posted
^^^^ I agree the Moors and Berbers don't have to be "Pitch Black" I think they would be Dark to Light Brown skin. My position has never been to deny the white Berbers but to shed light onto the Black Berbers. In this day and age Berber has become synomous with White Skinned Kaybyles when black Berbers have existed and Berbers come from blacks from the Eastern Desert.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ LOL @ the Lyinass wriggling like the WORM not 'snake' she truly is!! This is why the Lyinass likes to rely on unpainted artwork and not the painted ones!! Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpŕ, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
2).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader".
Ah, but his lead in before ranking both the whites and blacks starting each group with the "yardstick" people dichotomized by colour -- German whitest / Aethiopian blackest -- does more than just imply colour. He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant"
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant" [/QB]
In the Astronmica he mentions various different complexions, a spectrum of gradations which you say comprise "one human race". He mentioned eleven types an arbitrary number.
It is fair to say some people have darker skin than others, others have lighter skin although there is no precision in these words, it is relative in many cases.
But to take a number of descriptions, in this case eleven and divide that eleven into just two groups called under unecessary sterotypical names "black" and "white" which do not reflect the actual color, that sort of over simplification is what people call "race" and dividing the eleven types that Manilius mentioned into a grouping of two is not something Manilius did in the quote from Astronomica. Ask the average person on the street "is a dark skin person a race" ? The will probably say no it's just a skin type. Then ask what are examples of races? They will likely say black, white and Asian. I advise people don't play games with the lioness and try to pretend that calling brown skinned people black has no racial implications, no baggage, no history as to such a word being used. That's like Barack calling me his nigga in public and claiming it's a term of endearment. It's not going to happen, even in private
The above quote in latin from Astronomica translated (bold) with more:
will be the ends of the pontusque to be called, which divides the stars one by one into the parts of God each has his own, and gave to the protection of the kingdoms throughout the world cities and their own nations and an added deep, assert outstanding stars in which the forces. 700 and signs is arranged as a human figure, and, although he goes throughout the whole of the protection of the body, and goes out on its own divided artubus (for the ram to the head, clings to the neck of Taurus, Gemini consider to be under arms, breast Cancer, 705 you shoulder, Nemeaee, they call that you, O Virgin, Libra cultivates the groin hind-quarters, and the scorpion reigns, HOLDING A BOW and female, Capricorn knees and loved, cruraque defends Young man, the steps of the fishes), other lands claims for himself, so another star. 710 For this reason , various laws in the various figures disposed is a genus of men, the color of proprioque nations are formed, sociataque administer law in the limbs an equal mark the matter private treaty. Germany rises by a huge golden birth, 715 France is less than the neighboring infected shame, they Spain, contracts shillings more severe limbs. Mars, the father of the city put on the mouths of the Romans
^^^ what we have is poetic ramblings and a viewpoint derived from Astrology.
From this we are supposed to go beyond skin color descriptions and translate it into some sort of definative racial map?
posted
^ @Lyin'Arse You call that garble a translation? Just another Lyin'Arse Fuh-cuption. The least you could do is use Leob's.
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1).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpŕ, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
2).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader".
Ah, but his lead in before ranking both the whites and blacks starting each group with the "yardstick" people dichotomized by colour -- German whitest / Aethiopian blackest -- does more than just imply colour. He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant"
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
quote: lines 711-714 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
lines 715-722 flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
lines 723-730 Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It's impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I post.
First Manilius orders white complexions from the most light to the least light (in lines 715-22) - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syriam.
Then Manilius' order of black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (as in lines 723-730)
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania.
Manilius did the above after announcing the fact of variation in the one human race, its colours being his primary consideration of human anatomy (opening lines 711-714).
Manilius made a hierarchy. He wasn't random in the least. He starts from Hyperborean to Mediterranean and concludes with Tropical to Mediterranean. This is the Graeco-Islamic zone system of lands and peoples under the Sun through the Zodiac.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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look at alTak he keeps doing the same thing over and over again.
Manilius mentions, within a poetically written text, eleven skin complection types. What is the bitch God or something? I digress..
Nowhere does he break down his mentions into "black" and "white" or even arrange them in list form.
alTak is being dishonest about this. He posts the latin only and then inserts the alTaky concept that we are looking at a "heirarchy" an inappropriate racially tinged word to apply.
Then he takes Manilius mention of eleven skin complections and tries to categorize it into the two part system racial system called "the world is either black or white". as if Manilus did that in the text. He did not.
That's alTacky trickery. It's spurious. It's fradualant scholarship and imposes race concepts which people in this forum try to pretend they aren't a part of. this is a bust,
So when we look at eleven different shades of people's skin what is the cutoff point that makes one person black and another white? What is the middle within this scale which divides people into "black" and "white" ?
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Afrorum? @ alTakruri, where'd you get that from, who were they?
Manilius Astromomica 4.728 those between Egypt and Mauretania, including the Aourigha, who were the ones who at first rented land to the Phoenician founders of Carthage. No longer inhabiting that area, the Afer did continue to dwell south of it and far into the desert.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: From page 1 of this thread, we have:
quote: ..Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
Besides unintelligible machine "translation" that Wally and Lyin'Arse posted, there are other poor attempts at English translation of the Latin like the one done back in the 17th century. DJ's cumpŕ, whom you quote, did do a decent job and I'd like to collaborate with him. Meanwhile, here's mine
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: So does Afrorum even refer to a people here? Doesn't really look like it.
The name we use for the continent Africa ultimately derives from a word that entered the Indo-European languages as a borrowing from Punic or the indigenees themselves. Afrorum is the Latin plural of Afer (African), the folk Phoenicians bargained with at what's now far NE Tunisia (see this TNV thread on the Etymology of Africa).
2).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course while Manilius never used the actual designations of 'white' of 'black', those colors were IMPLIED in his writings, dummy! Why else would he group Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Indians in one hand but Spaniards, Germanics, Greeks, and even Syrians on another??
Does that bother you to know that he didn't group Egyptians together with Syrians or with his people (Greeks)?? I think it does. Which is why you resort to emotional ad-hominem attacks on me. Just because support Takruri's valid assertions unlike yours does not make me a "cheerleader".
Ah, but his lead in before ranking both the whites and blacks starting each group with the "yardstick" people dichotomized by colour -- German whitest / Aethiopian blackest -- does more than just imply colour. He outright tells us at line 712 that skin colour (complexion) is his primary variation for arranging the one human race.
"Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant"
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
quote: lines 711-714 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
lines 715-722 flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
lines 723-730 Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It's impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I post.
First Manilius orders white complexions from the most light to the least light (in lines 715-22) - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syriam.
Then Manilius' order of black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (as in lines 723-730)
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania.
Manilius did the above after announcing the fact of variation in the one human race, its colours being his primary consideration of human anatomy (opening lines 711-714).
Manilius made a hierarchy. He wasn't random in the least. He starts from Hyperborean to Mediterranean and concludes with Tropical to Mediterranean. This is the Graeco-Islamic zone system of lands and peoples under the Sun through the Zodiac.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Manilius composed a hierarchy of the white and black peoples known in his day by descending intensity of pallor or color in lines 711-730 of his Astronomicon as below.
this statement is a lie.
Manilius mentions the skin tones of even nationalities. He does not mention them in the context of "black" and "white" although alTak and others wish he did because they believe it is prime importants that all people fit into either "black" or "white" categories
lines 711-714 Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
lines 715-722 flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilisGraecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
lines 723-730 Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus Indiatostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore. [/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Anyone with basic analytical skills will produce the same skeletal list from the reference text. It's impossible to derive any other ordered list than that which I post.
you'll notice he does this over and over agin like a broken record. He says anybody will interpret the text as he does and fit it into the two part "black" and "white" system. Of course he doesn't post what he thinks is a good translation of the above in addition to the latin he just posts the latin and encourages the gullible "trust me"
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
First Manilius orders white complexions from the.....
Then Manilius' order of black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are (as in lines 723-730)
This is a lie. He mentions them one after the other not in two groupings
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Manilius did the above after announcing the fact of variation in the one human race, its colours being his primary consideration of human anatomy (opening lines 711-714).
what a hypocrite. Manilius mentioned the skin complection of eleven nationalities. After alTakruri tries to force "black" and "white" separation onto the list he tries to cover his ass by talking about "one human race" absolutely pathetic I have buried this sucker twleve times but the zombie keeps wandering. Now he's gonna come in with more latin. throw around some terms like "Hyperborean" or the "Graeco-Islamic zone". Hope we get intimidated by the academia and assume whatever he says must be right.
posted
^ Awe, the poor lyinass baby just can't get over the FACT that the Egyptians were grouped closer to Ethiopians than to Syrians or Greeks. Whine all you want you lying worm, but you can't wriggle your way out of this one! You obviously regret bringing up Manilius's quote now, don't ya? Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Manilius' work Astronomicon is obviously about astrology. Astrology's main feature is the Sun around the Signs of the Zodiac. The Sun imparted complexion according to the Greco-Roman mentality.
In looking at lands and peoples in astrological regards to planet earth there is a Hyperborian zone which is the furthest north, an Equatorial/ Tropical zone which is the furthest south and a Mediterranean zone which is at the center in the Greek and Roman idea. These are the two antipodes, each from their extreme to their moderate levels.
What more natural then to list the northern extreme and proceed to the north Mediterranean and then to list the southern extreme and proceed to the south Mediterranean?
Within G-R limit of knowledge of course the Hyperborean people furthest from the sun are the whitest and folks' complexions become less extremely white as a nation is distanced from Ultima Thule.
Likewise Tropical people (Greco-Latin "science" posited that people could not survive Equatorial levels of heat) nearest the sun are the blackest with decreasing coloured nations as they distance from Equatoria (a modification of the Phaeton myth).
This is precisely what Manilius does starting with the whitest farthest north people his Germans to the most centrally located and least white Syrians
then from the other "pole"
starting with the blackest farthest south people his Aethiopians to the most centrally located and least black Mauretanians.
Manilius manifestly composed an order. Manilius did not leap about at random. Manilius wrote genus (race in the singular). Manilius wrote variasque figuras (varying features). Manilius recognized one human race varying in features.
Those who can't support their argument academically using the Latin and the Greco-Roman view of their world and its people applied to the text in essence have no argument only sympathy, belief, and feelings.
They need to stfu and learn.
What dope eschews Latin based study of a poetic work written in Latin yet offers an unintelligible machine "translation"? Again Loeb offers a fairly accurate translation of 4.711-730.
A good student/seeker like Jari for instance has grasped early Islamic historians knew about and expanded on the Greco-Latin system of geograhic earth zones and the effect of sun and topography on nations of peoples skin colours and anatomy.
Skilless ignoramouses may well pout, complain and ridicule in lieu of taking up the study, analyzing and synthesizing knowledge of interrelated works which they are unable to do.
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posted
Jari You have to be kidding me if you think the "whites" of the Islamic world is equal to the definition of Whites today. First off the Islamic texts and geographers believed in the idea of the 7 climate zones, with the Med as the "Temperate Zone" which was seen as being the habitation of those descending from "Shem". This today would be dismissed as idiotic but people who need to prove their agenda will use it to prove no Blacks were in North Africa..LMAO.
Even the Byzantines were included as Shemites to further this "Temperate Zone" ideology. You realize in the same quote these Muslim Geographers believed that if a Mehgrebi moved to the Sudan after 7 Generations his people would resemble Sudanis and if Sudanis moved to the Temerate Zone after 7 Generations they would resemble the people of the Temperate Zones..
Complete Rubbish.
This is why you have Ibn Bhattuta distinguishing between the "Land of the "Whites" and Land of the Blacks, which Bidan had nothing really to do with "White" but with Temperate Zones and Sudan with extreemly dark people.
You don't know if the Bidanes were Brown Skinned, Pale Skinned, Light Brown etc. Any researcher not familiar with Arabic and able to demonstrate the Original Arabic Texts and Able to put these Texts into their time frame should use Medieval Muslim Geography with Caution, this includes Al Jahiz Boasts of the Sudan to Bidan...which was nothing more than the boasts of one Climate Zone the "Bilad Es Sudan against the "Temperate/Bidan" Climate Zone.
One should use these with caution and not try to racialize and force Western Racial thinking on Texts that have nothing to do with such constructs
A feww points.
1. No, white as used by the Arabs does not mean White like the the freakin Irish, but relatvely pale in comparison to Sub Saharans. Much like North Africans of Today.
2. Berbers being all Blacks would entail a dramatic change in phenotype in fairly recent times.
3. The terms land of Blacks/Whites does not correspond to any climatic zone but does seem to correspond to present day boundries in Africa where a significant phenotypical change is noted near the southern sahara. Shall we view this as coincidence?
4. Batutta qualifies his use of White and Black with clear physiological differences stating that Whites can not eat the same food as Blacks.
5. We have ancient depictions of North Africans from greco roman times which show Eurasian people. Also we know that the neolithic brought agriculturalist from the Near East as well as Iberian mtdna into the Maghreb. How should expect this to affect the local phenotype.
6. You calim that you allow for light skiined or light brown Berbers. You seem to feel that a bit of color alone is enough for folks to cluster with Blacks. skin color does not equal race. ost North Africans and even many Southern Europeans could be considered light brown. But they are not Black. Yes other triats such as hair texture, facial features, nose shape etc do come into play.
Therefore if you are willing to admit many light brown Bebers, then I would count those as non Black.
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posted
The Fact that the Leukoathiopians have no description and the fact they are identified with "Athiopies" is further Damagine to your case.
Umm you do know that Leuko mean White right. And were are talking Libya. You remember the pale Libyans the the Egyptians depicted? Do the pieces of the puzzle fit?
And about the Garamantes sources that southre are conflicting reports. Some describe them as Black. Herodutus contrasts them with Ethiopian troglydites. One of your sources that you unwittingly quoted them as enslaving Blacks. I think mostly they were a mixed group perhaps lighter iitially becoming darker as they asorbed more sub sahran blood.
And North Indians where chosen by the ancients as a light brown color to contrast with. Trying to say that some North indians are darker skinned is irrevelant to the fact.
You ask why didn't Manilius include Mauretanians in hia European schematic, you ask. Well probably becuase they weren't European lol. And because they lived in a differnt environment. No doubt he saw them as darker then Europeans but probably not by much.
I'm sure there were Blacks in Carthage. Blacks came from the interior. Your source claims that carthage had variety of phenotypes. And was not exclusively or even mostly black.
Also The Sanhaja were a cofederation of various Berber tribes which eventually reached down into Senegal. There is no reasonn why some tribes would not have become Black from intermixing..the Masmuda perhaps. In any case certain tribes were cleraly not black. If I'm not mistaken Batutta was related to the Sanhaja himself. Moreover in mauritania today the White Moors claim descent from the Sanhaja. Coincidence?
And lastly, I don't know if Septimus looks mixed. He could easily pass for a North African Today. And his wife does not look Syrian.
Also you called him a mutt. Wtf is up with that???
sanhaja
septimus
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 1. No, white as used by the Arabs does not mean White like the the freakin Irish, but relatvely pale in comparison to Sub Saharans. Much like North Africans of Today.
You are simply dishonest. As I said before unless you can translate Arabic and can provide original texts and transliterations you should just as I should be careful of using Arabic works to prove your case.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 2. Berbers being all Blacks would entail a dramatic change in phenotype in fairly recent times.
Not really, only for the coastal Berbers. The Saharan Berbers et al are still quite dark. There are the Siwi, the Temgroute Berbers, the Tissint, the Berbers of the Saharan town of Ghadames, historical evidence of blacks in Tunis back to Carthaginean time, the blackness of the Garamantes, the blackness of ancient images of Berbers from the Egyptian Delkha and Kharga Oaisis etc.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 3. The terms land of Blacks/Whites does not correspond to any climatic zone but does seem to correspond to present day boundries in Africa where a significant phenotypical change is noted near the southern sahara. Shall we view this as coincidence?
The Idea of Bidan had nothing to do with being pale people. Many of the people called Bidan would be Brown, Dark Brown, Reddish Brown etc as opposed to extreemly black.
Many of the people of the Sahrah, Southern Lybia, Morocco etc. are Dark skinned as compared to Coastal people and resemble SSA but are not as dark.
Berbers who would be considered "Bidan"
Ghadames
Taureg
Sanhaja
4. Batutta qualifies his use of White and Black with clear physiological differences stating that Whites can not eat the same food as Blacks.
And this proves your racial point how??
Again climate zones, not different than a person living in Texas going to Mexico and not drinking the water because it supposedly makes you sick.
desperate much??
We have ancient depictions of North Africans from greco roman times which show Eurasian people. Also we know that the neolithic brought agriculturalist from the Near East as well as Iberian mtdna into the Maghreb. How should expect this to
We Also have Ancient discriptions of blacks in North Africa from greco Roman Times. Also the origin of Berber is SSA and the Eastern Deserts with the Berber HG being found as far South as Sudan etc.
I believe you are being schooled on this by Explorer on the R1b thread if I recall.
You calim that you allow for light skiined or light brown Berbers. You seem to feel that a bit of color alone is enough for folks to cluster with Blacks. skin color does not equal race.
Majority of the Sahran Berbers and Sahrans are Dark Brown, Brown light brown etc. their African origin is undeniable.
ost North Africans and even many Southern Europeans could be considered light brown. But they are not Black. Yes other triats such as hair texture, facial features, nose shape etc do come into play.
There is a clear difference, gentically, Physically, Linguistically, and Culturally than a Light brown Sahran Berber and a Southern European, the former being closer to a black Skinned Chadian or Beja than to a Southern European in all the above mentioned.
then I would count those as non Black.
As I said before your opinion is moot. I can care less what you think.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Umm you do know that Leuko mean White right. And were are talking Libya. You remember the pale Libyans the the Egyptians depicted? Do the pieces of the puzzle fit?
Lybia is not Atheiopia and the people depicted by Egyptian came from Coastal North Africa not Athiopia. As before there is no detailed description of the Leuko Ethiopians, and Luekoethiopians would translate as " whites blacks" or "White Negros" LMAO
I don't see that helping your case.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And about the Garamantes sources that southre are conflicting reports. Some describe them as Black. Herodutus contrasts them with Ethiopian troglydites. One of your sources that you unwittingly quoted them as enslaving Blacks. I think mostly they were a mixed group perhaps lighter iitially becoming darker as they asorbed more sub sahran blood.
So then the Gramantes were associated with Athiopies, I.E blacks. Case closed, not need to insert personal opinions but then again, this is what you seem to be good at.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And North Indians where chosen by the ancients as a light brown color to contrast with. Trying to say that some North indians are darker skinned is irrevelant to the fact.
Again you can't prove that the quote involved "Light Skinned" Indians can you. All you can do is cherry pick. I can however compare Reddish brown Egyptians(the Color which Egyptians Caracatured themselves as having) with Northern Indians of the same Color. It not Irrelevent when many Northern Indians are Reddish Brown and Dark Brown as compared to pitch Black Dravidians and the Egyptians applied the Same Reddish Brown v. Pitch black contrast themselves.
Does'nt farewell for you.
You ask why didn't Manilius include Mauretanians in hia European schematic, you ask. Well probably becuase they weren't European lol. And because they lived in a differnt environment. No doubt he saw them as darker then Europeans but probably not by much.
Yet and still they were not counted as Leukos, despite some of them being quite Dark Themselves.
And Septimius proves how Dark some Coastal Berbers can get even with white admixture.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I'm sure there were Blacks in Carthage. Blacks came from the interior. Your source claims that carthage had variety of phenotypes. And was not exclusively or even mostly black.
Majority of those blacks were Natives as Blacks are Native to North Africa. Where did I say Cathage was exclusivly black don't strawman me.
Also The Sanhaja were a cofederation of various Berber tribes which eventually reached down into Senegal. There is no reasonn why some tribes would not have become Black from intermixing..the Masmuda perhaps. In any case certain tribes were cleraly not black. If I'm not mistaken Batutta was related to the Sanhaja himself.
Many of the Sanhadja were described as being blacks and browns with Africoid features, no different than many Sahran people of today.
Moreover in mauritania today the White Moors claim descent from the Sanhaja. Coincidence?
LMAO, why do you keep invoking the White Moors, many of the White Moors have black blood in them and many of the Black Moors have "White Moor" or Arab/white Berber blood in them.
Some "White Moors"
If anything this proves my case that Bidan had nothing to do with being Pale, many Moderatly Dark and even Dark Brown people would be Bidan. Hell compared to the above my Dad who joined the Nation of Islam and told me once that he believed at one point the White man was the Devil would be a f-ing Bidane as he is considerably Lighter than all those folks with colored eyes. Hell Malcolm X would have been a damn Bidane.
And lastly, I don't know if Septimus looks mixed. He could easily pass for a North African Today. And his wife does not look Syrian.
1) He was half Berber Half Roman-Fact.
2) His 2nd Wife the woman in the colored Image was a Syrian-fact.
He looks mixed, have you seen Carcalla??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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For all the negroes or black Moors are descendants of Cush,the son of Ham,who was the son of Noah.But whatever difference there is between the negroes and the twany Moor,it is a fact that they are all of the same ancestry. Leo Africanus.
This off was course written at a later date but would have held true even earlier.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Posts: 138 | Registered: Oct 2011
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The Mutt comment was a joke, no disrespect to Mulattos as My dad is a Mullatto.
Any was I think its safe to say Spetimius was the First "black" Roman Emperor. His son Caracalla was probably lighter skinned but his hair testifies to his African Heritage.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Also you called him a mutt. Wtf is up with that???
[/QB]
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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In my opinion this wouldn't be the very most Africanizing description of Egyptians, in terms of ancient Greco-Roman quotes (classical), at least not in the tropical sense.
So essentially he says that Egyptians were darker than Mauretanians and Mauretanians' darker Libyan (Afrorum) counterparts?
He did though give an intriguing possible hint though.
In writing this he mentions approaching a medium hue, in terms of the great extremes white and black - German to Ethiopian - of mankind.
Mind you this isn't Modern Ethiopia / ancient Abyssinia we're talking about -- mod Ethiopia was named such in recent times, just like "Ghana" isn't the classical Kingdom of Ghana, which was to the North in modern Mauretania, and Benin isn't the Benin Empire, which was located in Nigeria. These would've been Kemet's Southern neighbors, and Egyptians depicted their Southern neighbors quite black - as black as possible. Western (i.e. non-Indian) "Ethiopia" was used for individuals residing outside of Egypt in Sudan, and even for West Africans as when Romans I think travelled by ship there, to West Africa, the natives/inhabitants were simply described again as "Ethiopians" from the Western Sudan to the forested interior. Sudanese are some of the [b]blackest Africans on pigmentation maps (not only is it dry, but combined with it being fully in the tropics zone the sands give a reflective and the arid desert gives a frying pan effect if you check the temperatures to further illustrate my point.
Anyway, they say moderate hue when bringing up Kemetians, and it's interesting, as I've seen other quotes claiming that of Nubians, although these could've been during Medieval times or so. Kemetians do appear a bit darker than this (medium) in much of their art, though, although -- I have seen art where they appear near perfectly medium. Quite near the color of this: .
So this may help us guage the coloring of the groups he mentions. It was said by Greeks that Persians (that would be Iranians) were lighter than they.
Anyway, so with that said perhaps I would place the Afrorum / Libyans as light skinned (from a black perspective) or what would be known as "quadroon mulatto" levels, and their Mauretanians at "octoroon" levels.
Leaving Syrians, then Greeks, straight swarthy.
Followed by the still lighter Romans (Italians), Hispania (Spain), Gallic people (Gauls -- Celts), and then finally Germania (Germanic people).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Keep in mind an Upper near Middle Egypt place like in Luxor has many significantly dark skinned individuals, while many Middler & Lower Egyptian locales have more folks of lighter complexions, but unlike in modern times most Egyptians didn't live in that end, especially the Middle, probably bringing the average and mode towards a darker direction, perfectly between jet & lily in those times.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Here are some people from Egypt's Southern extreme, often termed "Nubian", although this is what many haphazardly (and erroneously) call non-Kemetians to the South, despite the fact that Pharaohnic / Ancient Egypt started from an area in what is now Northern Sudan, and that Nub was a city located in what is now modern Egypt. Ignoring all that, here are some Nubians:
Aside from one of them in the middle of that one pic above, here is the first immediate result I saw to approach what I think they may have been referring to in "Indians", although it was found also in searching for Southern Egyptians (Aswan, Image Search). (I know there likely were others I could likely have just scrolled down, and infact glanced at others in the websites for those images).
* Now at their "Egyptian level":
As well as the guy on the phone in the third pic below (Qena)
So apparently they didn't count the very light skinned as whites, and maybe still considered them blacks or Melanos.
Mauretanians or Moors were like many Northern Mauretanians and Southern Moroccans are today, particularly of a certain persuation.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.
Manilius' order of white complexions from the most light to the least light - Germania - Gallia - Hispania - Romanis - Graecia - Syrium
Manilius' order black complexions from the most dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
Please follow me closely here. This is the quote we are dealing with
The first part of alTakruri interpreation is that Manilius is talking about skin complections, let's see what Manilius actually said:
Below is a translation of the above Manilus quote from Astronomica.
The content is continous like it appears in the original latin.
I will leave it up to you if you want to force it into a "black" and "white" paradigm.
I have bolded and separated with the space bar the relevant potions of the text:
For this reason, various laws in the various figures disposed is a genus of men, the characteristic color of nations are formed, society administers laws, the limbs make an equal mark in private treaties. Germany rises by a huge golden birth, 715
France is less infected by shame,
Spain, has more severe limbs.
Mars is the father of the city of the Romans Venus is pregnant, mixing tempers of her limbs,
Greece is subtle and colored by the 720 nations she prefers strong wrestling with her face to a place of exercise,
and Syrians, they are betrayed by their hair.
Ethiopians stain the world with darkness
The nations of India men are less roasted 725a
726b and the land of the Egyptian Nile is more gently darkened by watered fields these bodies draw near 726a to the moderate the tenor of the middle.
725b The sandy dust of the earth 728 dries up the Phoebus African , and the name Mauritania, his mouth has the very color.
add as many sounds of words, the same number of languages an equal lot of places and manners; add proper genus under the seed of the fruits of a similar harvest, returning through the cities of Ceres various things all being equal Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I haven't at all the quote down by heart, but I just noticed something thanks to the quote being posted again, above, by lioness. That it is after Egypt that "the moderate tenor of the middle" is approached or drawn near to (as they phrase it "these draw near to"). So this doesn't even really say whether it is the Saharans or Mauretanians who finally eclipse this moderate hue. In other words of course Egyptians & Saharans would approach more towards a medium hue than would an Ethiopian.
Previously, I was looking for yellow goldies like the ones you can pretty easily find at pretty Central locations like Qena or Luxor today, such as the young lady in the top right, and keeids in the opposite corner in the collage below, constructed by Wally:
So actually, most of the people I looked at as "too dark" at Luxor would've worked fine -- I'd decided to pass Luxor because although there were a few of the right complexion (in pics, that is) I was trying to be selective of a certain picture type and went further towards Qena in my searches of more with the yellow - golden hues.
Also re: what I said of some of the paintings, this was just looking at some at face value, and not in the decisive majority of pics which seem to be at Jari's Egyptian and Indian levels.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Below is a translation of the above Manilus quote from Astronomica.
Oh why don't you get the Loeb edition since you can't do a real translation yourself, please.
.
2).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: I haven't at all the quote down by heart, but I just noticed something thanks to the quote being posted again, above, by lioness. That it is after Egypt that "the moderate tenor of the middle" is approached or drawn near to (as they phrase it "these draw near to"). So this doesn't even really say whether it is the Saharans or Mauretanians who finally eclipse this moderate hue. In other words of course Egyptians & Saharans would approach more towards a medium hue than would an Ethiopian.
With the words "iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem" Manilius is announcing that after mentioning Aethiopes, Indians, and Egyptians, in his move from the extreme southern Tropical Zone going to the north he now nears the Mediterranean Zone of the middle. The far north Egyptian Delta, "Libya", and Mauretania abutt the southern Mediterranean.
Just as Egypt runs the length of the lower Nile "Libya" runs from the desert to Mediterranean Sea. That's why Afrorum is mentioned after the verse announcing the approach to the southern Mediterranean and is mentioned in notice of the dust of the sandy desert.
Afrorum and Mauri being at the southern Mediterranean they both would be in the zone of moderated colour.
In Greco-Latin texts Indians are noted to have Aethiop colour in the south and Egyptian colour in the north. And so Manilius' ordering India between Aethiops and Egyptians, tropical and subtropical but not Mediterranean.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ Yes and the above makes perfect sense unless one is biased by an agenda to distort the meaning of what is actually stated. Hence, lyinass worms wrigle! Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Here are some people from Egypt's Southern extreme, often termed "Nubian", although this is what many haphazardly (and erroneously) call non-Kemetians to the South, despite the fact that Pharaohnic / Ancient Egypt started from an area in what is now Northern Sudan, and that Nub was a city located in what is now modern Egypt. Ignoring all that, here are some Nubians:
Aside from one of them in the middle of that one pic above, here is the first immediate result I saw to approach what I think they may have been referring to in "Indians", although it was found also in searching for Southern Egyptians (Aswan, Image Search). (I know there likely were others I could likely have just scrolled down, and infact glanced at others in the websites for those images).
* Now at their "Egyptian level":
As well as the guy on the phone in the third pic below (Qena)
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: why don't you get the Loeb edition
you are bluffing. If you had the Goold translation you would have quoted from it. You don't even know what it says
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And you don't even know what you're talking about! As I said, you are a caught in your lie the way a worm is caught on a hook!
Keep wriggling!
more Djhooptie cheerleading his baton twirls high
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Not really, only for the coastal Berbers. The Saharan Berbers et al are still quite dark. There are the Siwi, the Temgroute Berbers, the Tissint, the Berbers of the Saharan town of Ghadames..
Well you should be thrilled to know that the general consensus is that many of the dark berbers are the result of assimilation with blacks as they migrated southward.
The Idea of Bidan had nothing to do with being pale people. Many of the people called Bidan would be Brown, Dark Brown, Reddish Brown etc as opposed to extreemly black.
Oh give me a break. Bidan is a term used by Arabs for non Blacks, whether they are beige or light brown is not the issue. It is a term used for lighter skinned people. Now as with the term Blanco in south america, the term might be extended to include some dark people of high status, but the general rule is these people are non Blacks. Some Bidan Moorish people.
Another
Now whether you call them beige, bronze or paper bag brown, they are not negroes. That is what I'm talking about. Capeesh??
Btw the way the Bidan Moors consder themselves descendants of Sahnhaja Berbers. Lol!
And this proves your racial point how??
Again climate zones, not different than a person living in Texas going to Mexico and not drinking the water because it supposedly makes you sick.
I see you are not very good at breaking down analogies. The reason why water in Mexico..or San Antonio might make us sick is not beause of a difference in climate LMAO! But because of germs. This is something you get used to after a while. Battuta doesn't mention climate but two different types of people, the whites being phsyiologically ill disposed to digest certain African grains.
Oh wait what am I saying? the Arabs didn't notice any different racial types in North Afica. And Bidan simply refers to Blacks whose skin had a healthy glow. Ah but then there's you boy Al jahiz and his book Risalat mufakharat al-sudan 'ala al-bidan (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)..I guess Bidan had some racial meaning to him, huh?
We Also have Ancient discriptions of blacks in North Africa from greco Roman Times. Also the origin of Berber is SSA and the Eastern Deserts with the Berber HG being found as far South as Sudan etc.
Depictions of Blacks from the interior. Only the haplogroup E-m81 is likely SSA. But much of their dna ain't. It takes a combination of things to make a berber.
I believe you are being schooled on this by Explorer on the R1b thread if I recall.
What R having it's origin in Africa? Your Explorer fellow is quite the entertainer.
Majority of the Sahran Berbers and Sahrans are Dark Brown, Brown light brown etc. their African origin is undeniable.
Those represent only about 10% of all Berbers. Why focus on them?
There is a clear difference, gentically, Physically, Linguistically, and Culturally than a Light brown Sahran Berber and a Southern European, the former being closer to a black Skinned Chadian or Beja than to a Southern European in all the above mentioned.
Yeah cause a Saharan Berber is likely already mixed Chadians or Malians.
As I said before your opinion is moot. I can care less what you think.
My opinions are informed by facts and logic, your opinions are influenced by afrocentric tomfoolery and tales of the mothership connection. Dana Marniche and others are doing you a serious diservice, son.
Lybia is not Atheiopia and the people depicted by Egyptian came from Coastal North Africa not Athiopia. As before there is no detailed description of the Leuko Ethiopians, and Luekoethiopians would translate as " whites blacks" or "White Negros" LMAO
Or White Africans. and I do believe that the Luekaethiopians were reported being in Libya.
So then the Gramantes were associated with Athiopies, I.E blacks. Case closed, not need to insert personal opinions but then again, this is what you seem to be good at.
But they were also contrasted with Blacks. so take your pick..I oh nevermind.
Again you can't prove that the quote involved "Light Skinned" Indians can you. All you can do is cherry pick. I can however compare Reddish brown Egyptians(the Color which Egyptians Caracatured themselves as having) with Northern Indians of the same Color. It not Irrelevent when many Northern Indians are Reddish Brown and Dark Brown as compared to pitch Black Dravidians and the Egyptians applied the Same Reddish Brown v. Pitch black contrast themselves.
Cherry pick nothing! Northern Indians are KNOWN for being light some even having light eyes. And most southern dravdians are not pitch black but medium to dark redish brown. Don't let it upset you.
Just remember the truth will set you free!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And you don't even know what you're talking about! As I said, you are a caught in your lie the way a worm is caught on a hook!
Keep wriggling!
more Djhooptie cheerleading his baton twirls high
DJ and his cumpŕ have made a major contribution with their reasoned translation of lines 4.722-730 which is not merely an unintelligible string of words in the English tongue but is a meaningful and original translation that makes sense in English that is very helpful. Especially for the strength of 726a|725b as a sentence of it's own by translating iam instead of Goold's use of 726a|725b as a run on appendage to 726b|727 and his total neglect of iam.
quote: Ethiopians stain the circle (globe) with their darkest figures. Immersed with races of men less burnt India has produced. The earth inundated by the Egyptian Nile, are more gently darkened bodies of the watered field.
We now draw near the moderate tenor (climate or condition) of the middle.
Bright (sunny) African and sandy dust of the earth drieth up the people, and the name of Mauritania, a label his mouth bears has the very color.
The only real error I find is their shortening of the Ethiopian sentence which actually includes the ending phrase "immersed with races of men" which in mistake they prefix to the very concise sentence on India.
Meanwhile the Lioness has contributed nothing but a coverup.
This is the translation I made back on Nov 10, 2010
quote:Ethiopia stains the world painting humankind deeply dark Less does India's sun toast its progeny Egypt-land's Nile leniently irrigates bodies dark a country nearer us, with moderate climate imparting medium tone Sol dries peoples of Africa's dusty desert land] While Mauretania's name proclaims colour in skin and face.
Unfortunately I lost the translation notes when my old laptop died. My translation is a work in progress. The above is not the finished product. Below, some recent rough and unfinished updates
quote: Ethiopians stain the orb deeply dark drenching humanity's forms. India's progeny is less scorched. Egypt's Nile inundates the earth, darkens bodies gradual, like the irrigated field.
Now nearer the middle which produces a tone observing moderation.
Sol dries the African peoples' dusty desert land While Mauretania's own mouth has labeled it's appellation by the color they bear.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ Indeed, which is why unlike the lyinass worm. I don't wriggle. By the way, my suggestion that the immersed part references India is because India was said to be the most populous region at the time.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7:
Now whether you call them beige, bronze or paper bag brown, they are not negroes. That is what I'm talking about. Capeesh??
LOL There is no such thing as "negroes" at least scientifically no more than "caucasians". Though the people above represent a mixture of African and fair-skinned Eurasian and would be traditionally known as "mulatto" in the West.
The African American woman above would fit right in among your selection of Berber people.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Well you should be thrilled to know that the general consensus is that many of the dark berbers are the result of assimilation with blacks as they migrated southward.
I can care less about a "General Consensus" says. The fact remains that the Berbers decend from an African people and the Saharan Berbers have been identified with blacks(Athiopies) back to Early Dynastic Egypt and Greco Roman times. Numerous studies and evidence backs this up. Sorry.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Oh give me a break. Bidan is a term used by Arabs for non Blacks, whether they are beige or light brown is not the issue. It is a term used for lighter skinned people. Now as with the term Blanco in south america, the term might be extended to include some dark people of high status, but the general rule is these people are non Blacks. Some Bidan Moorish people.
No I wont give you a break because in your attepts to Copy N Paste an Anti Afrocentric site you tried to paint the Bidans off as "Pale Skin" your words. Even in your cherry picked selection its obvious the Bidanes are anything but pale, and trust me they get Darker.
Even in your images the so called "Bidanes" are quite dark far from pale, and if this is you claiming some of the sanhaja looked..LMAO it does'nt help your case at all.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I see you are not very good at breaking down analogies. The reason why water in Mexico..or San Antonio might make us sick is not beause of a difference in climate LMAO! But because of germs. This is something you get used to after a while. Battuta doesn't mention climate but two different types of people, the whites being phsyiologically ill disposed to digest certain African grains
Nothing wrong with my ability to break down analogies, its your problem in understanding the context in which Ibn Bhattuta is basing his opinions on. It had nothing to with a Berber not eating food of a SSA and everything to do with a Coastal Mehgrebi not eating the same food as a SSA.
When you think of it its quite the common sense conclusion that Ibn Bhattuta opinions were largely based on Geography and not skin color.
But you have an agenda so I understand your desperation to defend such a dumb assertion.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Depictions of Blacks from the interior. Only the haplogroup E-m81 is likely SSA. But much of their dna ain't. It takes a combination of things to make a berber.
Tunis is not the interior, Carthage is not the Interior. The Sahrah is not the Interior. Leptis Magna where Septimius comes from is not the interior, the Oaisis of Kharga, Siwa, etc that the Egyptian Lybian Dynasties came from are not the interior.
LOL, Berber is a language group that originated in the Eastern Desert of Africa, and the Afrasian language as well as M81. The Berbers of the Megreb are heavily mixed with Europeans, and Europe had nothing to do with the origin of the Berbers.
Those represent only about 10% of all Berbers. Why focus on them?
What a stupid question. The Sahran Berbers by all accounts remain relatively unchanged from thousands of years ago. If anything they mixed with Arabs and European slaves.
The Sarahan Berbers probably represent what the original Berbers looked like.
Yeah cause a Saharan Berber is likely already mixed Chadians or Malians.
Yes, just as your Megrebi Berbers are mixed with Iberians, Germanics and Romans..etc.
My opinions are informed by facts and logic, your opinions are influenced by afrocentric tomfoolery and tales of the mothership connection. Dana Marniche and others are doing you a serious diservice, son.
More chest beating roo-raa as if this makes any sort of difference. Your opinion is not based off facts as been shown clountless times. Everything you have tried has been exposed.
Or White Africans. and I do believe that the Luekaethiopians were reported being in Libya.
First off Athiopia is not Lybia, second if the Leuko Ethiopians were singled out as "White Africans" as Whites esp in Lybia how does this square with your idea that Lybians, Mauritanians etc were white/Leuko "Middle Eastern looking folks.
That hurts your case, as I said the LeukoEthiopies don't help you at all, esp that no discription was given of them. But I understand desperate times call for desperate measures.
But they were also contrasted with Blacks. so take your pick..I oh nevermind. Yes, oh Never mind is right, the Garamantes were identified with blacks and in most descriptions dark skinned, just as there are Light and Dark Taureg of today.
Oh Nevermind is right.
Cherry pick nothing! Northern Indians are KNOWN for being light some even having light eyes. And most southern dravdians are not pitch black but medium to dark reddish brown. Don't let it upset you.
Dude Indians are known for being Brown skinned. There are plenty of Brown Skinned Northern Indians on par with the Egyptian reddish brown that makes the same contrast with black Dravidians just as the Egyptians did.
And lets be clear the "Northern Indian" quote does nothing to dismiss the Black origin of Egypt and the black Phraroahs who ruled going back to the first dynasties. Many black Upper Egyptians match perfectly with how the Egyptians depicted themselves. and the Nubians are the closest people in all reguards to the Egyptians.
In other words your quote is just a smokescreen.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
LMAO, @ this fraud trying to make the Sanhadja out to be white or cherry picking the lighest Bidane moors to continue some idea that the Sanhadja were "Pale"..once again here are the modern Mauritanians who maintain some of the Sanhadja Manuscripts going back to the days of Andalucia..
More Moors from Mauritanian and the Western Sahrah
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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“Historians said that Andalusi script had long ago disappeared, but the more I looked at Mauritanian scripts, the more they looked like Andalusi. [b\If you compare an Andalusi manuscript from the 12th century and a Mauritanian manuscript from the 19th century, they are so close in style that they could be by the same calligrapher.”[/b]Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Now whether you call them beige, bronze or paper bag brown, they are not negroes. That is what I'm talking about. Capeesh??
Btw the way the Bidan Moors consder themselves descendants of Sahnhaja Berbers. Lol!
It should made clear that I never said anything about "Negros"
Here is what I have said countless times..
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ I agree the Moors and Berbers don't have to be "Pitch Black" I think they would be Dark to Light Brown skin.
which was a response to this..
quote:Originally posted by Garrig the Silly Clown: And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?
For someone who loves to chest bump and claim his assertions are based on fact its funny how this person resorts to fallacy, in this case strawman fallacy arguments so much.
Sahran people once again..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ Indeed, his whole argument is nothing more than a strawman fallacy, specifically the fallacy of "true negro". You know that is what he means by 'black' right! By that case, over a third of peoples in Sub-Sahara would not fit that category either, which is why he assumes those that don't are 'Eurasian admixed'. Typical desperate Euronut troll trying to undermine indigenous African diversity.
He claims that Capsian culture represents proto-Berber culture, but he never answered the question as to what these Capsians lookedlike!!
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
There is no such thing as "negroes" at least scientifically no more than "caucasians". Though the people above represent a mixture of African and fair-skinned Eurasian and would be traditionally known as "mulatto" in the West.
They don't look like mulattos, you liar. And that so called African American woman looks more Caucasian than anything else. The silly one drop rule has distorted everything. Many AAs are only partialy African.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
No I wont give you a break because in your attepts to Copy N Paste an Anti Afrocentric site you tried to paint the Bidans off as "Pale Skin" your words. Even in your cherry picked selection its obvious the Bidanes are anything but pale, and trust me they get Darker.
More So called Bidan people
Their skin color contrast sharply with most Sub Sharan Sahran Blacks. Also you can still see their Eusaisn fetaures which they claim from the Sanhaja.
Nothing wrong with my ability to break down analogies, its your problem in understanding the context in which Ibn Bhattuta is basing his opinions on. It had nothing to with a Berber not eating food of a SSA and everything to do with a Coastal Mehgrebi not eating the same food as a SSA. Lolz! You also suck at logic.
Also I'm tired of repeating the same damn things over and over. You have posted what you claim to believe and I have have written at length to explain why I believe you are wrong. Let the objective minded look at our posts and decide for themselves. I have said all that I needed to say about this.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: They don't look like mulattos, you liar. And that so called African American woman looks more Caucasian than anything else. The silly one drop rule has distorted everything. Many AAs are only partialy African.
LMAO
The only one lying is YOU as usual! The Berbers in your pics are obviously of mixed black African and light-skinned Eurasian ancestry. Again they look no different from the African American woman and this is the reason why such Berbers living in Europe are sometimes subjected to racist attacks and insults as "mongrels" or plain "n*ggers" especially during soccer games. As for the African American woman, she is 'biracial' so your opinion about her looking 'caucasian' (which again doesn't exist) only verifies my point you idiot!
By the way, you ignored my last post. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Their skin color contrast sharply with most Sub Sharan Sahran Blacks. Also you can still see their Eusaisn fetaures which they claim from the Sanhaja.
Their skin color is for the most part is dark not "Pale". as you tried to imply when you brought up "Bidane". I will continue to slap your clown ass down the more you try to squirm away from this with more proof.
More Sahrans, Decendants of the Sanhadja..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Also I'm tired of repeating the same damn things over and over. You have posted what you claim to believe and I have have written at length to explain why I believe you are wrong. Let the objective minded look at our posts and decide for themselves. I have said all that I needed to say about this.
The only objective minded person here is me. You are deluded if you think Ibn Bhattua's remark about getting sick if earing Sudani food had anything to do with skin color, esp given the fact that the word in arabic was Bidane and had nothing to do with the modern notion of being "White"
Only a fool will deny that Ibn Bhattuta was referencing the difference in Geographical location just as an American visiting Mexico who fears getting sick from the water there is basing his assertions off Geography and Location.
You can repeat yourself until your ass bleeds it still wont change the facts kid.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^ Indeed. The same twisted game of attributing Berber ancestry to Eurasians while black features to foreign slaves. Does this guy not realize how nutty he sounds. The Berber language and culture as indigenous to Africa meant that the people who created it were also indigenous and thus BLACK. Any Eurasian features are the ones that are foreign and likely of slave ancestry!
"Also you can still see their Eusaisn fetaures which they claim from the Sanhaja." LMAO Where is Dana when you need her??
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Sanhaja or Senhaja (also Znaga or Sanhadja; Arabic: صنهاجة Ṣanhājah, Berber: Iẓnagen) were once one of the largest Berber tribal confederations of the Maghreb, along with the Zanata and Masmuda.[1] Many tribes and regions in the Berber world bore and still bear this name, especially in its Berber form.
The meaning of the Berber word Iẓnagen is the oasis people. Its singular form is Aẓnag, which is frequently used today as a family name by many North Africans. In Berber, the word for "oasis" is Aẓnig or Amda.
The tribes of the Senhaja settled at first in the northern Sahara. After the arrival of Islam they also spread out in the Sudan as far as the Senegal River and the Niger. From the 9th century Zenaga tribes began to establish themselves in the Middle Atlas range, in the Rif Mountains and on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A part of the Sanhaja settled in eastern Algeria (the Kutama), and played an important part in the rise of the Fatimids. The Zenaga dynasties of the Zirids and Hammadids controlled Ifriqiya until the 12th century.
In the mid-11th century, a group of Senhaja chieftains, returning from the Hajj invited the missionary and Lamtuna theologian Ibn Yasin to preach among their tribes. Ibn Yasin then managed to unite the tribes in the alliance of the Almoravids in the middle of the 11th century. This confederacy subsequently established Morocco, conquered western Algeria, and Andalusia in Spain.[2]
With the invasion of the Maghreb by the Arab Banu Hilal tribe in the 11th century and the Maqil in the 12th, the Zenaga were gradually Arabized. They were subjected to domination by Arab warrior castes in the 17th-century Char Bouba war.[1] In today's Mauritania and Western Sahara, the Zenaga tribes are at the bottom of Sahrawi-Moorish society. They perform demeaning duties for their Hassane (warrior) and Zawiya (religious) overlords, and were traditionally exploited through payment of the horma tax in exchange for protection, as they could not bear arms. Today only some 200 still speak the Zenaga language.
Sanhaja Berber nomads are believed to have started migrating into the area of modern-day Western Sahara around 1,000 BC. After the arrival of the camel from the east in AD 50, the Sanhaja periodically controlled the lucrative trans-Saharan trade routes. But from the seventh century they began to experience fierce competition from Zenata Berbers to the north, who eventually took over the trade routes. In the eleventh century, the Sanhaja rose to dominance again with the emergence of the Almoravids, followers of a fervent Islamic movement who conquered vast swathes of west and north Africa and ruled for a century in southern Spain.
The direct descendents of present-day Saharawis represent a fusion between the Sanhaja Berbers and Arab tribes originating from Yemen. Invasions by the Beni Hassan in the fifteenth century led to the gradual domination and Arabization of the Sanhaja. This gave rise to a new ethnic group called the Beidan or Moors, whose language evolved into Hassaniya. The area they occupied was known as Trab Ab-beidan (the land of the whites), its limits defined mainly by natural barriers such as the Atlantic coast to the west; Ouad or Wad Noun in the north; the Senegal River to the south; and the hostile, barren desert to the east.
Those nomadic pastoral tribes roamed mainly along Western Sahara’s coastal area and developed different political structures from those that largely occupied modern-day Mauritania. They did not form emirates as in Mauritania and, when not fighting amongst themselves, regulated their affairs and relations by inter-tribal assemblies like the djemaa or ait arbain (the council of forty). These would meet to organize collective defense and raids, resolve civil disputes, and punish crimes. Primary loyalties were to family, faction, and tribe. The Saharawis never constituted a nation as such in pre-colonial times ( Hodges 1983 ).
The only problem is that Hassaniya Arabs from Yemen were still quite dark and thus Arabization fails to explain the light complexion among many modern Sanhaja. However, if one remembers that Arabs during Medieval times imported European slaves, particularly women, it makes more sense.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: They don't look like mulattos, you liar. And that so called African American woman looks more Caucasian than anything else. The silly one drop rule has distorted everything. Many AAs are only partialy African.
LMAO
The only one lying is YOU as usual! The Berbers in your pics are obviously of mixed black African and light-skinned Eurasian ancestry. Again they look no different from the African American woman and this is the reason why such Berbers living in Europe are sometimes subjected to racist attacks and insults as "mongrels" or plain "n*ggers" especially during soccer games. As for the African American woman, she is 'biracial' so your opinion about her looking 'caucasian' (which again doesn't exist) only verifies my point you idiot!
By the way, you ignored my last post.
First off your comment about the racist slurs at soccer games applies mostly to Blacks, not North Africans.
The term biracial can be misleading since it seems to imply some type of racial balance when in fact a person may be more of one race than the other. Lena Horne for instance was more Caucasian than she was Black at least in features. The same is true of your African American woman.
Was your questions about the Capsians? Well since they were mixed with Iberians and Near Easterners, they probably looked like Qadaffi. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
The only objective minded person here is me. You are deluded if you think Ibn Bhattua's remark about getting sick if earing Sudani food had anything to do with skin color, esp given the fact that the word in arabic was Bidane and had nothing to do with the modern notion of being "White"
I already said it is not equvalent to the modern notion of white and most North Africans today are not considered White, are they? But just the same, their features are Eurasian and people consider them Middle Easterners not Blacks. And you are using pictures of people who might be considered Black in the US because of the stupid one drop rule, while it's quite obvious to me that these people are still relatively light comapred to Sub Saharans..aka the Real Negroes. Lol! an look more Eurasian than anything else.
Only a fool will deny that Ibn Bhattuta was referencing the difference in Geographical location just as an American visiting Mexico who fears getting sick from the water there is basing his assertions off Geography and Location.
You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation.. in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool. And there is no reason to call people White and Black if they all look the same. What a desperate and silly claim. Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
You can repeat yourself until your ass bleeds it still wont change the facts kid.
I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance, as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
You have yourself a nice weekend. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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In contrast to France’s team, Italy fielded an all-white squad. Marco Materazzi, the Italian player headbutted by Zidane, also plays for the Italian pro team Lazio. Lazio’s hardcore fan club, "the Ultras," is infamous for its fascist politics and overtly racist behavior. "The Ultras" recruit people to ultra-right political groups in Italy. They have displayed racist banners at matches calling opposing players "n*****s" and frequently make racist chants and monkey sounds at opposing players of African descent.
The racist behavior of "the Ultras" is not isolated. Racism has become and increasing problem in European pro soccer, where banana peels and nuts are often thrown at players of African descent across Europe’s pro leagues.
^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nčgre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
Ironically it was the French who described the Moorish ancestors of these North African immigrants as more pristine black, as noted in the Song of Roland.
quote:The term biracial can be misleading since it seems to imply some type of racial balance when in fact a person may be more of one race than the other. Lena Horne for instance was more Caucasian than she was Black at least in features. The same is true of your African American woman.
Scientifically there is no such thing as 'race' which your comments deceitfully prove. The point is these people are of mixed black origin which is what your select Berbers represent a mixture of indigenous (black) with more recent Eurasian ancestry.
quote:Was your questions about the Capsians? Well since they were mixed with Iberians and Near Easterners, they probably looked like Qadaffi.
LMAO So you finally give me an answer although it is WRONG as usual!
The appearance of the Capsians was discussed here and here. The same links I posted elsewhere.
And trust me, they did NOT look like Muammar Qadaffi! LOLPosts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I already said it is not equvalent to the modern notion of white and most North Africans today are not considered White, are they?
Oh Please, you are only saying this now in the future you will be proclaiming the Berbers and Ibn Bhutatta as being closer to Europeans etc. when it suits you.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: But just the same, their features are Eurasian and people consider them Middle Easterners not Blacks. And you are using pictures of people who might be considered Black in the US because of the stupid one drop rule
What does the one drop rule have to do with anything and Eurasian features for that matter. You realize the Sahrah desert is a Dry Climate and that Africans have been inhabiting the Sahrah as far back as the Wet Saharah phase and Earlier. The Features of said people are an adaption to the Climate of the Sahrah with minute influences from Arabs and SSAs.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: while it's quite obvious to me that these people are still relatively light comapred to Sub Saharans..aka the Real Negroes. Lol! an look more Eurasian than anything else.
No what is obvious is that beneath the chest beating and pseudo-intellectual facade you are nothing but a pseudo scholar who relies on outdated 20th century defunct and obsolete terms such as "Negro" "True Negros" and Caucasians. In your small feeble mind you are actually backed up by facts..lol.
Once Again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Awe, the poor lyinass baby just can't get over the FACT that the Egyptians were grouped closer to Ethiopians than to Syrians or Greeks. Whine all you want you lying worm, but you can't wriggle your way out of this one! You obviously regret bringing up Manilius's quote now, don't ya? 
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might make us sick is not beause of a difference in climate LMAO! But because of germs. This is something you get used to after a while. Battuta doesn't mention climate but two different types of people, the whites being phsyiologically ill disposed to digest certain African grains.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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