quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Haha - Back to troll mode eh? Can't refute anything, so you turn to the trolls old standby, for those times when even the most accomplished idiot of a troll is speechless. "What you talking bout Willis". Ha ha ha ha
It's tiresome. You and Clyde are dishonest. You say some artifacts are fake or altered, others not completely at random with not a scrap of evidence. It's called lying. Trolling is all you deserve. Yes you have made made trolling necessary, formal logic doesn't work
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: dana marniche - You really need to better vet the sources that you use. The world is full of crack-pots and you just quoted one.
In the future, may I suggest that when you see the word "prognathous" associated with Black people, you run away from that source, because it will surely be racist nonsense.
(An unsettling observation - for some reason, your sources often use that term).
You might also want to look-up the technical terms that they use. In this case you would have found that the term "platyrrhine" (which he spelled incorrectly) refers to a "Broad-Nosed" Monkey. Your source is a scientist - No: A racist ass-hole - Yes! I believe he is a Sand Nigger, but I could not find his Bio. He is not exactly famous.
Please stop insulting people when you are writing to me. Now which crackpot are you talking about.
I pick sources using the word "prognathous" because that is the one word you will rarely see European "scholarship" associating with people of modern European ancestry.
I don't know if you are a person that should be making calling people crackposts and making suggestions to anyone let alone me Michael - with all the hypocrisy in your posts. I am well aware of how anthropologists, use the term platyrrhine and orthagnathic in anthropology having had that AS MY COURSE OF STUDY both academic and independent.
Furthermore - if famous is part of your criteria for "vetting" academics or them being modern Middle Easterner you are really out of it.
No thank you for your advice, Michael. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What does any of this have to do with Natufians??
What was the argument between Kalonji and Mind about again? It's been a while and I haven't had time to follow all of it.
By the way, to Hammer: The early Sumerian remains have been described as "negroid" and especially "Australoid" similar in appearance to blacks of India..
I wonder what the relationship is between the Natufians, the large prognathic Eridu (Obeid or Ubaid) people and similarly Negroid group of the Umm an -Nar east Arabian culture.
One book by Bedrich Hrozny claimed the Ubaid/Obeid people of the Levant and Mesopotamia used Natufian skeletal markings. They must thus have been in part descended from the more robust type of Natufian people.
Umm an Nar was supposed to have a possessed similar physical type to the earlier Ubaid group in eastern Arabia.
Early people of Umm an Nar of Oman is described thusly:
“In particular the enormously large size of the upper and lower jaws and of the mastoid process. They were also tall (171-182 cm), significantly higher than modern Al-Ain inhabitants. All other measurements confirm they were evidently larger in all dimensions than today's population in the same area...The prognathism is very noticeable and the heads are a little narrower, longer, and with some projection of the forehead.” Mahmoud Y. El-Najjar, "An Anthropological Study of Skeletal Remains from Tomb A, Hili North" in AUAE 4, 1985
In addition the author adds - "The 3rd millienium cultures internal floorplans of the Umm-an-Nar tombs with those of the later Kerma royal tumuli with their Ur-style human sacrifices, etc. are intriguing...
The Umm an- Nar are comprable to earlier Obeid/ Ubaid type remains in Arabia. Descriptions are similar: the population being unusally large bodied and prognathous with platyrhine nasal formation.
Ubaid types are said to have been known in early India as well and Umm an Nar culture had some sort of trade with the Indus. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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This guy Marcus a top chef in the U.S. possesses a face typical of many of his people. He is from the Amhara and was adopted from Ethiopia and brought up in Sweden, Snaky's present homeland, according to her original profile.
He has several restaurants in the U.S. and appears on national TV a lot. Apparently he just opened a restaurant in Harlem called Red Rooster, not far from where I spend time - near 125th street. Can't wait to visit it!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: dana marniche - You really need to better vet the sources that you use. The world is full of crack-pots and you just quoted one.
In the future, may I suggest that when you see the word "prognathous" associated with Black people, you run away from that source, because it will surely be racist nonsense.
(An unsettling observation - for some reason, your sources often use that term).
You might also want to look-up the technical terms that they use. In this case you would have found that the term "platyrrhine" (which he spelled incorrectly) refers to a "Broad-Nosed" Monkey. Your source is a scientist - No: A racist ass-hole - Yes! I believe he is a Sand Nigger, but I could not find his Bio. He is not exactly famous.
Please stop insulting people when you are writing to me. Now which crackpot are you talking about.
I pick sources using the word "prognathous" because that is the one word you will rarely see European "scholarship" associating with people of modern European ancestry.
I don't know if you are a person that should be making calling people crackposts and making suggestions to anyone let alone me Michael - with all the hypocrisy in your posts. I am well aware of how anthropologists, use the term platyrrhine and orthagnathic in anthropology having had that AS MY COURSE OF STUDY both academic and independent.
Furthermore - if famous is part of your criteria for "vetting" academics or them being modern Middle Easterner you are really out of it.
No thank you for your advice, Michael.
Dana, just take it with a grain of salt. Mikey is known for disliking any features that set Africans apart from other populations.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Natufians were thought to have been composed of two separate populations both evidently African affiliated. The Kebaran (originally epi-Gravettian people)which has always been said to have been related to Upper Paleolithic Northern Africans -like Mechta Afalou of Egypt and Maghereb or Jebel Sahaba of Nubia, etc and the Mushabians who came in from Africa later and were the gracile type described by Garrod at Shukbah as "Negroid" with attenuated limbs.
The resulting "Natufians" have been described as homogeneous by Francois Ricaut. Brace refers to them as robust.
Apparently both populations coming to make up the Natufian one were African looking people but the question is which one was originally of Central and West African affiliation as opposed to east African affiliation.
Another possibility is that the latter as well as later Levant and Ubaid Mesopotamians (previous to the Chalcolithic when lateral-headed brachycephals enter in small numbers) in fact were derived from the Natufians themselves.
It might explain what is to account for the great prognathism and rather platyyrhine noses of many of the later Ubaid people of Mesopotamia (Eridu) Arabia etc.
There is something missing or enigmatic in the descriptions of Natufians that needs to be delineated more clearly.
Although I am in disagreement about your assertion that the African nature of certain Natufians remains was derived from west and/or central Africans, I would definitely appreciate a direct quote where Garrod said:
and were the gracile type described by Garrod at Shukbah as "Negroid" with attenuated limbs.
And where Brace said:
Brace refers to them as robust.
^To Dana
I think the first quote is in Diop's, African Origins of Civilization, and possibly in the footnotes. Unfortunately I no longer have that book so perhaps someone else can post it.
Coon also says somewhere, "the wide, low vaulted nose, in combination with prognathism, gives a somewhat negroid cast to the face."
Brace describes his Natufian sample as robust here - "In dendrograms such as Fig. 1, the little Natufian sample clusters with the Mesolithic of France, the North African Epipalaeolithic, and the European Upper Palaeolithic, but the lengths of each of these twigs show that the relationships are comparatively remote. These are all Late Pleistocene or very early post-Pleistocene groups, and they are also noticeably more robust than more recent human groups."
Also, "In that run, the Natufian of Israel ties to the French Mesolithic and then to the Afalou/Taforalt sample from North Africa. These then link with the European Upper Palaeolithic sample and, somewhat surprisingly, with the Chandman (the Mongolian Bronze Age sample) and finally, at the next step, with the Danish Neolithic. One of the things that these geographically diverse groups clearly have in common is a degree of robustness that sets them apart from the recent inhabitants of the areas in which they are found."
Found of course in, The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form, 2005.
Lastly, I don't know what to make of your "disagreement" since I never would have asserted something about Natufians "being African due to their having derived from west and/or Central Africans."
I guess I misunderstood you then. What did you mean with the part about West/Central Africans?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
It is Brace that links the findings of the Natufian crania with Benin/Dahomey, etc.
I'm trying to figure out how that linkage was present when he and others say the North African Mesolithic (Mechta Afalou and Capsian etc.) and Neolithic (Naqqada) crania showed little connection with West African types and direct linkage to east Africans.
I am trying to figure out whether it was the Mushabian or the early Kebarans that were originally linked with West and central African types.
We can also ask in fact if the latter were in any way derived from the Natufians. I don't think physical anthropologists have sufficiently answered these questions.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Kalonji - I am just trying to educate ignorant people to the error of their ways.
Take you for instance: can YOU demonstrate a propensity toward prognathism by ANY group of Black people?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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dana I don't see the match, Gudea looks like some short stubby cold adapted dude but Marcus from Ethiopia looks like one of those tall and slender elongated types.
He's a fine ass North African Caucasoid, I mean negroid
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^He he - Nice jab lioness. As long as you girls understand that what you are doing is strictly for laughs, then there is no problem with me. I understand that girls just want to have fun.
As a matter of fact, I at times, envy your innocent simplicity. In your simple world, everything is just as it seems: Those perfect and vibrant tomb paints are just as the ancient Egyptians made them four thousand years ago.
However in the complicated world of Men, we have to understand that when a tomb is closed for renovation, it means just that RENOVATION. And how it looks when work is finished, is totally dependent on how racist the renovators were.
The reason for that dear girl, is because this is what four thousand year-old tombs REALLY look like! (Please note the skin color).
posted
Again, I thought the topic was Natufians not Egyptians or Sumerians or Gutians...
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: He's a fine ass North African Caucasoid, I mean negroid
Freudian slip, or stupid joke. Either way it should occur to you that there is no such thing as "caucasoid" let alone a North African one, and for the obvious reasons.
Chef Marcus Samuelsson above is originally from Ethiopia which is in Sub-Saharan Africa NOT North Africa. Regardless, his features called "caucasoid" which are shared by many populations around the globe have NOTHING to do with the Caucasus or Europe. Thus "caucasoid" features or race is non-existent.
Speaking of which, even Western anthropologists admit that the ancient Egyptians in physical appearance are no different from Ethiopians and judging by Mike's pictures of Ramses above, Ramses likely resembled Marcus.
Here is an Egyptian man from rural Giza who also shares such features.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Nice pics of other parts of Sennedjem's tomb. The other parts that are not commonly shown, but...
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
^ Even the picture above proves nothing as it portrays people with complexions and features that are also found in Sub-Sahara, so whatever her point was by that pic is void.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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this is what the tomb looked like when it was first discovered in 1886.
Painting of Thoth
And from those humble beginnings, we get all of these perfect paintings!
.
Mike are you claiming that the lower wall paintings looked like the above picture when it was discovered in 1886 and that the below wall paintings were repainted since that time?
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It's commonly claimed on this forum that the Natufians of Mesolithic Southwest Asia were a black people of African descent. I don't doubt that they may have had African ancestry, but this paper by Trenton Holliday reports that, while the first modern humans to migrate to Southwest Asia from Africa were tropically adapted, their Natufian descendants became cold-adapted. From the paper:
quote:Natufians also exhibit a somewhat cold-adapted physique, albeit not as extreme as the Neandertals.
This challenges the belief that the Natufians were black, for if these people were really tropically adapted like blacks, why don't their limb proportions show it?
It doesn't challenge anything, Brace even noted that the African and Eurasian influence was nearly equal (even though his charts, distance-wise showed an obviously closer affiliation with SSAs). Nor do I recall the Natufians being "Black" as an established belief that needs to be challenged. They obviously came predominantly from Africa though, based on numerous grounds, including archaeology, botany (fig migration), craniology and geography and language reconstruction.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^There is no such thing as a cold-adapted Human. There are only Humans who have adapted-to-the-cold by adjusting their energy output with metabolism changes.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Djehuti - Don't be mean to the girls, educate them!
lioness, this is the picture that you posted of the Tomb of Sennedjem.
.
But this is what the tomb looked like when it was first discovered in 1886.
Painting of Thoth
Some funerary objects from the tomb: Mummy mask of Khonsu, son of Sennedjem.
And from those humble beginnings, we get all of these perfect paintings!
Funny thing though, Sennedjem's complexion seems to keep changing, depending on the source of the picture. I wonder why that is?
Would you girls care to venture a guess?
Well Michael - I say if - and I repeat if it is true that that is the original tomb of Senedjem that you posted below It is truly a revelation and something I was taught.
However, because of many of your previous postings I will have to wait and see if what you say is not just in your own reality. Perhaps others can confirm those sources that you have posted again - without any references. I do not have time at present to go and research that.
But I look forward to the confirmation as it will just be verification of my own belief that European museums have over the years been repainting over many ancient Egyptian tomb paintings - including Libyans, Amorites etc. and what have you, to their own liking.
Which would of course be in my book be unforgivable.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [IMG]dana I don't see the match, Gudea looks like some short stubby cold adapted dude but Marcus from Ethiopia looks like one of those tall and slender elongated types.
You forgot one thing Snaky - Gudea's representation is a sculptured figurine or statue. He's no more short and stubby than you'd find in one in the Nok culture. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
I guess no one wants to make an attempt to address some of this but I'll try one more time.
"I wonder what the relationship is between the Natufians, the large prognathic Eridu (Obeid or Ubaid) people and similarly Negroid group of the Umm an -Nar east Arabian culture.
One book by Bedrich Hrozny claimed the Ubaid/Obeid people of the Levant and Mesopotamia used Natufian skeletal markings. They must thus have been in part descended from the more robust type of Natufian people.
Umm an Nar was supposed to have a possessed similar physical type to the earlier Ubaid group in eastern Arabia.
Early people of Umm an Nar of Oman is described thusly:
“In particular the enormously large size of the upper and lower jaws and of the mastoid process. They were also tall (171-182 cm), significantly higher than modern Al-Ain inhabitants. All other measurements confirm they were evidently larger in all dimensions than today's population in the same area...The prognathism is very noticeable and the heads are a little narrower, longer, and with some projection of the forehead.” Mahmoud Y. El-Najjar, "An Anthropological Study of Skeletal Remains from Tomb A, Hili North" in AUAE 4, 1985
In addition the author adds - "The 3rd millienium cultures internal floorplans of the Umm-an-Nar tombs with those of the later Kerma royal tumuli with their Ur-style human sacrifices, etc. are intriguing...
The Umm an- Nar are comprable to earlier Obeid/ Ubaid type remains in Arabia. Descriptions are similar: the population being unusally large bodied and prognathous with platyrhine nasal formation.
Ubaid types are said to have been known in early India as well and Umm an Nar culture had some sort of trade with the Indus. "
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [IMG]dana I don't see the match, Gudea looks like some short stubby cold adapted dude but Marcus from Ethiopia looks like one of those tall and slender elongated types.
You forgot one thing Snaky - Gudea's representation is a sculptured figurine or statue. He's know more short and stubby then you'd find in one of Nok culture.
So Gudea is Nigerian now. O.k. we'll drop the Ethiopian thing. But wait a minute he could be Mbuti
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: spam spam spam spam
You're in here everyday for someone who is concerned about "our West African ancestors".
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: did you post this somewhere?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: let's do this discussion elsewhere this is a thread for authentic Egyptian portraits
be consistent troll.
you brought up West Afrca
plus, look who's talking you don't start threads. I have different strategies on different threads. Why be simple?
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Snaky we might as well include your photo too. Since we're going for contrast here. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [IMG]dana I don't see the match, Gudea looks like some short stubby cold adapted dude but Marcus from Ethiopia looks like one of those tall and slender elongated types.
You forgot one thing Snaky - Gudea's representation is a sculptured figurine or statue. He's know more short and stubby then you'd find in one of Nok culture.
So Gudea is Nigerian now. O.k. we'll drop the Ethiopian thing. But wait a minute he could be Mbuti
Like I said there are many courses in the U.S. that have Reading for context courses. Don't know what there is in Sweden though. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Like I said there are many courses in the U.S. that have Reading for context courses. Don't know what there is in Sweden though. [/QB]
why do you hate on Afro Swiss people?
Gudea was a goddamn white boy. Open your eyes and wake up out of your trance
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Like I said there are many courses in the U.S. that have Reading for context courses. Don't know what there is in Sweden though.
why do you hate on Afro Swiss people?
Gudea was a goddamn white boy. Open your eyes and wake up out of your trance [/QB]
Afro Swiss I'd like to see that? On second thought it would be rather nice especially if they were like Gael Monfils. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I feel that their should be three criterion that indicates the founders of a particular civilization was African, or the result of indigenous development and creation of ancient Asian , European and American Blacks.
These criteria are: 1. Archaeological and anthropological evidence linking the Africans to a particular civilization; 2. Presence of genetically related languages; and 3. Historical evidence and social technologies invented over the past 5k years.
The archaeological evidence is clear. The River Valley civilizations of Africa and Asia were related.
The Africans who took civilization to Asia used a common black and red ware that has been found from the Sudan, across Southwest Asia and the Indian Subcontinent all the way to China (Singh 1982:xxiv) .The earliest use of this BRW was during the Amratian period (c.4000 3500 BC). The users of the BRW were usually called Kushites.
The best evidence for Africans founding the first civilizations are vessels from the IVBI workshop at Tepe Yahya (c.2100 1700 BC). The IVBI workshop vessels have a uniform shape and design. Vessels sharing this style are distributed from Egypt to Mesopotamia; and Soviet Uzbekistan, to the Indus Valley
The archaeological evidence suggest a widespread dispersal of of Proto Saharan tribes between 3800 2500 BC. This explains the common arrowheads at Harappan sites, and sites in Iran, Egypt, Minoan Crete and early Heladic Greece.
This archaeological evidence shows an African origin for the River Valley civilizations.
Henry Rawlinson used the Book of Genesis to find the identity of the Mesopotamia. He made it clear that the original inhabitants of Babylonia were represented by the name Nimrod and were represented by the family of Ham: Kushites, Egyptians and etc. This name came from the popularity among these people of hunting the leopard (Nimri). And as noted in earlier post the Egyptian and Nubian rulers always associated leopard spots with royalty, just as Siva is associated with the feline. As a result, Rawlinson used an African language Galla, to decipher the cuneiform writing.
The Sumerians and Elamites came from Africa, like the founders of the Indus Valley civilization. This is why the Elamite and Sumerian languages are closely related to African and Dravidian languages.
The Kushites when they migrated from Middle Africa to Asia continued to call themselves Kushites. This is most evident in place names and the names of gods. The Kassites, chief rulers of Iran occupied the central part of the Zagros. The Kassite god was called Kashshu, which was also the name of the people. The K-S-H, name element is also found in India. For example Kishkinthai, was the name applied to an ancient Dravidian kingdom in South India. Also it should be remembered that the Kings of Sumer, were often referred to as the " Kings of Kush".
The major Kushite tribe in Central Asia was called Kushana. The Kushan of China were styled Ta Yueh-ti or "the Great Lunar Race". Along the Salt Swamp, there was a state called Ku-Shih of Tibet. The city of K-san, was situated in the direction of Kushan, which was located in the Western part of the Gansu Province of China.
The Elamites later conquered Sumer. They called this line of Kings,he "King of Kish'. This term has affinity to the term Kush,that was given to the Kerma dynasty, founded by the C-Group people of Kush. It is interesting to note that the Elamite language, is closely related to the African languages including Egyptian and the Dravidian languages of India.
The most important Kushite colony in Iran was ancient Elam. The Elamites called their country KHATAM or KHALTAM (Ka-taam). The capital of Khaltam which we call Susa, was called KHUZ (Ka-u-uz) by the Aryans, NIME (Ni-may) by the people of Sumer, and KUSHSHI (Cush-she) by the Elamites.In the Akkadian inscriptions the Elamites were called GIZ-BAM (the land of the bow). The ancient Chinese or Bak tribesmen which dominate China today called the Elamites KASHTI. Moreover, in the Bible the Book of Jeremiah (xlxx,35), we read "bow of Elam". It is interesting to note that both Khaltam-ti and Kashti as the name for Elam, agrees with Ta-Seti, the ancient name for Nubia located in the Meroitic Sudan.
If you are saying Khuz in the Scytho-Aryan is called Kush I would have to ask where that source if from as I had read the word Khuz as in Khuzistan had a different derivation from Shusa to Hauja or Huza. The important thing to note is that Elam also was occupied by more than one Africoid type. Aside from small Dravidian types there were also the early Amorites who may have brought the name Alam or Lam to the region. Both may have been purveyors of the Black and Red Ware culture.
I am wondering if the name Kha'taam - if that is truly what they were called - and the name of Elam is somehow tied to that of the modern black Kha'tam and Lam or Khuza'il Arabians (the latter still occupy the region).
I the Black and Red Ware is first associated with Calcolithic culture in the Near East and india nd and then is associater later in the iron age with the Megalithic culture of Southern India Anthropologist, 5 (2): 131-136 (2003)Black and Red Ware: A Metrical Analysis of Two Different Cultures (Chalcolithic Culture and Megalithic Culture of India), by Sruti Kona Dey,
Kamal Salibi mentioned the name of two Elams mentioned in the Biblical book of Nehemiah refer not to Iran but to two regions of modern Asir (southern Hijaz) Wadi al Alam and Wadi Alma of the Zahran lowland.
In modern times the black Arabian Lam or Lamluns of modern Iran for example are called Kuza'ilm Khaza'el or Kassahil. These are the black tribes said to have resembled the Bisharin Beja by Rawlinson.
The term Namr, Nomir or Numayr is associated the well known name of the black Arabian tribe of Numayr ibn Cassit or ibn Arfakshad who by Arabian tradition is associated with early Babylon.
You said in one of your articles the BRW (Black and Red Ware )was found in th lowest levels of Lothal. This is the area of the skeletons that have otherwise been described as "Elmenteitan" (formerly called Kenya Capsian) type who were a tall people. Thus the pottery may not have been spread southward by Dravidians but by other Ethiopic people unless Dravidians were originally represented by more than one physical type.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Who is this twit fooling? As if anyone else in this forum is too stupid to make out the two black Africans above. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Originally posted by Mindovermatter: Yea, this isn't news, it's already known that the Natufians albeit clustering phenotypically with niger-congo speakers exhibited more cold adapted limbs than their African counterparts.
^That didn't make sense to me. Can you establish that the cold adapted limbs found by Trenton relate to Brace's sample that fell in between Niger congo speakers and Nubians? If not, why associate Trentons cold adapted limbs with Brace's sample?
Less we forget, and notwithstanding that craniofacial indices are a seperate thing from those measurements used to generate what one could call estimation of climate-adaptedness, Eastern Africans including residents of ancient Nile River Valley States had body plans so tropically adapted in comparison to SOME "sub-Saharan" Africans they were originally termed "super negroid" in ANY CASE.
And lioness, it's ok, no, it can actually be smart to use defunct terms that were intended to serve the purpose of some school of thought to show precisely that they are not even of use in that way.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: it can actually be smart to use defunct terms that were intended to serve the purpose of some school of thought to show precisely that they are not even of use in that way. [/QB]
still trying to flip it to make it work?
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: still trying to flip it to make it work?
... and give you a compliment in the process for your (currently not so annoying) comedic style of posting and of trolling.
but yeah the idea is you show how easily the intended purpose of using a certain term can be flipped on its head, ho easily it canbe used against its self.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
One of the few interesting threads. So I will post.
What I got from the study is Europeans and other cold adapted peoples show similar traits. 1. Thick/long trunks 2. Short legs and arms 3. Large femoral indices 4. Broad hips(and flat butt). That why I can’t find a good pair of fitting jeans. LOL! 5. Hairy body What was the nonsense Gigantic was talking about “gracile” Europeans.
--------- From. . .
Body Proportions of Circumpolar Peoples as Evidenced From Skeletal Data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) Versus Kodiak Island Inuit Trenton W. Holliday1* and Charles E. Hilton2 1Department of Anthropology, Tulane University, New Orleans, LA 70118 2Department of Anthropology, Grinnell College, Grinnell, IA 50112-1690
Rather, all high-latitude groups, including Europeans, evince a more cold-adapted physique, and only for a few key traits (e.g., relative bi-iliac breadth, female relative femoral head size) are the circumpolar groups consistently significantly more cold-adapted than Europeans. Thus, the major contrast in body shape is found between Europeans and circumpolar groups on the one hand, and tropical and, to a lesser extent, subtropical, Africans on the other.[/b] This is an unexpected finding in that it hints that Europeans likely experienced (and perhaps still experience today) significant selection for a ‘‘cold-adapted’’ postcranial morphology.
ABSTRACT Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely coldadapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European- derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted === body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, biiliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, [b]the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara. Am J Phys Anthropol 142:287–302, 2010. V
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Archeological/artifactual evidence suggests that foragers in both periods exploited sea mammals (ocean currents keep much of the coastal water ice-free throughout the winter). However, during the Ipiutak Period, there was far more emphasis on caribou hunting, while during the later Tigara Period, hunters made much more frequent use of whales (Larsen and Rainey, 1948)—
=== Body proportions of humans [and other endothermic (i.e., ‘‘warm-blooded’’) species] have long been known to show significant correlations with climatic variables and their proxies.
==== Specifically, two empirically derived ecogeographical rules, those of Bergmann (1847) and Allen (1877), state that within a widespread endothermic species, those in colder regions will tend to weigh more (Bergmann’s rule) and be characterized by shorter appendages (Allen’s rule) than their conspecifics in warmer climes.
=== In particular, it has long been recognized that circumpolar peoples (e.g., Inuit, Aleuts, Sa´mi) have more foreshortened limb segments and broader trunks and are heavier on average than populations at even the mid-latitudes (Trinkaus, 1981; Ruff, 1994; Holliday, 1997b).
=== Note that while within each region, males tend to have higher indices than females; across regions, the Africans tend to have low index values and the circumpolar groups have high index values, with the Europeans appearing to be somewhat intermediate.
===
Likewise, the North and Sub- Saharan African females are not significantly different from each other, but are different from all other groups European females are significantly different from all other groups, with significantly lower index values than the circumpolar groups and larger values than the African samples. Likewise, the European males have significantly smaller femoral heads than the Tigara and significantly larger femoral heads than the Africans.
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Two other indices studied are the brachial (radius length:humerus length) and crural (tibial length:femoral length) indices. These indices assess the length of the distal limb segment relative to its proximal counterpart within each limb and have long been known to exhibit a significant relationship with climatic variables, with groups from colder climes evincing lower ratios (Coon, 1962; Badoux, 1965; Trinkaus, 1981). This seems to be due to the fact that the length of the distal limb segment is more developmentally labile than the proximal segment (Jantz and Jantz, 1999; Holliday and Ruff, 2001).
=== As expected, the African groups have high brachial indices, while the European and circumpolar groups are characterized by lower indices.
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Box plots for the limb length:skeletal trunk height ratios are found in Figure 3A–D. All limb:trunk indices show an apparent clinal distribution, with European and circumpolar samples characterized by lower indices, while the Africans show higher index values.
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Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)].
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Arctic Circle, we would find that they exhibit among the most extreme human body shapes in the world—i.e., they would be characterized by the most foreshortened limbs, the broadest pelves, and highest femoral head to femoral length ratios of all the groups sampled.
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The results of our study are somewhat mixed with regard to these hypotheses. As was found by Ruff (1994, 2002), contrasts between the circumpolar groups and Africans are consistently significant, with Ipiutak and Tigara males and females significantly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans for every calculated index, the Koniag different from the Sub-Saharan Africans for most indices, and all three circumpolar groups showing significant differences from the North Africans for a plurality, if not majority of the indices calculated. Contrasts between the circumpolar groups and the Europeans, however, are decidedly less marked.
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The environmental component of body proportions has been noted for some time in experimental studies (e.g., Lee et al., 1969; Weaver and Ingram, 1969; Riesenfeld, 1973) in which animals raised in different climate-controlled environments ultimately developed different body proportions, with animals raised in the cold evincing shorter limbs than their conspecifics (or litter mates) raised in hot environments.
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To make matters more complicated, climate is not the only factor that can act on body proportions—malnutrition is documented to lead to reduced stature, which tends to be associated with lower limb:trunk proportions and foreshortened distal limb segments (Tanner et al., 1982; Jantz and Jantz, 1999).
==
Specifically, the earliest modern humans in Europe for whom we have body proportion data tend to show more African-like body proportions (Holliday, 1997a), while later European modern humans show foreshortened limbs in spite of archeological data indicative of improved cultural buffering. This suggests selection for shorter limbs in Late Pleistocene Europe, although we also cannot as of yet rule out the possibility that late Pleistocene gene flow from Neandertals to early modern Europeans played some role in establishing more ‘‘cold-adapted’’ limb proportions for this latter population (Holliday, 1997a, 2006b).
===
and it is even more surprising that these three circumpolar groups exhibit so few body proportion differences from Europeans.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Speaking about cold-adaptations. It seems like the north Chinese/Japanese are just as cold-adapted as Europeans. Even MORE cold adpated.
Evidently they have large trunks, short stumpy legs and arms, flat broad butts. . .and of course light skin.
So they too are from the far north.
See the study I posted on ESR about Han genetic results. Many may be wondering where I was going with this when I posted it. Same for the Northern vs Southern East Indians posted on ESR.
Cleary the Ice Age impacted not only Europeans.
Question is why did the northerns eventually conquer the southern dark people. Is it agression, cunning or something else? Clearly dark Southerns were technological more advance up to about 1000BC.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Speaking about cold-adaptations. It seems like the north Chinese/Japanese are just as cold-adapted as Europeans. Even MORE cold adpated.
Evidently they have large trunks, short stumpy legs and arms, flat broad butts. . .and of course light skin.
So they too are from the far north.
See the study I posted on ESR about Han genetic results. Many may be wondering where I was going with this when I posted it. Same for the Northern vs Southern East Indians posted on ESR.
Cleary the Ice Age impacted not only Europeans.
Question is why did the northerns eventually conquer the southern dark people. Is it agression, cunning or something else? Clearly dark Southerns were technological more advance up to about 1000BC.
The answer is simple civilizations rise and fall.
Europeans have not ruled the world since 1000 BC.
During the BC Europeans only created the Greek and Roman civilizations. Both of these civilizations lasted little more than 300 years--and then went into decline. The the Egyptian,and Mali civilizations lasted longer.
Except for North America, Europeans have not been in control of other countries. The Scramble for Africa which led to the colonization of Africa began in 1895 and by the late 1950's African countries were becoming independent
The two last great European empires the British and Americans, like earlier European civilizations flourished for around 300 years and then began a downward fall.
It amazes me that most people fail to look seriously at world history and the role of Europeans in that history.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: come on son they not rocking beards like this in Africa
Mesopotamian civilizations (Sumerian, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans and Medians) devoted great care to oiling and dressing their beards, using tongs and curling irons to create elaborate ringlets and tiered patterns.
Look below, this is not a match:
you mus be trippin
And the beauty of it all is, they are priests as well. Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: it can actually be smart to use defunct terms that were intended to serve the purpose of some school of thought to show precisely that they are not even of use in that way.
still trying to flip it to make it work? [/QB]
Con-coined as we speak.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Trotter and Gleser's (Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 10 (1952) 469–514; Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 16 (1958) 79–123) long bone formulae for US Blacks or derivations thereof (Robins and Shute: Hum Evol 1 (1986) 313–324) have been previously used to estimate the stature of ancient Egyptians. However, limb length to stature proportions differ between human populations; consequently, the most accurate mathematical stature estimates will be obtained when the population being examined is as similar as possible in proportions to the population used to create the equations. The purpose of this study was to create new stature regression formulae based on direct reconstructions of stature in ancient Egyptians and assess their accuracy in comparison to other stature estimation methods. We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites. Living stature estimates were derived using a revised Fully anatomical method (Raxter et al.: Am J Phys Anthropol 130 (2006) 374–384). Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical. The newly generated Egyptian-based stature regression formulae have standard errors of estimate of 1.9–4.2 cm. All mean directional differences are less than 0.4% compared to anatomically estimated stature, while results using previous formulae are more variable, with mean directional biases varying between 0.2% and 1.1%, tibial and radial estimates being the most biased. There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2008.
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)...... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of neriod origin."
he almost looks like a different person in the different renditions. The bottom one looks most finely crafted to me
Posts: 42934 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It's commonly claimed on this forum that the Natufians of Mesolithic Southwest Asia were a black people of African descent. I don't doubt that they may have had African ancestry, but this paper by Trenton Holliday reports that, while the first modern humans to migrate to Southwest Asia from Africa were tropically adapted, their Natufian descendants became cold-adapted. From the paper:
quote:Natufians also exhibit a somewhat cold-adapted physique, albeit not as extreme as the Neandertals.
This challenges the belief that the Natufians were black, for if these people were really tropically adapted like blacks, why don't their limb proportions show it?
It doesn't challenge anything, Brace even noted that the African and Eurasian influence was nearly equal (even though his charts, distance-wise showed an obviously closer affiliation with SSAs). Nor do I recall the Natufians being "Black" as an established belief that needs to be challenged. They obviously came predominantly from Africa though, based on numerous grounds, including archaeology, botany (fig migration), craniology and geography and language reconstruction.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: It's commonly claimed on this forum that the Natufians of Mesolithic Southwest Asia were a black people of African descent. I don't doubt that they may have had African ancestry, but this paper by Trenton Holliday reports that, while the first modern humans to migrate to Southwest Asia from Africa were tropically adapted, their Natufian descendants became cold-adapted. From the paper:
quote:Natufians also exhibit a somewhat cold-adapted physique, albeit not as extreme as the Neandertals.
This challenges the belief that the Natufians were black, for if these people were really tropically adapted like blacks, why don't their limb proportions show it?
It doesn't challenge anything, Brace even noted that the African and Eurasian influence was nearly equal (even though his charts, distance-wise showed an obviously closer affiliation with SSAs). Nor do I recall the Natufians being "Black" as an established belief that needs to be challenged. They obviously came predominantly from Africa though, based on numerous grounds, including archaeology, botany (fig migration), craniology and geography and language reconstruction.
Basically this...
The Natufian Culture in the Levant, Threshold to the Origins of Agriculture
quote:The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa...
--C Brace (2005)
quote: "From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub-Sabaran genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt - such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semai 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980) - show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens.
This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic-early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations...... This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005).
In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)." .
Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample ( Trenton Holliday 2013) El Wad site, Mount Carmel Israel,( Natufian) (above chart) Natufian limb ratios cluster with Europeans although their skulls have some African traits. The are Middle Easterners
The Natufian culture was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 14,000 to 10,200 BP (8185 B.C.) in the Levant.
Agriculture originated in the Near East - in modern Syria, Iraq and Israel - before expanding into Europe around 7,500 years ago.(5500 BC)
So the Near Eastern farmers brought agriculture to Europe 2,700 years after the end of the Natufian culture
quote:The site of Beisamoun is located in the western margins of the Hula Basin, c. 10 km south of Qiryat Shemona. A moderate Mediterranean climate and water resources in the immediate vicinity of the site, such as the ‘Enan and Agamon springs, were one of the major factors for establishing prehistoric settlements in this region, one of which was ‘Ein Mallaha, a major Natufian site in the Levant.
quote: In the Levant—the area that today encompasses Israel, the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Jordan, and western Syria—archaeologists had discovered settlements dating as far back as 13,000 B.C. Known as Natufian villages (the name comes from the first of these sites to be found), they sprang up across the Levant as the Ice Age was drawing to a close, ushering in a time when the region's climate became relatively warm and wet.
The discovery of the Natufians was the first rock through the window of Childe's Neolithic Revolution. Childe had thought agriculture the necessary spark that led to villages and ignited civilization. Yet although the Natufians lived in permanent settlements of up to several hundred people, they were foragers, not farmers, hunting gazelles and gathering wild rye, barley, and wheat. "It was a big sign that our ideas needed to be revised," says Harvard University archaeologist Ofer Bar-Yosef.
Natufian villages ran into hard times around 10,800 B.C., when regional temperatures abruptly fell some 12°F, part of a mini ice age that lasted 1,200 years and created much drier conditions across the Fertile Crescent. With animal habitat and grain patches shrinking, a number of villages suddenly became too populous for the local food supply. Many people once again became wandering foragers, searching the landscape for remaining food sources.
[...]
The Natufian sites in the Levant suggested instead that settlement came first and that farming arose later, as a product of crisis. Confronted with a drying, cooling environment and growing populations, humans in the remaining fecund areas thought, as Bar-Yosef puts it, "If we move, these other folks will exploit our resources. The best way for us to survive is to settle down and exploit our own area." Agriculture followed.
The majority of the rediscovered fossil material was from Shukbah Cave, the site where Garrod first described the Natufian culture that existed 12-15,000 years ago.
The Natufian artefacts and sites showed some evidence of early agriculture, as well as settlements and even some of the first evidence of dog domestication.
Another smaller collection of material likely dates back to around 50,000 years ago. The location and timing of this material means it may cover the period of overlap between the last Neanderthals and early modern humans in Israel.
‘Very few early modern human fossils exist that date to [this period] and the material is therefore very significant,’ said Dr Isabelle De Groote, now at Liverpool John Moores University.
‘It has the potential to answer important questions about the dispersal of anatomically modern humans out of Africa
If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element.
quote:In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2006), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
--f. x. ricaut1 and m. waelkens1
Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements
quote: Recently discovered bone implements from Middle Stone Age (MSA) deposits at Sibudu Cave, South Africa, confirm the existence of a bone tool industry for the Howiesons Poort (HP) technocomplex. Previously, an isolated bone point from Klasies River provided inconclusive evidence. This paper describes three bone tools: two points and the end of a polished spatula-shaped piece, from unequivocal HP layers at Sibudu Cave (with ages greater than ?61 ka). Comparative microscopic and morphometric analysis of the Sibudu specimens together with bone tools from southern African Middle and Later Stone Age (LSA) deposits, an Iron Age occupation, nineteenth century Bushman hunter-gatherer toolkits, and bone tools used experimentally in a variety of tasks, reveals that the Sibudu polished piece has use-wear reminiscent of that on bones experimentally used to work animal hides. A slender point is consistent with a pin or needle-like implement, while a larger point, reminiscent of the single specimen from Peers Cave, parallels large un-poisoned bone arrow points from LSA, Iron Age and historical Bushman sites. Additional support for the Sibudu point having served as an arrow tip comes from backed lithics in the HP compatible with this use, and the recovery of older, larger bone and lithic points from Blombos Cave, interpreted as spear heads. If the bone point from the HP layers at Sibudu Cave is substantiated by future discoveries, this will push back the origin of bow and bone arrow technology by at least 20,000 years, and corroborate arguments in favour of the hypothesis that crucial technological innovations took place during the MSA in Africa.
--Backwella, d'Erricob, and Wadleyd (2008) Middle Stone Age bone tools from the Howiesons Poort layers, Sibudu Cave, South Africa. Journal of Archaeological Science. Volume 35, Issue 6, June 2008, Pages 1566–1580
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but yeah the idea is you show how easily the intended purpose of using a certain term can be flipped on its head, ho easily it canbe used against its self.
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