posted
One of the biggest changes to Egyptology in recent times was the concession by European Egyptologist that Egypt was indeed an African civilization rather than Asiatic. Since the birth of Egyptology it had been assumed that Africans were incapable of such a great civilization. Now, things have come full circle with the Egyptian people reclaiming their glory and scientist tracing of origin question to the Sahara rather than to Sumeria.
So it is with this new change in direction that I start this thread. Clearly trying to avoid the distractions that other less than educated people have concerning an Arabic or Asiatic origin for Egypt and turning to what the physical evidence supports in terms of origin.
Obviously the question of this thread is based on the people of Southern Libya. A people who we know as the Garamante but were certainly called something else. A people tied to the Tuareg of the Sahara and the Cushitic speaking Beja Sudanese.
Why would these ancient Berbers of Libya who lived semi-nomadic lives have anything to do with Egypt? Please becareful with the term Berber. These people were African and their remains are no different than that of their surrounding neighbors in the interior of Africa. These are not pale skin Kabyles but people very similar to the modern day Beja Sudanese and Nubian people.
I focus on these people in this thread to develop as much information as I can about the Garmanates civilization because it is history that is clearly missing from our text books and is missing from the conscience of our African awareness.
From pyramid shaped tombs, to incredible irrigation systems to the earliest traditions of mummification. Were these so called barbarians at the forefront of bringing about one of Human kinds greatest civilizations?
I open this thread with that question. And would like to start it with the discovery of the "Black Mummy" by Professor Fabrizio Mori at the Uan Muhuggiag site.
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posted
Refreshing change of topic. Intellectually stimulating approach. Discuss on the “origins” or similar civilizations to AE in Africa. Keeping in mind Europe had nothing similar at the time.
From Wiki –
The Garamantes were farmers, engineers and merchants. Their religion was based on Egyptian models, and some of their dead were buried in small pyramids. They used the Libyco-Berber script for writing. The discovery of the "Black Mummy" by Professor Fabrizio Mori at the Uan Muhuggiag suggests that there may even have been a long tradition of mummification in the region.
The Romans kept close trade contacts with Garamantes; archaeologists have even found a Roman bathhouse in Garama. The Roman chronicler Maternus accompanied a Garamantian ruler on a four-month military expedition to what is now the border area of Nigeria. Still, in spite of the trade relations, Romans did not really consider them civilized. . . . .
… In the 1st century BC, the Garamantes raided North Africa and clashed with Roman forces.
…Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^ Let's not forget an epithet the Romans had for them was 'Negritai'.
Anyway, regarding your topic question Osirion, there is no doubt the Garamantes and the Egyptians share a common origins and roots in the Sahara, but that is a far cry from the Gramantes themselves being ancestors of the Egyptians.
As for the Garamante religion, how much of it is due to Egyptian influence and how much of it is due to common origin?? Also the Lybico-Berber script survives today in the Tifinagh script of the Tuareg.
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^ I have heard that it was a Tuareg man that successfully deciphered Tifnagh script. Now that might be an interesting avenue to explore their history by their old script.
As for 'Negritai', these people are most likely very similar to Tuareg and we know that the Tuareg are a diverse African people in terms of appearance. This is true of African people in general and so that topic is a worn out subject.
Moving on:
I have found very little information about the Garamante people. Unfortunately this is the way it is with tracing Egyptian culture to the Sahara. Its all buried under Sand and there's very little money in terms of grants to support the type of excavations one would need to prove something that isn't at all popular.
I am going to check out a Frank Snowden book and get excepts into this thread. His use of outdated terms such as Negroid has me concerned but I don't seem to have any other leads.
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Kel Tamasheq women have been the principle users custodians and guardians of Tifinagh scripts -- primarily for love poems -- no mysterious decypherer necessary.
If this thread is to be meaningful, not misinformative, please research its subject matter in some depth before posting.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ I have heard that it was a Tuareg man that successfully deciphered Tifnagh script.
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^ True, however, I wasn't talking about modern Tifnagh scripts but the script used by the Garmantes which is an ancient version. Essentially proto-Tifinagh script. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Please give me time to get Snowdens book which has references to source material on this subject. I will be back.
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Some of the first African colonists to arrive in Greece came from Crete. These Cretans were called Garamantes. After the goddess Ker or Car, these people also came to be also known as the Carians. The Carians spoke a Mande languages.
These people usually sailed to the Islands in Aegean and the surrounding coast were they established prosperous trading communities. There is frequent mention of the Garamantes of the Fezzan, in Classical literature of Greece and Rome. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black.
Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river. The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians.
The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother. Many of the Greek myths are historical text which discuss the transition of Greece from an matriarchal society to a patriarchal Aryan society. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea.
The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyco-Nubians settled around the Black Sea.
The classical Carians and Egyptians were very close. Having originated in the Fertile African Crescent they had similar gods and cultural traditions dating back to the Proto-Saharan period.
The Garamantes founded Attica, where they worked the mines at Laureium. Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fruitfulness, came from the Fezzan (Libya) by way of Crete. It was Demeter who took poppy seeds and figs to Europe. Apollonius Rhodius (.iv.1310) tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Triton in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia by the Cretans in Linear A writing. This shows that the Garamantes took this god to Europe in addition to Demeter and Amon (=Ammon ,Amma).
By 3000 BC, the Garamantes has spread their influence to Thrace and early Hellenic Greece. Hesiod, who was a Kadmean (i.e., of Egyptian descent), in Works and Days , said that before the Hellenic invasion the Grecian people lived in peace and tranquility and had matriarchal societies. The name Europe comes from Aerope, the daughter of King Catreus, a Cretan.
Thucydides observed that:
"The first person known to us by tradition as having established a navy is Minos. He made himself master of what is now called the Hellenic sea, and ruled over the Cyclades into most of which he sent the first colo- nies, expelling the Carians and appointing his own sons as governors; and thus did his best to put down piracy in these waters, a necessary step to secure the revenues for his own use".
Thus we find that many Cretans also settled much of mainland southern Europe.
The Garamante were Mande speaking people. They wrote the Libyco-Berbers. See:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ I have heard that it was a Tuareg man that successfully deciphered Tifnagh script. Now that might be an interesting avenue to explore their history by their old script.
The ancient writing of this area was called Libyco-Berber. It can not be read using the Berber languages. It was written in the Mande language. You can read more here:
The ancient writing of this area was called Libyco-Berber. It can not be read using the Berber languages. It was written in the Mande language.
If you are going to put forward an idea or opinion, at least cleanse it off contradiction, like say in this case, why bother acknowledging it as "Libyco-Berber" while claiming that said writing cannot be read with the aid of "Berber" languages. I gather you meant to say it was written in Mande script, as opposed to Mande "language". Scripts and languages are not one and same; for instance, multiple languages with respective distinctive grammatical structures can use the same basic script. Otherwise, noting the said contradiction might be a good idea. On the other hand, if it is written in "Libyco-Berber" script, but in Mande language, then a different question arises...
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One of the biggest changes to Egyptology in recent times was the concession by European Egyptologist that Egypt was indeed an African civilization rather than Asiatic.
That's not a concession. It is acceptance of a fact. Facts are not exactly negotiable; you can either *openly* accept it, or *openly* play ignorant of it. You can either live in reality, or live in a fantasy. Either way, a fact remains so...a fact.
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The ancient writing of this area was called Libyco-Berber. It can not be read using the Berber languages. It was written in the Mande language.
If you are going to put forward an idea or opinion, at least cleanse it off contradiction, like say in this case, why bother acknowledging it as "Libyco-Berber" while claiming that said writing cannot be read with the aid of "Berber" languages. I gather you meant to say it was written in Mande script, as opposed to Mande "language". Scripts and languages are not one and same; for instance, multiple languages with respective distinctive grammatical structures can use the same basic script. Otherwise, noting the said contradiction might be a good idea. On the other hand, if it is written in "Libyco-Berber" script, but in Mande language, then a different question arises...
I meant exactly what I said. The generic name for the first inscriptions in North Africa is Libyco-Berber, so I called this writing by the generally accepted name of the writing system instead of Mande writing so people would not be confused.
Since the language it is written in is Mande, I identified it as such. You can not read the Libyco-Berber inscriptions using any of the Berber languages.
If there is confusion on this issue it is within your own mind.
Scripts and languages are not one and same; for instance, multiple languages with respective distinctive grammatical structures can use the same basic script.
You are right aboout this. The Linear Sumerian, Indus Valley, Olmec, and Libyco-Berber writing have identical signs but each inscription must be read in the specific language spoken in the area where the inscription(s) are found.
For example, an Indus Valley text is written in Tamil, while the Olmec text are written in the Malinke-Bambara language.
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^ Don't hijack my thread with these arguments.
What is the latest development into the "Older than Egypt" finds of the Garamante people?
That is what I am trying to find and will post to this thread.
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One of the biggest changes to Egyptology in recent times was the concession by European Egyptologist that Egypt was indeed an African civilization rather than Asiatic.
That's not a concession. It is acceptance of a fact. Facts are not exactly negotiable; you can either *openly* accept it, or *openly* play ignorant of it. You can either live in reality, or live in a fantasy. Either way, a fact remains so...a fact.
Facts require intepretation and it is those intrepretations that are concessions by Europeans.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ Don't hijack my thread with these arguments.
What is the latest development into the "Older than Egypt" finds of the Garamante people?
That is what I am trying to find and will post to this thread.
You can not refer to these people as Garamante. These people who lived in the Western Desert practiced some Egyptian elements but they were not exact copies of the Egyptians. For example, they recognized Seth as a popular leader/god, whereas he was despised by Egyptians.
The Seth inscription is from the Western Desert (see: Rock the Oasis, Archaeology, March 13,2006.
It appears that in ancient times before the rise of Egypt, Seth was worshiped by people in the Sahara. Recently a very interesting inscription has been found that relate to this worship.
The symbols on the engraving are written in the so-called Libyco-Berber writing which is really made up of Mande signs. Using the Vai signs we are able to read the inscriptions in the Malinke-Bambara language.
On the left side we see a figure of a cannine and on the right we have a figure of Seth. Reading the inscriptions from right to left I will decipher the writing.
Under the cannine figure we have: Be tu a ka na or "To exist obedient to the order in joy [with the] Mother".
Reading the inscriptions under the Seth figure from right to left: i lu i gyo fa yo gyo, or " Thou hold upright this divinity of the cult, [our] Father, the vital spirit of the society consecrated to (Seth's) cult".
This figure is important in relation to the Western Sahara and the Seth cult. Michael Rice, in Egypt's Making: The Origin of Ancient Egypt 5000-2000 BC, makes it clear that Seth was the god of the Southern people and that Anubis (the canine god) was the protector of the people of the South.
Since Seth was god of the Southern people it might be best to call these people Kushites???--not Garamante since the Garamante lived in the Fezzan.
What you said is a contradiction. Do what you will, with that fact.
quote: If there is confusion on this issue it is within your own mind.
Want to see what a confusion looks like? Then just read what you wrote.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Since the language it is written in is Mande, I identified it as such.
Let me guess [Assuming that you know the difference between a script and a spoken language], using Mande script, right?
What specific Mande dialect had these ancient "Libyco-Berber" scripts been using as a medium?
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Facts require intepretation and it is those intrepretations that are concessions by Europeans.
"Interpretations" have no bearing on a fact. "Interpretations" goes back to what I said about one's willingness to *openly* accept a fact or otherwise, and henceforth, willingness to live in reality or in delusion. You answered my post as if you didn't understand it.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Scripts and languages are not one and same; for instance, multiple languages with respective distinctive grammatical structures can use the same basic script.
You are right aboout this. The Linear Sumerian, Indus Valley, Olmec, and Libyco-Berber writing have identical signs but each inscription must be read in the specific language spoken in the area where the inscription(s) are found.
For example, an Indus Valley text is written in Tamil, while the Olmec text are written in the Malinke-Bambara language.
Save this gibberish for some newbie sucker; we've already covered this issue before. "Interpret" this, as you will.
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posted
Actually in ancient egypt they never worshipped seth nor any of the other personifications of the Nothing. Seth,Anubis are one of the oldest Zoomorphic sign languages of ancient egypt. That picture of the Saharan Seth/Anubis is of no importance into the origin of Ancient Egyptian mystery system its African Period Whether they where in North,South,East,or West Africa.
Seth, and Anubis both Represent the Desert whether Eastern desert or Western Desert, they represented death,thirst,hunger, and the life of the desert no water no life. They considered the desert life harsh and unfair they shuned it.
I dont see no Pyramids in the Sahara yet but WE still have not investigated the Whole World there could be a Whole Ancient Kingdom that predates Egypt somewhere out there.
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Actually in ancient egypt they never worshipped seth nor any of the other personifications of the Nothing.
Are you sure about that; what do you think Set meant to the Rameside Dynasty?
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Facts require intepretation and it is those intrepretations that are concessions by Europeans.
"Interpretations" have no bearing on a fact. "Interpretations" goes back to what I said about one's willingness to *openly* accept a fact or otherwise, and henceforth, willingness to live in reality or in delusion. You answered my post as if you didn't understand it.
And so, let me give you an example you can perhaps relate to more immediately: I can "interpret" the fact of your existence as saying that you don't exist, or I can choose to acknowledge and accept the fact of your existence. Either way, the fact remains that you exist, whether I choose to accept that *openly* or whether I choose not to. Does that help? I hope so.
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^ doesn't matter since Europeans were delusional at the time about their superiority so their interpretations facts would also be delusional. It is a concession on their part to put aside their delusions.
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^ doesn't matter since Europeans were delusional at the time about their superiority so their interpretations facts would also be delusional. It is a concession on their part to put aside their delusions.
Put it this way: When you are deluding yourself, exactly whom are you conceding to?
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^ They conceded to those that said they were delusional such as the onese that accepted the truth.
I have this book on order: Before Color Prejudice by Frank Snowden.
Appparently has references to a good deal of research on the Garamante people. Hopefully I will be able to get access to copies of that material and I will post it here.
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Where is Alexander buried? - Why Africa?? Is it because the Minoans who were also known as the Garamante??
Alexandria: Many, if not most archaeologist are convinced that Alexander was buried in the city that he founded in Egypt on its northern Mediterranean coast, named for the great ruler. There is considerable ancient material about his funeral in Alexandria, after his body was taken there from Memphis. Other ancient texts refer to various important personalities, including Roman emperors and scholars, who visited his tomb in Alexandria.
The Siwa Oasis: The last theory concerns the story that Alexander the Great asked, while on his deathbed, to be buried at the Ammoneion in the Western Desert Oasis of Siwa, near the temple of the god Amun. This story is told by the historians, Diodoros, Curtius Rufs and Justin, who were not contemporaries of Alexander.
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: All roads lead back to Mande huh Clyde lol.
LOL Indeed!
It's annoying when Winters hijacks acaemically valid threads with his pseudo-historical nonsense about Mande.
Anyway, Osirion I already told you the Garamantes are actually younger than and nowhere near as old or older than the Egyptians, let alone being the ancestors of them.
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^ Intersting - there's an article in TIME magazine called "Older than Egypt" and refers to the Garamante indirectly.
Article:
For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.
More Related Anthropologists on the Front Lines Living with the Desert Secrets of a 2,000-Year-Old Child Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.
The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.
The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.
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Is this area not part of the Garamante regions?
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^ And exactly where in the article you just cited did it say anything about the Garamantes?? Yes the Garamante civilization began in the same area of Libya but only millennia after Egypt! Libya in general does NOT equal Garamante. The Egyptians mentioned since the earliest dynasties mentioned several Libyan peoples that lived to the west such as the Tjemehu and Tehenu. These people may represent either the ancestors of the Garamantes or other relatives, but this not the same as saying they were Garamantes.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And exactly where in the article you just cited did it say anything about the Garamantes?? Yes the Garamante civilization began in the same area of Libya but only millennia after Egypt! Libya in general does NOT equal Garamante. The Egyptians mentioned since the earliest dynasties mentioned several Libyan peoples that lived to the west such as the Tjemehu and Tehenu. These people may represent either the ancestors of the Garamantes or other relatives, but this not the same as saying they were Garamantes.
^ Ah but remember there is not such things as a people called Garamantes in this area of Libya. This is not what they called themselves. It's like the term Haratin, which is also an exonym.
With that in mind, the connection may be more than regional considering the continuity of people in these areas.
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