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Hodeida in the Yemenite part of Tihama "between Zabid and Rema'a"- land of Barak and Deborah and the brook of Kishon or Kush where were once settled the Ghassan (Jokshan) group of the Azd (see below)
AFRICANS IN ARABIA: Israelites, Canaanites and Hyksos in Context Part I
Understanding the south Arabian roots of the Biblical stories helps to explain such enigmas as why the Jewish historian Josephus equates ancestors of the Hebrews with the “the king shepherds”or Hyksos who invaded Ta Khemau; the origins of Lemba, Falasha and ancient Aramaean Jews at Elephantine; why so many African traditions claimed Canaan especially Berbers as an ancestral land; why myth and cosmogony of ancient Egypt and so many of the deities of African cosmogony resemble Semitic Greek and "Indic-Aryan" mythology, as well as why so little evidence of ancient Israelite history has been found in Syria/Palestine.
African Arabians to know
Banu Azd/Set or Seth Banu Ghassan/Jokshan or Kushan Azd Sanuah/ Hassenuah Musaikiya/ Moses Jafnah/ Jephunnah Jazar the Khazraj Shu’aib/ Shuwa Sirr Zahra/ Sisera Masruh/ Misrah Amlukh/Amalek Djurham/Hadoram Tay Barik/ Barak Madhij – Madiau Hamdan / Hamdan Kalb/ Caleb the Calebites Bal Kayn/ Kenites Qunays/Kenaz Thaur/ Shur Amurat/Murad – the Amorites Anmar Daus/ Jeush bin Nahath Azd Sarah - Sarah Banu Hajur/ Hagar Azd Sanuah/ Hassenuah
THE CHILDREN OF SETH or the historical Banu Azd
“The Hyksos worshipped the god Seth and also introduced him into the Egyptian pantheon. The term “children of Seth” signifies worshippers of Seth, or Hyksos. Thus the references to the Amalekites and to the children of Seth by Balaam reveal the identity of these two designations.” Quoted from Immanuel Velikovsky’s , Ages in Chaos first published 1952.
“It is true that a central Hyksos deity was Seth, the god of foreigners.” Russell Gmirkin (2006). Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch, p. 174.
First it is of use to know that the Arabic writers outside of the Arabian peninsula referred to the Azd (lions) and the Azd groupings as “black” more than a few times. One of the hadiths or Quranic commentaries cited by Tariq Berry and written by a 16th century Sufi scholar Najim al-Din describes the “Hebrew” Moses as “jet black skinned as if he were one of the Azd”. Another passage mentioned by Berry quoted from a book known as Futuh es Sama says that Ubadah bin Samit of the Khazraj clan of Medinah was “black as if he was from the Sanuah”. The tribe of Azd Sanuah is meant. “The Hyksos worshipped the god Seth and also introduced him into the Egyptian pantheon. The term “children of Seth” signifies worshippers of Seth, or Hyksos. Thus the references to the Amalekites and to the children of Seth by Balaam reveal the identity of these two designations.” Quoted from Immanuel Velikovsky’s , Ages in Chaos first published 1952. “It is true that a central Hyksos deity was Seth, the god of foreigners.” Russell Gmirkin (2006). Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch, p. 174.
In the late 19th century Roger Upton noted the tradition of Azd and other tribes of Yemen:-
“Among the tribes from Kahlan, seven are to be mentioned: …Al Azd …Tay… Madhej… Hamdan …Kenda ,,,,Morad and Anmar. The chief families from the tribe Azd were – (1.) Gassan, who dispossessed banu Salih, and reigned in Syria Damascus in their stead. (2.) Al Aus. (3.) Al-Khazaraj, who dwelt at Yathirah (Madina), from which tribe it is said were those who assisted Mohammed in his flight. (4.) Khozaah; which tribe, having been obliged to depart from Yaman on account of the inundation of Arem, betook themselves to the valley of Marrah, near Mekka, …(5.) Barek, which people derived their name from the place near which they settled. (6.) Daus, who occupied a kingdom on the confines of Erack. (7.) Atik. 8. Gafek. Also Banu Jalandah...” See p. 108, Gleanings from the Desert of Arabia, Roger Upton , 1881.
This movement is well documented in the Bible as the movement of the Midianites and early Israel from Marib to the Tihama area of Yemen. The tribes in the Bible are referred to as Kushan or Jokshan (a branch of the Midianites), Uz son of Aram (al Aus), Jazar or Gezer (Khazaras), Hazo or Huz (Khaz’a), Barak (Barek) and Jeush (Daus bin Udthan). The leaders of the Azd are accounted Moses (Muzaikiya), Amran (soothsayer Amran said to be Aaron or else the father of Moses), Ru’el (Al Arawi) leader of the Midianites, and the first “judges” of Israel including Jephunnah (Jafna), Kaleb (Kalb), Kenaz (Qunays) and Othni’el son of Kenaz among others.
KUSHAN (Gassan) descendants of the “House of Jafnah”
“When it is said the green (Khudar) Ghassan …what is meant is the blackness of their complexion.” Ibn Manduri of Tunisia, Lisaan al Arab Vol. 1, cited in Tariq Berry’s The Unkown Arabs, 2007
“The Khudar (blacks) of the Ghassan belong of the royal house of Jafna.” From Al Jahiz 9th century from the text, Al- Fakhr al- Sudan min al-Abyadh
They are the Arabian people Gassan or Ghassan - also originally known as Azd Sanuah who became better known as “the house of Jafnah” . The Ghassan only moved north from the Arabian peninsula (Hejaz) into Syria around the 1st century AD becoming allies of Rome and tributary to the Banu Salih. (p. 101, Rome in the East by Warwick Ball, 2002.) There settlements were in lower Syria where they founded the Ghassanid kingdom with its capital was at Bosra in Syria (not to be confused with the Basra of Iraq). The Ghassanid Christians extended their kingdom by the 5th century from Medina to the Golan Heights and occupied what is now Lebanon and Israel. It was allied with the Byzantines as a vassal state against the Lakhmids (Banu Lakhem) who were allied to the Sassanids. Their kingdom remained strong until they were overcome by the Afro-Arabian tribes of the Kenaani (Canaanites) and Khazraj- Aus (also Azd tribes) from the Hejaz who were led by a Kenaani Quraysh tribal leader and prophet named Mohammed -pbuh.
Previous to their occupying Syria, however, the Gassan had occupied the southern Hejaz or Tihama and Yemen for thousands of years. Before the early Christian era they are called Kasandreis, Gasandenses and Kassanitae by Ptolemy and other ancient Greeks and Romans. (Jan Retso The Arabs in Antiquity, p. 299, 2003) and see the Historical Geography of Arabia, 2004 edition, p. 247
They are in fact the Midianites or Jokshan of the Biblical book of Genesis. Kushi, Midian and Ethiopian are names for the same people in certain parts of the Bible. The Biblical book of Habakkuk 3:7 speaks of Jokshan as Kushan. According to David Goldenberg the name for the Midianite land of Kushan was shortened to Kush by later interpreters “and therefore rendered the word Ethiopians”. P. 230 The Curse of Ham, 2003. Kush came to be the equivalent of blackness among later Judaized and Christianized Syrians and Europeans. A European Jewish Targum text Song 1:5 employs the phrase “as black as the Kushi who live in the tents of Kedar”.
It is written in Habbakuk, “The curtains of Kushan were troubled, and the tents of Madian were shaking.” Judges 4:13 refers to the valley there as the torrent valley of Kishon.” Al Masudi speaking of the Azd under Muzaikiya states - 'They continued on their way and came to a camp between the land of the Aharites and Akk, near a pool named Gassan, between two valleys called Zebid and Rima, and they drank the water of the pool." (The word Kush or Kishon is probably etymologically related to the term “gush” as in the gushing of water. ) The area of Hodeidah in the Tihama in Yemen possesses “ Wadi Zabid and Remaa’ in the south” . (see photo)
The pool of Ghasan noted by al-Masudi with reference to the Azd is the body of water from which the Banu Gassan (Kushan or Jokshan of the Hebrew) took their name. The brook of Zabid in the Tihama is refered to as “Zerid”. The Tihama is in fact referred to by Ibn Mudjawir as “Kush” as late as the 13th century.
According to Francis J. Steingass in his translation of The Assemblies, by al Hariri, in the Arabian tradition the Biblical Moses and Amran (who sometimes said to be either Aaron or the father of Moses) are leaders of the Azd in Yemen, “The tradition related by Mas’udi is that Amran the diviner indicated the direction that each family should take according to its strength and courage. Those who followed Amr Muzaikiya himself journeyed to the land of Akk which is on the seacoast in the Northern part of Yemen, and were received hospitably by the tribes. Here they established themselves, according to Mas’udi, near a pool called Ghassan, from which they afterwards took their name; and here ‘Amr died. He was succeeded by his son Tha’labeh, in whose time or soon after it, the emigrants, who were called from their ancestor the Benu Azd, came into the district of Mecca, and either destroyed or greatly reduced the power of Jorhom.” (See p. 425 of The Assemblies of Al Hariri: The First Twenty-Six Assemblies, 1867.) Phillip Hitti also wrote, “… al-Azd had settled near a spring called Ghassan. Hence their name, Ghassan.” Hitti’s, translation of The origins of the Islamic State by al Baladhuri, published 1916.
Thus after escaping the dam at Marib (Meriba of the book of Exodus 17) and the “flood of Aram”, the Azd settled near a brook in Yemen called “Kishon” in the Bible and in Arabic called “Ghassan”. A torrent took place there at the time of the Biblical Barak, Sisera and Deborah.
BARAK - The movement of the Banu Barik (mentioned above by Upton) is closely intertwined with the Biblical story of the “torrent of Kishon” or Gassan, the brook “near Zabid”. Barak is credited with defeating the Canaanite (Banu Kenaani) army of Sisera from which comes the name of modern Sirr Zahra in Jizan (see Kamal Salibi, The Bible Came from Arabia).
Judges 4:7 of the Bible reads: “And I will draw out Sisera, the general of Jabin’s army, to meet you by the river Kishon with his chariots and his troops, and I will give him into your hand’?” Judges 4:15 "When Barak attacked, the LORD threw Sisera and all his chariots and warriors into a panic. Sisera leaped down from his chariot and escaped on foot…"
To be continued
Men of Wadi Zabid although showing admixture retain the dark complexions of the early or original Arabians.
"'They continued on their way and came to a camp between the land of the Aharites and Akk, near a pool named Gassan, between two valleys called Zebid and Rima, and they drank the water of the pool."
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Good Read man. I have studied the "Hyksos" period and do believe they were the Hebrews prior to their exodus and establishment of the Kingdom of Israel.
More
Look at this pic, see how the Arabian/Hebrew Blacks fit in with the Egyptian in the boat at the Center bottom pic.
Keep this in mind when reading Exodus on how Moses was mistaken for an Egyptian by the Bedoin's Daughters and how the Brothers of Joseph could not recognize him when he was dressed as an Egyptian official.
Elamite
Good Pics and Info Dana!!!
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Matamoros: Good Read man. I have studied the "Hyksos" period and do believe they were the Hebrews prior to their exodus and establishment of the Kingdom of Israel.
More
Look at this pic, see how the Arabian/Hebrew Blacks fit in with the Egyptian in the boat at the Center bottom pic.
Keep this in mind when reading Exodus on how Moses was mistaken for an Egyptian by the Bedoin's Daughters and how the Brothers of Joseph could not recognize him when he was dressed as an Egyptian official.
Elamite
Good Pics and Info Dana!!!
Thanks Jari, but as you will see in other parts Joseph and other descendants of Manasseh and the Israelites were in fact like these Misraim all belonging to people of "Ethiopic" appearance.
By the way the photos you have posted are mainly those of Africans. The top one is of Tuareg.
The one I posted of the man living in the site of an Elamite town is of course not African. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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All this just confirms that "Jew" "Israelite" is again an invention. There is no blood Jew or Israelite. No agreement over the "origins" of the story. And of course no evidence any of the founding fathers really existed. Tracing the stories to southern Arabia is not establishing historical validity of the founding figures.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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In once sense you are right because the Israelites and the people of South Arabia and the Abyssinians were one and the same people. Of course there is no archeological evidence outside of Egyptian hieroglyphs or texts naming Hyksos rulers which seem to suggest the names of Israelite/Canaanite rulers.
On the other hand their is genetic evidence of Kohanim as you are already aware of and archeological evidence that the historical villages composing the Israel of the Old Testament or Pentateuch was in the Asir region. The early Kahin were the ancient Arabian rainmaker/magicians and soothsayers later translated as "priests".
My point was that there is no Hebrew or Jewish genealogy outside of Abyssinian and ancient Arabian tribal genealogy.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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To argue that ancient Hebrews are really early Arabian tribes men is a revolutionary suggestion. You may be on to something, but wouldn't this call into question the stories as we know it from founding fathers etc? Or is it a case where we just swap their origins and leave the main themes in tact?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: To argue that ancient Hebrews are really early Arabian tribes men is a revolutionary suggestion. You may be on to something, but wouldn't this call into question the stories as we know it from founding fathers etc? Or is it a case where we just swap their origins and leave the main themes in tact?
I don't see how that contradicts the Biblical and Torah accounts. The Hebrews traced Abraham to the land of the Chaldeans in Mesopotamia. Its clear that Dana makes a connection to Mesopotamians and black Southern Tribes in Arabia.
For people like me who uphold the accounts in the Bible as based on historical events this is the research we need to look at, and not the Europeans ideology that the Jews in Israel today are the people. Something does'nt add up.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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So Abraham is suppose to be Chaldean or Southern Arabian? Was he "commanded" to go to Levant or South Arabia. If I was confused before about official Hebrew account now I'm focking dizzly!
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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As a rule for etymologies with so-called Afro-Asiatic, always first consult the African languages, including Niger-Congo. Because KUSH has nothing to do with “gushing water” as it has several meanings. We can observe in ciLuba these examples, as compared to the Egyptian:
quote: Egyptian >>> Ciluba >>> meaning K3s >>> Kasa >>> be strong, hard, tough, difficult, often kashila = kasa-kana "be strong, be very difficult, very hard to be very resistant" K3s >>> Kasa (di-/mi-) >>> foot K3s >>> Kasa = sanka >>> be happy, be joyous, be content K3s >>> Kasha, Kashi, Kashia >>> esp. antelope with long legs, akin to the antelope Ntole (e, a, o) K3s >>> Kasha, Kashi, Kashia >>> eel; plur. : Tush, Tushia> Tusi, Tushi. K3S Kashi small root, root small, plur. : Tush, Tujia, Tuzi K3s >>> Kashi, Kaji >>> Dancer, plur. Tushi >>>> Kanza, Kanji, Kanshi, Kaashi >>> which began with (the verb: anza) above, previous R Nb. Ka-is a diminutive prefix. Its plural is: Tu) >>>> Kasha, Kenza, Keesa >>> find, scan >>>> kesha, keza, kenza >>> cause, occasion, bring about K3s >>> Kesa >>> be happy, rejoice >>>> Keshia >>> yesterday, tomorrow >>>> Keshio (n-/lu-) >>> tomorrow morning K3s >>> Kosh > nKoshi, diKoshi, iKoshi >>> neck, occiput K3s >>> Kosh > nKoshi, diKoshi, Ikoshi >>> Viceroy or chief second from the first is said Mpala (pr-a3). The viceroy is also called Mwena-Mpala not in the sense of "Master of Mpala, but rather Mwana-a-Mpala" Son of Mpala, Young-Mpala, Mpala-Junior. K3s >>> Koshi, Konzi, Konji >>> rope, liana (thin or small); plur.: Nyos, Nyiosh, Nyonzi K3s >>> Kusa >>> rub ointment, polishing, grating K3s >>> Kushi (i), mpulushi >>> Redeemer, Savior. Hence: bu-kushi, redemption, protector, salvation K3s >>> Kwesha >>> winnowing, discern K3s >>> Kweshi >>> winnower, discerner, scout and is related to Mweshi, Mwezi, Mweji, Mwenji = moon K3s >>> Kwish, kunshi >>> down below, below, in the south >>>> mwekesha >>> Exhibit, disclose, bring forth Nhsy >>> Nangisha >>> to love, to desire Nhsy >>> Nangish >>> Exceed exaggerate Nhsy >>> Nangish >>> heat the skin of the drum so that it sounds better >>> >>> Nekesh = bekesh >>> Exaggerate, make too >>> >>> Nengesh >>> Make it last longer Nhsy >>> Ngashi, Ngazi >>> Red palm nuts Nhsy >>> Ngeshi, Ngezi >>> basketry, van, winnower, to think what think, discern, sorts Nhsy >>> Nkasa >>> musical instrument percussion éteuf Nhsy >>> Nkasa = Nkusa [Ngiisu, luKus(e,a)] >>> younger, youngest Nhsy >>> Nkasa, luKus(e,a) >>> younger, youngest Nhsy >>> Nkashi (a-) = Nkushio >>> left Nhsy >>> Nkeesha = Ncisha = paCyacya >>> Morning Star, dawn, dawn, early morning Nhsy >>> Nkesho >>> morning (good) day Nhsy >>> Nkisi >>> medicine, remedy protection; talisman. (Noba in Niger-Kongo is a healer). This meaning is used in Kikongo. In Ciluba was mu-Kushi / ba-Kushi, nKushi "savior, redeemer, protector" and Bwanga "medicine, remedy." Nhsy >>> Nkishi >>> returning, rescussité Nhsy >>> Nkoshi = Nkozi = nSokomenu, cyeyemenu >>> shelter, refuge Nhsy >>> Nkoso <mu-/ci-Koso >>> palm fiber Nhsy >>> Nkoso <mu-Koso >>> slander made to bring discord and cause a rupture Nhsy >>> Nkusi, Ngiisu >>> younger, youngest Nhsy >>> Nkushio = a nkashi, cimosu, ciboko >>> left >>> >>> Nyekeshia >>> Perpetuate, extend (infinitely = Nyeki Nyeki) Nhsy >>> Nyishi, Ngishi >>> Electric Catfish
Two terms should stand out here.
K3s >>> Kwish, kunshi >>> down below, below, in the south, and Nhsy >>> Nyishi, Ngishi >>> Electric Catfish
Now we know that modern Egyptologists usually render NHSY to mean "southerner." The Kushites were those Africans who lived in Sudan or ancient "Ethiopia." What the linguistics confirm here is that Menes or Aha, whose symbol was a CATFISH, was in fact a Nhsy (Nyishi, Nigshi) as this could have been a totem.
K3S/NHSY both relate to the names Kush/Cush/Kush and Nehasiu aka Ethiopians. Saying Nkesh (a, i, o), Ngesha (i, a), Ngashi, Nkashi, Nkushio, Nekesh (a, i, e), Kesh (a, i, o), Kash (a, i), Kasa/Kesa, Kosh, Kush (i) Kwisha (i) gives you a better rendering and can be matched to living languages. These ancient Kushites (Bantu speakers now belonging to the Luba family of languages) still live "south, below" ancient Ta-Mry (Kongo, Sudan, Uganda, Ethiopia, Kenya).
I think, based on the evidence, that the name "narmer" is incorrect. The narmer name should read Bu-kulu (Horus/Hrw/Khulu) Nyishi.
Going into the African languages prevents us from making guesses on the proper interpretation of Egyptian (even Biblical) terms. I will deal with the ethonym Hebrew in a separate post.
The Egyptian script is syllabic. The catfish and the chizzle in this case represents the sounds shi and pa (ib not mr). Mushipa means fish. Remember Nyishi means "electric catfish." Tusi, Tushi, Tush means "eel" in modern ciLuba, but more than likely referred to the electric charge of the eel or the burst of energy, thus why the frantic bird "determinative" with the tsha (tusi) value.
Either way you have electric catfish, which is more than likely Powerful Catfish. All referring to a people who lived in the "south" K3s/Kush/Nhsy (Nyishi)
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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[QUOTE]One thins is certain either the early Arabians settled in the same places mentioned in the Bible and named hundreds of places after their homeland in Palestine or else the history of the early Biblical peoples has been severely distorted.
The fact remains there is no evidence for an Exodus from Israel nor even much evidence for Old Testament geographical in Palestine. There are only a handful of names there and even many of those don't correspond to the places they are supposed to be according to the Old Testament.
The sad thing is that scholars have a chance to study the Biblical peoples and their culture in the lands of their origins in the same places they have always been but since most of these people don't look like something out of a Benu Hur or an MGM classic they will be ignored. Also of course modern Zionists have their own history of Israel they need to promote and keep alive.
It is the heritage of these people which is at the root of modern Western and Middle East religions and thus must be preserved.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: To argue that ancient Hebrews are really early Arabian tribes men is a revolutionary suggestion. You may be on to something, but wouldn't this call into question the stories as we know it from founding fathers etc? Or is it a case where we just swap their origins and leave the main themes in tact?
Anguish - I discussed the controversy put forward by Kamal Salibi in many of my postings especially related to those of the Hyksos. The proof is in the pudding. The majority of names including the Ur of the Banu Khalid and Hashid (Khasdim) in Yemen War Maksud and Hauran and most of the gates and towns of Israel and Canaan have long ago been pinpointed in southern Saudi Arabia nd Yemen. Again please see "The Bible Came from Arabia for more information.
They show that the Israel or El Yishar were indeed historical places in their proper locations as noted in the Old Testament. The same has not been found in modern Palestinian Israel. It is clear that modern Israel is where the "daughter of Zion" was founded and not the original Zion. Several prominent Israeli scholars are also now admitting that there is little evidence for the Old Testament Israel in Palestine and for an Exodus from Egypt.
The Western historical distortions related to how modern Syria and Mesopotamia and in fact Nubia and Egypt came to be associated wrongly identified with the Old Testament Israel or Yishar in the Saraat or Al Sarah region of Asir and the lowland of the Canaani south of Mecca, Ur and Hauran whom the Greeks named Khaldi(Banu Khalid) and possibly Banu Kaleb (Chalybe) and the Arabian tribes of Kush and Misra are explained by Salibi. Salibi was one of the last people to propose this theory by the way.
Also modern scholars are finding other proofs that Israel was in the south Arabian area and that many of the Biblical stories were about Arabians. See Queen of Sheba a book by Bernard Leeman. It is found on-line.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Yes, I can certainly accept that there is little evidence for the wonderful stories in the Bible especially the Exodus from Egypt. And that the origins for these stories might be in Arabia. I dont see how this effects my original position that its all a construct. The place of *origin* for these fables might be in doubt, but there is little doubt they are fables. There is no evidence Abraham father of Israel ever lived, whether in Arabia or Mesopotamia. The "Israelite" identity was simply constructed around this myth.
I am taking note of AlT's silence in all of this startling revelations about his faith. Does this mean he has to abandon his white Zionist Marxist homeland in Palestine and move in with *Muslims* in Yemen?! Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: To argue that ancient Hebrews are really early Arabian tribes men is a revolutionary suggestion. You may be on to something, but wouldn't this call into question the stories as we know it from founding fathers etc? Or is it a case where we just swap their origins and leave the main themes in tact?
Anguish - I discussed the controversy put forward by Kamal Salibi in many of my postings especially related to those of the Hyksos. The proof is in the pudding. The majority of names including the Ur of the Banu Khalid and Hashid (Khasdim) in Yemen War Maksud and Hauran and most of the gates and towns of Israel and Canaan have long ago been pinpointed in southern Saudi Arabia nd Yemen. Again please see "The Bible Came from Arabia for more information.
They show that the Israel or El Yishar were indeed historical places in their proper locations as noted in the Old Testament. The same has not been found in modern Palestinian Israel. It is clear that modern Israel is where the "daughter of Zion" was founded and not the original Zion. Several prominent Israeli scholars are also now admitting that there is little evidence for the Old Testament Israel in Palestine and for an Exodus from Egypt.
The Western historical distortions related to how modern Syria and Mesopotamia and in fact Nubia and Egypt came to be associated wrongly identified with the Old Testament Israel or Yishar in the Saraat or Al Sarah region of Asir and the lowland of the Canaani south of Mecca, Ur and Hauran whom the Greeks named Khaldi(Banu Khalid) and possibly Banu Kaleb (Chalybe) and the Arabian tribes of Kush and Misra are explained by Salibi. Salibi was one of the last people to propose this theory by the way.
Also modern scholars are finding other proofs that Israel was in the south Arabian area and that many of the Biblical stories were about Arabians. See Queen of Sheba a book by Bernard Leeman. It is found on-line.
Some new and intersting theory Zarahan.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Yes, I can certainly accept that there is little evidence for the wonderful stories in the Bible especially the Exodus from Egypt. And that the origins for these stories might be in Arabia. I dont see how this effects my original position that its all a construct. The place of *origin* for these fables might be in doubt, but there is little doubt they are fables. There is no evidence Abraham father of Israel ever lived, whether in Arabia or Mesopotamia. The "Israelite" identity was simply constructed around this myth.
I am taking note of AlT's silence in all of this startling revelations about his faith. Does this mean he has to abandon his white Zionist Marxist homeland in Palestine and move in with *Muslims* in Yemen?!
Just because there is no evidence doesn't mean it was recently or totally constructed. That is just another construction in itself. Most myths are based on some reality.
It is possible that the history was passed down as oral tradition by a certain Arabian people about one of their ancestors in the Hejaz certainly the places are there Misfalah for example and Beth-el (Bayt allah) Abraham was said to have visited. Then again as I said there are some who believe certain of the early prophets are mentioned in Hyksos inscriptions or scarabs or in names such as Jacob-El, Sheshi (probably the Sheshai of the book of Joshua 15:13-15). and Nakhi (Anak?) Hyksos chiefs who were possibly the Anak, Sheshai with Ahiman of Canaan (the Asir/Tihama of Salibi) mentioned in the Biblical book of Genesis. See David Rohl A Test of Time.
Only problem is Rohl probably doesn't connect the Canaan mentioned in the time of Caleb, Bible with the Tihama.
The tribes of Kalb and Thawr (Shur) from the ancestors Kaleb and Shur. The cave of Machfelah is most likely Misfalah near Jebel Thaur in Arabia (the lower part of Mecca to the south of Misfalah) and is supposed to be the second holiest and most ancient site of the Jews. Of course Abraham is supposed to have bought this cave in written tradition.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I decided to come by and see what the people on Egyptsearch were up to.
And I notice you are very sloppy with your information.
I mean, quoting a statement from 1952 that the Hyksos introduced Seth worship to the Egyptian pantheon?
The Seth animal is represented in King Scorpians mace.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Also modern scholars are finding other proofs that Israel was in the south Arabian area and that many of the Biblical stories were about Arabians. See Queen of Sheba a book by Bernard Leeman. It is found on-line.
Interesting you make that claim, and try to support it with a book about Queen Makeda.
Didn't Jesus tell his audience that Makeda came from uttermost southernly regions to visit king Solomon? How was she supposed to do that if Israel was already in southern Arabia, and on the same geographical height as Abessinia, which is where she is supposed to have come from?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Most myths are based on some reality
Most myths are constructed on some reality, yes. So your story is as good as mine, or the mainstream's.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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I decided to come by and see what the people on Egyptsearch were up to.
And I notice you are very sloppy with your information.
I mean, quoting a statement from 1952 that the Hyksos introduced Seth worship to the Egyptian pantheon?
The Seth animal is represented in King Scorpians mace.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Also modern scholars are finding other proofs that Israel was in the south Arabian area and that many of the Biblical stories were about Arabians. See Queen of Sheba a book by Bernard Leeman. It is found on-line.
Interesting you make that claim, and try to support it with a book about Queen Makeda.
Didn't Jesus tell his audience that Makeda came from uttermost southernly regions to visit king Solomon? How was she supposed to do that if Israel was already in southern Arabia, and on the same geographical height as Abessinia, which is where she is supposed to have come from?
Unfortunately I couldn't find where Jesus said Makeda came from "uttermost southerly regions. Would you like to point that out.
As for your statement that it was sloppy I think what was sloppy is my mention of Seth as a foreign god without mentioning he also had a cult in Egypt. He was apparently called Lord of Foreigners as well. In Egypt especially during the new kingdom Baal was identified as Seth. His accompanying older cult in Egypt was also different from that found with the Canaanite Hyksos who also worshipped him in Syria as Baal or Baal-Hadad and Teshub. You can check out later texts from 1977 as the text: Seth, God of Confusion: a study of his role in Egyptian mythology and religion by the Veldes and in The Archeology of Ancient Israel by Amnon ben Tor.
So I would say maybe my commentary was sloppy but - research - hardly ever.
I definitely believe the Queen of Sheba came from Ethiopia i.e. Saba in Arabia like the Abyssinians and Yemenites believed. her real name is of course not Sheba or Makeda the latter meaning Queen or mother in African dialects.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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To finish my commentary in regards to the Hebrews. This is taken from my response to another poster on another forum, but applies to this discussion as well:
quote: We also have to remember that Apiru is a generic term. Here linguistics provides some insight as to how to properly interpret the word “Hebrew.” The first thing you have to know is common sound shifts. For our purpose, here is what you need to memorize:
b > p > f, and r > l
When trying to figure out a possible etymology for a word, always read the source material for context, and compare to other related languages. This way you don’t fall into the trap of folk etymology.
In the Bible, EBER is the name of the ancestor of the ben-ey ‘Eber’ “sons of Eber.” These are the ‘iber-iym, “the Hebrews” (Gen. 10:21, 24; 11”14-17). This name for Eber is comparable to the wandering Fulani of west Africa known as ABORE in Nigeria, and BORORO in Chad; FULA in Senegal/Gambia; PEUL in Guinea; PULO in Senegal/Gambia (Ful-be plural).
The b-r/p-l/p-r/f-l root can be found in many African languages and proves that Hebrew is not an ethnic designation, but a title given to a people, by other people. Observe:
Abar (Hebrew): cross over, trespass, pass on, pass by abo’r suwfah: wind whistling by boro (Twi): to trespass boro-fo: passer-by, alien, European puro (Bachama): to exceed afara (Yoruba): bridge ibara: ford ibara-(mu): across (the nose) eburu: shor cut (across an area) afere: breeze
The Hebrews got their name because, them being nomads, they were always seen “passing by” the cities of Canaan, for example, in mass: never settling. The -b-r root means “pass on, pass by” in Judges 19:12b, 18a and in Ruth 4:1.
“We shall not turn aside into a city of strangers who are not part of ben-ey yisera’el. No. We will ‘aBar until Gibe’ah [Judg. 19:12]
For 4 millennium the -b-r have been in and out of Africa as far as the Western savannah (= Hebrew sefelah). Your Fula-ni (-ni is a suffix denoting ethnic group/people) are descendants of the ben-ey ‘Eber. The Pula are the relics of the Apiru. We have to remember that the Fulani phenotype is atypical of West Africa, and why researchers ultimately give an east African origin for them. The “Hebrews” were everywhere in ancient times. Dr. GJK Campbell-Dunn (a linguist) has even discussed the Fulani in Minoa in ancient times in his book Who Were The Minoans: An African Answer.
The Fulani, in regards to their association with the Moors and their role in the slave trade, exhibit the same behavior as discussed among the baKame (Egyptians) of the Apiru, and the sons of Eber’s own testimony in the Old Testament. They were invaders and raiders and never had a “homeland.”
The Israelites are the branch of the Apiru/Fula that settled in Canaan. In Fulfulde “sire” is cognate with Yoruba “sile,” Hebrew “saluwy” (settled). Once they “saluw’y” in Canaan did they become Israelites. The very language is Canaanite. Isaiah the Israelite prophet refers to the Hebrew as sefat kena’an “the speech of Canaan” (Isa. 19:18), because the iber-iym adopted sefat kena’an when they invaded Canaan. When these same iber’iym went into West Africa, they adopted the West Atlantic languages and why the Fula-ni languages are considered Niger-Congo, not Afro-Asiatic. If you want to start understanding the Hebrews, look into the Fulani first. There is your African connection.
This may lend some evidence that the Afri (Aourigha) people (from which the name Africa came) may have been given this name because they were semi-nomadic. The word could possibly mean "a passer by." I am still doing some investigation.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: To finish my commentary in regards to the Hebrews. This is taken from my response to another poster on another forum, but applies to this discussion as well: ...
The Fulani, in regards to their association with the Moors and their role in the slave trade, exhibit the same behavior as discussed among the baKame (Egyptians) of the Apiru, and the sons of Eber’s own testimony in the Old Testament. They were invaders and raiders and never had a “homeland.”
... The Fulani, in regards to their association with the Moors and their role in the slave trade, exhibit the same behavior as discussed among the baKame (Egyptians) of the Apiru, and the sons of Eber’s own testimony in the Old Testament. They were invaders and raiders and never had a “homeland.” ....
The Israelites are the branch of the Apiru/Fula that settled in Canaan. In Fulfulde “sire” is cognate with Yoruba “sile,” Hebrew “saluwy” (settled). Once they “saluw’y” in Canaan did they become Israelites. The very language is
I don't always look thoroughly at the bulk of your comments because I never like to base things largely on linguistics. However, this time i did and would like to note a few things.
I agree with you that the Woodabe Fulani may in fact be the people who were called Asher in Arabia. They seem to be the Barzu Fulitani of ancient Algeria (Mauritania Caesarea) and are possibly the Birzeit Ya-Phlet of the tribe of Asher and Phelet or Pelethi which I believe settled along the coast of the Hijaz Tihama down in Yemen. This name Barz is probably linked to the later Felata or Fulani name Bani Warith or Waritan. I don't know how or if it links to the modern name Bororo or Abore, but it would be significant if it did.
I base my beliefs about links to the Levant and Jews partly on the early paintings Fulani looks of the Libyans (Tjehenu - according to the librarian there ) from an Old Kingdom painting while at the University of Chicago, which I have yet to see posted on this forum, and also on the knowledge that early "Libyans" of the Fayum were said to be trading thru Memphis with the Sinaitic region and Levant during the Old Kingdom. Also of course there are African traditions about Fulani being "Jews".
There was also some connection suggested by Richmond Palmer that was a group called "Hudin" among the Fulani who were somehow related to the Hadan'dowa people or their name. He also said the Fulitani had some kind of Levantine connection which i haven't looked into.
Most ancient Afro-Asiatic tribes and especially Arabian ones were named from deities whose names corresponded to stars and/or planets.
If anything the name Bar and possibly Berzeit is more related to the "Heber" or "Eber" then is the ancient word Apiru. However the Fulani were not the only wandering people in Africa. And it was the Aramaeans that wandered to be specific.
Kamal Salibi considers that Apiru was the Assyrian and Egyptian name cognate to the name of the ancient and modern people or village of Afariyya, Ghafir or Ghafar in the Hijaz and Yemen and not a reference to the other word meaning "to cross over". One has to remember Heber or Abir is considered the Arabian ancestor of all of Qahtan or Joktan and not just the ancestor of modern European Jews or ancient Judaeans. Hubir and Yubir are scorned "Jewish" peoples even today in the Horn and in Somalia. i think they are also smiths.
It is my belief that the name Apiru may have referred to the ancient and modern Afar or Afariyya people of the Red Sea and the Yemen to whom were related the Banu Ifren or Ifuraces (Ifrikesh) Tuareg of Islamic and Roman times. Such mentions of the Midianites as groups whose cattle and donkeys were "without number" still applies to some of these people - the Afar especially who were said to have crossed over into Africa by Josephus. The tribal name Afar or Ifuras is probably not related to that of the Kel Aurigha or Uraghen Tuareg. This suggestion was what was postulated by certain historians unfamiliar with the names of the dozens of ancient Tuareg (Afar) tribes in North Africa, but is not conclusive. Those two clans of Tuareg were however closely related.
It is still a far stretch to say the east African Fulani were "the Jews". I would be more inclined to think they were ancestral to many peoples who settled in the Tihama-Asir region by the third millenium ancestral to early Pheleti or Falasah in Yemen and the people of Ghayt (Ghat), Qararah (Gerar) and As-Shedad (Ashdod), and other Philistine or Canaanite towns still located in their Biblical context in Yemen. These are the names of not only places in the Yemen and Asir today but of peoples. Although the region was settled along time ago by Iranian and other originally non-Arab peoplesnames of many of the ancient tribes and villages mentioned in the Genesis book of the Bible are still there including the some of the so called lost tribes of Israel.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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This is why the study of linguistics is so important. Anyone who knows anything about it knows that it is the next best thing to Archeology. Languages, ideas and concepts follow people. And if you are tracking the migrations of people, even without much, if any, physical evidence, you should always be able to trace the interactions between groups based on languages.
It is because of this science that I stand behind that ultimately Fula, Iber'iym, Afar, Afri, etc all derive from the b-r root which means "nomad." This is not only attested by comparative linguistics, but by the very social nature of all the groups described. ALL are or were nomadic.
You agree that Bar and possibly Berzeit is more related to the "Heber" or "Eber," but you don't think it does to Apiru. Again, the linguistics would disagree with you based on how the Luntu mu Bukame (people of Egypt) viewed the Asiatics in general, and the Israelites in particular.
The Stela of Merneptah states:
"The princes are prostrate saying: 'Shorome!" Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head: Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, baren of seed, Khor is become a widow of Kmt. All who roam have been subdued by the King of Upper and Lower Kmt: Ba n Ra Mer Amun Sa-Ra: MernePtah content with Maat Given life like Ra every day."
Ysriar "Israel" fk.t "wasted, vanquished" bn "negation" pr.t "grain, seed" f "his" *refer to picture 3 for the Mdw Ntr-glyphs for Ysriar "Israel
The eighth line of this exerpt says; Ysriar fk.t bn pr.t f "Israel (is) wasted none seed his" or "Israel is wasted, his seed is no more"
The determinates for Ysrair are a Throw Stick and Man/Woman-with-the triple stokes (plurality) underneath. The Throw Stick denotes foreigners, or something foreign and the Man/Woman denotes people. The fact that there is no glyph for land or country present in the word, this demonstrates that these are a nomadic people without a state.
All of the renderings of Apiru have the "walking or shepherds" stick which indicate that they do not have a state, that they are simply foreigners. The Egyptians viewed the Apiru as NOMADS, "passers by," who did not have a country, city or state to call their own: otherwise we would see the Niwt sign or the foreign land sign as a determinative.
We have in the language, using the same symbols to write Aprw, the word Apw/Apr which means "passing,striding (walk, step, strut, etc.)."
The Iber'iym (Hebrew) records their ancestor as Eber. Usually deities are ancestors. This story may be true, but given the nature of the old testament, I believe this story is to provide a context to introduce origins from a CONCEPT, not a person.
It is just like Adam being the first human on earth and all deriving from him in the Bible. If you understand linguistics, and how to use it, you can easily demonstrate this story as false.
Yoruba: Adamu Orisha (ancestors dead and gone) Shona: mu-dzimu "ancestral spirits", mi-dzimu "ancestral spirits." Ndebele: ama-zimu "human like creatures believed to be inhabiting thick forests" (in other words ancestors). Ibibio: n-dem "clan deities", i-dem, "masquerade" (used in ancestral festivals). Sestwana: Mo-dimo "God"
Here we see the d-m root means "ancestor or God." Here Adam means "God as a primary ancestor." This is typical across Africa (Muntu, Maa Ngala, Itongo, etc.). This is why Jesus is called Ben Adam "son of Adam" which is another epithet for his other characteristic as "son of God."
The story fits just like it would across Africa with there being a primary ancestor from the root of the Creator for which all men derived. There are countless examples of this and the Iber'iym story is no different.
This is the same with EBER which attempts to explain their nomadic nature. It is being EBER that defines the Israelites: always moving, not having a home land. It is the theme of the whole Bible.
Again, I believe that a remnant of the Fula-ni became the Israelites. The B-r root is a general term for nomadic peoples and why it is applied to so many ethnic groups. You won't recognize the root if you don't know linguistics which inform you of the sound shifts.
The unifying trait of ALL of these groups is they are or were defined as nomads (or semi-nomadic). The stories or myths tell you all you need to know. The myths encompass a story that informs the reader how the main character in the story got its name. The story is to point you to the meaning behind the name of the characters to get a particular understanding of life.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Unfortunately I couldn't find where Jesus said Makeda came from "uttermost southerly regions. Would you like to point that out.
Matthew 12:42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: As for your statement that it was sloppy I think what was sloppy is my mention of Seth as a foreign god without mentioning he also had a cult in Egypt. He was apparently called Lord of Foreigners as well.
The reason why I also said that your research was sloppy is because anyone who knows his/her bible knows that
1.Jokshan is not a branch of the Midianites. Neither is Jokshan mentioned in Habakkuk 3:7, as you've stated above. 2.''Misraim'' could never refer to anything other than Egypt. I'm not even that religious anymore, and even I remember certain passages, like the one above reffering to Makeda, that unmistakably place the home of the Hebrews in the Levant, and ''Misrayim'' in Africa.
For example, you said:
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: It is also why they haven't been able to find many of the early events of the Old Testament like the Exodus from Egypt. Egypt was an inaccurate translation of Misrah the tribe of Arabians still known as Masruh today.
My questions to you are: Does this tribe called Masruh have a cities called pi rammesse and Gosen? Because the inhabitants of Misraim where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly did (Exodus 1:11) (Genesis 46:28-34) and both cities correspond with known ancient Egyptian locations.
Why is the Tel Dan Inscription, which contains Aramaean references to a victory over ''king David'' found in northern Israel, and why are there several other ancient hebrew inscriptions found in the Levant?
How can a southern Arabian cross the red sea and end up in Israel like moses did?
Do they (Masruh) call their kings Pharao’s? Because the kings of the land where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly did (Exodus 1:11). As a matter of fact, the word ''pharao'' descends from the Egyptian saying ''great house''. This means that it has ''Egyptian specific'' linguistic connotation unlike the general word ''king'' which has equivalents everywhere. The fact that the Hebrews used the word ''Pharao'' several times, tells us that the location they referred to was Egypt, just like the word ''vatican'' instead of the ambiguous word: ''religious establisment'' signifies Italy.
Was the tribe you speak of ruled by Pharaos called Sheshonk and Tirhakah? Because the people of Misraim where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly were. (I Kings 14:25), Isaiah 37:9. Both kings are associated with Egyptian dynasties.
There was no king called Herod the Great in southern Arabia
There was no Pointius Pilates in southern Arabia
There were no Roman incursions in southern Arabia, to make sense of Jesus's warnings. (Luke 21:20)
There was no Assyrian deportation of (southern) Arabian people.
The Assyrian empire never conquered southern Arabia. It did went into went into Israeli territory several times and this is recorded in the bible (2 Kings 19:9) and by other ancient sources. This event had to be a assyrian-levantine affair, as the cities mentioned by Sennacherib are all in Levantine and surrounding territory. The contemporary king that suffered these incursions is mentioned by both sides. Nowhere does southern Arabia come into play.
Numerous sites like Megiddo, Lachish etc that were famous in antiquity and mentioned in the bible are located in the levant. ''Lachish'' is also mentioned in the Amarna letterns and Megiddo is where Ramses II fought the Hittites. This site is mentioned numerous times in the bible as located in Hebrew territory.
I mean.. how exactly does this work? You would have to re-write history to make your theory fit.
Does this tribe you speak of embalm their dead? Because according to the bible, Jacob was embalmed. (Genesis 50:2)
Also, something of interest, stemming from my own research into the bible a while back. I noticed that the sons of Noah (Genesis 10:1-30)... When you identify them all on a map by dotting their locations, the dots form a circle around Israel. Which makes sense, because they could only know tribes of a certain radius around them. The center of the radius is in Israel, not in Southern Arabia.
I could go on and on...
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Unfortunately I couldn't find where Jesus said Makeda came from "uttermost southerly regions. Would you like to point that out.
Matthew 12:42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here
The point of the articles I am in the process of posting is to show how Salibi's thesis about the anachronisms in the late Christian Biblical topynomy and geographic history. The fact that later Christians (A.D.) may have interpreted Old Testament names of the southwest Arabian peninsula was the whole point of Salibi's book THe Bible Came from Arabia. There is no question Biblical Saba was seen as a country to the far south of Israel and Herod of course lived in Israel at the time of the man, Jesus. That has nothing to do with what I am writing and it certainly doesn't mean that the Queen of Saba mentioned in the Bible was modern Ethiopia or Sudan. To this day Semitic people consider the Queen of Sheba to have been a Yemenite ruler. Apparently the Abyssinians did as well.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Unfortunately I couldn't find where Jesus said Makeda came from "uttermost southerly regions. Would you like to point that out.
Matthew 12:42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here
First off its not my research Kalonji, and it is far from being sloppy. David Greenberg and many Biblical specialists have noted that the term Kushi, or Kushan is the name for the Midianites in the Bible. It is used there in Chronicles. It is the later Septuagint which renders the word Kushan Ethiopian. Furthermore I am exceedingly religion oriented person Kalonji who doesn't know much about the Bible but the little I do know says in 1 Chronicles 1:32 - "The sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine, whom she bore, were Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. Jokshan is brother of Midian." THerefore, to say that Midian is a branch of Jokshan or vice versa is hardly a stretch - is it Kalonji. They branched out of Keturah just as Dedan and Seba branched from Midian. Did I miss something here? I have already talked about the fact that scholars such as Goldenberg believe the (Yo)Kushan and the Midianites to have been names used synonymously. Thus Goldenberg puts it this way, 'the name Kushan is a lenghthened form of Kush "the identity of the Arabian Kush with Midian is the key to understandign the pasagge in Numbers that speaks of Moses Kushite wife. ...When the Bible says therefore that that Moses had a Kushite wife it is referring to the same Midianite wife Zipporah, but is using the ancient name of her people. The Kushite of Num. 12 11 is just another name for the Midianite." So yes not only is Midian a branch of Jokshan but they are ONE AND THE SAME PEOPLE.
The names is Kushan, Kushi, Kishon, Gassan are names for the same people Kalonji the people called Jokshan in the Bible or Midianites.
Furthermore where in the Bible does it say Misrayim is in Africa as you have stated. The word Egypt is the later translation of Misraim which that latter goup of the name as both a villages and tribal still exists in Arabia under as I have said the term Musrah or Masruh, Misramah and Masirah. The name Misraim only becomes applicable to Egypt due to the Hyksos presence there and does not occur before that period.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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For centuries our people have been in search of an identity, after having our true identity taken away. Our search has lead us down many different paths, some paths we've taken have lead us closer to the true path. There is only one path of truth, everything else is a road that leads to the true path or take us farther away from it.
Those of you in the black nationalist and Afro centric movement have been lead away from the true path. You have allowed the devil, through his minions, to deceive you big time. What is a black nationalist and Afro centric, those words and movements are creations of our enemies. He has thrown these falsehoods at you to keep you away from the truth of who we really are. Let me explain what he has done to you.
By calling yourself a nationalist means you should have your own land, laws, government, & language, that is owned and controlled by you, you should be independent. My question to you is, where is your land, laws, government and what language do you speak? You are still a slave in the house of your slave master.
Many of you don't know you have a land, Heritage, laws and language. The enemy has closed your eyes so tight that no light can get through. The same can be said for you brothers in the Afro centric movement. Both of you (nationalist, and Afro centric) have been lied to, the enemy has told you that all people of the earth who have black skin are one and the same group. He has taught you that you are a people he calls African.
Africa is not a nationality it's the name of a continent, this continent is named after a white man / Gentile (Leo Africanus)
There has never been A ONE UNIFIED GROUP WHO IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES BY THE TERM BLACK that's a European Racist creation, So is the Myth of an "AFRICAN PEOPLE".
The ancient Hebrews, Egyptians, Ethiopians, or Libyans never spoke of a place called Africa even though those people were indigenous to that continent. The word Africa is foreign to many of the indigenous people living there today, that's because the name Africa is From the Latin language. Latin was the language of the Romans, Leo Africanus was Roman, they called that land mass Africa, in honor of their military general who defeated Hannibal in the Punic wars. Look it up do the research.
The joining of all black skin people into one group was done by European Racist. Allow me to explain how and why this happen. When the modern Gentile entered Egypt in the 18th century under Napoleon. They marveled at all the greatness of the Egyptians, they saw the pictures and statues the Egyptians made of themselves. They saw the black skin, thick lips, and woolly hair of the Pharoah's. These Gentiles were Christians so they knew about the Hebrews being in Egypt, they knew the story of Moses passing as Pharaoh's Grandson etc.
In Order to deny the truth, they created a lie. They took one indigenous tribe in Africa who still had traditional or what they call primitive culture and said this is how ALL black skin people are. They all wear plates in the lips, swing from trees, don't have a written language etc etc yada yada blah blah.
By doing this they said the ancient Egyptians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, couldn't have been black, because they could write and build great things, so they lumped all black skin people together and called us African, black, and Negroes. They called the Egyptians, Ethiopians and Hebrews, white. Even though as scripture tells us the Egyptians & Ethiopians were brothers both descendants of Ham. The name Ethiopia means burnt or black face.
Today you have so called black scholars using the same terminology the gentiles racist created in order to deceive us.
You have been fooled into thinking you have made progress because you refer to yourself as African or black, instead of Negro, or nigger. You have not made any progress, calling yourself black and African is the same as calling yourself Negro and Nigger. They are all bywords and proverbs they still don't explain who you are. The enemy knows your true identity, and he knows he can't let this information get out to the mainstream.
The people on the continent of Africa don't buy into the Gentile racist doctrine of all being one nation because we all have similar skin color. They see themselves as different nations and always have.
By putting us into one group the enemy is now able to make such statements as "AFRICANS SOLD OTHER AFRICANS INTO SLAVERY". no such thing, Black skin Hebrews were sold by other nations who just happen to have black skin, we were also sold by nations of people with white skin, Yellow skin, brown skin, red skin and so on.
The enemy has also fooled you into believing the scriptures (bible) is not your book but his. You repeat his foolish doctrine by saying "THE BIBLE IS THE WHITE MAN'S BOOK". Don't you understand that's what he wants you to think. He wants you to believe that you or your people have no hand in that great manuscript, that the Almighty who created the Heavens and the earth has nothing to do with you. He wants you to believe that he is the chosen one, and sadly you are believing him. All of this is in the greater plans of the adversary Satan.
That great book known as the bible is your true history book, it is not the book of the Jews or Christians, it contains your entire history, past, present and future. My brothers and sisters you must come out of that foolish Afro centric and black nationalist none sense, come back to your true nation. Satan has a hold on your mind, he works through his minions to deceive you.
Ask yourself this, IF YOU WERE REALLY A PEOPLE CALLED AFRICAN OR BLACK, WHY DIDN'T THE SLAVE MASTER TRY TO WIPE THIS AWAY FROM YOUR MIND SET. In the infamous Willy Lynch Letter, how to make a better slave, Willy says this:
OUR EXPERTS WARNED US ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF THIS PHENOMENON OCCURRING, FOR THEY SAY THAT THE MIND HAS A STRONG DRIVE TO CORRECT AND RECORRECT ITSELF OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, IF IT CAN TOUCH SOME SUBSTANTIAL ORIGINAL HISTORICAL BASE: AND THEY ADVISED US THAT THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS PHENOMENON IS TO SHAVE OFF THE BRUTE'S MENTAL HISTORY AND CREATE A MULTIPLICITY OF PHENOMENA OF ILLUSIONS, SO THAT EACH ILLUSION WILL TWIRL IN ITS OWN ORBIT, SOMETHING SIMILAR TO FLOATING BALLS IN A VACUUM.
Willy Lynch was advising the slave masters to take away the knowledge that we are Israelites. This is the culture that was wiped from our minds and replaced with phenomena of illusions like we are BLACK, AFRICAN, AFRO AMERICANS ETC. Our slave masters told us we were black and African, he called us by these names, because he created them to be used on us. If we are "African" why didn't he wipe that away from our minds? Once you have understanding and see through the lies, he has thrown at you, then you can see why the scriptures (bible) is the most beautiful thing in this world. I know you are looking for a place to fit in, you are in search of an identity.
The bible has your identity, the bible is your identity, instead of making one up or have somebody create one for you, just come back to the one that was given to you by the creator of the heavens and earth. No man can take that away from you. I know many of you don't believe in Yah or Yahshuah (for those that may be unaware Yah is the name of the creator in Hebrew, Yahshuah is the Hebrew name of his son). That is your fault, some only acknowledge them because you understand that the messiah was black skinned, so you include this in your Afro centric doctrine. It's not about Skin color
Dealing with mankind on the basics of skin color is the doctrine of the devil. Yah the most high deals with man on the basics of nations.
When he destroyed Egypt he didn't do it because they had black skin, he did it because they were a WICKED NATION. When he sent Israel into the hands of the Enemies, he didn't do it because we are a nation of black skin people, he did it because we as a nation didn't keep our end of the covenant we made with him.
When you call yourself black what does that mean? What is a black? Black does not constitute a nationality or culture. It is something that was created to keep you ignorant of your true Identity. Every man on earth is describe by his nation (Nationality), Chinese are people from China, Irish are people from Ireland, Polish are people from Poland, Mexicans are People from Mexico, Blacks are people from where? As I have already stated on this site, Black is a word that should be used to describe a noun. A black car, black skin, black hair, black book etc. When you use black nationalist what does that describe?
Brothers and Sisters you are only confusing yourself and those around you. I've read some of the books by Afro centric authors, Many of them are just as confusing. Let me show you an Example from the Chancellor Williams book "THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION" on page 135 he says this:
The religious belief in sacrifice for the remission of sins was an African belief and practice for at least 2000 years before Abraham. The results of a comparative study of the African, Jewish, and Christian religions have amazed many who have undertaken the task. Practically all Ten of the Commandments were embedded in the African Constitution ages before Moses went up Mt. Sinai in Africa in 1491 BC, a rather late date in African history.
Allow me to point out the confusion in this statement, Mr. Williams says the belief in Sacrifice for the remission of Sins was an African Belief 2000 years before Abraham. What does he mean an African belief? There is no such thing, as I stated Africa is not a unified Group, Race, Nation or Nationality. What the Ashanti Tribe on the West Coast of Africa believe is not the same thing the Zulu's believe in South Africa, the same thing the people in Libya believe is not the same thing the People in the Sudan believe.
Africa never has been one unified group with the same belief's and thoughts, they differ from group to group just like the rest of mankind do. Not all people on the Asian continent believe the same, not all people in Europe believe the same, so why do you expect the people on the continent of Africa to be the same? IT'S THAT WAY FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DECEPTION.
What Mr. William has written concerning a African Belief is false, there never has been such a thing as an African Belief. Next he says the 10 commandments were embedded in the African Constitution ages before Moses got them from Yah on MT. Sinai.
Have any of you ever read this African constitution that has the 10 commandments embedded in it? HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER SEEN IT? NO, nobody has ever seen or read such a thing, because it doesn't exist. Speaking of constitutions which one is the model for the African continent, is it Ghana? Ethiopia? Liberia? Egypt? South Africa? Zimbabwe? You get the point, there is no united Africa. Africa is home to many nations of different people.
To further confuse you, Chancellor says the Original Hebrews and Arabs were white people.
The people we call "Jews" indiscriminately are Hebrews by race and Jews by religion. Anyone can be a Jew, but not a Hebrew. The Hebrews and the Arabs are both white Semitic peoples, and no numbers of offspring by non-Hebrews and non-Arabs, or adherents to either religion will change this absolute fact. After all those centuries of racial mixing, there was nothing unusual about the appearance of great coloured leaders in Palestine or anywhere else in Asia, including, from time to time, their rise to kingship in Israel, Syria (Aram), Mesopotamia etc.
But the white Jews (Hebrews) and white Arabs remain exactly what they were-white@.
This is the same racist doctrine that the gentiles (whites) created in order to deceive us. One of your Afro centric scholars is teaching you the same thing, and you take it as Gospel. Who taught Chancellor this lie, if you have read the material from this site
(http://www.hebrewisraelites.org) you can see from history and scripture that the Hebrews were a black people / Nation.
In his book he identifies Egypt as a black nation, which is true, and we know throughout the scriptures the Hebrews are said to look like the Egyptians in Physical appearance.
The scriptures tells us that:
Moses passed as Pharaoh grandson for 40 years (Acts 7:23),
Moses was called an Egyptian (Exodus 2:16-19)
The apostle Paul was mistaken for a black skin Egyptian (Acts 21:37-38),
Joseph was not recognized by his brothers in Egypt they thought Joseph was an Egyptian (Genesis 42:1-8)
Yahoshua was hidden in Egypt from the wrath of King Herod (Mat 2:13)
Also whenever Yah struck them with Leprosy their skin turned White, which means it was other than white to began with, it was the opposite of white.
How can Mr. Chancellor Williams Identify Egypt as a black nation but say the Hebrews were white, when the Hebrews passed for Egyptians, that is utter confusion. He is repeating the wicked Gentile racist doctrine, and sadly you have taken hold of it hook, line and sinker.
The truth about your black and African Movement is this, you have embraced White Supremacy, and put a black face on it. This is why other black skinned people from around the world don't want to united with you. You have nothing to offer them, your people are in the richest nation on earth but are at the very bottom of society. How do you explain that, what is your answer for someone who ask you, "How did your people get in this situation?" How was it possible for a handful of slave traders to come, capture and disperse millions of people throughout the world?
How can you teach or Liberate anybody if you can't do the same for yourself, or your people? The only thing you would take to the other black nations is white supremacy, that's what your movement is, you are spreading the doctrine of racist, you are doing the bidding of your slave masters. I know it sounds harsh but the truth must be told, this is not written in any way to offend you, but if it does, all I can say is, SO BE IT. THE TRUTH HURTS. Our people are in a very critical crisis, we can no longer tolerate foolishness and deception. We as a people only have two choices. Continue to live by the lie and die or Chose the truth and live forever. The choice is always yours.
WHAT CHOICE WILL YOU MAKE?
THIS MESSAGE COMES TO YOU FROM A BROTHER WHO LOVES HIS PEOPLE AND HAVE NO PLEASURE IN SEEING THEM FALL BY THE WASTE SIDE. THIS IS A MESSAGE OF LOVE.
Posts: 220 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Mar 2010
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quote: an inaccurate translation of Misrah the tribe of Arabians still known as Masruh today.
My questions to you are: Does this tribe called Masruh have a cities called pi rammesse and Gosen? Because the inhabitants of Misraim where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly did (Exodus 1:11) (Genesis 46:28-34) and both cities correspond with known ancient Egyptian locations.
Why is the Tel Dan Inscription, which contains Aramaean references to a victory over ''king David'' found in northern Israel, and why are there several other ancient hebrew inscriptions found in the Levant?
How can a southern Arabian cross the red sea and end up in Israel like moses did?
Do they (Masruh) call their kings Pharao’s? Because the kings of the land where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly did (Exodus 1:11). As a matter of fact, the word ''pharao'' descends from the Egyptian saying ''great house''. This means that it has ''Egyptian specific'' linguistic connotation unlike the general word ''king'' which has equivalents everywhere. The fact that the Hebrews used the word ''Pharao'' several times, tells us that the location they referred to was Egypt, just like the word ''vatican'' instead of the ambiguous word: ''religious establisment'' signifies Italy.
Was the tribe you speak of ruled by Pharaos called Sheshonk and Tirhakah? Because the people of Misraim where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly were. (I Kings 14:25), Isaiah 37:9. Both kings are associated with Egyptian dynasties.
There was no king called Herod the Great in southern Arabia
There was no Pointius Pilates in southern Arabia
There were no Roman incursions in southern Arabia, to make sense of Jesus's warnings. (Luke 21:20)
There was no Assyrian deportation of (southern) Arabian people.
The Assyrian empire never conquered southern Arabia. It did went into went into Israeli territory several times and this is recorded in the bible (2 Kings 19:9) and by other ancient sources. This event had to be a assyrian-levantine affair, as the cities mentioned by Sennacherib are all in Levantine and surrounding territory. The contemporary king that suffered these incursions is mentioned by both sides. Nowhere does southern Arabia come into play.
Numerous sites like Megiddo, Lachish etc that were famous in antiquity and mentioned in the bible are located in the levant. ''Lachish'' is also mentioned in the Amarna letterns and Megiddo is where Ramses II fought the Hittites. This site is mentioned numerous times in the bible as located in Hebrew territory.
I mean.. how exactly does this work? You would have to re-write history to make your theory fit.
Does this tribe you speak of embalm their dead? Because according to the bible, Jacob was embalmed. (Genesis 50:2)
I could go on and on...
I am glad you brought up these place names because it gives a chance to again talk about what specialists on the North African and Arabian archeology and linguistics have been finding - that is that the names of the Old Testament including and especially Lachich, Goshen and Pi Ra'msses have been found pinpointed as being southern Arabian sites. Lachich or El Qayas which is associated in the Bible with "Gibeon" "Makkedah" "Eglon" in Joshua 10 is discussed on p. 120 in, The Bible Came from Arabia. The latter four are El Jiban, Magdi, Khirban and Ajlan. see. p. 129-130. Lachish has never been satisfactorily located in northern Israel for the simple fact that these places or towns are not found near the sites of the northern Lachish only with the southern one.
THe same book by Salibi discusses Goshen Qashanin, Pithom (Futaymah)and Ramsses or what was probably Ra "Mss" (ss have two dots on the bottom) located in inland Asir "IN THE REGION OF THE ARABIAN MSRYM"! See p. 202 The Bible Came FROM ARABIA by Kamal Salibi.
He goes down a list of 30 towns named in the Amarna records showing that they are places grouped in the fashion that they are listed in these ancient Egyptian records. They include Apiru whom he equates was related to the modern Al Afariyyeh on the Wadi Adam, Gazri or Biblical Gezer , Magiddu - Biblical Megiddo, Mesqu, Sutu- Al Sut in Jizan is Hazati mentioned also by Sargon II (named for the Khaza'a tribe of Azd), Urusalim encompassing the places of Arwa and As Salam near Tanumah the original or early Jerusalim all for the most part to the south of Mecca. see pp. 72-75. The Amarna records and place names are found in their rightful places "all making geographical sense".
And what do you know about Assyrian deportations in Arabia. Are you an archeological specialist. As far as Salibi is concerned the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar deported thousands in the Asir due to Egyptian control of the area. p. 15. And although the inhabitants of the ancient northern Lachish were found by early physical anthropologists to be of an Upper Egyptian physical or cranial type. It is just as likely that the smallish black men shown being captured by the Assyrians are from the south Arabian, Lachish.
That's how "it works" Kalonji. It's called being familiar with the geography of a certain region and its archeology and linguistics aside from the Biblical tradition.
It is in South Arabia where it works - not modern Syro-Palestine whose Israel wasn't founded in the times of which the Old Testament speaks!
That is where is found Gaza, Ashdod, Askelon, Gath and Ekron in maritime Asir p. 161. That is where the Sodom and Gommorrah are located and where the earliest Harran and Damascus was found before some "Kushi" and Canaanites later known as "Ethiopians" or "the Sudan" (in Syria) "spread abroad" bringing culture to Syria, Iraq Iran, the Aegean and Mediterraneans coasts over 3500 years ago - and before then. Even Bethlehem and the Nazareth of Jesus wasn't located in Israel until after the time of Christ being brought their by the black Nasirah and Banu Lakhem tribes of Arabia. And if you weren't so busy trying to criticize these as my beliefs rather than well-researched and increasingly apparent truths you could have looked at the Queen of Sheba book which is about the Ethiopians and their movement from Yemen and note that the Egyptians were in the area of the Yemen and had settled there, and such deities as Ra were in fact worshipped by the Hyksos . If Jacob was practicing mummification it would give credence to the view that the name of the Hyksos ruler Yaqub, was in fact Jacob of the Bible - and that he like other Hyksos rulers were in contact or influenced by Egypt prior to or during their stay in Sryia and North Africa.
Here are the descendants of Jacob and Joseph in Arabian tradition
"From Banu Sulaim ibn Mansur were descended Ra’l, Zakwan, ‘Asiyyah ibn Khuyfaf ibn Imri’ Al- Qais ibn Buhthah ibn Sulaim and Za’b ibn Malik ibn Khufaf ibn Imri’ Al- Qais ibn Buhthah ibn Sulaim …” from Mukhtasar Surat Al-Rasu?l ( Biography of the Prophet ) attributed to Abdul Wahab born 1703.
Below are the people named above as they are known in Arabian, Biblical and other tradition
Sulaim (Salem) bin Mansur of the harrah - the extremely black tribes of the Harrah as opposed to the dark brown their Sudanese descendants
Manasse'ir/ Mansur (Manasseh - son of Joseph son of Jacob
Rahil, Ra'la, Rakhala (Rachel) of the tribe of Djurham or as Tabari calls them Jurham bin Peleg (Hadoram) who lived near Mecca and in Yemen
Asaf (Josef) who in Arabian tradition was placed on the throne of Misr during the reign of Rayan the Amalekite
Assiyyah (Asenath of Egypt who married Zaphnath or Joseph) whom Tabari calls "the Israelite woman) the modern Ethiopians and Greeks called Cassiopeia "Queen of Ethiopia"
Khufaf or Apophis the Hyksos - Amalekite(Epaphus whom tradition makes brother of Cepheus "King of Ethiopia")
Buthah (Potipherah) priest of On deity of the Hittites in the Bible (Hatahid?)
There is a corpus of traditions in all lands that suggest the "Amalekites"', Canaanites, the "Ethiopians" of the Greeks, the Israelites and the people of Hejaz were one and the same who took over Syria and Egypt in probably the first half of the 2nd millenium B.C.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: [qb] [QUOTE] an inaccurate translation of Misrah the tribe of Arabians still known as Masruh today.
My questions to you are: Does this tribe called Masruh have a cities called pi rammesse and Gosen? Because the inhabitants of Misraim where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly did (Exodus 1:11) (Genesis 46:28-34) and both cities correspond with known ancient Egyptian locations.
Why is the Tel Dan Inscription, which contains Aramaean references to a victory over ''king David'' found in northern Israel, and why are there several other ancient hebrew inscriptions found in the Levant?
How can a southern Arabian cross the red sea and end up in Israel like moses did?
Do they (Masruh) call their kings Pharao’s? Because the kings of the land where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly did (Exodus 1:11). Was the tribe you speak of ruled by Pharaos called Sheshonk and Tirhakah? Because the people of Misraim where Jacob resided in the old testament certainly were. (I Kings 14:25), Isaiah 37:9. Both kings are associated with Egyptian dynasties.
...
Yes - Salibi talks about his theories of the root for the words Pharaon. About Sheshonk's travels through Arabia and about Tell Dan in his books. You can also read about the southern Arabian town of Kar Qamashah (Karchemish) there as well, as well as the 7 wells -Be'ersheba - mentioned there by Strabo and others in their travels in the region. To put it bluntly all the bases are covered. The best way to talk about these issues is by going to the blog at
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: So Abraham is suppose to be Chaldean or Southern Arabian? Was he "commanded" to go to Levant or South Arabia. If I was confused before about official Hebrew account now I'm focking dizzly!
Abraham was of the tribes according to both Biblical and Arabian tradition of the tribes of Peleg. Abraham lived in the area of Mecca and Misfalah (Machfelah of the Bible) and the Ur Khasdim that he came from was the Arabian one of which Salibi speaks. Ya gonna get dizzier, so have a mat on the floor!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ those guys are just the usual wanna be Zionists like AlT. They are no different than black Muslims who cling to contemporary Arabic identity or black Christians who cling to evangelism. They are all running from black power.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: So Abraham is suppose to be Chaldean or Southern Arabian? Was he "commanded" to go to Levant or South Arabia. If I was confused before about official Hebrew account now I'm focking dizzly!
Abraham was of the tribes according to both Biblical and Arabian tradition of the tribes of Peleg. Abraham lived in the area of Mecca and Misfalah (Machfelah of the Bible) and the Ur Khasdim that he came from was the Arabian one of which Salibi speaks. Ya gonna get dizzier, so have a mat on the floor!
Interesting, but as long as we have no proof the man even existed, your story is as good as the official account. They are both good bed time stories.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: ^ those guys are just the usual wanna be Zionists like AlT. They are no different than black Muslims who cling to contemporary Arabic identity or black Christians who cling to evangelism. They are all running from black power.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: So Abraham is suppose to be Chaldean or Southern Arabian? Was he "commanded" to go to Levant or South Arabia. If I was confused before about official Hebrew account now I'm focking dizzly!
Abraham was of the tribes according to both Biblical and Arabian tradition of the tribes of Peleg. Abraham lived in the area of Mecca and Misfalah (Machfelah of the Bible) and the Ur Khasdim that he came from was the Arabian one of which Salibi speaks. Ya gonna get dizzier, so have a mat on the floor!
Interesting, but as long as we have no proof the man even existed, your story is as good as the official account. They are both good bed time stories.
If they are good bed time stories which they are then they are good bed ttime stories some black people in the Arabian peninsula originated. It is not point to prove that Abraham or even Jesus existed. I consider much of the story of Bible allegory although based on apparently historical villages or locales. Because you have a dislike of "Jews" does not mean however there were not historical people involved in these allegories.
I'm not sure what guys are you talking about. Salibi is not a "black Muslim", He probably doesn't even know about the fact that Arabia was basically a black man and woman's land up until just several hundred years ago. He is a Druze Christian from Lebanon and the places still located in Arabia are no more figments of imimagination, than are the people who appear in the videos I posted. Bernard Leeman is also a "white" professor although he happened to be a former member of the ANC. His background is Irish and possibly Jewish.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The point of the articles I am in the process of posting is to show how Salibi's thesis about the anachronisms in the late Christian Biblical topynomy and geographic history. The fact that later Christians (A.D.) may have interpreted Old Testament names of the southwest Arabian peninsula was the whole point of Salibi's book THe Bible Came from Arabia. There is no question Biblical Saba was seen as a country to the far south of Israel and Herod of course lived in Israel at the time of the man, Jesus. That has nothing to do with what I am writing and it certainly doesn't mean that the Queen of Saba mentioned in the Bible was modern Ethiopia or Sudan. To this day Semitic people consider the Queen of Sheba to have been a Yemenite ruler. Apparently the Abyssinians did as well.
Yes, and others equate her with Hatshepsut, and some equate her with the Candaces, what’s your point? It doesn’t matter where she was from specifically, as it isn’t even established that she was a historical person. The reason why I quoted it, was to show to you that the ancients conceived a significant distance between the Hebrews and the kingdom of Makeda. A distance that according to your theory shouldn’t be there, as both the Hebrews and Sheba are located in southern Arabia according to you. I’m not sure what to make of your comments about later Christians misinterpreting locations in the bible, so I’m assuming this is your answer to my New Testament quote in an attempt to discredit Matthew the author. If it is, it doesn’t even make sense, because no NT author including Matthew, is a ‘’later Christian’’. And to imply that Salibi knows better how to interpret the locations and nations referred to in the Old Testament authors than contemporaries of Jesus, is just ridiculous.
If my above assessment of your answer is wrong, then what is your refutation of the quote that reveals the distance between the Hebrews and Shebans?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: First off its not my research Kalonji, and it is far from being sloppy. David Greenberg and many Biblical specialists have noted that the term Kushi, or Kushan is the name for the Midianites in the Bible. It is used there in Chronicles. It is the later Septuagint which renders the word Kushan Ethiopian.
You are arguing something which is not contested.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: to say that Midian is a branch of Jokshan or vice versa is hardly a stretch - is it Kalonji. They branched out of Keturah just as Dedan and Seba branched from Midian.
It is. And it is also a stretch to say that Dedan and Seba branched from Midian.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The Kushite of Num. 12 11 is just another name for the Midianite." So yes not only is Midian a branch of Jokshan but they are ONE AND THE SAME PEOPLE.
Saying one tribe is a branch of the other when the two tribes according to the bible are brothers, is like saying Y Haplogroup E-M2 is a branch of E-215, or the other way around. Or like saying Judah is a branch of Benjamin. And then adding like you said: ‘’THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME’’.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Furthermore where in the Bible does it say Misrayim is in Africa as you have stated.
The bible doesn’t say this directly of course, but there are many passages that sub communicatie that Mizraim equates Egypt if you receptive and looking, instead of believing something because it pertains to the people you’ve (obviously) taken an interest in. For example:
Whenever the Hebrews referred to the Nile, and they did that plenty of times, they used the word rvay, which stems from the native Egyptian word ye'or, meaning river.
Genesis 15:18 informs us that: The LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates
And anyone who has the slightest comprehension of Geography knows that the Levant lies between the Delta and the source of the Euphrates. In the bible it says that god stated: The river in Egypt is mine, I created it. This is very significant, as Yemen is not even supposed to have a river.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The word Egypt is the later translation of Misraim which that latter goup of the name as both a villages and tribal still exists in Arabia under as I have said the term Musrah or Masruh, Misramah and Masirah. The name Misraim only becomes applicable to Egypt due to the Hyksos presence there and does not occur before that period.
I’m sorry but I think you have no idea what you’re talking about. Anyone who thinks that the phenomenal events of the bible that are associated with Misraim can be identified with a tribe or a village has absolutely no insight into scriptures or logistics. It doesn’t even make sense, if you swap Mizraim with the southern Arabian Masruh, it would mean that Egypt is excluded from the bible. It then begs the question, why would a tribe/village as insignificant (judging by the lack of ancient referrals) as Masruh in the ancient world have more airtime in the bible than the nation of Egypt that was well known all across the ancient world. The Arabs, who are fond of throwing pebbles at Jews, would have been the first to say this if it was true. They call Egypt ‘’Misr’’ to this day. I don’t care about nice sounding duplicates of Israeli nations/locations in Arabia that someone with an agenda has written a book about. America has dozens of names that correspond with European names, many locations are called ‘’Holland’’ or ‘’Amsterdam’’. As for you question about where the bible says that Misraim is in Africa? The bible contains numerous references to ancient Egyptian cities. Cities besides the ones I’ve already mentioned that is.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And what do you know about Assyrian deportations in Arabia. Are you an archeological specialist.
I know that Sennarcharib mentioned that he intimidated and embarrassed King Hezekiah and that he gave a specific year for these events. I also know that the bible mentions that the Assyrian armies invaded Israel during the reign of Hezekiah. Guess what, these sources are corroborating each other which means that if source A (Sennacharib) chronicles submitting Hezekiah, and taking 46 levantine cities, and that source B (the bible) mentions Assyrian armies coming during the reign of Hezekiah, we can logically infer (for the ones that didn’t know already), that the land of Hezekiah, and therefore the land of the Hebrews had to be in the levant.
The general time frame (700 bc) can be directly and indirectly elicited from both sources. This doesn’t leave open room for separate Assyrian activity all the way down in southern Arabia because a king can’t be at more than one general area at the same time. And even more so, if he went into southern Arabian territory, we would’ve known it, because Assyrian kings weren’t exactly the modest ‘’I’ll just sweep that victory under the rug’’ types.
Again, this is corroborated by several other ancient sources, and none make mention of southern Arabia! I mean, you’re not going to tell us that the Greek word for Egypt (the other party in this affair that was mentioned in the bible and by Sennacharib) that Herodotus used when he mentioned his version of the events, is a mistranslation and should be read as Masruh as well, are you?
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And although the inhabitants of the ancient northern Lachish were found by early physical anthropologists to be of an Upper Egyptian physical or cranial type. It is just as likely that the smallish black men shown being captured by the Assyrians are from the south Arabian, Lachish.
No it’s not just as likely. If it was, I’m you would have supplied evidence of ancient Assyrians making that claim right now. The Assyrians invaded Israeli territory and deported a massive amount of people, the same can’t be said about southern Arabia, as I’ve said before.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: It is in South Arabia where it works - not modern Syro-Palestine whose Israel wasn't founded in the times of which the Old Testament speaks!
Even IF this is true, who cares? There can be organized activity in the absence of a formed nation. For example, Egypt had stories of clearly pre-dynastic characters, in dynastic settings. But these were conceived to have taken place way before the unification. To imply that we should therefore look somewhere else for the ‘’real’’ Egypt because of this is ludicrous. How many ancient peoples meet this criterion of having reflected in their mythological settings the gradual social complexity from ‘’savagery’’ to ‘’civilization’’ that is supported by archeology? They ALL have ancient stories that predate the glorious settings the ancients have placed them in.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: you could have looked at the Queen of Sheba book which is about the Ethiopians and their movement from Yemen and note that the Egyptians were in the area of the Yemen and had settled there, and such deities as Ra were in fact worshipped by the Hyksos . If Jacob was practicing mummification it would give credence to the view that the name of the Hyksos ruler Yaqub, was in fact Jacob of the Bible
I don’t understand your reasoning. What do the Hyksos have to do with this (the location of the Hebrews/Miszraim)? Why would it give credence to the view that the Hyksos ruler Yaqub Har was Jacob, just because a similarity of a common semetic name? The ‘’credence’’ you speak of doesn’t exist, because it was stated nowhere that the biblical Jacob embalmed anyone, let alone that he practiced mummification. The Hyksos idem ditto.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes - Salibi talks about his theories of the root for the words Pharaon. About Sheshonk's travels through Arabia and about Tell Dan in his books.
LOL, that’s funny to me, you actually thought I was talking solely about the location of Israel by using the Sheshonk argument, and you tried to explain it away by saying that Arabia is as good a candidate for the biblical Israel because ‘’he went to Arabia too’’. But that doesn’t follow, because the Sheshonk argument reveals both the biblical location of ‘’Mizraim’’ and the location of the Hebrews of the bible. This is not shuttle science:
1.Sheshonk is a known Egyptian Pharao in extra biblical sources (e.g. Egyptian records). 2.In the bible, Shishak (identified as Sheshonk), the king of ‘’Mizraim’’ attacked Rehoboam, the Hebrew king 3.This campaign, mentioned by the bible (step 2), is written In the Egyptian records as well, as an expedition into Canaan. He (Sheshonk I) erected several monuments in the Levant.
With these three facts, how is it possible, that the obvious conclusion (biblical Mizraim = Egypt) and (Israel = in the Levant) gets lost in anyones reasoning process?
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: To put it bluntly all the bases are covered. The best way to talk about these issues is by going to the blog at
Respond to the content of this post, and we’ll see if you’re able to cover the Makeda, Sheshonk, Assyria and nilotic hurdles.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Because you have a dislike of "Jews" does not mean however there were not historical people involved in these allegories.
Never denied a people called "Jews" existed back then, just their stories/myths they made up about their origins. Whether these stories originated in Arabia is still in question. I think the evidence points to Egypt is the main source of these myths.
quote:I’m not sure what to make of your comments about later Christians misinterpreting locations in the bible, so I’m assuming this is your answer to my New Testament quote in an attempt to discredit Matthew the author. If it is, it doesn’t even make sense, because no NT author including Matthew, is a ‘’later Christian’’. And to imply that Salibi knows better how to interpret the locations and nations referred to in the Old Testament authors than contemporaries of Jesus, is just ridiculous.
The "authors" of the four gospels are not historical personages but four points of the Zodiac [Christianity before Christ, John G. Jackson]. They all contradict each other and they are drawn from Gnosticism, sun gods myths [especially Horus] and Greek mysteries of the time. There was no "contemporary of Jesus" as such a personage has never been proven to even exist.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Because you have a dislike of "Jews" does not mean however there were not historical people involved in these allegories.
Never denied a people called "Jews" existed back then, just their stories/myths they made up about their origins. Whether these stories originated in Arabia is still in question. I think the evidence points to Egypt is the main source of these myths.
quote:I’m not sure what to make of your comments about later Christians misinterpreting locations in the bible, so I’m assuming this is your answer to my New Testament quote in an attempt to discredit Matthew the author. If it is, it doesn’t even make sense, because no NT author including Matthew, is a ‘’later Christian’’. And to imply that Salibi knows better how to interpret the locations and nations referred to in the Old Testament authors than contemporaries of Jesus, is just ridiculous.
The "authors" of the four gospels are not historical personages but four points of the Zodiac [Christianity before Christ, John G. Jackson]. They all contradict each other and they are drawn from Gnosticism, sun gods myths [especially Horus] and Greek mysteries of the time. There was no "contemporary of Jesus" as such a personage has never been proven to even exist.
What you say are actually my beliefs as well. I don't know about the 4 gospels but for the most part the Bible is largely allegorical and the people that originated it were Africans. The point is not to say well such and such were black or Jews were black - even though they were it is to show that these stories have roots that are much further back and can be only be understood in terms of their African or Afro-Asiatic context. But in doing so it is important for people to understand who exactly these ancient people the earliest Arabs, the Jews, the pre-Hellenes, the Berbers, Persians, the Ad or Akkad, the Egyptians, the makers of Megalithic culture, etc all supposedly "AfroEurasiatic" people came from, and more importantly whom they did not issue from. People whose culture engaged them in getting in touch with the inner divine and not UFOS and other external or externalized beings of the ever-Godless i.e. agnostic European culture or Western man. The latter have for the most part distorted almost every spiritual thing they have learned or experienced into some materialistic, hypocritical, self-centered, fear-mongering, self-preserving, hypocritical and near diabolical belief or "philosophy" of humanity and life.
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: First off its not my research Kalonji, and it is far from being sloppy. David Greenberg and many Biblical specialists have noted that the term Kushi, or Kushan is the name for the Midianites in the Bible. It is used there in Chronicles. It is the later Septuagint which renders the word Kushan Ethiopian.
You are arguing something which is not contested.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: to say that Midian is a branch of Jokshan or vice versa is hardly a stretch - is it Kalonji. They branched out of Keturah just as Dedan and Seba branched from Midian.
It is. And it is also a stretch to say that Dedan and Seba branched from Midian.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The Kushite of Num. 12 11 is just another name for the Midianite." So yes not only is Midian a branch of Jokshan but they are ONE AND THE SAME PEOPLE.
Saying one tribe is a branch of the other when the two tribes according to the bible are brothers, is like saying Y Haplogroup E-M2 is a branch of E-215, or the other way around. Or like saying Judah is a branch of Benjamin. And then adding like you said: ‘’THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME’’.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Furthermore where in the Bible does it say Misrayim is in Africa as you have stated.
The bible doesn’t say this directly of course, but there are many passages that sub communicatie that Mizraim equates Egypt if you receptive and looking, instead of believing something because it pertains to the people you’ve (obviously) taken an interest in. For example:
Whenever the Hebrews referred to the Nile, and they did that plenty of times, they used the word rvay, which stems from the native Egyptian word ye'or, meaning river.
Genesis 15:18 informs us that: The LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates
And anyone who has the slightest comprehension of Geography knows that the Levant lies between the Delta and the source of the Euphrates. In the bible it says that god stated: The river in Egypt is mine, I created it. This is very significant, as Yemen is not even supposed to have a river.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The word Egypt is the later translation of Misraim which that latter goup of the name as both a villages and tribal still exists in Arabia under as I have said the term Musrah or Masruh, Misramah and Masirah. The name Misraim only becomes applicable to Egypt due to the Hyksos presence there and does not occur before that period.
I’m sorry but I think you have no idea what you’re talking about. Anyone who thinks that the phenomenal events of the bible that are associated with Misraim can be identified with a tribe or a village has absolutely no insight into scriptures or logistics. It doesn’t even make sense, if you swap Mizraim with the southern Arabian Masruh, it would mean that Egypt is excluded from the bible. It then begs the question, why would a tribe/village as insignificant (judging by the lack of ancient referrals) as Masruh in the ancient world have more airtime in the bible than the nation of Egypt that was well known all across the ancient world. The Arabs, who are fond of throwing pebbles at Jews, would have been the first to say this if it was true. They call Egypt ‘’Misr’’ to this day. I don’t care about nice sounding duplicates of Israeli nations/locations in Arabia that someone with an agenda has written a book about. America has dozens of names that correspond with European names, many locations are called ‘’Holland’’ or ‘’Amsterdam’’. As for you question about where the bible says that Misraim is in Africa? The bible contains numerous references to ancient Egyptian cities. Cities besides the ones I’ve already mentioned that is.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And what do you know about Assyrian deportations in Arabia. Are you an archeological specialist.
I know that Sennarcharib mentioned that he intimidated and embarrassed King Hezekiah and that he gave a specific year for these events. I also know that the bible mentions that the Assyrian armies invaded Israel during the reign of Hezekiah. Guess what, these sources are corroborating each other which means that if source A (Sennacharib) chronicles submitting Hezekiah, and taking 46 levantine cities, and that source B (the bible) mentions Assyrian armies coming during the reign of Hezekiah, we can logically infer (for the ones that didn’t know already), that the land of Hezekiah, and therefore the land of the Hebrews had to be in the levant.
The general time frame (700 bc) can be directly and indirectly elicited from both sources. This doesn’t leave open room for separate Assyrian activity all the way down in southern Arabia because a king can’t be at more than one general area at the same time. And even more so, if he went into southern Arabian territory, we would’ve known it, because Assyrian kings weren’t exactly the modest ‘’I’ll just sweep that victory under the rug’’ types.
Again, this is corroborated by several other ancient sources, and none make mention of southern Arabia! I mean, you’re not going to tell us that the Greek word for Egypt (the other party in this affair that was mentioned in the bible and by Sennacharib) that Herodotus used when he mentioned his version of the events, is a mistranslation and should be read as Masruh as well, are you?
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And although the inhabitants of the ancient northern Lachish were found by early physical anthropologists to be of an Upper Egyptian physical or cranial type. It is just as likely that the smallish black men shown being captured by the Assyrians are from the south Arabian, Lachish.
No it’s not just as likely. If it was, I’m you would have supplied evidence of ancient Assyrians making that claim right now. The Assyrians invaded Israeli territory and deported a massive amount of people, the same can’t be said about southern Arabia, as I’ve said before.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: It is in South Arabia where it works - not modern Syro-Palestine whose Israel wasn't founded in the times of which the Old Testament speaks!
Even IF this is true, who cares? There can be organized activity in the absence of a formed nation. For example, Egypt had stories of clearly pre-dynastic characters, in dynastic settings. But these were conceived to have taken place way before the unification. To imply that we should therefore look somewhere else for the ‘’real’’ Egypt because of this is ludicrous. How many ancient peoples meet this criterion of having reflected in their mythological settings the gradual social complexity from ‘’savagery’’ to ‘’civilization’’ that is supported by archeology? They ALL have ancient stories that predate the glorious settings the ancients have placed them in.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: you could have looked at the Queen of Sheba book which is about the Ethiopians and their movement from Yemen and note that the Egyptians were in the area of the Yemen and had settled there, and such deities as Ra were in fact worshipped by the Hyksos . If Jacob was practicing mummification it would give credence to the view that the name of the Hyksos ruler Yaqub, was in fact Jacob of the Bible
I don’t understand your reasoning. What do the Hyksos have to do with this (the location of the Hebrews/Miszraim)? Why would it give credence to the view that the Hyksos ruler Yaqub Har was Jacob, just because a similarity of a common semetic name? The ‘’credence’’ you speak of doesn’t exist, because it was stated nowhere that the biblical Jacob embalmed anyone, let alone that he practiced mummification. The Hyksos idem ditto.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes - Salibi talks about his theories of the root for the words Pharaon. About Sheshonk's travels through Arabia and about Tell Dan in his books.
LOL, that’s funny to me, you actually thought I was talking solely about the location of Israel by using the Sheshonk argument, and you tried to explain it away by saying that Arabia is as good a candidate for the biblical Israel because ‘’he went to Arabia too’’. But that doesn’t follow, because the Sheshonk argument reveals both the biblical location of ‘’Mizraim’’ and the location of the Hebrews of the bible. This is not shuttle science:
1.Sheshonk is a known Egyptian Pharao in extra biblical sources (e.g. Egyptian records). 2.In the bible, Shishak (identified as Sheshonk), the king of ‘’Mizraim’’ attacked Rehoboam, the Hebrew king 3.This campaign, mentioned by the bible (step 2), is written In the Egyptian records as well, as an expedition into Canaan. He (Sheshonk I) erected several monuments in the Levant.
With these three facts, how is it possible, that the obvious conclusion (biblical Mizraim = Egypt) and (Israel = in the Levant) gets lost in anyones reasoning process?
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: To put it bluntly all the bases are covered. The best way to talk about these issues is by going to the blog at
Respond to the content of this post, and we’ll see if you’re able to cover the Makeda, Sheshonk, Assyria and nilotic hurdles.
I said pose your questions to Salibi they are not mine and he has already answered them in his books. His arguements unlike yours are not based on Biblical passages. Also, your analogies show that your logic is severely lacking as with certain other peoples on this forum and its unlikely that I will be able to respond to some of your comments for that reason. One being "Saying one tribe is a branch of the other when the two tribes according to the bible are brothers, is like saying Y Haplogroup E-M2 is a branch of E-215, or the other way around. Or like saying Judah is a branch of Benjamin. And then adding like you said: ‘’THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME’’." No Kalonji that is not a good analogy especially since you are quoting some tribal legend and then trying to make some connection with someone misconstruing science. That's not the way sense works. That is in fact what is called Nonsense. It is no wonder you don't "understand" reasoning.
I said Seva and Dedan was a branch of Midian. Actually I meant to say Jokshan/Kushan/Kushi but since you have agreed with the scholarly assessment (that is not what is "contested" - remember?) that they are the same people I'm not sure what complaint you have with the use of the word branch.
Like I said Mizraim was used for the Biblical Egypt only after the Mizrah people conquered the African land of Ta-Khem. Noone said Mizraim was never equated with the modern northern African "Egypt" in the Bible a land that they conquered and named.
Yes, Salibi and others agree that Sheshonk was a King in the African Egypt, although some others disagree that he was Shishak of the Bible due to chronological reasons. The African Kush is obviously also mentioned in the Bible. That doesn't mean the words Kush and Mizraim were not used in the Bible for populations then also living in Arabia. In the case of Kush in fact it is mostly for African Arabs as has been shown.
Furthmore, Sheshonk has been seen by many scholars as a "Libyan" which makes it not impossible that he was descended from the tribe of Mizrah that settled in "Egypt" in the Hyksos period.
Is this the "Egyptian Pharoah" your talking about Kalonji, "With 1200 chariots and 60,000 horsemen and the innumerable troops of Libyans, Sukkites and Cushites that came with him from Misraim, he captured the fortified cities of Judah and came as far as Jerusalem" 2 Chronicles 12:3 Hmmm, wonder what happened to the Egyptians. Regardless of what was erected in the Levant the cities he conquered were almost all in the Hejaz and dozens have been enumerated by Salibi. Most of these towns HAVE NOT been found in the Levant. So what you have said about that is completely unfounded if not an outright lie you were trying to promote here. As I mentioned the groups of towns as they are listed in the Amarna list are in the order that they are grouped in Arabia. pp. pp. 73 to 75 in the Chapter Non- Findings in Palestine of Salibi's, The Bible Came from Arabia.
Among these towns are the Hejaz locales of Mathani and Nahar which according to Salibi have been wrongly interpreted as the more northerly Maitanni and Nahrain, (who in fact were most likely affiliated with them). And probably partly explains why Greek writers sometimes equate the Medes with Midianites and even Moors, and why the story of Job and Tobias of Medea in the Book of Tobit of Medea are so similar.
And I have mentioned many times previiously the original land of Banu Ken'ani (Canaan) was iand in the land of the Banu Kenani before it was in Syria. In case you didn't know it these Kenaani or Kun'an still occupy their southern Arabian homeland and the Quraysh, Zuhra, Jumah and other of Hejazi whose tribes are described as extremely black(see quotes in, The Unknown Arabs) claim descent from them. That is where the black people occupying the area of the northern Israel and Jericho now called Canaani lived before they came northward from the original Jericho of Ifrikesh Tubba. The fact that there are still Qureysh among the modern Israelite Canaani may mean they were a later movement of blacks northward from Hejaz. Salibi equates the name Quraysh and Jurasy with Girgash.
Like the original land of Kana'an which Salibi idntifies with the Wadi Beish or Bisha region the modern tribe of Kuna'an of Beisha, the towns of Misramah and Madrum, Hamm, Kush, Lahaba - Libyans?) Philisi (Falsah), Caphturim, Casluhim (El Haskun), etc. are all the names of south or west Arabian villages and peoples or tribes from which they recieved their names.
The names of a great number of the clans of Israel and Judah are also there in the Asir - like it or not - unlike in the modern Israel where most of these places have yet to be or will never be discovered.
The Yemen did have rivers in fact including 4 famous rivers of Eden (Aden). Wadis are associated with water and rivers them in case you didn't know it. It is in fact a riverbed.
Your reference to America having many names similar to Europeans fall flat when it is discovered the locales in Arabia are in the coordinates that they are supposed to be in, UNLIKE in the modern Israel. Furthermore, that is the argument Salibi uses to explain why Israelite and Canaanite names are found in Syria or Mesopotamia. So you have added to his point. only problem they apparently only carried some of the names northward from Arabia. The bulk of them never made it and remain in the land of Arabia south of Mecca. As I said all the bases have been covered so you can look at the discoveries of Salibi and other real historians, archeologists and linguists.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kalonji: [QUOTE] [QUOTE]
Genesis 15:18 informs us that: [i]The LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates[QUOTE]
Misrah and Firat in this case refers to the river Firat a South Arabian river and is definitely the one referred to in some African origin traditions.
Salibi translation is different "In Wadi Adam, which forms part of the main valley of the Lith region , there is a village called Firt (prt) and another called Farat (also prt) which leads me to suggest that Yahweh's promise to Abram should be read as follows. 'To your descendants I will give this land, from the stream of Misramah or Nhr msrym to the great stream (h-nhr hgdwl), the stream Firt (or Farat), (nhr prt), this being the Wadi Adam not "the River Euphrates'".
If you have a problem with it you can always talk to him about it.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kalonji: [qb] [QUOTE] Originally posted by dana
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE] Originally posted by dana marniche: And what do you know about Assyrian deportations in Arabia. Are you an archeological specialist.
I know that Sennarcharib mentioned that he intimidated and embarrassed King Hezekiah and that he gave a specific year for these events. I also know that the bible mentions that the Assyrian armies invaded Israel during the reign of Hezekiah. Guess what, these sources are corroborating each other which means that if source A (Sennacharib) chronicles submitting Hezekiah, and taking 46 levantine cities, and that source B (the bible) mentions Assyrian armies coming during the reign of Hezekiah, we can logically infer (for the ones that didn’t know already), that the land of Hezekiah, and therefore the land of the Hebrews had to be in the levant.
The general time frame (700 bc) can be directly and indirectly elicited from both sources. This doesn’t leave open room for separate Assyrian activity all the way down in southern Arabia because a king can’t be at more than one general area at the same time. And even more so, if he went into southern Arabian territory, we would’ve known it, because Assyrian kings weren’t exactly the modest ‘’I’ll just sweep that victory under the rug’’ types.
Again, this is corroborated by several other ancient sources, and none make mention of southern Arabia! I mean, you’re not going to tell us that the Greek word for Egypt (the other party in this affair that was mentioned in the bible and by Sennacharib) that Herodotus used when he mentioned his version of the events, is a mistranslation and should be read as Masruh as well, are you?
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And although the inhabitants of the ancient northern Lachish were found by early physical anthropologists to be of an Upper Egyptian physical or cranial type. It is just as likely that the smallish black men shown being captured by the Assyrians are from the south Arabian, Lachish.
No it’s not just as likely. If it was, I’m you would have supplied evidence of ancient Assyrians making that claim right now. The Assyrians invaded Israeli territory and deported a massive amount of people, the same can’t be said about southern Arabia, as I’ve said before.
You are absolutely right the Assyrians invasion the tribes of the Hejaz and Asir was devastating. And if and when you find a single inscription of Hezekiah in Syria you just let me know. Better yet let all Biblical archeologists know because at the present time they are at loss in finding it.
On the other hand here are apparently some of Hezekiah's people still living under their same names in Hejaz, Jordan and Tihama.
"The Haweitat or Huwayt’at (or see Hatita Ezra 2:42) Ezra 2:42 The children of the porters: the children of Shallum, the children of Ater, the children of Talmon, the children of Akkub, the children of Hatita. “Hatita: Bene-Hatita (i.e. sons of Hatita) were among the “porters” (i.e. the gate-keepers)” Smith’s Bible Dictionary.
One European traveler as late as 1887 wrote of a sheikh of the Haweitat tribes in the region of northwest Arabia: “The sheikh soon afterwards appeared. He was a dirty, truculent looking fellow, with very black eyes and very white teeth, a sinister expression, and complexion scarcely less dark than that of a negro.” Austen Henry Layard, Early Adventures in Persia, Susiana, and Babylonia: Including … pg. 32. Published by J. Murray.
As mentioned by Salibi, Huwayt is the plural in Arabic for Hatita. Speaking of the Wadi Damah in Jordan Burton talks of, “its present Huwayti owners, the Sulaymiyyin, the Sulaymat, the Jerafin, …” in Volume 2 of the Land of Midian.
See also Journal of the Royal Geographic Society. In 1879 the Huwayt’at are described as “an aggressive element in the Midianite family of Bedouin” by Richard Burton. Among the Howeitat clans in The Gold Mines of Midian and the Ruined Midianite Cities… also by Burton, were the Rakabiyyeh, Amirat, Ureinat, Jawahir or Zawahir, Kur’an, Ziyabin and Imran.
Banu Rakabiyyeh or Rikab (See Rechab the Kenite 1Chronicles 2:55) : The Rechabites were descended from Hobab the Kenite (See Khufaf) who had come from the family of Hammath who is elsewhere called Hammon. (1 Chron. 6:76).
Banu Utur or Watar (See Ater in Ezra or Ezdra 2:40, 2:42, 5:15): He is called Ater of Hezekiah who was one of the greatest kings of Judah (Ezdras 5:15). He fathered 98 persons mentioned in the Bible.
Banu Sobh or Subh (Shobai Ezra 2:40, 2:42): “Descendants of Shallum, Ater, Talmon, Akkub, Hatita, and Shobai from the temple guards…” Ezra 2:40. “To the B. Salem belong amongst other clans, al-Hamda, al-Subh, ‘Amr, Mu’ara…,” E. J. Brill’s Encyclopedia, 1936. Shobai is written Sabi or Sabei in Ezra 5:28."
From The Africa-Arabian Origins of the Israelites and the Ishmaelites from Dana Reynolds- Marniche
The Huwayt'at/Howeitat of Jordan also live in Hijaz (Hatita singular) and Tihama. The above named peoples Utur/Water (Ater), Subh (Sobhai),Salim (Shallum) Beni Amr, Imran, Rechab etc. are clans of Haweitat and Masruh. Most tribes of Israel were never lost just turned Muslims.
Other Hejazis mentioned in Ezra are the Bega (Beja) the Baza, the Hashem, the Gibbar, and the Bayt Lekhem
"The children of Biga, two thousand and fifty-six. 15 The children of Adin, four hundred and fifty-four. 16 The children of Ater of the family of Hezekiah, ninety-eight. 17 The children of Bezai, three hundred and twenty-three. 18 The children of Jorah, a hundred and twelve. 19 The children of Hashum, two hundred and twenty-three. 20 The children of Gibbar, ninety-five. 21 The children of Bethlehem, a hundred and twenty-three." 2The rest of the clans are also located in the south .. ."
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kalonji: [qb] [QUOTE] Originally posted by dana marniche:
A 14th century Syrian traveller thru Hijaz had this to say, "Red, in the speech of the people from Hijaz means fair-complexioned, and this color IS RARE amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying … a red man as if he is one of the slaves.” From Seyar A’laam al-Nubalaa, vol. 2, by the Syrian Al-Dhahabi (Thahabi),of the century 14th c. A.D.
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by dana marniche: you could have looked at the Queen of Sheba book which is about the Ethiopians and their movement from Yemen and note that the Egyptians were in the area of the Yemen and had settled there, and such deities as Ra were in fact worshipped by the Hyksos . If Jacob was practicing mummification it would give credence to the view that the name of the Hyksos ruler Yaqub, was in fact Jacob of the Bible
I don’t understand your reasoning. What do the Hyksos have to do with this (the location of the Hebrews/Miszraim)? Why would it give credence to the view that the Hyksos ruler Yaqub Har was Jacob, just because a similarity of a common semetic name? The ‘’credence’’ you speak of doesn’t exist, because it was stated nowhere that the biblical Jacob embalmed anyone, let alone that he practiced mummification. The Hyksos idem ditto.
[
First of all the Hyksos have everything to do with the name of Mizraim, Kalonji you said you came back from the other forum you apparently came back at the wrong time. I've already gone into this in another posting and will not be revisiting it here.
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While you're looking at the Hyksos and their connection to the Hebrews you might want to look at some of the discussion that took place back some years ago on the University of Chicago forum to see what academics already knew about how the name Musrah or Musri mentioned by Assyrians got to Egypt.
"To this is to note, that Musri is the semitic name for Lower Egypt, Assarhadon wanting to be more specific used the name Paturisi for the south. I want to assert Musri is the name Lower Egypt got in consequence of the Hyksos occupation. To make the difference, later after the Hyksos period, remained the name Musri the general name for Egypt, while to be more specific the rest Hyksos state became known as Meluhha, vulgo known as Musri (Assarhadon). A first reference might be of interest Senacheribs 3-rd campaign (battle of Eltekeh): "Hezekiah, the Iaudai ... called upon the Musri kings, the bowmen and horses of the king of Meluhha. As for Hezekiah. the terrifying splendor of my majesty overcame him, and the Urbi, mercenary troops, which he had brought in to strengthen Jerusalem,..., deserted him." This allows an identification of both Musri=Meluhha=Urbi (Arabs). We have further the contemporary description of the road of Meluhha (in the imaginary geography of Sargon of Akkade). The road beginns at Bazzu (identified in the Arabian desert), at the cistern of the Euphrates. This as well as its length makes its identification with the kings´road (Melek>>Meluhha) possible. The work is probably a description of the empire of Sargon II in mythical terms. The name Musri (Misor) is preserved in Jordan till to present days for the socalled highland of Gilead. This is a retreat of the Amalekites connected by Arab historiography constantly with the Hyksos. Another occurence of the name Musri, the river of Musri, is the border river between Juda and the Amalekites, regionally also known as Besor due to the variance between b and m in semitic. See as an example Bar (aram. son) against Mar (amor. son). Next occurence of Musri/Meluhha is in the diary of Assarhadons 10-th campaign: "I broke camp, through Musri/Meluhha, I marched staightaway. 30 beru of ground, from the city of Apku (the eastern Aphek, since Assarhadon is avoiding the teritory of former Israel, now rebelled, by a desert eastern route), which is on the border of country of Same(ri)na, to the city of Rapihi (Raphia), by the side of the brook of Musri - where there is no river - ... Over 20 beru of ground, a 15 days journey. I advanced... 4 beru of ground... 4 beru of ground, a journey of 2 days... 4 beru of ground, a journey of 2 days... 4 beru of ground, a journey of 2 days... 15 beru of ground, a journey of 8 days... for 27 days...(the city of Rapihi) which is on the border of Musri toward Magan (Midian?), I spent the night.""
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: No Kalonji that is not a good analogy especially since you are quoting some tribal legend and then trying to make some connection with someone misconstruing science. That's not the way sense works. That is in fact what is called Nonsense. It is no wonder you don't "understand" reasoning.
LOL. It doesn’t matter if the characters (Benjamin & Judah, Midian & Jokshan) are factual or not. Neither is it about equating biblical misunderstandings with scientific misunderstandings. What this is about (and I hope you’ll finally get it this time) is taxonomical ordering. Whenever two things are on the same level (meaning not super ordinate or subordinate) and metaphorical siblings, none can be branches of each other. In fact, they both are branches of the entity that is taxonomically above them. This is uber elementary, like really, really basic reasoning. And this applies to Midian and Jokshan, just like it does to haplogroups E-M2 and E-M215.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: I said Seva and Dedan was a branch of Midian. Actually I meant to say Jokshan/Kushan/Kushi but since you have agreed with the scholarly assessment (that is not what is "contested" - remember?) that they are the same people I'm not sure what complaint you have with the use of the word branch.
The thing I agreed on, was you saying: ‘’ Kushi, or Kushan is the name for the Midianites in the Bible.
The bible actually SAYS this: Habakkuk 3:7 I saw the tents of Cushan in distress, the dwellings of Midian in anguish
Your OTHER claims: -Cushan and Jokshan are the same -The Jokshan are a branch of the Midianites Are NOWHERE in the bible!
But you claimed:
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The Biblical book of Habakkuk 3:7 speaks of Jokshan as Kushan.
^ and cited Habakkuk 3:7 right after that, as if the bible supported that claim while it really doesn’t.
Now that, Dana, is my complaint.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Like I said Mizraim was used for the Biblical Egypt only after the Mizrah people conquered the African land of Ta-Khem.
This is a world of difference from your original claim:
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: ‘’It is also why they haven't been able to find many of the early events of the Old Testament like the Exodus from Egypt. Egypt was an inaccurate translation of Misrah the tribe of Arabians still known as Masruh today’’
It doesn't even make sense, First you say, well, we can't find evidence for the exodus, so this must mean these events took place in Arabia, where Masruh could explain Mizraim
and then you say, well, Egypt was called Mizraim after the Hyksos occupation.
Did it ever occured to you that the Exodus was conceived to have taken place in a time, that was AFTER the dates we've got for the Hyksos. Why then, is there a need to cling to the Arabian exodus? Isn't Mizraim already a name for Egypt by then?
First you use ‘’the fact that they haven’t been able to find many early events’’ as evidence that we have to look for Israel somewhere else.
Then you agree with Anguish and say that: ''for the most part the Bible is largely allegorical''
Why is there a need to find evidence of the exodus, and when you don't find it, assert one is better off seeking it in Arabia, when the bible is for the most part allegorical?
You’re also not too consistent about the tribe that equates the Hyksos/the tribe that invaded Egypt -First you make a case by showing the religious ties (worshippers of Seth) between Banu Azd and the hyksos -Then you say that the Masruh conquered Egypt.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Furthmore, Sheshonk has been seen by many scholars as a "Libyan" which makes it not impossible that he was descended from the tribe of Mizrah that settled in "Egypt" in the Hyksos period.
Huh..? What are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever. First you say he is Libyan, and then you say it is not impossible that he’s a descendant of the Mizrah. Do you even realize how wishy washy that statement is? Your post are full of these whishy washy speculation and possible connections.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Is this the "Egyptian Pharoah" your talking about Kalonji, "With 1200 chariots and 60,000 horsemen and the innumerable troops of Libyans, Sukkites and Cushites that came with him from Misraim, he captured the fortified cities of Judah and came as far as Jerusalem" 2 Chronicles 12:3 Hmmm, wonder what happened to the Egyptians.
Again this whishy washy-ness, trying to make connections. I have no idea what you’re alluding to here. But then again, I’m not a Mike111 type researcher. Maybe you have to be like Mike111 and em to start imagining away at your cue.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Regardless of what was erected in the Levant the cities he conquered were almost all in the Hejaz and dozens have been enumerated by Salibi. Most of these towns HAVE NOT been found in the Levant. So what you have said about that is completely unfounded if not an outright lie you were trying to promote here.
There you go again making nothing but claims (the cities were all in the Hejaz), while adding nothing to substantiate it. I’m not even going in on this, because there is nothing to go in on. Any child can piece together connections which is something pseudo scholars are fond of. And then, as soon as I start tearing your arguments apart with facts, you say I should talk to Salibi as you’ve done several times, when it is you who made said claims. Then, in all irony, you accuse me of making unfounded claims, when your posts consist of nothing but sloppy work about connections between ancient and modern tribes that can’t be (in)validated by no one. You know something is sloppy when you have to rely on a someone’s word and can’t validate it yourself.
A simple Google session is more than enough to see corroboration of my assertions about virtually anything I’ve said, including the monuments of Sjeshonk in the Levant. Here is the stele fragment by the way that bears his name.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Misrah and Firat in this case refers to the river Firat a South Arabian river and is definitely the one referred to in some African origin traditions.
You can’t dislocate the biblical Euphrates with the modern river and associate it with something in southern Arabia, because the river is associated with Assyria (2 Kings 23:29). Which means the regular translation of the Hebrew between the Delta and the Euphrates (Genesis 15:18) (note the words ''GREAT'' river) still stands.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And I have mentioned many times previiously the original land of Banu Ken'ani (Canaan) was iand in the land of the Banu Kenani before it was in Syria. In case you didn't know it these Kenaani or Kun'an still occupy their southern Arabian homeland and the Quraysh, Zuhra, Jumah and other of Hejazi That is where the black people occupying the area of the northern Israel and Jericho now called Canaani lived before they came northward from the original Jericho of Ifrikesh Tubba.
This is exactly what I mean, a bunch of statements that we have to take YOUR word for. Why should Canaan be there, simply because you are saying it’s so? And what is the prefix ‘’as I’ve mentioned many times’’ supposed to mean? You can shout it from the roofs for all I care, I’m interested in evidence, that’s what is needed.
You have yet to address: 1.The monuments that are constantly being found in the Levant, while no monuments with references to Hebrews are found in Arabia. (Sheshonq 1 monument at Megiddo, the Moab inscription, Tel Dan Inscription) 2.Biblical verses that imply the huge distance between Sheba and the Hebrews 3.The biblical verse that locates the Hebrews in the Levant (Genesis 15:18) (See above for why it can’t refer to anything in southern Arabia)
I’ll add a few more for you to consider If you agree that by the time of the Hyksos, Mizraim refers to Egypt, we can test the location of Israel by using the following references
4.The bible says the Tigris and the Euphrates congregate in Eden. Where do you have to be, to perceive this congregation as in the east? (Hint, it start with ‘’Le’’ and ends with ‘’vant’’). Again, the Euphrates are assocated with Assyrians (2 Kings 23:29, Genesis 2:14), not southern Arabians.
Genesis 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Genesis 2:14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
5.The bible says the Amalekites were in the south. Well, where were the Amelekites located? They were located to the east of Egypt, this is infact, the region you keep referring to (Hijaz). This means that (assuming ‘’Mizram’’ didn’t magically swap again after the Hyksos occupation) the Hebrews were located not in Hijaz, but to the north of both Egypt and Hijaz.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites 1 Samuel 15:7 So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt.
Thats 5 points for ya. Good luck
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The "authors" of the four gospels are not historical personages but four points of the Zodiac [Christianity before Christ, John G. Jackson]. They all contradict each other and they are drawn from Gnosticism, sun gods myths [especially Horus] and Greek mysteries of the time. There was no "contemporary of Jesus" as such a personage has never been proven to even exist.
Then substitute ''Mattew'' with ''the writer(s) of the book Mattew'' and ''contemporary of Jesus'' with ''contemporary of Herod''.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: [QUOTE] Originally posted by dana marniche: No Kalonji that is not a good analogy especially since you are quoting some tribal legend and then trying to make some connection with someone misconstruing science. That's not the way sense works. That is in fact what is called Nonsense. It is no wonder you don't "understand" reasoning.
LOL. It doesn’t matter if the characters (Benjamin & Judah, Midian & Jokshan) are factual or not. Neither is it about equating biblical misunderstandings with scientific misunderstandings. What this is about (and I hope you’ll finally get it this time) is taxonomical ordering. Whenever two things are on the same level (meaning not super ordinate or subordinate) and metaphorical siblings, none can be branches of each other. In fact, they both are branches of the entity that is taxonomically above them. This is uber elementary, like really, really basic reasoning. And this applies to Midian and Jokshan, just like it does to haplogroups E-M2 and E-M215.
quote: Good luck
Why do you keep quoting the Bible in dealing with historical things Kalonji. Like I said such things make No sense.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: No Kalonji that is not a good analogy especially since you are quoting some tribal legend and then trying to make some connection with someone misconstruing science. That's not the way sense works. That is in fact what is called Nonsense. It is no wonder you don't "understand" reasoning.
LOL. It doesn’t matter if the characters (Benjamin & Judah, Midian & Jokshan) are factual or not. Neither is it about equating biblical misunderstandings with scientific misunderstandings. What this is about (and I hope you’ll finally get it this time) is taxonomical ordering. Whenever two things are on the same level (meaning not super ordinate or subordinate) and metaphorical siblings, none can be branches of each other. In fact, they both are branches of the entity that is taxonomically above them. This is uber elementary, like really, really basic reasoning. And this applies to Midian and Jokshan, just like it does to haplogroups E-M2 and E-M215.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: I said Seva and Dedan was a branch of Midian. Actually I meant to say Jokshan/Kushan/Kushi but since you have agreed with the scholarly assessment (that is not what is "contested" - remember?) that they are the same people I'm not sure what complaint you have with the use of the word branch.
The thing I agreed on, was you saying: ‘’ Kushi, or Kushan is the name for the Midianites in the Bible.
The bible actually SAYS this: Habakkuk 3:7 I saw the tents of Cushan in distress, the dwellings of Midian in anguish
Your OTHER claims: -Cushan and Jokshan are the same -The Jokshan are a branch of the Midianites Are NOWHERE in the bible!
But you claimed:
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: The Biblical book of Habakkuk 3:7 speaks of Jokshan as Kushan.
^ and cited Habakkuk 3:7 right after that, as if the bible supported that claim while it really doesn’t.
Now that, Dana, is my complaint.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Like I said Mizraim was used for the Biblical Egypt only after the Mizrah people conquered the African land of Ta-Khem.
This is a world of difference from your original claim:
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: ‘’It is also why they haven't been able to find many of the early events of the Old Testament like the Exodus from Egypt. Egypt was an inaccurate translation of Misrah the tribe of Arabians still known as Masruh today’’
It doesn't even make sense, First you say, well, we can't find evidence for the exodus, so this must mean these events took place in Arabia, where Masruh could explain Mizraim
and then you say, well, Egypt was called Mizraim after the Hyksos occupation.
Did it ever occured to you that the Exodus was conceived to have taken place in a time, that was AFTER the dates we've got for the Hyksos. Why then, is there a need to cling to the Arabian exodus? Isn't Mizraim already a name for Egypt by then?
First you use ‘’the fact that they haven’t been able to find many early events’’ as evidence that we have to look for Israel somewhere else.
Then you agree with Anguish and say that: ''for the most part the Bible is largely allegorical''
Why is there a need to find evidence of the exodus, and when you don't find it, assert one is better off seeking it in Arabia, when the bible is for the most part allegorical?
You’re also not too consistent about the tribe that equates the Hyksos/the tribe that invaded Egypt -First you make a case by showing the religious ties (worshippers of Seth) between Banu Azd and the hyksos -Then you say that the Masruh conquered Egypt.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Furthmore, Sheshonk has been seen by many scholars as a "Libyan" which makes it not impossible that he was descended from the tribe of Mizrah that settled in "Egypt" in the Hyksos period.
Huh..? What are you talking about? That made absolutely no sense whatsoever. First you say he is Libyan, and then you say it is not impossible that he’s a descendant of the Mizrah. Do you even realize how wishy washy that statement is? Your post are full of these whishy washy speculation and possible connections.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Is this the "Egyptian Pharoah" your talking about Kalonji, "With 1200 chariots and 60,000 horsemen and the innumerable troops of Libyans, Sukkites and Cushites that came with him from Misraim, he captured the fortified cities of Judah and came as far as Jerusalem" 2 Chronicles 12:3 Hmmm, wonder what happened to the Egyptians.
Again this whishy washy-ness, trying to make connections. I have no idea what you’re alluding to here. But then again, I’m not a Mike111 type researcher. Maybe you have to be like Mike111 and em to start imagining away at your cue.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Regardless of what was erected in the Levant the cities he conquered were almost all in the Hejaz and dozens have been enumerated by Salibi. Most of these towns HAVE NOT been found in the Levant. So what you have said about that is completely unfounded if not an outright lie you were trying to promote here.
There you go again making nothing but claims (the cities were all in the Hejaz), while adding nothing to substantiate it. I’m not even going in on this, because there is nothing to go in on. Any child can piece together connections which is something pseudo scholars are fond of. And then, as soon as I start tearing your arguments apart with facts, you say I should talk to Salibi as you’ve done several times, when it is you who made said claims. Then, in all irony, you accuse me of making unfounded claims, when your posts consist of nothing but sloppy work about connections between ancient and modern tribes that can’t be (in)validated by no one. You know something is sloppy when you have to rely on a someone’s word and can’t validate it yourself.
A simple Google session is more than enough to see corroboration of my assertions about virtually anything I’ve said, including the monuments of Sjeshonk in the Levant. Here is the stele fragment by the way that bears his name.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: Misrah and Firat in this case refers to the river Firat a South Arabian river and is definitely the one referred to in some African origin traditions.
You can’t dislocate the biblical Euphrates with the modern river and associate it with something in southern Arabia, because the river is associated with Assyria (2 Kings 23:29). Which means the regular translation of the Hebrew between the Delta and the Euphrates (Genesis 15:18) (note the words ''GREAT'' river) still stands.
quote: Originally posted by dana marniche: And I have mentioned many times previiously the original land of Banu Ken'ani (Canaan) was iand in the land of the Banu Kenani before it was in Syria. In case you didn't know it these Kenaani or Kun'an still occupy their southern Arabian homeland and the Quraysh, Zuhra, Jumah and other of Hejazi That is where the black people occupying the area of the northern Israel and Jericho now called Canaani lived before they came northward from the original Jericho of Ifrikesh Tubba.
This is exactly what I mean, a bunch of statements that we have to take YOUR word for. Why should Canaan be there, simply because you are saying it’s so? And what is the prefix ‘’as I’ve mentioned many times’’ supposed to mean? You can shout it from the roofs for all I care, I’m interested in evidence, that’s what is needed.
You have yet to address: 1.The monuments that are constantly being found in the Levant, while no monuments with references to Hebrews are found in Arabia. (Sheshonq 1 monument at Megiddo, the Moab inscription, Tel Dan Inscription) 2.Biblical verses that imply the huge distance between Sheba and the Hebrews 3.The biblical verse that locates the Hebrews in the Levant (Genesis 15:18) (See above for why it can’t refer to anything in southern Arabia)
I’ll add a few more for you to consider If you agree that by the time of the Hyksos, Mizraim refers to Egypt, we can test the location of Israel by using the following references
4.The bible says the Tigris and the Euphrates congregate in Eden. Where do you have to be, to perceive this congregation as in the east? (Hint, it start with ‘’Le’’ and ends with ‘’vant’’). Again, the Euphrates are assocated with Assyrians (2 Kings 23:29, Genesis 2:14), not southern Arabians.
Genesis 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Genesis 2:14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
5.The bible says the Amalekites were in the south. Well, where were the Amelekites located? They were located to the east of Egypt, this is infact, the region you keep referring to (Hijaz). This means that (assuming ‘’Mizram’’ didn’t magically swap again after the Hyksos occupation) the Hebrews were located not in Hijaz, but to the north of both Egypt and Hijaz.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites 1 Samuel 15:7 So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt.
Thats 5 points for ya. Good luck
Your 5 points are quoted the Bible Kalonji put some historical background into your arguments and maybe I can answer your "points". I told you you don't have to take my word all you have to do is some scholarly research like Salibi, and many other people who you disagree with. Or for that matter read some of my postings where these things have been already referenced.
Sorry i don't have much time to argue with you since its more and more like you will not be making a statement backed up by anything more than your sanctimonious Bible. Your free however to respond to the next part of the series that I am writing in support of Salibi's thesis and the Africa's own traditions. Become versed in the history of the people you are talking about outside of the realm of the book called the Bible and maybe I can discuss these topics with you but right now it looks like your just into making yourself look Biblically informed and not academically inclined.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: [QUOTE] 5.The bible says the Amalekites were in the south. Well, where were the Amelekites located? They were located to the east of Egypt, this is infact, the region you keep referring to (Hijaz). This means that (assuming ‘’Mizram’’ didn’t magically swap again after the Hyksos occupation) the Hebrews were located not in Hijaz, but to the north of both Egypt and Hijaz.
Num 13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites 1 Samuel 15:7 So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt.
Thats 5 points for ya. Good luck
I need to ask why you had the audacity to ignore mostly all the bibliography and scholarly references I gave you and respond with Bible passages while saying you had to rely on words from my mouth. And furthemroe nothing you said was of any substance. How much luck do i need?
Although there is nothing in the Old Testament that refutes what Salibi or Leeman say, like I said I don't rely on Biblical passages to prove historical points, but as an example of what u would be dealing with - I have to answer you again, NO - the original word used was Misrah and Yes the Amlekhu still live to Israel's south in Mahra country of Hadramaut and Oman, as I have mentioned in my other postings WITH HISTORICAL REFERENCES.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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By tradition Amalekites are a south Arabian people who took over Hejaz and later Syria and the African Egypt.
“When the royal authority of 'Ad was wiped out, their brethren, the Thamud, took over. They were succeeded, in turn, by their brethren, the Amalekites. The Amalekites were succeeded by their brethren, the Himyar. The Himyar were succeeded by their brethren, the Tubba's, who belonged to the Himyar. They, likewise, were succeeded, by the Adhwa'. Then, the Mudar came to power.” Muqaddimah 2:21
In Yemenite Islamic texts the Amalekites are still listed as a clan of the Ru'ayn Himyarites living in Yemen.
The Yemen in Early Islam - by Abdul al- Muhsin Mad'aj p. 91.
Colonial administrators and explorers like Robert Gordon Latham mention the Amalek in the 19th century still living with their ancestor tribe of “Ad” in the environs of those they called the Mahri/Mahra/Mahara. In 1859 speaking of the town of Mokalla or Makulla in Hadramaut, Latham wrote - “…the tribes further to the east are those of Mahara, Ad and Amelik” (See Latham’s, Descriptive Ethnology Vol. II London, p. 83.)
These people have probably never set foot in Syria although some of their descendants apparently colonized the area becoming the Hyksos of Egyptian history.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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