posted
I'm currently reading a book called 'The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century.' It's an interesting book basically about the Bin Laden family written by Steve Coll and how they came to amass all of their power and wealth. Outside of the political stuff, it goes into a deep history about where the family is from. It talks about his grandfather for a while before moving to his father. The reason I'm posting this is because there have been a few pictures that have sprang up on this website that show Black Arabs around the turn of the century.
Osama's grandfather moved to a location in Arabia known as Hadhramawt because of death threats (the family is oridinally from Yemen). "In truth, the Hadhramawt was not isolated at all, but its deeply religious inhabitants, although capable of gracious hospitality, did not always take kindly to unannounced Christian visitors. For several thousand years, Hadhramis had been migrants, travelers, traders, and entrepreneurs, sailing out in wooden dhows from the port of Mukulla to the East Indies, Zanzibar, Abyssinia (modern Ethiopia), and up the Red Sea to Mecca and Cairo. For a time centuries ago, they and their Sabean Kings enjoyed enormous wealth as caravan monopolists in the global trade in myyrh and frankincense. In Pharoanic Egypt and during the Roman Empire, incense burned from costly frankincense and even more expensive myyrh transformed these oils into two of the most precious commodities on Earth. In Rome, no God could be worshipped properly, no funeral commemorated, no respectable marriage bed entered, without the scent of frankinsense swirling through the room."
The above passage is interesting as it described this Arabian area as being heavily Sabaen. It would lead me to believe that many of its inhabitants may have been dark-skinned. And it seemed the Bin Ladens felt comfortable around these folks, even though they weren't native there and are typically light-skinned. It goes on to say that when trade declined after Christian preachers banned incense for being sold by blasphemers, Hadhramat fell into decline and went into poverty. I don't know how true this statement is, after all they could have traded with East Africans who also sold frankincense. But this was also the pre-Islamic era.
Later it talks about how after Islam arrived, the people of the canyon region moved to other locations as bodyguards, traders, and political notables in foreign lands and would send money back home. He says this practice started in the 7th century and continued all the way into the 20th century, "many prosperous Hadhramis had carried their colonial-era trading wealth back to the canyons to build retirement homes and family compounds. So many returned from Asia and Africa that when a British officer carried out the first formal survery of the gorges during the 1930s, he discovered Swahili and Malay amoung the local languages."
The above passage is very telling and shows the African side of settling and not just the Arabic side. Meaning, we're always told how much East Africa has been influenced by Arabia...here you see Swahili being spoken by enough people during the early early years of the 20th century that it was counted by a British counter.
"As was true elsewhere in the Hadhramawt, Doan's economy relied upon the persistent willingness of local boys and young men to sail away to foreign jobs...and remit money home. It was also common for local men to marry in their teens, emigrate to Ethiopia, or Somalia or Egypt, and stay away for as long as two decades, taking other wives while abroad."
It's interesting how it's described as cultural tradition to essentially emigrate to East Africa and mix with the local population there. Assuming this had gone on for a number of centuries...it would answer a lot of questions. Mostly, who were the Arabs that came over? Why did they come? But an answer that has yet to be answered is...What is this history of finding success in East Africa? Why was it cultural policy to move there and make money? Instead of making money in your own land? You see this today in America for instance when Chinese immigrants move here and work in sweatshops or Chinese resturants and send the money back home to family. They come to America because America has the wealth and resources available to make money. That Arabs relied so heavily on East Africa as a source of wealth and money-making speaks volumes. The Swahili States and their Black rulers for centuries were filthy rich and dominated business in the region.
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there was no name differention as such back in the day. u were either a yemeni or omani or swahili or hindi. if u lived n these areas that was what u were. the african i.d. didnt exist at the time.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: there was no name differention as such back in the day. u were either a yemeni or omani or swahili or hindi. if u lived n these areas that was what u were. the african i.d. didnt exist at the time.
Maybe I'm deceived because of mistranslations but it does seem like there was a differentiation. As King_Scorpion pointed out the "Sudan" apparently had a great deal of control over world trade
How do you explain this:
"In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan"
And this
"his country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan"
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
quote: The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled
page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan
page 98 by Ibn Khaldun talks about Takedda and the rest of the lands of the "veiled people"
quote: In the year 1353, in the days of sultan Abul 'Inan [of Morocco], I went to Biskara on royal business and there encountered the ambassador of the ruler of Takedda at the residence of Yusof al-Muzani, emir of Biskara. He told me about the prosperous state of this city and the continual passage of wayfares and said: "This year there passed through out city on the way to Mali a caravan of merchants from the east containing 12,000 camels." Another [informant] has told me that this is a yearly even. his country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the veiled people
quote: and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....
...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.
posted
how do i explain arab writers using the word sudan for a grop named zafun and saying that they are inder the malian federation. its pretty easy. zafun is a nation whose population are majority dark skin. ill give u one. how do arab writers put india as a sudanic nation? u dont posses these books because they r not translated. is india in the sudan or is there a country called sudan back then or is it merely a ddescription of the nations in a certaion area AS WAS MENTIONED BY IBN KHALDUN AN ARAB in his book muqaddimah which is translated. people can bring the african all day but this concept never existed. what alot of afrocentrist and mustshriqeen as yourself dont look at is the lack of state-boundary divide which is an european invention to control. the architects of this thing know very well the consequences of a so-called african-arab connection. this will bring back the old days because they know this divide never existed. plus any who marki just because someone discusses issues to distinghuish the people they r talking about does not mean they see themselves as something that didnt exist. dont be fooled into thinking that arab speakers, fulani,ewe, and ect never traveled around the continent and formed more groups atop of lmore groups. read this
quote:A man called Lamurudu, at that time, introduced Yoruba to Mecca it was not known as Yoruba, just as Idolatry or Polytheism. One of the offspring of Lamurudu was Oduduwa II? was also alleged to have been King of Gogobiri and Kukawa, which are tribes in Country. The Hausa Were The Yoruba Muslims at that time.
They spoke Yoruba language and Aramic type Script. They later develop their own unique language Called Hausa, still been spoken today.In the fifth century Mecca was the world trade centre. The Yorubas and others, who were considered polytheist were permitted to practice their religion, having migrated a few thousands years before and being the natives of that time. They were called Sabeans and Nabateans. Others worshipped the stone deities, of the Moon God, Allat, his wife and family of daughters.
360 Gods were in The Ka'aba. This was before the time of Muhammad.Oduduwa ? was alleged to be the heir to the throne of Mecca. He went back to the religion of his forefathers during the reign of his father Lamurudu. They decided to bring their people back to the worship of their Ancestors.
So, one night, Asara, a Lamurudu priest was ordered to put idols in The Ka'aba, which at that time was attributed to one Deity, Allat. However because Asara's son was a monotheist he was unable to bear the thought of idols residing in the Ka'aba, so he destroyed it. This unitary action brought about civil war, between the polytheists and monotheists. The monotheists were victorious. King Lamurudu was killed and his children were expelled from Mecca. Oduduwa ? ventured northwest from Arabia toward modern day Sudan.
IFA OR YORUBA THE SUDANESE TRAIL That is why you will find Yoruba practices and customs under different names, in modern day Sudan. One of the deities of Sudan is Ngkola, the brother of Tere the God of life. He Bestowed life on human beings by breathing life into them. In fact the Yoruba name for Ngkola, is Olorun (Olo) 'owner' of the (Orun) 'sky', (Orun) 'sun', (Oru) 'heat'. Nzeanzo and Tsoede were known as the God of Blacksmiths, the God of rain and builders. The Yoruba name for Nzeanzo and Tsoede is Ogun the God of war and Blacksmiths.
Before long even Sudan became uncomfortable for the Yoruba, so they travelled South West mixing and colonising along the way, until they reached Ile Ife, where they were reunited with the native Yorubas. It didn't take very long before Oduduwa became the King Of the Yoruba. This (Ile) house (I) is (fe) Gigantic, or (Ile) house, of (Ife) love. The seven grand children of Oduduwa ? also became Yoruba kings and queens. Out of these mixtures of Yoruba natives, emigrants and immigrants came Yoruba Kingdoms 700 A.D., which stretched from modern day Senegal to Sudan
this tradition is exactly what is recorded by muhammad bello in the history of takrur(a name that decribed africans from the west ranging from darfur to senegal to nigeria) the spread of the arabs into the sudan or black africa or as your peeps say the negroes was not military. they did live in the sudan and still do. the stuff u read on the net and see on tv really does not do justice. if you are not on the ground and talking with these people u want see jack except what a euro-psuedo said in his writings about some people he mlet when actuality he is an undercover christian against islaam. u see this divide thing is not oinly in the so called africa world. who r the people that help establish a kurdish state or a berber identity in morocco. on the net u would thnk these people r so opressed and dying like blacks in the early south but when u actually meet them u will see the bull that flows from afar from a land called the west. regardless of their intentions they are liars and make fires bigger instead of putting them out. to say one was arab back in thei day especially and even now is to say one is american. are americans only blue eyed and blonde haired. hell no but something that is funny is most arabs think like that. if you are latino or black they immedietly assume u are arab and if u speak the language then u can forget ever being what u were previously because u r considered one of them. y? because this is the old world way of thinking as ausar said if a person assimilated egyptian culture and spoke the language they considered u on of them. just like the prophet alhi slm said "whoever imitates a people is from them" this maybe the reason the arab army decided to attack the nobation, makurian controlled area. in america south or north, people believe and set up systems were groups are stagnant and one cannot take upon different characteristics. i was told this by a fulani. so this african i.d. is modern and has its roots in colonialism.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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Part of India might have been part of this grand "Sudanese" conspiracy to dominate world trade.
Anyway history says Yoruba are connected to the Bini people not Arabs. From what I've read on the subject it was European intervention that first started distorting this history. The question is whither other interpretations of history came after European intervention
I'm pretty sure the idea that "Oduduwa, whom the Yoruba people claimed descended from the sky on chains" came after European intervention but I'll have to read more on it. I'll post more on this. The reason these people wanted to deny connection to Benin was because of Europeans turning people against each other so now people are making up fake stories sometimes
quote:The ongoing controversy is not about who is superior to whom or who originated from whom. The facts proffered by the Oba of Benin concerning the true identity of Oduduwa, the alleged founder of the Yoruba race, is to find the truth about our historical connection, which ought to bring us more closer together. Unfortunately, this is not the way some of our Yoruba people, led by the Ooni of Ife, are seeing the provided historical information. From what I have read in that particular portion of the book concerning the true identity of Oduduwa, there is no hint of any kind for one to conclude that the Edo or Benin people are superior to the Yoruba people or vice versa. Some of the Yoruba people, especially the educated and highly placed, are the ones saying so by mere fact of faulty deduction. The Oba of Benin only presented that Oduduwa, whom the Yoruba people claimed descended from the sky on chains, was actually a Benin fugitive prince, Ekalederan. Sans doubt, the presentation of the Oba of Benin apropos the origin of Oduduwa is too compelling to be ignored. Those arguing against it are only doing so for the sake of pride and for the preservation of the long held belief.
quote:William Smith found, in 1726, that “the greatest kingdom in Guinea is that of Benin”....Equinano, an Ibo, reported that the Benin kingdom was the “most considerable” in all of Guinea, “both as to extent and wealth”
This is really cool because I'm interested in learning more about the influence of these empires.
Also it is important to dispel the notion that the slave trade was ever important to the Benin empire:
322-323
quote:That this "falling off in the trade was severly felt by the people of Bénin," was demonstrated by the Oba's request, in 1838, that Moffat and Smith settle "that palaver" with the king of England. Although Moffat interpreted the Oba's request as a référence to British interférence with the slave trade, it is more reasonable to assume that the Oba was actually troubled by the general "falling off" in all trade, including ivory and palm oil, which was explained by Captain Owen.
Richard Burton observed, in 1862, that it was "a hopeless task to restore commerce to Bénin." Since the Bini wove their own cotton cloth and brewed their own wine, Burton thought that they "seemed to care little for the suspension of trade: it became painfully évident that they could stand the ordeal better than we could." Indeed, Oba Adolo accepted the abolition of the slave trade "as a. fait accompli, and never even alludes to its revival." Burton also reported that the factors at Gwato were unscrupulous, and he recommended that their factories be abandoned and razed to the ground. Apparently, his suggestion was followed, for Gallwey, in 1893, said that there had been no factories at Gwato "until very recently. " Palm oil, agreed Burton and Gallwey, was then the primary export. The latter also noted that the Itsekiri "do their best to obstruct" direct trade with Bénin proper, and that the inland waterways leading to Gwato were very dangerous because of snags, rapid current, and sunken trees.
An overall view of the period, between 1486-1897, yields the conclusion that the European slave trade was seldom, if ever, of considérable importance to Bénin proper.
The bellow is extremely important in these discussions because it shows how colonialists wanted to downplay the extent and influence of these African empires and thus make stories about Arab origins
"THE GREAT BENIN EMPIRE; A LEGACY OF AFRICAN CIVILIZATION"
quote:The history of the great Benin Empire as a nation is the record of a state that was established 2300yrs before any contact was made with European inferior nation. The great Benin Empire made remarkable achievements in those pre-European years, in art, science, administration, technology, political organization, architectures, astronomy, town-planning e.t.c.
When the great Benin empire reached the zeniths of its power, it extended its boundaries and exercised power over all the west African lands bordering the entire stretch of the bight of Benin, from the mouth of the river Volta in the west and eastward to the present day Congo and to the delta of river Niger in the east e.g. Ghana, Republic of Benin, both across the borders of modern Nigeria. Onitsha on the Niger and many other cities such as Asaba, Agbor, Isele-Uku, Warri, Idah e.t.c. Many of these states and other cities owe their corporate existence to the ancient Benin Empire. The influence of the great Benin Empire was said to have even extended to the present day Sierra Leone in the west.
The legendary fame of the Great Benin empire was such that the name Benin had many meanings, e.g. there was Benin-city and Benin empire, Benin river close to the new Benin (Warri) and there is the bight of Benin and the Benin district comprising of Sapele and Warri. Beyond the Gulf of Benin, the great Benin Empire's legendary fame was indeed wide spread. Several European states heard about the empires might and civilized attitudes, many sought for it.
That a vast stretch of the West African coastline bears the name " BIGHT OF BENIN" is no accident of history. Even until these day, it quite evident and amazing how the cultural influence of the ancient Benin empire remains strong till today. An independent republic of former Dahomey in 1975 decided to change its name to the republic of Benin as a way of reconnecting its roots to Africa's once glorious kingdom. The republic of Togo on the other hand named some of her prestigious institutions after the great Benin empire e.g. Universite du Benin, Togo hotel du Benin e.t.c. President Gnassingbe Eyadema during his 1974 visit to Benin City openly stated that the Togolese people originated from the ancient Benin Empire. His open declaration was cardinal in the sense that it ended the historical dilemma that clouded the ancient Benin and present day Benin speakingYoruba influence on many West African nations. Today, the people of Onitsha across the Niger, the Isekiris, Urobos, Isian and Ijaws just to mention but a few all proudly trace their venerated royal lineages to the ancient Benin empire.
Lourenco Pinto, who captained a Portuguese ship that brought the so-called missionaries to Warri the ancient port of Benin in 1619, sent the below deposition to the Sacra Congregazione the instance of father Montelcone. " All the city of this African Empire are organized, large and harmonious. The streets run straight and as far as the eyes can see. The houses are large; especially those of the king, which is richly decorated and has, fine columns. The city is wealthy and industrious."
Before that period, the great Benin Empire had built a unique defensive wall around its principal cities. The magnitude and complexity of this great wall has qualified it to be entered in the Guinness Book of Records as the greatest earth moving work ever constructed by man. With an estimated total length in excess of 20.000km, the great Benin wall is the longest running military defensive network ever built by man.
Isn't it ironic that the people that once made up this ancient prestigious kingdom are now grouped along minority lines in the modern day Nigeria. No thanks to the British dubious invasion and subsequent amalgamation of over 200 ethnic nationalities that now make up one Nigeria.
Isn't it sad that the name of this over 3000yrs old empire does not even appear on Nigeria map these days, instead towns like Ogbomosho and Lagos originally named Eko which was founded by Benin military leaders now represent the glory of Nigeria's ancient cities.
The marginalization and the dubious miss-interpretation of the great Benin Empire's history have to end. It is time for African scholars and historians to engage in the challenging and vital task of re-constructing Africa's unifying history. During this process, every element of all ancient African empires should be given due respect and honor, without exhibiting the contemporary tribalist and colonial mentality/education that is tearing African apart.
Fellow Africans, let us not forget that Africa is the past, the present and certainly the future.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: This is awesome! Thanks you for posting this
Thanks. I think the whole subject needs to be re-analyzed. I'm currently learning both Arabic and Swahili in college. I want to master both languages. Because I think there's more to the relationship. Clearly, there are those on the coast of East Africa with arab admixture...no one denies this. But the relationship has been told wrong and only to replace arabs with African civilizations. Black Kings dominated the Red Sea in trading for a long time and Arabs wanted a piece of the action. So they were ALLOWED to immigrate
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Sorry I got way off topic on this thread but it is kind of relevant because it shows how local histories have been distorted as a result of European colonialism. This is why its great you are learning these languages because you can read what people wrote in Pre-colonial times without the text being distorted through translations. It is so incredible how much of this literature must have been completely altered. I can't really trust anything I read.
Concerning the quote from Masudi it is claimed that he distorted what Galen said because Masudi was racist
"West Asian views on black Africans during the medieval era"
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Sorry I got way off topic on this thread but it is kind of relevant because it shows how local histories have been distorted as a result of European colonialism. This is why its great you are learning these languages because you can read what people wrote in Pre-colonial times without the text being distorted through translations. It is so incredible how much of this literature must have been completely altered. I can't really trust anything I read.
Concerning the quote from Masudi it is claimed that he distorted what Galen said because Masudi was racist
"West Asian views on black Africans during the medieval era"
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: "As was true elsewhere in the Hadhramawt, Doan's economy relied upon the persistent willingness of local boys and young men to sail away to foreign jobs...and remit money home. It was also common for local men to marry in their teens, emigrate to Ethiopia, or Somalia or Egypt, and stay away for as long as two decades, taking other wives while abroad."
It's interesting how it's described as cultural tradition to essentially emigrate to East Africa and mix with the local population there. Assuming this had gone on for a number of centuries...it would answer a lot of questions. Mostly, who were the Arabs that came over? Why did they come? But an answer that has yet to be answered is...What is this history of finding success in East Africa? Why was it cultural policy to move there and make money? Instead of making money in your own land?
I think there was increased migration in the 19th century than earlier centuries. Whatever the case may be about earlier time periods by the 19th century these Africans were not dominating world trade, they were the victims of it. Notice how the Indians, who have the capital, are subjects of the British. Allot of confusion comes from the overuse and misuse of the word Arab but there seems to be a conspiracy going on
The links to this book have been acting goofy. The old links I've posted in other places lead to a different page
quote:Sir Bartle Frere's visit to the principal ports in the Sultan's dominions, the Portuguese settlements, and the neighbouring islands, brought to light the fearful extent to which the whole coast is involved in the slavetraffic. At Kilwah Kavinja, described as " the real hotbed of the trade," he had to encounter some of the difficulties and learn the dangers of even official investigation into its operations. " We had been foiled in our attempts to see it on the way down, having been misled and sent to other places of the same name many miles off. It turned out to be a very large town, even more thriving than Zanzibar, not marked, on our chartt, and placed out of sight of cruisers, among unsurveyed reefs, difficult of access to any but Arab dhows. A very large trade, especially in slaves, has its seat here, where Europeans are very rarely seen; but a Banian emissary, we were told, had been there and to other places on the coast, warning all slave-traders to Bend their slaves inland, and to tell us nothing. These orders were well obeyed, and I never saw anything so insolent as the soldiers of the Arab Governor, or so obstructive as the usually mild and obsequious Indians. I have specially reported the circumstances, and was really thankful when I got the whole of our party embarked without a collision. But I am certain these people would never have behaved so without distinct orders, and equally certain that unless both Sultan and Banians are brought to their senses, we shall somewhere have a very unpleasant manifestation of slave* traders' anger at our interference with their proceedings."
Very dreary are the conclusions to which our Envoy comes with respect to the Arab and Portuguese occupation of the coast. Of the Arabs he says, " Their influence, if they have any, is never exercised for good; capital they have none to invest in the land or in its products, and in a financial sense they are entirely in the hands of the natives of India
quote:"Then the European and American commerce to Africa has been almost a secret monopoly in a very few hands. The greatest pains have been taken to keep everything quiet, and though some of the houses traded on a great scale, and employed quite a fleet of merchant vessels, the extent of their business was known to none but themselves, and was not folly realised by any but the most observant of their neighbours at Zanzibar."
We commend to the consideration of our merchants the strange facts brought to light in these investigations. A single Indian house, we are told, employs a capital of half a million sterling in advances to slaveowners and slave-dealers, mainly in Zanzibar alone no less than 140,000 is lent to European and American firms, Indians being the creditors, and the great commercial peoples of Europe and the new world the debtors.Nothing gives us so startling an idea of the gigantic proportions and the strange ramifications of this horrible trade as these monetary transactions. Well may Sir Bartle Frere say, " I know nothing like it in the history of commerce ;" and well may the British Indiana take the greatest pains to conceal their transactions in " black pepper " and " soiled ivory."
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: "As was true elsewhere in the Hadhramawt, Doan's economy relied upon the persistent willingness of local boys and young men to sail away to foreign jobs...and remit money home. It was also common for local men to marry in their teens, emigrate to Ethiopia, or Somalia or Egypt, and stay away for as long as two decades, taking other wives while abroad."
It's interesting how it's described as cultural tradition to essentially emigrate to East Africa and mix with the local population there. Assuming this had gone on for a number of centuries...it would answer a lot of questions. Mostly, who were the Arabs that came over? Why did they come? But an answer that has yet to be answered is...What is this history of finding success in East Africa? Why was it cultural policy to move there and make money? Instead of making money in your own land?
I think there was increased migration in the 19th century than earlier centuries. Whatever the case may be about earlier time periods by the 19th century these Africans were not dominating world trade, they were the victims of it. Notice how the Indians, who have the capital, are subjects of the British. Allot of confusion comes from the overuse and misuse of the word Arab but there seems to be a conspiracy going on
The links to this book have been acting goofy. The old links I've posted in other places lead to a different page
quote:Sir Bartle Frere's visit to the principal ports in the Sultan's dominions, the Portuguese settlements, and the neighbouring islands, brought to light the fearful extent to which the whole coast is involved in the slavetraffic. At Kilwah Kavinja, described as " the real hotbed of the trade," he had to encounter some of the difficulties and learn the dangers of even official investigation into its operations. " We had been foiled in our attempts to see it on the way down, having been misled and sent to other places of the same name many miles off. It turned out to be a very large town, even more thriving than Zanzibar, not marked, on our chartt, and placed out of sight of cruisers, among unsurveyed reefs, difficult of access to any but Arab dhows. A very large trade, especially in slaves, has its seat here, where Europeans are very rarely seen; but a Banian emissary, we were told, had been there and to other places on the coast, warning all slave-traders to Bend their slaves inland, and to tell us nothing. These orders were well obeyed, and I never saw anything so insolent as the soldiers of the Arab Governor, or so obstructive as the usually mild and obsequious Indians. I have specially reported the circumstances, and was really thankful when I got the whole of our party embarked without a collision. But I am certain these people would never have behaved so without distinct orders, and equally certain that unless both Sultan and Banians are brought to their senses, we shall somewhere have a very unpleasant manifestation of slave* traders' anger at our interference with their proceedings."
Very dreary are the conclusions to which our Envoy comes with respect to the Arab and Portuguese occupation of the coast. Of the Arabs he says, " Their influence, if they have any, is never exercised for good; capital they have none to invest in the land or in its products, and in a financial sense they are entirely in the hands of the natives of India
quote:"Then the European and American commerce to Africa has been almost a secret monopoly in a very few hands. The greatest pains have been taken to keep everything quiet, and though some of the houses traded on a great scale, and employed quite a fleet of merchant vessels, the extent of their business was known to none but themselves, and was not folly realised by any but the most observant of their neighbours at Zanzibar."
We commend to the consideration of our merchants the strange facts brought to light in these investigations. A single Indian house, we are told, employs a capital of half a million sterling in advances to slaveowners and slave-dealers, mainly in Zanzibar alone no less than 140,000 is lent to European and American firms, Indians being the creditors, and the great commercial peoples of Europe and the new world the debtors.Nothing gives us so startling an idea of the gigantic proportions and the strange ramifications of this horrible trade as these monetary transactions. Well may Sir Bartle Frere say, " I know nothing like it in the history of commerce ;" and well may the British Indiana take the greatest pains to conceal their transactions in " black pepper " and " soiled ivory."
Oh, I know they didn't still control it into the 19th century. When the Portugese came around is when I think it began to decline. They warred and disrupted a lot of trading activities I assume.
But I disagree with what you said earlier. By the 19th century, it was already established family tradition according to Coll. Traditions would take several generations at the least to form I would think. And trade by its very nature usually creates small populations of traveling merchants.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: I think there was increased migration in the 19th century than earlier centuries.
By that I didn't mean there weren't migrations in earlier times or that they were unimportant just that they increased in later times. The nature of these migrations would have certainly altered in the 19th century because of the Indian merchants who controlled trade on that coast.
quote:The population of these settlements," Salim confirms, "were predominately African, with initially a tiny minority of Arabs whose numbers increased substantially in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries."23
Source he used:
23. Africa from the sixteenth to the eighteenth century/ editor, B.A. Ogot. (London; Heinemann Educational Books; Berkeley; University of California Press; Paris: Unesco, 1992), 755
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Most of the time I go overboard in bolding text. What I bolded bellow is not to show Indian capital was important but about the importance of debt and this debt was why they were so much into the slave trade and in a way forced to do it. "The Banians pocket the price" if most of the profits were going to Indian merchants then this would show that "Arabs" were not necessarily the most powerful people here and the incredible power of the Indian merchants was because they were being backed by the East Indian Company. I doubt Indian merchants had all this power before European intervention
The last two bolded items show how this whole system was being backed up by the European colonialists and in many ways they were able to encourage the slave trade. This would certainly be important to take into consideration when it comes to Arabs traveling to this coast to make money
Edit: That these goods were loaned at enormous interest also shows how these loans were not simply aiding the slave trade but in a way forcing them into the slave trade. Its easy to see how the British subjects were aiding the slave trade but not how they forced it "The Banian British subjects have long been, and are now, the chief propagators of the Zanzibar slave-trade; their money, and often their muskets, gunpowder, balls, flints, beads, brass-wire, and calico, are annually advanced to the Arabs, at enormous interest, for the murderous work of slavery"
It is well known that the slave trade in this country is carried on almost entirely with his money and that of other Banian British subjects. The Banians advance the goods required, and the Arabs proceed inland as their agents, perform the trading, or rather murdering, and when slaves and ivory are brought to the coast the Arabs sell the slaves. The Banians pocket the price, and adroitly let the odium rest on their agents. As a rule no traveling Arab has money sufficient to undertake an inland journey. Those who have become rich imitate the Banians, and send their indigent countrymen and slaves to trade for them. The Banians could scarcely carry on their system of trade were they not in possession of the custom-house, and had power to seize all the goods that pass through it to pay themselves for debts. The so-called Governors are appointed on their recommendation, and become mere trade agents. When the Arabs in the interior are assaulted by the natives they never unite under a Governor as a leader, for they know that defending them or concerting means for their safety is no part of his duty.
The Arabs are nearly all in debt to the Banians, and the Banian slaves are employed in ferreting out every trade transaction of the debtors, and when watched by Governor's slaves and custom-house officers it is scarcely possible for even this cunning, deceitful race to escape being fleeced. To avoid this, many surrender all their ivory to their Banian creditors, and are allowed to keep or sell the slaves as their share of the profits. It will readily be perceived, that the prospect of in any way coming under the power of Banian British subjects at Zanzibar is very far from reassuring.
quote: In the first place, we are nationally concerned in this trade. Dr. Livingstone—no slight authority upon the matter—asserts positively that the trade is absolutely maintained by the capital of our East Indian subjects. In one of his letters, just published by the Foreign Office, Livingstone says:— ' The subject to which I beg to draw your attention, is the part which the Banians of Zanzibar, who are protected British subjects, play in carrying on the slave-trade in Central Africa. The Banian British subjects have long been, and are now, the chief propagators of the Zanzibar slave-trade; their money, and often their muskets, gunpowder, balls, flints, beads, brass-wire, and calico, are annually advanced to the Arabs, at enormous interest, for the murderous work of slavery, of the nature of which every Banian is fully aware. Having mixed much with the Arabs in the interior, I soon learned the whole system that is called " Cutchce," or Banian trading, is simply marauding and murdering by the Arabs, at the instigation and by the aid of our Indian fellowsubjects. The canny Indians secure nearly all the profits of the caravans they send inland, and very adroitly let the odium of slavery rest on their Arab agents. As a rule, very few Arabs could proceed on a trading expedition unless supplied by the Banians with arms, ammunition, and goods. ... It strikes me that it is well I have been brought face to face with the Banian system, that inflicts enormous evils on Central Africa. Gentlemen in India who see only the wealth brought to Bombay and Cutch, and know that the religion of the Banians does not allow them to harm a fly, very naturally conclude that all Cutchees may safely be intrusted with the possession of slaves, but I have been forced to see that those who shrink from killing a flea or a mosquito are virtually the worst cannibals in all Africa. The Manyema cannibals, amongst whom I spent nearly two years, are innocents compared with our protected Banian fellow-subjects. By their Arab agents, they compass the destruction of more human lives in one year than the Manyema do for their fleshpots in ten; and could the Indian gentlemen who oppose the anti-slavetrade policy of the Foreign Office but witness the horrid deeds done by the Banian agents they would be foremost in decreeing that every Cutchee found guilty of direct slavery should forthwith be shipped back to India, if not to the Andaman Islands.'—Livingstorie't despatches.
But dangerous as it is for a British subject to connect himself in any way directly with the traffic in slaves, yet, to bring home the indirect traffic criminally to them is, whilst the trade is legal at all, well nigh impossible. The Consul at Zanzibar may easily prove that a Banian house there, itself a branch of another great house at Bombay, and both of them of the very highest commercial character, fitted out a caravan for a most respectable Arab merchant, with the cloths of Hamburg, or the beads and wire of England and America, to go into the interior and trade for ivory. Evil rumours may soon abound as to the conduct of the caravan ; that its conductors are stirring up wars amongst the inland tribes and practising the slave-trade with its most aggravated enormities; but the Consul is utterly powerless as to interfering with it. After two years, perhaps, the Arab re-appears; slaves in numbers, as well as ivory, arrive ; who are sold for the mainland, whilst some go to Zanzibar, some to Arabia. It is clear as the sun at noonday that all this is the direct fruit of the employment of British capital in the felonious trade; but how can we bring home the guilty complicity ? How can we obtain evidence where the whole feeling of the pbee is against any inquiry ? Captain Eraser's own letter to the Select Committee of the House of Commons is a curious instance of the universality of this feeling amongst residents at Zanzibar. In the evidence given before the Committee, the Rev. Horace Waller had deposed that 'the fact of Captain Fraser employing slaves led to everlasting murmuring on the part of the natives.' ' One morning they would see us burning the dhows which were engaged in the slave trade, and the next morning they would see an Englishman working factories and plantations with the slaves safely landed. . . . . The poor slaves were hired in gangs from their Arab masters… It was encouraging the slave-trade.'
posted
Don't misunderstand what I said in the last post by force I mean leading them away from other economic activities. It is disgusting and disgraceful that these Muslims saw nothing wrong with slavery but if there were other more profitable opportunities less would be involved in the slave trade or the ivory trade (over hunting elephants and humans)
“Unnatural and Ever Prejudicial: Racial and Colonial Hierarchies in 19th Century Zanzibar.” By Dyer, Jeffery
quote: One source going as far as to suggest that “if the natives of India who were connected with the slave trade (and they were the dregs of Indian society) ceased to have anything to do with it, slavery would soon come to an end.”89
Edit:
I haven't bothered to look at the footnote until just now this is the footnote for the above quote
quote:89 Frere, Henry. “A Few Remarks on Zanzibar…” Pg. 353. Also, Malcom, W.E. England’s East Africa Policy… Pg. 31 suggests, in reference to the Indian populations, that “our own authorities were more or less indignant when it was said that on the coast they not only held slaves, but as a body, were as deeply engaged in the trade as the Arabs and the natives of Africa themselves.”
quote:this tradition is exactly what is recorded by muhammad bello in the history of takrur(a name that decribed africans from the west ranging from darfur to senegal to nigeria
Maybe we need to look at such local histories with a little more respect,for what has been said is that they were pre Islamic..quite a few E/S board memebers are hostile to the idea of any east west into of Africa migration,but if the above is true then Africans from the far west had been making their mark far to the east as well..after all there was in Islamic times an African named Bava Gor some say from the area around Nigeria who with his companions made their way 1st to Ethiopia then to Mecca and on to India where he became a famous precious stone merchant and religious figure,still held in high regard to this day.. If such could happend in Islamic times then I don,t see why it couldn,t have happend even earlier.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:The Oba of Benin only presented that Oduduwa, whom the Yoruba people claimed descended from the sky on chains, was actually a Benin fugitive prince, Ekalederan. Sans doubt, the presentation of the Oba of Benin apropos the origin of Oduduwa is too compelling to be ignored. Those arguing against it are only doing so for the sake of pride and for the preservation of the long held belief.
posted
Ok there have always been differing traditions when it comes to this history but in the very least further confusion was caused by European colonialism. I wonder if allot of this was also distorted because of the slave trade which led to rivalries.
I think these confusions about origins in different places in Africa should be studied together because they have similarities with each other. How did the slave trade and later colonialism effect these traditions?
"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L:
quote:Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.[109]
"RE-YORUBA ORIGIN CONTROVERSY :PROF ADE-AJAYI'S VIEW IS POLITICISED,ETHNICISED AND AHSTISTORICAL" By Ewaen Edoghimioya
quote:Until Oba Akenzua II, no Oba of Benin attended any conference or meeting of Yoruba Obas. Such kind of pan Yoruba Obas meeting never existed in history as a pan Yoruba consciousness and state never existed. These meetings were not started until the late 1930s.Attempts by some Yoruba Obas in present day Ondo and Ekiti states to pay customary tributes to Omo n'Oba ,Uku Akpolokpolo,Oba Eweka II after restoration in 1914 were stopped by the British and prohibited. This shows that the British were not interested in such interactions. But in the late 1930's certain administrative changes were implemented by the British which divided Southern Nigeria into Western and Eastern provinces.
posted
Dana Marniche please respond to what you think of all of this
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: this tradition is exactly what is recorded by muhammad bello in the history of takrur(a name that decribed africans from the west ranging from darfur to senegal to nigeria) the spread of the arabs into the sudan or black africa
As for earlier literature remember that much of it is mistranslated so there is allot of confusion here. As for the Sokoto Caliphate it was a response to gain stability during the era of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and so involved a great deal of rivalries and Jihads one can see why they would be biased
quote:The professional Nigerian nationalist historiography which emerged in reaction against the imperialist Hamitic Hypothesis - the assertion that Africa's history had been made only by foreigners - is rooted in a complex West African tradition of critical dialogue with European ideas. From the mid-nineteenth century, western-education Africans have re-worked European ideas into distinctive Hamitic Hypotheses suited to their colonial location. This account developed within the constraints set by changing European and African-American ideas about West African origins and the evolving character of the Nigerian intelligentsia. West Africans first identified themselves not as victims of Hamitic invasion but as the degenerate heirs of classical civilizations, to establish their potential to create a modern, Christian society. At the turn of the century various authors argued for past development within West Africa rather than mere degeneration. Edward Blyden appropriated African-American thought to posit a distinct racial history. Samuel Johnson elaborated on Yoruba traditions of a golden age. Inter-war writers such as J. O. Lucas and Ladipo Solanke built on both arguments, but as race science declined they again invoked universal historical patterns. Facing the arrival of Nigeria as a nation-state, later writers such as S. O. Biobaku developed these ideas to argue that Hamitic invasions had created Nigeria's proto-national culture. In the heightened identity politics of the 1950s, local historians adopted Hamites to compete for historical primacy among Nigerian communities. The Hamitic Hypothesis declined in post-colonial conditions, in part because the concern to define ultimate identities along a colonial axis was displaced by the need to understand identity politics within the Nigerian sphere. The Nigerian Hamitic Hypothesis had a complex career, promoting elite ambitions, Christian identities, Nigerian nationalism and communal rivalries. New treatments of African colonial historiography - and intellectual history - must incorporate the complexities illustrated here.
quote:The professional Nigerian nationalist historiography which emerged in reaction against the imperialist Hamitic Hypothesis - the assertion that Africa's history had been made only by foreigners - is rooted in a complex West African tradition of critical dialogue with European ideas. From the mid-nineteenth century, western-education Africans have re-worked European ideas into distinctive Hamitic Hypotheses suited to their colonial location. This account developed within the constraints set by changing European and African-American ideas about West African origins and the evolving character of the Nigerian intelligentsia. West Africans first identified themselves not as victims of Hamitic invasion but as the degenerate heirs of classical civilizations, to establish their potential to create a modern, Christian society. At the turn of the century various authors argued for past development within West Africa rather than mere degeneration. Edward Blyden appropriated African-American thought to posit a distinct racial history. Samuel Johnson elaborated on Yoruba traditions of a golden age. Inter-war writers such as J. O. Lucas and Ladipo Solanke built on both arguments, but as race science declined they again invoked universal historical patterns. Facing the arrival of Nigeria as a nation-state, later writers such as S. O. Biobaku developed these ideas to argue that Hamitic invasions had created Nigeria's proto-national culture. In the heightened identity politics of the 1950s, local historians adopted Hamites to compete for historical primacy among Nigerian communities. The Hamitic Hypothesis declined in post-colonial conditions, in part because the concern to define ultimate identities along a colonial axis was displaced by the need to understand identity politics within the Nigerian sphere. The Nigerian Hamitic Hypothesis had a complex career, promoting elite ambitions, Christian identities, Nigerian nationalism and communal rivalries. New treatments of African colonial historiography - and intellectual history - must incorporate the complexities illustrated here.
quote:Hidden in the Nigerian rainforest, the earthworks at Eredo are just a few hour's drive from Lagos.
The team from Bournemouth University, working with archaeologist Dr Patrick Darling, have completed a preliminary survey of the wall and ditch measuring 70ft high in places and around 100 miles long.....
...Love story But more intriguing still is the suggested link to the Queen of Sheba, one of the world's oldest love stories
According to the Old Testament, the Queen, ruler of Saba, sent a camel train of gold and ivory to King Solomon.
Solomon wooed and married the queen after she became overwhelmed by the splendour of his palace and their son began a dynasty of rulers in Ethiopia.
The Bible dates the queen's reign to the tenth century BC and modern scholars have speculated that a link between Judea and an ancient African queen led to the emergence of Judaism in Ethiopia.
In a tale closely linked to that in the Bible, the Koran describes the Queen as a sun worshipper based in the Arabian peninsula who was converted to Islam.
Arabian legend names the queen "Bilqis" and links her to the incense trade which was then a source of great regional power. …
…The region's long history of gold and ivory trade and the cultural importance of eunuchs linked to royal households further support the Sheba link.
"I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but it cannot be discounted," said Dr Darling.
"The local people believe it and that's what is important.
quote:Maybe we need to look at such local histories with a little more respect,for what has been said is that they were pre Islamic..quite a few E/S board memebers are hostile to the idea of any east west into of Africa migration,but if the above is true then Africans from the far west had been making their mark far to the east as well..after all there was in Islamic times an African named Bava Gor some say from the area around Nigeria who with his companions made their way 1st to Ethiopia then to Mecca and on to India where he became a famous precious stone merchant and religious figure,still held in high regard to this day.. If such could happend in Islamic times then I don,t see why it couldn,t have happend even earlier.
this is the point tarig berry was making and every consious african will tell you. these ntions that you call african have never been a stagnant people as a whole and sections of their nations have migrated to make for what suitable of their lifestyle. This is y u have different versions of origins. people make their mark where ever they want to. the african american is not the same peron he was 200 yrs ago. how many different stories actually exist of the african americans orgins. cherokee east indian italian portugese ireland morocco etc. i have heared it all but i have no evidence to contradict that. orientilist like marki r people with 2 cents thats all. he says euros r at fault and afrocentrist say "wow u r so right" because that stuff sounds appealing but in reality the student of the african continent does not focus on the discipline ITSELF which is the people or nations. without bini youruba hausa nupe mande federation, fulani nation, and the wolof crew and etc u will have no africa. that is what is being lost. what did your kin say not some friggin outsider who wants to be a sympathiser by implicitly saying "hey your ancestors are liars and they dont know anything about themselves because europeans had so much power in the world they even affected people's knowledge of their forefathers.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Maybe we need to look at such local histories with a little more respect,for what has been said is that they were pre Islamic..quite a few E/S board memebers are hostile to the idea of any east west into of Africa migration,but if the above is true then Africans from the far west had been making their mark far to the east as well..after all there was in Islamic times an African named Bava Gor some say from the area around Nigeria who with his companions made their way 1st to Ethiopia then to Mecca and on to India where he became a famous precious stone merchant and religious figure,still held in high regard to this day.. If such could happend in Islamic times then I don,t see why it couldn,t have happend even earlier.
this is the point tarig berry was making and every consious african will tell you. these nations that you call african have never been a stagnant people as a whole and sections of their nations have migrated to make for what was suitable of their lifestyle. This is y u have different versions of origins. people make their mark where ever they want to. the african american is not the same peron he was 200 yrs ago. how many different stories actually exist of the african americans orgins. cherokee east indian italian portugese ireland morocco etc. i have heared it all but i have no evidence to contradict that. orientilist like marki r people with 2 cents thats all. he says euros r at fault and afrocentrist say "wow u r so right" because that stuff sounds appealing but in reality the student of the african continent does not focus on the discipline ITSELF which is the people or nations. without bini youruba hausa nupe mande federation, fulani nation, and the wolof crew and etc u will have no africa. that is what is being lost. what did your kin say not some friggin outsider who wants to be a sympathiser by implicitly saying "hey your ancestors are liars and they dont know anything about themselves because europeans had so much power in the world they even affected people's, who possess professional historians in their nation, knowledge of their OWN forefathers." this is y i appreciate tariq. he is an american who adopted the arabic culture and religion and lived with all the various arabs, IN THEIR COUNTRIES, and went to their schools and is a rejuvenator of true arabism. he is not just some internet dude that says "in my opinion" that is unacceptable. you have to get in the grind and do what they do and see what they see. it is not all colorful or nice but at least it is not 3rd-partied by a st8t foriegner and i mean that in their sense. F-o-r-i-e-g-n-e-r. ive seen these guarees in morocco trying to speak arabic buying oranges. they stick out like crazy and have western ideas missionary intentions. they are seen from a mile away. they all work together.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Abdulkarem3
quote:this tradition is exactly what is recorded by muhammad bello in the history of takrur(a name that decribed africans from the west ranging from darfur to senegal to nigeria
Maybe we need to look at such local histories with a little more respect,for what has been said is that they were pre Islamic..quite a few E/S board memebers are hostile to the idea of any east west into of Africa migration,but if the above is true then Africans from the far west had been making their mark far to the east as well..after all there was in Islamic times an African named Bava Gor some say from the area around Nigeria who with his companions made their way 1st to Ethiopia then to Mecca and on to India where he became a famous precious stone merchant and religious figure,still held in high regard to this day.. If such could happend in Islamic times then I don,t see why it couldn,t have happend even earlier.
I don't know why we place artificial barriers i Africa and maintain this isolationist mentality when history is full of populations traveling great distances. Mansa Musa traveled from West Africa to Arabia several times.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Hidden in the Nigerian rainforest, the earthworks at Eredo are just a few hour's drive from Lagos.
The team from Bournemouth University, working with archaeologist Dr Patrick Darling, have completed a preliminary survey of the wall and ditch measuring 70ft high in places and around 100 miles long.....
...Love story But more intriguing still is the suggested link to the Queen of Sheba, one of the world's oldest love stories
According to the Old Testament, the Queen, ruler of Saba, sent a camel train of gold and ivory to King Solomon.
Solomon wooed and married the queen after she became overwhelmed by the splendour of his palace and their son began a dynasty of rulers in Ethiopia.
The Bible dates the queen's reign to the tenth century BC and modern scholars have speculated that a link between Judea and an ancient African queen led to the emergence of Judaism in Ethiopia.
In a tale closely linked to that in the Bible, the Koran describes the Queen as a sun worshipper based in the Arabian peninsula who was converted to Islam.
Arabian legend names the queen "Bilqis" and links her to the incense trade which was then a source of great regional power. …
…The region's long history of gold and ivory trade and the cultural importance of eunuchs linked to royal households further support the Sheba link.
"I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but it cannot be discounted," said Dr Darling.
"The local people believe it and that's what is important.
I know I'm not Dana, but I don't buy the Sheba in West Africa thing. It's hard enough pinpointing her in East Africa where she supposedly lived. But this is why the African-Arab Connection needs to be re-evaluated. There really should be no debate that the ancient Sabeans being both African and Arabian. When you combine the information Dana has provided about early Arabic groups...you can theorize that both groups were Black. Or at least very dark-skinned. The reason there is a debate is because a cross-regional African/Arabic polity is still a foreign idea to Western historiographers. Which is why the African element of the Sabeans (and the Queen of Sheba) is ignored and they're just called Arab (or Yemenite).
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I posted that thing about Sheba to make a point about how these traditions of origins are affected by European colonialism. I'm not saying there were not Pre-Islamic contacts I'm against these ridicules stories. The story as written by Mohammed Bello about Oduduwa being from Mecca makes no sense.
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:The story as written by Mohammed Bello about Oduduwa being from Mecca makes no sense.
Did or did not folks from Yemen.. came to west Africa? you see if Yemenis can go to West Africa then West Africans can travel to Arabia and back..it is the ol Africans can't or never travel beyond their comfort zones mentality again...I myself have at times have to bring myself out of that conditioning...yess Africans like everybody else did and do travel,another example I read somewhere is of a group of East Africans returning home from Arabia to establish a kingdom I think in one of Dr Clarks book if anyone knows what I am talking about please post.Now that was in east Africa so it was a little closer but it could be even futher west if you think about it.I had a post when I first sign up here about a Ghanian friend of mine who according to his tradition that when the Ga,first came to Ghana the Ashanti was living on the coast and his people arrived by boats in their thousands and the Ashanti or the ancestors of the Ashantis fled inland and they occupied the coast they got their name from the the Ashantis meaning ants because that's what they looked like floating out at sea and it is believed that they were Jews at the time and came from somewhere in Arabia..now their official history states something different and so I pooh poohed him to death,but why couldn't both be true? Plus there is this distaste of many for having Eastern influence even East African influence in West Africa as it may conflict with the notation of West Africans having their own unique history. It had taken some time but I have came to the conclusion that yes Africans in no part of the Continent were completely isolated from the rest of the world again explain Benin hbs in ancient Greece? Btw my friend's family name?.. Omani .
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
My last visit in Dubai, I went to Dubai Museum (really, the smallest museum I ever have been, and consider the country loves to bulldoze everything that is old to build more skyscrapers). The museum had a poster where it showed how the people in UAE traded with East Africa, and basically it was their lifeline. I took the picture of the poster, but I don't know how to download on this forum. And also, remember the former ruler of the country used to spend his Ramadan every year in Somalia where he had larg mansion in country side -- until the civil war broke out. Abdulkarem3 is correct when he says:"the african i.d. didnt exist at the time."
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Which is why the African element of the Sabeans (and the Queen of Sheba) is ignored and they're just called Arab (or Yemenite).
I don't know the Western view, but in Yemen (where I lived) and East Africa, the Queen Sheba was considered as a ruler both sides of Arabian sea (Reed Sea), and people will tell that in her time until the Europeans arrived, people in both sides regarded each other to belonging one cultur and identity. A very good example. Look at the faces of refugees (the Huthis) from the camps in Yemen where the government is fighting against. By the standard the Wester's racist view, they would be classified as being Black Africans (even darker than East Africans), and you wonder why BBC or CNN would never show us their faces, where when I was in Dubai, the Aljazeera English channel did air from these camps. The media (the power of image) plays great role on Western civilization.
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
^ also, I will travel to Oman this year (Insha'Allah), and try to take pictures from the people, and I'd to ask who you think is "Black" and "Arab". I am sure most of you will fail this test.
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
The early "African elements" were the Arab al Aribi or "Arab of the Arab" and descendants of Qahtan (Joktan) and Faligh (Peleg).
The early "African elements" in the North were "Ismaelites" descendants of Kedar derived from Thamud and Aram.
Almost all Arabians today are a mixture of the original African elements with recent Iranian, Turkish and other "Caucasian" elements
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Which is why the African element of the Sabeans (and the Queen of Sheba) is ignored and they're just called Arab (or Yemenite).
I don't know the Western view, but in Yemen (where I lived) and East Africa, the Queen Sheba was considered as a ruler both sides of Arabian sea (Reed Sea), and people will tell that in her time until the Europeans arrived, people in both sides regarded each other to belonging one cultur and identity. A very good example. Look at the faces of refugees (the Huthis) from the camps in Yemen where the government is fighting against. By the standard the Wester's racist view, they would be classified as being Black Africans (even darker than East Africans), and you wonder why BBC or CNN would never show us their faces, where when I was in Dubai, the Aljazeera English channel did air from these camps. The media (the power of image) plays great role on Western civilization.
The video is interesting if sad. I only saw like such people when I lived in New York many years ago. They were coming from towns Central Arabia. In my Western brainwashed ignorance I would ask them if they were descendants of slaves and they would look at me as if I were crazy. And it turns out I was.
It is very stange that in the U.S. one almost never ever sees such people in Western media. And there is obviously some reason behind it.
posted
If you talk to Yemenis, it is hard to find people who deny their East African Ancestors. Yemen might be a Fycked up country today, but that country holds wonders of archaeological richness.
Better than oil I say!
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Sorry I got way off topic on this thread but it is kind of relevant because it shows how local histories have been distorted as a result of European colonialism. This is why its great you are learning these languages because you can read what people wrote in Pre-colonial times without the text being distorted through translations. It is so incredible how much of this literature must have been completely altered. I can't really trust anything I read.
Concerning the quote from Masudi it is claimed that he distorted what Galen said because Masudi was racist
"West Asian views on black Africans during the medieval era"
quote:"Like the crow among mankind are the Zanj for they are the worst of men and the most vicious of creatures in character and temperament."7
Al Jahiz, Kitab al-Hayawan, vol. 2
quote: Galen says that merriment dominates the black man because of his defective brain, whence also the weakness of his intelligence."
Al-Masudi (d. 956 AD), Muruj al-dhahab
I thought Al Jahiz was a blackman of African ancestry who lived in Persia?
Well??
Actually Jahiz had a black or part black grandfather, but another of his books is said to be very "racist" against blacks.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It's amazing how the only way Western historians get away with ignoring African influences in Yemen and Arabia is that there are no pictures or video of actual BLACK PEOPLE in both of those countries. Some of whom who do claim African ancestry as Dana said.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Mark [QUOTE] The story as written by Mohammed Bello about Oduduwa being from Mecca makes no sense.
And earlier I made this comment:
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I'd like to learn about pre-Islamic contacts but Oduduwa did not come from Mecca
What I'm saying is Oduduwa did not come from Mecca. I did not say some people from Yemen did not migrate to these places. Nor have I said one thing downplaying African influence in Yemen
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Actually Jahiz had a black or part black grandfather, but another of his books is said to be very "racist" against blacks.
But allot or most of it was mistranslations. That was the point I was making on that post
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posted
Does anyone know anything about this why is there a reason a ? next next to Oduduwa
Was it somehow important propaganda to associate Yoruba and Hausa together?
muhammad bello wrote:
quote:A man called Lamurudu, at that time, introduced Yoruba to Mecca it was not known as Yoruba, just as Idolatry or Polytheism. One of the offspring of Lamurudu was Oduduwa II? was also alleged to have been King of Gogobiri and Kukawa, which are tribes in Country. The Hausa Were The Yoruba Muslims at that time.
They spoke Yoruba language and Aramic type Script. They later develop their own unique language Called Hausa, still been spoken today
The bellow is modern times where Yoruba is said to be a Hausa name
THE MISCHIEF OF HISTORY: BALA USMAN'S UNMAKING OF NIGERIAN HISTORY By Peter Ekeh
quote:So what is Bala Usman's proof that the name "Yoruba" is an "Hausa name"? It is so, to repeat, because, he says, "the earliest record [sic] we have of the use of the very name 'Yoruba' was in the Hausa language" -- from the writings of a man born in 1595! But in fact the name Yoruba was used by a Timbucktu theologian, Ahmad Baba, who was already a distinguished scholar long before Dan Masani was born in 1595…..
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Did or did not folks from Yemen.. came to west Africa? you see if Yemenis can go to West Africa then West Africans can travel to Arabia and back..it is the ol Africans can't or never travel beyond their comfort zones mentality again...
Why do you think I have been obnoxiously spamming stuff like this
"Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania"
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
"We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained" 1841
Not that the book has flaws and mistranslations just like everything else
quote: From Muli (says Ibn Batutah) the river descends to Yufi (Nufi), one of the greatest kingdoms of Negroland, but to which white men cannot penetrate; and thence it flows to Nubia." It would appear, from this, that the superiority now enjoyed by the people of Nufi in arts and industry, was already acknowledged in the fourteenth century.... In speaking of Kulwa (Kilwa, or Quiloa), on the eastern coast of Africa, he uses these words:—"A merchant there told me, that the town of Sofalah is half a month's journey from Kulwa, and one month from Yufi in the country of the Limiyin, and that gold is brought from Yufi to Sofalah."" The boldness here evinced in bringing together and joining in commerce countries far asunder, is constantly exhibited in the geographical speculations of an early or ill-informed age. Distances are then enlarged as expediency requires; hypothesis leaps over the vacant spaces, and forcibly stretches the known portions in the opposite sides of a continent till they meet in the centre. Illustrations of this truth may be found in all ages. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Abyssinia, Congo, and Monomotapa were all supposed to meet together. One of the Jesuits resident in Abyssinia asserts, that salt was carried from that country to Tomboktu.
quote:Why do you think I have been obnoxiously spamming stuff like this
I warned you about information overload before it seems unfriendly and people tends to ignore your post after awhile. non the least I did go over what you posted.
quote:One of the Jesuits resident in Abyssinia asserts, that salt was carried from that country to Tomboktu.
That right there proves that there was long distance contacts between the two regions and what I posted earlier about Bava Gor making his way to Abyssinia then Mecca and on to India, but what's more this trade net work existed for a very long time. The Forty Days’ Road links Asyut in the Nile Valley to El Fasher in the Dar-Fur Province of Sudan, a journey of 1,082 miles (1,721 km). It was the shortest and safest distance to travel into western Africa. The route was strung along several green and lush oases such as El Kharga. Dozens of towns, forts, and way stations spread over the depression floor.
From El Fasher, another route led west through Dar-Fur, toward Lake Chad, ending in the area of Kano (northern Nigeria), at the upper reaches of the Niger River Basin. www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/interior-africa.html
The image of the static stay at home Africans especially West Africans has got to be dispensed with.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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It's amazing how the only way Western historians get away with ignoring African influences in Yemen and Arabia is that there are no pictures or video of actual BLACK PEOPLE in both of those countries. Some of whom who do claim African ancestry as Dana said.
I forgot to include yesterday, that in the video you see children who are burned in their stomach for a medical reason or healing. This practice is very common today in Somalia and East Africa. Ask any Somali you might know, and chances are he/she or at least their parents have burned marks in their body. My mother has thse marks in the stomach. Thank God I was spared Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: The image of the static stay at home Africans especially West Africans has got to be dispensed with.
The only person holding onto that view is Dana why are you not addressing this to Dana?
"Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania"Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
Mark the Above post was to a lotta folks in general don't know what Dana's views on the matter is really..but even posters here and I am sure lurkers out there.
Questionmarks
quote:As far as I know there never even has been attempt to do so by Africans. They dominated populations near, they didn't travel long distances to enlarge their influence. They couldn't, because they had no arms, no transportation, no army, or a structure who made that possible.
See what I mean??
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Will we were first talking about the story written by Muhammed Bello does anyone have more information on this or why he might have made this storry
muhammad bello wrote:
quote:A man called Lamurudu, at that time, introduced Yoruba to Mecca it was not known as Yoruba, just as Idolatry or Polytheism. One of the offspring of Lamurudu was Oduduwa II? was also alleged to have been King of Gogobiri and Kukawa, which are tribes in Country. The Hausa Were The Yoruba Muslims at that time.
They spoke Yoruba language and Aramic type Script. They later develop their own unique language Called Hausa, still been spoken today
The bellow is modern times where Yoruba is said to be a Hausa name
THE MISCHIEF OF HISTORY: BALA USMAN'S UNMAKING OF NIGERIAN HISTORY By Peter Ekeh
quote:So what is Bala Usman's proof that the name "Yoruba" is an "Hausa name"? It is so, to repeat, because, he says, "the earliest record [sic] we have of the use of the very name 'Yoruba' was in the Hausa language" -- from the writings of a man born in 1595! But in fact the name Yoruba was used by a Timbucktu theologian, Ahmad Baba, who was already a distinguished scholar long before Dan Masani was born in 1595…..
quote:The Yoruba story about Oduduwa is extremely thin on substance. What we have is wrapped largely in myths, parables, and folktales. In fact, the most generous way to describe the story is that the Yoruba do not know anything about their highly revered progenitor. Oduduwa himself left a tell tale evidence of his ancestry in his lifetime. He reserved a special seat in his palace for his ancestors, which only the Bini monarch can sit on even now. No other human, whether Arab, Eskimo, Alaafin, Ooni, or Yoruba, (bleached or not), can sit on the seat. Despite this vivid evidence that has survived through the centuries, some Yoruba historians still claim that he was from somewhere in Arabia.
Any place from Egypt to Lebanon to Iraq to Saudi Arabia has been mentioned, and the Yoruba professors’ strongest proof of Oduduwa’s Arabian ancestry so far is that he was light in complexion. This may have influenced some heirs of Oduduwa, who have been accused of serious attempt at bleaching. The ‘light’ in complexion argument could place Oduduwa’s origin any where in the world from Edo, to China, to Britain, to Mexico, but who dares fault our professors who passed their exams on European history? The Saudi Arabian origin theory is not popular with the Ijebus who erroneously claim Wadai as their roots. Those linking Oduduwa with Iraq claim that he descended from Lamurudu (the Nimrod of Babylon’s myth). Nimrod was not an historical figure but a myth constructed from the life image of Ausar, the god of the Chaldeans, who invaded and colonized Persia from 4000 BCE. In any case, is it not dishonest to try to link 6000-year-old ancestry with 900-year-old personalities, without authentic and verifiable historical documents or DNA test? You can deceive the illiterate with myths but Nigerians are becoming more and more educated now.
There is another school of thought among some Yoruba historians claiming that Oduduwa came from the East. Some Yoruba historians are more specific and claim that Oduduwa first settled on a hill east of the valley over-looking the native Yoruba settlements. If he settled first in the Eastern side of the hamlet, isn’t there a good chance that he may have come from that side too? Bini would appear to be more East of Yorubaland than any Arabian country. The argument that the native Yoruba people probably did not know their East from their North is not tenable because the same people told us that the Igbos attacked them from the East in Moremi’s story, and both the Bini and the Igbos are East of Yorubaland. ....
...There is no mention in any Arabian historical records of a prince of such illustrious ancestry who abandoned his privileged ranks at home and moved several hundreds of miles through bush paths to live in the West African jungle. Such incidents do not happen casually or without clear excuse such as a jihad or war of conquest, and when it did, all tribes along their routes felt their impact one way or the other. In the case of Oduduwa, mum is the word from the Northern flanks of Yorubaland all the way through the jungle to the other side of the Mediterranean Sea.
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