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Author Topic: 1- Basic database of Nile Valley studies
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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The PN2 transition [P2], a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ
derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the
migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has
two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites
numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan
regions.."


- From (S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A
comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679–689, 2004.)

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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"Human genetic variation particularly in Africa is still poorly understood. This is despite a consensus on the large African effective population size compared to populations from other continents. Based on sequencing of the mitochondrial Cytochrome C Oxidase subunit II (MT-CO2), and genome wide microsatellite data we observe evidence suggesting the effective size (Ne) of humans to be larger than the current estimates, with a foci of increased genetic diversity in east Africa, and a population size of east Africans being at least 2-6 fold larger than other populations. Both phylogenetic and network analysis indicate that east Africans possess more ancestral lineages in comparison to various continental populations placing them at the root of the human evolutionary tree. Our results also affirm east Africa as the likely spot from which migration towards Asia has taken place. The study reflects the spectacular level of sequence variation within east Africans in comparison to the global sample, and appeals for further studies that may contribute towards filling the existing gaps in the database. The implication of these data to current genomic research, as well as the need to carry out defined studies of human genetic variation that includes more African populations; particularly east Africans is paramount."

--Hirbo, Tishkoff et al. 2014. The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size. PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4028218/pdf/pone.0097674.pdf

 -


"It is not only genetic data that lends support to an east African
origin of humans but the unparalleled ethnic and linguistic
diversity that remains one of the highest worldwide. Interestingly
the two most ancestral sequences in the NJ tree figure refer to
Nubian individuals. Nubia is currently identified with one of the
most ancient human settlements, the Say culture. Recently, a
related compound associated with a lithic middle Stone Age
ndustry was discovered in Dhofar Oman and taken as an evidence
of human migration out of Africa through an Arabian route [46].
Overall, the various genetic markers used in the current analysis
support the observation of human effective population size larger
than previously estimated, and emphasize the importance of
sampling populations of putative deep ancestry."

--Hirbo, Tishkoff et al 2014.


 -

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
The PN2 transition [P2], a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ
derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the
migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has
two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites
numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan
regions.."


- From (S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A
comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679–689, 2004.)

To put this into perspective, I calculated the proportion of Y-DNA and MtDNA shared between Yoruba and Somali (using the latest phylotree.org for MtDNA):

For Y-DNA:
Yoruba P2(PN2)/e1b1a 93.1%
Somali P2(PN2)/e1b1b 81.1%

(using numbers from here)


For MtDNA (L2a, L3bf, L3cd, L3eikx, L0a1):
Yoruba 75.75%
Somali 66.93%

(using the numbers from Here)


So even populations within Africa (same as within Europe) who share phenotype differences (and similarities), can also share a common origin for a large part of their genome. The differences having been created (or having drifted in term of proportions in the population) after their common origin and thus after their migrations to their current locations in Africa (including recent back migration of Eurasians into East Africa in the last 3000 years LINK). While the similarities would be related to this common origin.

Keita mentions PN2/P2 as a common lineage which appeared in Africa after the migration of modern humans from Africa. Thus after the OOA migrations.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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KEITA 2015

http://www.cobbresearchlab.com/issue-1/2015/1/26/history-and-genetics-in-africa-a-need-for-better-cooperation-between-the-teams
----------------------------------------------------

 -


"The PN2/M2 biallelic lineage in part maps to the distribution of the family, as
does haplotype IV of the TaqI49a,f RFLP system, which in Africa and adjacent
regions apparently marks the same clade (see al-Zahery et al. 2003, Underhhill
personal communication). The spread of this family is frequently identified with
the distribution of these variants in nearly a causal fashion. In other words M2 is
said to be a marker of the Bantu expansion, which some earlier writers even
thought had gone into West Africa (see e.g. Guthrie 1962).

However, haplotype IV/ M2 is found in very high frequencies in Africa west of
the Cameroons from Nigeria to Atlantic, reaching a frequency of ~80% in a
sample from Senegal. Just as interesting is its reported frequency in one study of
Egypt (27%) and Nubia (39%) (Lucotte and Mercier 2003). There are no
Bantu speakers in these regions and no evidence that they were ever there.
Hence the “Bantu expansion”, a problematic concept especially as often
conceived, in any case cannot be used to explain their presence. Furthermore,
the Bantu expansion should not be conceived as having been a mass movement
of a single people, analogous to an mfecane, or the migration of the Banu Hilal.

Archaeology and historical linguistics help explore possible credible
explanations. The M2/ haplotype IV marker is found at great frequencies in
Niger-Congo speakers in general. It is likely that M2 existed in the early
ancestral family—proto-Niger Congo—and got distributed into all of its
branches as the family differentiated through space and time. This explanation
does not work for Egypt and Nubia since languages spoken there belong to
other families. However, archaeological data indicate a late pleistocene
recolonization of the eastern Sahara after a probable population hiatus between
50,000 to 15,000 years ago (Wendorf and Schild 2001). The peoples involved
can be expected to have been highly diverse. This marker may have entered the
Nile Valley with mid-Holocene population Saharan migrations into the Nile
Valley (Hassan 1988), which contributed to the peopling of the valley.

Another possibility is that Nilo-Saharan—to which Nubian belongs—and Niger
Congo form a larger language phylum called Kongo-Saharan (Gregersen 1972)
or Niger-Saharan (Blench 1995) whose earliest speakers shared a biohistorical
heritage that included the M2/RFLP IV marker. This could also explain the
substantial frequencies in Egyptian Nubians and NC speakers as a whole, and
not just Bantu speakers.

However there is a caveat: from a strictly biological point of view it is important
to note that M2 emerged likely before any of the language families based on
standard estimates of the ages. It is wrong to treat them in effect as having a
basal or causal relationship. This would also be true of Afro-Asiatic. On a more
interesting and even intriguing level it is worthwhile making the observation that
the P2 marker, which is ancestral to both the M2 and M35 or 215/M35, and is
therefore older than either, is father to the male clades whose bearers are
speakers of the three different language macrofamilies in Africa, with one of
them- being Afroasiatic. This is intriguing because it is not known what ancestral
language the father of these two lineages spoke. Was it a language that went
extinct? Was there an early proto-African language family that led to the current
language families? Most western linguists would say “no” to this second
question at the time of this writing. In any case the simplistic racialized gene
language maps that were once drawn as a validation, in my opinion, of a
preconception falls apart when the Y chromosome lineages are examined
against language families. The majority of the Afroasiatic speaking males in
Africa are connected to speakers of other families via their common P2
“father”, and are therefore genealogically connected in a way that they are not
related to Indo-European speakers. This will be surprising to those thinking of
northern African peoples in terms of those who most resemble Europeans or
Near Eastern neighbors. The E haplogroup places their male affiliation in Africa.
A critical narrative to explain the mtDNA profiles has not yet been developed.

A multidisciplinary approach clearly can help to avoid over generalizations with
regard to Bantu speakers. Misinterpretations can skew interpretations. This in
turn could lead to poor study designs in future work. Another issue is the use of
Bantu as a euphemism for “Negro” (Robertson and Bradley 2000) from the old
unscientific racial schema, which seems to be how some geneticists and
morphologists are using the term; while this issue is beyond the scope of this
essay it deserves mentioning given the emphasis placed on the sequencing of a
“Bantu” genome, which strictly speaking would mean looking at genes that were
thought to have arisen at the time the Bantu linguistic branch emerged."

--SOY Keita. (2015) History and Genetics in Africa: The Need for Better
Cooperation Between the Teams. The Backbone-Cobb Research Labratory,
V1, i1, Spring 2015

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Djehuti
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I want to know if you guys have heard that ever since the findings of Ramses III having E1b1a that now the Euronuts have 'modified' their argument to say that E1b1a and perhaps the entire E clade was Caucasoid in origin (AGAIN)! LOL [Big Grin]
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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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lo wait a minute, where are they saying this? So now
'E" becomes 'caucasoid'?

 -

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ausar
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It's been that way at least
a decade now for some scientists

It started with all the alpha
gamma delta clustering stuff
when N&E Meds were found to
be heavy E carriers.


Might still be in the archive
where some ESer predicted the
clusters would soon 'evolve'
into fullfledged Hgs of their
own.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
lo wait a minute, where are they saying this? So now
'E" becomes 'caucasoid'?


The first thing caveman aka "the loon" did when coming here, was make sure these markers were vanished.

But it can get funnier...:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010043;p=1#000012


Colins is somewhat in denial. Which is typical euronut behavior.

quote:

By removing the three defining markers I get 88.6%. Still not enough to convince ftdna that they are wrong so I’ll just leave it as is for the time being and accept the confirmation of E1b1a7a. In an updated wikipedia article on E1b1a it states “Outside of Africa, E1b1a has been found at low frequencies. In Eurasia, the clade has primarily been found in West Asia. There have also been reported a few isolated incidents of E1b1a in Southern European populations in Malta, Spain and Portugal. There have also been isolated incidences in Austria and Germany”. I have been saying for quite sometime after conversations with Darren Marin of ftdna and the fact that genetic relatives show a “recent ancestral origin” in Germany. Mr. Marin said that our German match was from that country and had an ancient history there. He could not divulge anymore information than that due to privacy issues. One family having ancient origins in Europe is the Gabbenesch family of Tyrol, Austria. Recent immigrants to the US, with a confirmed haplogroup of E1b1a8a. Researchers of this line theorize a Roman ancestor or something more ancient among the Rhaetian, an Alpine Tribe of the Raetia and the Po Valley.

This finding has blown holes into theories of quite a few Afro-centrists.


[...]


http://shaybo-therisingtide.blogspot.com/2011/10/collins-y-dna-has-blown-holes-in.html

However:

quote:
Y-chromosomal variation: Insights into the history of Niger-Congo groups

Similar to E1b1a8, the highest STR variance for E1b1a7a was found in the C.A.R. Pygmies (0.49); however, the Bantu speakers from West Zambia and the Burkina Faso Gur speakers also had high STR variances (0.47 and 0.43, respectively).

[...]

The tMRCA estimates for haplogroups E1b1a7 and E1b1a8 were calculated by means of the ASD statistic for the major ethno-linguistic groups (Table 3). The highest tMRCA (~4,200 ya) for E1b1a7a was ascertained in the Yoruba from Nigeria, while the lowest (~2,000 ya) was in Nilo-Saharans. With regard to E1b1a8, the highest tMRCA (~ 5,000 ya) was found in Mande speakers from both Burkina Faso and Senegal, while the lowest (~3,400 ya) was in the Bantu.

[...]

These results suggest that this haplogroup was present for a longer time in Western Africa – which is the presumed place of origin of the defining M2 mutation (Rosa et al. 2007) – and that two of the derived mutations considered here (e.g. M191 and U174) did not occur in the ancestors of the Mande; the low frequencies of E1b1a7a found in these groups could be due to later admixture.

[...]

Furthermore, for other studies reporting high frequencies of M191 in Bantu speaking groups, we suggest that those individuals are likely to harbor the derived mutation U174 (see for example Appendix A in Wood et al. 2005). This is confirmed by the results of the LDA for the Ugandan dataset, where all individuals that had been genotyped as E1b1a7 were inferred to belong to E1b1a7a.



Etc...

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/11/25/molbev.msq312.abstract


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/34266-E1b1a7a


It's unusual to use wiki, for strategically it's beneficial.


 -


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti


 -

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley


What remains now is to follow the crumbs.


quote:
first image definitely showing a moor is an illumination from 1316 in the so-called Prädialbuch. So sometime between 1286 and 1316 the crowned head became a crowned moor's head. Since then the crowned moor's head is considered the arms of the bishop of Freising and of his territory, the Hochstift. The Hochstift contained widespread territories in Bavaria (e.g. Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Wörth), but also in Slovenia (Skofja Loka) and South Tyrol (Innichen). Many of the cities and municipalities formerly belonging to the Hochstift contain the moor's head in their coat-of-arms. See for instance my pages about the Wörth arms and its historical sources.


http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm


 -


http://celticowboy.com/appiiia.htm

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to Islamic invasions and expansions

"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "

-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991,

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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Southerly regions in Dynastic times more populous
"Butzer’s (1976) figures demonstrate that throughout the dynastic period the
Egyptian population numbers were denser between Aswan and Qift, and
between the Faiyum and the head of the Delta. The Delta and the southern
wide floodplain were more sparsely populated."
-- Mark Lehner, The complete Pyramids

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Djehuti
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^^ I believe the above findings should also be posted here: MODERN EGYPTIANS on average are mostly of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???
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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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climatic zone map
 -

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ I believe the above findings should also be posted here: MODERN EGYPTIANS on average are mostly of FOREIGN ANCESTRY ???

INDEED- AND HERE IT IS BELOW:

===========================================================================================================================================

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] Excellent roundup Tukler! And the DNA is backed by cranial
data as well showing that late period samples are
not typically Egyptian (Zakrewski)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
[qb]

  • A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data
    for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.

    Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and
    Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
     -
     -
     -

    Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
    * Egypt is not primarily African
.
.

  •  -
     -



 -

 -

-----------------------------------------------------

OLDER DNA TRIBES DATA + additional cranial data



 -

----------------------------------------------------------

NEW DATA 2- Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to
recent Islamic invasions and expansions per sme DNA studies


"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "

-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991,

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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Cranial roundup in detail showing changes in Egyptian population
away from older patterns..

 -

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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"It can be noted that none of the Northeast African groups are significantly
different from any other African groups (East African (EA), African
Pygmy (AP), Khoe-San (KS)) (Table 27). 156 Therefore, West Africans of
both sexes appear to possess the longest distal bones relative to the
proximal for the upper limb. Ancient Egyptians and Nubians thus possess
generally tropically adapted upper limb proportions, with their brachial
indices grouping with the majority of other African groups."

"Ancient Egyptians and Nubians of both sexes are consistently
significantly different in limb length proportions from Northern and
Southern Europeans, with their brachial and crural indices grouping with
the majority of other Africans."

--Raxter Michele, 2011. Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide
Comparison

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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 -

QUOTE:

"However, extensive historical and genetic data show that recent gene flow has drastically influenced the genomes of present-day Egyptians and Ethiopians... .. we first identified and then masked the recent non-African ancestry in the Ethiopian and Egyptian genomes. Using ADMIXTURE17 and principal-component analysis (PCA)18 (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously. .. The affinity of the Egyptian African component with the modern East and West African populations (green component in Figure 1B, K ¼ 5) could be due to either a continuity of human presence in the area or recent gene flow from neighboring African regions resulting from demographic processes ..”
--Pagani et al 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. American Journal of Human Genetics 96, 986–991

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Elite Diasporan
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Yo Zaharan can you teach me how to create those charts?
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Djehuti
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quote:
[q]Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[/QB] Colins is somewhat in denial. Which is typical euronut behavior.

quote:

By removing the three defining markers I get 88.6%. Still not enough to convince ftdna that they are wrong so I’ll just leave it as is for the time being and accept the confirmation of E1b1a7a. In an updated wikipedia article on E1b1a it states “Outside of Africa, E1b1a has been found at low frequencies. In Eurasia, the clade has primarily been found in West Asia. There have also been reported a few isolated incidents of E1b1a in Southern European populations in Malta, Spain and Portugal. There have also been isolated incidences in Austria and Germany”. I have been saying for quite sometime after conversations with Darren Marin of ftdna and the fact that genetic relatives show a “recent ancestral origin” in Germany. Mr. Marin said that our German match was from that country and had an ancient history there. He could not divulge anymore information than that due to privacy issues. One family having ancient origins in Europe is the Gabbenesch family of Tyrol, Austria. Recent immigrants to the US, with a confirmed haplogroup of E1b1a8a. Researchers of this line theorize a Roman ancestor or something more ancient among the Rhaetian, an Alpine Tribe of the Raetia and the Po Valley.

This finding has blown holes into theories of quite a few Afro-centrists.


[...]


http://shaybo-therisingtide.blogspot.com/2011/10/collins-y-dna-has-blown-holes-in.html

However:

quote:
Y-chromosomal variation: Insights into the history of Niger-Congo groups

Similar to E1b1a8, the highest STR variance for E1b1a7a was found in the C.A.R. Pygmies (0.49); however, the Bantu speakers from West Zambia and the Burkina Faso Gur speakers also had high STR variances (0.47 and 0.43, respectively).

[...]

The tMRCA estimates for haplogroups E1b1a7 and E1b1a8 were calculated by means of the ASD statistic for the major ethno-linguistic groups (Table 3). The highest tMRCA (~4,200 ya) for E1b1a7a was ascertained in the Yoruba from Nigeria, while the lowest (~2,000 ya) was in Nilo-Saharans. **With regard to E1b1a8, the highest tMRCA (~ 5,000 ya) was found in Mande speakers from both Burkina Faso and Senegal,** while the lowest (~3,400 ya) was in the Bantu.

[...]

These results suggest that this haplogroup was present for a longer time in Western Africa – which is the presumed place of origin of the defining M2 mutation (Rosa et al. 2007) – and that two of the derived mutations considered here (e.g. M191 and U174) did not occur in the ancestors of the Mande; the low frequencies of E1b1a7a found in these groups could be due to later admixture.

[...]

Furthermore, for other studies reporting high frequencies of M191 in Bantu speaking groups, we suggest that those individuals are likely to harbor the derived mutation U174 (see for example Appendix A in Wood et al. 2005). This is confirmed by the results of the LDA for the Ugandan dataset, where all individuals that had been genotyped as E1b1a7 were inferred to belong to E1b1a7a.



Etc...

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/11/25/molbev.msq312.abstract


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/34266-E1b1a7a


It's unusual to use wiki, for strategically it's beneficial.


 -


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti


 -

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley


What remains now is to follow the crumbs.


quote:
first image definitely showing a moor is an illumination from 1316 in the so-called Prädialbuch. So sometime between 1286 and 1316 the crowned head became a crowned moor's head. Since then the crowned moor's head is considered the arms of the bishop of Freising and of his territory, the Hochstift. The Hochstift contained widespread territories in Bavaria (e.g. Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Wörth), but also in Slovenia (Skofja Loka) and South Tyrol (Innichen). Many of the cities and municipalities formerly belonging to the Hochstift contain the moor's head in their coat-of-arms. See for instance my pages about the Wörth arms and its historical sources.


http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm


 -


http://celticowboy.com/appiiia.htm [/QB]

We know that the first Moorish invasion originated with the Sanhaja of the Senegal River Valley. However, anything prior to the Sanhaja especially with regards to ancient times and the Alpine areas of Europe, I'd have to guess its attribution to Numidians or some other Northwest African group that may historically have been involved with Hannibal and his crossing of the Alps. Do you think this possible as well?
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Ish Gebor
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^ I never thought of that, but that does sound logical.

Perhaps I got distracted by "Celtic Cowboy".

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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"SLC24A5 was shown to play a pivotal role in skin pigmentation lightening in Europeans 10. Interestingly, the haplotype profile of SLC24A5 in CEU revealed a high affinity to aFM ( D aFM, MHG = 2) and a substantial distance to aHG ( D aHG, MHG = 28), as suggests that skin lightening associated with SLC24A5 originated from Near East, and likely was introduced into ancient Europeans via farming transition. This was strongly supported by a recent study based on 83 ancient DNA specimens 53."
--Zhou et al 2015 (A Chronological Atlas of Natural Selection in the Human Genome during the Past Half-million Years. BioRxiv (quoted in Cochran).

"We also found evidence of selection at two loci that affect skin pig mentation. The derived alleles 63 of rs1426654 at SLC24A5 and rs16891982 at SLC45A2 are, respectively, fixed and almost fixed in present -64 day Europeans 23,24. As previously reported 7,11,12, both derived alleles are absent or very rare in western 65 hunter -gatherers. suggesting that mainland European hunter -gatherers may have had dark skin 66 pigmentation. SLC45A2 first appears in our data at low frequency in the Early Neolithic, and increases 67 steadily in frequency until the present... In contrast, the derived allele of 69 SLC24A5 increases rapidly in frequency to around 0.9 in the Early Neolithic, suggesting that most of the 70 increase in frequency of this allele is due to its high frequency in the early farmers who migrated from the southeast at this time, although there is still strong evidence of ongoing selection after the arrival 72 of farming .."
--Mathieson et al 2015.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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 -

Ancient West African Neolithic in Europe

"Due to their geographic locations, Spain and Portugal seem to be ideal
places for searching for These lineages... The L3f variant found in
Asturias seems to constitute an Iberian-specific haplogroup, distantly
related to lineages in Northern Africa and with a deep ancestry in Western
Africa. Coalescent algorithms estimate the minimum arrival time as 8,000
years ago, and a possible route through the Gibraltar Strait... Results are
concordant with a previously proposed Neolithic connection between
Southern Europe and Western Africa, which might be key to the proper
understanding of the ancient links between these two continents."

--Pardinas et al 2014. Over the sands and far away: Interpreting an Iberian
mitochondrial lineage with ancient Western African origins. Am Jr Hum
Bio, v26, i6, 777-783


Long-standing ancient migration from Africa to Europe

"Mitochondrial DNA sequences and restriction fragment polymorphisms
were retrieved from three Islamic 12th-13th century samples of 71 bones
and teeth (with >85% efficiency) from Madinat Baguh (today called
Priego de Cordoba, Spain). Compared with 108 saliva samples from the
present population of the same area, the medieval samples show a higher
proportion of sub-Saharan African lineages that can only partially be
attributed to the historic Muslim occupation. In fact, the unique sharing of
transition 16175, in L1b lineages, with Europeans, instead of Africans,
suggests a more ancient arrival to Europe from Africa. The present day
Priego sample is more similar to the current south Iberian population than
to the medieval sample from the same area. The increased gene flow in
modern times could be the main cause of this difference."

--Casas et al 2006. Human mitochondrial DNA diversity in an
archaeological site in al-Andalus.. Am J Phy Anthro. 2006 131(4):539-51.


African migrations via Gibraltar

“ These early Neolithic populations of Andalusia appear to have consisted
of a number of distinct groups (12), one of which is suggested to have
African origin due to finds of characteristic red ochre ceramics (13, 14).
Similarities have also been noted between the predynastic Badarian
Egyptian culture dated to the 5th millennium B.C. and the Late Atlantic
Neolithic culture in western Andalusia (14). Previously, the appearance of
the Late Atlantic Neolithic culture had been placed at a significantly later
date than the Egyptian culture, and this chronology and the cultural
similarity were interpreted as implying that Egypt was the original source
(14). However, more accurate radiocarbon dates obtained from Late
Atlantic Neolithic culture sites subsequently redated the origin of this
culture to being approximately the same as that of the predynastic
Badarian Egyptian culture (15), leading to the hypothesis that these two
cultures might derive from a common area, perhaps through pastoral
groups living in the Sahara. The culture linked to the Late Atlantic
Neolithic period is known to have been dedicated almost exclusively to
cattle breeding, secondarily complemented by sheep and goat breeding
(14), suggesting that an investigation of the origin of Iberian cattle may
offer further insight into early Iberian–African cultural contacts. "

--C. Anderung, et al. 2005. Prehistoric contacts over the Straits of
Gibraltar.. PNAS June 14, 2005 vol. 102 no. 24 8431-8435

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to Islamic invasions and expansions

"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "

-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991,

So this is the complete opposite of what mendacious racists like Mathilda have been arguing? They argued that 80% of modern Egyptians DNA has not changed since ancient times.
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tropicals redacted
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quote:
So this is the complete opposite of what mendacious racists like Mathilda have been arguing? They argued that 80% of modern Egyptians DNA has not changed since ancient times.

I'm hoping Professor Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, who posts here on ES under the name Quetzalcoatl, addresses this. He maintained that the population has remained the same and when I quoted him the 80% figure, said that he might have to contact the author of the study, so would have to get back to me:

quote:
2nd September 2015
I'm working on the Pagani paper and may have to ask him a question. I'll get back to you.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010486;p=1
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Elite Diasporan
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In the online academia community the so called war for the origins of the Ancient Egyptians has already been won. Eurocentrics just refuse to wave the white flag.

It can be argued that in mainstream academia that the war has already been won.

The next step should be getting these sources to the mainstream. Especially threads such as this one.

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


NEW DATA 2- Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to
recent Islamic invasions and expansions per sme DNA studies


"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "

-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991, [/QB]

WOW!!! Don't know why I haven't seen this!

There goes the argument of modern Egyptians being exactly the same as the Ancients. [Big Grin]

Like I said this so called "battle" has already been won for the "Afrocentrics" in the academia online community.

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xyyman
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Some of you are finally catching on, Europeans are depigmented Africans. A subset. They are NOT Dravidians. In fact, astonishing as it may seem Europeans are more African than non-African. Rosenberg et al(2002) and now Lazaridis et al (2015).

Geography! Geography ! Geography !

And yes, the white skin came from African Neolithics.

This has all been resolved .

BTW - Modern Egyptians although heaviest admixed of all Africans are NOT 80% non-Africans via the Islamic Expansion. The wording in the study is intentionally misleading.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


NEW DATA 2- Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to
recent Islamic invasions and expansions per sme DNA studies


"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "

-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991,

WOW!!! Don't know why I haven't seen this!

There goes the argument of modern Egyptians being exactly the same as the Ancients. [Big Grin]

Like I said this so called "battle" has already been won for the "Afrocentrics" in the academia online community. [/QB]

Who, on average, has more ancestry from people who lived in dynastic Egypt before the later periods
Modern Egyptians or populations now living outside of Egypt?

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


NEW DATA 2- Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to
recent Islamic invasions and expansions per sme DNA studies


"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "

-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991,

WOW!!! Don't know why I haven't seen this!

There goes the argument of modern Egyptians being exactly the same as the Ancients. [Big Grin]

Like I said this so called "battle" has already been won for the "Afrocentrics" in the academia online community.

Who, on average, has more ancestry from people who lived in dynastic Egypt before the later periods
Modern Egyptians or populations now living outside of Egypt? [/QB]

The indigenous people of Egypt in Luxor, Esna, Edfu, Kom Ombo, the red sea coast and even Aswan and the Siwa oasis are going to carry far more ancestry from the pharaohs than anyone else. They are indisputably the legitimate descendants of the ancients. The rest of the people in Egypt are like white Americans - newcomers with no noteworthy links to the ancient past and its heritage.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
are going to carry far more ancestry from the pharaohs than anyone else

You say "are going to" but in reality you have no idea. All the genetic analysis thus far contradict what you claim is "indisputable".

There's no ancient population in modern egypt that just happens to be completely isolated from the foreign admixtures (Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, etc and mainly muslim Arabs).

So even the populations you cite, they are heavily admixed with foreign invaders and migrants. Most of them are now muslim or christians and speak the arabic language. We know it by analyzing their DNA and those of Ancient Egyptian mummies.

All modern Egyptian populations are a nice admixture of foreign invaders/migrants and Ancient Egyptians. Something to be proud of because those are all great people like Romans, Greeks, Ancient Egyptians, Kushites, Assyrians, Persians, Bedouins, etc. Maybe the closest to Ancient Egyptians would be the Nubians still living along the Nile in upper egypt. Although those Nubians are not direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians or even Kushites for the most part (various level of admixtures would have occurred). They would still share a larger proportion of common ancestors with Ancient Egyptians(indigenous Africans from the region).

I'm saying this based on our current genetic knowledge of Ancient Egyptians and modern Egyptians populations.

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
are going to carry far more ancestry from the pharaohs than anyone else

You say "are going to" but in reality you have no idea. All the genetic analysis thus far contradict what you claim is "indisputable".

There's no ancient population in modern egypt that just happens to be completely isolated from the foreign admixtures (Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, etc and mainly muslim Arabs).

So even the populations you cite, they are heavily admixed with foreign invaders and migrants. Most of them are now muslim or christians and speak the arabic language. We know it by analyzing their DNA and those of Ancient Egyptian mummies.

All modern Egyptian populations are a nice admixture of foreign invaders/migrants and Ancient Egyptians. Something to be proud of because those are all great people like Romans, Greeks, Ancient Egyptians, Kushites, Assyrians, Persians, Bedouins, etc. Maybe the closest to Ancient Egyptians would be the Nubians still living along the Nile in upper egypt. Although those Nubians are not direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians or even Kushites for the most part (various level of admixtures would have occurred). They would still share a larger proportion of common ancestors with Ancient Egyptians(indigenous Africans from the region).

I'm saying this based on our current genetic knowledge of Ancient Egyptians and modern Egyptians populations.

I'm not arguing that the indigenous people in Southern Egypt are pristine representations of dynastic Egyptians. Of course the indigenous people of Southern Egypt would have some foreign admixture, but nobody outside Southern Egypt and some parts of North Sudan could be regarded as more genetically intimated with dynastic Egyptians.

I admittedly don't know to what extent the people in Southern Egypt [the areas I mentioned] have mixed with the various foreign conquerors and populations that have streamed into Egypt throughout the millennia, especially after the 7th century AD.

Are there genetic studies specifically dealing with the people in Southern Egypt? I'll have to look for them online.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
but nobody outside Southern Egypt and some parts of North Sudan could be regarded as more genetically intimated with dynastic Egyptians.

Maybe, maybe not. Those populations are already admixed to a large degree. Practice christianity or islam and speak arabic...

This is a current map of the Nubians living along the Nile:

 -

It's possible for other indigenous African populations sharing ancestors with Ancient Egyptians to be less admixed with foreign invaders and migrants than people in modern southern Egypt and northern Sudan and thus be genetically and culturally closer. I'm saying this because this is what the current genetic results, (BMJ, JAMA, DNA Tribes, Paabo, etc) seem to indicate.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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I'm not arguing that the indigenous people in Southern Egypt are pristine representations of dynastic Egyptians. Of course the indigenous people of Southern Egypt would have some foreign admixture, but nobody outside Southern Egypt and some parts of North Sudan could be regarded as more genetically intimated with dynastic Egyptians.

I admittedly don't know to what extent the people in Southern Egypt [the areas I mentioned] have mixed with the various foreign conquerors and populations that have streamed into Egypt throughout the millennia, especially after the 7th century AD.

Are there genetic studies specifically dealing with the people in Southern Egypt? I'll have to look for them online.


See this very same thread for said studies or at least
authors like Keita whose writings somewhere may reference such.


nobody outside Southern Egypt and some parts of North Sudan could be regarded as more genetically intimated with dynastic Egyptians.
^^Correct. as Egyptologists like Frank Yurco note,
as well as other studies such as (Godde 2009 etc)
the Nubians are ethnically the closest people to the Egyptians.
This info is already in place in this same database.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there genetic studies specifically dealing with the people in Southern Egypt? I'll have to look for them online.

Again see the pages in this database - the Gurna study below and
others for example, plus the DNATribes info and similar elsewhere
on ES.

 -

 -

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^^The problem is you can't use the mere existance of African lineages in Southern Egypt and Sudan as proof of Ancient Egyptians affiliations. Those African lineages could have made their way to modern Egypt after the Ancient Egyptian and Kushite empires. Kushite people themselves were not Ancient Egyptians. You can only use ancient DNA from Ancient Egyptian mummies to determine ethnic affiliations.

Nubians now living along the Nile are not even direct descendant of the Kushites (they don't speak a Kushite descendant language) although they share very close common ancestors with the Kushites and probably admixted with them. They share a common parent language (Nilo-saharan family). Those modern Nubians are the one who destroyed the Kushite empire collaborating with the Axumites.

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sudaniya
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Thanks, zarahan. The information you presented is very useful and eye opening. It just goes to show that academically the Eurocentrics no longer have a leg to stand on. They've been defeated in this field. I just wish African countries could put their money together to create films [for worldwide screening] in which ancient Egyptians are shown in their true form. I would love to see hand selected Egyptians in Luxor, Edfu, Esna, Aswan, the red sea coast and the Siwa oasis playing the role of dynastic Egyptians.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^For those who prefer scientific data instead of wishful thinking and eye-balling pictures.

Here's the Ancient DNA of the Kushite people (from Hassan 2009)

 -

M13, M60 and YAP are African lineages. M89 is an Eurasian lineage. Obviously the Eurasian lineages made their way among the Kushites after the fall of the Meroitic empire during the christian era. That's why we can see they start to appear during the Christian era.

This is scientific FACT. Zarahan and sudaniya prefer to live in a fantasy.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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^^^The problem is you can't use the mere existance of African lineages in Southern Egypt and Sudan as proof of Ancient Egyptians affiliations.
You can only use ancient DNA from Ancient Egyptian mummies to determine ethnic affiliations.


You don't have to use DNA studies, Skeletal, cranial and
archaeological data easily make the case. Why do you
erroneously assume that DNA data is the only valid type of data?

And DNA studies of modern people in Egypt also confirm
the presence of African lineages in southern Egypt
from ancient times. Again, why do you erroneously
assume that aDNA is the only valid data? The Gurna
study also confirms the case using DNA analysis of modem inhabitants: quote--

"Our results suggest that the Gurna population
has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic
structure from an ancestral East African population,
characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency.
The current structure of the Egyptian population
may be the result of further influence of neighbouring
populations on this ancestral population."


There was such an ancestral population in place,
from ancient East Africa which influenced ancient Egyptians.
Note- no aDNA is needed to make that case either.
Why do you insinuate that aDNA is some sort of "last word"
on everything? aDNA is just another line of evidence.


And why do you yourself use modern data elsewhere?
This is somewhat of a double standard you are manifesting.
When you were replying to Charlie Bass, who, without
the slightest bit of evidence you insist is not actually
Charlie Bass (another one of your supposed "special
revelations") you said:

On the contrary EVERYTHING points to mass settlement of the horn by Eurasians.

^^But you didn't use aDNA to make this claim but
regular DNA studies. Why now are you suddenly asserting
that nothing but aDNA will work to establish ancient
population origins or movements? You are talking
out of both sides of your mouth as usual.

and you also say:

E-P2 West African populations probably left East Africa somewhere before 10 000 years ago.

^^But to make this claim for 10,000 years ago you
do not use aDNA. How come you make the claim, if
aDNA is the only game in town as you now claim
above? Here again you are making contradictory statements.

 -

And who here says that "Nubians now living along
the Nile are not even direct descendant of the Kushites"

to quote you? This is yet another
strawman you are "debating" against, as is typical
of your Captain Obvious approach. Who doesn't know
that "Nubians now living along the Nile are not
even direct descendant of the Kushites"? Gee, is
this another "revelation" of yours Captain Obvious?
No one here is advancing any such argument except
you, building a strawman.


Yurco up above refers to ancient Nubians contemporary
with the ancient Egyptians not your strawman about
Nubians now today on the Nile.

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xyyman
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What are we arguing? The Archeological, Anthropological, Linguistic, Religious and now genetic evidence prove that the AEians are indigenous Africans and has absolutely no connection with modern Europeans. Not even close. Astonishingly not even the modern peoples of the Levant and North Africa really close connection with AEians.

The debate is long over. Only a fanatical Euronut will continue to argue for it....by using the word "Caucasoids". LOL!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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 -
The internal flow.. from Africa..

DNA study casts doubt on some claimed levels of back-migration from Asia
to Africa of R1b. The DNA marker claimed to have "back-flowed" solely from
Eurasia is better explained by migration from the South, WITHIN
Africa

QUOTE:

"Human Y chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup R1b1-P25, although
very common in Europe, are usually rare in Africa. However, recently
published studies have reported high frequencies of this haplogroup in the
central-western region of the African continent and proposed that this
represents a 'back-to-Africa' migration during prehistoric times. To obtain
a deeper insight into the history of these lineages, we characterised the
paternal genetic background of a population in Equatorial Guinea, a
Central-West African country located near the region in which the highest
frequencies of the R1b1 haplogroup in Africa have been found to date. In
our sample, the large majority (78.6%) of the sequences belong to
subclades in haplogroup E, which are the most frequent in Bantu groups.
However, the frequency of the R1b1 haplogroup in our sample (17.0%)
was higher than that previously observed for the majority of the African
continent. Of these R1b1 samples, nine are defined by the V88 marker,
which was recently discovered in Africa.

As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in
Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards
Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised
movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as
the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The
present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived
allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be
better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the
mid-Holocene."


--Gonzalez et al 2013. The genetic landscape of Equatorial
Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the
Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88.
Eur J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar;21(3):324-31.

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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:


DNA study casts doubt on some claimed levels of back-migration from Asia
to Africa of R1b. The DNA marker claimed to have "back-flowed" solely from
Eurasia is better explained by migration from the South, WITHIN
Africa

QUOTE:


your statement is false

R1b1c (R-V88) originates in Africa

The parent of R1b1c (R-V88)
>> is R1b

and R1b does not originate in Africa

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Note: "claimed levels" of R1b, which would cover "biodiversity"
claims that all variants of R1b including R-V88 came from outside Africa.

But for clarity- reload:

 -
The internal flow.. from Africa..

DNA study casts doubt on some claimed levels of back-migration from Asia
to Africa for all variants of R1b. The V88 DNA marker claimed to have "back-flowed"
solely from Eurasia is better explained by migration from the South, WITHIN
Africa

QUOTE:

"Human Y chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup R1b1-P25, although
very common in Europe, are usually rare in Africa. However, recently
published studies have reported high frequencies of this haplogroup in the
central-western region of the African continent and proposed that this
represents a 'back-to-Africa' migration during prehistoric times. To obtain
a deeper insight into the history of these lineages, we characterised the
paternal genetic background of a population in Equatorial Guinea, a
Central-West African country located near the region in which the highest
frequencies of the R1b1 haplogroup in Africa have been found to date. In
our sample, the large majority (78.6%) of the sequences belong to
subclades in haplogroup E, which are the most frequent in Bantu groups.
However, the frequency of the R1b1 haplogroup in our sample (17.0%)
was higher than that previously observed for the majority of the African
continent. Of these R1b1 samples, nine are defined by the V88 marker,
which was recently discovered in Africa.

As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in
Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards
Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised
movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as
the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The
present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived
allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be
better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the
mid-Holocene."


--Gonzalez et al 2013. The genetic landscape of Equatorial
Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the
Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88.
Eur J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar;21(3):324-31.

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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
A recent study entitled The Role of Recent Admixture in Forming the Contemporary West Eurasian Genomic Landscape has been published pointing out multiple waves of admixture in Western Europe:

quote:

We investigated the effect of admixture—the process of mixing of haplotypes between genetically differentiated ancestral groups—in each of these clusters using GLOBETROTTER. First, we painted each recipient individual’s chromosomes such that they were represented as mosaics of chunks of different ancestry from a set of donor groups that included all 18 World Regions together with other clusters from within West Eurasia. We then used summaries of the amount of genome-wide donor ancestry from these mosaics, together with information on the lengths and distributions of specific ancestral chunks, to infer whether admixture is likely to have occurred in a recipient group and to characterize the composition and proportion that each donor group contributed to the sources of the admixture event.

...

The vast majority of clusters (78%; 64 out of 82) showed evidence of admixture, suggesting that admixture-facilitated gene flow is a fundamental property of almost all West Eurasian groups (Tables S4 and S5; Supplemental Information). Here, we discuss the broader patterns of ancestry across West Eurasia, with a more detailed assessment of admixture events provided in the Supplemental Information. Throughout, we refer to the inferred groups characterized by GLOBETROTTER as contributing to an admixture event as 'sources' and the sampled groups contributing ancestry to these sources as “donors.” It is also important to note that in the discussion presented below, we use current-day geographic labels to describe ancestry of historical sources of admixture. When we describe the ancestry of a particular source as, for example, 'Mongolian,' this is a convenient but less precise proxy for 'ancestry in a historical group that is related to the ancestry that we observe in contemporary Mongolian populations today.' This shorthand aids reading, but one must bear in mind that while the inferred sources of admixture are likely to be closely related genetically to the true historical admixing groups, because of subsequent population movements and migration, they may be less closely related geographically to the original source of that ancestry.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2015.08.007
ABSTRACT
Over the past few years, studies of DNA isolated from human fossils and archaeological remains have generated considerable novel insight into the history of our species. Several landmark papers have described the genomes of ancient human ancestors and have demonstrated that contemporary humans harbour genetic material from ancient close relatives, the Neanderthals and Denisovans, and that ancient human individuals are often genetically distinct from nearby extant populations whilst also showing affinities with populations from further afield. Across West Eurasia, there is growing genetic evidence of large-scale, dynamic population movements over the period between 10,000 to 2,000 years ago, such that the ancestry across present-day populations is likely to be a mixture of several ancient groups. Whilst these efforts are bringing the details of West Eurasian prehistory into increasing focus, studies aimed at understanding the processes behind the generation of the current West Eurasian genetic landscape have been limited by the number of populations sampled, or have been either too regional or global in their outlook. Here, using recently described haplotype-based techniques, we present the results of a systematic survey of recent admixture history across Western Eurasia and show that admixture is a universal property across almost all groups. Admixture in all regions except North Western Europe involved the influx of genetic material from outside of West Eurasia, which we date to specific time periods. Within Northern, Western, and Central Europe, admixture tended to occur between local groups during the period 300 to 1200CE. Comparisons of the genetic profiles of West Eurasians before and after admixture show that population movements within the last 1500 years are likely to have maintained differentiation amongst groups. Our analysis provides a timeline of the gene flow events that have generated the contemporary genetic landscape of West Eurasia.

-- Busby et al 2015. Role of Recent Admixture in Forming the Contemporary West Eurasian Genomic Landscape. Current Bio. 2015

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R1b comes from outside Africa and is a sub clade of R-M207

A sub clade of R1b is the V88 mutation and it evolved from R1b while inside Africa

The Gonzalez article only regards the spread direction of V88 while in Africa
Not the origin of the parent of the V88 allele which is Haplogroup R


The genetic landscape of Equatorial
Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the
Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar;21(3):324-31.
Gonzalez et al 2013

Apart from the aforementioned haplogroups, some studies have reported unexpectedly high frequencies of haplogroup R1b1-P25 in some African populations.5, 6, 7 This haplogroup is thought to have originated in Europe, and its high frequencies in Central-West African countries have been explained through a migration back to Africa in prehistoric times, mediated in Africa by speakers of the Chadic family of Afro-Asiatic languages.6, 7 The arrival of this ethnic group to Lake Chad from the Proto-Afro-Asiatic homeland in Eastern Africa has been explained by two different hypotheses.

Blench's theory (the ‘inter-Saharan' hypothesis)8 suggests that Chadic speakers arrived at the Chad Basin through an east to west migration through the Sahel,

whereas Ehret's theory (the ‘Trans-Saharan' hypothesis)9 suggests that they arrived from the north through a migration across the Sahara desert. The latter hypothesis has been used as the explanation for the high frequencies of the R1b1-P25 haplogroup in Central-West Africa, mainly due to its presence in speakers of other Afro-Asiatic languages in North Africa.7, 10 Nevertheless, there is still an on-going debate about the most suitable explanation for these observations...

The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be
better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the
mid-Holocene....

According to Blench's ‘inter-Saharan' hypothesis, Chadic speakers originated during the eastward migration of a pastoralist Cushitic group, from the Nile towards the Lake Chad, with subsequent dispersion in different directions around the lake.





______________________________

^^ As we can see the paper advocates R. Blench's "inter-Saharan hypothesis" , that is the conclusion
and what Gonzalez was doing is trying to correlate Blench's migration theory with analysis of DNA, the allele V88

The Inter-Saharan Hypothesis, Roger Blench, 1999

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----------------------------

quote:
[from the] INTRODUCTION

Blench’s theory (the ‘inter-Saharan’ hypothesis)8 suggests that
Chadic speakers arrived at the Chad Basin through an
east to west migration through the Sahel,

Ehret’s theory (the ‘Trans-Saharan’ hypothesis)9
suggests that
they arrived from the north through a
migration across the Sahara desert.


[from] The origin of the V88 lineages [section]

the arrival of Chadic groups in the Lake Chad Basin,
coming
from the North,

is equally likely as the alternative hypothesis of a

migration mediated by the Proto-Chadic speaking people coming
from East to West Africa

.


my recap


Blench's is as likely as Ehret's

Chadics from the north
is as likely as
Proto-Chadics from the east

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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^^The problem is you can't use the mere existance of African lineages in Southern Egypt and Sudan as proof of Ancient Egyptians affiliations.
You can only use ancient DNA from Ancient Egyptian mummies to determine ethnic affiliations.


you don't have to use DNA studies, Skeletal, cranial and
archaeological data easily make the case. Why do you
erroneously assume that DNA data is the only valid type of data?

First this is not my quote. The part you cut off answer your question: The problem is you can't use the mere existance of African lineages in Southern Egypt and Sudan as proof of Ancient Egyptians affiliations. Those African lineages could have made their way to modern Egypt after the Ancient Egyptian and Kushite empires.

My reply was about avoiding using modern populations as proxy for ancient populations in DNA studies which (as you well know) is not a right thing to do due to demographic changes in the last 6000 years in modern Egypt. You perfectly know I made many threads about other aspects:

Common Origin of black Africans, Ancient Egyptians and Kushites people
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009076

or recently here:

Place of Origin of Ancient Egypt:Western Desert (Nabta Playa,Cave of Swimmers/Beasts)
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009284

As well as many other threads and posts.

==============================================

But it is true that ancient DNA do provide the last word. Ancient DNA provides us with the greatest discriminative power to attest ethnic affiliations.

Unrelated people can share the same skin color, facial features or limb proportion but they can't share the same DNA. DNA are passed down from parents to child. That's why DNA are used in paternity test, to identify suspects/victims in criminal investigations, or by DNA ancestry company.

So yes, Ancient DNA taken from actual Ancient Egyptian mummies are the best way to identify the ethnic affiliations of Ancient Egyptians.

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S. Benazzi, et al. 2011. Early dispersal of modern humans in Europe and
implications for Neanderthal behaviour. Nature, 479 (2011), pp. 525–528

Abstract

The appearance of anatomically modern humans in Europe and the
nature of the transition from the Middle to Upper Palaeolithic are matters
of intense debate. Most researchers accept that before the arrival of
anatomically modern humans, Neanderthals had adopted several
'transitional' technocomplexes. Two of these, the Uluzzian of southern
Europe and the Châtelperronian of western Europe, are key to current
interpretations regarding the timing of arrival of anatomically modern
humans in the region and their potential interaction with Neanderthal
populations. They are also central to current debates regarding the
cognitive abilities of Neanderthals and the reasons behind their
extinction1-6. However, the actual fossil evidence associated with these
assemblages is scant and fragmentary 7-10, and recent work has
questioned the attribution of the Châtelperronian to Neanderthals on the
basis of taphonomic mixing and lithic analysis 11,12. Here we reanalyse
the deciduous molars from the Grotta del Cavallo (southern Italy),
associated with the Uluzzian and originally classified as Neanderthal
13,14.

Using two independent morphometric methods based on
microtomographic data, we show that the Cavallo specimens can be
attributed to anatomically modern humans. The secure context of the teeth
provides crucial evidence that the makers of the Uluzzian technocomplex
were therefore not Neanderthals. In addition, new chronometric data for
the Uluzzian layers of Grotta del Cavallo obtained from associated shell
beads and included within a Bayesian age model show that the teeth must
date to 45,000-43,000 calendar years before present. The Cavallo
human remains are therefore the oldest known European anatomically
modern humans, confirming a rapid dispersal of modern humans across
the continent before the Aurignacian and the disappearance of
Neanderthals.


 -
Grotta del Cavallo- Southern Italy

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2014 Italian research shows close relations between Nubian and Egyptian cultures

 -

QUOTE:
"The distinction between an Egyptian and a Nubian
identity is something connected to the rise of
the Naqada culture in the first half of the fourth
millennium BCE. During the previous millennium
such a distinction would have not made sense. As
previously stated, the Tarifian, Badarian and Tasian
cultures of Middle and Upper Egypt have strong
ties with rhe Nubian/Nilotic pastoral tradition,
a
as can be inferred, for instance, by the very
similar pottery, economy and settlement pattern
and by the latest findings in the deserts surrounding
the Egyptian Nile valley (Gatto 2011b, 2012a, b, 2013). "

FROM:
--Maria Gatto 2014. Cultural entanglement at the
dawn of the Egyptian history: A View from the Nile
First Cataract Region (IN: Origini - XXXVI: 93-123-
Preistoria e protostoria delle civiltà antiche).

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^^This fact is mentioned in many documents like here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008903

What interesting thing I like to do about this is comparing the Ancient Egyptians and Kushites soldiers from the Tomb of Mesehti from the 11th Dynasty. Since it's from the same tomb and period. They have been done with the same artistic style and convention (we know AEians are big on artistic convention since they see writing as divine/religious).

Kushite soldiers:
http://www.theathertons.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/aswan_nubian_museum_warriors.jpg

Ancient Egyptian soldiers.
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w513/Amunratheultimate/Ancient%20Kemet%208/WoodenNubianArchers11thDynastyTombofMesehtiflksc.jpg

The images are too big so you will have to click on them.

You can compare the skin color and facial features (even if they are not meant to be realistic). The Kushite archers seem to be slightly darker with head bands and colored belts. They also carry different weapons.

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Good observation. The two are very similar. But the
pic titles both reference Nubian fighting men. Which
specific set is from Egypt? The first or the second?

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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Good observation. The two are very similar. But the
pic titles both reference Nubian fighting men. Which
specific set is from Egypt? The first or the second?

Sorry, I didn't notice, it's a mistake when I saved the picture I gave it a wrong name. The second picture are not archers or Kushites. Clearly they are Ancient Egyptian soldiers/spearmen from the 11th Dynasty (it can easily be googled using Mesehti).
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 -

Conservative Encyclopedia shows Ancient Egyptian religion derives
from African foundation:


"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow
and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped
figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some
rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground,"
and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt)
presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in
southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."

"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or
Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother."
There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous
animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods)
and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc)
probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows
some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e.,
medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees,
regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element).
Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe,
others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk).“

--Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian
Religion" , pg 506-508


Conservative scholars show numerous links between Ancient Egyptian
and African cultures


".. but his [Frankfort's] frequent citations from African ethnography- over
60 are listed in the index- demonstrate that there is a powerful resonance
between recent African concepts and practice on one hand, and ancient
Egyptian kingship and religion on the other.."

Rowlands (Chapter 4) provides much additional evidence suggesting that
'sub-Saharan Africa and Ancient Egypt share certain commonalities in
substantiative images and ideas, yet whose cultural forms display
differences consistent with perhaps millennia of historical divergence and
institutionalization'.

"First, kingship in Egypt was 'the channel through which the powers of
nature flowed into the body politic to bring human endeavour to fruition'
and thus was closely analogous to the widespread African belief that
'chieftains entertain closer relationship with the powers in nature than
other men' (Frankfort 1948: 33, ch. 2). Second, the Egyptian king's
metaphorical identification as an all powerful bull who tramples his
enemies and inseminates his cow-mother to achieve regeneration was
derived from Egyptian ideas and beliefs abut cattle for which best parallels
can be found in some, but not all, recent African societies.."

"Like the chiefs discussed by Rowlands, the king combines 'life giving
forces with the power to kill" (Rowlands, Chapter 4:52). Overall, this
Egyptian concept of kingship, so akin to African models, seems very
different to that held in the ancient Near East (Frankfort 1948; Postgate
1995)"

"In conclusion, there is a relative abundance of ancient materials relevant
to contact and influence, as well as striking correlations between ancient
Egyptian civilization and the ethnography of recent and current
sub-Saharan communities, chiefdoms and states... Perhaps the fact that
commonalities do exist suggests that, because of great time depth and
different organization, these commonalities may result from inherently
African processes."
--David O'Connor, Andrew Reid (2007) ANCIENT EGYPT IN AFRICA.
pp 15-22


Conservative Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt shows ancient
Egypt derived from an African cultural foundation


“The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples,
not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely
related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called
Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a
close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as
far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an
African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage,
including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with
dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known
as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this
time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early
Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese)
and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture
of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with
characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with
incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern
African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art,
circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African
substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
-- Oxford Encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Vol 3.2001. p.28

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