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alot of peeps say 6th dynasty old kingdom because of the transcript of pepi, but why is it also propagated that southerners were making military campaigns way before the 6th dynasty like this pic here A Nubian bowman on the "Lion Hunt Palette," Egypt, Predynastic Period, ca. 3400-3200 BCE. makes no sense 2 depict so-called foreigners, especially as military men. That is like the U.S. depicting Mexican soldiers in a esteemed manner.

look at nenu there is no way for them2 be foreign so obviously it is like most feudal systems were if you fight for the king then u r in allegiance with the king for example from Manetho's Aegyptiaca:

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King Amenophis of Egypt, when he heard of their invasion, was perplexed remembering what Amenophis, the son of Papis, had foretold him. He gathered many Egyptians, and deliberated with their leaders, and sent for their sacred animals, above all those worshipped in the temples, and ordered the priests to hide the images of their gods with the utmost care. He also sent his son Sethos, who was also called Ramses, and only five years old, from his father Rhampses to a friend of his. He continued with three hundred thousand of the most warlike Egyptians against the enemy, who met them. But he did not join battle with them, afraid to be fighting against the gods. He turned back and returned to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other sacred animals which he had sent for, and continued to Kush, together with his whole army and masses of Egyptians.
The king of Ethiopia was under an obligation to him and received him, and took care of the masses that were with him, while the land supplied all that was necessary for the men's sustenance. He gave them cities and villages to live in, that was to be from its beginning during those fatally determined thirteen years. He sent his army to guard the borders of Egypt in order to protect King Amenophis. And this is what happened in Kush."

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Then a king will come from the south,

Ameny, the justified, by name,

Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt.

He will take the white crown,

He will wear the red crown;

He will join the Two Mighty Ones,

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3:8 Art thou better than populous No(thebes), that was situate among the rivers, [that had] the waters round about it, whose rampart [was] the sea, [and] her wall [was] from the sea?

3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt [were] her strength, and [it was] infinite; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.

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Having taught the Ethiopians the arts of tillage and husbandry, he built several cities in their country, and appointed governors over them

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Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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alot of peeps say 6th dynasty old kingdom because of the transcript of pepi, but why is it also propagated that southerners were making military campaigns way before the 6th dynasty like this pic here A Nubian bowman on the "Lion Hunt Palette," Egypt, Predynastic Period, ca. 3400-3200 BCE. makes no sense 2 depict so-called foreigners, especially as military men. That is like the U.S. depicting Mexican soldiers in a esteemed manner.

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If you are saying that Egypt and Nubia cannot be solely conceived of as "foreign enemies" then I agree.

(1) The foundations of Egyptian civilization lie in the Sahara and the Sudan, and Nubia. These were the people who in main inhabited the Nile Valley and generated its early civilization. From the beginning, they are "natives" not foreigners. Quote:
"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant."(Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472)

quote- 2007 on the key indiogenou Badarian Pre-dynastic group:
"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit
greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness
of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).

These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a "Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK.."
(Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)

The same author of the above quote, Zakrewski, also examined the limb proportion of the ancients and foumd them to be like other tropically adapted Africans. Quote:

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.)

So the "originals" of Egypt were substantially tropically adapted peoples looking like Nubians.


2) Egypt and Nubia had a complex relationship. Egypt did conquer the territory known as Nubia in certain eras, but Nubia itself also conquered Egypt in some eras. More importantly, several mainstream scholars show that the two peoples were so closely related, that they were virtually indistinguishable.
quote:

The ancient Egyptians referred to a region, located south of the third cataract the Nile River, in which Nubians dwelt as Kush.. Within such context, this phrase is not a racial slur. Throughout the history of ancient Egypt there were numerous, well documented instances that celebrate Nubian-Egyptian marriages. A study of these documents, particularly those dated to both the Egyptian New Kingdom (after 1550 B.C.E.) and to Dynasty XXV and early Dynasty XXVI (about 720-640 BCE), reveals that neither spouse nor any of the children of such unions suffered discrimination at the hands of the ancient Egyptians. Indeed such marriages were never an obstacle to social, economic, or political status, provided the individuals concerned conformed to generally accepted Egyptian social standards. Furthermore, at times, certain Nubian practices, such as tattooing for women, and the unisex fashion of wearing earrings, were wholeheartedly embraced by the ancient Egyptians." (Bianchi, 2004: p. 4)


'It is an extremely difficult task to attempt to describe the Nubians during the course of Egypt's New Kingdom, because their presence appears to have virtually evaporated from the archaeological record.. The result has been described as a wholesale Nubian assimilation into Egyptian society. This assimilation was so complete that it masked all Nubian ethnic identities insofar as archaeological remains are concerned beneath the impenetrable veneer of Egypt's material; culture.. In the Kushite Period, when Nubians ruled as Pharaohs in their own right, the material culture of Dynasty XXV (about 750-655 B.C.E.) was decidedly Egyptian in character.. Nubia's entire landscape up to the region of the Third Cataract was dotted with temples indistinguishable in style and decoration from contemporary temples erected in Egypt. The same observation obtains for the smaller number of typically Egyptian tombs in which these elite Nubian princes were interred. (Bianchi, 2004, p. 99-100)

- Robert Bianchi ( 2004). Daily Life of the Nubians. Greenwood Publishing Group


Quote 2:


"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."

- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
[/i]



3. Fighting men from Nubia appear frequent;y because they were valuable to the military of Egypt. There were other peoples that served in Egypt's armed forces, but on monuments and inscriptions the Nubians stand out. This should not be surprising, because the two peoples were closely related to one another as documented above. And Egypt is not unique in making use of skilled solders from Nubia. Nubian fighting men were also sought as mercenaries by various kingdoms of Southwest Asia, according to the Armana letters.

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See article and footnotes from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_military_systems_to_1800

Over the centuries, archers and spearmen plied their trade in the Egyptian forces, and rendered good service against such foreign enemies as the Hyksos. They also served in an internal security, policing role within Egypt itself, both in Upper Egypt adjoining Nubia and further north. Egyptian officials frequently requested the services of such men, particularly the archers, or pitati, to provide security and defense.[9] Such activity however was not always one way. While Egypt conquered large parts of Nubia at various times, the Kushite 25th Dynasty, originating in Nubia, was to conquer Egypt itself, drawing upon the archery skills of the region's bowmen. One ancient inscription by Weni the Elder, a royal court official and army commander states a recruitment of thousands of Nubian troops:[10]

"When his majesty took action against the Asiatic sand-dwellers, his majesty made an army of many tens of thousands from all of Upper Egypt: ...; from Lower Egypt: ...; and from Irtjet-Nubians, Medja-Nubians, Yam-Nubians, Wawat-Nubians, Kaau-Nubians; and from Tjemeh-land."

--
Nor were Nubians just simple bowmen. They served in the infantry as well and were responsible for the dissemination of advanced fighting techniques and weapons across Egypt according to scholars. Indeed, advanced technology like chariots seem to have been manufactured in Egypt.
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See article and footnotes from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_military_systems_to_1800

Mercenary soldiers had fairly high status: Egyptian wives and servants are documented for Nubian mercenaries at Gebelein in the First Intermediate Period, and mercenaries were sometimes important in the dissemination of weapons and techniques of warfare, and advanced weapons such as the composite bow.[11] Morkot (2003) notes a dissemination of war technology across the Nile Valley.

"Nubia, too, must have benefited from the international arms trade. Although battle scenes show Nubian enemies conventionally as bowmen with relatively little equipment, other sources show the use of chariots by the elite, and the "tribute" scenes show weaponry and armor that was manufactured in Nubia... the inclusion of chariots as part of the Kushite tribute to Egypt suggests that they, too, were eventually being manufactured in Nubia itself.[12]

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quote:

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look at nenu there is no way for them2 be foreign so obviously it is like most feudal systems were if you fight for the king then u r in allegiance with the king for example from Manetho's Aegyptiaca:

quote:

---

King Amenophis of Egypt, when he heard of their invasion, was perplexed remembering what Amenophis, the son of Papis, had foretold him. He gathered many Egyptians, and deliberated with their leaders, and sent for their sacred animals, above all those worshipped in the temples, and ordered the priests to hide the images of their gods with the utmost care. He also sent his son Sethos, who was also called Ramses, and only five years old, from his father Rhampses to a friend of his. He continued with three hundred thousand of the most warlike Egyptians against the enemy, who met them. But he did not join battle with them, afraid to be fighting against the gods. He turned back and returned to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other sacred animals which he had sent for, and continued to Kush, together with his whole army and masses of Egyptians.
The king of Ethiopia was under an obligation to him and received him, and took care of the masses that were with him, while the land supplied all that was necessary for the men's sustenance. He gave them cities and villages to live in, that was to be from its beginning during those fatally determined thirteen years. He sent his army to guard the borders of Egypt in order to protect King Amenophis. And this is what happened in Kush."

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This would make sense in the armies of the northerners being mostly southerners because of political allegiances.

quote:

---

Then a king will come from the south,

Ameny, the justified, by name,

Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt.

He will take the white crown,

He will wear the red crown;

He will join the Two Mighty Ones,

---

She speaks as if being a son of a woman from the south is the formula. This would put the perspective of the historical accounts in the bible in shape because they allways mention egypt and ethiopia together as if they are bosom buddies. I mean the u.s. have been on war expeditions but rarely does one hear a concentration of their allies.
look at a highly key reference to the two mighty ones by the very religious book of the jews and christians
nahum3:8-9

quote:

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3:8 Art thou better than populous No(thebes), that was situate among the rivers, [that had] the waters round about it, whose rampart [was] the sea, [and] her wall [was] from the sea?

3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt [were] her strength, and [it was] infinite; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.

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maybe the allegiance is also seen in diodorus's account of what he heared from egyptians concerning osiris:

quote:

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Having taught the Ethiopians the arts of tillage and husbandry, he built several cities in their country, and appointed governors over them

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[/QB]

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Agreed, but would note that:

(a) Egyotian hegemony over any region classified as part of the Nubian area was a mixed bag. There is a lot of propaganda in Egyptian inscriptions on Nubia. Bianchi 2004 above notes that a more balanced picture may be that of local allies of Egypt in the Nubian area freely cooperating on their own, and not necesarily glorious conquests claimed in propaganda inscriptions by pharaohs. These local allies both adopted and exported culture- there was a two-way exchange between them and Egypt.

(b) A number of pharoahs were themselves of "Nubian" origin acording to scholars like Yurco, although again, the term "Nubian" would be misguided for dark-skined people in Egypt. Dark skin is part of the native Egyptian package from Day 1. Its appearance does not automatically signify "Nubians", and "foreigners" are not needed to give Egyptians dark skin. Anyway, taking Yurco's argument for the moment, he says that the pharoah that made a big splash in Nubian conquests were themselves of Nubian origin. This puts a spike in ignorant, bogus white racist attempts to claim some sort of "racial war" between Egyptians and Nubians.

(c) Ethiopia or more accurately Kush is sometimes mentioned with Egypt in the Bible, confirming what you say about the relationship between the nations, at times. Of course they were fairly close geographially so there would be some inteaction. But Kush by no means can be called a sole tributary of Egypt. It stands by itself pretty much in the Bible too. For example the book of Chronicles tells of the powerful war captain Zerah the Ethiopian who advanced on Palestine with a large force of men and 300 chariots.


-----------------------------------


Also, the Kushites almost wiped out Egypt prior to the New Kingdom according to some scholars:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article851852.ece
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By Dalya Alberge
ANCIENT Egyptians “airbrushed” out of history one of their most humiliating defeats in battle, academics believe. In what the British Museum described as the discovery of a lifetime, a 3,500-year-old inscription shows that the Sudanese kingdom of Kush came close to destroying its northern neighbour.
The revelation is contained in 22 lines of sophisticated hieroglyphics deciphered by Egyptologists from the British Museum and Egypt after their discovery in February in a richly decorated tomb at El Kab, near Thebes, in Upper Egypt.

Vivian Davies, Keeper of the museum’s Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan, said: “In many ways this is the discovery of a lifetime, one that changes the textbooks. We’re absolutely staggered by it.”

The inscription details previously unknown important battles unprecedented “since the time of the god” — the beginning of time. Experts now believe that the humiliation of defeat was one that the Ancient Egyptians preferred to omit from their historical accounts.

Contemporary Egyptian descriptions had led historians to assume that the kingdom of Kush was a weak and barbaric neighbouring state for hundreds of years, although it boasted a complex society with vast resources of gold dominating the principal trade routes into the heart of Africa. It did eventually conquer Egypt, in the 8th century BC.

Mr Davies, who headed the joint British Museum and Egyptian archaeological team, said: “Now it is clear that Kush was a superpower which had the capacity to invade Egypt. It was a huge invasion, one that stirred up the entire region, a momentous event that is previously undocumented.

“They swept over the mountains, over the Nile, without limit. This is the first time we’ve got evidence. Far from Egypt being the supreme power of the Nile Valley, clearly Kush was at that time.

“Had they stayed to occupy Egypt, the Kushites might have eliminated it. That’s how close Egypt came to extinction. But the Egyptians were resilient enough to survive, and shortly afterwards inaugurated the great imperial age known as the New Kingdom. The Kushites weren’t interested in occupation. They went raiding for precious objects, a symbol of domination. They did a lot of damage.”

The inscription was found between two internal chambers in a rock-cut tomb that was covered in soot and dirt. It appeared gradually as the grime was removed.

Mr Davies said: “I thought it would be a religious text, but it turned out to be historical. Gradually, a real narrative emerged, a brand new text inscribed in red paint, reading from right to left.”

The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC).

The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack.

The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: “Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. . .” It describes the decisive role played by “the might of the great one, Nekhbet”, the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as “strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire”, while the “chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame”.

The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies.

Mr Davies said: “That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It’s the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings’ power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures.”

The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text “for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobek- nakht”. Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht’s tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.

The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.

Rich pickings from ebony and ivory

Kush was a vast territory spanning modern-day northern Sudan. Ruled by kings who were buried with large quantities of luxury goods, including jewellery and inlaid furniture, it had complex political and religious institutions.

The economy was based on trading in ivory, ebony and incense, as well as slaves. Its skilled craftsmen left behind some of the finest ceramics produced in the ancient world.

The independent kingdom of Kush arose during the 8th century BC. The native kings laid claim to the Egyptian throne, declaring themselves the true heirs of Thutmose III and other great pharaonic ancestors. Under the leadership of King Piye (c747-716BC), they conquered Egypt, ruling as its 25th Dynasty.

The reign of King Taharqo (690-664BC) was a high point of the Kushite empire. He erected imposing temples, shrines and statues throughout the Nile Valley. His pyramid, the largest of the Kushite examples, soared to more than 48m (160ft).

Over 4,000 years interaction between the empires was inevitable. While they had different funerary practices at the time of the El Kab inscription — the Egyptians had tombs and pyramids while the Kushites preferred tumuli (grave mounds) — the Kushites went on to build pyramids and mummify their dead.

In return, the Egyptians were particularly influenced by Kushite jewellery design.

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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A Nubian bowman on the "Lion Hunt Palette," Egypt, Predynastic Period, ca. 3400-3200 BCE.

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[qb]look at nenu

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quote:

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there is no way for them2 be foreign so obviously it is like most feudal systems were if you fight for the king then u r in allegiance with the king for example from Manetho's Aegyptiaca:

King Amenophis of Egypt, when he heard of their invasion, was perplexed remembering what Amenophis, the son of Papis, had foretold him. He gathered many Egyptians, and deliberated with their leaders, and sent for their sacred animals, above all those worshipped in the temples, and ordered the priests to hide the images of their gods with the utmost care. He also sent his son Sethos, who was also called Ramses, and only five years old, from his father Rhampses to a friend of his. He continued with three hundred thousand of the most warlike Egyptians against the enemy, who met them. But he did not join battle with them, afraid to be fighting against the gods. He turned back and returned to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other sacred animals which he had sent for, and continued to Kush, together with his whole army and masses of Egyptians.
The king of Ethiopia was under an obligation to him and received him, and took care of the masses that were with him, while the land supplied all that was necessary for the men's sustenance. He gave them cities and villages to live in, that was to be from its beginning during those fatally determined thirteen years. He sent his army to guard the borders of Egypt in order to protect King Amenophis. And this is what happened in Kush."

This would make sense in the armies of the northerners being mostly southerners because of political allegiances.

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Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |