quote: Ian Shaw himself points out the primarily African origins of the early language and its Semitic influenced developments from the New Kingdom onwards (and I will otherwise have to refrain from a full critique of the 1500 word essay you have appended to your post, but it is clear that Nile cultures and the Nile ecosystem weighed heavily in the formation of their culture over time - again as opposed to the homogenized "black African" stance).
From the forgoing, I'll quote again Ian Shaw that `In other words, the Egyptians were not quintessentially black, brown or white - they were simply Egyptian.'
False dichotomy. Being black does not preclude being an ancient Egyptian, as stated. Egyptian is nationalistic or cultural reference and has nothing to do with skin color, which is absolutely correct. But all humans have skin color, including the ancient Egyptians and therefore, describing that skin color does not change the nationalistic or cultural identity of the people. Saying otherwise is a false dichotomy, as if black means something different from Egyptian, which is purely an artifact of white paranoia over ancient Egyptian history. The ancient Egyptians themselves had no problem with this as black was a key term that they used for themselves and never used for any other population. Which again shows that it is the modern European oriented scholars that have a problem with Egyptian and black going together and being equally relevant to the ancient Egyptian population, hence their efforts to dilute and distort the meaning of the Medu Ntr and Egyptian cosmology to introduce a false dichotomy between Egyptian and black.
In other words, being Egyptian does not preclude being black. And being and ancient Egyptian does not mean that ancient Egyptians had no skin color and were not black.
Likewise, since the Nile is wholly within Africa and that populations have been developing culture and lifestyles oriented to the Nile for longer than humans have been outside Africa, it is also a false dichotomy to present a Nile culture that is distinct from black culture. Nile Valley culture is black culture as it originated in Africa along with black Africans, which is precisely what Egyptian cosmology reflects.
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^ didn't you argue once that there was some color schema between Egyptians and Nubians and even posted selected pictures from Sudan to back up your argument? Talk about false dichotomy.
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Egyptians today dont say they are black but if u are talking about ancient egyptians they would claim there african blackness without hesitating but Egyptians these days like my mom they claim not to be black african i dont know why its almost like taboo
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Abu, which part of Egypt are you from? Although most modern Egyptians donot looke like ''black'' Africans many Sa3eedi have both African cultural and physical traits. Particulary the ones around Luxor and Aswan. Although most sa3eedi would probably not call themselves black when questioned.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:I'll quote again Ian Shaw that `In other words, the Egyptians were not quintessentially black, brown or white - they were simply Egyptian.'
^ this is also a jibberish sentense. The word Egyptian is nowhere found in mdw ntr.
Actually the word and concept of "Egyptian" is Greek, and would have had no meaning in dynastic times.
The native - and African term for the civilisation in question was "Kemet" pronounced Keme' - which means Black.
So actually Africans of the ancient Nile Valley did consider themselves Blacks, and did not consider themselves "Egyptian".
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quote:Originally posted by AbuAnu: Egyptians today dont say they are black but if u are talking about ancient egyptians they would claim there african blackness without hesitating but Egyptians these days like my mom they claim not to be black african i dont know why its almost like taboo
I think its to do with a shift of the sphere of power. Egypt has gone from being an African culture to a largely Arabic culture. As such, in Egypt (and throughout the middle East), the aspiration is to be classed as an Arab. In the early years of the Yemenite Arab invasion into Egypt, the Arabs would still take native Egyptian women as concubines and wives, their resulting offspring of mixed children were raised as Arab's, and not Africans. However, looking like African's, they were more aggressive in their rejection of Africa, because what was operating was effectively a caste system (I remember Chancellor Williams writing about the use of the Mulatto race to push forward a caste system in Egypt). As you may know, Arab's in history have been some of the most ruthless slave traders, and they, like the European used their religion to justify the cause, that which did not assimilate to Islam was OK to enslave. Unfortunately, Blacks (especially in Egypt, where we had been forming our religions through millenia of philosophy) were among some of the most resistant to Islamic religious reforms, and as such, contributed to a large % of the arabic slave count, and are associated with slavery in the Arabic community. Slavery is still being carried out in Mauritania from what I understand, and this attitude is still current in Sudan and Egypt today. Black North Africans with any semblance of Middle Eastern blood classify themselves Arab, as opposed to African and try their hardest to breed out their African origins, aspiring to be 'Arabs' and not 'Africans'. I used to teach 2 Sudanese students who were as dark as they come, as dark as me, yet they would refuse to be called Black, they would say 'sir, we're not black, we're Arab...' This is one of the factors so effective in shaping the modern look of Lower Egypt to date. In fact, I would argue most Cairo-based Egyptians, taken out of Egypt and into the UK would be classed as mixed-race, and in America classed as black. But in the Arab world, particularly in Egypt, a black is like a swear word. Obviously, we know the two terms (Arab and Black) aren't mutually exclusive, as you can be a Black African Arab, but in the Middle-Eastern world, they do have the notion of the Arab 'race', regardless of how innaccurate a phenotypical description it is. The entire Islamic world (including modern North Africa, Sudan, and even as far south as Somalia) view black skin with disdain, and fair skin as superior. The conflict of interests of being a black Muslim in the Eastern world is that socially, you are classified lower and the interpretation of Islam in the Eastern world enshrining Mecca, and thus, Saudi Arabians as the 'true' people and blacks as slaves, or converts.
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We had this topic many times and I think it is time for you browse the old threads, because I see the smoke of Eurocentric/Orientalist view dominate you comment.
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We had this topic many times and I think it is time for you browse the old threads, because I see the smoke of Eurocentric/Orientalist view dominate you comment.
Read my post to the end: Obviously, we know the two terms (Arab and Black) aren't mutually exclusive, as you can be a Black African Arab, but in the Middle-Eastern world, they do have the notion of the Arab 'race', regardless of how innaccurate a phenotypical description it is. The entire Islamic world (including modern North Africa, Sudan, and even as far south as Somalia) view black skin with disdain, and fair skin as superior. The conflict of interests of being a black Muslim in the Eastern world is that socially, you are classified lower and the interpretation of Islam in the Eastern world enshrining Mecca, and thus, Saudi Arabians as the 'true' people and blacks as slaves, or converts. Posts: 365 | Registered: Dec 2008
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We had this topic many times and I think it is time for you browse the old threads, because I see the smoke of Eurocentric/Orientalist view dominate you comment.
In short, I don't define being an Arab at all, my post was based on the perception in the Middle East of what an Arab is. What an 'Arab' is is for Muslim's to decide. What an Arab is viewed as in the Middle East is sometimes in conflict to being black... at least that's my experience living here...
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Also, being an "Arab" has nothing to do with being a Muslim. Muslim means a believer, and some Arabs are among the believers of Muslim religion, Islam, and then there are Arab Christians, Arab Jews and so forth.
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quote:Originally posted by Arwa: Whose perception? Yours or someone else?
Also, being an "Arab" has nothing to do with being a Muslim. Muslim means a believer, and some Arabs are among the believers of Muslim religion, Islam, and then there are Arab Christians, Arab Jews and so forth.
An honest perception. I live in the Middle East. I assume you're Arab, or connected some how, and didn't want to cause offence, but generally Arab's do have a notion of an Arab 'race'. Whether or not this can be justified, or what an Arab is or is not, I cannot define, neither will I attempt to.
When I said 'muslim's can decide' I was speaking in reference to the regard that the Arab is held in in the Islamic culture, and the effect that this has had on the casting of race in several Middle Eastern nations.
The Arabic community do have a very active racial caste system (that even Northern Egyptians fall prey to), being viewed as 'dark' or 'mixed' people. African 'Arabs' are looked down upon generally in society. Is an Arab the speaker of a language, or someone with a cultural connection to Arabia?... perhaps you could feel me in more on what the true meaning is, I could not define it, nor would I try to. But in Islamic nations, the is viewed as the unspoken superior race, and the perception is that Arab and black are in many ways treated distinctly.
I'm do not intend to reinforce any dated racial arguments, just answering a query regarding the racial stigma regarding being a 'black' Egyptian and its origins from my honest knowledge and experience... I knew when I posted it that it didn't write flatteringly of African's or Arab's in general, but it was an attempt at honesty... feel free to pull me up if you have viewed anything incorrect...
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No, you should be free to speak your mind and I truly hope we will continue this civilized conversation. First, I am not an Arab and I have nothing to do with Arab culture.
I am surprised that someone who claim to live in an Arab country can't distinguish Islamic and Arabic terms. Do you know the difference? Because when you use the term Islamic, then you are implying that it also involves someone from Peru, Chile or New Zealand who happen to share same faith as an Arab Muslim.
So my question is, are you speaking of socially perspective or religious perspective when it comes to "Arab" definition , because that would clear a little bit in our future conversation, Insha'Allah.
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quote:Originally posted by Arwa: No, you should be free to speak your mind and I truly hope we will continue this civilized conversation. First, I am not an Arab and I have nothing to do with Arab culture.
I am surprised that someone who claim to live in an Arab country can't distinguish Islamic and Arabic terms. Do you know the difference? Because when you use the term Islamic, then you are implying that it also involves someone from Peru, Chile or New Zealand who happen to share same faith as an Arab Muslim.
So my question is, are you speaking of socially perspective or religious perspective when it comes to "Arab" definition , because that would clear a little bit in our future conversation, Insha'Allah.
Please tell me what Islamic and Arabic terms I have used?
I can easily distinguish between Islam and Arab, but I am talking about the perception of the 'Arab', within Islam, which drove forward Arabic culure in land which it was foreign to. You misunderstand me if you think I can't distinguish between the 2. Put this back in context of the topic. My post was talking about the Islamic cultural uplifting of the Arab world, the definition that Islam has given Arabic, first as 'THE' purist of all languages; then Arabia as the homeland of pilgrimage and the origin of the Islamic religion, much like Israel to the Jew. Then, the socio-political influence Arabia has over the wider Islamic community, beyond Arabia, and the influence this has had on casting for the non-geographically 'Arab' citizens of North Africa. Whether or not Arab has anything to do with Islam (as I have made every effort not to cross the line of defining what an Arab is), North African's and Middle Easterner's who take on the Islamic religion (culture and language) also assimilate to becoming 'Arabs', whether or not this is a requirement of the religion, why is this, perhaps you could offer more insight? Obviously, Arabic, and Arabia predate Islam, but the religion and conquest of Islamic invaders in Africa have shaped a paradigm of the 'arab' in the minds of both Middle Easterner's and African Muslim's as the Arab being something superior.
Perhaps you could venture a guess as to why a Sudani, or Egyptian would classify themselve's as an Arab. This is not my logic, nor is it logical to me, but this is a reality that plays itself out accross the Eastern (Islamic) world... once again, I understand that Arab does not mean Islamic and vice versa, but then, this does not halt the assimilation into the Arabic community of Islamic converts, and ultimately, THIS amongst other things has shaped the psyche of the Black Egyptian/Sudanese to reject the label's 'black' and 'African' in favour of 'Arab'...
Is that a bit clearer than my last post...?
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OK, it is very hard for me where to start. You are still using the two terms as equal; Arabic and Islamic. The language of the Qur'an is Arabic, becuase the Prophet(PBUH) spook Arabic and that is why the Qur'an was revealed to him in Arabic, and say if the Prophet(PBUH) was a Chinese, then the Qur'an would have been revealed in Chinese, becaue how could any Prophets (PBUT) preach to his congregations in a language they don't speak or know? And where did you get when you write:
quote:'THE' purist of all languages;
Furthermore, when you speak of Islamic term, then you are speaking of two things; the Qur'an or the Ahadiths, which both of them are the building blocks of Islam. So when write
quote: the 'Arab', within Islam"
, how is 'Arab' came into Islam (The Qur'an or Ahadith)? Furthermore, there is nothing called:
quote:Islamic converts
.
Islam is the religion, Muslim are the follower of Islam, because otherwise Islamic means the Qur'an and Ahadith.
Also, note, Arab people and Arab language existed before the Prophet(PBUH) was born.
And also you wrote:
quote:I understand that Arab does not mean Islamic and vice versa, but then, this does not halt the assimilation into the Arabic community of Islamic converts, and ultimately, THIS amongst other things has shaped the psyche of the Black Egyptian/Sudanese to reject the label's 'black' and 'African' in favour of 'Arab'
You either blame Arabs or Islam for rejecting their Blackness and their culture. Which one?
And last if you think that Islam requires uniformity of all cultures or nationalities, then you are wrong, because among Allah's(swt)signs are: "O humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know and deal with each other in kindness (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God (is he who is) the most righteous of you, and God is Knower, Aware." (Qur'an 49:13).
And I don't know why you keep using Islamic or Islam in this conversation. What is wrong with Arab or Arabic?
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As you can see Islam allows tribes and nations. People to have their own culture and nationalities, so we can learn from each other. Ex. There are much I can learn someone from Greenland and his diet (fish) - and vis-a-vis.
Anyway, I'll give a scholarly work from 2007 on Arab influence in Sudan; and note, there is no single reference of Islam:
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: OK, it is very hard for me where to start. You are still using the two terms as equal; Arabic and Islamic. The language of the Qur'an is Arabic, becuase the Prophet(PBUH) spook Arabic and that is why the Qur'an was revealed to him in Arabic, and say if the Prophet(PBUH) was a Chinese, then the Qur'an would have been revealed in Chinese, becaue how could any Prophets (PBUT) preach to his congregations in a language they don't speak or know? And where did you get when you write:
quote:'THE' purist of all languages;
Furthermore, when you speak of Islamic term, then you are speaking of two things; the Qur'an or the Ahadiths, which both of them are the building blocks of Islam. So when write
quote: the 'Arab', within Islam"
, how is 'Arab' came into Islam (The Qur'an or Ahadith)? Furthermore, there is nothing called:
quote:Islamic converts
.
Islam is the religion, Muslim are the follower of Islam, because otherwise Islamic means the Qur'an and Ahadith.
Also, note, Arab people and Arab language existed before the Prophet(PBUH) was born.
And also you wrote:
quote:I understand that Arab does not mean Islamic and vice versa, but then, this does not halt the assimilation into the Arabic community of Islamic converts, and ultimately, THIS amongst other things has shaped the psyche of the Black Egyptian/Sudanese to reject the label's 'black' and 'African' in favour of 'Arab'
You either blame Arabs or Islam for rejecting their Blackness and their culture. Which one?
And last if you think that Islam requires uniformity of all cultures or nationalities, then you are wrong, because among Allah's(swt)signs are: "O humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know and deal with each other in kindness (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God (is he who is) the most righteous of you, and God is Knower, Aware." (Qur'an 49:13).
And I don't know why you keep using Islamic or Islam in this conversation. What is wrong with Arab or Arabic?
I think the problem is somewhat rooted in degrees of misunderstanding on both parts.
quote:You are still using the two terms as equal; Arabic and Islamic.
I really thought I wasn't. Once again, I am not reflecting my viewpoint, but a societal veiwpoint. As I said earlier, defining 'Arab' is not pertinent to my point, that BECAUSE of the interpretation/practise of Islam, 'Arab's' (whatever you define them as) are held in higher esteem than others. Whether or not this is correct/incorrect unIslamic is beyond the realms of my argument. My point is that this is practised.
quote: The language of the Qur'an is Arabic, becuase the Prophet(PBUH) spook Arabic and that is why the Qur'an was revealed to him in Arabic
That's exactly my point. The origins of Islam are associated with Arabia. Hence, where Islam is practised across the middle East/Africa, the aspiration is to be Arabic. Once again, whether or not this correct is beyond my point. I am not blaming Islam as a religion for this, but the effect is still a classing system that encompasses the societies where Islam is practised. Also, it is pointless for me to argue this outside the realms of Islam, because ONLY Muslim Sudani's/Egyptian's will reject their Black identity in favour of 'Arab'. Black Christian Sudani's don't claim to be Arab, the endearment towards Arabia comes from the interpretation (no matter how fallacious) of the cultural/religious practise of Islam, and Islamic history in the region.
quote: how is 'Arab' came into Islam (The Qur'an or Ahadith)? Furthermore, there is nothing called:
quote:Islamic converts
.
Islam is the religion, Muslim are the follower of Islam, because otherwise Islamic means the Qur'an and Ahadith.
Thanks for that, I'll be sure not to use the term Islamic converts again. However, I did only use to emphasise the point that when North African peoples become 'Muslims', that they also become 'Arab's'. Now you and I both know the 2 terms are mutually exclusive, as I've said from the start, but it doesn't stop this situation from occuring.... as I said earlier, perhaps you can shine some light as to WHY this is...
quote: Also, note, Arab people and Arab language existed before the Prophet(PBUH) was born.
I did state that. But it doesn't lessen the significance of Arabic and the province(s) of Arabia from taking precedence in the minds of practising Muslims as being the culture to aspire to. Once again, whether or not this is right, or promoted by the Qu'ran or Ahadith's is beyond my ability to discourse and probably a religious debate, and there is no way I'm going to tell you anything you don't already know about Islam.... I was simply pointing out what I thought was an obvious preference is many nations that would classify themselves as 'Islamic'.
quote: And last if you think that Islam requires uniformity of all cultures or nationalities, then you are wrong, because among Allah's(swt)signs are:
Once again, I'm not blaming the religion for this occurance, I don't know enough about it to claim that these things are promoted within the religion.
quote: And I don't know why you keep using Islamic or Islam in this conversation. What is wrong with Arab or Arabic?
Because I'm trying to remain on topic and not lose the focus of the debate. Islam is responsible for bringing Arabic culture into Africa. It was under Islamic invasions that Egypt was colonised, and it is the influence of the practise of Islam (whether right or wrong) that influences Black Africans to reject their heritage and skin colour in favour of the term 'Arab'. Once again, the only reason I have argued using Islam is because Black Sudani's and Egyptians won't claim 'Arab' unless they are under some form of Islamic influence...
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Actually the funny part is that the idea of "Arab" supremacy has more to do with economic, military and political power than anything else. As an example, almost never do you hear Ottoman Turks called Arabs. Why is that? Because they were the power of the Arabic speaking world for a large part of its history. And that power and wealth generated prestige and no need to claim Arab identity. And Persians have never identified themselves as being Arab.
In reality Egypt is more Turkish, Greek, African and Syrian with Arab and other elements than truly Arab, but because of the place Egypt is within the Arab world culturally, religiously, politically, the Arab identity has major cache, even if genetically and ethnically it is minimal at best. Practically Arab identity is a tool for national identity and identification with a larger cause, which becomes a guiding factor in such a distinction. In that sense it becomes about as meaningless in terms of describing true ethnic and genetic affiliation as much as the term American relative to the various ethnicities and genes. This is most obvious in Sudan, because of the dark skin of the natives, but it is equally true in places like Egypt, Syria and Iraq where such Arab identity is based more on historical, cultural and political factors than genetic and ethnic factors. And the West has had a large role in fostering this sense of Arab identity in formerly Ottoman provinces after WWI:
quote: In 1917, the British, with the help of colonial soldiers from India, took Jerusalem and Baghdad. This terminated 400 years of Ottoman/Turkish rule. Ottoman rule over the centuries had allowed the region to enjoy virtual autonomy—so long as taxes were paid to Istanbul. When Sir Harold Maude rode on his horse into Baghdad at the head of his conquering British/colonial army, he issued his paternalistic "Proclamation of Baghdad" in which he announced to the surprised and hitherto unconsulted Arab and Kurdish people their liberation from the Ottomans of the long leash. "We come as liberators, not as occupiers," the proclamation read in an echo that would ring hollow in its American version to the citizens of Baghdad in March of 2003.
With the ingratitude typical of occupied people, Iraqis rebelled with a resistance 100,000 strong. Winston Churchill placed the control of Iraq in the hands of the Royal Air Force, asking if it would be possible for the RAF to use some kind of asphyxiating bombs. Indeed, Churchill's enthusiasm for poisoned gas was total: "I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favor of using gas against uncivilised tribes."
Poisoned gas, was used on Arabs and Kurds. There are still Iraqis alive who remember the terror-RAF bombings of their villages in the '20s, "sometimes they raided three times a day." RAF Wing Commander, Sir Arthur Harris, Bomber Harris of Dresden in WW II, then said, "The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes, a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured."
When the rebellion was quelled, the British looked around to find an "Arab facade" on their rule of Iraq. They selected the son of a British ally in WW I—Prince Faisal of the Hashemite dynasty, a Sunni from Arabia, and made him King of Iraq in 1927. King Faisal was succeeded in 1933 by his son, Ghazi, an anti-British nationalist, whom the British found uncooperative. He died conveniently in a car accident, strongly suspected to have been arranged by His British Majesty's government in London.
The point being that most of the "Arab" world is a fabrication created by European interests as a result of the European defeat of the Ottoman Empire, including the creation of the modern Arab states in Arabia. In Egypt the Mamelukes and Ottomans were actually at war with "Arabs" in Arabia. So much of that "Arab" identity is actually more of a search for some socio-historical-cultural unity based on political expedience than absolute reality. In fact, Egypt in particular, as the second biggest recipient of U.S. foreign AID, is another example of an Arab front propped up by Western Money.
It is precisely the money and power of the modern Arabian states, propped up by Western interests and petroleum dollars that has made Arabia more "prestigious" in the minds of many populations. This wealth and power generates this prestige and causes other politicians to gravitate towards this sphere of influence. But in gravitating towards this sphere, much of the Arab identity is contrived based more on historical fiction than fact and propagated due to the wealth and access to power that comes from such associations. Egypt was mostly Ottoman oriented from the 1500s to 1800s and during that time was at conflic t with pre Saudi Arabian tribes at various times. Sudan was mostly Christian up to the 15th century and then after Ottoman conquests of formerly Christian states, there arose the "black sultanate" (As Saltana az Zarqa) of the Funj, which ruled a large part of Sudan from the 1500s up until the 1800s when the Ottomans invaded Sudan . Up until that time Sudan was divided up among various competing OPENLY BLACK African kingdoms from North to South.
But even with all of that, much of this Arab identity comes from the practice of forcing children into an Islamic educational system based on the Quran, where you can be severely beat for not memorizing it verbatim. That and additional indoctrination at a young age produces such Arab minded black African adults. Other practices also helped promote this, but his is one part of it.
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Everyone who speaks Arabic and is in the Arab League considers themselves to be Arab it doesnt matter if u are from liyba Algeria Mauritania or Oman they will tell u i am from Yemen or Syria i am Arab then u have those who are muslim and from pakistan or india and claim lineage from prophet Muhammed or some Arab like for instance alot of tribes in Sudan will claim this Arab guy came and changed the whole bloodline Now they are SuperArab ana walahi so its hard to sit and tell someone from Liyba or Magreeb that they have another lineage other than arab basically that other lineage doesnt matter to them.
Ausar my mother is from Tima
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Outside of Arabia the populations in "Arab" countries are actually a mix of ethnicities and identities. And historically the shifting norms, allegiances and power structures meant that identifying as an "Arab" wasn't always as prominent as it is today, as opposed to identifying with ones clan.
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Yeah u are right but religion has alot 2 do with alot arabs and non arabs claiming a Hashemite origin. Its all about Clan and Tribe.
Actually even within Arabia like for instance Qatar and Dubai most of those Arabs are of different lineages. There is no pure Arab they all have mixed
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