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Author Topic: Upper Egyptians: Purest descendants of the Pharaohs
Wally
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Upper Egyptians; inarguably the purest descendants of Pharaonic Civilization.

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KING
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Good post wally. Let me put some more Upper Egyptians in this thread:

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KING
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More Pics of Upper Egyptians:

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the lioness,
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somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.
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Neferet
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When you find some photos of the "Ancient" lower Egyptians, please post them.

I believe these are "Modern" photos of the upper Egyptians (meaning, the closest descendants to the "Ancient" Egyptians).


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Neferet:
When you find some photos of the "Ancient" lower egyptians, please post them. I believe these are "Modern" photos of the upper Egyptians.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.


Yes the thread title and initial posts would refer to modern Egyptians.
It is unclear whether or not Wally would say the same thing about the ancient Egyptians.
I will assume for the moment that Wally believes that Lower Egyptians were no less "pure"(unpleasant term) descendants of the Pharaohs than Upper Egyptians in dynastic times.

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Wally
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Hammer
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More wallyisms...geez. for the 2000th time wally. You can't post modern pictures to make a point about the ancient past. Look at the statue of Rahotep, that is an ancient egyptian or the mummy of out red headed beauty, Queen tiye. North Africans were not negroes, black africa is south of the Sahara. [Roll Eyes]
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KING
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Hammer

Bahaahhahhahah

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

All I will say is this Hammer, We Have Tiye's Bust. Nothing "red" about her.

Peace

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KING
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More Upper Egyptians:

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Wally
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Fellaheen
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Nile River boat boys

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KING
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xyyman
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Got to make up you mind brother. Is it the Beja or the "Nubians". The Beja are a better representation of the ancient ones. These so called Upper Egytians seem to better represent the old lower egytians.

One thing that stands out is that the ancient ones were very dark as displayed on the numerous wall murals and the few pics I have seen of the Beja shows that they are very dark.

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Got to make up you mind brother. Is it the Beja or the "Nubians". The Beja are a
better representation of the ancient ones. These so called Upper Egytians seem to better
represent the old lower egytians...

[Confused]

a) Ethnic Upper Egyptians are direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians,
their ancestors have been in the country since before the pyramids - they are the purest
(not in "racially pure" but rather in the historical sense) descendants of the Ancient Egyptians...

b) The Beja are the closest relatives of the Ancient Egyptians...

--IE, you are a direct descendant from your parents; your cousins are your relatives...

c) You also seem to buy into the fallacy that there was an ethnic distinction between Upper
and Lower Egypt; there was none...

Again, here are my examples of the Ancient Egyptians' purest descendants...

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AswaniAswad
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Kulu Kara fe Kara wallahi why do u guys keep repeating the same old thing over and over again.

Damn can u Americans and Europeans keep your mouth shut about color im sure u both can agree that the Ancient egyptians are real Africans and not Europeans or Whites is that easy enough.

Im sure that those in bahri as well as fellahin and biladi egytians they know who is who and who has been in and around egypt for many long years.

Ever notice that those who live in egypt are not of one nationality or tribe. Trust me next time any of go to egypt ask the different people what is there origins and there Qiyama not everyone is egyptian no matter what color they are.

A good example of a Federation of nations states is Modern Day Ethiopia and Sudan probably no other country that resembles the ancient federation of nation states of ancient KMT-Kush Meroe-Nubia than modern day Sudan, and Ethiopia.

Egyptians are from many different tribes Beja,Sa3eedi,Mahas,Kanuz,Bedu,Turki,BerberSiwa,etc u cant attribute modern upper egyptians to ancient egyptians its like modern day native indians to ancient ones a slight difference.

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

...out of all your subjective ranting, you did make an accurate observation, of which I
have seriously entertained the idea of illustrating on this forum...

quote:
A good example of a Federation of nations states is Modern Day Ethiopia and Sudan
probably no other country that resembles the ancient federation of nation states of ancient
KMT-Kush Meroe-Nubia than modern day Sudan, and Ethiopia.

but with specifics;
Like the Anu ethnic group which founded/unified the multi-ethnic nation of Kemet; it was
the Amhara ethnic group which founded/unified the multi-ethnic modern state of Ethiopia,
even overthrowing the Oromo ethnic majority...


quote:
Egyptians are from many different tribes (tribes?!?) Beja,Sa3eedi,Mahas,Kanuz,Bedu,Turki,BerberSiwa,etc u cant attribute modern upper
egyptians to ancient egyptians its like modern day native indians to ancient ones a slight
difference.

...yes, and South Africans are from many different nationalities (tribes?!?) , Zulu, Xhosa,
Khoisan, Afrikaner, Anglo, Sotho...(Do you remember Apartheid?)

And these are some of the descendants of colonial Egyptians - The Arab Republic of Egypt

1) Omar Sharif: Lebanese Syrian descent

2) Zahi Hawass: Asiatic Arab descent

3) Egyptian billionaire

4) President Hosni Mubarak

These prominent Egyptians bear no resemblance to the Ancient Egyptians, nor to the
modern Upper Egyptians...

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the lioness,
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the title of this thread:

Upper Egyptians; inarguably the purest descendants of Pharaonic Civilization.

and some photos in this thread:

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If you look at a lot of the pictures in this thread many people have kinky hair but some have straight hair.
My question is how did these particular people get straight hair? Is it from the Levant, Arabia or Anatolia or
did it get like that strictly in North Africa?
Honestly I don't know the answer and this same unknown applies to ancient Egypt but even more.

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Wally
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...some East African relatives of Upper Egyptians: Oromo, Amhara, Afar, Somali, Sidamo....

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Wally
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the lioness,
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I call this thread Wally's Google Images Scrapbook
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Wally
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...Why I'm partial to this photograph.

They say that everyone has a twin look-a-like somewhere; in any event,
this little Upper Egyptian girl is a "clone" of a close blood relative of mine! ...swear to God


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KING
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More Upper Egyptians


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AswaniAswad
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Upper Egyptians as well as Northern Sudan all the way to Somali they look very similar almost the same family wow never new that
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyingass:

somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.

Because anyone with the most basic and elementary understanding of history knows that Lower Egypt i.e. the Delta was the entry point of all the foreign invasions of Egypt not only from Asia but also Europe. That you missed this is not surprising.
quote:
Originally posted by Hammered-brains:

More wallyisms...geez. for the 2000th time wally. You can't post modern pictures to make a point about the ancient past. Look at the statue of Rahotep, that is an ancient egyptian or the mummy of out red headed beauty, Queen tiye. North Africans were not negroes, black africa is south of the Sahara. [Roll Eyes]

More Hammered-brained nonsense. For the 2millionth time already. You can't keep repeating the crap over and over again and expect us to take this as evidence.

We've seen the statue of Rahotep.

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^ Looks like a black man to me, although the paint is obviously faded as can be seen from the dark traces around the neck and chin and even the black paint of the hair is faded.

As for the Elder Lady, it was explained about a thousand times that you can't expect the hair of a mummified corpse to look the same after the effects of embalming fluid and thousands of years of dehydration, or should I post pics of the "blonde" and "red-head" mummies of Peru again?

Besides this was how the Elder Lady was described by doctors who examined the skull:

"First identified as Queen Tiye
The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism.
"-- Dr. James Harris and Dr. Edward Wente (1980)

Tiye's bust

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Lastly, blacks are native to *ALL* of Africa not just "sub-Sahara" as we have explained to you all too many times that the Sahara did not always exist and neither was it ever a barrier to populations as (black) populations still live in and north of the desert not just the Egyptians.

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Caipira
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Very nice thread!

There are some more Upper Egyptians, the true descendants of pharaos:

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Caipira
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Caipira
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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Caipira:
Very nice thread!
There are some more Upper Egyptians, the true descendants of pharaos:...

...sorry, but your display of Upper Egyptians won't fly on this forum; you have falsely
tried to equate these images of Turkish-Egyptians, Circassian-Egyptians, Syrian-Egyptians
as "purest descendants of the Pharaohs"; it will be viewed here as bogus and misleading...

The beautiful Charlize Theron is a South African but she is not a descendant of the
Zulu, the Matabele, the Xhosa...she is of French/German descent, still she is South African...
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We here know that you are not, or should not be unaware of history, colonialism and its
processes; but you are of course free to pretend that we here on this forum are not
aware of history, colonialism, politics...

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KING
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Caipira

While I am not as Blunt as Wally when it comes to calling out someone, you must understand that the pics you have shown of Upper Egyptians show the Heritage of mixing between Egypt and Asia.

I also KNOW that light skinned Egyptians also have Majority African genes so I will never say they are outsiders BUT I will say you should show the Upper Egptians with the least amount of mixture.

Peace

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Caipira
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
...sorry, but your display of Upper Egyptians won't fly on this forum; you have falsely
tried to equate these images of Turkish-Egyptians, Circassian-Egyptians, Syrian-Egyptians
as "purest descendants of the Pharaohs"; it will be viewed here as bogus and misleading...

I am not sure what you mean. The people in the photos are almost exclusively Upper Egyptian villagers from the region between Beni Suef and Sohag, both Muslims and Christians. The Turks, Circassians and Syrians mixed mostly with people in the urban areas of the Delta. I purposely put emphasis on group photos, since they represent better the diversity existing in the region.

I am also not sure how you can label the photos I posted as misleading if the photos posted by you are hardly a good illustration of the anthropological character of the Upper Egyptian population. You clearly selected just the darkest possible types you could find and judging by the attire some of those people are actually rather Sudanese.

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the lioness,
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Wally can tell people's ancestry just by looking.
He has magical powers

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Caipira
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Caipira

While I am not as Blunt as Wally when it comes to calling out someone, you must understand that the pics you have shown of Upper Egyptians show the Heritage of mixing between Egypt and Asia.

I also KNOW that light skinned Egyptians also have Majority African genes so I will never say they are outsiders BUT I will say you should show the Upper Egptians with the least amount of mixture.

Peace

Hi,

"with the least amount of mixture" is supposed to mean the darkest ones? Well, there are some pretty dark types in those photos, don't you see them? However, having said that I don't quite understand how you can be so sure that all the lighter or more "Middle Eastern" types are less "pure". Are you sure that there was no racial diversity in those areas in the ancient times? Actually, imagine those people without beards and mustaches and in ancient Egyptian costumes and they will look very much like the "Kemetian" people on ancient paintings (although given the stylized nature of the Ancient Egyptian art, it is rather problematic to use it as a decisive argument for any theory about their exact appearance).

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Caipira
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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
Wally can tell people's ancestry just by looking.
He has magical powers

One doesn't have to have "magical" powers in order to perceive a person's ethnicity, you
simply have to have unclouded vision - for example:

a) I can usually, without them speaking, distinguish a Korean from a Japanese person - and
the both of them from a Chinese person...

b) I can distinguish a Mexican of Spanish descent from a Mexican of Indian descent from
a Mestizo...

Again, none of this is "magical", you simply have to like people and to enjoy interacting
with people of all ethnicities (a miracle, I suppose, of growing up in the San Francisco
bay area.)

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Caipira
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
b) I can distinguish a Mexican of Spanish descent from a Mexican of Indian descent from
a Mestizo...

The problem is that we know very well how the pure indigenous Mexicans and pure Spaniards look like, since there are still many representatives of these groups in the world and we know very well when and under what circumstances they mixed.

However, I am really curious how you can tell an Egyptian fellah's ancestry just by looking. How do you know the exact appearance of the people who lived in the area of el Minya or Assiut in 2000 BC?

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Caipira:
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
b) I can distinguish a Mexican of Spanish descent from a Mexican of Indian descent from
a Mestizo...

The problem is that we know very well how the pure indigenous Mexicans and pure Spaniards look like,
since there are still many representatives of these groups in the world and we know very well when
and under what circumstances they mixed.

However, I am really curious how you can tell an Egyptian fellah's ancestry just by looking.
How do you know the exact appearance of the people who lived in the area of el Minya or Assiut in 2000 BC?

These ARE Upper Egyptians: Aswanis...
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These are NOT Upper Egyptians you posted, but Egyptians from beni suef, which
is about 75 miles south of Cairo
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Beni Suef
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...

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anthropos
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Ridiculous thread.
The topic starter believes that Upper Egyptian aka the pure descendants of the paraohs are unmixed and have some kind of frozen DNA in their cells.
All cultures are mixed at some point.

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by anthropos:
Ridiculous thread.
The topic starter believes that Upper Egyptian aka the pure descendants of the paraohs
are unmixed and have some kind of frozen DNA in their cells.
All cultures are mixed at some point.

[Roll Eyes]
On 28 September, 2010 05:23 PM I posted within this topic:

quote:

Ethnic Upper Egyptians are direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians,
their ancestors have been in the country since before the pyramids - they are the purest
(not in "racially pure" but rather in the historical sense) descendants of the Ancient Egyptians...

This was my clarification of my usage of the word "pure", which is:

Pure = arrant; without qualification

I could have easily named this topic: "Upper Egyptians: Without qualification, the direct
descendants of the Pharaohs "; but I learned early in life that brevity was the key to
good writing, thus "Upper Egyptians: Purest descendants of the Pharaohs"...

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Caipira
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
These are NOT Upper Egyptians you posted, but Egyptians from beni suef, which
is about 75 miles south of Cairo

Well, the precise boundaries of Upper Egypt are disputable. According to the Ancient Egyptian definition (which should be the most authoritative for you), basically the whole area between Memphis and Aswan (and therefore including Beni Suef) was "Upper Egypt" and known as Ta Shemau in opposition to "Lower Egypt" - Ta Mehu. Also according to the modern Egyptian definition the Nile Valley part of Egypt is considered to be one region called el Sa'id (الصعيد) alias Upper Egypt.

However, you have only dodged answering my question, which is how can you know that the people in the photos I posted are "Turkish" or "Syrian" Egyptians as opposed to your allegedly more "authentic" ones (some of them being most probably Sudanese). Do you know their genealogies? Do you know exactly how the people in those regions looked like 4000 years ago?

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Caipira:
...you have only dodged answering my question, which is how can you know that the people in the photos I posted are "Turkish" or "Syrian" Egyptians as opposed to your allegedly more "authentic" ones (some of them being most probably Sudanese). Do you know their genealogies? Do you know exactly how the people in those regions looked like 4000 years ago?


"Elementary my dear Watson, elementary"

Ancient Mayan Civilization
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and their descendants
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Colonial Spanish ruling class of Mesoamerica ( Calderon and Fox of Mexico)
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The Ancient Egyptians, who because Ancient Egypt is a 'dead' civilization...
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the 'tomb robbers' would then like for you to believe that their descendants
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are also dead in order to convince you that these Aamu colonialists created this civilization...
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Siptah:
Hemiunu profile and some relatives:


Authentic Hemiunu relief:
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Caipira
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:


The Ancient Egyptians, who because Ancient Egypt is a 'dead' civilization...

the 'tomb robbers' would then like for you to believe that their descendants

are also dead in order to convince you that these Aamu colonialists created this civilization...

Well, again you proved to be unable to answer my questions. The Ancient Egyptian art was stylized. If we should take it as a 100% realistic depiction of the Ancient Egyptian's appearance, then we would have to come to the conclusion that Egyptian women were mostly yellowish.

In any case the male population is depicted as being mostly light or dark brown with black hair and varying, albeit usually "moderate" features. Which is how could be very well described many people in the photos of Upper Egyptians which I posted.

And please, stop pretending that those 2 guys in the 5th and 6th photo are Egyptians, they are almost certainly Sudanese (at least the second one). Where did you find them?

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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Upper Egypt covers most of the Nile Valley in Egypt. In the Old Kingdom, UE was from Memphis in the North to near Edfu or Aswan. Upper refers to up river and a higher elevation and NOT to South. The Nile flows from South to North in the Delta - Lower(elevation)Egypt. The AE didn't know the true source of the Nile and thought it arose from underground caverns near the southern border.

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Sa'idis -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Upper_Egyptians-Sa%27idis.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac2g5NW9RhU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mrJW5d0YDY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6svRVH4XSyE

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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"BLACK DAYS" (Sudanese and SSA INVADE Egypt)

On January 27, 28 and 29, 2003, Egyptian police conducted raids of Sudanese, Liberian and sub-Saharan African residences in the Maadi area. Detainees, including those with refugee cards, reported ill treatment, beatings and abuse. One detainee reported-

I was taken into a police wagon on the street. They drove around to collect other black people. They would ask Egyptians on the street, "Where are the buildings where blacks live?" It was about one hour driving around like this. By the end there were ten or twelve Africans in the car." HRW

Other detainees alleged that police referred to the raids as "Black Day" and that police intake sheets were labeled, "Operation Track Down Blacks."

There are tens of thousands of Sudanese refugees in Egypt, most of them seeking refuge from ongoing military conflicts in their home country of Sudan. Their official status as refugees is highly disputed, and they have been subject to racial discrimination and police violence. They live among a much larger population of Sudanese migrants in Egypt, more than two million people of Sudanese nationality (by most estimates; a full range is 750,000 to 4 million (FMRS 2006:5) who live in Egypt. The U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants believes many more of these migrants are in fact refugees, but see little benefit in seeking recognition.

Egypt employs a "shoot to stop" policy against refugees attempting to continue to Israel. According to Human Rights Watch, over 50 refugees, including women and children, have been shot by Egyptian border guards since 2007.[1][2]


The violent destabilization and economic collapse caused by the immense amount of death and destruction in Sudan has forced millions of civilians to flee their homes and cities.[3] Many refugees currently residing in Egypt escaped from the Second Sudanese Civil War, where war "pitted black African separatists" and "Christians" against a "Sudanese government run by Muslim, Arabic-speaking northerners who had tried to impose Islamic law on the country." 1 in 5 Sudanese were killed in the war, and over 4 million civilians in the South have been given Internally Displaced Persons status. [4] The majority of these IDPs are attempting to resettle outside of the country, but efforts have produced minimal results.

In January of 2004, Egyptian politicians wrote legislation for a “Four Freedoms Agreement,” which would grant both Sudanese and Egyptians the freedom of movement, residence, ownership and work in either country. It would allow Sudanese nationals to live indefinitely in Egypt while no longer having to seek refugee status to remain in the country. The agreement would not enable Sudanese refugees to benefit from educational, medical, or social benefits entitled to native citizens. However, as of 2009, the agreement has yet to be ratified by the Egyptian government. [5]

Refugees in Egypt experience discrimination by both the government and civilian services. A series of laws passed by parliament has effectively stalled legal and financial gains for refugees of all nationalities, and the response by the international community has been limited.

Legal employment in Egypt is "virtually" impossible for Sudanese refugees. The 2003 Labor Law and its implementing Ministerial Decree and the 2004 Decree of the Ministry of Manpower and Emigration force all foreigners including refugees to have a permit to work in "gainful" employment. The requirements are reportedly very "stringent," and include assessments of legal status, employer sponsorship, and non-competition with nationals. In 2006, employers have since been required to submit a certificate verifying Sudanese nationals are not carrying AIDS. As a result of these requirements, only a fraction of Sudanese have obtained working permits.

1. ^ Human Rights Watch faults Egypt's 'shoot-to-stop' policy, Christian Science Monitor 13-11-2008
2. ^ Refugees set their sights on Israel, The National 11-12-2009
3. ^ http://www.internal-displacement.org/8025708F004CE90B/httpPages/22FB1D4E2B196DAA802570BB005E787C?OpenDocument&count=1000 IDP statistics
4. ^ http://web.archive.org/web/20041210024759/http://www.refugees.org/news/crisis/sudan.htm Refugees in Sudan
5. ^ http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/706/eg3.htm
6. ^ http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,,SDN,,4a40d2a5c,0.html UNHRC

* Forced Migration and Refugee Studies program (FMRS) of the American University in Cairo, A TRAGEDY OF FAILURES AND FALSE EXPECTATIONS: Report on the Events Surrounding the Three-month Sit-in and Forced Removal of Sudanese Refugees in Cairo, September–December 2005, June 2006.
* Gamal Nkrumah, "The noose tightens," Al-Ahram Weekly, 5-11 January 2006.
* U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants (USCRI), World Refugee Survey 2005.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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again you proved to be unable to answer my questions. The Ancient Egyptian art was stylized. If we should take it as a 100% realistic depiction of the Ancient Egyptian's appearance, then we would have to come to the conclusion that Egyptian women were mostly yellowish.

While we can't rely 100% on art to say it was all stylized is an overexaggeration. Please see here..

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003620

To me the Egyptian art is pretty much an indicator on how they saw themselves.

In any case the male population is depicted as being mostly light or dark brown with black hair and varying, albeit usually "moderate" features. Which is how could be very well described many people in the photos of Upper Egyptians which I posted.

Both types were present in Ancient Egypt.

And please, stop pretending that those 2 guys in the 5th and 6th photo are Egyptians, they are almost certainly Sudanese (at least the second one). Where did you find them?

Im not sure but I think you are talking about..

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^^^^
The Man is not a "Sudanese" but a Fallahin of Upper Egypt..

http://aliciapatterson.org/APF001974/Rubin/Rubin06/Rubin06.html

BTW, I don't speak for Wally I don't know what his prob. is...?? but I hope I helped.

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Wally
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Upper Egyptians (Uplanders) - Direct descendants of the Pharaohs
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Wally
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Wally
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anthropos
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OK Wally I see your point.
You have an ancient Egyptian relief or papyrus picture that resembles a group of Egyptians of today.
BUT
How can you prove that Egypt in the old days wasn't as versatile genatically as it is today?

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by anthropos:
OK Wally I see your point.
You have an ancient Egyptian relief or papyrus picture that resembles a group of Egyptians of today.
BUT
How can you prove that Egypt in the old days wasn't as versatile genatically as it is today?

...a must read
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<><><>


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"Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric
studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples
were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results
indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit
with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of
state formation."

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