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Author Topic: HELP: Naqada pics
alTakruri
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Help!!!

Somebody posted a cgi of pre-dynastic Naqada
in a thread discussing nubia nwb.t

Is it forever lost? I can't find it.

Help!!!

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KING
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alTakruri


I found lots of threads discussing Naqada, but I don't think It's what you want.

If you can tell us what year this thread was made, Then maybe I can look again.

Peace

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alTakruri
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If I knew that I'd've found it already myself.

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Djehuti
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Is THIS what you are referring to??
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alTakruri
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Definately the same handiwork but I seem to remember
a typical African 'chief's" compound complete with a skull
atop a pole.

I dunno, maybe the thread got axed by Sammy or somebody.

Thanks, though.

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alTakruri
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This is what I was talking about but I was wrong
about it being Naqada. Turns out it was at Gebtu
(Koptos), not so far across the river.
Thanks King and DJ for your help!

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alTakruri
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Don't know why the cgi statues are pale when one
oh so similar, found from elswhere, looks like this

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Brada-Anansi
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Sorry and please don't elbow me in the ribs...but If I was a traveller back in the day...I would immediately think I am entering a city full of masterbaters.. [Big Grin] But for real though is that God prior to Min or a totally different God.
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Djehuti
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^ Who knows what deity if any those statues represent since they were from predynastic times. Perhaps it was the god Nefer whom Egyptians say brought forth humanity through his semem by masturbating (?)

Are they even based on any real statuary from the Naqada period?? The closest thing they resemble is this statue Takruri posted.

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^ But obviously the difference seen is that the statue above has his hands to the sides and his penis is not erect but kept at bay by a penis sheath which was a common atire of men during the predynastic period.

By the way, phallic statues and male dolls are pretty common fertility symbols in Africa.

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Brada-Anansi
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Hey is that a one pc head-gear that extends all the way to his mid-section Ewok-style from Star Wars... or a skull cap with a very long beard??.
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alTakruri
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Yeah, strangers must of thought Gebtu
was Circle Jerk City if that cgi is accurate.

We know nearly all that characterizes Egyptian
civilization first began brewing a good 3000 years
prior to the unification of the Two Lands
and
can be found locally, upriver, or to the nearby
west.

Min appears local and maybe a little Eastern Desert in origin.
 -

That's one of the predynastic Min statues Petrie
found when he rummaged around Koptos (now I
know why the cgi had them pale).

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Brada-Anansi
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Hey Altakruri!! look at mins belt and look at the cgi..don't they look the same? maybe that's pre Min.
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alTakruri
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Good lookin' Bru 'Nansi! As far as I can make out that's definetly Min.

 - =  - +  -

The cgi is a composite of the Petrie find with missing head and shoulders
supplemented from the likes of the contemporaneous Mac Gregor find.

Looks like the original colossus had a removable penis. Was it used as
a dildo to impart the netjer's male potency to females who then transferred
the blessing to their male partners?

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Djehuti
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^ You are correct that Min originated from the Eastern Deserts where he known in dynastic times as Lord of that region. But do the statues really represent Min? I don't think Min is the only phallic god.

Also are there any corresponding vulvic female statues? I know that smaller doll sized female figurines were common in predynastic times, but I believe there vulvic figures carved into the rocks of the desert.

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Brada-Anansi
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Ah..for a seemingly important city I knew squat about it.

General Info:

History
In ancient Egypt, Qift, known then as Gebtu, was an important center for administration, religion, and commerce, being the chief city of the fifth Upper Egyptian Nome of Harawî (Two Hawks). From Qift and Qus, trading expeditions heading for the Red Sea and many mining expeditions into the Eastern Desert left the Nile Valley. Gebtu was at the starting-point of the two great caravan routes leading to the coast of the Red Sea, the one toward the port Tââou (Myoshormos), the other more southerly, toward the port of Shashirît (Berenice).

Under the native pharaohs, the whole trade of southern Egypt with the Red Sea passed over these two roads; under the Ptolemies as well as in Roman and Byzantine times, merchants followed the same roads for purposes of barter at the coasts of Zanzibar and in Southern Arabia, India, and the Far East.

Min-Amen-ka-Mut-ef, Gebtu male fertility deity - LouvreGebtu was the most important religious center in the area. Its principal male deity was Min, a sky-god whose symbol was a thunderbolt. [1] He became a male fertility deity, [2], and also was regarded as the male deity of the desert region to the east.

Isis nursing her infant son - LouvreHis cult rose to prominence in the Middle Kingdom. At that time, he became associated with Horus as the deity, Min-Horus. Later, he was fused with Amen in the deity Min-Amen-ka-Mut-ef, as "Min-Amen-bull of his mother" (Hathor-Isis).

Isis (Hathor-Isis) and her infant, Horus, were the deities connected with Gebtu, named Coptos during the Greco-Roman period, probably due to the reinterpretation of the Two Hawks of the Nome, Harawî, standard as Min and Horus.

Gebtu, once politically important, especially under the eleventh dynasty, was overshadowed by Thebes. It recuperated its prominence under the Antonines; it was the base camp of Legio III Cyrenaica, or at least one of its subunits. It rebelled, but soon was captured in 292 by Diocletian after a long siege and almost destroyed, but soon recovered its former standing.

In the 6th century, Qift was called by the Roman name, Justinianopolis. This century is considered the end of the Classical Age in Europe where the Dark Ages followed.

The Christian see was suffragan of Ptolemais in Thebais Secunda. Five bishops are known (Lequien, II, 607): Theodorus, a partisan of Meletius; Phoebammon in 431; Sabinus in 451; Vincent, author of the "Canonical Solutions", preserved in an Arabic translation and highly esteemed by the Copts; Moyses, who wrote the panegyric of Vincent.

Under the Muslim caliphs and the sultans, Qift remained one of the chief cities of Upper Egypt. In 1176, its Christian inhabitants raised the standard of revolt against the Muslims, but were suppressed promptly by Al-Adil, brother of Saladin, who hanged nearly 3,000 Copts on the trees around the city. In the 13th century, there still were numerous monasteries around the city. Qift was ruined in the 16th century by the Ottomans.


Archaeology
Remains of three temple groups surrounded by an enclosure wall were located during the excavations of W. M. Flinders Petrie in 1893-1894, and later, by Raymond Weill and Adolphe Joseph Reinach in 1910-1911.

The undecorated northern temple of Min and Isis was the work of an official named Sennuu on behalf of Roman occupiers during the Ptolemaic kingdom, namely, Ptolemy II Philadelphus ruling from 281 BC to 246 BC.

This northern temple has some later additions by Ptolemy IV Philopator ruling from 221-205 BC. He was the son of Ptolemy III and Berenice II of Egypt and was the fourth pharaoh of the Ptolemaic Egypt, when the decline of the Ptolemaic kingdom began. More additions were added by Julio-Claudian emperors of Rome, Caligula, and Nero.

This temple stands on the site of earlier Ancient Egyptian temple structures, those of the visor to Mentuhotep IV who became Amenemhat I and his son, Senusret I, both of the twelfth dynasty, and Thutmose III of the eighteenth dynasty. The remains of a chapel of Osiris, erected by Amasis II of the twenty-sixth, also were found near the northern temple.

At the site of the later middle temple built by Romans during the Ptolemaic kingdom, blocks of an earlier structure by Senusret I and a gate of Thutmose III, with additions probably made by Osorkon II of the twenty-second dynasty, were found. This later middle temple was built during the Ptolemaic kingdom by Ptolemy II Philadelphus, with minor additions by members of the Julio-Claudian dynasty of Rome, Caligula, Claudius, and Trajan.

At the site of the southern temple, are the gates of Nectanebo II of the thirtieth dynasty, who was the last native king of Egypt. He was placed on the throne by a Spartan king and lost a conflict with the Persians, who then overtook Egypt.

Other structures found at the site include a set of stelae, now known as the Koptos Decrees. These stelae date to the Sixth and Seventh Dynasties, with copies of royal decrees from the pharaohs concerning the temple and its personnel. The name by which the stelae are known reflects the much later Greek name for the city, Coptos or Koptos however.

A chapel of Ptolemaic dynasty pharaoh Cleopatra VII and her son, Ptolemy XV Caesarion, has been found at the site as well. These rulers of Ancient Egypt for six hundred years were not native, but of Greek origin. Without many changes, however, they adopted the culture and religious practices of the country they occupied. Cleopatra even learned the ancient Egyptian language, which never had been used by these rulers. The Greeks sought to find parallels to their own religious beliefs and would describe the Egyptian deities as related to their own.

Built even later, after the conquest by the Romans in 30 AD, gates associated with the Roman emperors Caligula and Claudius are documented at the site. The Romans also continued the religious traditions of Ancient Egypt, adopting some completely, and drawing parallels (similar to the Greek rulers) for others.

Northeast of Qift, at the modern village of El-Qala, the Roman emperor Claudius also built a small temple and dedicated it to Min, Isis, and Horus.

And to think that this is where the Copts got their name from..Gebtu>Qubt>Copts.

www.answers.com/topic/qift

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alTakruri
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DJ

Why wouldn't the colossi be of Min when
1 - they have the dick-in-hand Min posture
2 - they're from Gebtu, Min's cult center?

What is your alternate proposal and evidence to
contradict what Egyptology has had to say about
this? Maybe you have a worthy breakthrough new
paradigm?

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Djehuti
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^ I never said it wasn't Min. I just questioned how sure they are that it was him. While Min was probably the most popular phallic god during dynastic times, I'm sure he was not the only one. If it was found in his cult center then it probably is him depicted though I can see some differences he went in appearance to his more familiar form in dynastic times.

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Shady Aftermath
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:


Looks like the original colossus had a removable penis. Was it used as
a dildo to impart the netjer's male potency to females who then transferred
the blessing to their male partners?

Very strange!

Why would a man ever want to take another man's "potency" or whatever?

Care to explain further please.

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alTakruri
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Any live man with a dead dick or blank pistol
certainly wants restored potency, to be rock
hard and shoot torrents of impregnating jit
that thrills a real women as it fills her cup.

This is not at all like the New Guinea suckers.

We're talking a stone turned into an object of
worship not about two human males. The idol is
a physical/psychological/religious symbol for
male potency. Some men are on the lookout for
heightened potency and some women want more
virility from their men.

Any 'sympathetic magic' due to propitiating the
Min idol would essentially equal a 'viagra placebo'
or 'invitrio insemination.'

Understand however, I don't know how Min worship
was conducted or to what use the Min idol was put
to. I offered a question from an observation.

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Wally
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 -

Hey you guys, with all that text surrounding the figures, maybe even helped by this image being seen in a clearer manner - The Text I mean...wouldn't it prove extremely helpful and enlightening to simply read what it's all about...all you need is a hieroglyphic dictionary and some time...
[Cool]

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JujuMan
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^ If you don't mind, please recommend a hieroglyphic dictionary.

I have that "Middle Egyptian" book by Allen and I've attempted to get into it a few times but failed (got bored after a few pages). The problem with learning hieroglyphs is that it appears to be like a programming language (using symbols) so the learning curve is quite steep at the beginning, though I imagine once you have down your syntax and semantics it's smooth sailing from there.

--------------------
state of mind

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by TormentedSoul88:
^ If you don't mind, please recommend a hieroglyphic dictionary.

I have that "Middle Egyptian" book by Allen and I've attempted to get into it a few times but failed (got bored after a few pages). The problem with learning hieroglyphs is that it appears to be like a programming language (using symbols) so the learning curve is quite steep at the beginning, though I imagine once you have down your syntax and semantics it's smooth sailing from there.

Yes, it may at first seem tedious, but its simply dedicating yourself to something you want to know, of course you might not learn right off the bat, but simply reading, it takes time to actually understand.

It's better this way because then you'll be familiar with the texts after a few reads.

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by TormentedSoul88:
^ If you don't mind, please recommend a hieroglyphic dictionary...


You already have access to the most unabridged Hieroglyphic dictionary available and written by E.A. Budge. I have made It available on my own Office Live space:

http://cid-6075ca909f8a8375.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Ancient%20Egypt/Hieroglyphic%20Dictionary

Download these two zip files; unzip them; and view and use the dictionary with your PDF reader...

a) Budge's hieroglyphic dictionary is the equivalent of Merrian-Webster's unabridged English dictionary

b) Allen's book on Middle Egyptian is the equivalent of an expanded version of Budge's, Erman's, etc., Egyptian Grammar - the dictionary portion is a Reader's Digest of Budge's dictionary...

Don't swallow the hype and sophistry that somehow Budge's work is outdated; that's b.s.:

Rn = "name" in Budge, Allen, Faulkner, etc., etc.
A dictionary can only be considered to be outdated if it doesn't contain all of the new, contemporary words! Viewed in this light, all of the 'newer' dictionaries are outdated in that they don't contain even half of the words collected by Budge...

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Wally
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Using Budge's dictionary

Just casually glancing at this text;

a) a proper name enclosed in the cartouche is cropped where it is not readable

b) I see (casually) some words like "n amen" , now "na amen" means 'in secret" or it could mean "of The Hidden One" depending on the context of the words that follow "r, eir f..."

c) the word "Sa" is there also in more than one instance

so how do you use Budge's dictionary?"

EXAMPLE...

a) Find this word on the illustration - note that it is written from right to left (read a basic book on reading hieroglyphics ) - reverse the order

 -

b) Now look it up in the dictionary; under "Ankh"

 -

-- Onkh = life and the other word means "gift, present"...

...now, continue on...

[Cool]

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alTakruri
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Not sure what Amun-Min and Senwosret can reveal
about pre-dynastic Min and his apparently removable
jimmy but here's a little more context for to translate.

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Djehuti
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^ No, the deity above was not a composite of Amun and Min but was only Min. Min throughout dynastic times has always been portrayed as wearing a double plume on his head as well as holding a flail in one of his hands. This is one reason why I questioned if the predynastic Naqada statues really depicted Min or some other deity because of the differences in appearance. If the Naqada statues really do depict Min, then obviously deity underwent some changes in appearance. for one, his beard is plaited and obviously the plumes and flail were added.
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alTakruri
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One should research before pronouncing error.
You failed to research and so deem opinion as fact.


What house of supplication is the relief in?

Who is on the left?

Who is on the right?

What dynasty is it?

Who personally and of what ancestry are the dynasty's founder(s)?

Which netjer did they promote and establish?

Come back and tell me no after you answer the above.
Until then go read study and learn so to speak knowlege.

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Djehuti
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^ Discussing the context of that one depiction alone which I provided does not change anything I said. Since early dynastic times, almost all depictions of Min show him wearing double plumes on his head and holding a flail. Double plumes are not only charactersitic of the god Amun but several other deities as well. One of the earliest epithets of Min was 'Lord of the Plumes'. In fact, evidence suggests the opposite-- that Amun's double plumes were derived from Min! Besides, Amun's plumes were part of the headdress he wore whereas Min wore his plumes directly on his hair. This likely reflected the style that local inhabitants of the Eastern Desert wore. As for the flail, such an accessory had nothing to do with Amun. There were various deities that wielded the flail, but it had special signficance with Min who is depicted in a peculiar way holding it with his left hand behind his back, his right hand supporting the neck while the right arm forms an angle with it. It is believed this represents the constellation Orion and/or the glyph that symbolizes him. During festivals dedicated to him, the men would wet the tips of the flail in water and then thrash them back and forth as a ritual symbolizing the power of ensemination.

While it's true composite forms of the god Amun were common, such a popular trend took place during the 18th dynasty. The depiction I posted came from the 11th dynasty along with the pharaoh Senwosret. As for the large predynastic statues that supposedly portray Min, the closest that comes to them in dynastic times would be these small statuettes:

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alTakruri
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All well and good but doesn't answer any but two
of the posed questions, which when answered could
hint at what I believe was going on at that time
but assuredly lay out which netjer was prominent.

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Brada-Anansi
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You know what's funny over on the other-side folks are comparing azzsz ancient and modern over here we have ancient dicks
maybe we should put them together. [Big Grin]

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Brada-Anansi
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Something I found on Explorer's blog..I have alway assumed that the penis sheet was a Libyan thing untill low and behold it is found in Pwnt and in the city of Gebtu,and also in the Minoan captian of the Blacks painting.
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From Explorer"s blog

The first figure immediately following the kneeling beardless [Phillip's "Nubians"] figures on the top half of the image above, appears to have no goatee, and has a relatively more rounded and short [light toned] wig(?). On the bottom half of the same image, again the first personality immediately following the four kneeling figures, i.e. the bearded ones, sports a relatively short & round wig(?) that is distinct from both the kneeling figures preceding him from the right hand side, and the figures following him, who sport longer wigs (hair) with head bands; moreover, he is wearing a loincloth-garment that is stylistically distinct from those of the figures behind and in front of him, and has a goatee that is relatively shorter than those of said figures to his either side. His distinctive "short" goatee also sets him apart from the aforementioned standing figure immediately above him, who sports no goatee. It's also necessary to note the stylistic differences between the last three bearded standing figures on the bottom section/register of the image, from the left hand side; the one on the far left, holding the leash of a baboon [we will later examine the exotic animals], has a loincloth-garment that sports a two-pieced penis-sheath that we generally see on "Puntite" figures in other images, but the two fellows immediately preceding him, sport "one piece" penis-sheaths. Is this just a matter of garment variety in 'Pwnt', a matter of social-class distinctions, or a matter of ethnic distinction? This deserves to be examined.
[URL=http://The Kmt-famed Pwnt ("Punt"): Exactly where was it located! ]web page[/URL]
Not quite sure why my attempt a posting some links keeps failing.. [Confused]

But my question is could this be one and the same people? and not to muddle things but this also confirmed the Bibical table of nations if they are indeed the same folks..could the original home of the Gebitites and the Libyans be Pwnt?

OH!! one more thing concerning the Minoan Captain of the Blacks thing...according to Bernal Min is also connected to Minoans whom he calls uncomfortably dark....no Penis sheet but they are indeed uncomfortably dark
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Djehuti
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^ I don't know what gave you the thought that penis sheaths were associated with only Libyans, when it was first and foremost associated with Egyptians especially during predynastic and early dynastic times. But yes the style of loin cloth and accessory penis sheath was also found in contemporary Canaanite sites as well as Minoan sites. There is a book I read that points to a connection between these two latter cultures that stems from Egypt. I will eventually cite it here soon.
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Brada-Anansi
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Djehuti
quote:
I don't know what gave you the thought that penis sheaths were associated with only Libyans
Maybe because everytime I read about Penis sheaths in ancient Africa Libyans are mentioned going back to pre-dynastic times espicially in the northern most part of Kemet,It is only in this thread that I found out the importance of the town of Gebtu and it's connection to the Penis sheath wearing Min,that did set off some alarm bells...but I let it slide and I mis-took the double penis sheaths as part of the garnment on the Puntites..but all in all it was a revelation to me as it helps connect some dots...the question now on my mind is...was Punt the ultimate home land of that particular group of Libyans and Gibtites..or did they started North and migrated south?...for however that turns for it we must look at the entire Nile and beyond even past the Great Lakes land of the gods to the South and west to the Sahara..  -
From Punt to the Greek Isles you^ came along way..

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

'OH!! one more thing concerning the Minoan Captain of the Blacks thing...according to Bernal Min is also connected to Minoans whom he calls uncomfortably dark....no Penis sheet but they are indeed uncomfortably dark

Co-signing Bernal's ''uncomfortably dark'' remark, it's funny but so true. Why is there never any mention about the Africanity of the early Minoans except for a few scattered snippets here and there, comparing them to neolitic Libyans?
The same thing goes for the African features noted in Neolithic Balkan and portugal. Whenever something is mentioned, its usually vague, you don't know how large these settlements were, the number of the people involved, who they have the most affinity with in mainland Africa, how heterogenous they were, when the replacement started etc etc.

Perhaps the Natufians are somewhat of an exception. Prolly because Neolithic Israel is comfortably far away from Europe to make them corfortably dark

Kalonji

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Djehuti
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^ I don't know about Bernal but I believe there are many whites who would find the thought of Natufians or any peoples in the "Holy Land" being 'quite dark' to be uncomfortable even though Southwest Asia is right next to Africa. If the Greek islands separated by seas aren't 'safe' from black African influence then why should the 'Holy Land' be?
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Maybe because everytime I read about Penis sheaths in ancient Africa Libyans are mentioned going back to pre-dynastic times espicially in the northern most part of Kemet,It is only in this thread that I found out the importance of the town of Gebtu and it's connection to the Penis sheath wearing Min,that did set off some alarm bells...but I let it slide and I mis-took the double penis sheaths as part of the garnment on the Puntites..but all in all it was a revelation to me as it helps connect some dots...the question now on my mind is...was Punt the ultimate home land of that particular group of Libyans and Gibtites..or did they started North and migrated south?...for however that turns for it we must look at the entire Nile and beyond even past the Great Lakes land of the gods to the South and west to the Sahara..  -
From Punt to the Greek Isles you^ came along way..

LOL I think you're going to have a hard time using penis sheaths to track down any migrations in Africa, considering that such feature of clothing is found throughout so many peoples in Africa and its presence in predynastic Egypt can only suggest a common prehistoric origin in immemorial times. Indeed, the penis sheath is used by a number of cultures in tropical climates around the world. I don't know what the sheath has to do with Gebtu or Min though, since it was found throughout predynastic Egypt.
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Djehuti

quote:
LOL I think you're going to have a hard time using penis sheaths to track down any migrations in Africa, considering that such feature of clothing is found throughout so many peoples in Africa and its presence in predynastic Egypt can only suggest a common prehistoric origin in immemorial times. Indeed, the penis sheath is used by a number of cultures in tropical climates around the world. I don't know what the sheath has to do with Gebtu or Min though, since it was found throughout predynastic Egypt.
Maybe but how many are those asscioated with a Penis Sheath wearing God called Min?..look at it this way if my guess is right,and the God Min came up from the Pwnt/Great Lakes area as just one of the ethnic group that populate Kmt..some built or settled in a town called Gibtu the major center of Min worship in pre dynastic times. others travelled north-west to Libya and some found their way to the Northern most part of Kmt and and finally jump the Med. to the islands after-all look at another God..Bes.. who travelled to Kmt from central Africa to Kmt the Levant and through-out the Mediterranean both north and south and may have even be the inspiration for the God Pan, and other thing not all Kemities were penis sheath wearers..as other ethnic groups were present as well.
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuty:
^ I don't know about Bernal but I believe there are many whites who would find the thought of Natufians or any peoples in the "Holy Land" being 'quite dark' to be uncomfortable even though Southwest Asia is right next to Africa. If the Greek islands separated by seas aren't 'safe' from black African influence then why should the 'Holy Land' be?

I think mainly because of the bible itself. We all know where the bible grouped the Canaanites.
The many scattered remarks of Cushites and other descendants of Cham throughout the bible, who were both indigenous Southwest Asians and travelers from Africa, kind of warmed them up to the idea that blacks were indeed present in Asia. Also, whites (<-- meaning only those that find themself feeling uncomfortable entertaining the thought) who are knowledgeable about the bible often have no trouble admitting that the Canaanites might have been related to blacks because of their pagan beliefs, and other qualities they deem inferior like for example the fact that they had lost so many battles according to the bible. There is no doubt in my mind, that had they had a better reputation, there would have been alot more resistance to the idea. Kind of like how the first discoverers of the Natufians had no trouble noting their ''negroid'' features because they thought they were Cannibals. It wouldn't surprise me if such a position wouldn't have been taken so easily if they knew about the accomplishments that people would attribute to them later.

Another reason why I think it wouldn't make them uncomfortable, are at least LESS uncomforable despite their presence in the ''holy land'' is because, according to the bible, mixing with Canaanites and Cushites was looked down upon. Whether this was because of their skin color or pagan beliefs or a combination is not discernable from the scriptures.

Kalonji

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalonji:

I think mainly because of the bible itself. We all know where the bible grouped the Canaanites.
The many scattered remarks of Cushites and other descendants of Cham throughout the bible, who were both indigenous Southwest Asians and travelers from Africa, kind of warmed them up to the idea that blacks were indeed present in Asia. Also, whites (<-- meaning only those that find themself feeling uncomfortable entertaining the thought) who are knowledgeable about the bible often have no trouble admitting that the Canaanites might have been related to blacks because of their pagan beliefs, and other qualities they deem inferior like for example the fact that they had lost so many battles according to the bible. There is no doubt in my mind, that had they had a better reputation, there would have been alot more resistance to the idea. Kind of like how the first discoverers of the Natufians had no trouble noting their ''negroid'' features because they thought they were Cannibals. It wouldn't surprise me if such a position wouldn't have been taken so easily if they knew about the accomplishments that people would attribute to them later.

So in other words, you think some racist whites try to put their feelings of blacks in the 'Holy Land' at ease by Eurocentric doctrine #8: IF IT WAS NOT WHITE, AND ITS GREATNESS IS UNDENIABLE, THEN IT MUST BE DEPRECATED IN SOME WAY. So what about the Egyptians? They were never conquered by the Israelites and neither were the Kushites yet both groups ruled over or incorporated Israel under their empires. Also, the Israelites were very mixed with Egyptian, Canaanite, and other black ancestry and that is considering they were quite dark to begin with and NOT white. Since whites were considered descendants of Japheth, not Shemites. And what are we to make of those ignorant whites who deny blacks were present in the Bible at all??

quote:
Another reason why I think it wouldn't make them uncomfortable, are at least LESS uncomforable despite their presence in the ''holy land'' is because, according to the bible, mixing with Canaanites and Cushites was looked down upon. Whether this was because of their skin color or pagan beliefs or a combination is not discernable from the scriptures.
LOL That is another lie conjured up by white supremacists. The Bible makes it clear that mixing with any foreigners regardless of color is risky in that it could inject foreign practices that could undermine Israelite culture and especially religious faith. The later Iron Age Philistines of the Agean, the Persians, and of course the Greeks were all white but all were looked on with disdain by the Israelites because of their pagan beliefs and "strange" customs including being uncircumcised. On the contrary, the (black) Kenites were favored not only as close allies but as the purveyors of Israelite religion through Zipporah, Moses' wife and her father Jethro. Many scholars think Moses was first initiated into the rights of Yahweh through his wife and father-and-law. Let us not forget the many other tribes who were assimilated by the Israelites including Canaanite tribes.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Maybe but how many are those asscioated with a Penis Sheath wearing God called Min?..look at it this way if my guess is right,and the God Min came up from the Pwnt/Great Lakes area as just one of the ethnic group that populate Kmt..some built or settled in a town called Gibtu the major center of Min worship in pre dynastic times. others travelled north-west to Libya and some found their way to the Northern most part of Kmt and and finally jump the Med. to the islands after-all look at another God..Bes.. who travelled to Kmt from central Africa to Kmt the Levant and through-out the Mediterranean both north and south and may have even be the inspiration for the God Pan, and other thing not all Kemities were penis sheath wearers..as other ethnic groups were present as well.

Well I never said "all" Kemites (men of course) wore penis sheaths, but that clothing was very common to Egypt let alone other parts of Africa. I don't know how you could attribute that one thing to one area or another of Africa let alone the Great Lakes Region. Besides, the god Min was Lord of the Eastern Desert and his features including head wear etc. associate him with ethnic groups of that area. Also, the purpose of a penis sheath was to prevent unwanted erections and basically purposes of modesty. Min as a phallic god had usually had his 'little man' standing out. I don't know what the Greek god Pan has to do with Bes, Min, or anything here.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuty:
what about the Egyptians? They were never conquered by the Israelites and neither were the Kushites yet both groups ruled over or incorporated Israel under their empires.

What about them? I'm not sure how it relates to my position to make it a counterexample. I was just saying that biblical examples of constant canaanite defeat along with their ''pagan'' beliefs could've led to the lower appreciation of canaanite culture and therefore, they (bible readers) had less trouble admitting they could've been related to blacks. Your example I think supports my position in reverse, which is that because of the greatness of the Egyptians, a lot of people have a hard time believing that they could've been blacks (Hammer et al, 1940-2010, Nazi germany).

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuty:
Also, the Israelites were very mixed with Egyptian, Canaanite, and other black ancestry

Regardless of whether this ^ is discernable from the archaological record in Lachish, or whether or not those crania are representative for Isreal as a whole, the bible is pretty clear in frowning down upon canaanite admixture, and it is this source that the whites I speak of, use. I suppose the admixture you speak of, where a substantial admixture could've accurred is the exodus. Yet as I've said above, in the head of a lot of whites (Hammer et al), this biblical account of admixture was not admixture with blacks, but rather one of middle easterners amongst eachother. They're quite fond of using the fact that the Hebrews according to the bible resided in lower Egypt.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuty:
and that is considering they were quite dark to begin with and NOT white.

If you mean dark as in modern day persians, sephardim, and not like northwest Europeans, then yes, I agree. If not, then I guess we are in disagreement, I'm not a proponant of black Hebrews.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuty:
And what are we to make of those ignorant whites who deny blacks were present in the Bible at all??

Probably something similar we make of people who think aliens gave the Egyptians their knowlegde, or the ones that speculate away about the non masculine posture of Menkaura's wife we discussed earlier.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuty:
LOL That is another lie conjured up by white supremacists. The Bible makes it clear that mixing with any foreigners regardless of color is risky in that it could inject foreign practices that could undermine Israelite culture and especially religious faith.

Then what do you make of Miriam repeatedly calling moses' wife a ''Cushi'', when she complained to Moses about marrying her, despite her being the daughter of a priest named Jethro who resided in the vicinity of Gods mountain? What do you make of Gods subsequent punishment? Clearly if it was just because of Zipporahs ''pagan'' beliefs, her viewpoint would've been in line with what God commanded and such a punishment wasn't warrented right? Not saying Miriams potentially rascist beliefs were representative of all Hebrews, just saying that we shouldn't be so quick to label those potentially rascist views of hebrews found in the bible as ''lies by white supremacists''.

Kalonji

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Djehuti
quote:
I don't know what the Greek god Pan has to do with Bes, Min, or anything here.
The Egyptian connection

Anyone seriously interested in ancient Greece cannot ignore Martin Bernal's recent earth-shaking re-examination of the Egyptian and Near-Eastern origins of Greek culture. The two volumes of Black Athena that have appeared so far (1987 and 1996) provide the best point of entry currently available into Greek prehistory, as well as painting an all-too-sorry picture of academic Eurocentric classicism in recent centuries. His work has served to restore the reputation of classical writers such as Herodotus, who took it for granted that Greek religion derived directly from that of the Egyptians.

In particular, for example, he links the early cult of Athena in Boeotia to that of the Egyptian goddess Neit, and Athena's struggles with Poseidon with those between Neit and Seth. He also argues convincingly that Min, a bull-god closely associated with Amon, regarded by the ancients as the Egyptian Pan, was the focus and origin of the Cretan bull cult.
http://www.widdershins.org/vol5iss3/03.htm.

Bernal intends to devote Volumes 3 and 4 of his remarkable work specifically to mythology and religion, and judging from the first two volumes, we can expect over the next decade to be given a much richer understanding of the roots of Greek religion, in traditions that went back thousands of years before Greek history began
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All the Above seems to have a Kemetic source,Pan,Min,Bes,Goat of Mandes,Satyr.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
The later Iron Age Philistines of the Agean, the Persians, and of course the Greeks were all white

I can understand calling the Greeks "white", since they were Europeans, but what makes you classify the Philistines and Persians as "white"? I had the impression that they were both tan-skinned.
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Djehuti
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^ Typically fair-skinned Persians and north Aegeans are 'white' compared to other Southwest Asians who are brown and especially black peoples. This was especially the case with the Persians whom even Greeks called fair-skinned under their robes in contrast to themselves who were 'tanned' complexioned.
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alTakruri
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Not that it's a gotdamn thing to do with Naqada
but here's a Pelisti (Philistine) from Ramses III's
faience tile series at Medinet Habu now in Boston.

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