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Author Topic: Manilius Quote, 1st century AD (Roman)
-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
No matter how many pictures you post you can not avoid certain facts, namely that Mauriatania is deep into Africa and much of it was considered land of the Blacks by Batutta so the indigenous would be Blacks. And yet you have so many light skinned people who call themselves Bidan and claim descent from Sanhaja Berbers and Arabs who came from the north

At this point its just a matter of emotional denial of facts. I already posted evidence and corroborating Images that the Bidane is all about Paternal decent not skin color. The Bidanes actually conquered the Sanhadja and subjugated them as well. Further I posted Images of the people who own the Damn Manuscripts with "Almoravid" and Sanhadja Law etc. As I said earlier an unbiased observer can see clearly that the Sanhaja were close in resemblence to Black Africans..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Obviously these light traits are not native to the indigenous and most have come with the invasion of the Sanhaja.

No whats obvious is you are an emotionally driven cry baby who tries to distort and run in circles. First off the "Light" Bidanes speak Hassinya Arabic and descend from an Arabic people who conquered the Zenega as well as the Sonnike and Wolof people of Mauritania. It has already been established that the Sanhaja were in the large "Brown and Black" with a few Pale one among them as well as being compared to black Africans in the Fatimid Army.

You claiming that the Bidanes are the Sanhaja and not Arabs despite the language and obvious history has no support.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Therefore the Snahja must have been light skinned with sharp Eurasian features.

You have been claiming this for 3 pages with not a drop of supporting evidence.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
and they didn't use the term White and Black to contrats themsleves with the natives for nothing. Common sense dude.

The Term White and black here is subjective. People who look like Anwar Sedat would have been called "White", so trying to impose western ideology on Islamic sources is a point of desperation.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Ok so many did mix, but the orgigianl light phenotype is there.

A representation of the Invader Arabs.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
You don't to be a genius to realize that. Even Dana knows it but she will lie and spin, and spin some more.

The only person lying and distorting here is you, both here and on the R1b thread. I realize why, it hurts your feelings that there were black berbers, a win for so called "Afrocentrism"..lol
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melchior7
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At this point its just a matter of emotional denial of facts. I already posted evidence and corroborating Images that the Bidane is all about Paternal decent not skin color. The Bidanes actually conquered the Sanhadja and subjugated them as well. Further I posted Images of the people who own the Damn Manuscripts with "Almoravid" and Sanhadja Law etc. As I said earlier an unbiased observer can see clearly that the Sanhaja were close in resemblence to Black Africans..

Dude you yourself mention that the Bidan Moors claim descent from Beni Hassan Arabs who we know are not Black Africans. Now should one think it's a coindince that they distinguish themsleves by calling themselves Bidan?? Are you freakin serious?? Oh yeah they were a mixture of Sanhaja Berbers too, so still light. So it was about color after all.

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Dude you yourself mention that the Bidan Moors claim descent from Beni Hassan Arabs who we know are not Black Africans.
And, what the hell is your point?? We are talking about the Sanhaja not Arabs. BTW, not all Arabs are light some can be quite Dark etc. Even you yourself have contended that the aboriginal Arabs were "Veddiod" people with Africoid features. There is still a presence of this type on Socotra Island in Yemen. I doubt these people came into Africa but it gives you something to think about when it comes to "Eurasians" many Socotrans look like HOA's and other Kushites.

quote:
Are you freakin serious?? Oh yeah they were a mixture of Sanhaja Berbers too, so still light. So it was about color after all.
They mixed with Sanhaja, Sudanis etc. This bears out in the Hassinya language with Sonnike and Zenega loan words.Once again has nothing to do with color but paternal decent, which is why you have "Blacks" in the Bidane class. This is how Islamic cultures work, again Anwar sedat. This is a verified fact if you accept it or not.

The woman I posted Dimi Mint Abbas was a Bidane Moor of a lower rank called iggawin. Her Low rank had nothing to do with color but the fact that it was the Musician class. Don't you get it, originally the "Castes" were a Warrior caste, both Sudanis, and Zenaga berbers were conquered.

Look as Dimi she looks very similar to the people who one the Almoravid Libraries, I even posted a Maurabout the people who speak the Zenega language. These people are all Brown and Dark Brown with African Features.

Im really starting to think you are mildly retarded. You can't seem to retain basic information..once again reguarding the Sanhaja..

Once Again..

quote:
"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan


11th Century..

Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black
Africans”.

-11th Century

See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.


quote:
(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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The Garamantes AKA Taureg AKA Banu Tanamek of the Sanhadja were compared to Northern Sudanese(Triakontaschoinos) by Greco Romans

 -

N.Sudanese

 -

 -

Taureg..

 -


Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..

quote:
Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,

 -
Modern Sanhaja with Brown Skin and Wholly hair..

Yussuf Tachfin was not alone, the Almohad Sultan Mulay Al Mansur's mother was a Sudani, Fulani.

Give it up already bro, you lost this one..

Im sorry..

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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BTW, Garrig the Woman I posted Dimi Mint Abbas, was a Moorish Singer of the rank iggawin, a Low rank in the Moorish class. She looks similar to the Mauritanians who own the Manuscripts, many of which have Almoravid law.

A good way to explain how colorism in Islam works is to imagine the opposite of the One Drop Rule.
One drop of Arab blood makes one "Arab"..

There is too much proof establishing the Dark skinned Africoid appearance of the Saharan Berbers. I honestly don't understand why this bothers you so..

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Djehuti
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^ I already explained why it bothers him so much...

It is because he knows Europeans especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry via North Africans so he like the other Euronuts are left with no option but to white-wash North Africans and that includes not only Egyptians but Berbers. By white-washing North Africa they can segregate Europeans further from blacks whom they fear "contamination" by.

This white-washing is futile as it is pathetic but it is all they have left. Unfortunately as we've seen with folks like Perahu and Evil-Euro, they eventually stumble onto the problem that North Africa's populations are continuous with those of [black] Sub-Sahara and are thus forced to white-wash that region as well.

It is a sick and twisted game based on an equally sick mentality.

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


If your intent is to claim that the invading Sanhaja berbers who invaded looked the same as the native Mauretanians and that the term Bidan was no bearing at all on having lighter skin, than yeah..I would guess that you are dumber than me.

"In this translation the term 'Sudan' refers to the land area, and 'sadan' to the people. Arabic- or Berber-speaking Saharans often refer to
themselves, by contrast, as bidan-'whites'. As observed in the introduction, these categories are
referents of cultural practices rather than of skin colours
.-- John Hunwick

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:


 -


Frank Snowden, Before Color Prejudice, p 9


On the other hand when ancient authors called specific attention
only to color of certian Garamantes and Mauri, and made implied comparisions with Ethiopians they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments
 -
 -
Gladiators from the Zliten mosaic

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Djehuti
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^ And your point??
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anguishofbeing
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Why do you assume that the skin tone in that spam is of someone who is "racially mixed"? Is that skin tone your example of the so-called "intermediate" phenotype you were so afraid to clarify for Evergreen in another thread?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
Why do you assume that the skin tone in that spam is of someone who is "racially mixed"? Is that skin tone your example of the so-called "intermediate" phenotype you were so afraid to clarify for Evergreen in another thread?

I assumed nothing, such skin tone overlap. A Palestinian may have both parents of the same skin tone (intermediate) A black person and white person may have a child who has the same skin tone as the Palestinian(mixed) . The Palestinian and mulatto may have the same skin tone as certain pure African people.

However I made no claim. I simply posted the Zliten gladiators which is mentioned in jari's so it is not spam, and I repeated a Snowden quote that was already in the text he put up.

Conclusion: the situation is uncertain or at least variable

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anguishofbeing
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"they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments"

You made an assumption. Dunce kitten.

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Djehuti
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^ Let's not also forget the context. 'Racially mixed' between what groups? They obviously weren't referring to any white people present. If anything the source points to admixture between the (darker) Ethiopians and the (lighter) Mauri. It's noticeable that the source uses "negroid", though obviously such a racial concept did not exist for these Roman writers let alone was used. Though as Takruri has pointed out color or shade differences were obviously noted by them.
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Correct..

For the Lyin-ass dummy

Some more Images from Ziltchen..

 -

 -

More Images..


 -

 -

 -

FU-FU-FUU!!!

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alTakruri
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Snowden is good for uncovering primary texts and
artworks. He was not at all trained in physical
anthropology and made up his own definition for
assigning negroes and negroids as suited himself.

 -

His ideas on "racially mixed segments" pertaining
to people not labeled Aethiopian is merely his
own opinion not supported by the primary texts
either in whole or in part and that's why he
says "perhaps" which also indicates perhaps not.

Snowden was a proponent of the full blown "true
negro" concept and its accompanying "Hamitic
hypothesis" without the corellate "true blanco"
and "Aryan race" which if you have the one you
must have the other or else you're not playing
fair and restricting black to a limited extreme
while allowing white a free range of phenotypes.

See Snowden (1970) pp.7-10, 14. esp Table A.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
"they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments"

You made an assumption. Dunce kitten.

Dunce, jari put up the text first, it's Snowden's words, blame jari
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:


 -

 -
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Yes, very true, many of the people Snowden labeled as "Racially Mixed" or "Part Black" were Africans adapted to their enviroment who deviated from the True NEgro image.

 -

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Snowden is good for uncovering primary texts and
artworks. He was not at all trained in physical
anthropology and made up his own definition for
assigning negroes and negroids as suited himself.

 -

His ideas on "racially mixed segments" pertaining
to people not labeled Aethiopian is merely his
own opinion not supported by the primary texts
either in whole or in part and that's why he
says "perhaps" which also indicates perhaps not.

Snowden was a proponent of the full blown "true
negro" concept and its accompanying "Hamitic
hypothesis" without the corellate "true blanco"
and "Aryan race" which if you have the one you
must have the other or else you're not playing
fair and restricting black to a limited extreme
while allowing white a free range of phenotypes.

See Snowden (1970) pp.7-10, 14. esp Table A.


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Djehuti
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^ Correct. Takruri's post was very clear and concise. Let us see the lyinass worm try to wriggle her way out of it. [Big Grin]
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehoopti:
^ Correct. Takruri's post was very clear and concise. Let us see the lyinass worm try to wriggle her way out of it. [Big Grin]

Djehoopti what did I tell you about about mindless cheerleading type posts that contribute no new information. I have been administering a number of beatdowns lately, beating down people with their own sources. I'm sorry I 've had to stomp so hard.
lateste example Jari's Snowden reference which says "the predominantly white Mauri"
This is when you start babbling about wriggling and twirl you baton.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL Whom am I "cheerleading". I merely point out the wriggling worm you are. You complain that I add no new info, but what is there to add?? Everything has been explained in the last two pages. Don't get mad at me if you don't accept any of it. [Embarrassed]
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Sundjata
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Excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:

"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
Excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:

"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)

^^^ White slaves, African masters: an anthology of American barbary captivity ... By Paul Michel Baepler p215

(^^^ Letter about Robert Adams not by Robert Adams)


continues, p 223


 -

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Sundjata
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^lioness, that's not where I got the quotation.

http://www.archive.org/details/narrativeofrober00adamrich

Robert Adams was illiterate and relayed his story to a certain Simon Cock. It was published in the London Newspaper in 1816.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
^lioness, that's not where I got the quotation.

http://www.archive.org/details/narrativeofrober00adamrich

Robert Adams was illiterate and relayed his story to a certain Simon Cock. It was published in the London Newspaper in 1816.

the text I posted is also in the same text, p45 of The Robert Adams narrative, your quote p 31

People forget the Morrish invasion of the Songhai a quest for gold

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Sundjata
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So what? I cited the primary source; you didn't. What is your point?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
So what? I cited the primary source; you didn't. What is your point?

In the narrative the Moors are said to be straight haired and black, yet at the same time the author distinguishes them from Negroids.
This shows that the word "black" is used in a differnt way then what
the average American (an example) would intend it to mean.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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"Moorish Invasion" of Songhai...for gold??

According to whom??

BTW, Timbuktu was founded by Moors, the Tuareg..

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
^lioness, that's not where I got the quotation.

http://www.archive.org/details/narrativeofrober00adamrich

Robert Adams was illiterate and relayed his story to a certain Simon Cock. It was published in the London Newspaper in 1816.

the text I posted is also in the same text, p45 of The Robert Adams narrative, your quote p 31

People forget the Morrish invasion of the Songhai a quest for gold


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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
So what? I cited the primary source; you didn't. What is your point?

In the narrative the Moors are said to be straight haired and black, yet at the same time the author distinguishes them from Negroids.
This shows that the word "black" is used in a differnt way then what
the average American (an example) would intend it to mean.

No where in the narrative does Adams use the word "Negroid". Also, any criteria Adams (himself a "Mulatto") uses to distinguish "Black-skinned" moor from "Negro" is immaterial to the fact that they are described as "Black". His early 19th century race conceptions (or Cock's) were not considered when I initially posted that quote. I was providing raw descriptive material for individual analyses, period.
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^
BTW, Adams claims that he caused a sensation among the Moors because they had never seen a "White" person before. Yet Adams was a Mulatto and according to his scribe was quite Dark Himself.

Off topic, I just got "Africans and Native Americans" by Jack D Forbes(RIP) off Amazon today. Filled with alot of good in depth info. Forbes went to work on this book..

will def. share some useful info with the forum..

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] ^^^
BTW, Adams claims that he caused a sensation among the Moors because they had never seen a "White" person before. Yet Adams was a Mulatto and according to his scribe was quite Dark Himself.


Excellent observation. [Smile]

quote:
Off topic, I just got "Africans and Native Americans" by Jack D Forbes(RIP) off Amazon today. Filled with alot of good in depth info. Forbes went to work on this book..

will def. share some useful info with the forum..

Didn't even know about this book before. Looking forward to it (looks interesting).
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^
Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and NAtive Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"

Im gonna have to read more though...


To Lioness

Where is your proof that

1) the Moroccans invaded Songhai for Gold.

2)The Invasion of Songhai is the reason that Moors were in Timbuctu when Adams arrived..

3) Explain the relationship between the Mehgreb and Sudan..

Thanks

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] ^^^
Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and Native Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"

yes, the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.


Im gonna have to read more though...

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

To Lioness

Where is your proof that

1) the Moroccans invaded Songhai for Gold.


quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

2)The Invasion of Songhai is the reason that Moors were in Timbuctu when Adams arrived..

my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

3) Explain the relationship between the Mehgreb and Sudan..


I've never heard of the Mehgreb, just the Mahgreb

UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA - AFRICAN STUDIES CENTER
The Invasion of Morocco in1591 and the Saadian Dynasty [J. Michel]

An Examination of The Role of Europe in the Morocco Invasion of 1591 and the Rise to Power of the Saadian Dynasty


Jonathan Michel

December 1, 1995
The invasion of Sudan began from Marrakech on October 16, 1590. Al-Mansur, the Shariff of Morocco, ordered his best warriors to invade the Songhai Empire and capture the source of gold. Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur (the victorious) also known as al-Dhahabi (the golden one) was the ruler of Morocco from 1578 -1603. Under the command of Pasha Judar the troops marched south toward the desert. After a long and dangerous journey across th e Sahara they arrived in the Empire of Songhai. There the soldiers would enter in a series of battles adventures and emerge victorious. The well equipped Moroccan army captured many of the Empire's principal cities and forced the the Songhai leader to sur render. The source of gold remained outside their reach. The location of the mines were a secret known only to one tribe which lived along the southern Niger River and guarded by the silent trade.

full article:

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/morco_1591.html

You may be aware of the Book "The Golden Trade of the Moors"

Another interesting book:

On Trans-Saharan Trails: Islamic Law, Trade Networks, and Cross-Cultural Exchange in Nineteenth-Century Western Africa
Ghislaine Lydon


.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
I will have to do more research, I had read that in part of a Runoko Rashidi book.
Cool, Im still researching as well.

quote:
my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
So are you claiming that there were no "Moors" In Songhai or Timbuctu or that Moors did not fight for the Songhai??

quote:
I've never heard of the Mehgreb, just the Mahgreb
Mehgreb/Mahgreb comes from the Semetic word "MRGB"

or M-'-r-b in Latin we add Vowels, Hence M"e"or M"a" and Greb for our latinized speach..

although you are right it's usually with an "a" vowel in "Mah"

quote:
m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is
obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb
pay attention to the final b. No west without it.

Sources:
Richard S. Tomback
A comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages
Missouri, Montana: Scholars Press, 1978

Francis Brown; S R Driver; Charles A Briggs
A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament
Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1906

Samuel Prideaux Tregelles
Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon
Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1949 [1857]

Ill make a seperate tread..

I think this deserves a seperate thread...

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:


Another interesting book:

On Trans-Saharan Trails: Islamic Law, Trade Networks, and Cross-Cultural Exchange in Nineteenth-Century Western Africa
Ghislaine Lydon



I have this book. Funny you cite it as Prof. Lydon's work does much to counter the phony divisions that people such as yourself try to create between Northern and "sub-Saharan" Africans. From the book:

quote:
Muslim geographers named the region al-S _ah_ ra¯ ’, Arabic for “the Desert,” also referred to as al-S _ah_ ra¯ ’ al-Kubra¯ (or “the Great Desert”). They viewed it as an intermediate zone beyond which was the Bila¯d al-Suda¯n or “Land of the Blacks.” In an attempt to describe an area they barely understood, these early writers used this expression to discriminate between Africans so as to set apart “Blacks” from “Arabs” and “Berbers” of Muslim North Africa, recently incorporated into the abode of Islam (Da¯ r al-Isla¯m). The limits of an imaginary Bila¯d al-Suda¯n were redefined
when a series of North African migrations, which began in earnest in the eleventh century [the Almoravids(?)], displaced many Saharan dwellers forced to migrate toward the southern desert edge. Ironically, some of these groups began identifying themselves as “Whites” (Bı¯d_a¯n) and speaking of a “Land of the Whites” (T_ ra¯b al-Bı¯d_ a¯n) united by the use of a common language, the Arabic-based H_ asa¯ nı¯ya.13 In the fifteenth century, Portuguese maritime explorers, vying for African gold, heralded a new age of imperialism. European explorers, and later colonial rulers, would reinvent Africa on
their own terms by also applying a color line to their racial mappings of
the continent.

--Page 6


and:

quote:
For ages, the Sahara has been portrayed as an ‘empty-quarter’ where only nomads on their spiteful camels dare to tread. Colonial ethnographic templates reinforced perceptions about the Sahara as a ‘natural’ boundary between the North and the rest of Africa, separating ‘White’ and ‘Black’ Africa and, by extension, ‘Arabs’ and ‘Berbers’ from ‘Africans’. Consequently, very few scholars have ventured into the Sahara despite the overwhelming historical evidence pointing to the interactions, interdependencies and shared histories of neighbouring African countries. By transcending the artificial ‘Saharan frontier’, it is easy to see that the Sahara has always been a hybrid space of cross-cultural interactions marked by continuous flows of peoples, ideas and goods. This paper discusses a methodological approach for
writing Saharan history which seeks to transcend this artificial divide and is necessarily
transnational.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/lydon/Writing%20Trans-Saharan%20History.pdf
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Djehuti
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^^ Thus the lyinass worm wriggles again!

 -

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^
Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and NAtive Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"


I read some of the book via google and I don't believe that it is particularly well argued. The way that Forbes uses his sources to make logical leaps is astounding. For instance, he argues that the pre-Inuit Dorset culture may have reached Greenland, based on old European Sagas of contact .Since they are no longer there, he assumes that they must have been ran out by the Norse and that since the Norse were slave traders, they probably took them as slaves and that these were the slaves described later as "Indigo" in Iberian markets. These are huge leaps considering the fact that we haven't even established that the Norse found Inuit there in the first place (that's an argument in and of its self that needs to be explored and substantiated before we proceed to the next step).

Also, the way he brushes aside the evidence of trans-Atlantic crossings from Africa is just plain lazy and equally non-nonsensical. For instance, in response to a claim that the Americans possessed alloyed spears of the type known in Sierra Leone, he cites Alviso da Ca'da's observation that the people of Jolof carried swords and iron (not alloyed) spears and that the inhabitants possessed dugout canoes for fishing, but mentioned no large ships, and because of this, it is unlikely that West Africans (presumably all Africans from Senegal to Nigeria) were crossing oceans around this time. LMAO.. I mean he completely ignored historical evidence showing for instance, that the Mandinka were making alloyed spears and large boats just down river. How he can cite Van Sertima a few pages back and still come to that conclusion is beyond me.

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LOL, its funny how those stuck out to you as well. The part about the Natives of Senegal not having boats it what got me. Van Sertima provided some good evidence that proves Africans were able to make it to the Americas. Ive always been in favor of West Africans doing this BTW rather than Nilotics.

Also we know that Blacks and Tawney and black Berbers were able to reach the Canaries etc.

Then again the book seems to be dedicated to African and American contact after the arrival of European powers rather than an ancient contact which he is obviously unfamiliar with.

He even says he is only providing "tantalyzing data"rather than hard archeology. but yeah the whole boat thing stood out to me as sloppy.

Ill keep you all posted as I read more..
quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^
Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and NAtive Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"


I read some of the book via google and I don't believe that it is particularly well argued. The way that Forbes uses his sources to make logical leaps is astounding. For instance, he argues that the pre-Inuit Dorset culture may have reached Greenland, based on old European Sagas of contact .Since they are no longer there, he assumes that they must have been ran out by the Norse and that since the Norse were slave traders, they probably took them as slaves and that these were the slaves described later as "Indigo" in Iberian markets. These are huge leaps considering the fact that we haven't even established that the Norse found Inuit there in the first place (that's an argument in and of its self that needs to be explored and substantiated before we proceed to the next step).

Also, the way he brushes aside the evidence of trans-Atlantic crossings from Africa is just plain lazy and equally non-nonsensical. For instance, in response to a claim that the Americans possessed alloyed spears of the type known in Sierra Leone, he cites Alviso da Ca'da's observation that the people of Jolof carried swords and iron (not alloyed) spears and that the inhabitants possessed dugout canoes for fishing, but mentioned no large ships, and because of this, it is unlikely that West Africans (presumably all Africans from Senegal to Nigeria) were crossing oceans around this time. LMAO.. I mean he completely ignored historical evidence showing for instance, that the Mandinka were making alloyed spears and large boats just down river. How he can cite Van Sertima a few pages back and still come to that conclusion is beyond me.


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Carlos Coke
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@lioness

'the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.'

Not sure I understand what you're attempting to say here, but surely a reference to a group of people in Africa as being 'quite black', -with 'quite' apparently having an emphatic meaning akin to 'very', or 'particularly'- is to suggest African ancestry? In the same way that a reference to a people in Europe being 'quite white' would suggest very white-skinned indicate European ancestry?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

'the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.'

Not sure I understand what you're attempting to say here, but surely a reference to a group of people in Africa as being 'quite black', -with 'quite' apparently having an emphatic meaning akin to 'very', or 'particularly'- is to suggest African ancestry? In the same way that a reference to a people in Europe being 'quite white' would suggest very white-skinned indicate European ancestry?

show me a tribe of people who are straight haired (not bushy) and "quite" black.

.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^
BTW, Adams claims that he caused a sensation among the Moors because they had never seen a "White" person before. Yet Adams was a Mulatto and according to his scribe was quite Dark Himself.

Off topic, I just got "Africans and Native Americans" by Jack D Forbes(RIP) off Amazon today. Filled with alot of good in depth info. Forbes went to work on this book..

will def. share some useful info with the forum..

jari - do you know what page of the text talks about Adams causing a sensation because of his color?
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

'the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.'

Not sure I understand what you're attempting to say here, but surely a reference to a group of people in Africa as being 'quite black', -with 'quite' apparently having an emphatic meaning akin to 'very', or 'particularly'- is to suggest African ancestry? In the same way that a reference to a people in Europe being 'quite white' would suggest very white-skinned indicate European ancestry?

show me a tribe of people who are straight haired (not bushy) and "quite" black.

.

Some people on this site have called the Woodabe Fulani straight-haired; it apparently doesn't mean the same as modern African Americans would use it.

since you are so concerned about how African Americans use things. [Roll Eyes]

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Snowden is good for uncovering primary texts and
artworks. He was not at all trained in physical
anthropology and made up his own definition for
assigning negroes and negroids as suited himself.

 -

His ideas on "racially mixed segments" pertaining
to people not labeled Aethiopian is merely his
own opinion not supported by the primary texts
either in whole or in part and that's why he
says "perhaps" which also indicates perhaps not.

Snowden was a proponent of the full blown "true
negro" concept and its accompanying "Hamitic
hypothesis" without the corellate "true blanco"
and "Aryan race" which if you have the one you
must have the other or else you're not playing
fair and restricting black to a limited extreme
while allowing white a free range of phenotypes.

See Snowden (1970) pp.7-10, 14. esp Table A.

Very well stated.
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
I retract the above statment it seems some of the Sanhadja did prohibit marriage with Sudanis but it had nothing to do with race of course.

Riiiiighhht! [Wink]

Here are the Bidane Maurs.

 -

 -

 -

Unless you have been totally lobotomized you would realize there is no way they could remain this light over the centuries unless they kept to themselves. There has clearly been an aparthied in Mauritania and there is a strong racial element involved. Aparently they felt that light skin was the property of the the true berbers/Sanhaja and they have sought to preserve this. [Smile]

Here are Black Mauritanians

 -

You can try to squirm all you want and make claims about what was...many years ago, and dispute the meaning of simple words like White and Black etc. Thats all afrocentrics are good for. But pictures don't lie.

Then all Euronuts are good for is distorting facts. Bidane in Africa did not equal whitish in the European sense or so post as you like. We have already shown you how the word Bidane was mainly used in Africa and in fact is still used particularly in Mauritania and southward.

Human Rights Practices: Mauritania, published by the U.S. Department of State. The Report of March 4, 2002 states, “Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors are divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and are distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often is difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color.”

That is not something that Afrocentrists made up - google it.

Most so called Bidane are the color of Tuareg and Haratin - not yellowish white people who are a minority and undoubtedly a product of the "white slave trade".

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana wrote:

The Tuareg - a Sanhaja or Berber people - use to kill women whose complexion were of her color. Colonial texts tell of how a European woman had the gall to try to ride into their territory and how she had her arm lopped off by sword of a Tuareg who thought she was a ghost.

Yeah that's why the Tuareg of the Fezzan have higher frequencies of European mtDNA H1, more than any other population in the world! Looks like they luved them some white women. [Big Grin]

Stop hatin'!

I was not making this up. Don't shoot the messenger. Obviously the Tuareg at that time could care less about what their mtdna said.

And yes, they apparently did "love them some white women" at one time as did all the early Berbers and Arabs, but it obviously wasn't enough to change them into a truly white looking people as it did so many other Moors and Arabs. [Wink]

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"In Manilius' order complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania"

So why should I believe there was some drastic change??


east dark are
(a)- Aethiopes
(b)- India
(c)- Aegyptia
(d)- Afrorum
(d)- Mauretania"


A
 -

B
 -

C
 -  -

D(Saharan Type)

 -
 -

D(Coastal Type)/(mixture with European Migrants)
 -


 -
You're dismissed...


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mena7
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Jari great pictures of black skin complexion differences between Aethiopian, Indian, Egyptian, and Maurs/Moor.

The Metis/Mulata Maurs woman orange, yellow, amber and silver necklaces are so beautiful.

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Djehuti
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^ Jari's post was to show natural variation of complexions among indigenous Africans versus the complexions of Africans with foreign admixture. The differences are obvious. And one cannot assume that an African who has a complexion lighter than dark chocolate is mixed anymore than an African with a pale or beige complexion is pure. [Embarrassed]
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Tukuler
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^ particularly pp 1 & 4

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2017. All rights reserved.

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Djehuti
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^ Instead of posting the Loeb translation in this thread where it belongs she starts a whole other thread on this same topic. She does so to hide her debunking here which she avoids like the plague. [Wink]
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