quote:The genetic relationship between two languages is determined by examining the basic vocabulary of the two languages. When there is systematic correspondence between the two languages in a large number of basic words, such as body parts, lower numerals and natural objects, the existance of a genetic relationship cannot be in doubt.
fero - king ..........................................fari - king pur - king ...........................................bur - king NDam - throne ...................................NDam - throne aam - seize .......................................aam - take this kef - to seize, grasp ...........................kef - to seize, grasp ro - mouth .........................................ro - to swallow sity - proof ........................................seety - to prove neb - basket ......................................ndab - calabash ta tenen - first lands ...........................ten - clay of first humans aar - paradise ....................................aar - divine protection tefne;tefnit - to spit .............................tefnit - to spit kau - elevated, above .........................kaou - heaven diou - five ..........................................diou rom - five set - woman ......................................set - wife kem - black .......................................khem - burnt, burnt black bai - a priestly title .............................bai - father ben ben - oveflow, flood .....................ben ben - overflow, flood bon - evil ...........................................bon - evil bu - place ..........................................bu - place khekh - to fight, struggle .....................khekh - to wage war, war djit - vizier ..........................................djit - guide, leader nag - bull ...........................................nag - cattle mer - love ..........................................maar - passionate love sen - brother ......................................sen - brother sent - sister ........................................san - sister itef - father .........................................itef - father maga - veteran ..................................mag - old person nit, niti - citizen ...................................nit - citizen pe - capital, heaven ............................pey - King's capital maat - justice .....................................mat - justice da - child ............................................da - child iaay(t) - old woman .............................yaay - mother deresht - blood, red ...........................deret - blood ta - earth, land ...................................ta - inundated earth kemat -end of a period, completion .....kematef - limit of something nem - float .........................................temb - float rem - to weap, tears ...........................erem - compassion shopi (Coptic) - transform ...................sopi - transform nen(t) - place where nothing is done, grave ................................................nen - nothingness sa - wise, educated ...........................sa - to teach kuk, kwk - darkness ...........................kwk - darkness atef - a crown of Osiris, judge of the soul...................................................ate - to judge ba - the ram-god ...............................bei - goat nak - ox, bull .....................................nak - cow per - house .......................................per - the wall surrounding the house
Complete Sentence Comparisons:
quote:Example: "a good place has become an evil place" Spanish: un buen lugar se ha convertido en un mal lugar Portuguese: um bom lugar se tornou um mal local
"a good place has become an evil place" Egyptian - Bu nafret su em bu bon Wolof - Bu rafet mel ni bu bon
Egyptian - mer on ef, "he loved" Wolof - maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on es, "she loved" Wolof - maar on es, "she loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on sen, "they loved" Wolof - maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
Egyptian and Wolof Demonstratives (ie > this, that, these, those)
...and a couple more Wolof/Ancient Egyptian comparisons for one to contemplate:
Egyptian................. Wolof kat - vagina............Cott li - vagina (Katt bi is a vulgar term for having sex) top - top of head....bop - top of head ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Thank you for your contribution Wally. What is surprising to me is that this isn't explored further. The natural question most unexposed to pre-conceptions will ask, is why are there so many similarities and if the relationship between these languages has no genetic basis, then what other criteria is involved in establishing one?
The recent Kitchen et al. study on the Semitic languages only used 96 words for comparison to identify cognates. I'm pretty sure the lists that you've introduced in your time here exceeds that. Ehret even states in his Bantu article that one need not be an expert to apply and understand the principles that identify relationships. I will remain conservative until I learn more but this is intriguing.
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The only languages AE is related to in West africa is Chadic languages, Wolof is not Chadic or an Afrasian language. That list is made by an amatuer and should be taken with a bag of salt, it would be nice if a Wolof speaker could confirm the validity of these words, i sense that they are inaccurate same with the Egyptian terms. As example, just taking the first word in the list above Fero , the name Fero/pr-`3 is not Egyptian but Semetic/Caananite and later became the Greek pharaō , AE name for king is Nswt or Ity = lord of the great palace. Also there is no Egyptian word for King that is Pur. If Lamin can speak wolof then maybe he could comment on the validity of these wolof words.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: The only languages AE is related to in West africa is Chadic languages, Wolof is not Chadic or an Afrasian language. That list is made by an amatuer and should be taken with a bag of salt, it would be nice if a Wolof speaker could confirm the validity of these words, i sense that they are inaccurate same with the Egyptian terms. As example, just taking the first word in the list above Fero , the name Fero/pr-`3 is not Egyptian but Semetic/Caananite and later became the Greek pharaō , AE name for king is Nswt or Ity = lord of the great palace. Also there is no Egyptian word for King that is Pur. If Lamin can speak wolof then maybe he could comment on the validity of these wolof words.
why would anyone without the knowledge of a subject choose to challenge it based entirely upon "i sense that they are inaccurate?"
Here is an example of a clear lack of knowledge:
quote: the first word in the list above Fero , the name Fero/pr-`3 is not Egyptian but Semetic/Caananite and later became the Greek pharaō ...
The word Fero is derived from one of the oldest words in the Mdu Ntr and as such has parallels in other African language. The word is "per" or "house" and you can't get anymore African than "per":
per = house per-ao = great house fer-ao = great houses (the plural being formed by changing the "p" to an "f"); it literally means "Great Double-House" pr sutn (pair soo.tan) = palace or literally "royal house"
This chronic insistency on bringing in child-languages (A language that is the result of a previous one(s); descendant) to point out an origin is fascinatingly baffling! It's like saying that "Onofrio" is Italian in origin; totally disregarding the etymology of the word: from the Greek "Onuphrius" which is from the Egyptian "Wnn-nfr" meaning "he-who-is-continuingly-good"...
...more drivel (childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle)...
quote: AE name for king is Nswt or Ity = lord of the great palace.
and so is pur, and biti, and nsubiti, and ferao (fero), and ...
Say, does the word "Thesaurus" ring a bell? It is a good reference point and applies to all languages in illustrating words and their synonyms and antonyms.
In English, for example, there are many ways to say "king";baron,caesar, caliph, crowned head, czar, emperor, gerent, imperator, kaiser, khan, magnate, maharajah, majesty, mikado, mogul, monarch, overlord, pasha, potentate, prince, rajah, rex, shah, sovereign, sultan, tycoon... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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I've always had it that per o meant big house and is not a Canaanitic word. The word for house in Canaanitic is beth (as in alphabet/aleph-beth).
There is a Hebrew word pera` for a warleader. That word is unrelated to per`oh the Hebrew spelling of pharaoh. There is an Arabic variation of pera` that means prince. In Hebrew, the primary denotation of pera` is hair, warlord is the secondary meaning. Para`, to go in front of, is the root for both meanings of pera`.
Josephus the Judean historian informs us that pharaoh is an Egyptian word for king. He knows nothing about it being a word originating in his own Hebrew tongue.
Coptic, the post Pharonic Egyptian language, has pouro for pharaoh. Pouro derives from ouro, a ruling king. Other Coptic words from the root ouro are touro (queen) and metouro (dominion).
quote:There is an Arabic variation of pera` that means prince
there is not a p-sound or letter in arabic. a substitute would be a ba=b which would be ber or bar which would mean land or desert. the closest word to prince is "ameer" I figured the closest word to per-aa is dar-azheem which means great land or can mean in modern times great house because the concept of the kingdom(castles, headquarters,kings and queens) was abhored by most of the arabs with the obvious exceptions of ahlul- saba,nabateans,ghassanids and etc. but these were small compared to the vast majority of arabs while most were structered in tribal chiefdoms headed by a respective elder.
Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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Unfortunately my Arabic skills are lax and true about the p->b thing. We often joke about the Arab "buh" in words with the hard p sound.
My source for an Arabic variation of pera` is Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon which actually prints the Arabic correspondent in Arabic characters which I now transliterate as phare (where ph = f) -- a prince, the head of a family.
Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding I may have caused.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Before we continue with our comparisons of the relationship between Wolof and Egyptian, let us first present a reference comparison of two languages that are officially categorized as Romance languages that descend from the Latin of ancient Rome; Spanish and Portuguese:
Egyptian ...................................................Wolof Aku - foreigner............................................Aku - Creole ba - father...................................................bay - father ka - bull......................................................ekka - bull kat - vagina................................................kata - sexual intercourse ...................................................................katt bi - sexual intercourse (vulgar term) kaw- high, above, on top............................kaw - on top km - complete.............................................kaamiir - complete kof - to snatch............................................kof - to snatch kuk - darkness...........................................kuk - very black mer - to love..............................................mer - to be sad, upset miou - cat...................................................muus - cat na - to, for, above......................................na - at, from, through, by rompe - year..............................................ren - this year sit - chair...................................................siis - chair Tefnut - goddess of spittle.........................tuflit - spittle waat - alone.............................................weet - lonely
b) Budge's hieroglyphic dictionary is probably the most unabridged one you can find outside of a university and it's quite usable.
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: Before we continue with our comparisons of the relationship between Wolof and Egyptian, let us first present a reference comparison of two languages that are officially categorized as Romance languages that descend from the Latin of ancient Rome; Spanish and Portuguese:
Egyptian ...................................................Wolof Aku - foreigner............................................Aku - Creole ba - father...................................................bay - father ka - bull......................................................ekka - bull kat - vagina................................................kata - sexual intercourse ...................................................................katt bi - sexual intercourse (vulgar term) kaw- high, above, on top............................kaw - on top km - complete.............................................kaamiir - complete kof - to snatch............................................kof - to snatch kuk - darkness...........................................kuk - very black mer - to love..............................................mer - to be sad, upset miou - cat...................................................muus - cat na - to, for, above......................................na - at, from, through, by rompe - year..............................................ren - this year sit - chair...................................................siis - chair Tefnut - goddess of spittle.........................tuflit - spittle waat - alone.............................................weet - lonely
b) Budge's hieroglyphic dictionary is probably the most unabridged one you can find outside of a university and it's quite usable.
Wasn't diop senegalese wolof speaker? Surely he couldn't have missed this, what's his take on it?
There must be other senegalese linguist that explored this, which raises the question why wolof and AE are place on different families by language experts? Do they Maybe determine relationship and affinities based on other features than similar words and their meaning? I mean if the words (of both languages) are valid then something obviously stood in the way when time came to group languages, seems like wolof is next to coptic the closest to AE language.
Ehret seems pro-african, how could he miss this him being expert on african languages, he could write a groundbraking paper in this field and thereafter immortalize his name among linguists. What's your theory Wally? Maybe conspiracy? lack of interest? Must be a good reason.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Racisim played a part in what African Language family you belonged to.
Afro Asiatic at the time was thought to be "UN"African. So they had to group Ancient Egypt Into a branch that had non Africans in it.
I mean really how could you claim Ancient Egypt if they were in the Nilo Saharan Branch of languages. It would be harder to tell people that Ancient Egyptians were the only non African dialect in Nilo Saharan. It's easier to say Ancient Egyptians were non African in AfroAsiatic language because you have people that are not African that speaks these languages.
It would be great to see people explore just how much in common is Wolof to Ancient Egypt but this would put the death nail in the African but not "Negro" arguement for Egypt.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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See Diop's Genetic kinship of the language of Pharaonic Egypt to Black African languages which is only available in it's original French edition published in 1977.
At a UNESCO conference decades ago one participant (Sauneron) commented that Diop and Obenga's method is
quote:of considerable interest, since it could not be fortuituous that there was a similarity between the third person singular suffixed pronouns in Ancient Egyptian and in Wolof.
A comparative morphology of Ancient Egyptian and Wolof is in African ethnonyms and toponyms: report and papers of the meeting of experts organized by Unesco in Paris, 3-7 July 1978.
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Wasn't diop senegalese wolof speaker? Surely he couldn't have missed this, what's his take on it?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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aam - seize --------------------------------------------------------- aam - take this aar - paradise --------------------------------------------------------- aar - divine protection Aku - foreigner --------------------------------------------------------- Aku - Creole ba - father --------------------------------------------------------- bay - father ba - the ram-god --------------------------------------------------------- bei - goat bai - a priestly title --------------------------------------------------------- bai - father ben ben - oveflow, flood --------------------------------------------------------- ben ben - overflow, flood bon - evil --------------------------------------------------------- bon - evil bu - place --------------------------------------------------------- bu - place bwr - grand --------------------------------------------------------- bwr - the king. da - child --------------------------------------------------------- da - child dam -grand --------------------------------------------------------- damw - glorified deresht - blood, red --------------------------------------------------------- deret - blood diou - five --------------------------------------------------------- diou rom - five djit - vizier --------------------------------------------------------- djit - guide, leader fero - king --------------------------------------------------------- fari - king itef - father --------------------------------------------------------- itef - father ka - bull --------------------------------------------------------- ekka - bull kat - vagina --------------------------------------------------------- kata - sexual intercourse --------------------------------------------------------- katt bi - sexual intercourse kau - elevated, above --------------------------------------------------------- kaou - heaven kaw- high, above, on top --------------------------------------------------------- kaw - on top kef - to seize, grasp --------------------------------------------------------- kef - to seize, grasp kem - black --------------------------------------------------------- khem - burnt, burnt black kemat -end of a period --------------------------------------------------------- kematef - limit of something khekh - to fight, struggle --------------------------------------------------------- khekh - to wage war, war km - complete --------------------------------------------------------- kaamiir - complete kof - to snatch --------------------------------------------------------- kof - to snatch kuk - darkness --------------------------------------------------------- kuk - very black kuk, kwk - darkness --------------------------------------------------------- kwk - darkness maat - justice --------------------------------------------------------- mat - justice maga - veteran --------------------------------------------------------- mag - old person mer - love --------------------------------------------------------- maar - passionate love mer - to love --------------------------------------------------------- mer - to be sad, upset miou - cat --------------------------------------------------------- muus - cat na - to, for, above --------------------------------------------------------- na - at, from, through, by nag - bull --------------------------------------------------------- nag - cattle nak - ox, bull --------------------------------------------------------- nak - cow ndam - throne --------------------------------------------------------- ndam - throne, glory neb - basket --------------------------------------------------------- ndab - calabash nem - float --------------------------------------------------------- temb - float nit, niti - citizen --------------------------------------------------------- nit - citizen niwt - citizen --------------------------------------------------------- nit - citizen pe - capital, heaven --------------------------------------------------------- pey - King's capital per - house --------------------------------------------------------- per - the wall surrounding the house pur - king --------------------------------------------------------- bur - king rem - to weap, tears --------------------------------------------------------- erem - compassion ro - mouth --------------------------------------------------------- ro - to swallow romet - human, man --------------------------------------------------------- yaram - body rompe - year --------------------------------------------------------- ren - this year sa - son --------------------------------------------------------- sa Baol (son of the Baol) sa - wise, educated --------------------------------------------------------- sa - to teach sen - brother --------------------------------------------------------- sen - brother sent - sister --------------------------------------------------------- san - sister set - woman --------------------------------------------------------- set - wife --------------------------------------------------------- set - grandchild shopi (Coptic) - transform --------------------------------------------------------- sopi - transform sit - chair --------------------------------------------------------- siis - chair sity - proof --------------------------------------------------------- seety - to prove st - spouse --------------------------------------------------------- set - spouse ta - earth, land --------------------------------------------------------- ta - inundated earth ta tenen - first lands --------------------------------------------------------- ten - clay of first humans tefne;tefnit - to spit --------------------------------------------------------- tefnit - to spit Tuf - spit --------------------------------------------------------- tuflit - spittle waat - alone --------------------------------------------------------- weet - lonely watw - elder son --------------------------------------------------------- watw - given succesor yaayt - old woman --------------------------------------------------------- yaay - mother
"a good place has become an evil place"
Egyptian - Bu nafret su em bu bon Wolof ---- Bu rafet mel ni bu bon
Egyptian - mer on ef, "he loved" Wolof ---- maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on es, "she loved" Wolof ---- maar on es, "she loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on sen, "they loved" Wolof ---- maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
Egyptian and Wolof Demonstratives (this, that, these, those)
posted
Apart from the ma and ba which are quite universal, it seems Yoruba has absolutely nothing in common with the Mdu Ntr Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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set - woman --------------------------------------------------------- set - wife --------------------------------------------------------- set - grandchild
to>
set - babe --------------------------------------------------------- set - grandchild
this was found on p706 EWB
...the hits, they just keep coming... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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hey i don't know whats up with the lists, but I have a pic of a white wolf as my desktop background Posts: 517 | From: snake city | Registered: Apr 2006
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Hey Wally,the people who is into the language studies cannot simply ignore this,can you or anyone else invite them to take a look at this? they don't have to come and debate just send them the list and get their feed back.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Hey Wally,the people who is into the language studies cannot simply ignore this,can you or anyone else invite them to take a look at this? they don't have to come and debate just send them the list and get their feed back.
Diop published his work on Egyptian-Wolof back in 1977. Europeans have ignored this list for almost 30 years. There is no reason to assume they will revisit it today.
quote:Originally posted by ackee: Hey Wally,the people who is into the language studies cannot simply ignore this,can you or anyone else invite them to take a look at this? they don't have to come and debate just send them the list and get their feed back.
Diop published his work on Egyptian-Wolof back in 1977. Europeans have ignored this list for almost 30 years. There is no reason to assume they will revisit it today.
.
Precisely! Some influential Western European & Euro-American 'scholars' have a vested interest in perpetuating the myth of White racial superiority; they virtually dominate the field of Egyptology which they founded and which enhances their position to distort reality. For, in their distorted worldview, somehow, Ancient Egypt insinuates racial superiority and it therefore must be portrayed as a White civilization, as absurd as this notion is; an absurdity to which we have all, at one time or another, bought into.
Thus, for us to try to appeal to this tone of thought with facts and logic is a hopeless waste of time! --Ignore Diop for 30 years or ignore him for 300 years!--
We present our historical documents, evidence, etc., to the intelligent reader. Its really that simple. So, let us continue...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ackee: Hey Wally,the people who is into the language studies cannot simply ignore this,can you or anyone else invite them to take a look at this? they don't have to come and debate just send them the list and get their feed back.
Diop published his work on Egyptian-Wolof back in 1977. Europeans have ignored this list for almost 30 years. There is no reason to assume they will revisit it today.
.
Precisely! Some influential Western European & Euro-American 'scholars' have a vested interest in perpetuating the myth of White racial superiority; they virtually dominate the field of Egyptology which they founded and which enhances their position to distort reality. For, in their distorted worldview, somehow, Ancient Egypt insinuates racial superiority and it therefore must be portrayed as a White civilization, as absurd as this notion is; an absurdity to which we have all, at one time or another, bought into.
Thus, for us to try to appeal to this tone of thought with facts and logic is a hopeless waste of time! --Ignore Diop for 30 years or ignore him for 300 years!--
We present our historical documents, evidence, etc., to the intelligent reader. Its really that simple. So, let us continue...
Let's not forget that much of their support comes from the fact that supporters can identify with Egyptians as Caucasians and see support of traditional Egyptological research as an extension of European history.
What is the difference between the method used by obenga(which proves a relationship between egyptian and wolof) and eheret's method which places ancient egypt language with afrasan?
Which is the better method for categorizing languages?
Posts: 96 | Registered: Dec 2007
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What is the difference between the method used by obenga(which proves a relationship between egyptian and wolof) and eheret's method which places ancient egypt language with afrasan?
Which is the better method for categorizing languages?
The study of language, like the study of history, falls within the realm of Social Science and Social Science is heavily imbued with ideology. Contrast this with Applied Science which is virtually void of ideology - who debates whether or not 2 + 2 = 4?
The modern classification of languages began in Western European society. The grouping of "Indo-European" as a separate and distinct group began as an abstract notion of a European family that had to be proven; the "Indo" part could have just as easily been called "Aryo" for Aryan; the Aryans being Iran, India (Hindu), etc. By the same token, the grouping of Niger-Congo also began as an abstract notion to enforce the ideology of a distinct Africa-south of the Sahara!
Ideological reaction to this can also be seen in recent moves by some emotionally scarred people in South Africa who want to change the name "Bantu" into something else because of its negative use during Apartheid...
Afro-Asiatic; Afrasan; Hamito-Semitic are all aberrations of Western European pseudo-social science because:
a) The birth of the Semitic languages was in the environs of modern day Ethiopia
b) The other divisions of this "Afro-Asian" language are also indigenous to Africa!
And were it not for ideology, this phylum would simply be called ie, African;Nilo-Sudanic
Spanish is more widely spoken in the Americas than it is in Spain; but there is no category suddenly sprung up such as "American-Spanish" ... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Wasn't diop senegalese wolof speaker? Surely he couldn't have missed this, what's his take on it?
There must be other senegalese linguist that explored this, which raises the question why wolof and AE are place on different families by language experts? Do they Maybe determine relationship and affinities based on other features than similar words and their meaning? I mean if the words (of both languages) are valid then something obviously stood in the way when time came to group languages, seems like wolof is next to coptic the closest to AE language.
Ehret seems pro-african, how could he miss this him being expert on african languages, he could write a groundbraking paper in this field and thereafter immortalize his name among linguists. What's your theory Wally? Maybe conspiracy? lack of interest? Must be a good reason.
Yes, Diop was a Wolof speaker and of course he wasn't the only Wolof or even African to recognize these affinities but I've said this several times before on Wally's linguistic thesis and I'll say it again...
Of course Wolof and Egyptian share affinities as BOTH are African languages and there are many African languages while not being of the same genetic phylum still possess afinities to each other. These affinities could stem from a recent exchange between said different phyla or could simply be deep-rooted genetic features that harken back to a time when the different phyla were diverging from a common ancestor.
The point is the only reason why they are considered of different phyla is because the affinities are not that close when *all* the linguistic factors are added up. There are a series of test to indicate genetic relationships between languages and whether or not two or more languages are closely related enough to be members of the same phylum or family. Vocabulary and grammar are just a couple of the charactersitics. It's true that in the past Western scholars included their notions of racial classifications on the speakers themselves in the classification of African languages and not solely the languages, but Western scholarship has come a long way from then with linguists like Joseph Greenberg who established African linguistic families and their relationships not only based strictly on the languages themselves as opposed to its speakers but by also employing the same objective techniques used for European and Asian languages! Thus we have the great 4 phyla of Africa: Afrasian, Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo, and Khoisan. Now again, this is not to say that Greenberg's methods are flawless as Diop and other African scholars have shown but that its still has substatian validity. If one were to use examples in Asian languages one can also find close affinities in vocabulary or grammar between East Asian languages of different phyla such as between Thai and Chinese or Mongolian and Korean.
Now I believe Wally's is trying to prove that West Africans descent from Egyptians, however all the evidence merely shows that West Africans share common roots with Egyptians and other East Africans and archaeology has shown these roots to exist in the Sahara. Personally if one were to use the closest language to ancient Egyptian or Coptic one would likely go with To-Bedawi, the language of the Beja.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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What is the difference between the method used by obenga(which proves a relationship between egyptian and wolof) and eheret's method which places ancient egypt language with afrasan?
Which is the better method for categorizing languages?
The study of language, like the study of history, falls within the realm of Social Science and Social Science is heavily imbued with ideology. Contrast this with Applied Science which is virtually void of ideology - who debates whether or not 2 + 2 = 4?
The modern classification of languages began in Western European society. The grouping of "Indo-European" as a separate and distinct group began as an abstract notion of a European family that had to be proven; the "Indo" part could have just as easily been called "Aryo" for Aryan; the Aryans being Iran, India (Hindu), etc. By the same token, the grouping of Niger-Congo also began as an abstract notion to enforce the ideology of a distinct Africa-south of the Sahara!
Ideological reaction to this can also be seen in recent moves by some emotionally scarred people in South Africa who want to change the name "Bantu" into something else because of its negative use during Apartheid...
Afro-Asiatic; Afrasan; Hamito-Semitic are all aberrations of Western European pseudo-social science because:
a) The birth of the Semitic languages was in the environs of modern day Ethiopia
b) The other divisions of this "Afro-Asian" language are also indigenous to Africa!
And were it not for ideology, this phylum would simply be called ie, African;Nilo-Sudanic
Spanish is more widely spoken in the Americas than it is in Spain; but there is no category suddenly sprung up such as "American-Spanish" ...
posted
I'd like to see someone amass a negative case the same way Wally is amassing his positive case with actual examples from the involved languages them- selves, not only vocabulary but even complete sentences as well as demonstratives, phonemes, and verb forms, i.e., elements of grammar.
Until then all opposition is just offhand opinion.
For me the jury's still out as I weigh Sauneron's words
quote: ... it could not be fortuituous that there was a similarity between the third person singular suffixed pronouns in Ancient Egyptian and in Wolof
and the conclusions reached by the UNESCO symposium on the unassailable scholarship undertaken by the two
quote: Although the preparatory working paper sent out by UNESCO gave particulars of what was desired, not all participants had prepared communications comparable with the painstakingly researched contributions of Professor Cheikh Anta Diop and Obenga. There was consequently a real lack of balance in the discussions.
Opinion's are like anuses, everybody's got one but a linguist's opinion is far more valueable than that of someone totally unfamiliar with either language and relying on weak critiques (apparently UCLA pulled Schuh's paper off the internet) biased against Diop and Obenga.
So far I echo the symposium, "a real lack of balance in the discussion" in this thread although posters here can certainly prepare their communications.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Chinese as a Sino-Tibetan language: some basic words in Tibetan and Chinese
It may come as a surprise that Chinese is more related to Tibetan than it is to other East Asian languages such as Japanese and Korean. The genetic relationship between Chinese and Tibetan is determined in the same way, i.e., by examining the basic vocabulary in the two languages. When there is systematic correspondence between the two languages in a large number of basic words, such as body parts, lower numerals and natural objects, the presence of genetic relationship therefore cannot be in doubt.
Old Tibetan / Old Chinese Dog - khyi / khywen Fish - na / nyo Sun - ni / nyet Eye - mig / myok Ear - rna / nyeg Firewood - sing / syen Five - lna / ngo Three - gsum / sem _________________________________________________________ Dept. of Linguistics and Oriental Languages, San Diego State University
aam - seize --------------------------------------------------------- aam - take this aar - paradise --------------------------------------------------------- aar - divine protection Aku - foreigner --------------------------------------------------------- Aku - Creole ba - father --------------------------------------------------------- bay - father ba - the ram-god --------------------------------------------------------- bei - goat bai - a priestly title --------------------------------------------------------- bai - father bal - eye ----------------------------------------------- bot - eye ben ben - oveflow, flood --------------------------------------------------------- ben ben - overflow, flood bon - evil --------------------------------------------------------- bon - evil bu - place --------------------------------------------------------- bu - place bwr - grand --------------------------------------------------------- bwr - the king. da - child --------------------------------------------------------- da - child dam -grand --------------------------------------------------------- damw - glorified deresht - blood, red --------------------------------------------------------- deret - blood diou - five --------------------------------------------------------- diou rom - five (juroom) djit - vizier --------------------------------------------------------- djit - guide, leader fero - king --------------------------------------------------------- fari - king itef - father --------------------------------------------------------- itef - father ka - bull --------------------------------------------------------- ekka - bull kat - vagina --------------------------------------------------------- kata - sexual intercourse --------------------------------------------------------- katt bi - sexual intercourse kau - elevated, above --------------------------------------------------------- kaou - heaven kaw- high, above, on top --------------------------------------------------------- kaw - on top kef - to seize, grasp --------------------------------------------------------- kef - to seize, grasp kem - black --------------------------------------------------------- khem - burnt, burnt black kemat -end of a period --------------------------------------------------------- kematef - limit of something khekh - to fight, struggle --------------------------------------------------------- khekh - to wage war, war km - complete --------------------------------------------------------- kaamiir - complete kof - to snatch --------------------------------------------------------- kof - to snatch kuk - darkness --------------------------------------------------------- kuk - very black kuk, kwk - darkness --------------------------------------------------------- kwk - darkness Lebou - "Those at the stream" ----------------------------------------------- Lebou - Wolof speaking people who live by the sea in Senegal maat - justice --------------------------------------------------------- mat - justice maga - veteran --------------------------------------------------------- mag - old person mer - love --------------------------------------------------------- maar - passionate love mer - to love --------------------------------------------------------- mer - to be sad, upset miou - cat --------------------------------------------------------- muus - cat na - to, for, above --------------------------------------------------------- na - at, from, through, by nag - bull --------------------------------------------------------- nag - cattle nak - ox, bull --------------------------------------------------------- nak - cow ndam - throne --------------------------------------------------------- ndam - throne, glory neb - basket --------------------------------------------------------- ndab - calabash nem - float --------------------------------------------------------- temb - float nit, niti - citizen --------------------------------------------------------- nit - citizen niwt - citizen --------------------------------------------------------- nit - citizen pe - capital, heaven --------------------------------------------------------- pey - King's capital per - house --------------------------------------------------------- per - the wall surrounding the house pur - king --------------------------------------------------------- bur - king rem - to weap, tears --------------------------------------------------------- erem - compassion ro - mouth --------------------------------------------------------- ro - to swallow romet - human, man --------------------------------------------------------- yaram - body rompe - year --------------------------------------------------------- ren - this year sa - son --------------------------------------------------------- sa Baol (son of the Baol) sa - wise, educated --------------------------------------------------------- sa - to teach sen - brother --------------------------------------------------------- sen - brother sent - sister --------------------------------------------------------- san - sister set - woman --------------------------------------------------------- set - wife set - babe --------------------------------------------------------- set - grandchild shopi (Coptic) - transform --------------------------------------------------------- sopi - transform sit - chair --------------------------------------------------------- siis - chair sity - proof --------------------------------------------------------- seety - to prove st - spouse --------------------------------------------------------- set - spouse ta - earth, land --------------------------------------------------------- ta - inundated earth ta tenen - first lands --------------------------------------------------------- ten - clay of first humans tefne;tefnit - to spit --------------------------------------------------------- tefnit - to spit Tuf - spit --------------------------------------------------------- tuflit - spittle waat - alone --------------------------------------------------------- weet - lonely watw - elder son --------------------------------------------------------- watw - given succesor yaayt - old woman --------------------------------------------------------- yaay - mother
"a good place has become an evil place"
Egyptian - Bu nafret su em bu bon Wolof ---- Bu rafet mel ni bu bon
Egyptian - mer on ef, "he loved" Wolof ---- maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on es, "she loved" Wolof ---- maar on es, "she loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on sen, "they loved" Wolof ---- maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
Egyptian and Wolof Demonstratives (this, that, these, those)
posted
Of course Chinese and Tibetan are closely related as members of the same Sino-Tibetan phylum, and if you payed attention I never denied any genetic relation at all between Wolof and Egyptian as both are African languages. My point is using *ALL* the same methods of language classification for Indo-European languages and those of other phyla, overall Wolof and Egyptian are members of different phyla. One can find affinities between Chinese and Thai that are just as similar despite these two languages being members of different phyla. Again, this not to suggest that these languages have no genetic relation at all, but that close relativity are based on a number of factors other than simple vocabulary and grammar.
By the way, I'm sure you know my point is not mere opinion but is based on scholarly evidence and that certainly my points were quite different from those of Diop's opponents who were just old-guard racists. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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5) Prove that the following expressions are NOT genetically/linguistically related:
EGYPTIAN:Bu nafret su em bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil" WOLOF :Bu rafet mel ni bu bon, "a state of good has become a state of evil"
EGYPTIAN:mer on ef, "he loved" WOLOF :maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
EGYPTIAN:mer on es, "she loved" WOLOF :maar on es, "she loved passionately"
EGYPTIAN:mer on sen, "they loved" WOLOF :maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
My reply:
You have to understand the either “neuter” or “genderless” terms, to be able to recognize their counterparts when they appear in gender suffixed or prefixed pronoun forms, as is the case above, with the term “nfr” - which becomes “nfr.t” [as feminine singular]. While some phonological similarity is obviously invoked in certain terms, like the case is between ‘bw” [Egyptian] and “bu” [Wolof], the “underived” or original application of terms must be examined to see if terms like “bw” [Egyptian], which appear to have multiple meanings, were reinvented multiple times [meaning - phonologically similar terms written in the same letters but without any relationship whatsoever] or simply took upon different disguises, with all ultimately converging on a common ancestral basic theme.
I am aware of ’n’ being used as a preposition, an adjective, a suffixed or dependent pronoun amongst its different applications, but not sure how or whether it relates to the term ‘on‘ used in the examples above, given that we are both familiar with the pronoun Egyptian terms [he, she, they] and the verb [loved] in question. If ‘n’ here does relate to ‘on’, then please clarify its grammatical application in the Wolof counterpart, and also please account for “passionately”, which doesn’t appear in the Mdu Ntr counterpart; for instance, is it denoted by some prefix or suffix [perhaps in the term ‘maar‘] or a lone-standing term [as in ‘on‘]. Whatever the case may be, I have a good hunch that it will weaken the seemingly smooth parallelism in the examples, by not repeating that level of parallelism in the substance behind the terms.
While one cannot rule out some level of relationship between the major African super-language phylums [be it through distant common origins or through historic contacts via immigration, trade networks or conflict], which should at any rate be expected and may well explain some similar terms appearing here and there, such links may or may not be strong when the languages in question are *elaborately* studied.
posted
The strongest point in Diop's argument for Wolof and Egyptic bearing a genetic relationship are their lexicons. To that end in his book, Parenté génétique de l’égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines, Diop presents 223 pages of lexical resemblances. I don't expect Wally to reproduce all of that here but the snippets he has shared are a fair example of Diop's comparative word list whether actually Diop's or Wally's very own.
quote: It could be argued that the genetic relationship between Ancient Egyptian and Wolof afforded Diop, a native speaker of Wolof, an insight into the deciphering or translation of of Egyptian hieroglyphics at a level not available to his European counterparts. Hence, Diop's unwavering conviction in his thesis of a Negro origin for ancient Egyptian civilization.
In addition to that one website that promotes Swahili relationships to Egyptic there's a work on another Bantu language, Duala of Cameroun available here in PDF.
Nor is Greenberg sacrosanct. Even he admitted that Niger-Congo-Kordofanian and Nilo-Saharan could possibly be just one phylum instead of two separate phyla (as in Negro-African). A thread criticising Greenberg's methodology might just be not only in order but also eye opening.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Wasn't diop senegalese wolof speaker? Surely he couldn't have missed this, what's his take on it?
There must be other senegalese linguist that explored this, which raises the question why wolof and AE are place on different families by language experts? Do they Maybe determine relationship and affinities based on other features than similar words and their meaning? I mean if the words (of both languages) are valid then something obviously stood in the way when time came to group languages, seems like wolof is next to coptic the closest to AE language.
Ehret seems pro-african, how could he miss this him being expert on african languages, he could write a groundbraking paper in this field and thereafter immortalize his name among linguists. What's your theory Wally? Maybe conspiracy? lack of interest? Must be a good reason.
Now I believe Wally's is trying to prove that West Africans descent from Egyptians, however all the evidence merely shows that West Africans share common roots with Egyptians and other East Africans and archaeology has shown these roots to exist in the Sahara. Personally if one were to use the closest language to ancient Egyptian or Coptic one would likely go with To-Bedawi, the language of the Beja.
I don't believe Wally is trying to prove that West Africans are descended from Egyptians. He is simply pointing out the affinities in the languages of Wolof to Medu Ntr, which conversely would be similar with other languages like Pulaar (Fulani), which is related to Wolof, whom many trace their lineage back to Sudan. It can be noted that the Western Sahara influenced Egypt, therefore some Egyptians could been descended from these West Africans.
The direction of this descent, who influenced who, was not the original notion up for debate as that is another discussion on it's own.
Posts: 455 | From: Tharsis Montes | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote: Ideological reaction to this can also be seen in recent moves by some emotionally scarred people in South Africa who want to change the name "Bantu" into something else because of its negative use during Apartheid
Let me guess. You are an AA and are trying to project your feelings of inadequacy and failure off onto Africans. How pathetic.
How do you know those people are "emotionally scarred"?
Why would people not wanting to be called something they feel is derogatory make them scarred emotionally?
Is anyone else on this planet who refuse to accept derogatory terms "emotionally scarred"?
If your want emotionally scarred, take a look at yourself and all of the invasion theories you're sitting around dreaming up to connect yourself to Ancient Egypt just because you believe that you descend from people who you think have no other historical presence in their existance other than being slaves.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:The genetic relationship between two languages is determined by examining the basic vocabulary of the two languages. When there is systematic correspondence between the two languages in a large number of basic words, such as body parts, lower numerals and natural objects, the existance of a genetic relationship cannot be in doubt.
fero - king ..........................................fari - king pur - king ...........................................bur - king NDam - throne ...................................NDam - throne aam - seize .......................................aam - take this kef - to seize, grasp ...........................kef - to seize, grasp ro - mouth .........................................ro - to swallow sity - proof ........................................seety - to prove neb - basket ......................................ndab - calabash ta tenen - first lands ...........................ten - clay of first humans aar - paradise ....................................aar - divine protection tefne;tefnit - to spit .............................tefnit - to spit kau - elevated, above .........................kaou - heaven diou - five ..........................................diou rom - five set - woman ......................................set - wife kem - black .......................................khem - burnt, burnt black bai - a priestly title .............................bai - father ben ben - oveflow, flood .....................ben ben - overflow, flood bon - evil ...........................................bon - evil bu - place ..........................................bu - place khekh - to fight, struggle .....................khekh - to wage war, war djit - vizier ..........................................djit - guide, leader nag - bull ...........................................nag - cattle mer - love ..........................................maar - passionate love sen - brother ......................................sen - brother sent - sister ........................................san - sister itef - father .........................................itef - father maga - veteran ..................................mag - old person nit, niti - citizen ...................................nit - citizen pe - capital, heaven ............................pey - King's capital maat - justice .....................................mat - justice da - child ............................................da - child iaay(t) - old woman .............................yaay - mother deresht - blood, red ...........................deret - blood ta - earth, land ...................................ta - inundated earth kemat -end of a period, completion .....kematef - limit of something nem - float .........................................temb - float rem - to weap, tears ...........................erem - compassion shopi (Coptic) - transform ...................sopi - transform nen(t) - place where nothing is done, grave ................................................nen - nothingness sa - wise, educated ...........................sa - to teach kuk, kwk - darkness ...........................kwk - darkness atef - a crown of Osiris, judge of the soul...................................................ate - to judge ba - the ram-god ...............................bei - goat nak - ox, bull .....................................nak - cow per - house .......................................per - the wall surrounding the house
Complete Sentence Comparisons:
quote:Example: "a good place has become an evil place" Spanish: un buen lugar se ha convertido en un mal lugar Portuguese: um bom lugar se tornou um mal local
"a good place has become an evil place" Egyptian - Bu nafret su em bu bon Wolof - Bu rafet mel ni bu bon
Egyptian - mer on ef, "he loved" Wolof - maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on es, "she loved" Wolof - maar on es, "she loved passionately"
Egyptian - mer on sen, "they loved" Wolof - maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
Egyptian and Wolof Demonstratives (ie > this, that, these, those)
...and a couple more Wolof/Ancient Egyptian comparisons for one to contemplate:
Egyptian................. Wolof kat - vagina............Cott li - vagina (Katt bi is a vulgar term for having sex) top - top of head....bop - top of head ...
There's indeed a linguistic genetic relationship between Wolof, a Niger-Congo language, and the Ancient Kemite language. A lot of similarities still survive to this day.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
Wolof is very close to the Egyptian language . Kat mean vagina cat mean domestic animal in english .In english the word pussy mean vagina it is also use for cat as pussy cat .In Egyptian the word for penis is Kok .Kok is also use in english as penis . In the ancient ancient world The Egyptian language was the international language of trade thats why you find Egyptian word in native american language,European and west asian language .The Coastal Egyptian city of Canopus was the greatest sea trading city in the mediteranean . The black African city of Canopus was connected with the sea trade of the mediteraneen,red sea,indian ocean,atlantic ocean .Goods from Africa,Asia,Europe passed trough Canopus .Canopus was connected to her sister Egyptian city of Cadiz in Spain . The English language countain thousand of Egyptian words. Can you list some of them for me AmunRa the ultim . Oguijiofo anu in an article on the portuguese Canadian explorer in rasta live wire stated that the english language is the product of an international trading language call pidgin spoken in West Africa,America and Europe .
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote: Originally posted by Akachi:
Tukler.. he has been here for over a decade, and is unwilling to disclose his opinion on the origins of Niger-Congo speakers and their context throughout the African story. What is wrong with that man?!
.
Man, know thyself
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
The strongest point in Diop's argument for Wolof and Egyptic bearing a genetic relationship are their lexicons. To that end in his book, Parenté génétique de l’égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines, Diop presents 223 pages of lexical resemblances. I don't expect Wally to reproduce all of that here but the snippets he has shared are a fair example of Diop's comparative word list whether actually Diop's or Wally's very own.
quote: It could be argued that the genetic relationship between Ancient Egyptian and Wolof afforded Diop, a native speaker of Wolof, an insight into the deciphering or translation of of Egyptian hieroglyphics at a level not available to his European counterparts. Hence, Diop's unwavering conviction in his thesis of a Negro origin for ancient Egyptian civilization.
In addition to that one website that promotes Swahili relationships to Egyptic there's a work on another Bantu language, Duala of Cameroun available here in PDF.
Nor is Greenberg sacrosanct. Even he admitted that Niger-Congo-Kordofanian and Nilo-Saharan could possibly be just one phylum instead of two separate phyla (as in Negro-African). A thread criticising Greenberg's methodology might just be not only in order but also eye opening.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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