times were not in europe but they were european ruled.
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posted
Djehuti Quote: This is incorrect also. Western Europe had agriculture and metal tools by 2,000 BC which was 4,000 years ago. Their Iron Age came about in 1,000 BC.
I think Doug M was referring to White Europeans. I'm sure that we all understand that the original Black civilizations of southern Europe, i.e. Crete, Minoan, Etruscans, the cities of modern France and Spain were contemporaneous with Egypt and the others.
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Djehuti Quote: This is incorrect also. Western Europe had agriculture and metal tools by 2,000 BC which was 4,000 years ago. Their Iron Age came about in 1,000 BC.
I think Doug M was referring to White Europeans. I'm sure that we all understand that the original Black civilizations of southern Europe, i.e. Crete, Minoan, Etruscans, the cities of modern France and Spain were contemporaneous with Egypt and the others.
Cretans, Minoans, and Etruscans black? Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
With all that is problematic about the documentary "The Black Pharaohs", which a few of you on this forum, have rightly pointed out; it is a shame that here in the United States Of America they would not dare air this program doing prime time. For with it's "flaws & all", it still would be to "dangerous" & might peek peoples curiosity to want to know more & maybe the "Truth" about Kush, & her peoples, along with Kush's relationship with Egypt & their kinship.
I've only seen one program on Kush & that was on cable by the Discovery channel called I believe "The Lost Kingdom"( some of the same lies)
Not even during "Black History" month in February, would they (regular broadcast channels) have the guts to air such a program, with Flaws & All ! Posts: 135 | From: Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Djehuti Quote: This is incorrect also. Western Europe had agriculture and metal tools by 2,000 BC which was 4,000 years ago. Their Iron Age came about in 1,000 BC.
I think Doug M was referring to White Europeans. I'm sure that we all understand that the original Black civilizations of southern Europe, i.e. Crete, Minoan, Etruscans, the cities of modern France and Spain were contemporaneous with Egypt and the others.
NO, no, no. I said Western Europe, meaning France, Spain, Portugal, Britain, Germany and so forth. Greece, Italy, the Baltics, etc are Southern and Eastern Europe.
Western Europe did not really start having civilization in terms of a written language, architecture, math, science and organized sophisticated religion until about 1000 AD. Stonehenge is not considered evidence of an advanced civilization, but it is considered as evidence of an advanced culture. Western Europe had many different cultures and traditions going way back, but civilization in Western Europe by the "classical" definition: ie. like Greece or Rome, did not come until later.
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posted
It was always their birthright by that "certain claim" but it was only after Egyptians became affronted by Libyan maneuvres that Kush stepped in to clean house, Amun's house that is.
posted
Ebony Allen - Cretans, Minoans, and Etruscans black?
It wouldn't hurt you to do some reading, you won't have to go far, there are many threads on the subject on this board.
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The Dark Ages, otherwise known as the Early Middle Ages, was a period in European history from the collapse of Roman political control in the West—traditionally set in the 5th century—to about the late 11th century. It should be emphasized, however, that the fixing of dates for the beginning and end of the Dark Ages is arbitrary; at neither time was there any sharp break in the cultural development of the continent. The term Middle Ages seems to have been first used by Flavio Biondo of Forlí (1388-1463), a historian and apostolic secretary in Rome, in his Historiarum ab Inclinatione Romanorum Imperii Decades (Decades of History from the Deterioration of the Roman Empire), which was first published in 1483, although written some 30 years earlier. The term implied a suspension of time and, especially, a suspension of progress—a period of cultural stagnation. Modern scholarship generally divides the whole period of the Middle Ages into three stages and is much more concerned with diversity within the subdivisions of the Early, High and Late Middle Ages that lasted until around c. 1500.
EARLY MIDDLE AGES
No one definitive event marks the end of antiquity and the beginning of the Middle Ages. Neither the sack of Rome by the Goths under Alaric I in 410 nor the deposition in 476 of Romulus Augustulus, the last Roman emperor in the West, impressed their contemporaries as epoch-making catastrophes. Rather, by the end of the 5th century the culmination of several long-term trends—most notably a severe economic dislocation and the invasions and settlement of the various Germanic tribes within the borders of the Western Empire—had changed the face of Rome. For the next 300 years western Europe remained essentially a primitive culture, albeit one uniquely superimposed on the complex, elaborate culture of the Roman Empire, which was never entirely lost or forgotten.
FRAGMENTATION OF AUTHORITY
Although during this period the loose confederation of tribes began to coalesce into kingdoms, virtually no machinery of government existed, and political and economic development was local in nature. Regular commerce had ceased almost entirely, although—as modern scholars maintain—the money economy never entirely vanished. In the culmination of a process that had already begun in the Roman Empire, the peasantry became bound to the land and dependent on landlords for protection and the rudimentary administration of justice. Among the warrior aristocracy the most important social bonds were ties of kinship, but feudal connections were also emerging, which may have been rooted in the old Roman patron-client relationship or in the Germanic comitatus, the group of fighting companions. All such connections impeded any tendency toward political consolidation.
THE CHURCH Dark Ages Priest
A Priest during the Dark Ages.
The only universal European institution was the church, and even there a fragmentation of authority was the rule; all power within the church hierarchy was in the hands of local bishops. The bishop of Rome, the pope, had a certain fatherly preeminence based on his holding of the so-called chair of St. Peter, to whom it was supposed Christ had granted governing power, but neither the elaborate machinery of ecclesiastical government nor the idea of a monarchical church headed by the pope was to be developed for another 500 years. The church saw itself as the spiritual community of Christian believers, in exile from God's kingdom, waiting in a hostile world for the day of deliverance. The most important exiles were found outside the hierarchy of church government, in the monasteries that dotted Europe.
Opposed to the forces of fragmentation and local development were the tendencies within the church toward standardizing the rite, the calendar, and the monastic rule. Besides such administrative measures, the cultural memory of Rome persisted. By the 9th century, with the rise to power of the Carolingians, the beginnings of a new European unity based on the Roman legacy may be found, for Charlemagne's political power depended on educational reforms that used materials, methods, and aims from the Roman past.
CULTURE AND LEARNING
Cultural activity during the early Middle Ages consisted primarily in appropriating and systematizing the knowledge of the past. The works of classical authors were copied and annotated. Encyclopedic works, such as Isidore of Seville's Etymologies (623), which attempted to present the collected knowledge of humankind, were compiled. At the center of any learned activity stood the Bible; indeed, all secular learning was regarded as mere preparation for understanding the holy text.
The early Middle Ages drew to a close in the 10th century with new migrations and invasions—the coming of the Vikings from the north and the Magyars from the Asian steppes—and the weakening of all forces of European unity and expansion. The resulting violence and dislocation caused lands to be withdrawn from cultivation, population to decline, and the monasteries to again become outposts of civilization. Nevertheless, the cultural work of assimilating the legacy of antiquity had been done, and it was not to be lost.
posted
Kenndo, why are you asking questions about or posting information about such OBVIOUSLY BIASED programs from public TV?
Any KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON who has been on this board for awhile would see the GLARING OMISSIONS from the above transcript.
Therefore, if it is MISSING SUCH MAJOR PORTIONS of the historical record, why can't you see it for what it is without needing to ask us or show it to us?
Don't YOU see what is missing and can't YOU judge for yourself?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Kenndo, why are you asking questions about or posting information about such OBVIOUSLY BIASED programs from public TV?
Any KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON who has been on this board for awhile would see the GLARING OMISSIONS from the above transcript.
Therefore, if it is MISSING SUCH MAJOR PORTIONS of the historical record, why can't you see it for what it is without needing to ask us or show it to us?
Don't YOU see what is missing and can't YOU judge for yourself?
What are some of the omissions and missing info?
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posted
^ You know how Kenndo is -- always his focus on Kush. If only he would be the same with Egypt which is equally black and African.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Kenndo, why are you asking questions about or posting information about such OBVIOUSLY BIASED programs from public TV?
Any KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON who has been on this board for awhile would see the GLARING OMISSIONS from the above transcript.
Therefore, if it is MISSING SUCH MAJOR PORTIONS of the historical record, why can't you see it for what it is without needing to ask us or show it to us?
Don't YOU see what is missing and can't YOU judge for yourself?
What are some of the omissions and missing info?
If you don't know then you deserve what you get from these programs.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Kenndo, why are you asking questions about or posting information about such OBVIOUSLY BIASED programs from public TV?
Any KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON who has been on this board for awhile would see the GLARING OMISSIONS from the above transcript.
Therefore, if it is MISSING SUCH MAJOR PORTIONS of the historical record, why can't you see it for what it is without needing to ask us or show it to us?
Don't YOU see what is missing and can't YOU judge for yourself?
What are some of the omissions and missing info?
If you don't know then you deserve what you get from these programs.
The transcript Kenndo cited on the Dark Ages West Europe seems pretty unexceptionable. So, what's the big deal?
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^ You know how Kenndo is -- always his focus on Kush. If only he would be the same with Egypt which is equally black and African. [/QUOTE} to many invaders in egypt.overall sad ending.a great culture however. djehuti i will answer you more so on that .check your private email. Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I am not going to debate this with you doug but i just want to point this out-
Ireland had a advanced culture,not as advanced has rome but there was civilization there,so did the franks in france and there was a german civilization. civilizations exist in western europe during the early middle ages.there was written scripts there too,and the christian faith. other written scripts other than latin-
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ You know how Kenndo is -- always his focus on Kush. If only he would be the same with Egypt which is equally black and African.
He buys into the Egypt vs. Nubia ruse, which is just another version of Hamite vs. Negro.
posted
I AM INTERESTED IN THE AFRICAN RULED PERIODS OF EGYPT,NOT THE ARAB,GREEK OR OTHER INVADERS. WHEN OUTSIDERS DID INVADE THOSE IN THE SUDAN FOUGHT AND WON MOST OF THE TIMES AND THEY HAD A LONGER PERIOD OF FIGHT IN THEM,THAT'S ONE OF REASONS AM INTERESTED IN THE SUDAN OVERALL UP UNTIL TODAY AND OF COURSE OTHER THINGS.OVERALL I SEE HOPE STILL IN THE SUDAN,IN EGYPT TODAY I SEE NONE.THE ONLY CONQUESTS AND RULE FROM THE OUTSIDE OF PARTS OF THE SUDAN WAS FROM THE TURKS AND THE BRITS .THE BRITS WERE THE ONLY OUTSIDE INVADER LATER IN THE LATE 1800'S TO CONQUER ALL OF THE SUDAN.
THE NEW KINGDOM OF EGYPT AND MOST OF THE LATER HISTORY OF EGYPT I AM NOT TO CRAZY ABOUT.I HAVE THAT RIGHT TO FEEL THAT WAY.EGYPT IS TALKED ABOUT ALOT ON THIS FORUM AND YOU GUYS DO A GOOD JOB TALKING ABOUT EGYPT .I JUST FOCUS ON SOME EARLY CULTURES OUTSIDE OF EGYPT.THE MANDE I FOCUS ALOT MORE TOO MORE SO THAN EGYPT. I COULD COMPARE TO GHANA AND MALI,THEY ARE BOTH MANDE CULTURES BUT MALI PEEKS MY INTEREST MORE THAN GHANA.
IT'S JUST A PERSONAL INTEREST.I KNOW A FEW FOLKS WHO DO NOT CARE TO MUCH ABOUT MALI,NUBIA OR EGYPT. THE FOREST KINGDOMS OF AFRICA AND INNER AFRICA INTEREST THEM MORE SO THEY TALK ABOUT IT MORE.I DO FOCUS ON EGYPT FROM TIME TO TIME,BUT NOT AS MUCH AS MALI,KUSH,LATER NUBIA,ETC.
LONG AGO I USED TO FOCUS ON BOTH EQUALLY BUT I JUST FIND THE REGION SOUTH OF EGYPT A BIT MORE INTERESTING TO ME THAT IS WHY I FOCUS ON IT MORE AND SINCE THIS THREAD IS ABOUT KUSH AND THE TV SHOW OVERSEAS,I JUST WANTED TO GIVE MY THOUGHTS ON THE THE SHOW COMING OUT.
WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH DOUG IS THAT HE MENTIONS THAT WESTERN EUROPE HAD NO CIVILZATION,AND EARLY EUROPE HAD ONLY SIX,THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING AND CORRECTING HIM ABOUT BECAUSE HE MENTION IT IN THIS THREAD AND HE DID IT BEFORE AND NO ONE QUESTION HIM ABOUT IT .IN HIS RESPONSE HE DID NOT TALK ABOUT EGYPT OR KUSH.
SEE Djehuti WHY DID YOU HAVE TO GET RASOL STARTED AGAIN,AND WHY DID YOU HAVE TO PICK ON ME LIKE THAT.I THOUGH WE WERE ON THE SAME PAGE HERE IN THIS THREAD. YOU GUYS AT TIMES YOU SEEM TO BE TALKING RIGHT AND NEXT YOU JUST PICK ON FOLKS LIKE A SCHOOL YARD BULLY.ARE YOU FRIEND OR FOE?MAKE UP YOUR MINDS.I EXPLAIN A LONG TIME AGO WHEN I FIRST CAME HERE THAT I WAS INTEREST IN THE REGION SOUTH OF EGYPT MORE SO,BUT I TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS FROM TIME TO TIME,EVEN EGYPT.ANYWAY IF THIS IS THE TREATMENT I WILL GET HERE THAN I GUESS I AM NOT NEEDED HERE ANYMORE THAN I WILL JUST LEAVE.I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THIS .
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quote:Originally posted by kenndo: I am not going to debate this with you doug but i just want to point this out-
Ireland had a advanced culture,not as advanced has rome but there was civilization there,so did the franks in france and there was a german civilization. civilizations exist in western europe during the early middle ages.there was written scripts there too,and the christian faith. other written scripts other than latin-
quote- Western Europe did not really start having civilization in terms of a written language, architecture, math, science and organized
Kenndo, I did not say that Europe did not have advanced cultures, I said that OUTSIDE of ROMAN and GREEK culture in the EAST they had no advanced culture until about 1000AD. And this INCLUDES THE FRANKS. If you know anything about this time, the Germanic tribes from the North were considered BARBARIANS by all who spoke of them in the period before 1000AD. It wasn't until they moved South, into contact with Islamic culture and the culture of Christianity which was moving out of Africa into Europe, that they became a part of the so-called Renaissance and began to develop advanced civilization. It is the Franks, Normans and other such Germanic groups that are said to be the Great "blonde Aryans" that introduced civilization to Europe, but that isn't quite right. They did NOT bring civilization with them from Northern Europe, they brought warfare and after being able to absorb the culture and learing from Roman, Greek and Muslim sources, they began to bring civilization to the rest of Europe. The Franks and Irish mainly benefited from the arrival of Christian monks in a very early period, around 500 AD. This allowed them to begin to develop works of Christian illumination and learning that are among some of the oldest anywhere. Christianity among the Franks was an important source of early Frankish culture in Gaul, along with more Barbarian elements. So, yes, there were many strong and advanced cultures in Western Europe prior to 1000 AD, but mainly things really took off with the spread of the Normans into Britain, introducing Norman architecture and organization learned from the Muslims in Spain, along with the growth of French and Italian Kingdoms as they became organized for the Crusades and began to study translated Greek and Roman science and learning from the Muslims in earnest.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 1000 years ago Western Europe, ie. West of Italy, was just beginning to develop civilization. Agriculture and use of metals does not signify civilization.
Well, you did say "hunters and gatherers", which implies pre-ag and pre-metal. You state there was no writing in W Europe during "Dark Age" 500-1000? [b]Compare British Isles, France, Germany 500-1000 to comparable area in W Africa during that time. In philosophy, literature, learning, technology, fine arts, etc. p/b
What philosophy, literature, fine arts and technology do you speak of? Clearly these were introduced just prior to the renaissance, and mainly by Muslims whom collected and translated the Greek texts and introduced mathematical systems not widely used in Europe, previously.
Fine art in west Africa, pre-1000 A.D.?
Please refer to the art traditions of Benin, Ife, and Nok. Matter of factly, upon the initial discovery of terracotta heads and statuettes in Ife, Leo Frobenius suggested that the art work was reminiscent of that seen in classical Greece and Rome (note, he did not use contemporary W. Europe as a standard of comparison). Ironicaly, the art work was so breath-taking, that he'd went to far to hypthesize that he'd found traces of a lost Greek colony on the Atlantic coast of W. Africa.
You can read some of it first hand. Check out this exhibition from the Library of Congress:
quote:Timbuktu, Mali, is the legendary city founded as a commercial center in West Africa nine hundred years ago. Dating from the 16th to the 18th centuries, the ancient manuscripts presented in this exhibition cover every aspect of human endeavor and are indicative of the high level of civilization attained by West Africans during the Middle Ages.
Learning? See above and also look up Sankore University. It had over 25,000 students.
Philosophy:
Ifa philosophy is indeed among the most complex, as well as Dogon philosophy. I also suggest you look up African Sage Philosophy
Technology?
Unlike W. Europe, most of it was developed indigenously, especially Iron and smelting, where it was developed much earlier than in basically any part of Europe.
Eye Cataract surgery was practiced in Djenne, Mali (One of the oldest cities in W. Africa) with precision well before the practice emerged as less than barbaric in W. Europe. There is also a great possibility that W. Africans mastered naval and sea technology, to the extent that they'd reach the Americas prior to Columbus. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1068950.stm
Kongolese were aware of lead toxins and hence, practiced preventative methods (medical and procedural) to prevent lead poisoning. Prior to the small pox vaccine, a west African slave referred to as Onesimus actually taught Europeans about a preventative and curative method (not 100%, but better than what they had at the time) he'd learned in west Africa, called variolation.
There is so much more but it would be redundant. You simply gave the implication that W. Europe around 1000 A.D., or W. Europe in the middle ages, contemporary with W. Africa, was some how "more advanced", which can be easily seen as absurd.
Also see the ancient views on European morality and achievement from medieval observers. This, as opposed to some of the favorable views of Africans, though this is indeed selective since all views of Africans certainly weren't pristine either, but rather it is just a comparative example for the purpose of dispelling stereotypes.
posted
^ You guys are getting off topic again. Then again, what's new here in Egyptsearch?
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