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Who is Anta Diop? "Cheikh Anta Diop (29 December, 1923 in Thieytou, Diourbel Region - 7 February, 1986 in Dakar) was an African historian, anthropologist, physicist, Egyptologist and politician who studied the human race's origins and pre-colonial African culture." (Wikipedia).
His ideology is: "The world's civilization is African/black".
His africanity has no geographical sense, but a racial sense. To him, it is synonimous for "Balckness".
What did he said about the Berbers?
quote:Diop explains how the original Libu and Tehenu were blacks; and that the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea who arrived in the area around 1200 BC and fought Ramses III.
quote:Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
quote:Moreover, the root Bar in Wolof, means "to speak rapidly" and bar-bar would designate a people that speaks an unknown language, therefore a foreign people
quote:As for the Moors, they descend directly from post-Islamic invaders who, starting from Yemen, conquered Egypt, North Africa, and Spain between the seventh and fifteenth centuries. From Spain they fell back on Africa. Thus the Moors are basically Arab Moslems whose installion in Africa is quite recent.
quote:This is false, as proven by Diop (1977). Diop (1977) illustrates that the Berber genealogies place their origin in Saudi Arabia and point to a very recent
Conclusion Those Berbers are foreingers, descendants of the Sea People, Vandals, Yementis and Saudi Arabia. This seems at first sight contradictory, but in this context, it means that they are not original to North Africa (Alienation).
Why? The answer for this question is based on another ancient question: Were the Berbers the ancestors of the Egyptians? Before, this question was alive. If the question would be positive, that would mean, to Anta Diop, that the Egyptian civilization is white, since the Berbers are whites (like he stated: Green eyes, blondish..). Anta Diop says on those white Libyans: "They are savages to the civilization... They were in the last rangs of civilization.. the name "civilizatin" cannot be given to them... It is astonishing how some tried to connect the Egyptian civilization to those Libyans... they were famillial thiefs..."
A clair message...
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Understanding the attitude of Anta Diop and others (like Clyde winters here) towards the Berbers.
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Mazigh Anta Diop was just doing research i think he is a good scholar but i dont agree with everything he says.
Look Mazigh first of all if u are a North african socalled Berber explain to us what your own people say about there origins i would really lke to hear please.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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No, Anta diop has clear intentions to annuly the North African origin of the Berbers to close the door against the the question which was wide spread in the last centuries: Were the Berbers (Ancient Libyans) the acestors of the Egyptians?.
He is not innocent, but a biased afrocentric, like those eurocentrics. But as the afrocentrism is in favour of the afrocentrics, it seems like it is the most normal thing in the worlds unlike eurocentrism.
As the origin of the Berbers, the Berber opinions of their origin is not interesting. It is a science, and the science is not limited to a colour, religion, language, ideology but it is a human science based on scientific methods. Those opinions/works that are not based on healthy methodes are just biased, whether is Berbers, Arab, Afrocentric or Eurocentric...
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: No, Anta diop has clear intentions to annuly the North African origin of the Berbers to close the door against the the question which was wide spread in the last centuries: Were the Berbers (Ancient Libyans) the acestors of the Egyptians?.
He is not innocent, but a biased afrocentric, like those eurocentrics. But as the afrocentrism is in favour of the afrocentrics, it seems like it is the most normal thing in the worlds unlike eurocentrism.
As the origin of the Berbers, the Berber opinions of their origin is not interesting. It is a science, and the science is not limited to a colour, religion, language, ideology but it is a human science based on scientific methods. Those opinions/works that are not based on healthy methodes are just biased, whether is Berbers, Arab, Afrocentric or Eurocentric...
The Berbers were known as Lebu, Tehenu, Temehu and Meshwesh during the pharaonic antiquity.
Their roots can be approached by several approaches: Legends (ancient and modern), Anthropology and linguistic: Antropologic: Traditionally the Berbers are attributes to invasions, migrations, dominations..., but how about if they came from nowhere? The Northwest African Homo-sapian: Aterian: This was followed by the Mechta el-Arbi (North African: Cro-magnon). The cro-magnon was replaced (although not completely) by another human. He is still, but rarely, respresented in the modern popluation.
The proto-meditteranean man appears in the VIII millenium and replaced the Mechta-el arabi (cro-magnon). A- Ibero-maurusian (Cro-magnon/Mechta-afalou) B- Proto-medeteranean (capsian).
The capsians is the represented by actual Northwest Africans (Berbers and arabized Berbers(Arabs of Northwest Africa). Snails were their sources of protein:
The linguistics would also confirm the oriental origin of the Berbers.
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I see a lot of misdirection but you dont ever seem to sum it up short and sweet.
What is the Berbers peoples immediate origin? 3-10kya What is the Berber peoples distant origin? 10-30kya
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Between 22 000 and 9 000 the western coasts of North Africa were inhabited by the Iberomaurusians. The name is: Iber (Iberian Peninsula) and Maurusians (Maures). The name seems to have no significance. However they contributed to the modern Berber popluation, they influence seems to be very weak (Do more research): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11006048 www.google.com
Some keywords: Libyco-Capsians Ancient Libyans Libyco-Berbers
The central sahara was inhabited by blacks, and later by whites and blacks (those whites dates back to 6000 b.C., and are supposed to be the ancestors of the white Libyans).
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The reason for Mazigh's apparent confusion is that he seeks to assign a role to later members of the Berber nationality, the Germanic and other white elements, of which they were totally inadequate to fulfill!
That is the gist of Diop's and others' argument vis-a-vis the White elements within the Berber nationality. The very notion that the Berbers, of whatever phenotype, had anything to do with the creation of Kememou civilization is pure fantasy; they certainly figured prominantly in its destruction.
a) Libu is the Mdu Ntr expression for ANY peoples who lived by the water
b) Tjennu is the Mdu Ntr word for people who dressed in blue and/or who became dyed by the chemical process of wearing the clothes that creates this color
c) Tamehu is the Mdu Ntr word for 'red ones' or 'pinkish ones'; to whom the Kememou, like Diop, would consider the Berbers to be de facto representatives of
...
Like the Cuban nationality, the Puerto Rican nationality, the ...; the Berber nationality has no common origin; its foundation is fundamentally Black African, with the later processes of White and Asiatic Arab invasions that would transform the Berber nationality - and is emphatically revealed in the Berber language...
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And the Egyptians the black ones, of course...
@Wally, You got the divine key's of the Egyptian language to categrize the world according to your universal linguistic view of the human races concluded from the Egyptian walls, distributing the labels like distributings some pieces of money on the poors, you're supreme in your view, your language is sacred, the secrets of the reality are in your hands... the undisputed hyrogliphist.
All these duties didn't deny the Berber problem of Anta Diop.
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Mazigh im also a North African and have many berber friends but they all dont know there origins at all
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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It is because the arab gouvernements and the Arab nationalists (many are Berbers themselves) make them believe they are some isolated Barbarians. They made them believe that every nation has its isolated primitive people, like the Indo-americans in America, and the Berbers are those primitives of arab nation.
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Diop has pretty much been discredited by classical scholars. These afrloon like much of what he says so they assume he is correct. Those they do not like they dismiss.
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Between 22 000 and 9 000 the western coasts of North Africa were inhabited by the Iberomaurusians. The name is: Iber (Iberian Peninsula) and Maurusians (Maures). The name seems to have no significance. However they contributed to the modern Berber popluation, they influence seems to be very weak (Do more research): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11006048 www.google.com
Some keywords: Libyco-Capsians Ancient Libyans Libyco-Berbers
The central sahara was inhabited by blacks, and later by whites and blacks (those whites dates back to 6000 b.C., and are supposed to be the ancestors of the white Libyans).
Kya if I am not mistaken means "Thousand Years ago".
Nice map Mazing, I agree that White Lybians arrived earlier than sea people but their population was small compared to the black North Africans and they adopted the Berber language from the Blacks.
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Between 22 000 and 9 000 the western coasts of North Africa were inhabited by the Iberomaurusians. The name is: Iber (Iberian Peninsula) and Maurusians (Maures). The name seems to have no significance. However they contributed to the modern Berber popluation, they influence seems to be very weak (Do more research): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11006048 www.google.com
Some keywords: Libyco-Capsians Ancient Libyans Libyco-Berbers
The central sahara was inhabited by blacks, and later by whites and blacks (those whites dates back to 6000 b.C., and are supposed to be the ancestors of the white Libyans).
Sorry Mazigh but you are spouting the nonsense that has long been proposed by white Euro science to try and posit an ancient presence of whites in North Africa. For one thing, that little strip of Green is not even 1/10th of North Africa, yet this one little strip is used to typify all of North Africa, which is much more than that little strip of green.
But again of course this little strip is important to European historians because it is close to Europe and thus allows them to plausibly find evidence of ancient migrations of whites to North Africa. However, Berber languages do not originate with this little patch of green and certainly there is no evidence of such languages existing during the Ibero-Maurisan. Therefore, calling these people "Berbers" is again pure speculation and wishful thinking.
So again we see scholars creating a focus on the extreme coastal areas of North Africa in history to again try and make that small area some driving force behind culture in North Africa, when the reality was that the Sahara was a driving force behind the history of North Africa not the extreme coast. And similarly, such a focus is also used in regards to Berber identity by trying to use the extreme coast of North Africa as some "true homeland" for Berbers, which has nothing to do with actual linguistic history but arbitrary methods such as biology, genetics and archaeology distorted to support such a view.
Many linguists place the origin of Berber languages in East Africa and not in Europe or the "Near East". And these languages certainly did not exist 10,000 years ago with the Ibero-Maurisian, which again is not a language but a archaeological culture based on physical artifact styles. Therefore, what you are doing is trying to put a linguistic stamp on something that has no linguistic basis. Yes, the people who created the Ibero-Maurisian industry were part of north Africa, but only part and certainly there were more people and cultures in North Africa than the Ibero-Maurisan.
The central Sahara was still wet at this time and there is rock art from 12,000 years ago at sites across the sahara and maybe older. And that rock art had a tool industry to go with it as well, but for whatever reason no industry has been identified as yet for this time period in the Sahara.
But again, it is the European archeologists and scientists who try to create racial distinctions based on the rock art of the Sahara which to this day is surrounded by black African people.
And bottom line, all tool industry traditions originate in Africa to begin with many thousands of years ago.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I agree that White Lybians arrived earlier than sea people This is the right beginning
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Mazigh - What is this nonsense that you and Jari-Ankhamun agree on - White Lybians???
Except in your delusional dreams, where could these ghost people have come from, and what evidence is there for their existence?
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I agree that White Lybians arrived earlier than sea people This is the right beginning
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Mazigh - What is this nonsense that you and Jari-Ankhamun agree on - White Lybians???
Except in your delusional dreams, where could these ghost people have come from, and what evidence is there for their existence?
Again this is an image of White Lybians...
These people probably came from migrations from the East or from Southern Europe and settled and adopted the culture of the original Berber and Black North Africans.
more:
Shomarka Keita, a biological anthropologist from Howard University, has claimed that populations in Carthage circa 200 BC and northern Algeria 1500 BC were very diverse. As a group, they plotted closest to the populations of Northern Egypt and intermediate to Northern Europeans and tropical Africans. Keita claimed that "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance." Modern evidence showed a similar diversity among present North Africans. Moreover, this "diversity" of phenotypes and peoples was probably due to in situ differentiation, not foreign influxes. Of course foreign influxes certainly had an impact but they did not replace the indigenous Berber population.
What are we to make of this Mike111, Turkish invaders??? Or Wait They are a rejected albino Colony of the Black Lybians right..LMAO Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Jari-Ankhamun - No, they are not Turkish invaders; They are cartoon characters made up by each successive wave of pathetic White and wannabe White boys, desperately needing to find something White to hang onto - and when not finding it, then having to make something up - IT'S A FAKE DRAWING NUMB-NUTS.
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Again the depiction(the Original) has a Light skinned(White) Lybian Type Mike111 on that link you posted.
Like I asked who are they Mike111??
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Jari-Ankhamun - Since you posted that bogus picture to make a false point, I will now use it to make a truthful point that will hopefully BLOW YOUR LITTLE WHITE MIND he, he.
Note the side lock on the phony white figures above - THAT PART IS TRUE!!
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Mike111 I never denied there were black lybians what I am talking about is the WHITE lybians depicted on the wall of the tomb.
Who are the people on the far right???
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...siiiigh, sigh If you learn to read, then you wouldn't have to ask the question the important part of this Kememou book is partially obscured in order to focus on the images, kinda like People magazine without the 'bothersome text!' Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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No serious person could possibly believe that the negros in the center frame look even remotely like Egyptians.
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Wally - I apologize for all of us ignoramuses who were fooling around during hieroglyphics class, and consequently reached adulthood completely unprepared for the real world.
Please show your great magnanimity, and generosity of heart, by translating each of the three panels.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Sorry Mazigh but you are spouting the nonsense that has long been proposed by white Euro science to try and posit an ancient presence of whites in North Afr....
I think you didn't read the comments. The green one was replaced by the light-blue ones. The first one (green) is dated from 22 000 - 12 000 (Mechta-afalou/North African Cro-magnon), second one is the Capsian (the immediate ancestor of the modern Berbers) from 12 000 - 6000 b.c.
The depiction of white people from the sahara circa 6000 b.c. is not eurocentric. Because it denies the Europian origin of the white Libyans (Tamhou, Libu..).
If necessary, then whitecentric, but it can be others, it is whether those white Libyans came from Europa or originated in North Africa.
Since, 6000 b.c. is far enough for supposed Europian migration (sea people -+ 1200 b.c), then those white people are originating in North Africa.
عن أصل التمحو فقد ظهرت فى هذا الموضوع نظريتان : يرى أصحاب النظرية الأولى بأن التمحو جاءوا مهاجرين من قارة أوروبا إلى شمال افريقيا ثم توغلوا إلى الجنوب ويروا بأنهم ينحدرون من قبائل الوندال أو أى جنس شمالى آخر ويستند أصحاب هذه النظرية كدليل علىذلك من خلال السمات التى يمتازبها التمحو عن بقية الليبيين مثل : الشعر الأصفر والعيون الزرقاء والبشـرة البيضاء ولكن هذه النظرية لا تستقيم مع ما اثبتناه أعلاه من وجود هذه المجموعة السكانية ذات الشعر الأصفر والبشرة البيضاء فى الصحراء الكبرى منذ الألف السادسة قبل الميلاد وتتعارض مع ما أكدت عليه البحوث الأثرية عن عدم استعمال الإنسان للبحر قبل الألف الخامسة قبل الميلاد، بالإضافة إلى عدم وجود أيــة قرائن تـفيد بأن المجموعات السكانية الأوروبيـة وصلـت منطـقة الـصحراء الكبرى كمهاجرين فى أى فترة من فترات التاريخ القديم، والجدير بالذكر أن أول اتصال أوروبى بمنطقة شمال افريقيا كان فى حدود نهاية الألف الثانية قبل الميلاد مع وصول المجموعات المعروفة باسم شعوب البحر الذين حاولوا الاستيطان فى منطقة وادى النيل وكما هو معروف لدى الجميع فان تلك المحاولة لم يصادفها النجاح على كل حال أما أصحاب النظرية الثانية فيروا بأن التمحو هم مواطنون افريقيون سلكوا طريقهم من الجنوب الغربى من الصحراء متجهين نحو الشمال والشمال الشرقى ويرى بعض العلماء بأن القوم الذين أطلق عليهم العلماء اسم المجموعة (ج)، والذين عثر على آثارهم بمنطقة النوبة هــم فرع من التمحو وانهم ليبيون. ويشير(اوريك بيتس)(17) بأن مخلفاتهم تتفق ومخلفات الليبيين القدماء حيث يذكر بعض الأدلة التى تثبت هذه الصلة والتى من بينها :
Source: د. محمد علي عيسى
أستاذ الآثار والحضارات القديمة (Dr. M. Isa, Prof of archeology and ancient civilizations). (He is not Europtian at all).
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Sorry Mazigh but you are spouting the nonsense that has long been proposed by white Euro science to try and posit an ancient presence of whites in North Afr....
I think you didn't read the comments. The green one was replaced by the light-blue ones. The first one (green) is dated from 22 000 - 12 000 (Mechta-afalou/North African Cro-magnon), second one is the Capsian (the immediate ancestor of the modern Berbers) from 12 000 - 6000 b.c.
The depiction of white people from the sahara circa 6000 b.c. is not eurocentric. Because it denies the Europian origin of the white Libyans (Tamhou, Libu..).
If necessary, then whitecentric, but it can be others, it is whether those white Libyans came from Europa or originated in North Africa.
Since, 6000 b.c. is far enough for supposed Europian migration (sea people -+ 1200 b.c), then those white people are originating in North Africa.
عن أصل التمحو فقد ظهرت فى هذا الموضوع نظريتان : يرى أصحاب النظرية الأولى بأن التمحو جاءوا مهاجرين من قارة أوروبا إلى شمال افريقيا ثم توغلوا إلى الجنوب ويروا بأنهم ينحدرون من قبائل الوندال أو أى جنس شمالى آخر ويستند أصحاب هذه النظرية كدليل علىذلك من خلال السمات التى يمتازبها التمحو عن بقية الليبيين مثل : الشعر الأصفر والعيون الزرقاء والبشـرة البيضاء ولكن هذه النظرية لا تستقيم مع ما اثبتناه أعلاه من وجود هذه المجموعة السكانية ذات الشعر الأصفر والبشرة البيضاء فى الصحراء الكبرى منذ الألف السادسة قبل الميلاد وتتعارض مع ما أكدت عليه البحوث الأثرية عن عدم استعمال الإنسان للبحر قبل الألف الخامسة قبل الميلاد، بالإضافة إلى عدم وجود أيــة قرائن تـفيد بأن المجموعات السكانية الأوروبيـة وصلـت منطـقة الـصحراء الكبرى كمهاجرين فى أى فترة من فترات التاريخ القديم، والجدير بالذكر أن أول اتصال أوروبى بمنطقة شمال افريقيا كان فى حدود نهاية الألف الثانية قبل الميلاد مع وصول المجموعات المعروفة باسم شعوب البحر الذين حاولوا الاستيطان فى منطقة وادى النيل وكما هو معروف لدى الجميع فان تلك المحاولة لم يصادفها النجاح على كل حال أما أصحاب النظرية الثانية فيروا بأن التمحو هم مواطنون افريقيون سلكوا طريقهم من الجنوب الغربى من الصحراء متجهين نحو الشمال والشمال الشرقى ويرى بعض العلماء بأن القوم الذين أطلق عليهم العلماء اسم المجموعة (ج)، والذين عثر على آثارهم بمنطقة النوبة هــم فرع من التمحو وانهم ليبيون. ويشير(اوريك بيتس)(17) بأن مخلفاتهم تتفق ومخلفات الليبيين القدماء حيث يذكر بعض الأدلة التى تثبت هذه الصلة والتى من بينها :
Source: د. محمد علي عيسى
أستاذ الآثار والحضارات القديمة (Dr. M. Isa, Prof of archeology and ancient civilizations). (He is not Europtian at all).
.
Whoa there fake Berber boy, How did the Sea people get to be White.
Here are two examples; perhaps you can demonstrate.
(BTW - What's with posting stuff with those wiggly lines? Is that Italian?)
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Wally - I apologize for all of us ignoramuses who were fooling around during hieroglyphics class, and consequently reached adulthood completely unprepared for the real world.
Please show your great magnanimity, and generosity of heart, by translating each of the three panels. LOL, Wally has an Ego, let him revel in his little world. So the light skinned people depicted are Lybians.
The depiction of white people from the sahara circa 6000 b.c. is not eurocentric. Because it denies the Europian origin of the white Libyans (Tamhou, Libu..).
If necessary, then whitecentric, but it can be others, it is whether those white Libyans came from Europa or originated in North Africa.
Since, 6000 b.c. is far enough for supposed Europian migration (sea people -+ 1200 b.c), then those white people are originating in North Africa.
Thats the thing it IS EUROCENTRIC...Becuase Eurocentics use the Blond White Berbers to justify the idea that White could have a "Nordic desert Empire".lol.
Im all open to the idea that White or Tawny populations inhabited coastal parts of N.A, attracted by the age old civilization of the Nile and Mesopotamia. Also it seems that Black North Africans had advanced culture on par with Egypt as seen by the advanced mummy of Ian Maggiag. However these people would resemble Zidane not some Blond Nordics. I believe the blondism came from invasions and intermixing with Europeans.
Looking at the original art on the wall in Seti's Tomb, the Lybians depicted are not pale skinned at all they look more "Tawny" like Zidane...to me.
Again I need to study the genetics of the Berber populations to get a better idea of their mixed diversity.
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: wally cannot translate Mike. If it says apple, he writes down orange.
Not knowing Wally, I thought it best to give him a chance - can't say that I didn't ask nicely. Now lets see what happens.
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Im all open to the idea that White or Tawny populations inhabited coastal parts of N.A, attracted by the age old civilization of the Nile and Mesopotamia. Also it seems that Black North Africans had advanced culture on par with Egypt as seen by the advanced mummy of Ian Maggiag. However these people would resemble Zidane not some Blond Nordics. I believe the blondism came from invasions and intermixing with Europeans.
Looking at the original art on the wall in Seti's Tomb, the Lybians depicted are not pale skinned at all they look more "Tawny" like Zidane...to me.
Again I need to study the genetics of the Berber populations to get a better idea of their mixed diversity.
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That's what you want to believe; but you will find that the evidence does NOT support your wish.
Note this Mitanni; He is depicted as pale-skinned, but yet is clearly a Black man.
The lesson here, is that historical knowledge is necessary; because different pigments react differently over time. Some become lighter, and some become darker - because of the great time periods involved, these considerations must be taken into account.
A true and non-racist understanding of history, tells us that the first Whites did not come until the invasion of Cyrene by the White Dorian Greeks.
Im all open to the idea that White or Tawny populations inhabited coastal parts of N.A, attracted by the age old civilization of the Nile and Mesopotamia. Also it seems that Black North Africans had advanced culture on par with Egypt as seen by the advanced mummy of Ian Maggiag. However these people would resemble Zidane not some Blond Nordics. I believe the blondism came from invasions and intermixing with Europeans.
Looking at the original art on the wall in Seti's Tomb, the Lybians depicted are not pale skinned at all they look more "Tawny" like Zidane...to me.
Again I need to study the genetics of the Berber populations to get a better idea of their mixed diversity.
.
That's what you want to believe; but you will find that the evidence does NOT support your wish.
Note this Mitanni; He is depicted as pale-skinned, but yet is clearly a Black man.
The lesson here, is that historical knowledge is necessary; because different pigments react differently over time. Some become lighter, and some become darker - because of the great time periods involved, these considerations must be taken into account.
A true and non-racist understanding of history, tells us that the first Whites did not come until the invasion of Cyrene by the White Dorian Greeks.
Mike111 your premise does not make an sense, and I say this in the true sense of respect in a debate sense.
For one right next to these Lybians are Neheshy Kushites as Black as Midnight. So why did the Lybians color fade away while the Neheshy did not and the color of their garments remain in tact??
Mike111 I have seen this sort of reasoning(The whole the Color Faded, or "darkened" idea) with Eurocentrics like Mathilda to justify all the Black Egyptian sculpture being dug up.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Mike111 your premise does not make an sense, and I say this in the true sense of respect in a debate sense.
For one right next to these Lybians are Neheshy Kushites as Black as Midnight. So why did the Lybians color fade away while the Neheshy did not and the color of their garments remain in tact??
Mike111 I have seen this sort of reasoning(The whole the Color Faded, or "darkened" idea) with Eurocentrics like Mathilda to justify all the Black Egyptian sculpture being dug up.
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Jari-Ankhamun - One cannot debate - respectfully or otherwise - if one cannot keep up.
My answer to the cartoon drawing was this:
Jari-Ankhamun - No, they are not Turkish invaders; They are cartoon characters made up by each successive wave of pathetic White and wannabe White boys, desperately needing to find something White to hang onto - and when not finding it, then having to make something up - IT'S A FAKE DRAWING NUMB-NUTS.
The Mitanni tile was a DIFFERENT issue, meant to educate you. You MUST try to keep up!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: I agree that White Lybians arrived earlier than sea people This is the right beginning
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Mazigh - What is this nonsense that you and Jari-Ankhamun agree on - White Lybians???
Except in your delusional dreams, where could these ghost people have come from, and what evidence is there for their existence?
Again this is an image of White Lybians...
These people probably came from migrations from the East or from Southern Europe and settled and adopted the culture of the original Berber and Black North Africans.
more:
Shomarka Keita, a biological anthropologist from Howard University, has claimed that populations in Carthage circa 200 BC and northern Algeria 1500 BC were very diverse. As a group, they plotted closest to the populations of Northern Egypt and intermediate to Northern Europeans and tropical Africans. Keita claimed that "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance." Modern evidence showed a similar diversity among present North Africans. Moreover, this "diversity" of phenotypes and peoples was probably due to in situ differentiation, not foreign influxes. Of course foreign influxes certainly had an impact but they did not replace the indigenous Berber population.
What are we to make of this Mike111, Turkish invaders??? Or Wait They are a rejected albino Colony of the Black Lybians right..LMAO
For once or twice I have to agree with Mike on this take on the white Libyans here. Why are these people painted by some European colonialist with very white skin and tiny braids that can only come from having African hair. They are probably wearing typical henna. Where is the original painting of these so-called white Libyans who if they were fair had to have been of partly black African descent. I am really getting tired of seeing this painting of chalk white people with tiny braids and small Fulani sidelocks and beards on their chins and Nubian or Medjay feathers as if such a thing can exist. Can somebody at least post the real painting so we can see the real color they were ORIGINally!.
I would agree that there could have been some mulatto late Libyans that were ancestral to some of the Tuareg, but certainly not looking like this.
I agree with mazigh also that Diop was wrong in asserting that Berbers were people of the sea. The original Berbers were Africans and probably Iforas or Afar people of North and East Africa.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Im all open to the idea that White or Tawny populations inhabited coastal parts of N.A, attracted by the age old civilization of the Nile and Mesopotamia. Also it seems that Black North Africans had advanced culture on par with Egypt as seen by the advanced mummy of Ian Maggiag. However these people would resemble Zidane not some Blond Nordics. I believe the blondism came from invasions and intermixing with Europeans.
Looking at the original art on the wall in Seti's Tomb, the Lybians depicted are not pale skinned at all they look more "Tawny" like Zidane...to me.
Again I need to study the genetics of the Berber populations to get a better idea of their mixed diversity.
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That's what you want to believe; but you will find that the evidence does NOT support your wish.
Note this Mitanni; He is depicted as pale-skinned, but yet is clearly a Black man.
The lesson here, is that historical knowledge is necessary; because different pigments react differently over time. Some become lighter, and some become darker - because of the great time periods involved, these considerations must be taken into account.
A true and non-racist understanding of history, tells us that the first Whites did not come until the invasion of Cyrene by the White Dorian Greeks.
This is also a great example of how depictions done by ancient Egyptians that have paint coming off of them are displayed in books and museums in order for people to think they were nor originally colored. Other good examples are the sitting Old kingdom scribes in Old Kingdom Egypt.
Even without the paint coming off one can see what this man is Not. LOOK CLOSELY!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Im all open to the idea that White or Tawny populations inhabited coastal parts of N.A, attracted by the age old civilization of the Nile and Mesopotamia. Also it seems that Black North Africans had advanced culture on par with Egypt as seen by the advanced mummy of Ian Maggiag. However these people would resemble Zidane not some Blond Nordics. I believe the blondism came from invasions and intermixing with Europeans.
Looking at the original art on the wall in Seti's Tomb, the Lybians depicted are not pale skinned at all they look more "Tawny" like Zidane...to me.
Again I need to study the genetics of the Berber populations to get a better idea of their mixed diversity.
.
That's what you want to believe; but you will find that the evidence does NOT support your wish.
Note this Mitanni; He is depicted as pale-skinned, but yet is clearly a Black man.
The lesson here, is that historical knowledge is necessary; because different pigments react differently over time. Some become lighter, and some become darker - because of the great time periods involved, these considerations must be taken into account.
A true and non-racist understanding of history, tells us that the first Whites did not come until the invasion of Cyrene by the White Dorian Greeks.
But, this man may not have been originally depicted with pale skin and is also a great example of how depictions done by ancient Egyptians that have paint coming off of them are displayed in books and museums in order for people to think they were not originally darker colored. Other good examples are the sitting Old kingdom scribes in Old Kingdom Egypt.
Even with the paint coming off anyone can see what this man is and is NOT.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Sorry Mazigh but you are spouting the nonsense that has long been proposed by white Euro science to try and posit an ancient presence of whites in North Afr....
I think you didn't read the comments. The green one was replaced by the light-blue ones. The first one (green) is dated from 22 000 - 12 000 (Mechta-afalou/North African Cro-magnon), second one is the Capsian (the immediate ancestor of the modern Berbers) from 12 000 - 6000 b.c.
The depiction of white people from the sahara circa 6000 b.c. is not eurocentric. Because it denies the Europian origin of the white Libyans (Tamhou, Libu..).
If necessary, then whitecentric, but it can be others, it is whether those white Libyans came from Europa or originated in North Africa.
Since, 6000 b.c. is far enough for supposed Europian migration (sea people -+ 1200 b.c), then those white people are originating in North Africa.
عن أصل التمحو فقد ظهرت فى هذا الموضوع نظريتان : يرى أصحاب النظرية الأولى بأن التمحو جاءوا مهاجرين من قارة أوروبا إلى شمال افريقيا ثم توغلوا إلى الجنوب ويروا بأنهم ينحدرون من قبائل الوندال أو أى جنس شمالى آخر ويستند أصحاب هذه النظرية كدليل علىذلك من خلال السمات التى يمتازبها التمحو عن بقية الليبيين مثل : الشعر الأصفر والعيون الزرقاء والبشـرة البيضاء ولكن هذه النظرية لا تستقيم مع ما اثبتناه أعلاه من وجود هذه المجموعة السكانية ذات الشعر الأصفر والبشرة البيضاء فى الصحراء الكبرى منذ الألف السادسة قبل الميلاد وتتعارض مع ما أكدت عليه البحوث الأثرية عن عدم استعمال الإنسان للبحر قبل الألف الخامسة قبل الميلاد، بالإضافة إلى عدم وجود أيــة قرائن تـفيد بأن المجموعات السكانية الأوروبيـة وصلـت منطـقة الـصحراء الكبرى كمهاجرين فى أى فترة من فترات التاريخ القديم، والجدير بالذكر أن أول اتصال أوروبى بمنطقة شمال افريقيا كان فى حدود نهاية الألف الثانية قبل الميلاد مع وصول المجموعات المعروفة باسم شعوب البحر الذين حاولوا الاستيطان فى منطقة وادى النيل وكما هو معروف لدى الجميع فان تلك المحاولة لم يصادفها النجاح على كل حال أما أصحاب النظرية الثانية فيروا بأن التمحو هم مواطنون افريقيون سلكوا طريقهم من الجنوب الغربى من الصحراء متجهين نحو الشمال والشمال الشرقى ويرى بعض العلماء بأن القوم الذين أطلق عليهم العلماء اسم المجموعة (ج)، والذين عثر على آثارهم بمنطقة النوبة هــم فرع من التمحو وانهم ليبيون. ويشير(اوريك بيتس)(17) بأن مخلفاتهم تتفق ومخلفات الليبيين القدماء حيث يذكر بعض الأدلة التى تثبت هذه الصلة والتى من بينها :
Source: د. محمد علي عيسى
أستاذ الآثار والحضارات القديمة (Dr. M. Isa, Prof of archeology and ancient civilizations). (He is not Europtian at all).
Post some pictures of white people in the Sahara 6,000 B.C., Mazigh. This is what happens when frequent Eurocentric sites and come back to African ones.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Where is the original painting of these so-called white Libyans who if they were fair had to have been of partly black African descent.
Well, I've done it so many times that I've become tired of debunking Minutoli's cartoon caricature of Seti I's version of scene 30 from The Book of Gates The Gate of Teka Hra, but since you asked ...
_____ Tomb photo _________ Lepsius' repro
This is the only nearly intact Temehhi left on the 18th dynasty tomb. The head hair is locked, complemented with braided sidelock. The skin is creamy. The body is tattooed. Plumes adorn the goatee bearded head. A cloak clasped at the shoulder covers the torso whose only other covering is a penistache. The hair is not blond nor red. The eye is not blue nor grey.
Faience tile from Ramses III palace.
Here with face and colour intact we see Minutoli deliberately applied his own racial caricatures to the Tamehu of Seti I's tomb supplied by Jari.
This is generally how the class Tjemehu were depicted in New Kingdom times. However nuances in dress and style allows for in class distinction between R/Libu, Meshwesh, etc.
Diop was mistaken in calling the people in these various BG 4:5 s30 paintings Aryans. He followed Champollion who wanted to find his own ancestry in the ancient North Africans.
BTW -- this thread also has two images of NHHSW misidentified as "Libyans." The clothes of the one and the hairstyle and adornment of the other serve to identify the two as ancient Sudanese.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Diop has pretty much been discredited by classical scholars. These afrloon like much of what he says so they assume he is correct. Those they do not like they dismiss.
I have to agree, Diop has been totally discredited and the Afronuts who followed him are being discredited as well.
Posts: 156 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Mar 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Diop has pretty much been discredited by classical scholars. These afrloon like much of what he says so they assume he is correct. Those they do not like they dismiss.
I have to agree, Diop has been totally discredited and the Afronuts who followed him are being discredited as well.
ALERT! ANOTHER LOONEY TOON IMPOSTER, THIS TIME MASQUERADING AS DJEHUTI, WHO IS AN ESTABLISHED AND RESPECTED POSTER HERE.
HOW SAD THESE JEALOUS AND INSECURE PEOPLE...Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Diop has pretty much been discredited by classical scholars. These afrloon like much of what he says so they assume he is correct. Those they do not like they dismiss.
Actually dummy, Diop's research has been validated by far more objective "classic" researchers than those who have psychological motives to refute him.
Posts: 2403 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
To the cheap knock-off of myself as well as to Hammer: Prove exactly how Diop was discredited??
From what I recall, all scientific evidence has only verified what he has stated all along-- that ancient Egyptians were black Africans!
Of course Diop was refuted on other things like say the existence of 'race' or that "mongoloids" are the result of admixture between blacks and whites, but we shouldn't forget that Diop was a man of his time and such theories were only in line with previous racial theories concocted by white scholars. However, his main thesis which is the subject of this forum remains-- Egyptians were blacks. GET OVER IT.
As for the topic of this thread, there is no 'problem' whatsoever. Linguistics has proven and demonstrated quite clearly that Berber is a branch of Afrasian just like Egyptian and Chadic. It is an African language and one that was no doubt spoken solely by blacks at first. Just because there happens to be white Berber speakers especially on the North African coasts does not negate the African identity or affinity of the language no more than the presence of black Indo-European speakers in the Indian continent negates the European affinities of Indo-European! This has been explained ad-naseum but apparently some minds are too stupid or too stubborn to accept facts and move on-- something that Diop as intelligent as he was would never do.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Or Wait They are a rejected albino Colony of the Black Lybians right..LMAO 
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What does the "Tjeker" have on their heads? Two feathers or Corns or else?
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