posted
hi, What are the best books to comprehensively learn how to reconstruct ancient egyptian words (for example ntr = natjar)? Is EGYPTIAN PHONOLOGY by Carsten Peust helpful in this pursuit? Also. are there any ditionaries of reconstructed egyptian and where could I find these please Thanks Greg Coupe
Posts: 11 | From: Auckland, NZ | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Greg Coupe: hi, What are the best books to comprehensively learn how to reconstruct ancient egyptian words (for example ntr = natjar)? Is EGYPTIAN PHONOLOGY by Carsten Peust helpful in this pursuit? Also. are there any ditionaries of reconstructed egyptian and where could I find these please Thanks Greg Coupe
The answers to the questions that you ask are all contained in the very book that you reference. You, and anyone else can get a good preview of this book at:
Peust, Carsten: Egyptian phonology: an introduction to the phonology of a dead language (Göttingen, 1999)
It's pretty standard stuff -- ask yourself; If you were to or already have studied Latin in high school, how many textbooks did you have in class? One...maybe two?
The best sources for understanding or reconstructing the Mdu Ntr phonetically, outside of Coptic and the "Arabic" of rural Egyptians, would be found in related languages, which are mostly not widely available, such as the Beja language...
For now Peust's book or any of the ones he recommends is sufficient enough...
PS: Ntr = Natjar??? ...only if you want it too...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Your best bet is to learn first the basics of historical comparative linguistics. That will provide you with the tools to reconstruct any language. The problem with mainstream "reconstructions" is that they look to non African languages to reconstruct an African language. It is because of this we have "reconstructions" of nTr as Netcher, when a closer rendetion would be the Bantu word(s) Njora, Tora or Nchora (divine, God).
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Your best bet is to learn first the basics of historical comparative linguistics. That will provide you with the tools to reconstruct any language. The problem with mainstream "reconstructions" is that they look to non African languages to reconstruct an African language. It is because of this we have "reconstructions" of nTr as Netcher, when a closer rendetion would be the Bantu word(s) Njora, Tora or Nchora (divine, God).
Very sound advice... The closest rendition of the Mtau Ntr "Ntr" is the Coptic "Nter" for gods and "Noute" for God/god. The (Mybestguess) pronounciation of "Nter" is en.tchair or the equivalent of "Njer"... A variation of the precise Coptic descendant "Nter" would indeed be "Njora"; both having the same meaning...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
There are two great ways to reconstruct ancient Egyptian phonology which unfortunately modern Egyptologists and even linguists hardly utilize if at all!
The best way is to study the colloquial Arabic dialect of the Fellahin of rural Upper Egypt. The Fellahin dialect of rural Egypt is considered very 'unique' due to unusual nuiances that are not found in more authentic Arabic. Many scholars have deduced that these nuiances are non other than survivals of ancient Egyptian.
The second best way is to study To-Bedawi, the language of the Beja nomads of Egypt. The Beja are believed to be the direct descendants of the Medjay people and linguistically their language is considered a distant branch of the Cushitic subfamily but with many features that bear a resemblance to ancient Egyptian.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
In African languages a word beginning with an 'n' would not have the 'n' pronounced like 'en' or 'un.'
Not correct, but closest for Indo-European speakers, the 'n' is more like 'neh' or 'nuh' but not really because the vowel is so short as to be non-existant.
It's just the buzz or hum of the consonant unless it's followed by an actual vowel rather than another consonant. I.e., NDUGU, ki-Swahili for brother is not pronounced en-doo-goo. It's ndoo-goo. Notice two syllables not three.
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Your best bet is to learn first the basics of historical comparative linguistics. That will provide you with the tools to reconstruct any language. The problem with mainstream "reconstructions" is that they look to non African languages to reconstruct an African language. It is because of this we have "reconstructions" of nTr as Netcher, when a closer rendetion would be the Bantu word(s) Njora, Tora or Nchora (divine, God).
Very sound advice... The closest rendition of the Mtau Ntr "Ntr" is the Coptic "Nter" for gods and "Noute" for God/god. The (Mybestguess) pronounciation of "Nter" is en.tchair or the equivalent of "Njer"... A variation of the precise Coptic descendant "Nter" would indeed be "Njora"; both having the same meaning...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
From the above image text, the word DUA.T is not a semetic borrowing. It is proto-bantu deriving from *duA which means island. In all of the "lands" in the Egyptian Duat were "islands." In Bantu cosmology, stars are seen as "islands" in the "ocean" of the nu/nwn. Thus how the term became associated with stars, and by contrast morning (star).
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I don't see anything there remotely implying dwa.t was Semitic. Can you point out exactly where it is?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: From the above image text, the word DUA.T is not a semetic borrowing. It is proto-bantu deriving from *duA which means island. In all of the "lands" in the Egyptian Duat were "islands." In Bantu cosmology, stars are seen as "islands" in the "ocean" of the nu/nwn. Thus how the term became associated with stars, and by contrast morning (star).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: alTakruri wrote: In African languages a word beginning with an 'n' would not have the 'n' pronounced like 'en' or 'un.' ...It's just the buzz or hum of the consonant unless it's followed by an actual vowel rather than another consonant. I.e., NDUGU, ki-Swahili for brother is not pronounced en-doo-goo. It's ndoo-goo. Notice two syllables not three.
This is all true and important; question is how do you convey this unique expression into English text.
We know that Ndugu is not pronounced 'En.doo.goo" but with a 'tonal N' and that Mbanefo (Nigeria) is also spoken with a 'tonal M' so do we write:
Ndugo - N(african)doo.goo or N(tonal)doo.goo
Mbanefo - M(african)bahn.ay.foh or M(tonal)bahn.ay.foh
also, the Coptic word "Nter" is written:
How do you write the 'N' in an English text?...yup, I think N(African) or N(tonal) could solve this problem...what do you think?
...And Ghanaians pronounce "Nkrumah" as N(tonal)kroo.mah but my Amhara brothers and sisters pronounce it as Nuh.kroo.mah... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
It is already rendered in Latin characters. One just need know the pronunciation rules. To whit I ask, is it Mbahn.ay.foh or is it mba-neh-foh when Mbanefo is spoken?
Since Nkruma isn't an Amharic Semitic word one pays no atention to non-Akan mispronunciations.
But point taken, since Egyptic is Afrisan, as is Amharic, best to let Coptic be the pronunciation guide than non-Afrisan languages -- even though we know Delta dwellers and 'Aswan' denizens had quite different pronunciations in Pharaonic days.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: This is all true and important; question is how do you convey this unique expression into English text.
... Mbanefo (Nigeria) is also spoken with a 'tonal M' so do we write:
...
Mbanefo - M(african)bahn.ay.foh or M(tonal)bahn.ay.foh
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Sorry. I don't see how the "Egyptian word DWA.t" "surviv[ing in the Amharic duwat]" or "with the Egyptian sa" "compar[ing to] the Amharic saw" in any way shape or form reduces to either Egyptic word being borrowed from Semitic.
In the former case there may in fact be a slight intimation for Amharic borrowing from Egyptic while in the latter case there's no more than a comparison of a basic concept word parallel in languages of the same super-phyla.
Considering the age of Egyptic and the youth of Semitic this is not at all suprising, not to me.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gentlemen, again, I mention as I did in another posting that I think the problem isn't the Ṁṫau Ñter so much as it is English!...
Budge is talking about the survival and borrowings of one language from another; a two-way street by the way.
Budge writes: "And it has always seemed to me that some of the aboriginal words of the primitive Egyptians found their way into neighbouring countries, where they still live."
He then proceeds to give examples of some Egyptian words that the Amhara borrowed/inherited from them and still survives in Amharic:
lady - amharic = set <from the Egyptian "St" - woman dwarf - Amharic = dnk <from the Egyptian "ṫeng" - pygmy/dwarf man - Amharic = säw <from the Egyptian "Sa" - man morning - Amharic = T'wat <from the Egyptian "ṫuwat" - morning ----- and I would add... Wosarit - strong woman - in Ṁṫau Ñter survives in Amharic as: ladies : wosasert in wosasert na makwanit - "ladies and gentlemen" - another variation being - "kburat na kburan"... ----- Tu Comprende? Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Since Mdu-Neter script is written without vowels like Afrasian languages including Semitic, how do you know whether there is a vowel to pronounce between two consonants or there is non and you have to pronounce the 'm' or 'n' with a hum??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There are two great ways to reconstruct ancient Egyptian phonology which unfortunately modern Egyptologists and even linguists hardly utilize if at all!
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