New mtDNA study shows movement from Africa into Spain in Early Holocene- some 10,000 years ago- long before any Phonecian, Roman, Arab or colonial era
"Determining the timing, identity and direction of migrations in the Mediterranean Basin, the role of “migratory routes” in and among regions of Africa, Europe and Asia, and the effects of sex-specific behaviors of population movements have important implications for our understanding of the present human genetic diversity. A crucial component of the Mediterranean world is its westernmost region. Clear features of transcontinental ancient contacts between North African and Iberian populations surrounding the maritime region of Gibraltar Strait have been identified from archeological data. The attempt to discern origin and dates of migration between close geographically related regions has been a challenge in the field of uniparental-based population genetics..
To this end, in the present work we have screened entire mtDNA sequences belonging to U6, M1 and L haplogroups in Andalusians —from Huelva and Granada provinces—and Moroccan Berbers. We present here pioneer data and interpretations on the role of NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula regarding the time of origin, number of founders and expansion directions of these specific markers. The estimated entrance of the North African U6 lineages into Iberia at 10 ky correlates well with other L African clades, indicating that U6 and some L lineages moved together from Africa to Iberia in the Early Holocene. Still, founder analysis highlights that the high sharing of lineages between North Africa and Iberia results from a complex process continued through time, impairing simplistic interpretations. In particular, our work supports the existence of an ancient, frequently denied, bridge connecting the Maghreb and Andalusia." --Hernández et al 2015. Early Holocenic and Historic mtDNA African Signatures in the Iberian Peninsula: The Andalusian Region as a Paradigm. PLoS ONE 10(10)
Most visible ancient African influences in Spain seem more to the west in some mtDNA studies. Waterborne migrations across the Mediterranean was quite possible and documented long before any Arab or Moorish appearance
"The attractive prehistory and history of Andalusia, the widest and most populated region of Spain, makes its present-day human population a prominent objective to detect scenarios of population substructure and to examine the expected impact of African and other Mediterranean populations on the Iberian gene pool. Consistently with the geographical proximity between southern Spain and Africa, previous published studies have obtained results that show evidences of African-linked mtDNA lineages among Andalusians as well as high levels of diversity,either analyzing regional general samples [22, 23, 24] or focusing on other inland territories within the region [16]. Our mitochondrial data presented here will give stronger evidences for a more visible African influence in the west than in the east of Andalusia.. Western Andalusians (from Huelva, present study) register the highest frequencies (14.6%) of African lineages reported until now in the Iberian Peninsula and all over the European continent.
"Some researchers (e.g. [53, 54], among others) have proposed a sea route as the most probable way for Neolithic entrance in Iberia. This process was phased, using sea navigation and boats big enough to transport men, women, and the ‘Neolithic package’ in a movement probably originated in the Gulf of Genoa. Similar methods may have been used between Andalusia and Morocco. Altogether, these events suggest that the interactions between Moroccan and Andalusian populations have been old, continuous, in both ways and with different origins... In the sub-Saharan L macrohaplogroup network (Figure 4B), lineage L1b is characterized by the relevant case number contained in the core. According to [50], its estimated coalescence time is 9.7 kya, so its expansion out of Africa should have taken place during or after Neolithic age. The L1b star-like shape indicates a population expansion, and those migrations which contributed to shape it were not so recent, thus Muslim expansion or more recent migrations accounting for this would not be the main causal reason." --Hernández et al 2014. Human maternal heritage in Andalusia (Spain.. BMC Genetics 15:11
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"The use of nsibidi is that of ordinary writing. I have in my possession a copy of the record of a court case from a town of Enion [Enyong] taken down in it, and every detail, except the evidence, is most graphically described- the parties in the case, the witnesses, the dilemma of the chief who tried it, his sending out messengers to call other chiefs to help him, the finding of the court and the joy of the successful litigants and of their friends.." --J. K., Macgregor (January-June 1909). "Some Notes on Nsibidi.". Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute 39: 209-219.
“Elphinstone Daryell, however argues that "many of the signs reproduced are connected with one another and form short stories. He gives several examples of how this is done and one folktale in particular is worthy of mention- the story of the miracle child, born from his mother's knee, who is disowned by his father. In this version the child kills his father with a spear and disappears up a long rope into the sky. This is all skilfullly narrated by the clever assembling of four geometrically patterned symbols, each one representing a section of the story.. As has been shown, writing existed- writing that was not unrelated to literature, and that was pictographic. Side by side with this existed highly developed forms of writing which were in some cases applied to literature.“ -- The Black Mind: A History of African Literature. 1974. O.R. Dathorne, Professor of English, University of Kentucky, University of Minnesota Press. Cite- [Dayrell, Elphinstone (July-December 1911). "Further Notes on 'Nsibidi Signs with Their Meanings from the Ikom District, Southern Nigeria". Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute 41: 521-540]
"Nsidibi was a script found among a number of Cross River peoples which owed nothing to foreign exemplars- each symbol is an ideograph, as in Chinese. Because each symbol represented a concept, it could be used between peopes speaking different anguages; over 500 signs are recorded, and there is reason to believe that they were only a small partof the whole. There are suggestions that it was used by the Ekpe society but there is a record of a school where children were taught signs. A curious aspect of Nsibidi, as recorded by three separate observers in the early twentieth century, was that many of the signs dealth with love affairs! It seems likely that ideographs dealing with religion and war were kept secret- and that the choice of signs to explain to European officials were an elaborate joke, as well as a way of protecting the realm of the secret/sacred from outsiders." --A History of African Societies to 1870. Elizabeth Isichei, 1997. Professor, University of Otago, New Zealand. Cambridge University Press.
“The Nsibidi signs used by secret societies in various language groups in southern Nigeria, e.g. the Igbo, Efik, and Ekoi have been considered by some to be of a similar pictographic nature, but others have maintained it to be true writing, based on a logographic or syllabary system." -- Gregersen, Edgar A. (1977). Language in Africa: An introductory survey. p. 176.
"However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D'Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many goldweights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system. As with the Malian systems of graphic signs, knowledge of nsibidi was often acquired within the initiation societies, but unlike the Malian ones, nsibidi signs were often tattooed on the body or dramatically enacted through gestures." --Kevin Shllingford (2004) "Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa" - Encyclopedia of African History
Nsibidi is linked not with some Arabs that showed up, but with ancient cultural artifacts and traditions in place for millennia.
The Ikom monoliths in Nigeria for example, frequently show several nsibidi designs such as carefully rendered concentric circles, spirals, lozenges, and other discrete figures. These have been dated by some scholars to 120-220 AD. (Source: Alok and Emangabe stone monoliths: Ikom, Cross River State of Nigeria,-Ezio Bassani, Arte in Africa (Modena: Edizioni Panini, 1986), 103. )
Other objects such as terra cotta carvings and pottery yield similarly early date ranges corresponding to the monoliths- stretching from 450AD- showing a long thread of ancient continuity into the modern era- again pointing to their ancient indigenous West African provenance long before any Europeans or Arabs appeared.
"The Calabar terracottas, found at the other end of the Cross River basin, offer additional early evidence of nsibidi... there are now five radiocarbon dates from Calabar and two from the nearby village of Okang Mbang that generally corroborate each other, and which are associated with hundreds of terracottas that display a considerable range of designs. Combined, the dates encompass the period ca. 450 A.D - 1440 A.D (Fig. 1.5)... When considered together, the individual Calabar results overlap significantly. For example, all five urban Calabar dates overlap in the eighth century, while two of them extend into the eleventh century, where the two Okang Mbang dates begin. Both Okang Mbang dates then correspond until the turn of the fourteenth century.
Thus, if what the archaeological evidence strongly suggests-that nsibidi is indeed a modern iteration of the iconography found on the terracottas-then nsibidi is much older, even more complex, and was distributed over a broader area than previously considered. In short, there is now physical evidence that nsibidi was already a sophisticated phenomenon fifteen hundred years ago! This is remarkable in light of what is currently known about indigenous scripts in sub-Saharan Africa and, therefore, these objects further (and strongly) refute the idea that Africans had no writing until the arrival of Europeans. If modern practices are anything to go by, these signs were not just found on ceramics, but also appeared on wood sculptures, calabashes, textiles, earthen architecture, and the human body, to name just a few examples that would not be expected to survive in the archaeological record of a tropical area such as Calabar.. it is telling that Amanda Carlson, [2003- Nsibiri, gender, and literacy] in her doctoral dissertation on the implications of nsibidi usage among the Ejagham, describes fluency with such signs as literacy." --Slogar C. 2005. ICONOGRAPHY AND CONTINUITY IN WEST AFRICA- CALABAR TERRACOTTAS AND THE ARTS OF THE CROSS RIVER REGION OF NIGERIA/CAMEROON. University of Maryland. 2005.
Africa's Nile Valley shares in creation of the historic alphabet
"Discoveries by Gunter Dreyer of the German Archaeological Institute suggest that the origin of Egyptian writing needs to be reexamined, offering the possibility that the idea of writing was developed in Egypt several centuries before it occurred in the Near East. Inscriptions from hundreds of pots and labels found at the royal cemetery at Abydos show some hieroglyphic writing as far back as 3400 BCE, with most occurring about 3200 BCE. Sumerian writing seems to have begun about 3100 BCE. The Egyptians formed and used writing in a different way than the Asians. The linguistic pictographs of Sumer were rudimentary were used primarily used for commerce. Those of Egypt were more representational of real objects and were primarily employed to identify kings, tombs and the like.
A remarkable find involving early experiments with alphabetic writing in Egypt has been recently made by John C. Darnell, an Egyptologist at Yale University, and his wife Deborah. Inscriptions discovered in the limestone cliffs on an ancient road between Thebes and Abydos, a route once heavily traveled by Asian traders and mercenaries in the Egyptian desert, are in a Semitic script with Egyptian influences. Dated between 1900 and 1000 BCE, they are two or three centuries older than previous evidence of an alphabet in the Semitic-speaking territory of the Sinai Peninsula or in the Syria-Palestine region occupied by the Canaanites. While there have always been indications that Semites were inventors of the alphabet, researchers had heretofore assumed that it was developed in their own lands by borrowing and simplifying Egyptian hieroglyphs. Instead Darnell's discovery now suggests that, working with Semitic speakers in Egypt, native scribes simplified formal pictographic Egyptian writing and modified the symbols into an early alphabet using a semi-cursive form commonly used in the Middle Kingdom."
--Martin Isler (2001). Sticks, stones, and shadows: building the Egyptian pyramids. Univ of Oklahoma PRess. p. 56
The Egyptian Western Desert- location of Egyptian military scripts adopted by both Egyptian scribes and Semitic speakers into alphabetic forms http://www.codex99.com/typography/11.html
"However, now with the recovery of alphabetic writing from the Egyptian Western Desert, the fairly high degree of literacy in Egyptian (knowledge of hieratic, and a hybrid of hieratic and hieroglyphic scripts as well) presumed by these texts, and the well known Asiatic pres-ence within Egypt proper from the early Dynastic periods onwards, strongly suggest that it is to Egypt itself that we must look for the geographi-cal home of alphabetic writing. More specifically, the Bebi inscription and its immediate neighbors offer tantalizing clues about the context in which Semitic-speaking Asiatics adopted and adapted certain aspects of the Egyptian writing system for the needs of their own language(s). The Egyptian military, known both to have employed Asiatics (as the Bebi inscription so wonderfully attests) and to have included scribes, would provide one likely context in which Western Asiatic Semitic language speakers could have learned and eventually adapted the Egyptian writing system. Indeed, the prominence of lapidary hieratic, the form of hieratic utilized by army scribes, as models for alphabetic forms at the Wadi el-Hől (and at Serabit).." --J. Darnell et al. 2005. Two Early Alphabetic Inscriptions from the Wadi el-Hol: New Evidence for the Origin of the Alphabet from the Western Desert of Egypt, Annual of the American Schools of Oriental Research 2005.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^^Do you have any info on the Bassa script that was used in Liberia? I heard it goes as far back as antiquity especially during the Carthage period.
Also how do you make those images?
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Anyways VERY good source. I didn't know the Nsibidi was that old. There are many non-Arabic writing systems in West Africa, but most I seen seem to be recent.
But yeah debunks the myth of a Africa without a writing system.
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Imgur has some good photo tools. DOn't have anything on Bassa script immediately at hand.
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ROUNDUP: KEITA ON EUROCENTRIC DOUBLE STANDARDS IN STUDYING AFRICA
"“Black Africa,” as usually presented, also is a problematic cultural and biological construct, and a product of philosophical idealism, with an associated set of fixed ideas about phenotypes, culture, and geography. “Black African,” biologically speaking, has been frequently restricted to the extreme “Negro” morphotype, as though this were a biological unit, and below a certain latitude; this would be analogous to “White European” being restricted to the “Nordic” or “East Baltic” phenotype above a certain latitude.
Modern biology, ancient Saharan art and remains, classical European writers and artifacts, and ancient Maghrebian and Nile Valley remains and archaeology make problematic the boundaries of a “Black African” entity in terms of geography, culture, or biological characteristics in the ancient period (see reviews in Snowden, 1970; Hiernaux, 1975; Keita, 1990). “Subsaharan” is not a terminological improvement, since “Blacks” were not confined below any particular latitude. For example, there is morphological continuity of Negroid traits from the later Paleolithic through early dynastic periods in southern Egypt & Nubia (see descriptions in Thoma, 1984; Stewart, 1985; Anderson, 1968; Stoessiger, 1927; Strouhal, 1968; Morant, 1925). Moreover, as Snowden (1970) notes, “Blacks” were described in ancient Carthage and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains, all at the latitude of northern Egypt." --Keita 1992. Further studies of ancient crania from North Africa. AJPA 87:245-254
"Another example of the use of a socially constructed typological paradigm is in studies of the Nile Valley populations in which the concept of a biological African is restricted to those with a particular craniometric pattern (called in the past the 'True Negro' though no 'True White' was ever defined). Early Nubians, Egyptians, and even Somalians are viewed essentially as non-Africans, when in fact numerous lines of evidence and an evolutionary model make them a part of African biocultural/biogeographical history. The diversity of 'authentic' Africans is a reality. This diversity prevents biogeographical/biohistorical Africans from clustering into a single unit, no matter the kind of data." -- (The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence, S. O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles, American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 99, No. 3 (Sep., 1997), pp. 534-544)
"..presents all tropical Africans with narrower noses and faces as being related to or descended from external, ultimately non-African peoples. However, narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations have long been resident in Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin need not be sought elsewhere. These traits are also indigenous. The variability in tropical Africa is expectedly naturally high. Given their longstanding presence, narrow noses and faces cannot be deemed `non-African." --(S.O.Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993), page 134 )
"Another example of the use of a socially constructed typological paradigm is in studies of the Nile Valley populations in which the concept of a biological African is restricted to those with a particular craniometric pattern (called in the past the 'True African' though no 'True White' was ever defined). Early Nubians, Egyptians, and even Somalians are viewed essentially as non-Africans, when in fact numerous lines of evidence and an evolutionary model make them a part of African biocultural/biogeographical history. The diversity of 'authentic' Africans is a reality. This diversity prevents biogeographical/biohistorical Africans from clustering into a single unit, no matter the kind of data." ---Keita and Kittles. "The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence." American Anthropologist 99, no. 3 (September 1997): 534-544
"This gene-language study is further compro-mised by poor representation of the members of some language families and the use of the race constructs, which force boundaries onto a seamless biocultural and historical matrix with extensive geographical parame-ters. Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues (1988) do not ac-curately represent the Afro-Asiatic family because they exclude Chadic, Omotic, and Cushitic speakers, thereby giving the illusion that Ethiopians are an anomaly, being genetically Africans (but mixed) who also speak the lan-guages of Caucasians (Afro-Asiatic!?) (Armstrong 1990). An evolutionary model explains the geographical range of Afro-Asiatic speakers as one overlaying gradients of genetic differentiation, which a racial model breaks into discrete units that cannot be shown to have ever existed.
Another example of ambiguous branching patterns and clusters within inferred phylogenies is seen in the work of Masatoshi Nei and K. Roychoudhury (1993). Their study, which utilized gene-frequency data from samples derived from the traditional racial constructs, revealed poor support from bootstrap tests for a cluster designated Caucasian and consisting of European and Middle Eastern populations. Although this poor support is more reflective of the inadequacy of typological con-structs and racial thinking, the investigators excluded the non-European samples and subsequently obtained results more satisfying to them. The data in effect were tailored to fit into the traditional racial schema. Other examples of the persistence of racial think-ing may easily be identified. The examples cited above illustrate this problem in otherwise interesting work. The issue is not simply one of terminology. The racial approach clearly does not contribute to an under-standing of biohistorical processes, especially in Africa, which cannot be defined by one trait or cluster of traits, on any level: serogenetic, mtDNA, Y chromosome, nu-clear DNA, odontometric, odontomorphological, craniometrie, craniomorphological, hair form, or skin color." --The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence, S. O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles, American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 99, No. 3 (Sep., 1997), pp. 534-544
In older work, the same pattern of Eurocentric manipulation emerges. Reports from the field exclude or downplay "negroid" samples
"Nutter (1958), using the Penrose statistic, demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari crania, both regarded as Negroid, were almost identical and that these were most similar to the Negroid Nubian series from Kerma studied by Collett (1933). [Collett, not accepting variability, excluded "clear negro" crania found in the Kerma series from her analysis, as did Morant (1925), implying that they were foreign.].. --Keita, S. O. Y, 1995. "A brief review of studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships,
Another method of Eurocentric manipulation is to mislabel the negro data as "Mediterranean"
"Analyses of Egyptian crania are numerous. Vercoutter (1978) notes that ancient Egyptian crania have frequently all been "lumped (implicitly or explicitly) as Mediterranean, although Negroid remains are recorded in substantial numbers by many workers... --S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa
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“Archaeological and genetic evidence indicate that anatomically modern humans arrived in Europe from an African source at least 45,000 years ago, following the initial dispersal out of Africa [1], [2]. However, it is known that Southern Europeans and Levantines (people from modern day Palestine, Israel, Syria and Jordan) have also inherited genetic material of African origin due to subsequent migrations. One line of evidence comes from Y-chromosome [3] and mitochondrial DNA analyses [4]–[6]. These have identified haplogroups that are characteristic of sub-Saharan Africans in Southern Europeans and Levantines but not in Northern Europeans [7]. Auton et al. [8] presented nuclear genome-based evidence for sharing of sub-Saharan African ancestry in some West Eurasians, by identifying a North-South gradient of haplotype sharing between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans, with the highest proportion of haplotype sharing observed in south/southwestern Europe… we use “African mixture” to refer to gene flow into West Eurasians since the divergence of the latter from East Asians; thus, we are not referring to the much older dispersal out of Africa ∼45,000 years ago but instead to migrations that have occurred since that time. The finding of sub-Saharan African ancestry in West Eurasians predicts that there will be a signature of admixture LD in the populations that experienced this mixture. That is, there will be LD between all markers that are highly differentiated between the two ancestral populations and the allele will be strongly correlated to the local ancestry [23]. Hence, there will be chromosomal segments of African ancestry with lengths that reflect the number of recombination events that have occurred since mixture, and thus can be used to estimate an admixture date. Figure 3 shows that this expected pattern is observed empirically in the decay of LD in four example West Eurasian populations, where we enhance the effects of admixture LD by weighting the SNP comparisons by frequency difference between the ancestral Africans (YRI) and ancestral West Eurasians (CEU). In the Southern European, Jewish and Levantine populations, this procedure produces clear evidence of admixture LD (Figure 3).. “We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.” --- Moorjani, et al. 2011. The history of African gene flow into southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews. PLoS Genet. 7, e1001373
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"The phenotypic attributes of GD13a are similar to the neighbouring Anatolian early farmers ****and *** Caucasus Hunter)Gatherers. Based on diagnostic SNPs, she had dark, black hair and brown eyes (see Supplementary). She lacked the derived variant (rs16891982) of the SLC45A2 gene associated with light skin pigmentation but had at least one copy of the derived SLC24A5 allele (rs1426654) associated with the same trait. The derived SLC24A5 variant has been found in both Neolithic farmer and Caucasus hunter)gatherer groups (5, 21, 26)suggesting that it was already at appreciable frequency before these populations diverged. Finally, she did not have the most common European variant of the LCT gene (rs4988235) associated with the ability to digest raw milk, consistent with the later emergence of this adaptation (5, 21, 23). "
--Llorente et al 2016. The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros. Biorxiv preprint 2016
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Archaeological Evidence Shows some Meriotic Influence may have ranged down into Central Africa. The move of the Sahara southward obscures cultures once farther north- Quote:
"Further south in Roseires area, Chattaway reported a number of sites, which might be of interest to this question after the exploration (Chattaway 1930: 259-264).. The most recent discoveries of datable sites and objects south of Khartoum suggest the presence of Napatans and Meroites along the Blue and White Niles, probably south of Kosti (Eisa 1987: 155-162; 1990). Such presence is also attested by the discoveries of the Wellcome Expeditions to the Sennar area (Gebel Moya, Abu Geili village and recently the objects found near Grisly village), and by the site and objects of El Getina (site of Mahmoud El Araki). The study of those objects as well as pottery sherds and bricks showed the strong probability of their Napatan and Meroitic affinities. Some other sites between El Getaina and El Kawa could be identified (Ni'ma, Wad el Zaki, Hashaba.. etc).
Near the town of El Kawa we have the site of Hilat Said, where golden objects were found which date most probably to the Napatan period (the inscription says: Imn-r df nh mj r - "God Amun Re gives life like Re', which seems to be a life-scarab) (Eisa 1994). Another scarab was found in Kosti town which may be of the same data as that of Kawa (Arkell 1961: 136-7). South of Kosti the investigations of Else Kleppe showed the presence of archaeological material o a different nature (of probably Meroitic date) (in El Rank area, Upper Nile province; Kleppe 1982a; 1982) as well as in the western Sudan.. So it seems that the White Nile was the route of penetration of the Kushites to these southern regions and the interior of Central Africa."
--Steffen Wenig (1992). Studien zum antiken Sudan. Akten der Internationalen Tagung für meroitische Forschungen vom 14. bis 19. 367-368- September 1992 . IN: Meroitica, v15, 1999
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Cameroon: named for River of Prawns(shrimp) = Rio Cameroes by Portugese explorer Franciso Poo. I'd thought it was a local name. Possible link to Meroe?
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More precision needed. If Kemet means black land, HOW PRECISELY is it related to "Djibouti" which seems to link with "cannibal"or "pot" or "jab" or something else according to various sources? https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=233866
And if you are picking out various sound matches associations, why is your particular sound match claim more authoritative than a sound match with something from Arabia or India? Try to show the relevant association and link between the two DIRECTLY and PRECISELY. Not a mass of stuff on something peripheral, but the two words or terms- Kemet and Djibouti.
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I've run into trouble twice with using the database where quotations from studies have been paraphrased or some sections omitted. It would ve really helpful if quotes from studies were verbatim as they appeared as anything less makes people using the database look deceptive.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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Maybe but I don't see that in many places. Matter of fact, most people using "the base" have been using it correctly and have achieved success. The actual quotations are in quote marks, and the summaries are in bold. Everything is pretty clear. Sometimes heedless copying and pasting fails to differentiate between these things, but most of the data is clearly out front for all to see. People need to be more careful in copying and pasting, and in applying arguments using the data.
Some are simply doing "blind" copy and paste in various debates without understanding the context of or qualifications involved in the data at hand. They don't take the time to qualify their arguments and keep them within the scope of the data. Some for example want to use Keita's cranial studies to make sweeping claims that he never made. This sloppy approach often runs into problems though some have had partial success even with these weaknesses. On Reloaded 2 years ago I urged certain posters to exercise care and not go beyond the data- such as sweeping claims of mass movement from the Nile Valley to populate West Africa circa fall of the Dynasties. I told them such vast claims were untenable and to scale them down to more defensible proportions. Unfortunately there are still a number of "enthusiasts" who mean well, but may go overboard. I would hope they get better as time goes on and they et more exposure to the various dimensions.
But, another factor at play is various bogus troll gambits, that DELIBERATELY mix narrative summary with actual quote, in desperate attempts to divert attention when they are being defeated or debunked. Its a common ploy. Unable to deal with the data that debunks them left and right, they go into deception and distortion mode. For example they will claim' that the database says ALL of Egypt is in the tropical zone- when in fact the data shows that PART of Egypt is in that zone, and no item of data, or narrative summary ever claimed anything different.
Don't be fooled by diversionary and deceptive "use" of the data- like FBI informants and plants in the 1960s who acted as if they were "down with the people." The citations are given in full, with quote marks clearly in place- and the narrative summaries are usually obvious. Exercise proper care in their use, and verify items with original articles and books if their is any doubt and there will be few problems. I have not seen fighters like Morpheus, Slugger, Big Mike, TPatrol, TooTallJones, and other regulars under different monikers have much problem. They know how to apply things. If anything their opponents typically RUN AWAY from the brutal hammering they usually get with the weight of data is applied correctly. Or when losing they deceptively get administrator "help" to quash or exclude the multiple hammer blows coming at them.
I can see what you say happening if proper care is not taken.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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I love using your stuff Zarahan and successfully put many in check doing just that, but as you are all over the net and folks know your work, sometimes I get requests for linkable/klikable original sources especially from hostile forces who like to stall for time while searching for come back response, I then had to look-up key phases pg number etc to find the study, would be awesome to say kilk the damned link provided...now answer the damn question!!
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lol, I know what you mean. There is so much stuff out there the problem is not too little info but targeting the right info- which is another reason for the many info-graphics. There is a definite need for quick reference indeed- hence the "summary" heading are provided as well. But as soon as they start getting into details you have to break out the devil in the detail. Sometimes you don;t have time to argue endlessly with assorted a-holes and you need something quick. Its a trade-off that sometimes has no easy answer but enough is on hand to defeat the deceivers and distorters. Folks should look at the "summary" headings carefully. For example up above it says
Archaeological Evidence Shows some Meriotic Influence may have ranged down into Central Africa. The move of the Sahara southward obscures cultures once farther north-
Note use of the word "SOME". ONe guy I saw was using this to imply the Nubians/Meroeites were marching way down into Zaire building pyramids and collecting taxes, but the heading (with supporting quote below) allows no such sweeping claim. The point is that Kush/Meroe was in part "sub-Saharan, something obscured in part by the movement of the desert.
I suspect though the guy was a "plant" - like the bogus "militant Afrocentrics" who set up extreme strawmen that are then conveniently "refuted" by virtuous Eurocentrics.
For a quick "one-stop" link I have been giving the main Reloaded Data Page, or various info-graphics.
This thread can do the same one-stop duty as well. But info should be duplicated where ever possible so if one or two sites go down it is not lost.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
A need exists for all rational supporters of valid research supported authentic Africana & Black Studies students and authors to speak up on the black ego eccentric anti African agenda or be seen as the right arm of that body of fraud perpetrators.
Silence is often deemed approval and there are those who don't have the background to discern between a well reasoned supportable presentation and a full tilt off the wall fantasy production as can those who have paid their dues and can show the receipt to prove it.
How valuable one's word in the right place at the tight time can be to the impressionable mind of a seeker ...
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
"Limb length proportions in males from Maadi and Merimde group them with African rather than European populations. Mean femur length in males from Maadi was similar to that recorded at Byblos and the early Bronze Age male from Kabri, but mean tibia length in Maadi males was 6.9cm longer than that at Byblos. At Merimde both bones were longer than at the other sites shown, but again, the tibia was longer proportionate to femurs than at Byblos (Fig 6.2), reinforcing the impression of an African rather than Levantine affinity.“
-- Smith, P. (2002) The palaeo-biological evidence for admix.. In: Egypt & the Levant.. Leicester Univ. 118-28
"The biological characteristics of modern Egyptians show a north-south cline, reflecting their geographic location between sub-Saharan Africa and the Levant. This is expressed in DNA, blood groups, serum proteins and genetic disorders (Filon 1996; Hammer et al. 1998; Krings et al. 1999). They can also be expressed in phenotypic characteristics that can be identified in teeth and bones (Crichton 1966; Froment 1992; Keita 1996). These characteristics include head form, facial and nasal characteristics, jaw relationships, tooth size, morphology and upper/lower limb proportions. In all these features, Modern Egyptians resemble Sub-Saharan Africans (Howells 1989, Keita 1995)."
-- Smith, P. (2002) The palaeo-biological evidence for admixture between populations in the southern Levant and Egypt in the fourth to third millennia BCE. in E.C.M van den Brink and TE Levy, eds. Egypt and the Levant: interrelations from the 4th through the 3rd millenium, BCE. 118-28
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Archaeological Evidence Shows some Meriotic Influence may have ranged down into Central Africa. The move of the Sahara southward obscures cultures once farther north- Quote:
"Further south in Roseires area, Chattaway reported a number of sites, which might be of interest to this question after the exploration (Chattaway 1930: 259-264).. The most recent discoveries of datable sites and objects south of Khartoum suggest the presence of Napatans and Meroites along the Blue and White Niles, probably south of Kosti (Eisa 1987: 155-162; 1990). Such presence is also attested by the discoveries of the Wellcome Expeditions to the Sennar area (Gebel Moya, Abu Geili village and recently the objects found near Grisly village), and by the site and objects of El Getina (site of Mahmoud El Araki). The study of those objects as well as pottery sherds and bricks showed the strong probability of their Napatan and Meroitic affinities. Some other sites between El Getaina and El Kawa could be identified (Ni'ma, Wad el Zaki, Hashaba.. etc).
Near the town of El Kawa we have the site of Hilat Said, where golden objects were found which date most probably to the Napatan period (the inscription says: Imn-r df nh mj r - "God Amun Re gives life like Re', which seems to be a life-scarab) (Eisa 1994). Another scarab was found in Kosti town which may be of the same data as that of Kawa (Arkell 1961: 136-7). South of Kosti the investigations of Else Kleppe showed the presence of archaeological material o a different nature (of probably Meroitic date) (in El Rank area, Upper Nile province; Kleppe 1982a; 1982) as well as in the western Sudan.. So it seems that the White Nile was the route of penetration of the Kushites to these southern regions and the interior of Central Africa."
--Steffen Wenig (1992). Studien zum antiken Sudan. Akten der Internationalen Tagung für meroitische Forschungen vom 14. bis 19. 367-368- September 1992 . IN: Meroitica, v15, 1999
This is very interesting.
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Many of today’s Egyptians are not necessarily representative of Ancients due to outside migration and admixture from European/Arab sources, particularly in Lower Egypt. Some Coptic claims to be pharanoic descendants not supported by DNA studies or cultural history showing heavy Arabization since 900 AD
Modern Copt genetic profile shows substantial Middle Eastern and European elements: [quote:] "Haplogroups A, B, and E occur mainly in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups including Nilotics, Fur, Borgu, and Masalit; whereas haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group.. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe, evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic as compared with the Nilo-Saharan family of languages, and a generally higher effective population size for the former...
The relatively high-effective population size of the Copts is unlikely to have been influenced by their recent history in the Sudan. The current communities are known to be largely the product of recent migrations from Egypt over the past two centuries..“ ---Hassan et al. 2008. Y-chromosome variation.." Am J. Phy An. v137,3. 316-323
Sub-Saharan DNA B-M60 in Sudan may indicate a link with ancient Egypt: [quote:] "The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation,.. --Hassan 2008
Modern Egyptian population not necessarily representative of the ancients [quote]: "Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have a population representative of the core indigenous population of the most ancient times“ – Keita 2005. History in Africa, 2005, 32(1).221-246
"Outside influence and admixture with extraregional groups primarily occurred in Lower Egypt—perhaps during the later dynastic, but especially in Ptolmaic and Roman times (also Irish, 2006).” -Irish 2009. Dental_affinities_of_the_C-group_inhabitants.. Ec Hi Rev
Nubians more related to ancient Egyptians- [quote]: "Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region." -Starling & Stock 2007. Dental indicators of health.. AJPA 134: 520-28-
Modern Egyptians a mixed population with European and Arab strands-not identical to ancients: “Classical genetic studies show a high degree of genetic heterogeneity in the modern Egyptian population, suggesting that this population is descended from a mixture of African, Asian, and Arabian stock (Mahmoud et al. 1987; Hafez et al. 1986). Genetic heterogeneity within the Egyptian gene pool is also supported by more recent studies using autosomal STR markers (Klintschar et al. 1998; 2001)." ---Manni et al 2002. Y-chromosome analysis in Egypt, Hum Bio, 74:5, 645-658
Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.
--Sonia R. Zakrzewski (2007)
"It is often assumed that Egyptian writing was invented under a stimulus of the Mesopotamian writing system, developed in the late fourth millennium BC, that might have come at the time of the short-lived Uruk Culture expansion into Syria. A variety of artistic and architectural evidence for contact between Mesopotamia and late Predynastic Egypt has been found, but none of it can be dated precisely in relation to Tomb U-j. Moreover, **the Egyptian writing system is different from the Mesopotamian and must have been developed independently.** The possibility of “stimulus diffusion” from Mesopotamia remains, but the influence **cannot have gone beyond the transmission of an idea.**
A second point *of contrast with Mesopotamia* is in uses of writing. The earliest Egyptian writing consists of inscribed tags, ink notations on pottery, again principally from the royal cemetery at Abydos, and hieroglyphs incorporated into artistic compositions, of which the chief clear examples are such pieces as the *Narmer Palette,* which is probably more than a century later than Tomb U-j. Thus, while administrative uses of writing appear to have come at the beginning—examples from the Abydos tombs include such notations as “produce of Lower Egypt”—the system was integrated fully into pictorial representation. An intermediate, emblematic mode of representation in which symbols, including hieroglyphs, were shown in action also evolved before the 1st Dynasty. These three modes together formed a powerful artistic complex that endured as long as Egyptian civilization."
--Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999)
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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The Assyrian king Esarhaddon, who had conquered Egypt in 671 and had expelled the Nubian pharaohs of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty,note appointed native governors, and when Esarhaddon's successor Aššurbanipal recalled his troops in 664, these governors seized control of the country. One of the local dynasties had Sais (in the western Delta) as its capital. The first of these Saite rulers to be recognized as independent ruler was Psammetichus I, an Egyptianized Libyan who probably descended from the rulers of the Twenty-fourth dynasty. Psammetichus unified Egypt, inaugurated an age of great prosperity, and was clever enough to give the Assyrians the impression that he still served them.
Evidence for the prosperity of this age is that many temples were built, and another indication is the increasing number of contracts written on papyrus, often written in demotic. Great care was also taken to copy ancient literary texts and works of art. The Twenty-Sixth dynasty was a Renaissance, and among its most delightful monuments are the tombs of princess Khetbeneit-erboni II (at Saqqara) and Montuemhat (near Thebes). Only a few dedications to the traditional supreme god Amun are known; the goddess Neith of Sais and the gods of the Osiris cycle became increasingly popular.
Portrait of a pharaoh of the Saite dynasty Against foreign enemies, the Saite kings employed Carian and Greek mercenaries (a typical example is Wahibra-Emakhet). Using these troops, Kush (modern Sudan) was invaded in 593, and after the collapse of the Assyrian empire (612), Necho II made some gains in Palestine, adding Judah to the Egyptian zone of influence. A navy was built as well and several admirals (like Wedjahor-Resne) are mentioned in our sources. However, the Babylonians expelled the Egyptians from Asia; among the refugees were Judaeans who preferred life in Egypt to subjection by the Babylonians. Many of them were resettled as garrison of Elephantine. Under Amasis, Cyprus was conquered and a naval alliance was concluded with the tyrant of Samos, Polycrates.
However, in 525, the Persian king Cambyses invaded Egypt and added the ancient kingdom along the Nile to his realms. Many factors must have contributed to the end of the Egyptian independence (social divisions between settlers and Egyptians, an inexpert new king, treason...), but the deepest cause was that Egypt had no source of iron, which put it at a disadvantage: its best weapons were made of bronze.
Psammetichus II Lycia, Arabia, and Cyprus received land in the Delta, and the Aramaic language, spoken by many people in western Asia, gained popularity. Among the consequences of "opening" of Egypt were a tendency to accept religious practices from the Near East (e.g., astrology and the interpretation of omens), and an increase of social tensions between the native population and the newcomers, which the Saite pharaohs were not always able to control.
A tool was the codification of the Egyptian laws. The first evidence for the existence of this code is from the Persian age, but it appears to be older, because king Darius I ordered the laws to remain as they were in Amasis' final year.
Portrait of a pharaoh of the Saite dynasty Date 672 BCE–525 BCE
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Mencheperre Necho I 672-664 Wahibra Psamtik I (Psammetichus I) 664-610 Wehemibra Necho II 610-595 Neferibra Psamtik II (Psammetichus II) 595-589 Ha'a'ibra Wahibra (Apries) 589-567 Chenibra Amose-si-Neith (Amasis) 570-526 Anchkaenra Psamtik III (Psammetichus III) 526-525
Necho I: ruler of the Western Delta between 672 and 664 BCE, founder of the Saite dynasty.
673: The first Assyrian invasion of Egypt is repelled
671: Second Assyrian invasion: Esarhaddon captures Memphis and forces pharaoh Taharqo (Twenty-Fifth Dynasty) to flee to the south
Necho is recognized as governor of the western Delta
669: Taharqo returns to the north, Esarhaddon gathers his troops, but dies; Taharqo captures Memphis and forces the local leaders to support him again
667/666: The Assyrian king Aššurbanipal attacks Egypt again, sacks Thebes, and deports the local leaders from Lower Egypt
666: Necho returns, appointed as viceroy of Memphis and Sais; his son Psammetichus is intended successor
664: Death of Taharqo; his successor Tanwetamani proceeds to Memphis, but is defeated by Necho, who is killed in actionnote Psammetichus flees to Assyria, receives Assyrian support, and is put on the throne Succeeded
posted
Recent studies confirm other scholarship that some artifacts of Predynastic Egypt show close links with nearby sister African cultures in the Sudan region, (including religious links) rather than the alleged universal "mother goddess" models of various Indo-Europeans.
QUOTE: "In 1962, Peter Ucko wrote his landmark work, The Interpretation of Prehistoric Anthropomorphic Figurines, challenging and permanently changing the prevailing view of prehistoric figurines as representations of a universal great mother goddess. His work focused on the Predynastic figurines of Egypt, and concluded that there was nothing divine about them. They were probably dolls, ancestor figures, talismanic pregnancy aids, tools for sex instruction and puberty rites, twin substitutes in graves and concubine grave figurines. Since then, this group of figurines has received minimal attention. Using Ucko’s four-stage methodology, this study more closely examines these figurines in the context of Ancient Egyptian culture and religion, with specific attention to the contemporary Sudanese religious beliefs and practices, which may share roots with Predynastic Egyptian culture. This study concludes that some Dynastic religious beliefs and iconography relating to female deities can be recognised in many of these figurines, and can be traced back to prehistoric Nilotic rituals." --Relke 2011. The Predynastic Dancing Egyptian Figurine. Journal of Religion in Africa, Volume 41, Issue 4, pages 396 - 426
OTHER SCHOLARSHIP CONFIRMS THE SAME
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Why have an image of a woman in a graph that speaks on Y-Chromosomes? Women dont have Y-Chromosomes. Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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EGYPT'S PIONEERING DEVELOPMENT OF WRITING- NON-ALPHABETICAL AND ALPHABETICAL
Egypt a pioneer of writing before Mesopotamia "The earliest known Sumerian writings date back to 3000BC while the German team's find shows that Abydos inscriptions date to 3400BC. The first Pharaonic dynasty began in 2920BC with King Menes. The earliest known writing in Dynasty Zero is much earlier than the oldest writing discovered in Mesopotamia." --Gaballa Ali Gaballa, Secretary-General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities: 1999. IN: Nevine El-Aref, "Did writing originate in Egypt?" Al-Ahram Weekly: 1 - 7 April 1999, Issue No. 423
Certain writing forms in Mesopotamia and only understandable from Egyptian perspective
"[Archaeologist] Dreyer asserted that the obsidian used to make this bowl came from Ethiopia suggesting significant cultural contacts among Nile Valley populations. He concluded his presentation by noting similarities between specific Egyptian and Mesopotamian objects and suggesting that perhaps there is an initial influence of Egyptian writing on Mesopotamia because there are signs on Mesopotamian objects that are only "readable" from the standpoint of the Egyptian language, but not the Mesopotamian language." -- German archaeologist Gunther Dreyer. 2000. "Beginnings of Writing in Ancient Egypt" IN: - "Recent Finds in Predynastic Egypt." ANKH Journal 8/9: 1999-2000.
Africa's Nile Valley shares in creation of the historic alphabet
"Discoveries by Gunter Dreyer of the German Archaeological Institute suggest that the origin of Egyptian writing needs to be reexamined, offering the possibility that the idea of writing was developed in Egypt several centuries before it occurred in the Near East. Inscriptions from hundreds of pots and labels found at the royal cemetery at Abydos show some hieroglyphic writing as far back as 3400 BCE, with most occurring about 3200 BCE. Sumerian writing seems to have begun about 3100 BCE. The Egyptians formed and used writing in a different way than the Asians. The linguistic pictographs of Sumer were rudimentary were used primarily used for commerce. Those of Egypt were more representational of real objects and were primarily employed to identify kings, tombs and the like.
A remarkable find involving early experiments with alphabetic writing in Egypt has been recently made by John C. Darnell, an Egyptologist at Yale University, and his wife Deborah. Inscriptions discovered in the limestone cliffs on an ancient road between Thebes and Abydos, a route once heavily traveled by Asian traders and mercenaries in the Egyptian desert, are in a Semitic script with Egyptian influences. Dated between 1900 and 1000 BCE, they are two or three centuries older than previous evidence of an alphabet in the Semitic-speaking territory of the Sinai Peninsula or in the Syria-Palestine region occupied by the Canaanites. While there have always been indications that Semites were inventors of the alphabet, researchers had heretofore assumed that it was developed in their own lands by borrowing and simplifying Egyptian hieroglyphs. Instead Darnell's discovery now suggests that, working with Semitic speakers in Egypt, native scribes simplified formal pictographic Egyptian writing and modified the symbols into an early alphabet using a semi-cursive form commonly used in the Middle Kingdom."
--Martin Isler (2001). Sticks, stones, and shadows: building the Egyptian pyramids. Univ of Oklahoma PRess. p. 56
The Egyptian Western Desert- location of Egyptian military scripts adopted by both Egyptian scribes and Semitic speakers into alphabetic forms http://www.codex99.com/typography/11.html
"However, now with the recovery of alphabetic writing from the Egyptian Western Desert, the fairly high degree of literacy in Egyptian (knowledge of hieratic, and a hybrid of hieratic and hieroglyphic scripts as well) presumed by these texts, and the well known Asiatic pres-ence within Egypt proper from the early Dynastic periods onwards, strongly suggest that it is to Egypt itself that we must look for the geographi-cal home of alphabetic writing. More specifically, the Bebi inscription and its immediate neighbors offer tantalizing clues about the context in which Semitic-speaking Asiatics adopted and adapted certain aspects of the Egyptian writing system for the needs of their own language(s). The Egyptian military, known both to have employed Asiatics (as the Bebi inscription so wonderfully attests) and to have included scribes, would provide one likely context in which Western Asiatic Semitic language speakers could have learned and eventually adapted the Egyptian writing system. Indeed, the prominence of lapidary hieratic, the form of hieratic utilized by army scribes, as models for alphabetic forms at the Wadi el-Hől (and at Serabit).." --J. Darnell et al. 2005. Two Early Alphabetic Inscriptions from the Wadi el-Hol: New Evidence for the Origin of the Alphabet from the Western Desert of Egypt, Annual of the American Schools of Oriental Research 2005.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: More precision needed. If Kemet means black land, HOW PRECISELY is it related to "Djibouti" which seems to link with "cannibal"or "pot" or "jab" or something else according to various sources? https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=233866
And if you are picking out various sound matches associations, why is your particular sound match claim more authoritative than a sound match with something from Arabia or India? Try to show the relevant association and link between the two DIRECTLY and PRECISELY. Not a mass of stuff on something peripheral, but the two words or terms- Kemet and Djibouti.
- - - I just saw your response. I may be wrong. aXuMiTe/(e)KMT/(e)GBT/eJeBw'eTe/dJiBouTi/Jyambo.tswe
KMT = black land? not found.
Posts: 2021 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Do you have anything rare/new on pre-dynastic lower Egyptians? Only data that comes to mind is Petrie's Tarkhan cemetery (thought to be the "Anu" in the flesh due to their supposedly peculiar chin morphologies which they're said to share with Tera Netjer) and some other skeletal remains from Maadi and Heliopolis. Also, Junker's predynastic lower Egyptian remains from Tura come to mind. From their descriptions these all seem to be local variants of the predynastic Upper Egyptian modal pattern, with some variations tending towards (but still maintaining some distance from) what would later appear in the record as the "lower Egyptian" pattern. This is also what Patricia Smith says about some of these samples. None seem to have been as distinctly "lower Egyptian" as some of the 1st dynasty royal Egyptians from Abydos.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Do you have anything rare/new on pre-dynastic lower Egyptians? Only data that comes to mind is Petrie's Tarkhan cemetery (thought to be the "Anu" in the flesh due to their supposedly peculiar chin morphologies which they're said to share with Tera Netjer) and some other skeletal remains from Maadi and Heliopolis. Also, Junker's predynastic lower Egyptian remains from Tura come to mind. From their descriptions these all seem to be local variants of the predynastic Upper Egyptian modal pattern, with some variations tending towards (but still maintaining some distance from) what would later appear in the record as the "lower Egyptian" pattern. This is also what Patricia Smith says about some of these samples. None seem to have been as distinctly "lower Egyptian" as some of the 1st dynasty royal Egyptians from Abydos.
Might as well add this old stuff from the vault while I'm at it:
Source: The Origin of Civilization: The Case of Egypt and Mesopotamia from Several Disciplines, p134
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posted
Good info. Some of these older studies can reveal surprising tidbits, as we saw when Keita went back and looked at old excavation reports.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Scientific studies show that one of the oldest modern human remains from Egypt, at Nazlet Khater, demonstrates strong sub-Saharan affinities, and parts of early Egypt and Sudan also shows sub-Saharan affinities through the regional 'Nubian complex' of culture and lithic technology. QUOTE:
"The morphometric affinities of the 33,000 year old skeleton from Nazlet Khater, Upper Egypt are examined using multivariate statistical procedures.. The results indicate a strong association between some of the sub-Saharan Middle Stone Age (MSA) specimens, and the Nazlet Khater mandible. Furthermore, the results suggest that variability between African populations during the Neolithic and Protohistoric periods was more pronounced than the range of variability observed among recent African and Levantine populations." --PINHASI Ron, SEMAL Patrick (2000). The position of the Nazlet Khater specimen among prehistoric and modern African and Levantine populations. Jrl Hum Evo. 2000, vol. 39, no3, pp. 269-288 )
"..Middle Paleolithic and the transition to the Upper Paleolithic in the Lower Nile Valley are described... the Middle Paleolithic or, more appropriately, Middle Stone Age of this region starts with the arrival of new populations from sub-Saharan Africa, as evidenced by the nature of the Early to Middle Stone Age transition in stratified sites. Throughout the late Middle Pleistocene technological change occurs leading to the establishment of the Nubian Complex by the onset of the Upper Pleistocene." --Van Peer, P. Did middle stone age moderns of sub-Saharan African descent trigger an upper paleolithic revolution in the lower nile valley? Anthro. V42,n3, 215-225
"Nazlet Khater man was the earliest modern human skeleton found near Luxor, in 1980. The remains was dated from between 35,000 and 30,000 years ago. The report regarding the racial affinity of this skeleton concludes: "Strong alveolar prognathism combined with fossa praenasalis in an African skull is suggestive of Negroid morphology [form & structure]. The radio-humeral index of Nazlet Khater is practically the same as the mean of Taforalt (76.6). According to Ferembach (1965) this value is near to the Negroid average." --Thoma A., Morphology and affinities of the Nazlet Khater man, Jrnl of Human Evolution, vol 13, 1984.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Did Frank M. Snowden ever at least concede that Upper Egypt was closely related to North Sudan during the predynastic period? Or did he die insisting that the ancient Egyptians were mahogany brown "Caucasians" unrelated to North-east Africans?
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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In one way it is sad, one has to repeat it this often. On the other hand repetition is king.
quote:
Southeast and south Asian populations are also often thought to be derived from the admixture of various combinations of western Eurasians (‘Caucasoids’), east Asians and Australasians. ...
These findings, coupled with the recently discovered presence of haplogroup U in Ethiopia [11], support a scenario in which a northeast African population dispersed out of Africa into India, presumably through the Arabian peninsula, before 50,000 years ago (Figure 2). Other migrations into India also occurred, but rarely from western Eurasian populations. ...
Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’— that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
--Todd R. Disotell.
Human evolution: The southern route to Asia
Volume 9, Issue 24, 30 December 1999, Pages R925–R928
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Did Frank M. Snowden ever at least concede that Upper Egypt was closely related to North Sudan during the predynastic period? Or did he die insisting that the ancient Egyptians were mahogany brown "Caucasians" unrelated to North-east Africans?
Good question. That one I'll have to check out. Far as I remember Snowden pushed a version of the stereotypical "true negro" model, in which everything not meeting the stereotypical construct was dismissed, downplayed, or folded into some sort of "mixed race" model.
But even a "mixed race" model falls under popular EUro and American race constructs since being "partially black" STILL makes you black. SO it has been for well nigh three centuries in America for example.
While quick to criticize so-called "Afrocentrics" for focusing on race Snowden himself uses the same race categories to push his model, and studiously avoids the implications of the "one drop" standard, namely, that using the same categories he is using, the Egyptians would have been recognized as "black." Snowden wants to have it both ways. He uses Eurocentric "true negro" categories, but rather than be consistent and use the accompanying Eurocentric "one drop" construct, he cops out, or changes the subject.
^^At least Mary Lefkowitz, to be consistent, has to acknowledge that in terms of said construct, the ancient Egyptians would/are "black."
The above is not to say that Snowden does that have some valuable data to present, but not only is he dated, he also has an inconsistent double standard. If you are using standard Eurocentric race conceptions, how come you are all too willing to use the "true negro" piece, but then want to skip over the "one drop" side of the coin? A similar inconsistency marks several other writers in the field.
------------------------ Here is what Snowden has to say in one article:
"There was also a mixed black-white element in the Egyptian population as early as the middle of the third millenium BC. In fact, the earliest clearly recognizable Egyptian portrait of a black is preserved in a limestone head of a woman, together with that of her Egyptian husband, a prince from the court of Memphis." --Snowden 1997. Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists
Snowden's notion of "earliest clearly recognizable Egyptian portrait of a black" refers to the limestone head circa 2600BC, from the Old Kingdom. But "recognizable" portraiture prior to 2600BC does show "black" features- by contemporary Euro-American race construct standards- so how does Snowden claim that the first "recognizable" black folk don't show up until 2600BC?
He also says that there were "mixed black-white elements" around as early as the 3rd millenium. OK but even going with this, if there were "mixed" elements, clearly somebody "black" or "negroid" had to be in place way back then to do any "mixing." Snowden conveniently skips over such things, just as he skips portraiture prior to his magic 2600BC cut-off date.
In Snowden's defense, to could be argued that his "true negro" approach is rooted in his 1970s book - Before Color Prejudice, and similar work, and was fairly standard for that time. Still this does not fully excuse him- some of his published work occurs after the Keita's exhaustive research on the question, and he must have been well aware of the limb proportion and other studies that preceded that. Lefkowitz references Keita in one of her book and also uses Snowden in the same book so the info on the question was well within the research of a scholar like him.
In his "Misconceptions" piece above Snowden extensively rails against "Afocentrics" who denounce valid criticisms as "Eurocentric racism" or the product of "traitorous" Uncle Toms. But he can produce no such statements by one of the leading "Afrocentriscs" of all time, Cheikh Anta Diop. And his piece conveniently skips over the valid criticism not only Afrocentrics BUT mainstream Eurocentric scholars have made about "race" work in the Nile Valley. Snowden has some good info to offer, but his work itself is marred by distortion and double standards.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Question:
Did Frank M. Snowden ever at least concede that Upper Egypt was closely related to North Sudan during the predynastic period? Or did he die insisting that the ancient Egyptians were mahogany brown "Caucasians" unrelated to North-east Africans?
Good question. That one I'll have to check out. Far as I remember Snowden pushed a version of the stereotypical "true negro" model, in which everything not meeting the stereotypical construct was dismissed, downplayed, or folded into some sort of "mixed race" model.
But even a "mixed race" model falls under popular EUro and American race constructs since being "partially black" STILL makes you black. SO it has been for well nigh three centuries in America for example.
While quick to criticize so-called "Afrocentrics" for focusing on race Snowden himself uses the same race categories to push his model, and studiously avoids the implications of the "one drop" standard, namely, that using the same categories he is using, the Egyptians would have been recognized as "black." Snowden wants to have it both ways. He uses Eurocentric "true negro" categories, but rather than be consistent and use the accompanying Eurocentric "one drop" construct, he cops out, or changes the subject.
^^At least Mary Lefkowitz, to be consistent, has to acknowledge that in terms of said construct, the ancient Egyptians would/are "black."
The above is not to say that Snowden does that have some valuable data to present, but not only is he dated, he also has an inconsistent double standard. If you are using standard Eurocentric race conceptions, how come you are all too willing to use the "true negro" piece, but then want to skip over the "one drop" side of the coin? A similar inconsistency marks several other writers in the field.
------------------------ Here is what Snowden has to say in one article:
"There was also a mixed black-white element in the Egyptian population as early as the middle of the third millenium BC. In fact, the earliest clearly recognizable Egyptian portrait of a black is preserved in a limestone head of a woman, together with that of her Egyptian husband, a prince from the court of Memphis." --Snowden 1997. Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists
Snowden's notion of "earliest clearly recognizable Egyptian portrait of a black" refers to the limestone head circa 2600BC, from the Old Kingdom. But "recognizable" portraiture prior to 2600BC does show "black" features- by contemporary Euro-American race construct standards- so how does Snowden claim that the first "recognizable" black folk don't show up until 2600BC?
He also says that there were "mixed black-white elements" around as early as the 3rd millenium. OK but even going with this, if there were "mixed" elements, clearly somebody "black" or "negroid" had to be in place way back then to do any "mixing." Snowden conveniently skips over such things, just as he skips portraiture prior to his magic 2600BC cut-off date.
In Snowden's defense, to could be argued that his "true negro" approach is rooted in his 1970s book - Before Color Prejudice, and similar work, and was fairly standard for that time. Still this does not fully excuse him- some of his published work occurs after the Keita's exhaustive research on the question, and he must have been well aware of the limb proportion and other studies that preceded that. Lefkowitz references Keita in one of her book and also uses Snowden in the same book so the info on the question was well within the research of a scholar like him.
In his "Misconceptions" piece above Snowden extensively rails against "Afocentrics" who denounce valid criticisms as "Eurocentric racism" or the product of "traitorous" Uncle Toms. But he can produce no such statements by one of the leading "Afrocentriscs" of all time, Cheikh Anta Diop. And his piece conveniently skips over the valid criticism not only Afrocentrics BUT mainstream Eurocentric scholars have made about "race" work in the Nile Valley. Snowden has some good info to offer, but his work itself is marred by distortion and double standards.
I never understood Frank M. Snowden and his motivations. It does seem that he so desperately craved the approval of the Eurocentric matrix in Egyptology and the disciplines, and even they thought that his works acceded far too much credit to black Africans. There was no "white" element in ancient Egypt [in the European sense] so I don't understand what on earth he was on about.
He said this this:
quote:The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black. Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt.
I don't know if Frank M. Snowden realised that most Africans are just varying shades of dark brown and that the ancient Egyptian civilization was started by the "darker brown" southern Egyptians; the bulk of ancient Egypt's population resided in the South that he conceded were of a "darker brown"; most dynasties came from the "darker brown" Egyptians; the powerful religious elite were from the South -- the "darker brown" people that have the same skin colour as most Africans.
Somebody should have relayed to Frank M. Snowden that since the southern Egyptians were a "darker brown" and since they started the civilization and were the majority... he lost -- the debate would have been over.
I'm adamant that AE reliefs showing jet-black people are ancestors of the Dinka, Nuer and the Nuba and not Kushites.
Frank M. Snowden not only used the true Negro model, he seems to have insisted that since the ancient Egyptians did not have the same skin colour as the people that resembled the Dinka and Nuba on those reliefs, then they couldn't have been black even though most Africans are lighter than the Dinka.
Most white people would immediately concede that the San are black even though they're lighter than the indigenous Upper Egyptians in Luxor, Edfu, Esna, Red Sea coast and Kom Ombo but when it comes to AE mental gymnastics come into play.
There is no need to ever invoke the one drop rule because the other side will have to first demonstrate that the AE were mostly Eurasians instead of being predominantly North-east Africans.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
^^for some folk "aliens" are more plausible as a source of the AE population than nearby African cultures..
I think you are on to something. Snowden was a child of the white academic establishment of that time- a classist, so he subscribed to the stereotypical constructs of the day. And he wanted to prove his loyalty no doubt by serving as attack dogs to take on the so-called "Afrocentrics." Nothing wrong with criticizing various areas where SOME so-called Afrocentrics" were shaky, but then Snowden himself in turn has to use some distortions and stereotypical thinking.
Like you say Snowden seems not to realize that Africans can vary in skin color, but then again he probably did realize it, but has to minimize and downplay that diversity to maintain his stereotypical construct against which, all else can be minimized, downplayed or distorted. And like you say with the Upper or southern Egyptians, that is a well known thing, but he had to skip over and downplay certain things. Don't get me wrong. Some of his research is interesting but there are problems as well.
Some try to make out that the "one drop rule" is "old" vanished history. But this is false. It is very much alive as a popular construct and even appears to have been applied in court cases in the US, as recently as the late 1980s. (See Jane Doe vs State oF Lousiana 1984.) We all know the "rule" - if you have "one-drop" you still "black"..
Re the one-drop rule I would say it should not be the FIRST line of argument on the African character and foundation of AE. However it has its uses. It was often one of the only things ordinary folks had to argue with before the widespread dissemination of the hard data we have today on cranial, skeletal, genetic, dental and cultural foundations of AE. Any debates or arguments should lay down the hammer and begin with this hard data. One-drop is the SECONDARY line of advance. It is a valid secondary approach because almost all opponents, distorters and deniers of the African foundations and character of AE invoke popular cultural stereotypes. How could they be "really" African if they don't look like Mike Tyson and other such approaches.
We all know this is the "true negro" dodge. But under the "one-drop" rule, even if the "true negro" "mixed" with someone- his progeny STILL is considered BLACK under popular European and American cultural race constructs. In addition, the hypocritical double standard above can be exposed when taking up the one-drop secondary line. To wit:
how come you are all too willing to use the popular "true negro" race construct but then, hypocritically, you want to skip over the "one drop" side of the coin? Any "mix" with the "true negro" STILL is considered "black" under the same popular race constructs. SO how you only want to use one, but not the other?
It is essential that this hypocrisy be exposed - whether one is dealing with right wing distorters, well-meaning "liberals" or dubious "native" Egyptians who in their haste to "distance" deyselves from "anything African" seem to conceive of the ancient peoples as fantastist aliens who just "happen" to "spontaneously" spring up out of the Nile one day, bearing no relation to any of the surrounding African cultures. Such hypocrisy must be relentlessly exposed time and time again, especially since deniers and distorters try to skip over the hard data. As a secondary approach, one-drop is a valid tool of defense or attack, and locks them in the box, where they can be worked over from every angle- heavy artillery from the hard data, secondary barrages from cultural constructs- doesn't really matter- it's all "hammer time."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
According to the One Drop Rule an ancient Egyptian could be 15/16ths European and 1/16th African They could be light skinned and have no "true Negro" traits
but they would still be Black.
So if this is classical European anthropology and Mary Lefkowitz believes it and we like this rule, why can't Snowden join us and set aside the true negro concept?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: According to the One Drop Rule an ancient Egyptian could be 15/16ths European and 1/16th African They could be light skinned and have no "true Negro" traits
but they would still be Black.
So if this is classical European anthropology and Mary Lefkowitz believes it and we like this rule, why can't Snowden join us and set aside the true negro concept?
There is a reason why you are known as a dumb piece of ****! And it is nice to see your deplorable ass comes out of the woods. According to science you're terribly wrong, as usually.
Melanin Dosage Tests: Ancient Egyptians
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
-- A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2 Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13 " Materials and Methods
posted
Recent Scholars studying Egypt and Nubia show that the two peoples, while varying, shared several cultural and material commonalities, undermining older, simplistic, separationist 'racial' theories
QUOTE: "Any Egyptian evidence in Nubia was seen as an import or as cultural influence, while any Nubian evidence in Upper Egypt was viewed as the sporadic presence of foreign people within Egyptian territory. In the last few years, new research on the subject, particularly from a Nubian point of view, shows that the interaction between the two cultures was much more complex than previously thought, affecting the time, space and nature of the interaction (Gatto & Tiraterra 1996; Gatto 2000, 2003a, 2003b). The Aswan area was probably never a real borderline, at least not until the New Kingdom. Of particular importance in this perspective is the area between Armant and Dehmit, south of the First Cataract, as well as the surrounding deserts, and for the availability of data, more specifically the Western Desert. The data recently collected and a new interpretation of available information are bringing to light a stable and long-term interaction between Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia that has to be seen in a very different perspective. The two regions, and so their cultural entities, are not in antithesis to one another, but in the Predynastic period are still the expression of the same cultural tradition, with strong regional variations, particularly in the last part of the 4th millennium BC. Some of them are clearly connected with the major cultural and political changes of Egypt."
(-- Maria Carmela GATTO (British Museum, London) 2002. "At the Origin of the Egyptian Civilisation: Reconsidering the Relationship between Egypt and Nubia in the Pre- and Protodynastic Periods."
Conférence internationale / International Conference L'Egypte pré- et protodynastique. Les origines de l'Etat Predynastic and Early Dynastic Egypt. Origin of the State. Toulouse (France) - 5-8 sept. 2005)
QUOTE: “the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region. As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such a s came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract.
Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies." - (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
Many modern Egyptologists now admit clear correlations between ancient Egyptians and African communities, chiefdoms and states.
"The Egyptian concept of kingship, so akin to African models, seems very different to that held in the ancient Near East."
"There is a relative abundance of ancient materials relevant to contact and influence, as well as striking correlations between ancient Egyptian civilization and the ethnography of recent and current sub-Saharan communities, chiefdoms and states."
--David O'Connor, Andrew Reid 2007. Ancient Egypt in Africa
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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