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Author Topic: AFRO-ASIATIC DNA of the Ancient Egyptians
the lioness,
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http://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/dna-diversity-in-egypt-amongst-mtdna-haplogroup-l/

Dna Diversity Indigenous Egyptians at Gurna-Luxor contd..
Northern Egyptians are a bit more cosmopolitan in their ancestry 64.8% indigenous with Y-Haplogroup E family.
About 20% of the Y chrom0somes are Near Eastern in Origin, and 10.5 % are Haplogroup R , Y- chromosomes. However, some of these Near Eastern and European Y chromosomes show an ancient entry to Africa (G, K2, R1a, R1b are 8,000 B.P. and older) and any historical contribution from foreign men is more likely to be in the 15% area. Divided by two (no recent female contribution to speak of). This makes non-dynastic Egyptian population around the 7% mark in Lower Egypt; and only some of this is Arab.
The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) Diversity of 58 individuals from
Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna,
Whose population has an Ancient Cultural History, Were studied by sequencing The Control-Region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers.
This Sedentary Population:
(meaning= inhabiting the same location through out life, non nomadic)
Presented similarities to the Ethiopian Population by the
Haplogroups L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the
West Eurasian component (defined by Haplogroups H to K and T to X) and Particularly by a High frequency (17.6%) of Afri-Asiatic Haplogroup M1.
Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity from Upper Egypt (Gurna)sedentary population …
As for the maternal (mother’s) inheritance; this is more varied. From a study at Gurna
(of modern Upper Egyptians): Haplogroups;
H 14.7%, I 5.9%, J 5.9%, L0a* 11.1%, L1* 4.9%, L2a1* 20%,
L3* 11.0%, M1 14.9%, N1b 8.8%, T 5.9%, U 8.8%, L2* 2.0%
U4 5.9%, U6 2.9%, L3e* 4.0%, L3b* 1.9%, L1c* 1.0%
L2b* 2.0%. L1b* 4.9%, L3f*6.9%. L3d*1.0%.
Percentages above are based on mtdna frequencies of
Southern Upper Egypt/Nile Valley collectively..
Percentages below are based on mtdna frequency in
Northern Alexandria/Lower Egypt ( Saunier July 2008)..
The Breakdown is predominantly European 67.5% followed by African @ 20.6% and Asian @ 11.9%.
European: R0 and subgroups (31.4%), I (3.2%), J (7.6%), K (4.7%), T (9.4%), U (9.0%), W (0.7%) X (1.4%)
African Haplogroups: L0 (2.2%), L1 (2.5%), L2 (3.6%) and L3 (12.3%)..
Asiatic Haplogroups: M (6.9%) and N (5.1%)
Results:
The Egyptian Population Data set has a Low Random Match Probability..
The Egyptian Population also shows a Large number of Unique Haplotypes,
Therefore indicating a High mtDna Diversity within the Country…
Overall 238 different haplotypes were defined by 228 variable positions.
Of the 238 different Haplotypes, 31 were shared within the database of 277 individuals.
The Haplotype most common in this dataset was observed in five individuals…
There were 17 points of Heteroplasmy identified in 15 individuals (5.4% of the database)
At 16 positions: One Sample indicated three positions of point heteroplasmy>
(16519, 73 and 195)…
Other remarks: Egypt is distinctive Bio-geographically, as it is centrally located,
Among three surrounding continents its home Africa, Asia and Europe..
(which group belongs to your mother ? )…..
Of these, The L haplotypes are Nilotic and Indigenous and are typically Supra and sub Saharan..
Haplogroup L2a (mtDNA) has notable frequencies of 22% among the
Hebrew Affiliated Fulani of Nile Valley to Niger to The Gambia
They are at least 70,000-111,100 B.P. The Oldest in Egypt !!
L2a1 also has (49%) MtDna collectively in,
Sudan, Nile- Valley/Nubia, Ethiopia, and Egypt
(from the White Nile to the Blue Nile)..
(the Nile Valley Civilizations)……
L2a is also in the Great Rift Valley regions @
16% Kenya/Sudan and 33% in Mozambique.
Today, the term is most often used to refer to
The Valley of the East African Rift,
The divergent plate boundary which extends from
The Afar Triple Junction southward
Across Eastern Africa, and is in the process of splitting
The African Plate into two new separate plates.
Geologists generally refer to these incipient plates as
The Nubian and Somalian subplates or protoplates.
As for haplogroups M1 and U, they are African/Westasian/Eurasian haplotypes, at 30,000 B.P.
Other West-asian/Eur-asian, Haplotypes have been found in 12,000 year old bones in Morocco.
Haplogroups N and I Mtdna are possibly attributable to Arab ancestry, about 15% non-Arab in upper Egypt. But still, most of that would easily be attributable to the Neolithic input from “AsiA” very little of this would be attributable to Arabs.
To sum up, there doesn’t seem to be majority ‘Arab’ genetic component to the Egyptian DNA pool, 20% absolute maximum. A lot of the non African DNA is traceable to the Neolithic farming expansion that swept across North Africa, so it would be a lot lower in reality.
In upper Egypt a maximum of 20% of the Y chromosomes are Non –African.
{My Mother’s mtDNA L2a1 has been shown to be prevalent in North Africa }..
{Since the Dynastic times, of Ethiopian-Nubian and Egyptian Kingdoms} …..
So how these people are supposed to have “Magically Changed” appearance in the past few thousand
years with so little foreign input I’d like to know…
Egyptians are Indigenous “African-Egyptian”, Not Euro/Arabs.. They are in essence “African-Arabs”.
They are part African/Asiatics: (Hamito-Semitic) and are members of
The Nile Valley and the Great Rift Valley , which could be equally known as
The East African Rift , Nile Valley Civilizations…
(“Nile Valley, “North Africa”, “Horn of Africa” and “West Asian Arab Africans”.)
{copy and paste national geographic link on egyptian mummies and dna}
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080606-egypt-mummies.html
An important influence on the subsequent genetic landscape
Of the continent is likely to have been the LGM.
Paleovegetational studies have indicated that, between 30,000 and 11,000 years ago,
Much of the continent was extremely arid (Adams and Faure 1997).
The Sahara advanced hundreds of kilometers further south, and the Equatorial Rainforests
Were reduced to a small fraction of their present size, leaving open woodland and savanna in much of the Congo basin.
This may have formed a refuge area from which modern humans later dispersed:
Some with haplogroup L2a East and West, with L1b west;
Perhaps even some with L1a East and L1d Southward.
The origins of these expansions may lie earlier,
At the beginnings of the Later Stone Age, ~40,000 years ago.
The distributions and ages of L1a, L1c/L3e, and L1d testify to the habitation of East, and Central, and southern Africa, respectively, by modern humans, ~40,000 years ago.
Similarly, L1b, L3b, and L3d imply that West Africa has been inhabited since at least 20,000–30,000 years ago.
Haplogroup L1b is concentrated in West Africa, with some overflow into Central and North Africa
(particularly geographically adjacent areas, connected by the West African coastal pathway)
but little in East, southeastern, or southern Africa.
It is also common in so called African Americans
(~27% of all L1b-types in the database)
By contrast, the commoner haplogroup L3b (fig. 8c) is predominantly West African,
with a substantial representation again in today’s socalled African Americans.
It has also spilled over into North Africa and on into the Near East as well.
And Its sister clade, Haplogroup L3d (fig. 9a), is also mainly West African and African American.
A number of types are found in SouthEastern Africa, including one type (in L3d1), matching a Fulbe/Fulani lineage,
At considerable elevated Frequencies.
Finally, there are two small sister clades, L3e3 and L3e4.
L3e3 is primarily West African,But with its root type present at elevated frequency in the
Southeast and with some southeastern African derivatives. There is also a Kenyan/Kikuyu derivative,
Again raising a possible connection with the Eastern stream.
L3e4 is present in East, Central, and West Africa, with One individual in the Southeast,
But is too rare to draw conclusions from.
HAPLOGROUP L2A:
Haplogroup L2a is Nilotic and the most common and widely distributed sub- Saharan African Haplogroup and is also frequent in the Americas (~19%).
The wide distribution of L2a in Africa makes identifying geographical origins of lineages difficult.
(Excerpt from: The African Diaspora: Mitochondrial DNA and the Atlantic Slave Trade)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/articles/PMC1182259/
The Main Puzzle is the almost Ubiquitous Haplogroup L2a,
Which we suggest may have become”Prevalent “somewhere in
North-Central Africa { Prehistoric Central North Africa }
Spreading East and West along the Sahel, during the Last Glacial Period or some what earlier..
Example: Modern day Sahel, Tunisia near Libya and Algeria..
Note: The Jerba Islands of Tunisia/Carthage is located in South Eastern Tunisia,
Tunisia, is inhabited by four ethnic groups: Berbers, Arabs, sub-Saharans, and Jews/Hebrews.
(click link below for isolated Sub/Supra Saharan mtdna of jerba/tunisia)
Isolated Haplogroups of Jerba Island Tunisia: L1b, L2a1, L2a1c1, L2d2, L3b, L3b1, L3e1a, L3f, M and U
The Island of Jerba/Tunisia is said to be Inhabited First, by the Descendants of the Mousterian Population
Between the 5th and 6th Millienia B.C. (Tlatli, 1967), Who were later replaced by Berbers of the Ketama
and Lemata tribes ( Khaldoun 1852).
The First Arab settlement on the Island Occurred in the 7th Century A.D.
PCR AMPLIFICATIONS:
PCR amplification of (a) 27 selected NumtS in 4 healthy subjects from
Different ethnic groups ex.. L2a1-c1/16086C in (North Africa) Figure 2
Costa‘s link to mtDna diversity of Tunisia
BioMed Central | Full text | The RHNumtS compilation: North Africa L2a1c1…
Mitochondrial DNA Heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.pdf
Tunisia’s reproductive mtDna groups Isolates on Jerba Island.pdf
RootsWeb: GENEALOGY-DNA-L [DNA] mtDNA sequences from Tunisian …
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/Tunisia and Morrocan Haplogroup L
mtDNA Haplogroup L 72.5% diversity in Sudan (East Africa)
Mitochondrial DNA L2a and L3a Variation in Mauritania and Mali
RootsWeb: GENEALOGY-DNA-L [DNA] New Egyptian mtDNA sequences
European Journal of Human Genetics – Table 1 for article: The Canary Islands and North Central/NW Africa…
Haplogroup L2a has frequencies of 14% among Algerian Arab/Berbers and
10% among Bil_d al-S_s Morrocan Arab/Berbers in
The Sousse Valley North Africa..
We recognize, however, that the origins of these haplogroups may be more ancient than we can trace
(L2, for example, may be well >70,000 years old )….. and that, in such cases,
evidence of the earlier distribution of these clusters may have been erased by subsequent demographic processe.
We have attempted partly to disentangle the structure of L2a, retaining as irreducible on present evidence three major squares close to the root of the cluster. These reticulations link eight main clusters by single-step mutations.
We assume that the main reticulations of the network are due to the existence of rapid transitions at positions 16189 and 16192
(Howell et al. 2000), which approach saturation due to the high time depth of African lineages.
We also assume that position 16309 is more stable than the two known fast sites and therefore is not responsible for the main reticulations.
On these grounds, clusters Éø1-Éø2-Éø3, as well as É¿1-É¿2-É¿3, might be collapsed into two main clusters,
One of them with the basal motif of “(L2a)” and the other harboring the transition at “16309Åç (L2a1).
Several instances in which 16309 must nevertheless evolve in parallel can then be read off the network …..
Full report link below on genetic mtdna migrations:
Haplogroup L2a can be further divided into L2a1, harboring the transition at 16309 (Salas et al. 2002).
The most extensive pan-African haplotype
(16189 16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the L2a1 haplogroup.
This sequence is also observed in West Africa among the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in
North Africa among the Maure, Hausa, Fulbe, Tuaregs , Hebrews and others; in
Central Africa among the Bamileke, Fali, and others; in South Africa among the
Khoisan family including the Khwe and Bantu speakers; and in
East Africa among the Kenyan/Kikuyu. Closely related variants are observed among
The Tuareg in North and West Africa and among the
East African Dinka of Sudan and Eastern Somalians. (Ely et. al. 2006; Watson et al. 1997).
A compliation 0f 185 mtDNAs sampled across North Africa showed that about Half of the
Lineages belonged to the L Haplogroups otherwised observed mainly in Sub-Saharan Africa
And that mosy of the rest fell into Haplogroup U6 (Sala et al. 2002) Which perhaps Originated
In the Near East and Spread into North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA) (Maca-Meyer et. al. 2003).
HAPLOGROUP L2a
Macro-haplogroup L Family (mtDNA) – Wikipedia
PhyloTree.org | sub-haplogroup |Haplogroup L
The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape
Comparison of Craniofacial features of African-Asiatic Human Groups.
Evidence of the Early Penetration of socalled Negroes in Prehistoric Egypt”
Click link for Origin Date of mtDna>{TB5}
L1b 30,550 (16,250) B.P.
L2a 55,150 (19,350) B.P.
L2a1 33,700 (13,400) B.P.
L2d 121,900 (34,200) B.P.
L3e 49,250 (11,750) B.P.
L3e1a 26,750 (12,000) B.P.
L3e1 32,150 (11,450) B.P.
L3b 21,600 (6,850) B.P.
L1c2 44,100 (10,650) B.P.
L3d 30,250 (8,450) B.P.
L3f 36,300 (12,800) B.P.

University College London 2004. mtdna study..
According to the profile of West African Dna study, on
Nilotic – Haplogroup L2a
The Percentages clearly shows an clear Eastern Distribution:
Eastern Africa 82%,

Western African 69%,

North-West African 27%,

South Africans 3% Kung Khwe

As well as Cabo Verde Islands 20% and
Fulani people from East-West, Central and North Africa at 22%
Chart on pg.5 (click counter clock-wise to view)
Shows Sahara, Horn of Africa and Congo regions as Well as Krings 1999. Nile Valley mtdna% ....
Click Link below:
http://www.africandna.com/ScienPapers/MtDNA_Profile_of_Wes
North Africans tend to cluster with West Africans, suggesting that the sub-Saharan component of
North Africans Originates primarily from West rather than East Africa
(as expected, on geographical grounds).
Unlike other North Africans, Egyptians are closer to East Africans
than to West Africans. [Rando et al. 1999].)
PC2 has a large contribution from the Eastern lineage groups L3g and L3*;
However L2a, L1b1a, and L3e2* also make a similar contribution.
And though Egypt in the North as well, Egyptians tend to Genetically cluster with East Africans
mtDna Lineages of Ethiopians, Egyptians and Hebrew Yemenis, Populations MDS plot (fig.3)
Clustered together with the Egyptian Population…
In between the Near Eastern and West African as well as Southern African Clusters.
It is interesting that both Semitic and Cushitic Speaking Populations of Ethiopia,
Were close to each other and did not reveal significant differences…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/

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Doctoris Scientia
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The newly uncovered Y-DNA clade, given the moniker of 'IJK' at the moment, is defined by UEPs designated as S137 (L15) and S138 (L16) at rs9786139 and rs9786714 respectively.

* The isogg.org site recently provided additional locus information, in the form of L69.1/S163.1:

L69.1/S163.1 is shown as L69(=G) in IJK. L69/S163 appears in multiple locations. - isogg.org

And adds that:

The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe. The J branch subsequently split again and contributed to the current North African population... - Courtesy of isogg.org

For its part, the International Society of Genetic Genealogy doesn't inform us on its website of either by whom or what circumstances were involved in the study responsible for the finding; rather, said finding was supposedly brought to attention by way of private communication [see: isogg.org]

Does this clade say anything about haplogroup K (M9), and add anything to either of the two probable scenarios provided earlier here about clade R1*-M173 origins [which recalling, was either African or "Southwest Asian"]?

Unfortunately, everything that is publicly known about this clade at the moment has been outlined above.

Notwithstanding this, what the mere announcement of clade IJK indicates, is the strong possibility of Hg K being part of the male gene pool involved in the earliest peopling events of Europe and "south western Asia" by anatomically modern humans, before either clade I or R came about and thereafter become noticeable and/or dominant in the region. This would have been anywhere between ca. 40,000 and 35,000 years ago, and would likely have been the case, regardless of where clade IJK originated.

Wherever clade IJK emerged, be it in the vicinity of southern Asia or the Great African Rift Valley areas, it appears that the expansion of the lineage occurred in the latter general region, on either side of the Red Sea. The downstream markers of this lineage, R1* in particular, show a general geographical structuring wherein clade R1b is heavily scattered on western Europe, while the clade R1a sibling is more widely dispersed as one moves eastward. As unique case, clade R1*-M173 is thus far more widely distributed on the African continent, with the remainder being found in isolated cases in the so-called "Near East" [Jordan Dead Sea area and Oman in particular]. Clade I is more widely dispersed in western Europe, while clade J in the so-called "Near East", followed by Northern Africa. The K clade seems to be relatively more concentrated on the Great Rift Valley geographical confines, with highest frequencies showing up in certain eastern African areas, particularly in the African Horn, followed by certain areas in the so-called "Near Eastern" half of the Great Rift Valley. The overall picture here is one, where it seems that clade IJK reached its expansion peak in the Great Rift Valley region, regardless of where the lineage ultimately emerged, with portions of it spilling over to nearby areas. It is highly likely in this region, the Great Rift Valley, that clades I, J, and K split.

It's plausible that clades I (M170, M258, P212, P38, P19, U179) and J (12f2.1, M304, S35, S34, S6) diverged in the northern areas of the Levant, with clade I shortly after, spreading westward into western Europe, while clade J largely remaining largely localized then and expanding in situ. From several works, it appears that the J2 (M172) clade emerged first, and then later, J1 (M267) [See Ekins et al., An Updated Worldwide Characterization of the Cohen Modal Haplotype; and Nebel et al. 2001, The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East]; the former likely emerged in the confines of the more northerly area of the Levant, while the latter, likely in a more southwardly region of the Levant [see Nebel et al. 2001]. According to Ekins et al., the bearing of the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) STRs locus in the divergent clades of J2 and J1 implies that perhaps a derived haplotype cluster fundamental to CMH emerged some time before the divergence of either J2 and J1 from a shared ancestral lineage...

It is possible that the originally defined CMH represents a slight permutation of a more general Middle Eastern type that was established early on in the population prior to the divergence of haplogroup J. Under such conditions, parallel convergence in divergent clades to the same STR haplotype would be possible. - Ekins et al.

Could such a candidate clade have been a "IJ" (M429, S2, P129, P127, P126, P125, P124, P123) clade, or a derivative of "IJ" that has largely drifted out since? Worth pondering. Recently a possible east African origin, as one of the two possible scenarios, for haplogroup J1-M267 DYS458.2 allelic variant had been explored [See "Could Y-DNA J-M267 possibly have an African Origin? Taking a look at the DYS458.2 Locus"]. It is yet another indication of the richness of IJK subclades in the Great Rift Valley neighborhood.


Clade K on the other hand, could have diverged in the northeastern Africa vestiges [including Sinai, for example] or the nearby areas in the Levant, but it need not necessarily have diverged in the same area as clade I or J. However, some clade K carriers who were situated in the so-called "Near Eastern" areas may well have at some point early on, as noted above, i.e ~ 40 ky ago or so, dispersed into Europe, representing one of the earliest male Y-DNA lineages in that region, around the said time frame. These though, were likely modest in numbers, relative to clade K bearers in say, the so-called "Near East" or Eastern Africa on the African Rift.

Given the distribution patterns noted, it seems plausible that somewhere along expansion events of clade K bearers, the few that made their way to central Asia, somewhere around where the modern nation of Afghanistan [or neighboring regions to its north thereof] lies, the clade P (M45) emerged or else simply reached its peak expansion [albeit limited] in that area, in what could possibly be characterized in a founder effect scenario. This though as just noted, does not negate the emergence of clade P in the Great Rift Valley, whether it's on the northeastern African vestiges or the Levantine areas. It appears that the clade P-bearing populations were likely dispersed in modest effective population sizes in many of the places they were situated. If clade P emerged in central Asia, as noted in one scenario above, then in its westward flow into the Great Rift Valley [actually a piece of Africa] must have spurred clade R1*-M173 somewhere in the latter region. On the other hand, clade P's emergence in the Rift Valley regions would simply mean that amongst those clade P-carriers who remained localized, clade R1*-M173 emerged, wherein it would quickly start spreading deeper into Africa and areas nearby Africa, likely amongst a nomadic-life style oriented group. In either scenario, those clade P-carriers who made it to central Asia, would become the basis for the downstream clade Q (M242). The newly emergent clade Q carriers would disperse, with sections notably taking the Siberian corridor route. These latter group would become ancestors of some of early American settlers, likely the wave that followed the relatively early "tropical" elements that arrived in America in the late Upper Paleolithic.

Then comes the LGM [Last Glacial Maximum]. By then of course, its highly likely that some clade R1*-M173 carriers from the Great Rift valley region made their way westward into western Europe by way of the Asian Minor corridor. Like their clade K fore-bearers, these initial migrant would have likely represented fairly modest effective population sizes in Upper Paleolithic Europe, but this would change with the receding of the LGM. During the LGM, several populations in the northern latitudes, namely in Europe, sought refuge in certain refuge centers. It appear there was one in southwestern Europe [Iberian peninsula region in particular] and the others in the Asian Minor region [see: Cinnioglu et al. for example] and eastern Europe [vicinity of Russia]. The subclade R1b itself seems to have emerged before the LGM, but was initially modestly distributed in Europe. Some of these clade R1b bearers seem to have found their way to these refuge centers, from where, many would disperse across Europe, upon the recession of the LGM, with the clade reaching its expansion peak in western Europe. Others of course, dispersed to regions nearby the refuge centers. [See: "R1*-M173 bearing chromosomes in Cameroon" for further reading]

The clade R1a (M17) seems to have largely come to the scene as another possible after-effect of the LGM dispersal events, involving mutation amongst remnant R1*-M173 bearers who did not bear the R1b signature markers, including namely M343. From the distribution pattern of this R1 subclade, it appears that the center of [even if not actual point of origin, which is not ruled out either] that dispersal was somewhere likely where the modern state of Iran now lies [perhaps via the northwestern region of Iran, if for example, either the "Ukranian LGM refugium" or the "Asian Minor LGM refugium" model is considered, but also, and more importantly, predicated on the idea that ancestral R1*-M173 arrived from westward, the Great Rift Valley region in particular via its associated so-called "Fertile Crescent" and/or Levantine areas. The alternative would be, as others have suggested, surrounding regions — vis-a-vis Iran — like northern areas of Pakistan, India or thereof]. From there, clade R1a bearers would flow further east, but also moving further southward, into southern Asia, if R1a is presumed to have a western Asian provenance. On the other hand, again, it would flow from the Iranian region into Europe via the Asian minor and its eastern surrounding areas thereof. Perhaps, some visual aids are in order, to provide clarity; let's take a look at distribution maps located easily accessible so-called "encyclopedic" websites and elsewhere on the net...

 -

The substantive basis of this distribution map (click for hi res) isn't clear, but it seems to corroborated to some extent by the one below (click for hi res) ...

 -

Note that the top distribution map shows *exclusive* presence of R1a clade in southern Asia, which would tend to lend some support to the introduction of R1a clade bearers into Iran from nearby regions in say, Pakistan or India, from R1*-M173 clade carriers who arrived from the so-called "Near East". Under such a scenario, it's plausible that the marker spread northward via central Asia and then onto eastern Europe, from where it would spread further west, or could have involved a bi-directional-pronged movement, one via 'southwestern" corridor, and one via the central Asian one. The question then becomes, what could have sparked such major demographic processes. It is less likely to have involved a LGM in southern Asia (for which we have information on the "Near Eastern" and "European" counterparts), unless information is brought to the fore about such a situation. Then again, as noted, it could be said that shortly after arrival from or emergence in "southwestern Asia" [likely via the Iranian region], R1a clade bearers quickly situated in southern Asia, where they would expand. This would mean that the ancestral R1a* clade bearers started out nomadic [perhaps indicated by mtDNA distribution pattern; according to Richards et al. 2000, Europeans shared few clades with populations rich in R1a clade within south Asia — like India, and eastward, like Siberia. See below, Ref *], with a portion, if not much of it, of the ancestral R1a* clade bearers quickly situating themselves in southern Asia. This would have entailed what is dubbed as a "founder effect" scenario, which would explain virtual absence of R1b markers, which if were present in the midst of the R1a* clade bearing group, must have largely drifted out. From the said map, R1b clade frequency is relatively low even in the Iranian region, and its visibly starts to fade away as one moves eastward. With the so-called "Near East" closer to Europe, it is not surprising to see some dispersal of R1b markers therein, which could have involved independent demographic expansions [in association with a "Near Eastern" LGM refugia — as that implicated in Anatolia for example; again see: "R1*-M173 bearing chromosomes in Cameroon" for further reading] from that of R1a* clade carriers. Another caveat: If R1a* emergence occurred somewhere along the dispersal path, somewhere in the neighborhood of Iran or surrounding territories, from a migratory origin point in the more westward "Near Eastern" refugia locations, which as noted, could have involved parts of the Asian Minor, then it is conceivable that a few R1a* clade bearers moved northwestward via the "Asian Minor" corridor and some possibly through the Caucasus, while others dispersed south and a little eastward, from where they'll further disperse northward into central Asia and beyond thereof.

Ref * [for clarity for the above, as noted]: From Richards et al. 2000, Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool...

Table 1 shows frequencies and age estimates of the main mtDNA haplogroups that occur in the Near East and Europe. These clusters are restricted primarily to Europe and the Near East (western Eurasia). Western-Eurasian lineages are found at moderate frequencies as far east as central Asia (Comas et al. 1998) and are found at low frequencies in both India (Kivisild et al. 1999a) and Siberia (Torroni et al. 1998), but, in these cases, only restricted subsets of the western-Eurasian haplogroups have been found, suggesting that they are most probably the result of secondary expansions from the core Near Eastern/European zone...

There are even fewer eastern-Eurasian lineages represented, amounting to ∼2% in total: 3 individuals with haplogroup A, 4 with B, 7 with C (or pre-C), 2 with F, 1 from N*, 1 with Y, and 10 additional potential members of the eastern-Eurasian haplogroup M, some of which may be D (Torroni et al. 1993b). As in the case of Africa, these are probably attributable to fairly recent gene flow. Most of them would imply incursions from central/eastern Asia, and their occurrence in Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, and the Caucasus, as well as in both the Saami and northeastern Europe, implies that they may be the result of historically attested migrations into these areas.

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Doctoris Scientia

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When I actually read the above, instead of an untampered study, the above is nothing short of a rant from a confused individual... for example Habrew affiliated Fulanis and Western Asian Africans. LOL.

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Doctoris Scientia

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Djehuti
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^ Indeed, but that's what you get when you have scientifically illiterate folks flouting science, in this case genetics. [Embarrassed]

When people ignore the fact that Eurasian genetics are a small subgroup of African genetics, they can concoct anything regarding populations in Africa. This is why you have this new fiasco in regards to West Africans who carry R1 (both derived and underived) lineages. Now you have Euronuts claiming Bantus are also Eurasian mixed. [Big Grin]

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Doctoris Scientia
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Indeed, but that what you get when you have scientifically illiterate folks flouting science, in this case genetics. [Embarrassed]

When people ignore the fact that Eurasian genetics are a small subgroup of African genetics, they can concoct anything regarding populations in Africa. This is why you have this new fiasco in regards to West Africans who carry R1 (both derived and underived) lineages. Now you have Euronuts claiming Bantus are also Eurasian mixed. [Big Grin]

LOL, exactly.

We've already established that East Africans and other closely related populations are intermediate between non-Africans and other Africans... not exactly centrally in-between the two populations, much more closer to the other Africans then non-Africans in question, but still noticeably intermediate. This in-between position also has nothing to do with admixture. So why would it be surprising that modern day East Africans, the local descendants of the OOA migrants, along with lineages which are shared betwen them and other Africans due to a common ancestor, also carry "ancestral" haplogroups which are found among non-Africans in more "downstream" forms. For example M1, N, IJK, R* etc. And even if it was due to "back-migration", these returnees would still have been African... there isn't a laser which separate’s "Southwest Asia" from the African continent. These so called "Eurasians" would have been Africans who would have had been moving back and forth between North Africa and the Levant/Southwest Asia.

Some people simply enjoy being ignorant.

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Djehuti
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^ Of course, and in the meantime these same folks NEVER want to confront African admixture in Southwest Asia and Europe.

It was Sforza who first pointed out that overall Europeans were 2/3s Eurasian but 1/3 African. Foolish opponents desperately try to argue that this is wrong because it is based on racialist models like Bowcock or Coon, but the FACT of the matter is that it is based on modern population genetics. Which is why people like Keita and Luis agree with Sforza's assessment which is based on findings like the below:

 -

More on Southwest Asia coming up...

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Indeed, but that's what you get when you have scientifically illiterate folks flouting science, in this case genetics. [Embarrassed]

When people ignore the fact that Eurasian genetics are a small subgroup of African genetics, they can concoct anything regarding populations in Africa. This is why you have this new fiasco in regards to West Africans who carry R1 (both derived and underived) lineages. Now you have Euronuts claiming Bantus are also Eurasian mixed. [Big Grin]

No, mentally challenged one, they are CORRECTLY making the point that "R" is an AFRICAN linage. Not derived, not backtracked.

To anyone with half a brain this makes perfect sense i.e. if man is African then Man's genes must also be African.

haplogroup "R"
This haplogroup is believed to have arisen around 26,800 years ago, somewhere in Central Asia or South Asia, where its ancestor Haplogroup P is most often found at polymorphic frequencies. Cambridge University geneticist Kivisild et al. (2003) suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup:

To an INTELLIGENT Human, the words "BELIEVED" and "SUGGESTS" means "WE DON'T KNOW".

But it is no wonder that one who would spend years posting pictures of Scandinavian Albinos without even realizing that they were Albinos; Would find this hard to understand.

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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
this is wrong because it is based on racialist models like Bowcock or Coon,

Congratulations, you are improving.
quote:
but the FACT of the matter is that it is based on modern population genetics.
Oops, spoke too soon. The fractions came from samples chosen by Sforza based on a Coonian template.
quote:
Which is why people like Keita ... agree with Sforza's assessment
Nope, wrong again.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Indeed, but that what you get when you have scientifically illiterate folks flouting science, in this case genetics. [Embarrassed]

When people ignore the fact that Eurasian genetics are a small subgroup of African genetics, they can concoct anything regarding populations in Africa. This is why you have this new fiasco in regards to West Africans who carry R1 (both derived and underived) lineages. Now you have Euronuts claiming Bantus are also Eurasian mixed. [Big Grin]

LOL, exactly.

We've already established that East Africans and other closely related populations are intermediate between non-Africans and other Africans... not exactly centrally in-between the two populations, much more closer to the other Africans then non-Africans in question, but still noticeably intermediate. This in-between position also has nothing to do with admixture. So why would it be surprising that modern day East Africans, the local descendants of the OOA migrants, along with lineages which are shared betwen them and other Africans due to a common ancestor, also carry "ancestral" haplogroups which are found among non-Africans in more "downstream" forms. For example M1, N, IJK, R* etc. And even if it was due to "back-migration", these returnees would still have been African... there isn't a laser which separate’s "Southwest Asia" from the African continent. These so called "Eurasians" would have been Africans who would have had been moving back and forth between North Africa and the Levant/Southwest Asia.

Some people simply enjoy being ignorant.

I'm confused by this statement. You have referred an East African as being "intermediate" between an African and a non-African and you are saying it has nothing to do with admixture from Asia.
Then you attribute it to "moving back and forth".
From where? You say between the Levant/Southwest Asia.
So if an African goes into the Levant/Southwest Asia eventually they become Asian or semi-Asian.
Then they go back into East Africa and mingle with the East Africans and the East Africans become intermediate.
This is describing and admixture between people who had become semi-Asian and East Africans.
There is a mixture going on by what you describe "back and forth" from where?
Asia, This is what you said
even if you don't like to call it an "admixture".

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Doctoris Scientia
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quote:
Originally posted by the lion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Indeed, but that what you get when you have scientifically illiterate folks flouting science, in this case genetics. [Embarrassed]

When people ignore the fact that Eurasian genetics are a small subgroup of African genetics, they can concoct anything regarding populations in Africa. This is why you have this new fiasco in regards to West Africans who carry R1 (both derived and underived) lineages. Now you have Euronuts claiming Bantus are also Eurasian mixed. [Big Grin]

LOL, exactly.

We've already established that East Africans and other closely related populations are intermediate between non-Africans and other Africans... not exactly centrally in-between the two populations, much more closer to the other Africans then non-Africans in question, but still noticeably intermediate. This in-between position also has nothing to do with admixture. So why would it be surprising that modern day East Africans, the local descendants of the OOA migrants, along with lineages which are shared between them and other Africans due to a common ancestor, also carry "ancestral" haplogroups which are found among non-Africans in more "downstream" forms. For example M1, N, IJK, R* etc. And even if it was due to "back-migration", these returnees would still have been African... there isn't a laser which separate’s "Southwest Asia" from the African continent. These so called "Eurasians" would have been Africans who would have had been moving back and forth between North Africa and the Levant/Southwest Asia.

Some people simply enjoy being ignorant.

I'm confused by this statement. You have referred an East African as being "intermediate" between an African and a non-African and you are saying it has nothing to do with admixture from Asia.
Then you attribute it to "moving back and forth".
From where? You say between the Levant/Southwest Asia.
So if an African goes into the Levant/Southwest Asia eventually they become Asian or semi-Asian.
Then they go back into East Africa and mingle with the East Africans and the East Africans become intermediate.
This is describing and admixture between people who had become semi-Asian and East Africans.
There is a mixture going on by what you describe "back and forth" from where?
Asia, This is what you said
even if you don't like to call it an "admixture".

No your obviously confused, East Africans and other affiliated Africans are intermediate between non-Africans and some other Africans, in due part because of one) East Africans are the local descendants of the OOA, and 2) in regard to Western Eurasians, their has been even more recent gene-flow from East Africa into the Western Eurasian gene-pool, i.e. therefore explaining why Europeans and Southwest Asians cluster closer to Africans of all sort, while East Asians and other non-Africans remain relatively distant.

The Africans which left Africa to populate the rest of the world would have been of local East African ancestry, therefore non-Africans are going to be more related to East Africans then they are to other Africans. And when I say intermediate, East Africans cluster much more closer to other Africans then they do to non-Africans, but it's still noticeable.

For example, If I have a brother, and my brother has a son. My brother would be genetically linked to both his son and I, without him being half his son or the other way around.

It's the exact same thing, East Africans and other Africans share a common ancestor; non-Africans descend from a group of East Africans, therefore if grouped all together East Africans are intermediate between other Africans and non-Africans.

The non-African input into East Africa is less than 5% according to uniparental ancestry, the best devise in pin-pointing exact ancestral origins of a group or people. For example, the Beja are less than 5% non-African according to their unparental origins, therefore other East Africans other then the Amhara who group closer to the Beja have a much lesser non-African input.

There's a picture which shows the intermediate slight divergence between other Africans, East Africans, and recent "mixed" North Africans. Other then the North Africans to an extent, the differences among Africans is mainly due to the old age of the African population and the East African origin of non-Africans. It has nothing to do with admixture, except in the case of the few coastal North African samples.

As you can see even the Khoisan cluster a bit further from other Africans, but are they "mixed"...hell no.

Note: Western Eurasians are at minimum 1/3 recent African, that being Europeans...Southwest Asians I would suspect to be even more then just 1/3, due to post-OOA migrations from East Africa... therefore another reason why Western Eurasians cluster closer to Africans, in particular East Africans. With Western Eurasians being "mixed", not the other way around.

As I've previously stated:
"East Africans and other closely related populations are intermediate between non-Africans and other Africans... not exactly centrally in-between the two populations, much more closer to the other Africans then non-Africans in question, but still noticeably intermediate."

" These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopian Jews and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow. The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999)."
[Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus: Implications for Modern Human Origins. Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]"

First off, there's nothing that separates Africa from "Southwest Asia", and to an extent "Southwest Asia" is an extension of the African continent.

For example, populations who straddled the Levant and North Africa, would have been essentially the same people, the fact that these people were moving back and forth breaks away any theory like yours which suggest that people became "semi-African" or what have you, from simply leaving Africa. These people in the Levant and Southwest Asia in question were receiving a continuous biological gene-flow from the African continent, they were not isolated, therefore unable to diverge from people in Africa, genetically. For example, biological divergence in Central Asia which supplied people to Europe, Southwest/Southern Asia, and East Asia. Therefore these people would not have donated "admixture".

If an African male marries a women from Syria who is of direct African descent several thousand years back (but with some continuous gene-flow from Africa, i.e. not isolated), this would not donate admixture.

The Yemeni Hadhramaut and Socotra population is physically and biologically related to populations in East Africa, but they've been living in "Southwest Asia" for just as long as peoples who aren't exactly African in appearance, they haven't become semi-African as you suggest happens. 1) The fact that there largely wholly indigenous to "Southwest Asia", and 2) they haven't been biologically isolated from the African continent... makes it impossible to suggest gene-flow from the above peoples as outside "admixture". This would have been the same for peoples living in the Levant and other parts of Southwest Asia several thousand years ago.

Africans would not have changed from simply moving into Southwest Asia, if they had continued to remain isolated from other non-Africans... they would have been presently recognized as "African" people in both appearance and genetics. The Southwest Asian environment is to similar to Africa to change anything in regard to physical characteristics. It was Central Asian populations which merged with those found in Southwest Asia to create the stereotypical Southwest Asian population we see today.

Streotypical Southwest Asian with pre-historic Central and Southwest Asian ancestry. i.e. mixed.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/71/183313346_a40d675437.jpg?v=0

Wholly indigenous Southwest Asians.

Hadramaut

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kellyphotos/sets/72157603913412055/

Socotra

http://www.domingodelpino.com/camara/documental/images/conguerrilladhofar.jpg
http://www.ctesiphon.com/Images/Arabia-Felix-1932-h.jpg
http://www.arrakeen.ch/yemen/CIMG2630.JPG
http://www.domingodelpino.com/camara/documental/images/conguerrilladhofar1974.jpg
http://www.ctesiphon.com/Images/Arabia-Felix-1932-m.jpg
http://www.ctesiphon.com/Images/Arabia-Felix-1932-d.jpg

First European 30,000 years ago
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/european-head_169813s.jpg

^the Levant/North African population I was referring to lived many thousand years earlier.

"Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "back-flow" to Africa looked like Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003)."

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
So why would it be surprising that modern day East Africans,

were the ancient East Africans intermediate?
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Doctoris Scientia
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:
Originally posted by the lion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
So why would it be surprising that modern day East Africans,

were the ancient East Africans intermediate?
Yes. Also, when I say intermediate, that dosen't = centrally. They still cluster much closer to other Africans, but it's still noticable. The Khoisan are also somewhat intermediate in being that they share with East Africans the deepest known human clades.

This also includes a large chunck of the Nilo-Saahran people, Southeast African, and West African populations, i.e. in regard to Nilo-Saharan=Darfuri and other Sudanese populations. Are they mixed, LOL.

Nilo-Saharan

http://www.lnsart.com/JachCampChiefSudan.jpg
http://www.blackagendareport.com/images/stories/145/DarfurCampJuly1.jpg
http://www.mayanaim.com/travel/Dance/slicemohamedrum.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Anglo-Egyptian_Sudan_Nubian_woman.jpg


Did the people you call "intermediate" become intermediate in Africa?
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Doctoris Scientia
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quote:
Originally posted by the lion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
So why would it be surprising that modern day East Africans,

were the ancient East Africans intermediate?
Yes. Also, when I say intermediate, that dosen't = centrally. They still cluster much closer to other Africans, but it's still noticable. The Khoisan are also somewhat intermediate in being that they share with East Africans the deepest known human clades.

This also includes a large chunck of the Nilo-Saharan people, Southeast African, and West African populations, i.e. in regard to Nilo-Saharan=Darfuri and other Sudanese populations. Are they mixed, LOL.

Nilo-Saharan

http://www.lnsart.com/JachCampChiefSudan.jpg
http://www.blackagendareport.com/images/stories/145/DarfurCampJuly1.jpg
http://www.mayanaim.com/travel/Dance/slicemohamedrum.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Anglo-Egyptian_Sudan_Nubian_woman.jpg [/qb][/QUOTE]

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Sundjata
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quote:
were the ancient East Africans intermediate?
OK, people need to really start asking this question. Intermediate between what? Two extremes?

If we mean intermediate between Euros and Africans, well, Euros are intermediate between Africans and east Asians. Do we mean intermediate between SW Asians, who are even closer to Africans than intermediate Europeans? Intermediate between either and a mean of the diversity in Africa, or intermediate between either and some pre-selected group chose to represent all of Africa? What are we discussing here?

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Doctoris Scientia
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:
were the ancient East Africans intermediate?
OK, people need to really start asking this question. Intermediate between what? Two extremes?

If we mean intermediate between Euros and Africans, well, Euros are intermediate between Africans and east Asians. Do we mean intermediate between SW Asians, who are even closer to Africans than intermediate Europeans? Intermediate between either and a mean of the diversity in Africa, or intermediate between either and some pre-selected group chose to represent all of Africa? What are we discussing here?

I'm guessing she's talking about Southwest Asians.
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Djehuti
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It makes perfect sense only to those who are knowledgeable in human evolution as well as rational. Africa is the birthplace of humankind. As such African populations possess the greatest amount of genetic diversity. East Africans in general are only a mere subset of overall continental diversity just like any other African group from other parts of the continent. All Eurasians descend from a small group of East Africans. Therefore East Africans are intermediate between Eurasians and other Africans but that does not mean East Africans are more related to Eurasians than to other Africans whom they share the continent with!
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Interesting.
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