quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Some of these Vandals, Sea People, etc. migrants, being migrants would become separated from former "tribal" affiliations and become permanent residents of Africa, if they spoke Berber they would be considered Berbers by the ancient writers, becoming part of a new culture.
True when they assimilated and thus no longer seen as Vandals or whatever.
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Lies are so easily unravelled. Melanophobe's internet source supports * northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Anyway it's looked at Morocco north of the Atlas includes Mediterranean as well as Atlantic sea- boards all of which was called Mauretania a name taken from Mauri per Manilius.
Most accounts have them reaching the Atlas. One say they go beyond. But by how much? It doesn't mention them reaching the Mediterreanean.
Observe where the Atlas reaches the Atlantic near Agadir.
That's pretty far from the Mediterranean coast. Incidently that is around the same latitude as the Draa valley which is one of the few places in Southern Morocco where Blacks were known to live in historic times. When we read about the expedition of Hanno to the west African coast it's when he reaches the Lixus which many idenitify as the Draa river that Aethiopes/Blacks are first mentioned.
"We're leaving this place came the great river Lixos coming from Libya. On the banks of nomads, the Lixites, fed their flocks. We stayed for some time with these people and have made friends with them. Above them lived the unfriendly Ethiopians whose land is full of wild beasts and broken up by high mountains, where they say the results from Lixos. They also say that about dwell in these mountains wrens strange-looking. Lixites's claim that they can run faster than horses...
It is generally agreed, the Lixos can be identified as Draa (28 ° 45 'N). The Draa is the largest river in the area, and marks the limit most southern most of the arable land. This good is the account of Hanno. Certainly the area of Herne was known to the Carthaginians because they would hardly have sent a colony to an unknown location...
In the daily discussions in Morocco, sometimes the term "Draoui" or "Draou", used in a pejorative sense to appoint a person of dark or black. This reflects, perhaps, the idea is that the people of Dra, all blacks, or that only blacks are true Draou"
posted
First off Osiris was not ressurected. He was cut up into peices, scattered around Egypt, reassembled via Mummification and brought to life in the Underworld. The idea of Dying and Ressurecting in the Underworld or Life After Death etc is a universal aspect of many Human beliefs. Well that much is true.
2)The weighing of the heart is a Nile Valley(African) invention.
Connection between Egyptian and African religions are well documented, I believe Budge dedicated a book to this.
But you do realize that someone can just as easily show connection with Middle Eastern relgions?
The Pyramids were devolped by Egyptians(Africans), the only other people to make use of the Pyramid as a tomb were the Nubians.
Also, Just so you know, because you obviously don't there are many smaller Pyramids in Upper Egypt that date from the 3rd Dynasty onward. BTW, have you seen how Djoser looked like, If you did Im sure you would be upset.
No, I guess you weren't on Topix for too long but I have brought up the Nubian pyramids time and time again to counter White racists. I was also the one who first brought up Dar Tchiit, and the first to mention Al-Jahiz a Black man who came up with a theory of evolution way before Darwin.
The Oldest "Mummified" Mummy in Africa is the African Lybian Uan.
True
So essentially you lose in you attempts to de-Africanize Egypt. You might have some points when it the Coastal Berbers and North Africans, but you aint Eurasianizing Egypt. Won't work, Egypt's connections are way to African bub..
Essentially it seems that you base Egypt's Africaness on the mere fact that Egypt is located on the African continent. Whereas I am looking for significant religious and cultural elements which are shared by most African people throught the continent. In any case my argument is not to say that Egypt was a Eurasian culture or people, but that Egypt had a unique culture which was the result of different influences, it was not exclusively Black African.
Also, Mr Jari-ankamun.. Egypt was a great nation that manged to accomplish a lot in it's time, but Egypt was not the only shining star in the Near East in anicent times. It had serious rivals in Mesopotamia and the Levant who also had advanced civilizations, some dipsutably older than Egypt. Egyptians were not always the winners on the world stage. At its height under Ramses II, couldn't even conquer all the Levant and reached a stalemate with the Hittites. A few hundred years later they got their asses handed to them by the Assyrians, then the Persians, then the Nubians, The Greeks, the Romans etc. And I mention all of this because of your statements about "Eurasian barbarians" and what not..
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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But you do realize that someone can just as easily show connection with Middle Eastern relgions?
How so..?? You realize majority of Egyptian religion was developed in the Nile Valley, many of which came from the South. The Few comparisons between Egypt and Near EAstern beliefs are minute at best and more often than not are in fact found first in Egypt not the Near East.
Here is a post on my blog with more detailed comparisons..
Note that I have not even gone into detail on other aspect such as Amun's southern/NHSI connection, the Worship of Ram Headed Gods found throughout Africa.
Divine Kingship, Burial Practices, the Southern Saharan origin of the Goddess Mut and the Cow Goddess cults.
etc.
No, I guess you weren't on Topix for too long but I have brought up the Nubian pyramids time and time again to counter White racists. I was also the one who first brought up Dar Tchiit, and the first to mention Al-Jahiz a Black man who came up with a theory of evolution way before Darwin.
Egyptsearch was probably the first site to mention Dar Tchilitt and Oulata. Same for Al-Jahiz. I commend you for that but I would not be suprized if you found out via ES about those topics or used resources/Information from Egyptsearch Members.
I doubt if not for Al-takruri that Dar Tilctt would be widely discussed on the Net.
Goes to show you how much weight E.S has.
BTW, both topics will be discussed on my blog soon enough.
No, I guess you weren't on Topix for too long but I have brought up the Nubian pyramids time and time again to counter White racists. I was also the one who first brought up Dar Tchiit, and the first to mention Al-Jahiz a Black man who came up with a theory of evolution way before Darwin.
Well Egypt is in Africa as well as the Nile. Is not Spain in Europe and China in Asia?? Second its much more than that. As I said her Religion, Language, Customs, and Founding population were mostly Africans.
Whereas I am looking for significant religious and cultural elements which are shared by most African people throught the continent.
I just posted my first blog post that is dedicated to this, at least the Religious part..
In any case my argument is not to say that Egypt was a Eurasian culture or people, but that Egypt had a unique culture which was the result of different influences, it was not exclusively Black African.
No one is saying it was "Exclusively" Black african. Obviously no Nation/Empire can be exclusively anything. However it was an African Empire Founded by Tropical Africans who were the majority until later dynastic times.
The Day that Eurocentric and Classicists proclaim Greece as being Multicultural and not "Excusively" White European will be the day I take that line serious. I don't understand why Egypt is the only Empire where so much attention is payed to the foreign migrants as opposed to the Founding population.
Also, Mr Jari-ankamun.. Egypt was a great nation that manged to accomplish a lot in it's time, but Egypt was not the only shining star in the Near East in anicent times. It had serious rivals in Mesopotamia and the Levant who also had advanced civilizations, some dipsutably older than Egypt. Egyptians were not always the winners on the world stage. At its height under Ramses II, couldn't even conquer all the Levant and reached a stalemate with the Hittites. A few hundred years later they got their asses handed to them by the Assyrians, then the Persians, then the Nubians, The Greeks, the Romans etc. And I mention all of this because of your statements about "Eurasian barbarians" and what not..
I have no real problem with Eurasians as long as they are not used as a scape goat in founding African Empires. Non Africans are not needed to found African Empires. If anything the Eurasian folks in Egypt testifies to the openeess, fairness and equality of African people. This same type of Equality was seen in Axum, Timbuctoo etc. where non Africans were able to come in and reach high positions like the natives. This is the difference between a European, Arab and African. The Latter is much more open, and never invented some racial bias to discriminate. Even when Egyptians subjugated Levantines they would take their Sons to Egypt and give them a Royal Education rather than Segregate them and claim God Cursed them a certain color.
That said I rather like Sumaria. Babylonia was nice also.
BTW when I say "Eurasian" Im not only talking about the White Ones. There were quite a few Darkskinned and even black Eurasians. The Sumarians were Austaioid/Veddoid looking if Im not mistaken, same with the Elamites and Babylonians.
posted
The only properly cited primary document account we have of Aethiopes overrunning Libya is the statement in Ephorus' report from the Tartessians as in Strabo.
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Whether Ephorus, writing in the 4th century BCE about earlier events, had in mind with "seacoast" either Mediterranean or Atlantic or both, all choices are firmly located in Mauretania.
That fact is why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium CE Latin texts.
* northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Ephorus' pre-350 BCE Aethiopes are an ancestral component of post 42 CE Mauretanian population.
Map 1. showing the extent of the Anti, High, and Middle Atlases and the Rif.
Map 2. showing Nador at Middle Atlas Mediterranean sea-board from R. Moulouya
Map 3. Mauretania Tingitana (courtesy Tamazya War Tilisa
Map 4. 1000 years later international polity of the descendents of the early Mauri/Aethiopes
posted
How so..?? You realize majority of Egyptian religion was developed in the Nile Valley, many of which came from the South. The Few comparisons between Egypt and Near EAstern beliefs are minute at best and more often than not are in fact found first in Egypt not the Near East.
Possibly but as you say there are many universal mythological themes shared by many cultures.
Here is a post on my blog with more detailed comparisons..
Note that I have not even gone into detail on other aspect such as Amun's southern/NHSI connection, the Worship of Ram Headed Gods found throughout Africa.
Divine Kingship, Burial Practices, the Southern Saharan origin of the Goddess Mut and the Cow Goddess cults.
Interesting. Amun was popular in Libya. Some argue for a Libyan origin
Egyptsearch was probably the first site to mention Dar Tchilitt and Oulata. Same for Al-Jahiz. I commend you for that but I would not be suprized if you found out via ES about those topics or used resources/Information from Egyptsearch Members.
I don't know I mentioned Dar Tchitt on Topix over two years ago when I was talking to 9th element. I had ran across it on a French site but could find nothin in English about it. It's the same thing with the Bouar mgalths in Central Africa..can't find much Enlish material on them. I doubt if not for Al-takruri that Dar Tilctt would be widely discussed on the Net.
BTW, both topics will be discussed on my blog soon enough.
Well I will check it out then.
I just posted my first blog post that is dedicated to this, at least the Religious part..
No one is saying it was "Exclusively" Black african. Obviously no Nation/Empire can be exclusively anything. However it was an African Empire Founded by Tropical Africans who were the majority until later dynastic times.
The Day that Eurocentric and Classicists proclaim Greece as being Multicultural and not "Excusively" White European will be the day I take that line serious. I don't understand why Egypt is the only Empire where so much attention is payed to the foreign migrants as opposed to the Founding population.
Yes, It is annoying how some Eurocentrics will look down on Mediterranean people and yet try to pretend that ancient Greece was somehow Aryan with no Near Eastern or African influences. Total BS.
I have no real problem with Eurasians as long as they are not used as a scape goat in founding African Empires. Non Africans are not needed to found African Empires. If anything the Eurasian folks in Egypt testifies to the openeess, fairness and equality of African people. This same type of Equality was seen in Axum, Timbuctoo etc. where non Africans were able to come in and reach high positions like the natives. This is the difference between a European, Arab and African. The Latter is much more open, and never invented some racial bias to discriminate. Even when Egyptians subjugated Levantines they would take their Sons to Egypt and give them a Royal Education rather than Segregate them and claim God Cursed them a certain color.
That said I rather like Sumaria. Babylonia was nice also.
BTW when I say "Eurasian" Im not only talking about the White Ones. There were quite a few Darkskinned and even black Eurasians. The Sumarians were Austaioid/Veddoid looking if Im not mistaken, same with the Elamites and Babylonians. I believe it was the Ubaidians and Elamites who showed Veddoid faetures. The Sumerians are Believed to have come from the Central Asia somehwere.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" northof Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Thats your interpretation. There is a significant amount of tesitimony from the ancients that light skinned peoples lived above the Atlas. Pliny and Ptolemy both mention "Leukaethiops" in Morocco and contrast them with and the "Nigritae".
"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
Of course his story about Medes and Armenians reaching Spain under Hercules is fantastical conjecture,yet it is his attempt to explain the appearance and origins of the folks that lived in these regions.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
This is the second time I expose this lie. That quote is not in Sallust. Is it from another of your anonymous internet so-called sources? Do you have any idea who wrote those words?
You have proven incapable of producing primary documentation. You have proven incapable of properly citing your so-called references.
All you do is cut and paste opinions from people on the internet as if they really have any weight just because you use them as quotes.
But what else can be expected from someone who never wrote a university term paper where quoted references require author, title, and page number at minimum.
What's worse you're so blind to not see your quote supports black primacy of North Africa's Libyans and Gaetulians differentiating local blacks and southern migrant blacks in the black component.
Your source is in line with the Tartessians report that Aethiopes overran Libya. Note that Numidia includes two Atlases, the Saharan one and the Tell one.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The only properly cited primary document account we have of Aethiopes overrunning Libya is the statement in Ephorus' report from the Tartessians as in Strabo.
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Whether Ephorus, writing in the 4th century BCE about earlier events, had in mind with "seacoast" either Mediterranean or Atlantic or both, all choices are firmly located in Mauretania.
That fact is why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium CE Latin texts.
* northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Ephorus' pre-350 BCE Aethiopes are an ancestral component of post 42 CE Mauretanian population.
Map 1. showing the extent of the Anti, High, and Middle Atlases and the Rif.
Map 2. showing Nador at Middle Atlas Mediterranean sea-board from R. Moulouya
Map 3. Mauretania Tingitana (courtesy Tamazya War Tilisa
Map 4. 1000 years later international polity of the descendents of the early Mauri/Aethiopes
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
This is the second time I expose your lie. Thatquote is not in Sallust. It is from another ofyour anonymous internet so-called sources.
You have proven incapable of producing primary documentation. You have proven incapable of properly citing your so-called references.
All you do is cut and paste opinions from people on the internet as if they really have any weight just because you use them as quotes.
But what else can be expected from someone who never wrote a university term paper where quoted references require author, title, and page number at minimum.
You are an idiot. The quote is from travels in morocco by James Richardson who is summarizing a passage form Sallust's Conspiracy of Catiline and The Jurgurthine War Ch 18... Very anynomous
"But after Hercules, as the Africans think, perished in Spain, his army, which was composed of various nations,2 having lost its leader, and many candidates severally claiming the command of it, was speedily dispersed. Of its constituent troops, the Medes, Persians, and Armenians,3 having sailed over into Africa, occupied the parts nearest to our sea.4 The Persians, however, settled more toward the ocean,5 and used the inverted keels of their vessels for huts, there being no wood in the country"
One wonders why you chose to focus on this quote as if this would really disprove that folks about the Atlas were light skinned and yet leave the quotes by Pliny and Ptolemy unchallenged??
And you efforts to refute what is implied by Ephorus is laughable.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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"The Roman administrator and historian, Gaius Crispus Sallust, says of people of North Africa.
North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain."
Are you so blind to not see your quote supports black primacy of North Africa's Libyans and Gaetulians differentiating local blacks and southern migrant blacks in the black component?
Your source is in line with the Tartessians report that Aethiopes overran Libya. Note that Numidia includes two Atlases, the Saharan one and the Tell one.
All you have in your favor is a demogogue debater's bag of tricks which is useless here where fact overrules fancy and all your non-sequitors, red herrings, and strawmen.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Prime example of Melanophobe's all white Maurs.
This melanophobic concept -- the midnight spook -- remained in the European psyche and was openly in the common parlance of Euro-Americans until quite recently.
Yes, for sure refers to a white/light skinned person. Don't believe it? Substitute other white/light ethnies for Moor. Hispaniard so black Greek so black Roman so black But wait Roman so black works. Then Juvenal's satire fails, no? Juvenal's Roman reading audience obviously thought Moors were white/light. Yes!
But if honest examination is what you want broach a thread on Greco-Latin quotes concerning Maurs and other contemporaneous North Africans. Post them one by one with complete standard citation with no repeats and we'll see which colour is mostly associated with them. I gaurantee your blackless North Africa lie will be further exposed.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Who does melanophobic mulatto hate more? Is it a black mother or a black father who tarred him out of the white race he would belong to if only his white parent hadn't laid down with his black parent? Well, unable to slough off what he sees as a black taint in his blood he can seek admission to whiteness by discounting any and everything associated with blacks.
Poor sick soul, neither black nor white yet applying for honorary white status downplaying everything that is black.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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With an occasional mention of Guanches, and the occasial posting info from Mathilda's blog.
Notice they never give info on the Muwalladun conversion, the Saqalibba and the slave MArket of NAtive Iberians in Andalucia and North Africa.
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Are you really that delirious?? Look at what the source says, "who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races"
And here "these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa"
Your source is in line with the Tartessians report that Aethiopes overran Libya. Note that Numidia includes two Atlases, the Saharan one and the Tell one.
The Tartessians mention as far as the Atlas, directely South of them, and to the ATLANTIC Seaboard. This is further demonstrated by Hanno who sailed West African coast and reports Blacks after reaching the Lixos (Draa) River. I have showed you that tradition in Morocco of the Draa region being associated with Blacks since antiquity.
Here is a later source from the 10th century Arab chronicler Ibn Hawkal who talks about the "pure" Sanhaja Berbers in contrast with Banu Tanamak who were originally Blacks from Gao in Mali who became Whites from moving up North to the "Trab al-Bidan" after a few generations of mixing. I'm not going post some small quote so you can twist it out of context. Here is a link to the whole book so you can read it all for yourself. Enjoy. http://tinyurl.com/3qx58pc
All you have in your favor is a demogogue debater's bag of tricks which is useless here where fact overrules fancy and all your non-sequitors, red herrings, and strawmen.
Facts?? Lol! All you have is quotes from folks like Manilius and your dubious and forced interpretations.
And Juvenal's work was satire. And yes The Roamns had seen Blacks from Africa. Does that mean they reached the coast?? Nope.
Also, you seem ridiculously pretentious for the meager intellectual showing you display on here. It's kind of comical. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who does melanophobic mulatto hate more? Is it a black mother or a black father who tarred him out of the white race he would belong to if only his white parent hadn't laid down with his black parent? Well, unable to slough off what he sees as a black taint in his blood he can seek admission to whiteness by discounting any and everything associated with blacks.
Poor sick soul, neither black nor white yet applying for honorary white status downplaying everything that is black.
You notice I never slander posters based on their race. Apparently if someone doesn't agree with your view that Blacks overran all of Africa that means they hate Blacks. Just goes to show how clueless you are, not to mention being a low down and ENVIOUS racist!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Ho hum. Typical roorag from a phony with the **** beat out of him unable to cite ancient support texts.
Putting words in Tartessian mouths that Ephorus never reported? Bad sad broken trick you don't even believe yourself.
Ephorus' view that Aethiopes overran Libya Richard corroborates with local and incoming types of blacks as the Libyan and Gaetuli base upon which others admixed.
American minstrel black face was satire. By your sprained logic the barbs of the satire were not directed at Black Americans?
Where are your quotes of a Hispaniard, Roman or Greek so black you don't want to run into down town at midnight?
You have slandered every notice given of blacks in North Africa making you the envious racialist hater of the blood in your veins from either your supposed black mother or supposed black father. Which one of them taught you to fight hard against the reality of black presences and dish out large parts of Africa to so-called southwest Asia and favor other such white preference lies?
No coherency in your "argument" just the raving fear of a poor sick soul turned inside out in conundrum about his own hybrid makeup always beating down blacks always playing up whites.
You're just an empty showboat with no primary documentation just rehashing 17th-20th century opinions as if they are the voice of the ancients.
You're good at grandstanding but totally suck at composing a coherent post anchored on one subject with any kind of academics about it.
Challenge reissued if honest examination is what you want broach a thread on Greco-Latin quotes concerning Maurs and other contemporaneous North Africans. Post them one by one with complete standard citation with no repeats and we'll see which colour is mostly associated with them. I guarantee your blackless North Africa lie will be further exposed.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The only properly cited primary document account we have of Aethiopes overrunning Libya is the statement in Ephorus' report from the Tartessians as in Strabo.
Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-board which stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Whether Ephorus, writing in the 4th century BCE about earlier events, had in mind with "seacoast" either Mediterranean or Atlantic or both, all choices are firmly located in Mauretania.
That fact is why Maur and Aethiop can at times be synonymous in 1st millenium CE Latin texts.
* northward Aethiop movement beyond Atlas * Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Ephorus' pre-350 BCE Aethiopes are an ancestral component of post 42 CE Mauretanian population.
Map 1. showing the extent of the Anti, High, and Middle Atlases and the Rif.
Map 2. showing Nador at Middle Atlas Mediterranean sea-board from R. Moulouya
Map 3. Mauretania Tingitana (courtesy Tamazya War Tilisa
Map 4. 1000 years later international polity of the descendents of the early Mauri/Aethiopes
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Malcontent Melanophobe is getting his britches in a bunch. Meanwhile the Lyinass is not fairing so well either.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
* Moor <- Mauri = black i.e., synonymous w/Aethiop
Mauretania a name taken from Mauri per Manilius.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
There is no contradiction if you cited Takruri's entire post in its original. Mauri meant black like Aethiop, however the Greeks acknowledged that black peoples came in varying degrees of darkness or complexion. If you recalled the Greeks ranked themselves as white also in varying degrees with other whites.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
You yourself based an argument on Mauretanians not being black as Aethiopes because of the way Manilius ordered the blacks.
Now you want to claim he never made that hierarchy. Yes you are a snake...
Indeed. The lyinass snake wants to disavow the very notion of 'blackness' in regards to the Egyptians yet NEVER does she want to do the same in regards to WHITENESS. Sorry snaky but you are trampled as well. Posts: 26346 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melanophobic malcontent7: Essentially it seems that you base Egypt's Africaness on the mere fact that Egypt is located on the African continent. Whereas I am looking for significant religious and cultural elements which are shared by most African people throught the continent. In any case my argument is not to say that Egypt was a Eurasian culture or people, but that Egypt had a unique culture which was the result of different influences, it was not exclusively Black African.
LMAOH
WRONG as usual, dummy! Takruri like the rest of us KNOW that Egypt's Africaness is rooted much more than geography but biologically amongst its peoples as well as its indigenous culture!!
"...the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945
"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..."
Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt
And these are just a couple of the myriad of Egyptologists and experts who agree that ancient Egypt is as much African as Rome is European!! So where are YOUR Egyptological sources claiming the Asian influences, and I mean up to date ones!
Its features like the high status of women, to circumcision of pubescent children, to heka or magic which corresponds to voodoo, to the very institution of pharaoh as not only king but god are very much African in nature.
If you actually did REAL research into Egypt your ignorant ass would know this, but instead your focus is on de-Africanizing or essentially white-washing, so of course you don't know any of this sh|t!
If you have no interest in truth let alone scholarship then BEGONE you twit!!
Posts: 26346 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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This Garrig dude is a fraudulent google scholar who will site anything he gets from a random google search to advance his positions..
Some of the dubious sources he quotes..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Well into dynastic times
"Meanwhile the second king of the Tenth Dynasty, Wahkare Achthoes III, managed to coexist with the Asiatics on the eastern Delta. Since Thebes was advancing in the south, with his ally Asyut he attacked them at This, capturing them "like a cloudburst;" but he regretted allowing his troops to plunder the sacred tombs. Later the Theban King Inyotef II came back and drove the Heracleopolitans out of the Thinite Nome. After this, peace lasted for several decades as Wahkare reigned nearly half a century.
Sesostris I wasted no time in returning to strengthen his rule, and he extended his territory even farther south in Nubia, where gold was being mined for Egypt. Sesostris continued to mine and build, including towering granite obelisks at the Re-Atum temple at Heliopolis used during his Sed festival. At Karnak the god Amen-Re was honored with large structures. Sesostris himself was regarded as a god, and once again the power of the kings increased. He ruled for thirty-five years after his father's death and brought in his own son, Amenemhet II, as co-regent for his last two years. Amenemhet II and Sesostris II increased Egyptian prosperity by reclaiming land for agriculture in the Faiyum depression with surplus Nile water. More Asiatics immigrated into Egypt to work as servants, and trade was established as far away as Crete and Babylon. http://www.san.beck.org/EC4-Egypt.html
To the Afrocentrists who are spamming this entry with outraged comments along the line of ‘you don’t understand African diversity’, ‘Malcolm X had red hair’, ‘some Africans have Caucasian hair,’ and ‘you’ve never been to Africa’…
The average black American is about 1/5 European, which explains why black Americans occasionally crop up with blue eyes and ginger hair (although Malcolm X only went reddish in summer, not a proper ginger).
The same goes for Caucasian textured hair in Africans. The anthropologists who’ve studied the hair came to the conclusions of mostly Caucasian (Fletcher) to almost half negroid (Eugene Strouhal called it sterotypically mulatto) of the Southern oldest samples, the Badarians. Afrocentrists please note, those Strouhal and Keita studies do not include Northern Egyptians in any way. That Strouhal study is badly misquoted from in the Keita study of Badarian crania: he claimed Strouhal observed the hair to be 80% negroid, but the Strouhal study itself says no such thing, and makes it quite clear that the Southern Egyptians were of mixed ancestry. The Keita study this quote is from even states that the North Egyptian crania are different to the Southern, a fact often ignored once the words ’80% negroid’ are spotted. Also, try reading the other Keita work properly, it places Caucasians all over North Africa from the Oranian paleolithic onwards.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [b] Oh really?? Read it again.
"The tools, the pottery, and the method of burial of the earlier Omari periods all resembled those of southwestern Asia and those of the other Asiatic villages to the north. Archaeologists took note of this distinct culture by referring to it as the "Deltic Tradition."
On the Siwa in a desperation to prove they are slaves he cited a dance website..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: jari,"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.
The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."
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^ LOL Yeah, I think I figured that out once he cited Sanderson Beck! LMAO
The guy is a desperate loser who obviously must be suffering from some kind of neurosis. Perhaps he really is a messed up 'mulatto' with an identity crisis. It reminds me of Jaimie! LMAOPosts: 26346 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^^ What gets me is the dude calls Keita an "Afrocentric Fraud" which is just an unfounded slander yet posts from Mathilda's blog as if that b#tch has any credibility.
Dude is known to flip flop, in the debate on the Siwa he claimed they we Tibu Slaves, Sudanese Slaves, Chadian Slaves, now in a debate with Explorer they are West African slaves. All depending on the source his google search yeilds. HE even claimed the Original Berbers were replaced by Chadian slaves.
A damn joke for real..
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [Indeed. The lyinass snake wants to disavow the very notion of 'blackness' in regards to the Egyptians yet NEVER does she want to do the same in regards to WHITENESS. Sorry snaky but you are trampled as well. [/QB]
Stop lying I clearly stated that in the Manilius quote we are discussing he does not designate either "white" or "black" to the complexions he discusses. Learn to pay attention to the thread. How many times do I have to inform your stupid ass of this? As usual your threads consist of quoting somebody else, contributing nothing except mindless cheerleading like a teenage girl twirling a baton (or trained seal honking a horn)
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^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader". Posts: 26346 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: What gets me is the dude calls Keita an "Afrocentric Fraud" which is just an unfounded slander yet posts from Mathilda's blog as if that b#tch has any credibility.
Dude is known to flip flop, in the debate on the Siwa he claimed they were Tibu Slaves, Sudanese Slaves, Chadian Slaves, now in a debate with Explorer they are West African slaves. All depending on the source his google search yields. HE even claimed the Original Berbers were replaced by Chadian slaves.
A damn joke for real..
LOL Yeah a hilarious joke at that! Remember that he stated more than once his 'belief' that Afrasian is Eurasian in origin. Once he said that, he lost all credibility. But the Sanderson Beck thing was a riot! LOLPosts: 26346 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader". [/QB]
When you mearly copy somebody else's post and say "right on" without contributing new information does in fact make you a cheerleader and doesn't add to the dialog. You calling my comments ad hominem? That's laughable, that's like the pot calling the kettle black. Because he Manilius group them, alTakruri groups them
Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, 715 Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes 720 gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines. Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; 725a tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo 726b lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior 726a mediumque facit moderata tenorem. 725b Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris 728 exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore. adde sonos totidem vocum, totidem insere linguas et mores pro sorte paris ritusque locorum; adde genus proprium simili sub semine frugum et Cererem varia redeuntem messe per urbes nec paribus siliquas referentem viribus omnis, 735 nec te, Bacche, pari donantem munere terras atque alias aliis fundentem collibus uvas, cinnama nec totis passim nascentia campis; diversas pecudum facies propriasque ferarum et duplici clausos elephantas carcere terrae. 740 quot partes orbis, totidem sub partibus orbes, ut certis discripta nitent regionibus astra perfunduntque suo subiectas aere gentes. Laniger in medio sortitus sidera mundo, <lance ubi sol aequa pensat noctemque diemque> 744a Cancrum inter gelidumque <Caprum> per tempora veris, asserit in vires pontum quem vicerat ipse, virgine delapsa cum fratrem ad litora vexit et minui deflevit onus dorsumque levari. illum etiam venerata colit vicina Propontis et Syriae gentes et laxo Persis amictu 750 vestibus ipsa suis haerens Nilusque tumescens in Cancrum et tellus Aegypti iussa natare. Taurus habet Scythiae montes Asiamque potentem et mollis Arabas, silvarum ditia regna. Euxinus Scythicos pontus sinuatus in arcus 755 sub Geminis te, Phoebe, colit; vos Thracia, fratres, ultimus et sola vos tranans colit Indica Ganges. ardent Aethiopes Cancro, cui plurimus ignis: hoc color ipse docet. Phrygia, Nemeaee, potiris Idaeae matris famulus regnoque feroci 760 Cappadocum Armeniaeque iugis; Bithynia dives te colit et Macetum tellus, quae vicerat orbem. Virgine sub casta felix terraque marique est Rhodos, hospitium recturi principis orbem, tumque domus vere Solis, cui tota sacrata est, 765 cum caperet lumen magni sub Caesare mundi; Ioniae quoque sunt urbes et Dorica rura, Arcades antiqui celebrataque Caria fama. quod potius colat Italiam, si seligat, astrum quam quod cuncta regit, quod rerum pondera novit, 770 designat summas et iniquum separat aequo, tempora quo pendent, coeunt quo noxque diesque? Hesperiam sua Libra tenet, qua condita Roma orbis et imperium retinet discrimina rerum, lancibus et positas gentes tollitque premitque, 775 qua genitus Caesar melius nunc condidit urbem et propriis frenat pendentem nutibus orbem. inferius victae sidus Carthaginis arces et Libyam Aegyptique latus donataque rura Cyrenes lacrimis radicis Scorpios acris 780 eligit, Italiaeque tamen respectat ad undas Sardiniamque tenet fusasque per aequora terras. Cnosia Centauro tellus circumdata ponto paret, et in geminum Minois filius astrum ipse venit geminus. celeris hinc Creta sagittas 785 asserit intentosque imitatur sideris arcus. insula Trinacriae fluitantem ad iura sororem subsequitur Triviae sub eodem condita signo, proximaque Italiae tenui divisa profundo ora paris sequitur leges nec sidere rupta est. 790 tu, Capricorne, regis quidquid sub sole cadente est positum gelidamque Helicen quod tangit ab illo, Hispanas gentes et quot fert Gallia dives; teque feris dignam tantum, Germania, matrem
For this reason, various laws in the various figures disposed is a genus of men, the color of proprioque nations are formed, sociataque administer law in the limbs an equal mark the matter private treaty. Germany rises by a huge golden birth, 715 France is less than the neighboring infected shame, they Spain, contracts shillings more severe limbs. Mars, the father of the city put on the mouths of the Romans Venus is well-Gradivus miscens tempers the limbs, Greece is subtle and colored by the 720 nations prefers strong wrestling with her face to a place of exercise, and Syria by time, they betray a piece of hair. Ethiopians stain the world figure tenebrisque endowed with the nations of men less roasted India engendered; 725a FISH 726b tellusque the Egyptian Nile more gently darkened by a watered the fields of the bodies we now draw near 726a does moderate the tenor of the middle. 725b Phoebus African and sandy dust of the earth 728 drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania titulumque bears his mouth has the very color. add as many sounds of words, the same number of group languages for equal ritusque lot of places and manners; add proper genus under the seed of the fruits of a similar harvest, and returning through the cities of Ceres various all things being equal, nor the strength of husks back, 735 nor you, Bacchus, for the same office forgiving lands they pour out to others, of other hills, grapes, nor cinnamon whole produce of the fields in all directions; propriasque different faces of wild beasts of cattle shut up in prison, double the elephants and the earth. 740 how many parts of the world, under the same number of parts of the worlds, apportioned to separate the stars shine, certain regions perfunduntque subject to air their nations. RAM has placed him in the midst of the stars of the world, <lance weighs a night where the sun is equal diemque> 744a Cancer <Caprum> by time, between the cold truths, asserts that the sea into the forces which he had conquered, Virgin coming down to the shore with his brother vexit and decrease the burden of deflevit dorsumque raised up. venerated him also cultivates the neighboring Propontis 750 nations, and loose clothing, Persians, and Syria garments, clinging fast to its Nilusque tumescens Cancer of Egypt in the commands to swim and relax. Taurus has a powerful Asiamque the mountains of Scythia Arabians and soft, a wealthy kingdoms of the woods. Scythian Sea sinuatus the sea in a bow 755 Gemini under you, Phoebus, worships you Thrace, brethren, the last and only you Tell tranans worships the Ganges. Cancer burn the Ethiopians, to whom most of fire: the color of this he teaches. Phrygia, Nemeaee, rather The servant of the mother's fierce Idaean regnoque 760 Cappadocia Armeniaeque the ridges; Bithynia rich Macetum worships you and region, which had conquered the world. Happy under the chaste Virgin by land and sea Rhodes is, the guest of the prince who was to rule the world, and then truly the house of the Sun, to whom is consecrated the whole, 765 when they caught the light of the great under Caesar of the world; Ionia also are the Dorian cities and fields, Arcadians ancient Caria celebrataque reputation. rather he cultivates that Italy, if choose, the star than that all the king's, knows that the weights of things, 770 separates points out the palms of her unjust and equitable, which depend on the times, which together night and day? Hesperia Libra holds his own, by which the foundation of Rome the world, and the government retains the differences of things, and scales have been set down tollitque premitque nations, 775 begotten Caesar founded the city which is now better their own bridles hanging on the gestures and the world. star of the towers of conquered Carthage lower Libya and the side Aegyptique donataque fields Alice in Wonderland: 780 acres of Cyrene, tears of the root chooses and Italy, however, look to the waves Fusasque seas and Sardinia holds lands. Cnosia Centaur region, surrounded by sea prepare, and in a double star of the younger son he comes to double. 785 Crete, hence the swift arrows attentively the star asserts that imitates the bow. rights flowing to the sister island of Sicily followed by Trivia founded under the same sign, Italy was divided, and nearest the depth of a thin star is not broken, it follows the laws of the mouths of equal. 790 you, Capricorn, the king of whatever falls under the sun gelidamque Helicen touches that lies from him, France bears the Spaniards, and how many rich nations; you worthy of only the wild beasts, Germany, the mother of
to say that one list of complexions is "black" and another is "white" as if these terms have a measurable meaning is false. That is an attempt to apply modern racial definitions. The skin of people has varying amounts of melanin in it and there is a wide range. Attempts to divide this wide range is racilism.
By above definitions even though all the persons above have brown skin only some are called "black" that is because the term "black" as used in modern times has racial baggage attached to it about features and hair whereas to call someone "brown" mearly states fact. Somebody might look at the above people and called some of them "sunburt". First of all they don't know what the skin tone they were born with was and secondly it is irrelevant because the people look like this on a daily basis and are dark regardless of why they are dark.
When ancient writers called someone black it did not match modern racial concepts. Therefore all of the above persons could be called black by ancient writers. The term "Moor" for example is used loosely.
example:
St. James the Moor Slayer
St. Maurice
^^^ this shows the varying conception of the European conception of Moor, likewise "black"
Posts: 42986 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Ho hum. Typical roorag from a phony with the ****beat out of him unable to cite ancient support texts.
No, what I actually see is that you ignore most of what I post only to to attack certian quotes that you THINK you can refute.
Ephorus' view that Aethiopes overran Libya Richard corroborates with local and incoming types of blacks as the Libyan and Gaetuli base upon which others admixed.
Sure it does. I love how you take the opportinity to misconstrue the whole thing...that they overran Libya, when the actual source sets clearly defined geographical parameters.
Where are your quotes of a Hispaniard, Roman or Greek so black you don't want to run into down town at midnight?
Umm an Hispaniard?? What is that question supposed to prove? It's not as if I am saying there were no Blacks in Africa. Just most of the ones North of the Atlas were not. How in your childish mind does Juvenal's satire prove me wrong? Lol!
You have slandered every notice given of blacks in North Africa making you the envious racialist hater of the blood in your veins
Oh Geez! I have slandered Blacks because I don't believe in your horse sh!t. kind of sensitive aren't we? Is that your akward emotional appeal. You expect me to side with your view because I'm part Black? Lol. How pathetic you are.
No coherency in your "argument" just the raving fear of a poor sick soul turned inside out in conundrum about his own hybrid makeup always beating down blacks always playing up whites.
You're just an empty showboat with no primary documentation just rehashing 17th-20th century opinions as if they are the voice of the ancients.
I wish I had a hankie for your tears..
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Simply put, "a great part of the sea-board" north of Dyris is a subset of the whole said sea-boardwhich stretches on the Atlantic side of Morocco from modern Tiznit (re Anti-Atlas) or Essaouira (re High Atlas) to Morocco's Mediterranean side at Nador (re Middle Atlas).
I see you already slipped in a little lie right in the first sentence. The seabord in question is not said to be North of Dryis. Otherwise they would have the Aethiopians overran Libya all the way up the northen coast. but they are careful not to say that. Why? The seaboard is to the West. To say the Mediterranean coast is a subset of the enitire seaboard is some specious Bs and you know it. Apparently many on here are too dumb to see it. The ancients made a distinction beteween the Mediterranean and the Atalantic outside the straits of Gibraltar
Some Aethiopes who left Dyris to "occupy a great part of the sea-board" would have traveled the Moulouya river for direct easy travel to the Mediterranean just as easily as moving northward along the coast of the Atlantic by others.
I'm sure that would have been noteworthy for the ancients to have mentioned, don't you?
Since Strabo uses the word sea-board in the singular not the plural we see the whole of what the Romans called Mauretania Tingitana is involved.
Bwaa haa haa ha ha ha!
That's cute. Now let me break it down for you. Many of the ancient Europeans referred to North Africans as being dark. The same is true today. As Manilius and other have implied they often made a distinction between swarthy folks and Blacks. I already quoted Arrian and Strabo who compared Egyptians to the lighter North Indians rather than to blacks. Manilius also has a color scheme whose bitting irony was not lost on the Lioness, but you were too dense between the ears to appreciate, and that is he has your precious mauretanians as being the lightest of all African peoples! And when you throw in the pale skinned libyans that we know existed and The leukaethiopians and light Garamantes reported by herodotus, one wonders just how light these folks had to be. And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
The cards are stacked against you.
Btw congratualtions! Jari, Dejhuti and others seem to look up to you and value your opinion. That qualifies you as the bonfide king of dummies!
But you will never get past me with your specious arguments and bogus interpretations. It's fun to watch you try though.. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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You have to be kidding me if you think the "whites" of the Islamic world is equal to the definition of Whites today. First off the Islamic texts and geographers believed in the idea of the 7 climate zones, with the Med as the "Temperate Zone" which was seen as being the habitation of those descending from "Shem". This today would be dismissed as idiotic but people who need to prove their agenda will use it to prove no Blacks were in North Africa..LMAO.
Even the Byzantines were included as Shemites to further this "Temperate Zone" ideology. You realize in the same quote these Muslim Geographers believed that if a Mehgrebi moved to the Sudan after 7 Generations his people would resemble Sudanis and if Sudanis moved to the Temerate Zone after 7 Generations they would resemble the people of the Temperate Zones..
Complete Rubbish.
This is why you have Ibn Bhattuta distinguishing between the "Land of the "Whites" and Land of the Blacks, which Bidan had nothing really to do with "White" but with Temperate Zones and Sudan with extreemly dark people.
You don't know if the Bidanes were Brown Skinned, Pale Skinned, Light Brown etc. Any researcher not familiar with Arabic and able to demonstrate the Original Arabic Texts and Able to put these Texts into their time frame should use Medieval Muslim Geography with Caution, this includes Al Jahiz Boasts of the Sudan to Bidan...which was nothing more than the boasts of one Climate Zone the "Bilad Es Sudan against the "Temperate/Bidan" Climate Zone.
One should use these with caution and not try to racialize and force Western Racial thinking on Texts that have nothing to do with such constructs.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: That's cute. Now let me break it down for you. Many of the ancient Europeans referred to North Africans as being dark. The same is true today. As Manilius and other have implied they often made a distinction between swarthy folks and Blacks. I already quoted Arrian and Strabo who compared Egyptians to the lighter North Indians rather than to blacks. Manilius also has a color scheme whose bitting irony was not lost on the Lioness, but you were too dense between the ears to appreciate, and that is he has your precious mauretanians as being the lightest of all African peoples! And when you throw in the pale skinned libyans that we know existed and The leukaethiopians and light Garamantes reported by herodotus, one wonders just how light these folks had to be. And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
The cards are stacked against you.
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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It amazes me how one can lie and distort time after time. Were you not given scholarly sources on the Subjects you just tried to distort?? Whats wrong Garrig, no white supremist, Anti black website that disorts Muslim Geography and omits valuable information on the Andalucian history to Copy N Paste from??
Is this why you constantly need to lie and distort??
PHny, Mela and Ptolemy all refer to the Leucaethiopes, but they give no description of the people thus designated.
Pliny in his Lib. v. cap. 8, Hist. Natur. writes : Interiori autem ambitu Africae ad meridiem versus superque Gaetulos, inter- venientibus desertis, primi omnium Libyaegyptii, deinde Leucaethiopes habitant.
Translated: But more than the area of the interior of Africa to the south towards the Gaetulians, between- came the deserts, the first of all Libyaegyptii, and then dwell Leucaethiopes.
Agathemenos retires again behind those convenient intervening deserts, and merely says that west of Egypt are situated among other nations the Aeu/cat^toTj-es.
The Fact that the Leukoathiopians have no description and the fact they are identified with "Athiopies" is further Damagine to your case.
On the Garamantes..
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Taureg are still lightskinned as compared to other Africans, and the Garamantes were described as Athipies meaning blacks.
I think the Taureg still resemble how the Garamantians looked. Some are Dark most are light skinned. .
Your scrambling, lying and disortions in a failed attempt to exclude blacks from North Africa and among the Berbers fails miserably.
Not only is other Etymology, descriptions and art from both Egyptian and Greco-Roman sources but there are black Berbers today.
I know you wish you dismiss it away with a wave of your hand but the world don't work like that Bub..
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Boy, you must think you can slip and slide your way out of this and its not going to happen.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Now let me break it down for you. Many of the ancient Europeans referred to North Africans as being dark. The same is true today. As Manilius and other have implied they often made a distinction between swarthy folks and Blacks. I already quoted Arrian and Strabo who compared Egyptians to the lighter North Indians rather than to blacks. Manilius
Not really you simply cherry picked the Lightest Indians you can find. Simple research shows that there are quite a number or Dark Brown and Reddish Brown Indians to contrast with the Black Southern Dravidians.
Any one with a Functioning Brain can go an see excactly what "Athiopies" meant to the Greeks.
^^^^ Majority of Africans are not that dark, If you are basing your assertions that the Egyptians, black and Sahran Berbers did not look like that well..Duh..LOL,
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: precious mauretanians as being the lightest of all African peoples!
Yes, but You an Lioness seem to avoid the Shade Variation or Europeans and Asiatics according to Manillius.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Notice again the the Mauritanians were not part of this group...Sad for you..this destroyes your attempts to enforce racialism on Muslim Geographers(more on that later)...
"Shomarka Keita, a biological anthropologist from Howard University, has claimed that populations in Carthage circa 200 BC and northern Algeria 1500 BC were very diverse. As a group, they plotted closest to the populations of Northern Egypt and intermediate to Northern Europeans and tropical Africans. Keita claimed that "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance."
Carthage.. because you love you blubbery lipped True Negro..
Bertholon and Chantre (1913)noted non- Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating. Daniels (1970) reported that pre- and post-Roman Gara- mantian remains from southern Libya were Mediterranean. Negroid. and hybrid.
To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.
The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet pp. 21-22 (Much thanks to Brada for providing this)
In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor.
quote:
ABSTRACT: The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste." [/QB][/QUOTE]
Some of the Africans at Tunis descendants of the Africans at Carthage..
quote:Originally posted by liar7: And when you throw in the pale skinned libyans that we know existed and The leukaethiopians and light Garamantes reported by herodotus, one wonders just how light these folks had to be.
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posted
You are stupid if you think the Saharan Berbers(Sanhadja) were "Whites". Your misquoting and distorting of Muslim Geographers only proves you are unlearned in such subjects. Had you came to read Muslim Geographers from an unbiased point of view you might have caught on to this, but it seems you only are familiar with these works due to drive to make North African and Moors deviod of blacks.
The useage of Bidan as opposed to Sudan to the Mehgreb was due to the Muslim Geographers training on the 7 climate zones of the world. If you read some of these works you will often find contradicting and confusing statements. This is why Al-Jahiz Kitab "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan was Written. In other words a boast of one climate zone over another. If you read Al Jahiz's works many of the inhabitants of the "Temperate Zone" would be "Black People" due to their dark skin...Further damaging to your case is that None folks of these were labeled Under "Red" like the Byzantines, Persian and Rus..LMAO.
Some Saharan people/Berbers..
Must be why Ibn Butlan said..
"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja.
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
You blabbering, and copy n pasint of poorly researched Eurocentric websites won't make the Truth go away. The historical fact of Black Berbers..
^^^^ Half Italian Mutt Septimius compared to his Middle Eastern Syrium Wife, beautifully displays why Manillius has the Mauretanians as blacks, that white blood was not enough to lighten his skin to his "Middle Eastern" Syrium Wife.
Moorish Men Algeria
Garrig the silly clown's Bidanes AKA Whites..
quote:Originally posted by Garrig the Silly Clown: And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
S
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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With an occasional mention of Guanches, and the occasial posting info from Mathilda's blog.
Notice they never give info on the Muwalladun conversion, the Saqalibba and the slave MArket of NAtive Iberians in Andalucia and North Africa.
lol. yes, That is his primarily source. And it has been for many years. A while ago it was linked to an extremist white website.
When noticed the root directory, they quickly delinking it. Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: __________________________________________________________
to say that one list of complexions is "black" and another is "white" as if these terms have a measurable meaning is false. That is an attempt to apply modern racial definitions. The skin of people has varying amounts of melanin in it and there is a wide range. Attempts to divide this wide range is racilism.
By above definitions even though all the persons above have brown skin only some are called "black" that is because the term "black" as used in modern times has racial baggage attached to it about features and hair whereas to call someone "brown" mearly states fact. Somebody might look at the above people and called some of them "sunburt". First of all they don't know what the skin tone they were born with was and secondly it is irrelevant because the people look like this on a daily basis and are dark regardless of why they are dark.
When ancient writers called someone black it did not match modern racial concepts. Therefore all of the above persons could be called black by ancient writers. The term "Moor" for example is used loosely.
example:
St. James the Moor Slayer
St. Maurice
^^^ this shows the varying conception of the European conception of Moor, likewise "black"
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
this is your rebuttal to post the same picture I posted?
cry me an ocean
Posts: 42986 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
When all attempts at distortion and white washing fails just Cherry pick, LMAO at the Lyinass pulling a page from Mike's book..LOL..
Even his faded image shows a clearly Darker Skinned Septimius compared to the Average Middle Eastern and clearly than the Romans.
Compare to his Syrium Wife. ..MMMM..MMMMM..MMMMMMMMMM....
NO wonder Manillius put Mauritania with the Dark Skinned people, Imagine the Syrium is the darkest of the Leukoderms yet she sticks out like a sore thumb compared to her Half Berber Husband..
To bad!!
Septimus' Dark Mulatto skin can't be white washed, it was a sad, sad day for the melanophobes, Liars, and distorters when the Roman artists decided to color him his natural color.
Too bad...
Soo..Sooo Sad.. Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
this is your rebuttal to post the same picture I posted?
cry me an ocean
It has nothing to do with rebuttal, I just posted source info on the art which you left out.
You should say thank you.
Now begone and cry me a river. Salt lake city.
Posts: 22245 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
and so far I have not spoken of Septimius' son Caracalla..
because at this point its beating a dead horse..Septimuius' Dark Skin speaks for itself, but the fact that the Syrian and Italian blood could not starighten out that nappy hair on Caracalla's head and chin is the final nail in the coffin of those claiming Septimius was not a dark skinned Mulatto with African phenotype.
Now go fetch and cherry pick some Persian with hair as Tightly curled as Caracalla's. Stick your head back in the sand, because this is yet another body blow....
another loss...
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Family of Emperor Septimius Severus, ca. 200 A.D., with his sons Caracalla and Geta and his wife Julia Donna. Geta's image has been scratched out. Tempera on wood, 30.5 cm diameter. Staaliche Museen zu Berlin, Germany.
Mulattos don't have this hair type which shows distinct straight Parallel hiar strands which form larger curls
as opposed to kinky hair like Barack and I have in which each hair starnd is coiled to begin with
you have got to be kidding me
as per skin tone: Posts: 42986 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Yet now she wants to play dumb and claim Mulattoes can't have or produce wavy hair..
Sorry for her Caracalla left his hair unstyled..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Mulattos don't have this hair type which shows distinct straight Parallel hiar strands which form larger curls
as opposed to kinky hair like Barack and I have in which each hair starnd is coiled to begin with Blah Blah Blah
LMAO @ the cherry picked Images of Europeans and Non Africans. As I said when all else fails simply cherry pick. To bad for the bitch Septimus was Half Italian, Half Berber.
No need for me to cherry pick, Septimus Mulatto skin speaks for itself, and Caracalla's African phenotype is the nail in the coffin.
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posted
Down to a one line statement,.... Ill take it as your admission of defeat. I was hoping to whip and beat your ass some more with more Images of Septimus and Caracalla but I see you have learned your lesson and bucked your head in submission...
Posts: 8808 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Down to a one line statement,.... Ill take it as your admission of defeat. I was hoping to whip and beat your ass some more with more Images of Septimus and Caracalla but I see you have learned your lesson and bucked your head in submission...
If Septimus had a brown skin tone it supports what I have been saying all along that that who the Europeans called Moors were not always pitch black people heads seen on some some heraldry some of them were medium skin tones like mulattoes, like many Arabs, such as:
and Berbers such as:
this mixture of people were called Moors by the Europeans at time of the conquest of Iberia
later after the Moors lost Iberia, and earlier in parts of Europe not conquered by the Muslims, the term Moor became associated with any African, and stereotyped as pitch black mascots for herladry, converts to Christainity, servants and freed servants. Most of these representations were not even of people from North Africa but were of Ethiopians and other East Africans, get it straight brother
all of the above person would have been called , Moor or black by ancient roman writers. Even in Holland to day, they call schools which have mostly a lage number of Turks and Arabs of middle skin tones and a much smaller amount of dark skinned African people students of "black schools" even though according to American concepts such schools would not be called "black" This is because the definition varies
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