posted
The Ottoman Turks ruled North Africa and were largely responsible for the founding of modern Egypt. Many are probably unaware that the Ottoman Turks as well as the earlier Mamluks were in large part people of the Eastern European or the Balkan states/countries. This region of Muslims included a considerable part of Greek Macedonia, and places now and before called Albania, Yugoslavia or Serbia and Bosnia, etc. The Ottoman Empire began in the 1500s clearly lasted until the early 20th. It reached its height in the 16th and 17th centuries.
Ottoman ruler Muhammed Ali "Father of modern Egypt" was born in 1769 in Greece of Albanian parents. (He died 1849.)
Fuad I descendant of the Muhammad Ali ruled as King over Egypt and Sudan. His daughter was the recent Princess Fawzia of Iran.
The Balkan Europeans often blonde and blue eyed Slavs or darker haired Greeks settled North Africa in the millions between the 14th and 19th century, as soldiers, slaves, pirates and merchants. Just a earlier people from Syria to Iran had done during the Abbasid era.
A few 100,000s of thousands of "Turks" many "blue-eyed" were noted or recorded by numerous colonialist writers just in northern Egypt (Cairo and Alexandria) alone.
In the 1860s a Lucie A. Duff Gordon wrote of the appearance of Turkish soldiers in Egypt that were fair and "blue-eyed" and who “contrast curiously with the brown Fellaheen.” in Letters from Egypt 1863-1865 by p. 351-352 published by Elibron Classics.
The coastal Berber regions were especially effected by the presence of these peoples and especially influenced by the prolific "white slave trade". It was during this period of time Berber tribesman were said to have "come down" from their mountain strongholds to purchase women coming from places as far away as the Caucasus.
Old woman with child in Kabylia
The Ottoman presence is particularly noticable among the group of "Berbers" below.
There is little point in denying the Greek and Slavic impress in modern North Africans as has been done until recently, as the study of genetics suggests, they are the people who today biologically dominate coastal north Africa.
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posted
Balkanization as seen in Coastal Berber Woman's Culture
Balkan women
During the "Turkish" Ottoman Empire as well Aegean and Barbary pirates or renegade "Turks" controlled the North African ports such as Algiers mostly under Ottoman supervision and brought in 100,000s of thousands of Euroepan women from the Balkans and from the regions around the Caucasus where were dark-haired white woman prized for their beauty and voluptousness. These regions included the non-Muslim areas of Circassia, Armenia and Georgia. The trade continued up until the 20th century.
Thus we read in a 1902 book in a Chapter entitled "Slavery among the Moors" - “Another way in which the Europeans have been frequently outwitted is by the importation of Circassian and other slaves and eunuchs from Turkey via Gibraltar or Algiers in foreign vessels, usually entered as members of the family of their master. Notwithstanding the nominal prohibition of the trade in the Turkish Empire, there are houses on the Bosporus where young children are trained for the hareems by instruction in music and dancing, and even in English and French, as well as in the degrading arts by which the women of these lands endeavour to secure the favour of their lords. These, too, are sometimes brought to Morocco, where they fetch high prices, if offered at all to the public ; as much, sometimes, as a couple of hundred pounds or more, of which they are very proud. The mother of the present sultan was one of these women, bought from the hareem of a well-known pasha of Cairo by a friend of mine — along with two others whom he kept for himself — and presented by him to the late sultan, with whom she speedily became a favourite, securing for her son a continuation of favour which gained him the throne. This is often the case with white concubines, who are in great demand, even if natives. Consequently white girls are frequently kidnapped, and in time of war openly sold, to be trained by dealers in this special article, but though, if report is to be credited, some do occasionally yield to the temptation to sell their own daughters by slave-mothers, such a proceeding is not only illegal, but in the highest degree abhorrent in native eyes.”
The "white slave trade" and apparent unquenchable thirst for European woman actually has its roots in the Roman and Neo-Roman era when Moorish rulers like Massinissa, Gildo and Nubel took concubines. Claudian the Roman complained about the demands of the Moors or Mauri of Numidia in coastal Algeria.
Claudian said about Gildo, "When tired of each noblest matron, he hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Gildo's father was Nubel who also had concubines and Jugurtha himself was son of a concubine.
These famous Berber rulers in Mauritania (Gildo, Jugurtha, Nubel, Masikzel, Massinissa) Mauritania are mentioned by Procopius 6th c.who like Corripus of the same period says the early chiefs or kings of the Mauri who he said were "black, unlike the Vandals" The Vandals are also lived in Mauritania. These Mauri were the first people outside of Egypt to bring "white" concubines to North Africa or Maghreb.
By the 10th century Ibn Butlan an Christian doctor is born in Muslim-ruled Iraq (d. 1038). He wrote of the Berber woman coming into Iraq of the Sanhaja, Masmuda Ketama who in fact encompassed three major closely related Berber populations occupying coastal north Africa.
Butlan commented, "Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service..."
Butlan goes on to describe the Beja woman south of Egypt as "golden" complexion.
Ibn Butlan being a physician was accustomed to examining woman coming from all parts of the Middle East and Africa. He comments describing each group in detail as if he is talking of breeds of cattle or slabs of meat (which he apparently was).
Early Berbers were a strongly matrifocal and matrilineal people but because of the impact of Slavic, Greek and other European populations during the Ottoman and earlier Muslim periods, the Berbers of teh coast as among fair-skinned Kabylia are the most patriarchal in North Africa.
The southernmost tip of Balkan peninsula is further south than the boot of Italy. As with many peoples of the Aegean and Sicily, Balkan peoples made their way to north Africa in recent times.
Gabriel Camps a French specialist on Kabylia in Berberes Aux marge de L'Histoire (1981) found close cultural and biological connection between the people of Greece and the modern fair skinned Kabyles. He claimed jewelry, pottery, palm prints and blood groups of the region reflected this connection. Some of it may have been due to Sicilians of the iron age. However, the closeness of modern Berber dress to those of mainly Slavic originated populations of the Balkans including modern Macedonia also suggest undeniably recent influence.
As for the the ignored dark-skinned Kabyles described as living in their "Numidian" style huts (magalia), whom some writers of the colonial era apparently considered the dominant Berber population of Kabylia, - their origins are another story.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: There is little point in denying the Greek and Slavic impress in modern North Africans as has been done until recently, as the study of genetics suggests, they are the people who today biologically dominate coastal north Africa.
Evergreen Writes:
While I agree that the Ottoman Empire had a cultural impact on North Africa I find little to support a substantive genetic impact.
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I believe the coastal North Africans have always had a taste for white meat and some have chided me for saying it but the evidence speaks for itself. White Africa (hyperlink)
It can't be proved to go as far back as the Bronze age but I think it just may well do so. There is pictorial documentaion for an abnormally (by African standards) light skin set of people in coastal North Africa that goes back to 1500 BCE.
Though never dominant or the norm in ancient days clear up to the 8th century CE, they did exist.
Noted as indigenous from the earliest written records coastal North Africans are also noted as the lightest of the ancient world's dark peoples.
What would be interesting is a listing of the Eurasian non-African mtDNAs and their specificities alligned with records of known extra-African alliances of North African men.
I'd suppose we'd find
* the Sea People's females, * the Greek colonists of Cyrenaica's females, * the Poeni's females (indistinguishable from Jewish, Syrian, and Arab females), * Byzantine females, * Iberian females, * miscellaneous SE European females.
From history we know Juba married a daughter of Antony and Cleopatra.
Septimius Severus married a Syrian.
There's a record of Syrian women indiscriminantly doled out to Maurs and "Ethiopians" as war spoils.
Iberian women all through time but historically so after Islamization.
SE European slave concubines after Islamization.
Barbary corsair pirate booty (pun intended) ranging as far as Scotland ending just over a hundred years ago.
Italian and French women since colonization.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ... "Turks" ... brought in 100,000s of thousands of Euroepan women from the Balkans and from the regions around the Caucasus where were dark-haired white woman prized for their beauty and voluptousness. These regions included the non-Muslim areas of Circassia, Armenia and Georgia. The trade continued up until the 20th century.
. . . .
These, too, are sometimes brought to Morocco, where they fetch high prices, if offered at all to the public ; as much, sometimes, as a couple of hundred pounds or more, of which they are very proud.
... white concubines, who are in great demand, ...
The "white slave trade" and apparent unquenchable thirst for European woman ...
... Mauri were the first people outside of Egypt to bring "white" concubines to North Africa or Maghreb.
Gabriel ... found close cultural and biological connection between the people of Greece and the modern fair skinned Kabyles. ... Some of it may have been due to Sicilians of the iron age.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I believe the coastal North Africans have always had a taste for white meat and some have chided me for saying it but the evidence speaks for itself.
Evergreen Writes: This is known as exotica.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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I believe the coastal North Africans have always had a taste for white meat and some have chided me for saying it but the evidence speaks for itself. White Africa (hyperlink)
It can't be proved to go as far back as the Bronze age but I think it just may well do so. There is pictorial documentaion for an abnormally (by African standards) light skin set of people in coastal North Africa that goes back to 1500 BCE.
Though never dominant or the norm in ancient days clear up to the 8th century CE, they did exist.
Noted as indigenous from the earliest written records coastal North Africans are also noted as the lightest of the ancient world's dark peoples.
What would be interesting is a listing of the Eurasian non-African mtDNAs and their specificities alligned with records of known extra-African alliances of North African men.
I'd suppose we'd find
* the Sea People's females, * the Greek colonists of Cyrenaica's females, * the Poeni's females (indistinguishable from Jewish, Syrian, and Arab females), * Byzantine females, * Iberian females, * miscellaneous SE European females.
From history we know Juba married a daughter of Antony and Cleopatra.
Septimius Severus married a Syrian.
There's a record of Syrian women indiscriminantly doled out to Maurs and "Ethiopians" as war spoils.
Iberian women all through time but historically so after Islamization.
SE European slave concubines after Islamization.
Barbary corsair pirate booty (pun intended) ranging as far as Scotland ending just over a hundred years ago.
Italian and French women since colonization.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ... "Turks" ... brought in 100,000s of thousands of Euroepan women from the Balkans and from the regions around the Caucasus where were dark-haired white woman prized for their beauty and voluptousness. These regions included the non-Muslim areas of Circassia, Armenia and Georgia. The trade continued up until the 20th century.
.
I agree with almost everything said, but isn't that a picture from the island of Thera. I guess that wouldn't make the men any less African, but I'd be glad to know where the painting was found as the woman appears to be wearing Minoan dress.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I believe the coastal North Africans have always had a taste for white meat and some have chided me for saying it but the evidence speaks for itself. White Africa (hyperlink)
It can't be proved to go as far back as the Bronze age but I think it just may well do so. There is pictorial documentaion for an abnormally (by African standards) light skin set of people in coastal North Africa that goes back to 1500 BCE.
Though never dominant or the norm in ancient days clear up to the 8th century CE, they did exist.
Noted as indigenous from the earliest written records coastal North Africans are also noted as the lightest of the ancient world's dark peoples.
What would be interesting is a listing of the Eurasian non-African mtDNAs and their specificities alligned with records of known extra-African alliances of North African men.
I'd suppose we'd find
* the Sea People's females, * the Greek colonists of Cyrenaica's females, * the Poeni's females (indistinguishable from Jewish, Syrian, and Arab females), * Byzantine females, * Iberian females, * miscellaneous SE European females.
From history we know Juba married a daughter of Antony and Cleopatra.
Septimius Severus married a Syrian.
There's a record of Syrian women indiscriminantly doled out to Maurs and "Ethiopians" as war spoils.
Iberian women all through time but historically so after Islamization.
SE European slave concubines after Islamization.
Barbary corsair pirate booty (pun intended) ranging as far as Scotland ending just over a hundred years ago.
Italian and French women since colonization.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: ... "Turks" ... brought in 100,000s of thousands of Euroepan women from the Balkans and from the regions around the Caucasus where were dark-haired white woman prized for their beauty and voluptousness. These regions included the non-Muslim areas of Circassia, Armenia and Georgia. The trade continued up until the 20th century.
.
I agree with almost everything said, but isn't that a picture from the island of Thera. I guess that wouldn't make the men any less African, but I'd be glad to know where the painting was found as the woman look rather like a Minoan or ancient Aegean.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: There is little point in denying the Greek and Slavic impress in modern North Africans as has been done until recently, as the study of genetics suggests, they are the people who today biologically dominate coastal north Africa.
Evergreen Writes:
While I agree that the Ottoman Empire had a cultural impact on North Africa I find little to support a substantive genetic impact.
The genetic impact was of course mainly on certain groups along the coast. Since most groups away from the coast Berber and Arab-speaking tend to be darker and more African in origin of course one is going to find less "genetic impact". For example I doubt whether Balkan peoples had as much impact on the people below of Jebel Nafusa, Iforas,etc.
Iforas tribe of Mali - a major group of the Zenata, known as Banu Ifren or Yifren in Arabic and earlier as the "Ifuraces" branch of the Mauri in Byzantine times.
Berber of Jebel Nafusa in modern Libya - The Nafuzawa were another major group of the Zenata or Zenetes
Many people have contributed to the population today called "Berber" or "Amazigh" - including the original contributors or Afro-Asiatics represented closely by the people above. But even, they have no doubt recent non Afro-Asiatic ancestry.
Berbers are culturally and biologically diverse similar to the present inhabitants of Egypt and Arabia.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yes the mural detail is Minoan. Since no inscription accompanies it one can't be sure of what it depicts.
My thoughts are that its a scene on littoral North Africa where the "Libyan" males have Aegean females who have been accultured enough to carry atop the head.
posted
But it may just as well be a scene where Minoan males of Keftiu or Semitic origin have Aegean females.
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posted
Minoan is Aegean, its southernmost boundary.
But not to disrupt your thread centered on a much later era, we can discuss the fresco in its full context, as one piece of many which comprise a set, in the thread cited above. Who knows, maybe even Dan will resurface to enrich the discussion with his sometime astute observations.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Minoan is Aegean, its southernmost boundary.
I have been aware of where the Minoan culture is, al Takruri, since the 1970s. Thanks for your help though.
In case you are not aware, the Keftiu were an dark-skinned population in the Aegean and around the Mediterranean and not simply a name for Crete or Cyprus. Keftiu, is in fact the name which Near East historians consider the entire coast of the Aegean (see The Ancient Near East, by W. Hallo and W. Simpson). The word is related to Kizzuwatna and Katpatukka (Cappadocia of Syria) and of course Biblical Kaphturim, suggesting a Semitic, i.e. Afro-semitic origin.
The "Keftiu princes" of Tunip (Daphne) supposedly near Baalbek appear in Egyptian paintings blacker and darker than your "Libyans" portrayed here though probably with a similar hairstyle.
This painting I guess I will have to post on the other blog you are talking about.
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posted
Berber-speakers of Algeria and Morocco are of multivaried appearance and culture due to their diverse originations.
Modern Women of Kabylia in Algeria
Berber of Figuig in Algeria
Like many Berbers, upper class Egyptians and Algerians often show strong biological influences of the original Turks or Turkoman people of Central Asia. The latter once dominated the early Turkish and Muslim world from the Maghreb to Iran and India and as far north as the Khazar and Slavic region.
Woman of the Ait Hadidou of Morocco
Berber girl
Tuareg Berber woman
They included the Kipchacks and other Turkoman people who have also nearly been written out of Muslim and Middle Eastern history - at least in the West.
Women of the Turkoman tribe
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