It is one of the oldest words in the Egyptian language. It is used both as a determinative and as a title for the king. And because it is a title of the king, we can establish its use as early as the time of Menes, the first king of the first dynasty. This means that this word, and its associated words were written and used long before a Greek, or a Latin, or an Arabic language even existed.
Sedge as a determinative:
phonogram: sw (su)
ideogram: nswt "king" (nsut)
"Sedge": swt (sut)
From this word, we get "Suten" - the "en" ending is a 1st person plural pronoun which means "we, us, our". This can be interpreted literally as "We who are from the Sedge country"; ie, Upper Egypt, the South, the Nile Valley, TaSeti...
Thus, the south, Upper Egypt was the place from which sovereignty originated and the very seat of legitimacy.
Suteni: to be king, to rule
Suteni.t the state of being king, kingdom, kingship, sovereignty, royalty, rule
This ideology expressly includes the Sudan (the Ethiopia of the Ancients), as it was referred to as:
Khentu Hon Nefer: "founders of the Excellent Order"
Hon Nefer: "Excellent Order"
Ta Khent: "land of the beginning"
Yau: "the old country"
Most Egyptologists know all of this, they just don't mention it.
The Arabs and Greeks... In one of the most unprecedented military accomplishments in history, Arabians, under the flag of Islam were able to establish a vast colonial empire that included southern Europe and northern Africa. It is perhaps because of this development that the original name for "Sudan" would be erroneously attributed to them, forgetting that Arabic is a 'child' language in its relationship to Pharaonic Egyptian. Like Martin Bernal pointed out about Greek borrowings, there are also a lot of words in the Arabic language which were borrowed from the Egyptian.
Let's take the expression "Soodan" which is supposed to be the origin of the name "Sudan". Well it actually is the name for Sudan, but as we've shown above, it isn't of Arab origin, and it probably doesn't actually mean "Blacks", in the same manner that "Suten" did not actually mean "king":
In fact, the Arabic terms for Blacks or Africans seem to derive directly from the Egyptian words which were cited above:
colonial Arabic:
aswad, soda - black
sood - Black men
Soodan - Blacks, Black men
(Takrooriy - Black pilgrim from Central Sudan)
The Arabs clearly did not originate these terms and the parent of "Sudan" is clearly "Suten"; an Egyptian origin.Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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how old is arabic? and which kind of arabic r u taliking. jibaly, himyari, amhari, quraishi, mehri, or nabti.
The earliest surviving texts in Proto-Arabic, or Ancient North Arabian, are the Hasaean inscriptions of eastern Saudi Arabia, from 800 BC, written not in the modern Arabic alphabet, nor in its Nabataean ancestor, but in variants of the epigraphic South Arabian musnad...
The "official" dating of the written Ancient Egyptian language is about 3400 BC!
I've no knowldege on this topic, but as far as i know it was called: Meroi, kuch, Nubia, but no Sudan. If you find a pre-islamic/arabic name referring to sudan as "sudan" "suten" or like that, then your opinion would credible.
Or else you will have to sourcify your opinion that the Arabs borrowed words from the Ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I think it means just black, and is an arabic word;
It is an Arabic word whose etymology is African (Mdu Ntr); the Arabs use of the term "Sudan" actually was a synonym for Africa and Africans...
quote:I've no knowldege on this topic, but as far as i know it was called: Meroi, kuch, Nubia, but no Sudan. If you find a pre-islamic/arabic name referring to sudan as "sudan" "suten" or like that, then your opinion would credible.
Please re-read my opening statement, all of these locations you mention were in Upper Egypt/the South:
Suten - We who are from the south/sedge country (ie, Wose, Denderah, TaSeti, Kush, Saba ("Meroe")...
quote:Or else you will have to sourcify your opinion that the Arabs borrowed words from the Ancient Egyptians.
2000 BC - Mdu Ntr baraka - to bless baraka - to bow the knee in homage baraka - gift, present, tribute ba + ra + ka - "soul" + "sun" + "soul's double" ( Bantu: baka, baraka, barikia )
2000 - 3000 BC - Mdu Ntr Ala - to be high, exalted: ( praised; held in high esteem ) ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The following are the names of ancient and modern Arabian tribes, i.e. living in the Arabian peninsula
Sawayd or Sudan - a word signifying the black or cultivated earth in Arabic. Hagar, Hajar - the ploughable or arable earth Mitzr or Muzir or Mudar - references a serpent and is the earth deity Kenana or Cana'an references a dog and signifies the low land Ham - the fermented black earth
Capiche is a Sicilian/Italian word now used in America.
"…Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan’an, are many nations, among them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many peoples that multiplied in the Maghrib, about 70 of them….” from the French translation of the Akbar al Zaman (of Al Masudi) , L’Abrege des Merveilles published 1898.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The following are the names of ancient and modern Arabian tribes, i.e. living in the Arabian peninsula
Sawayd or Sudan - a word signifying the black or cultivated earth in Arabic. Hagar, Hajar - the ploughable or arable earth Mitzr or Muzir or Mudar - references a serpent and is the earth deity Kenana or Cana'an references a dog and signifies the low land Ham - the fermented black earth...
"…Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan’an, are many nations, among them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many peoples that multiplied in the Maghrib, about 70 of them….” from the French translation of the Akbar al Zaman (of Al Masudi) , L’Abrege des Merveilles published 1898.
Parent - child languages There are times when a parent learns from a child, even adopting some of a child's idioms...this, however doesn't alter the fundamental reality of the relationship.
a) The plain of Sennar in Sudan (Parent) is replicated in "Shinar" in Babylon (child).
b) The African "Kush" (Parent) is replicated in the Asian "Kush" (child).
c) Kush - 'frontier country' in Mdu Ntr becomes "Kush" in Hebrew - Blacks
d) Suten - 'we southerners/sedge people' in Mdu Ntr becomes 'soodan' in Arabic - Blacks
e) hm, hmme, hmom - fire, heat, hot (in the parent Mdu Ntr) becomes "Ham" in Hebrew - heat.
...and so on, and so on...
Pre-Islamic Arabia was at one time under the provenance of Kemet as exemplified in a name for "Aribi" which contains the Nu.t glyph...It was also once considered as being a part of Ethiopia. Thus, it did not exist in blissful isolation from the rest of the world and was therefore subject to its influence, and in some instances, as pointed out above, its domination; including the influence and inter-reaction of language. ---
You also wrote:
"Capiche is a Sicilian/Italian word now used in America."
I would, however, state it thusly: "Capiche is an American expression derived from Italian."
posted
This time I'd have to disagree with some of ur explanations Wally. How do we go from Ta Seti to Sudan - just because they sound alike? This is not how we relate etymologies in linguistics. Furthermore like ancient Arab names most Egyptian names probably had some cosmological significane or relationship to sun, moon, stars and planets.
The word Kush especially originally meant something different then frontier country to "Kushites" living in Kush - obviously.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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2000 BC - Mdu Ntr baraka - to bless baraka - to bow the knee in homage baraka - gift, present, tribute ba + ra + ka - "soul" + "sun" + "soul's double" ( Bantu: baka, baraka, barikia )
1000 BC - Hebrew baraka- blessing
800 BC - Arabic baraka - blessing, breath of life
...
Igbo: Ubaka (Wealth/blessings of life)
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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This time I'd have to disagree with some of ur explanations Wally. How do we go from Ta Seti to Sudan - just because they sound alike? This is not how we relate etymologies in linguistics...
This 'because they sound alike' is always the caveat or shield used by those who are set against new revelations that challenge 'established notions':
a) 'Sir' in Mdu Ntr is related to 'Sir' in English NOT because they sound alike but because they both mean the same thing!
b) The etymology of a word doesn't rest entirely on this principle alone:
How did the name of a country 'Kush' in Mdu Ntr come to mean 'Blacks' in Hebrew?
How did the name of a region 'Sut, Nsut' come to mean 'kingship, royalty, legitimacy'?
By association!
quote:Furthermore like ancient Arab names most Egyptian names probably had some cosmological significane or relationship to sun, moon, stars and planets.
Here, I believe you're confusing the SaRe names of Ancient Egyptian kings, rather than the names of ordinary citizens; names which were not radically different than names used in most African cultures, the majority of which have NO cosmological significance:
Akan: (day of week born) - Kwadwo, Kwabena, Kwaku, Yaw, Kofi, Kwame, Kwesi - for the boys...
Yoruba: names meaning "My wealth", "Warrior", "Great"...
Arabic: names meaning "Jewel", "Good", "Handsome"...
quote:The word Kush especially originally meant something different then frontier country to "Kushites" living in Kush - obviously.
The Mdu Ntr words Kush, Ekush, Ethaush, Thaush... are all synonyms having the same meaning - frontier, border (ie., the African interior). This word would have the same meaning to those who lived within that designated territory and its etymology could possibly even be traced back to Central Africa, which even Budge admitted was the ancestral home of the Mdu Ntr...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
This ignores that Qevs was a self-nomen. Were Keshli frontiersmen to themselves?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
...STUDY THESE WORDS... ON THE LAST ENTRY 'SUTENU'(?), I WOULD ALSO SPECULATE 'SUTOUN' (?)... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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