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alTakruri
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From Dakhla down to Yam? – New Light on the Abu Ballas Trail

Rudolph Kuper, Frank Förster, Heiko Riemer

When the Abu Ballas Trail was discovered in 1999/2000,
this most ancient Egyptian desert road was followed up
by Carlo Bergmann from Dakhla Oasis as far as the Gilf
Kebir plateau and subsequently investigated and
documented by the ACACIA Project of the University
of Cologne. Its final destination, however, remained
a matter of speculation: Kufra (as Almásy suggested)?
Darfur? Or via Jebel Ouenat to Ennedi?

Now in 2008 Mark Borda and Mahmoud Marei found in
south-eastern Jebel Ouenat a hieroglyphic rock inscription
mentioning the founder of the Middle Kingdom, Pharaoh
Mentuhotep II (11th Dynasty, 2046 - 1995 BC), and two
countries bringing “tributes” to him: Yam and Tekhebet(en).
This brings up again the much-discussed question about the
location of Yam, recorded as the target of the trade expeditions
of Harkhuf, 6th Dynasty governor of Upper Egypt, and placed by
most authors somewhere in Nubia. Now it may be located 600
km west of the Nile Valley in Jebel Ouenat itself (?) or even
further south in Darfur or in the Ennedi mountains in Chad,
impressively demonstrating ancient Egypt’s far-reaching
political ties and another “Corridor to Africa”.

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alTakruri
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quote:

A pharaonic inscription at Uweinat!

 -

In late 2008 Mark Borda and Mahmoud Marei have discovered a pharaonic inscription at Jebel Uweinat, a most amazing find that will require a complete re-thinking of our understanding of the deep desert travel capabilities of the Ancient Egyptians.

Taken from
The Libyan Desert Homepage

Read there The inscription of Mentuhotep II (Nebhepetre) at Jebel Uweinat (snippets below).

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alTakruri
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quote:
An incredible find by Mark Borda & Mahmoud Marei in December 2008 has finally provided the dramatic and irrefutable proof that Ancient Egyptians did do long range desert travel, leaving an inscription commemorating their visit to Jebel Uweinat some 4000 years ago.

 -  -




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alTakruri
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quote:


. . . .

An incredible find by Mark Borda & Mahmoud Marei in December 2008 has finally provided the dramatic and irrefutable proof that Ancient Egyptians did do long range desert travel, leaving an inscription commemorating their visit to Jebel Uweinat some 4000 years ago.

. . . .

The inscription is made on the vertical face of a large rock in a prominent position on a hillside. The inscription has been published in detail in Sahara 19 (CLayton, Joseph, Aloisa de Trafford, Mark Borda, A hyeroglyphic Inscription found at Jebel uweinat mentioning Yam and Tekhebet, 2008).

. . . .

The inscription is composed of three parts, from left to right the seated figure of the King wearing the red crown and holding a staff, followed by the name of the king in a cartouche and the associated royal titulary. On the right there are two separate pieces of text that refer to two "lands" (i.e. the people of these lands) bringing tribute to the king. While the whole scene suggests the two named lands bringing tribute and by implication accepting the overlordship of Mentuhotep, more realistically it commemorates a trading event.


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alTakruri
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quote:
 -

The upper inscription on the right reads Iam hr ms ntr... ("Yam bringing ..."). The land of Yam was the destination of three lengthy voyages made by Harkhouf, whose autobiographical texts on the facade of his rock tomb in Aswan are among the most important Ancient Egyptian historical records. While the three voyages are described in much detail, the location of Yam has been a total mystery, with most Egyptologists placing it somewhere in Nubia and west of the Nile. The reference to Yam at Uweinat suggests that the route starting at Dakhla, and clearly passing by Uweinat, could possibly have continued on to Yam, which in this case could have been further south-west (with Uweinat possibly being a meeting and trading point). Possible areas thay may be identified as Yam are Darfur, Ennedi or even the Tibesti mountains. Unfortunately the name of the produce is too weathered to be clearly readable, but the figure holding a bowl or basket full of some substance behind the prostrate figure would indicate a powdered or granular substance. The first sign of the produce is ntr, Clayton and Trafford suggest a reading of Sn-ntr (incense), as this was a produce of Yam referred to by Harkhouf. Having had a good close look, I'm reasonably convinced that no more than one sign could be after ntr, the other patterns are simply weathering. This would not fit sn-ntr, however there is an alternate reading/produce, ntr-y (a kind of Natron). We do know that Natron is a key produce of the Chad region to this day, and with the ongoing civil war in Egypt, Mentuhotep in Thebes may have been cut off from the only major supply of this material crucial for mummification, Wadi Natrun in the north. However at this moment this reading is nothing more than speculation.




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alTakruri
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quote:
 -

The lower inscription is the repetition of the upper one, with the name of the land and the produce replaced. It reads Tkhb-t(n?) hr ms ... ("Tekhebet bringing ..."). This is the only known reference to this land. Clayton and Trafford suggest the reading of Tkhb-t, suggesting the "n" sign to be a duplicate determinative (the Tkhb root means "watered, irrigated"). However at close look, I can only see a single "n" sign, which would make the reading an alternate Tkhb-tn. In both cases the name would seem to imply "The place with water". There is tantalizing logical jump to the present day name of Jebel Uweinat, in Arabic "The mountain of the little springs". The produce is totally illegible with the exception of the first sign which is clearly a "t", however the image of an oryx antelope would fit the wildlife expectable at an Uweinat mountain slightly wetter than today. However this is purely a hypothesis at the moment, that cannot be proven either way until further references to this place are found.


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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Unfortunately the name of the produce is too weathered to be clearly readable...

Ditto. I can barely make out some of the other signs, save for the kneeling figure handing/holding out some good/material, a figure which appears to be a stick, two bird figures, and possibly legs(?). Similar situation with the outline of a cartouche above; the outlines of the bird figures are obvious enough, but not as much with what could be the pictograph of mountains(?), or a bar-like(?) figure flanking what appears to be a wavy (water-like)(?) figure/line, which in turn is followed by yet another bar-like pictograph(?). I intend to eventually take a closer look at what these letters are relaying, to the extent that I can make out the letters.

quote:

but the figure holding a bowl or basket full of some substance behind the prostrate figure would indicate a powdered or granular substance. The first sign of the produce is ntr, Clayton and Trafford suggest a reading of Sn-ntr (incense), as this was a produce of Yam referred to by Harkhouf. Having had a good close look, I'm reasonably convinced that no more than one sign could be after ntr, the other patterns are simply weathering. This would not fit sn-ntr, however there is an alternate reading/produce, ntr-y (a kind of Natron). We do know that Natron is a key produce of the Chad region to this day...

'ntr' strikes me as word that is generally associated with the neteru/deities; is it serving that function here, aka divinity/sacredness, even if the the various words that incorporate it may mean something more? Linking the word to some sort of a Natron (possibly used in body preservation, like in mummification) may suggest an idea headed in that direction; no?
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alTakruri
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A couple of things I find interesting.

 -

The drawing following the 'Yam' segment shows legs
and a person holding a large container. Below this
begins the 'Tekhebeten' segment. Note this: t-kh-b
means swollen legs and it has fluid connotations.
T-kh-b is in words having a jar (sometimes pouring
a liquid).

The drawing following the 'Tekhebeten' segment shows
an ibex and a person at its flank. The first three
glyphs spelling Yam also mean a female ibex (also a
female of any animal). Those same glyphs also refer
to a certain species of tree.

Identifying that tree and ascertaining where it grows
may shed light on the location of Yam.

None of this is to dispell the importance of Borda's
find which apparently is being given 'the silent
treatment' as was Seele's find of the Qustul tombs.
I hope we need not wait ten years before 'academia'
seriously looks into Borda's find and issues comments
pro or con.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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It would not at all be surprising to see physical trade links into Chad and deep into southern Sudan, given the whole history of movement between the Saharan zones and the Nile Valley.
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alTakruri
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El Fashur in Darfur Sudan is the final link in the
caravan route that went from the 1st cataract to
and through the Kurkur, Dunqul, and Selima oases.

Selima was the junction where a caravan route that
started further north in "Middle" Egypt at Asyut met
the other route.

 -

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alTakruri
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The im3 tree, spelled with the first three glyphs in
Yam, is thought to be either Maerua crassifolia or
zizyphus. Both are common central/southern Sahara
plants.


quote:

 -  -

Other wooded land
Shrubs


Scrub types occur in the "semi-desert zone" (the northern half of Kordofan and Blue Nile provinces, the whole of the Khartoum province and about three-quarters of Kassala province and some parts of Darfur adjoining Kordofan). The rainfall is 75 to 300 mm, confined to July and August, and comes as a few local storms or scattered showers with a variable and unreliable pattern. The vegetation is a variable mixture of grasses and herbs, either without any shrubs or more frequently with widely scattered ones about 2 meters high. The grass is not dense enough to allow fires to burn through it annually. Only three sub-divisions have been classified as bearing woody vegetation:

  • Acacia tortilis-Maerua crassifolia desert scrub is seldom homogeneous because of advanced geological erosion. The characteristic tree is Acacia tortilis, which usually has a flat-topped crown and several stems. In the drier parts it is confined to drainage lines, but as the rainfall increases it spreads out from these and in places occupies quite large areas. Some fairly thick even stands occur east of Khartoum. A common associate is Maerua crassifolia while Acacia raddiana, Salvadora persica and Leptadenia pyrotechnica are found in sandy wadis and Capparis decidua, Ziziphus spina-christi and Balanites aegyptiaca in clay drainages. Acacia nubica and Calotropis procera indicate heavy overgrazing.
  • Acacia mellifera-Commiphora desert scrub replaces the previous vegetation type in northern Kordofan and northern Darfur. Ground cover varies greatly. Generally, the bushes occur as only a scattering but they become thicker and more uniform on hollows between "gozes". Particularly near rock outcrops, but also away from these, Commiphora africana and other species of Commiphora are the most abundant bushes, growing in association with Acacia mellifera. Others in varying quantity are Maerua crassifolia, Boscia senegalensis, Acacia raddiana and Lannea humilis. Leguminous shrubs are often present. Generally, but not always, there are more annual grasses than perennials. Blepharis sp. is widely seen in places where the grazing pressure is not too heavy.


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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
It would not at all be surprising to see physical trade links into Chad and deep into southern Sudan, given the whole history of movement between the Saharan zones and the Nile Valley.

I agree - and think the fact that archeologists think the whole history of Egypt needs to be "rethought" by "scholars" due to this find makes me wonder what the h_ck they think Egypt was. Why would ancient Africans so familiar with the stars not know about the places they came from. Ridiculously insulting is all I can say, and weird science.

I guess just because Europeans discovered America and emerged from their "dark age" a mere several hundred years ago everybody else since recorded history must have been just as isolated and static.

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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
It would not at all be surprising to see physical trade links into Chad and deep into southern Sudan, given the whole history of movement between the Saharan zones and the Nile Valley.

I agree - and think the fact that archeologists think the whole history of Egypt needs to be "rethought" by "scholars" due to this find makes me wonder what the h_ck they think Egypt was. Why would ancient Africans so familiar with the stars not know about the places they came from. Ridiculously insulting is all I can say, and weird science.

I guess just because Europeans discovered America and emerged from their "dark age" a mere several hundred years ago everybody else since recorded history must have been just as isolated and static.

Yea and that's not all. Historians have yet to implement the mass migrations that happened in archaic history into the mainstream. That's why so few people can come to grasp this idea that a population could have moved from Africa to Arabia and back again. Or that Egyptians could have had links to a group as far away as the Chad (if that's really where Yam was located). It's like genetics and linguistics are hitting a brick wall known as academic dogma. Take Benin HbS and its spread for instance. What is the general view of how this West African haplotype reached so many places? The common answer seems to be slavery, but that's really a major cop-out and everyone knows it. Do historians REALLY believe carriers of E3a migrated to West Africa and never left? We know this is not the case because their sickle cell marker has popped up as far away as Oman and Greece. So Europeans and Arabs could travel all over the Old World, but Africans couldn't?

I'm sorry, I'm ranting now. Great thread though and very puzzling.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
From Dakhla down to Yam? – New Light on the Abu Ballas Trail

Rudolph Kuper, Frank Förster, Heiko Riemer

This brings up again the much-discussed question about the location of Yam, recorded as the target of the trade expeditions of Harkhuf, 6th Dynasty governor of Upper Egypt, and placed by most authors somewhere in Nubia. Now it may be located 600 km west of the Nile Valley in Jebel Ouenat itself (?) or even further south in Darfur or in the Ennedi mountains in Chad, impressively demonstrating ancient Egypt’s far reaching political ties and another “Corridor to Africa”.

Evergreen Posts:

Nabta Playa and Its Role in Northeastern African Prehistory

Fred Wendorf and Romuald Schild

"The archaeology of the Sahara in northern Sudan is little known (Kuper1986; Richter 1989; Schuck 1989), but near Malha Crater in northern Darfur there are numerous earthen mounds, some of which are very large, indicating that a rich ceremonial and burial complex existed there in the past. Many of these mounds occur near large, late prehistoric ‘‘cities’’ that are segmented into distinct units and special precincts. The
arrangements of the towns suggest multiple sections or lineages. Very little work has been done at these sites, but they are tentatively dated between 3000 and 4000 B.P., when the lake sediments in the crater indicate an interval of
precipitation (Dumont et al.1993). Of interest here is the erection of burial mounds in special precincts away from the settlements, which resembles the situation of the megalithic structures at Nabta. These Malha sites could well
have served as regional ceremonial centers. It is also useful to note that these settlements indicate, at the very least, that large and complex groups could function successfully in areas of very limited rainfall, but we do not know if they were farmers or mixed farmers and
pastoralists."

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alTakruri
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There's a pre-historic route to Lake Chad from the
Nile that was useful in the spread of the Sudanese
Neolithic industry. Map(s) forthcoming.

quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
It would not at all be surprising to see physical trade links into Chad
and deep into southern Sudan, given the whole history of movement
between the Saharan zones and the Nile Valley.


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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
It would not at all be surprising to see physical trade links into Chad and deep into southern Sudan, given the whole history of movement between the Saharan zones and the Nile Valley.

I agree - and think the fact that archeologists think the whole history of Egypt needs to be "rethought" by "scholars" due to this find makes me wonder what the h_ck they think Egypt was. Why would ancient Africans so familiar with the stars not know about the places they came from. Ridiculously insulting is all I can say, and weird science.

I guess just because Europeans discovered America and emerged from their "dark age" a mere several hundred years ago everybody else since recorded history must have been just as isolated and static.

Yea and that's not all. Historians have yet to implement the mass migrations that happened in archaic history into the mainstream. That's why so few people can come to grasp this idea that a population could have moved from Africa to Arabia and back again. Or that Egyptians could have had links to a group as far away as the Chad (if that's really where Yam was located). It's like genetics and linguistics are hitting a brick wall known as academic dogma. Take Benin HbS and its spread for instance. What is the general view of how this West African haplotype reached so many places? The common answer seems to be slavery, but that's really a major cop-out and everyone knows it. Do historians REALLY believe carriers of E3a migrated to West Africa and never left? We know this is not the case because their sickle cell marker has popped up as far away as Oman and Greece. So Europeans and Arabs could travel all over the Old World, but Africans couldn't?

I'm sorry, I'm ranting now. Great thread though and very puzzling.

Yeah - I'll never Dr. Van Sertima in one of his lectures telling the story of how he was talking over the phone with a European "scholar" in either South Africa or somewhere else outside of the US about how certain crops similar native to to Africa got to the Americas. He said the guy said that he didn't think "the Negro" could have sailed to America but that it is more likely that a bird probably carried some seeds over.lol!

Needless to say the guy didn't know Dr. Van Sertima was black at the time. Its actually sad but true that many still think that way in academia.

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beyoku
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Where are the maps? I love maps [Smile]


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
There's a pre-historic route to Lake Chad from the
Nile that was useful in the spread of the Sudanese
Neolithic industry. Map(s) forthcoming.

quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
It would not at all be surprising to see physical trade links into Chad
and deep into southern Sudan, given the whole history of movement
between the Saharan zones and the Nile Valley.



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alTakruri
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Posted earlier, now zoomed and edited, this map shows a pre-historic route to Lake Chad from the Upper Nile Valley.

 -


The same route in hemi-continental perspective probably goes back at least to the Sudan Neolithic and last Green Sahara phases.

 -

The eastern terminals Dongola/Sennar to Darfur and
Kordofan and then on to Lake Tschad and from there
most likely up to Bilma for the track to the Niger's
Bend and terminating at the Senegal may have some
relation to the spread of the Niger-Kordofanian super
phylum.

That is the "Sahel Route" established from times
pre-historic and still in use today. It would've
been used by Classical African Civilization folk
to travel for trade or migration to West Africa.


 -


The part of this route as far as Lake Tschad may also
have to do with the two Afrisan phyla Chadic and
Tamazight and maybe the Nilo-Saharan super phyum.

 -


 -

This is something showing the role of the Sahel in
the transfer of people, language, and culture from
the Middle Nile to the Lake Tschad Basin based on

Roger Blench
The Westward Wanderings of Cushitic Pastoralists:
Explorations in the Prehistory of Central Africa

in
Baroin C, Boutrais J, (eds)
L'homme et L'animal dans le Bassin du Lac Tchad
Paris: 1999 39:80

A - The "Inter-Saharan Hypothesis" (p.70)

1). Tentative Historical Implications

* Cushitic and Chadic share a lexicon of common
domestic animal names, numerals, and body parts.
This puts them in a special relationship vis a
vis Egyptian-Semitic-Tamazight (Ehrets "North
Afroasiatic -- 1995). The link results from
Cushitics migrating westward. Cattle, goats,
sheep and possibly donkeys, dogs, pigs, and
guinea-fowl accompanied the migrants.

* The distance presents no problem since gradual
migration of pastoralists over great expanses is
evidenced by the Fulani spreading from Senegal
to Sudan this past millenia. Also, Shuwa "Arabs"
made a Nile Valley to Lake Tschad migration.

* Nilo-Saharan speakers eliminated the Chadic
languages once spoken in a strip across Sudan.
A few Chadic lects, like Kujarke, linger in the
west of Sudan.

2). Archaeological Correlations

* The so-called Leiterband pottery tradition is
thought to spring from the Khartoum Neolithic.
Sites having the pottery found in the Eastern
Sahara at the Wadi Howar between the Nile
Valley and Eastern Chad also have pits burying
complete cattle skeletons. Fish bones indicate
a diet similar todays Nilotics like the Dinka
combining pastoralism with fishing.

* The Wadi Howar's west end leads to the Ennedi
and Biltine region of mountains. There is a
pass between the two which would have served
the wandering pastoralists. Other side the pass
another wadi takes up, the Wadi Hawach, which
is followed by more and littler wadis clear to
Lake Tschad.

* Rather than a planned timely migration the
scenario is rather one of westward seeping
transhumance maybe beginning in Ethiopia
between 4000 and 3000 BCE. The Khartoum
Neolithic began roughly 3700 BCE and the
spread along the Wadi Howar about 2000 BCE.


= = =

 -
Above is the map I simplified and added the red undercores to,
and on which you can follow the rest of the route from Kukiya
on to the Senegal as well as see all the major historic trade routes
from the Savannah to the Meditteranean and from the Red Sea to
the Atlantic Ocean.

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Brada-Anansi
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Brother Al-Takruri the above should put to rest the rather bogus ideas about endemic separation between East and West Africa and no connections has ever been made, again this also brings to mind the conversation about Black Genesis by Robert Bauval over at ESR.
Astaneb made this comparison of a Bes like figure and the kemetian God named Bes who it is said came from the area of the Congo...reminder that the Pharaohs sent expeditions there to bring back Twa for the dances of the gods
Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pav&action=display&thread=86#ixzz19qMNXFBh

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Posted earlier, now zoomed and edited, this map shows a pre-historic route to Lake Chad from the Upper Nile Valley.

 -


The same route in hemi-continental perspective probably goes back at least to the Sudan Neolithic and last Green Sahara phases.

 -

The eastern terminals Dongola/Sennar to Darfur and
Kordofan and then on to Lake Tschad and from there
most likely up to Bilma for the track to the Niger's
Bend and terminating at the Senegal may have some
relation to the spread of the Niger-Kordofanian super
phylum.

That is the "Sahel Route" established from times
pre-historic and still in use today. It would've
been used by Classical African Civilization folk
to travel for trade or migration to West Africa.


 -


The part of this route as far as Lake Tschad may also
have to do with the two Afrisan phyla Chadic and
Tamazight and maybe the Nilo-Saharan super phyum.

 -


 -

This is something showing the role of the Sahel in
the transfer of people, language, and culture from
the Middle Nile to the Lake Tschad Basin based on

Roger Blench
The Westward Wanderings of Cushitic Pastoralists:
Explorations in the Prehistory of Central Africa

in
Baroin C, Boutrais J, (eds)
L'homme et L'animal dans le Bassin du Lac Tchad
Paris: 1999 39:80

A - The "Inter-Saharan Hypothesis" (p.70)

1). Tentative Historical Implications

* Cushitic and Chadic share a lexicon of common
domestic animal names, numerals, and body parts.
This puts them in a special relationship vis a
vis Egyptian-Semitic-Tamazight (Ehrets "North
Afroasiatic -- 1995). The link results from
Cushitics migrating westward. Cattle, goats,
sheep and possibly donkeys, dogs, pigs, and
guinea-fowl accompanied the migrants.

* The distance presents no problem since gradual
migration of pastoralists over great expanses is
evidenced by the Fulani spreading from Senegal
to Sudan this past millenia. Also, Shuwa "Arabs"
made a Nile Valley to Lake Tschad migration.

* Nilo-Saharan speakers eliminated the Chadic
languages once spoken in a strip across Sudan.
A few Chadic lects, like Kujarke, linger in the
west of Sudan.

2). Archaeological Correlations

* The so-called Leiterband pottery tradition is
thought to spring from the Khartoum Neolithic.
Sites having the pottery found in the Eastern
Sahara at the Wadi Howar between the Nile
Valley and Eastern Chad also have pits burying
complete cattle skeletons. Fish bones indicate
a diet similar todays Nilotics like the Dinka
combining pastoralism with fishing.

* The Wadi Howar's west end leads to the Ennedi
and Biltine region of mountains. There is a
pass between the two which would have served
the wandering pastoralists. Other side the pass
another wadi takes up, the Wadi Hawach, which
is followed by more and littler wadis clear to
Lake Tschad.

* Rather than a planned timely migration the
scenario is rather one of westward seeping
transhumance maybe beginning in Ethiopia
between 4000 and 3000 BCE. The Khartoum
Neolithic began roughly 3700 BCE and the
spread along the Wadi Howar about 2000 BCE.


= = =

 -
Above is the map I simplified and added the red undercores to,
and on which you can follow the rest of the route from Kukiya
on to the Senegal as well as see all the major historic trade routes
from the Savannah to the Meditteranean and from the Red Sea to
the Atlantic Ocean.

^^ Excellent information- showing the key role of
that broad Sahelian/Saharan zone- both
incubator and transmission belt of people,
culture and material to different parts
of Africa. It is this that lays the foundation for
what is to come in the Nile valley and in many of
the kingdoms in the Western parts of Africa.
There is no need to look for pyramids in Guinea
as some sort of litmus test of civilization in
Africa. "The base" - the genesis- is in that
Sahelian/Saharan matrix, and we work forward from
there.

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Ethiop
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These maps are very interesting indeed. alTakruri what are the sources of these maps or is there any one here who have the source of the trading maps above. Thanks Ethiop
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Tyrannohotep
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I wonder if there's any chance that Yam was located somewhere directly south of Nubia, in South Sudan? I don't think much archaeology has been done in that area, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lost kingdom once thrived there that was contemporaneous with Kemet and Kush. Maybe the whole Nile region was laced with kingdoms!
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I wonder if there's any chance that Yam was located somewhere directly south of Nubia, in South Sudan? I don't think much archaeology has been done in that area, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lost kingdom once thrived there that was contemporaneous with Kemet and Kush. Maybe the whole Nile region was laced with kingdoms!

It's late over here, and going to sleep.

I will leave some info.


 -

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yam.htm


http://nubie-international.fr/accueil.php?a=page163065&lang=en


http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/studying/undergraduate/courses/coursehandbooks/ARCL3050_ArchNubia.pdf

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Very interesting!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethiop:

These maps are very interesting indeed. alTakruri what are the sources of these maps or is there any one here who have the source of the trading maps above. Thanks Ethiop

I did that so long ago I can't remember where
I found them and the jpg or gif names reflect what
they show so a search can't find the sources either.

Sorry

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HidayaAkade
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Cool
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Ethiop
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Okay Thanks. These images are like gold. I found one but the others, well no luck. But Thanks again
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mena7
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The map African trades routes in ancient times was from Mustafa Gadalla book Exiled Egyptian.

Some scholar states at one point Nubia included West Africa. Other scholar states Punt was in West Africa. According to King juba I of Mauretania there was an underground link between the Niger river and the Nile river. king juba statement seems symbolic. The Egyptian and Nubian traded with the people of the Niger river. The Soninke, Mande, Yoruba and Ibo people of the Niger River were also one of the many tribes of Ancient Egypt.

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Djehuti
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EXPLORATIONS OF HERKHUF

[Herkhuf, an Egyptian nobleman, served the Egyptian Pharaoh Mernera (Sixth Dynasty, 2340-2160 BC), traveling extensively through Nubia.]

"With the increase of Egyptian prestige in Nubia, the way was open for exploration into the far south and foremost in this was the nobleman Herkhuf, who may be considered the first explorer of whom history has any real record. ...Herkhuf was sent by Mernera to lead an expedition to open up communications with Yam, a country of whose location we are as yet uncertain, but which was certainly south of the Second Cataract; in fact, some authorities believe it was as far south as Darfur. This expedition, which was absent for seven months, was such a success that Herkhuf was soon sent on another journey through Nubia, taking what he describes as the "Elephantine Road," which has been identified as the desert road starting on the west bank at Aswan which runs some distance out, but more or less parallel with the river. This road is still used extensively at the present time in the driving up of great herds of camels from the Sudan destined for the meat markets of Egypt. Herkhuf was understandably proud of his success as an explorer, for with reference to his second expedition he records that "Never before had any noble or caravan-leader who went forth to Yam done this."

"After an interval, apparently of some years, Herkhuf undertook his third journey into the unknown south. This time he took a different route which he describes as the "What" road; it appears to have been farther out in the western desert, probably the Daraw-Kurkur track which is still used by express caravans today. It passes through the oasis of Kurkur, and here Herkhuf learned that the Chief of Yam had passed that way shortly before him, with the intention of waging war against the Temehu or Libyan inhabitants of the Kharga Oasis. For some reason not explained, Herkhuf felt it his duty to follow and act as a peacemaker, in which undertaking he succeeded, for he apparently enjoyed considerable influence and prestige with the people of Yam, who gave him a military escort on his return journey to Egypt. This escort was probably very necessary, for Herkhuf came back with 300 donkeys laden with valuable products of the south, such as incense, ebony, and ivory, which would have been welcome plunder for the inhabitants of Lower Nubia, through whose land he had to pass.

"Herkhuf's fourth and last journey was made after the death of his royal master Mernera who had been succeeded by the boy king Pepi II. During his return journey he wrote to the king informing him that he was bringing a dancing dwarf from the land of Yam. This news delighted the young pharaoh and he sent a letter to the explorer saying: "Come northward to the court immediately, and bring with you the pygmy which you have brought living, in good condition and healthy, from the land of ghosts, for the amusement of the king, to rejoice and gladden his heart. When the pygmy is in the vessel, appoint trustworthy people to be on either side of him. Take care that he does not fall in the water. When he is sleeping at night, appoint trustworthy people to sleep beside him in his cabin, and make an inspection ten times a night. My Majesty desires to see this pygmy more than the gifts of Sinai and of Punt." There is some question as to whether Herkhuf's gift to the king was a real pygmy or just a dwarf, for the translation of the ancient Egyptian word is uncertain. If indeed it was a real pygmy, it would suggest that the expedition must have penetrated far into the southern Sudan, or alternatively that the little captive had been obtained through barter in the land of Yam."

Emery, Walter B. 1967. "Outline of Nubian History, Part I: The Archaic Period and the Old Kingdom, c. 3100-2160 BC." Lost Land Emerging. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 177-179


^ From the above information it can be ascertained that Yam's likely location was somewhere to the south past the 2nd cataract going towards Punt and probably bordering the Libyan Temehu to their west as seen by their apparent conflict with them.

It's interesting that references to Yam disappear at around the same time that Kushite kingdom of Kerma arose. It's little doubt Yam was replaced or assimilated by Kerma.

 -

The above map which Tukuler originally posted comes from www.egypt-tehuti.org which is a website on Egypt's African identity though apparently you have to register to enter.

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Ethiop
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quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
The map African trades routes in ancient times was from Mustafa Gadalla book Exiled Egyptian.

Some scholar states at one point Nubia included West Africa. Other scholar states Punt was in West Africa. According to King juba I of Mauretania there was an underground link between the Niger river and the Nile river. king juba statement seems symbolic. The Egyptian and Nubian traded with the people of the Niger river. The Soninke, Mande, Yoruba and Ibo people of the Niger River were also one of the many tribes of Ancient Egypt.

Thanks for the info. My inquire is genuine okay. What info and source to back this claim the Egyptian and Nubian traded with the people of the Niger river. I have been trying to find archeology reports about this but no success. The Soninke and Mande I do understand from the ancient Saharrans but the other well thats a different story. What is going on with your home page Thanks
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Ethiop
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
EXPLORATIONS OF HERKHUF

[Herkhuf, an Egyptian nobleman, served the Egyptian Pharaoh Mernera (Sixth Dynasty, 2340-2160 BC), traveling extensively through Nubia.]

"With the increase of Egyptian prestige in Nubia, the way was open for exploration into the far south and foremost in this was the nobleman Herkhuf, who may be considered the first explorer of whom history has any real record. ...Herkhuf was sent by Mernera to lead an expedition to open up communications with Yam, a country of whose location we are as yet uncertain, but which was certainly south of the Second Cataract; in fact, some authorities believe it was as far south as Darfur. This expedition, which was absent for seven months, was such a success that Herkhuf was soon sent on another journey through Nubia, taking what he describes as the "Elephantine Road," which has been identified as the desert road starting on the west bank at Aswan which runs some distance out, but more or less parallel with the river. This road is still used extensively at the present time in the driving up of great herds of camels from the Sudan destined for the meat markets of Egypt. Herkhuf was understandably proud of his success as an explorer, for with reference to his second expedition he records that "Never before had any noble or caravan-leader who went forth to Yam done this."

"After an interval, apparently of some years, Herkhuf undertook his third journey into the unknown south. This time he took a different route which he describes as the "What" road; it appears to have been farther out in the western desert, probably the Daraw-Kurkur track which is still used by express caravans today. It passes through the oasis of Kurkur, and here Herkhuf learned that the Chief of Yam had passed that way shortly before him, with the intention of waging war against the Temehu or Libyan inhabitants of the Kharga Oasis. For some reason not explained, Herkhuf felt it his duty to follow and act as a peacemaker, in which undertaking he succeeded, for he apparently enjoyed considerable influence and prestige with the people of Yam, who gave him a military escort on his return journey to Egypt. This escort was probably very necessary, for Herkhuf came back with 300 donkeys laden with valuable products of the south, such as incense, ebony, and ivory, which would have been welcome plunder for the inhabitants of Lower Nubia, through whose land he had to pass.

"Herkhuf's fourth and last journey was made after the death of his royal master Mernera who had been succeeded by the boy king Pepi II. During his return journey he wrote to the king informing him that he was bringing a dancing dwarf from the land of Yam. This news delighted the young pharaoh and he sent a letter to the explorer saying: "Come northward to the court immediately, and bring with you the pygmy which you have brought living, in good condition and healthy, from the land of ghosts, for the amusement of the king, to rejoice and gladden his heart. When the pygmy is in the vessel, appoint trustworthy people to be on either side of him. Take care that he does not fall in the water. When he is sleeping at night, appoint trustworthy people to sleep beside him in his cabin, and make an inspection ten times a night. My Majesty desires to see this pygmy more than the gifts of Sinai and of Punt." There is some question as to whether Herkhuf's gift to the king was a real pygmy or just a dwarf, for the translation of the ancient Egyptian word is uncertain. If indeed it was a real pygmy, it would suggest that the expedition must have penetrated far into the southern Sudan, or alternatively that the little captive had been obtained through barter in the land of Yam."

Emery, Walter B. 1967. "Outline of Nubian History, Part I: The Archaic Period and the Old Kingdom, c. 3100-2160 BC." Lost Land Emerging. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 177-179


^ From the above information it can be ascertained that Yam's likely location was somewhere to the south past the 2nd cataract going towards Punt and probably bordering the Libyan Temehu to their west as seen by their apparent conflict with them.

It's interesting that references to Yam disappear at around the same time that Kushite kingdom of Kerma arose. It's little doubt Yam was replaced or assimilated by Kerma.

 -

The above map which Tukuler originally posted comes from www.egypt-tehuti.org which is a website on Egypt's African identity though apparently you have to register to enter.

Thanks Djehuti. Yes I am familiar with Herkhuf trade expedition for some time. As a matter of fact I have often wonder about Egypt trading routes into inner Africa but it was always a Myster. However since finding this post by alTakruri which has influenced me to contemplate greatly about Egypt trade with inner Africa. It is facinating to me.

One of the maps I did find was the map you just posted by Moustafa Gadalla. So I will register on the site your have given me and read more about his facts and sources.

There is one research report WADI HOWAR Settlement Area and Thoroughfare at the Southern Margin of the Libyan Desert by Dr. Stefan Kröpelin and Dr. Werner Schuck.

quotes


Geoscientific investigations have shown that during the early Holocene this wadi was the Nile's most important tributary from the Sahara

and

A once ecologically favored area of settlement and communication route between the inner regions of Africa and the Nile valley, Wadi Howar bears abundant prehistoric sites providing evidence of important population movements and interregional cultural contacts.

There needs to be more archeology research reports on this matter. I have a feeling more pieces to this puzzles are still lying uncoverd Thanks

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

^ From the above information it can be ascertained that Yam's likely location was somewhere to the south past the 2nd cataract going towards Punt and probably bordering the Libyan Temehu to their west as seen by their apparent conflict with them.

It's interesting that references to Yam disappear at around the same time that Kushite kingdom of Kerma arose. It's little doubt Yam was replaced or assimilated by Kerma.

.

It's interesting at the time the OP report was
released you seemed convinced by this one
piece of evidence that Yam was in the desert.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Fascinating find nontheless!! So after all this time Yam was in the Western Desert. Many scholars once thought it was located south in Nubia and in fact was area of land that became Kush.

.

When doubts were raised you did modify
quote:
Is it not possible that what they discovered was a trading post constructed and managed by the people of Yam until Egyptians took it over?
.

So I guess what I'm wondering is what exactly brought
you back around to the most parsimonious view that Yam
was one of the kingdoms along the Nile south of TaSeti/Wawat?

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Tukuler
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Centric long ago posted this interesting map locating
major Nehesi territories and the land of Temeh to boot.

 -

At first, some of Temeh appears too far south but then
Joseph O. Vogel published a map accompanying an article
by Kay Williamson based on Peter Behrens locating Tamazight
(Berber) language origins at Darfur just north of Jebel Marra
where Meidob is now spoken.

 -

Behrens work dates to 1984. I've asked a few times for
more up to date info on the place where Tamazight began
but no one yet has offered anything from any linguist.

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Tukuler
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quote:

EXPLORATIONS OF HERKHUF

... Yam, a country of whose location we are as yet uncertain, but which was certainly south of the Second Cataract; in fact, some authorities believe it was as far south as Darfur.

...

... the "What" road; it appears to have been farther out in the western desert, probably the Daraw-Kurkur track which is still used by express caravans today. It passes through the oasis of Kurkur, and here Herkhuf learned that the Chief of Yam had passed that way shortly before him, with the intention of waging war against the Temehu or Libyan inhabitants of the Kharga Oasis. For some reason not explained, Herkhuf felt it his duty to follow and act as a peacemaker, in which undertaking he succeeded, for he apparently enjoyed considerable influence and prestige with the people of Yam, who gave him a military escort on his return journey to Egypt.

.

I don't know about Harkhuf learning in Kurkur about
Yam's king marching on Temeh and Kharga as Temeh
also seems wrong to me.

Though this map places Yam between the 2nd and 3rd
cataracts it does correctly place Kurkur, Kharga, and
the Wehat Road.
 -
Kharga is too far north, being west of Egypt's 2nd/3rd
nome for Nehesi to be warring there within Pharaoh
territory. Kurkur is in Wawat and far off track of Wehat Road


quote:
Harkhuf's Third Journey

His majesty now sent me a third time to Yam;
I went forth from - - - upon the Wehat (wh'.t) Road, and I found the ruler of Yam [line 11]
going to the land of Temeh (tmh) to smite Temeh [line 12]
as far as the western corner of heaven. I went forth after him to the land of Temeh, [line 13]
and I pacified him, until he praised all the gods for the king's sake. [line 14]

 -


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Firewall
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Temehu and Tehenu.


http://www.worldhistoria.com/temehu-and-tehenu_topic125561.html

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Ethiop
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Has any one here read A Pharaonic trail ... ? on the Libyan Desert Archeology site. Interesting h

quote
"The main inscription dates from the 27th year of King Khufu, while the second from the reign of his son, Redjedef, both of the 4th Dynasty, about 2400 bc. One inscription names the spot as "Redjedef's water mountain", indicating it's status as a possible water depot".

 -


 -




Here is the site info

http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/ancientroute.htm

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:

Temehu and Tehenu.

http://www.worldhistoria.com/temehu-and-tehenu_topic125561.html

.

Temehu and Tehenu are not synonyms.

Tehenu were the first Eastern Libyan people on record.
They lived in the delta and westward and probably were
the "original delta Egyptians." (link to Delta: Tjehenu or Romitu? thread)

Temehu were the next noted Eastern Libyans. They enter
history as dwellers of a Temeh land within reach of Yam
-- per Harkhuf's autobiography (snippet posted above) --
west of southern Lower Nubia/northern Upper Nubia.

Much later in time Temehu becomes generic for all Eastern Libyans:
  • Tehhenu (west of the delta and in Fayum)
  • Temehhu (west of Egypt below 25° north lattitude down to Nubia)
  • Rebu (west of the Tehhenu)
  • Meshwesh
  • Esbet
  • Beken
  • Kehek
  • Hes
  • Imukehek
  • Shai
  • Seped
  • Ekbet

More at Pre700CE Northern Africans from historic nongenetic sources


Despite Temehu living at the same latitude as Nubia they
were not Nehesu. The first historical account of Temeh
juxtaposes it against a list of Nehesi ethnies.

 -

See => TA-NEHESI: primary Old Kingdom docs @ ESR.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

I wonder if there's any chance that Yam was located somewhere directly south of Nubia, in South Sudan? I don't think much archaeology has been done in that area, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lost kingdom once thrived there that was contemporaneous with Kemet and Kush. Maybe the whole Nile region was laced with kingdoms!

OK that's that O'Connor theory of a 5th-6th cataract Yam.

In my opinion a location that far south for Yam makes the
invasion of Temehh, land of the TMHHW/Tjemehu/Tamahou,
an unlikely and quite major expedition, surely not one the
ruler of Yam could be disuaded from undertaking due to a
merchant's qualms unless considerable fiscal income was at
stake. Of course Harkhuf was no ordinary merchant. He was
the kind with tight political connexion.

This Temehh is likely to comprise the regions between and
surrounding the oases of Kurkur (west of the 1st cataract),
Dunqul (southwest of the 1st cataract) and Salima (west of
the Dal cataract). This Temehh was the source of the timhhy
stones. In the misnamed "Harris" papyrus they're called the
"timhhy stones of Wawat."

Harkhuf tells us he was on the Wehat Road when he hurried up
to catch the ruler of Yam. Wehat (southern oasis/garden) Road
starts at Kharga (Wehat-rst) Oasis west of Thebes running SSW
to Salima Oasis. There was another route starting at Qubbet el
Hawa (~Elephantine) going through Kurkur and Dunqul with its
terminal junction at Salima. From Salima the Wehat Road goes
on to Kerma.

From the above I surmise that Yam was immediately south of
Wawat and extended at least to Kerma and possibly further
on to Kawa. I'm sorry not to find a map online showing all
the above place names but the maps in Baines and Malek's
Ancient Egypt has them all as well as the trade routes.

For etymology on the root tmhh see Wally's notes (clickable
link)
.

The area suggested by "other scholars" below is Bayuda or Butana not Yam.


quote:
Other scholars see Elephantine as the starting and end point for each caravan, with the trade goods then being shipped between this southern city and the more northerly capital. They believe that Yam lay further south, perhaps on or near the Shendi Reach of the Nile (above the fifth cataract, near where it divides into the White and Blue Nile).

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Tukuler
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quote:

Sai Island

about 100 miles north of the Third Cataract of the Nile (and about 470 km. south of Aswan)

Here is the site of a large Neolithic settlement (dating probably from about 5000-4000 B.C.); the evidence for this was revealed in aerial photographs shown at a meeting in Lille, France, in 1994. By now it has probably been partly excavated. This would seem to be the largest, earliest "city" known in Africa (including Egypt). Here, too, is the site of a large Bronze Age town, probably dating as early as 2500 B.C. It may have been the capital of the "Kingdom of Yam" mentioned in Egyptian documents of the Sixth Dynasty. By about 2000 B.C. it seems to have been part of the early kingdom of Kush, centered at Kerma, and it remained probably the chief northern city of that state (ca. 2000-1500 B.C.), until conquered by the Egyptian pharaohs in early Dynasty 18. It was evidently called "Sha'a" (from which the modern name Sai derives); it had its own kings, whose tombs lay on the west side of the townsite and which are surrounded by hundreds of other smaller tombs. After it was conquered by the Egyptians, it became the site of an Egyptian fort and town until the Egyptians withdrew northward from the region about 1150 B.C.

Excavator:
Francis Geus, Lille, France



.

But does Geus vacillate?

quote:

Wawat, Irtjet, Zatjou, Kaau and Yam. Whatever the precise extension and location of those territorial units, their existence seems all the more indisputable since Herkhouf, who apparently traveled at least four times through Nubia, explains in his biography how, on his third journey, he had to pacify the ruler of Yam who was chasing the desert Temehu, how, on his second journey, Zatjou and Irtjet had the same ruler whom he visited in his residence, and how, on its third journey, Irtjet, Zatjou and Wawat had unified under the authority of one ruler whose threat he had to face, with success thanks to an escort provided to him by the ruler of Yam (Roccati 1982 : 187-220).


It also appears from Herkhouf's account that Yam was not only the southernmost of those territorial units but that it was for the Egyptians their favored trading partner. This is why, at the light of what is now known of the archaeology of the Kerma basin, most scholars agree to identify it to Kerma and its territory, and to locate the four other units north of it. Trying to evaluate their territorial limits would be too debatable (supra), but it seems reasonable to think that Wawat, Irtjet and Zatjou shared a territory covering the former A-Group area and to suggest that Kaau was centered around Sai island, which archaeological remains (Geus 1996) and later inscriptions point out as a major centre at that time.


Francis Geus
The Middle Nile Valley from Later Prehistory to the end of the New Kingdom
Tenth International Conference of the International Society for Nubian Studies
September 9-14, 2002 - Rome, Italy



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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

^ From the above information it can be ascertained that Yam's likely location was somewhere to the south past the 2nd cataract going towards Punt and probably bordering the Libyan Temehu to their west as seen by their apparent conflict with them.

It's interesting that references to Yam disappear at around the same time that Kushite kingdom of Kerma arose. It's little doubt Yam was replaced or assimilated by Kerma.

.

It's interesting at the time the OP report was
released you seemed convinced by this one
piece of evidence that Yam was in the desert.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Fascinating find nontheless!! So after all this time Yam was in the Western Desert. Many scholars once thought it was located south in Nubia and in fact was area of land that became Kush.

.

When doubts were raised you did modify
quote:
Is it not possible that what they discovered was a trading post constructed and managed by the people of Yam until Egyptians took it over?
.

So I guess what I'm wondering is what exactly brought
you back around to the most parsimonious view that Yam
was one of the kingdoms along the Nile south of TaSeti/Wawat?

From the evidence I always thought Yam was in a general location that was southwest i.e. south of Lower Nubia but west of the Nile. I have no idea about its exact border areas but you do raise a point that the center of the kingdom could very well have been along the Nile while its borders stretched into Temeh.

quote:
Centric long ago posted this interesting map locating
major Nehesi territories and the land of Temeh to boot.

 -

At first, some of Temeh appears too far south but then
Joseph O. Vogel published a map accompanying an article
by Kay Williamson based on Peter Behrens locating Tamazight
(Berber) language origins at Darfur just north of Jebel Marra
where Meidob is now spoken.

 -

Behrens work dates to 1984. I've asked a few times for
more up to date info on the place where Tamazight began
but no one yet has offered anything from any linguist.

Ah, that sounds right! I am also reminded of past archaeology showing connections between so-called C-Group and Temehu as well. As far as the linguistic evidence goes phonetically Berber has more in common with Egyptian yet grammatically and even phonologically its features are more aligned with Chadic. We also know that many Saharan Tamazig genetically have much in common with Beja people, though as to the Darfur region being the source I don't know. I find it puzzling that Darfur today is predominantly Nilo-Saharan speaking.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:

EXPLORATIONS OF HERKHUF

... Yam, a country of whose location we are as yet uncertain, but which was certainly south of the Second Cataract; in fact, some authorities believe it was as far south as Darfur.

...

... the "What" road; it appears to have been farther out in the western desert, probably the Daraw-Kurkur track which is still used by express caravans today. It passes through the oasis of Kurkur, and here Herkhuf learned that the Chief of Yam had passed that way shortly before him, with the intention of waging war against the Temehu or Libyan inhabitants of the Kharga Oasis. For some reason not explained, Herkhuf felt it his duty to follow and act as a peacemaker, in which undertaking he succeeded, for he apparently enjoyed considerable influence and prestige with the people of Yam, who gave him a military escort on his return journey to Egypt.

.

I don't know about Harkhuf learning in Kurkur about
Yam's king marching on Temeh and Kharga as Temeh
also seems wrong to me.

Though this map places Yam between the 2nd and 3rd
cataracts it does correctly place Kurkur, Kharga, and
the Wehat Road.
 -
Kharga is too far north, being west of Egypt's 2nd/3rd
nome for Nehesi to be warring there within Pharaoh
territory. Kurkur is in Wawat and far off track of Wehat Road


quote:
Harkhuf's Third Journey

His majesty now sent me a third time to Yam;
I went forth from - - - upon the Wehat (wh'.t) Road, and I found the ruler of Yam [line 11]
going to the land of Temeh (tmh) to smite Temeh [line 12]
as far as the western corner of heaven. I went forth after him to the land of Temeh, [line 13]
and I pacified him, until he praised all the gods for the king's sake. [line 14]

 -


Perhaps the actual oasis they referred to was Silma oasis per truthcentric's map(??)

 -

Or is it still too far north?

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

So I guess what I'm wondering is what exactly brought
you back around to the most parsimonious view that Yam
was one of the kingdoms along the Nile south of TaSeti/Wawat?

.

From the evidence I always thought Yam was in a general location that was southwest i.e. south of Lower Nubia but west of the Nile. I have no idea about its exact border areas but you do raise a point that the center of the kingdom could very well have been along the Nile while its borders stretched into Temeh.

quote:
Centric long ago posted this interesting map locating
major Nehesi territories and the land of Temeh to boot.

 -

At first, some of Temeh appears too far south but then
Joseph O. Vogel published a map accompanying an article
by Kay Williamson based on Peter Behrens locating Tamazight
(Berber) language origins at Darfur just north of Jebel Marra
where Meidob [a Nilo-Saharan language] is now spoken.

 -

Behrens work dates to 1984. I've asked a few times for
more up to date info on the place where Tamazight began
but no one yet has offered anything from any linguist.

Ah, that sounds right! I am also reminded of past archaeology showing connections between so-called C-Group and Temehu as well. As far as the linguistic evidence goes phonetically Berber has more in common with Egyptian yet grammatically and even phonologically its features are more aligned with Chadic. We also know that many Saharan Tamazig genetically have much in common with Beja people, though as to the Darfur region being the source I don't know. I find it puzzling that Darfur today is predominantly Nilo-Saharan speaking.
.

Just to be clear I don't think Yam stretched
into Temeh. Primary docs clearly distinguish
Yam from Temeh. I don't necessarily see TC's
map presenting hard and fast borders rather
than territorial approximations. Maybe he'll
tell us more about that map from its source?

Also I don't see the need for A or C groups
anymore. We know the former is TaSeti and
the latter Wawat. Same for Nubia when talking
about peoples or polities when the specifics
keep us from confusion. For me, Nubia is best
reserved for geography to describe extreme
south Egypt and northern Sudan or modern
peoples known as Nubians.

The following addressed not so much to DJ as
to the forum. Academia translates (Ta)Nehesu
as Nubia(ns). Problem is there were Nehesu
living well beyond Nubia. Medjay and certain
Intyw (Antiu/Troglodytes) for instance.

This brings me around to Temehu and C Group.
Once it's understood Wawat including Wawat's
provinces, Irtjet, Satju, etc., was peopled by
C Groupers then clearly Temehu have not a
thing to do with being C Groupers. As far as my
researching has lead me, at no time during the
history of Ancient Egypt were Temehu ever Nehesu.

 -
Figures 37 and 19 from Förster2006 Abu Ballas Trail
Painted bowl, dated to the First Intermediate Period,
from a tomb at the Qubbet el-Hawa near Aswan and a
Rock engraving at Abu Ballas showing a ‘Libyan’ (?)
hunter with two dogs chasing a gazelle (photos: R. Kuper).


Again primary records from that era and later
distinctly reckon Temeh as no part of those
polities associated with Nehesi people.

Please check out the EgyptSearchReloaded thread
TA-NEHESI: primary Old Kingdom docs

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:
Harkhuf's Third Journey

[..........] His majesty now sent me a third time to Yam;
[line 11] I went forth from - - - upon the Wehat (wh'.t) Road, and I found the ruler of Yam
[line 12] going to the land of Temeh (tmh) to smite Temeh
[line 13] as far as the western corner of heaven. I went forth after him to the land of Temeh,
[line 14] and I pacified him, until he praised all the gods for the king's sake.

 -

Perhaps the actual oasis they referred to was Silma oasis per truthcentric's map(??)

 -

Or is it still too far north?

Nope.

I'd agree Selima Oasis is the most likely place
Harkhuf heard about HeqaYam's Temeh campaign.

Wish I could post Baines&Malek's oasis trails map
but will search online for a suitable substitute.

This one doesn't show the trails and leaves out Kurkur.

 -
http://pharaoh.heavengames.com/strategy/trade/oldkingdom.shtml

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Has anybody read this book?
The Golden Age of the Moor.

I am reading some of for the first time,well at least the ancient libyan parts so far.


Here it talks about the Berbers,libyans,temehou,adyrmachidae etc..
Alot of info about early libyans or berbers.

PAGES 109 TO 131 AND BEYOND,AND CHECK OUT PAGES 114 AND PAGES BEFORE THAT.
In fact check out the whole book after you read the pages i mentioned.
The Golden Age of the Moor

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Firewall
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Anybody has a list of more updated books that deal with berbers and this time focuses on ancient libyans?

Right now i am doing more research on them.


The Ancient Berber Tribes of Eastern Libya:

http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm

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Firewall
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This should be next after the list of the eastern libyans.

One incorrect info found in the book so far,the byzantines never controlled nubia.

quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Has anybody read this book?
The Golden Age of the Moor.

I am reading some of it for the first time,well at least the ancient libyan parts so far.


Here it talks about the Berbers,libyans,temehou,adyrmachidae etc..
Alot of info about early libyans or berbers.

PAGES 109 TO 131 AND BEYOND,AND CHECK OUT PAGES 114 AND PAGES BEFORE THAT.
In fact check out the whole book after you read the pages i mentioned.
The Golden Age of the Moor


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Anybody has a list of more updated books that deal with berbers and this time focuses on ancient libyans?

Right now i am doing more research on them.


The Ancient Berber Tribes of Eastern Libya:

http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm

Culture and Customs of Libya
By Jason Morgan, Toyin Falola


http://books.google.com/books?id=R65iYMCuK6gC&pg=PA126&dq=libyan+berber&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aTLYUbDTCa-N0QGRvoHIDg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

___________________________________

Libya
edited by Helen Chapin Metz

http://books.google.com/books?id=aRNVYtHo63IC&pg=PA22&dq=libyan+berber&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aTLYUbDTCa-N0QGRvoHIDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=libyan%20berber&f=false

____________________________________________

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Firewall
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I will take a look,thank you.
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