posted
(Cont. because this peice of sh#t won't let me post my full reply.)
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Clearly despite your desperate attempts to dismiss and squirm your way out of this beat down you are getting the Sanhadja were seen as black, brown and dark skinned Africans no Eurasians or Whites etc despite them being lighter than the Average SSA.
All you really have is Semantics at this point, after you realized that even the Bidane Moors of Mauretania are for the most part not Pale as you tried to imply earlier.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation..
Dummy what does "Drinking the Water in Mexico" have to do with Hygene and food preparation. Are you willfully ingnorant or as dense as you act.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool.
It has everything to do with Geography and location, you fool. The fact of the matter is people only have this view with Mexico, a Location not with Mexicans a people.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
The Land of Blacks was the area where the darkest people on Earth according to Muslims lived. Once again being black and white then was different than today, and black people had lived in the Megreb, Arabia and North Africa from the dawn of history. A good example of white and black in the Muslim sense..
This man was seen as white/Bidane/Arab by the Arab Muslims..
The thing as demonstrated over and over again is that being Bidan has nothing to do with race as mixed people and people with Dark to Medium brown skin and features(Hair, Culture, Facial) similar to so called Sudanis would be Bidan like
Anwar.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance
You have me confused, what I am saying is that when Ibn Bhattuta uses white or Bidan he is including people who could be Dark Brown to Beige etc. in color a wide range of people while blacks were the darkest people on Earth.
Many of the Sahran people are Dark Brown to black skinned going back to the Garamantes.
Your attempts to apply a modern notion of race is obvious distortion of the Muslim texts.
as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
Sure it it Negrophobe, the Climate Zones were a vital part of their understanding, which is why Al Jahiz wrote a freaking Kitab called, "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan" and his primary focus is against people who supposedly lived in a temperate climate zone. The idea was that people who did not live in the "Temperate" climate Zone were inferior, Blacks were burned by the Sun and Nordics were Pale and too cold. This is attested to by Ibn Khaludun. Who wrote against this notion.
This just goes to show your ignorance on such matters and desperation to eurasianize the Berbers. Geography played a role in their understanding wether you like it or not.
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posted
^ Indeed. The malcontent isn't fooling anyone by his pathetic attempt to white-wash Saharan Berbers a.k.a. Moors!!
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: while it's quite obvious to me that these people are still relatively light comapred to Sub Saharans..aka the Real Negroes. Lol! an look more Eurasian than anything else.
No what is obvious is that beneath the chest beating and pseudo-intellectual facade you are nothing but a pseudo scholar who relies on outdated 20th century defunct and obsolete terms such as "Negro" "True Negros" and Caucasians. In your small feeble mind you are actually backed up by facts..lol.
Of course. The idiot can do nothing but rely on outdated and debunked phrases. Note how he writes of "true negroes" as if there are fake ones, meanwhile why is there no reference to true caucasians??
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The Melanophobe Liar7 lives in denial. The North Africans are not well recieved in Holland either, I heard they are at times compared to monkeys etc.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: First off your comment about the racist slurs at soccer games applies mostly to Blacks, not North Africans.
In contrast to France’s team, Italy fielded an all-white squad. Marco Materazzi, the Italian player headbutted by Zidane, also plays for the Italian pro team Lazio. Lazio’s hardcore fan club, "the Ultras," is infamous for its fascist politics and overtly racist behavior. "The Ultras" recruit people to ultra-right political groups in Italy. They have displayed racist banners at matches calling opposing players "n*****s" and frequently make racist chants and monkey sounds at opposing players of African descent.
The racist behavior of "the Ultras" is not isolated. Racism has become and increasing problem in European pro soccer, where banana peels and nuts are often thrown at players of African descent across Europe’s pro leagues.
^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nčgre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
Ironically it was the French who described the Moorish ancestors of these North African immigrants as more pristine black, as noted in the Song of Roland.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Melanophobe Liar7 lives in denial. The North Africans are not well recieved in Holland either, I heard they are at times compared to monkeys etc.
Yes, and for obvious reasons. It's the same as the rednecks here in America say is the difference between n*gger and n*gger light or "yellow n*gger". In fact the French word 'macaca' is derived from the same root as macaque as in monkey! Whatever so-called 'caucasian' ancestry exists among the North African immigrants, the Euros hardly view them as 'brothers'.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^^^ Yes, I was at a party with some country white people, trust me "Sand N-gger" is a common phrase among these people. Its sad really, I mean these people don't like Mexicans much let alone Muslim Arabs.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Yes, I was at a party with some country white people, trust me "Sand N-gger" is a common phrase among these people. Its sad really, I mean these people don't like Mexicans much let alone Muslim Arabs.
search jari comments on Islam/Arabs
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posted
^ And, your point is?? We are discussing North Africans and their Moorish ancestors.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nčgre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Afircans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told themn in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: (Cont. because this peice of sh#t won't let me post my full reply.)
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Clearly despite your desperate attempts to dismiss and squirm your way out of this beat down you are getting the Sanhadja were seen as black, brown and dark skinned Africans no Eurasians or Whites etc despite them being lighter than the Average SSA.
All you really have is Semantics at this point, after you realized that even the Bidane Moors of Mauretania are for the most part not Pale as you tried to imply earlier.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation..
Dummy what does "Drinking the Water in Mexico" have to do with Hygene and food preparation. Are you willfully ingnorant or as dense as you act.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool.
It has everything to do with Geography and location, you fool. The fact of the matter is people only have this view with Mexico, a Location not with Mexicans a people.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
The Land of Blacks was the area where the darkest people on Earth according to Muslims lived. Once again being black and white then was different than today, and black people had lived in the Megreb, Arabia and North Africa from the dawn of history. A good example of white and black in the Muslim sense..
This man was seen as white/Bidane/Arab by the Arab Muslims..
The thing as demonstrated over and over again is that being Bidan has nothing to do with race as mixed people and people with Dark to Medium brown skin and features(Hair, Culture, Facial) similar to so called Sudanis would be Bidan like
Anwar.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance
You have me confused, what I am saying is that when Ibn Bhattuta uses white or Bidan he is including people who could be Dark Brown to Beige etc. in color a wide range of people while blacks were the darkest people on Earth.
Many of the Sahran people are Dark Brown to black skinned going back to the Garamantes.
Your attempts to apply a modern notion of race is obvious distortion of the Muslim texts.
as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
Sure it it Negrophobe, the Climate Zones were a vital part of their understanding, which is why Al Jahiz wrote a freaking Kitab called, "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan" and his primary focus is against people who supposedly lived in a temperate climate zone. The idea was that people who did not live in the "Temperate" climate Zone were inferior, Blacks were burned by the Sun and Nordics were Pale and too cold. This is attested to by Ibn Khaludun. Who wrote against this notion.
This just goes to show your ignorance on such matters and desperation to eurasianize the Berbers. Geography played a role in their understanding wether you like it or not.
You idiot the sanhaja were a confederation of various berber tribes some who migrated North Some in the Sub Sahara prbably were Black but most likely looked the average North African Today middle eastern which many would describe as brown. Batutta himself was one of them.
And the problem with consuming things in Mexico is the Mexicans, you dolt, not the geography. The water there as well as the food, is dirty because the people don't have the same standard that we do. I shouldn't have to elaborate on this. And it's not just the water. Lol.
Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Here is the famous musician Malouma. As you can see she is caucasian, descendant of the Sanhaja according to their tradition.
And you will note that batutta refered to the Land of the Blacks emphasis on phenotype, not land of the heat or land of the aridness. Understand? Batutta viewed people south of the Sahara as being different from himself, along racial lines. We can witness this same difference today when we travel across the Sahara. Nuff said. Now shuffle off and stop wasting my time, kay?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You idiot the sanhaja were a confederation of various berber tribes some who migrated North Some in the Sub Sahara prbably were Black but most likely looked the average North African Today middle eastern which many would describe as brown. Batutta himself was one of them.
Once again the Sanhaja were a confederation of Dark Brown to Brown Berbers, mainly Sahran Berbers no different than many Sahran Berbers today. None of the Berbers are "Pale" in any sense of the word and are more related to various SSA people. Nor do they look like Middle Easterners except a minority who intermarried with Arabs.
As proof of your forked tongue squirming compare this direct quote from you made..
quote:Originally posted by Garrig And with the quotes from Arab scholars about so many White Berbers aand a demarcation in Africa separating a land of the blacks from the land of the Whites which corresponds more or less to current present racial boundaries, what is there really that an honest person can argue against?[/qb]
S [/QB][/QUOTE]
One second the Sanhadja are white berbers the next they are brown berbers, you are an idiot, and it was not a "Few Sub Sahran" tribes of the San Hadja described and Equated with blacks it was the majority...
Once again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan 11th century
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
-11th Century
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
^^^^ Modern Bidane of the sahrah, Brown of Color with wholly hair..
Yeah looks live the everyday Iranian and Israeli..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Further the Saharan Berber Tauregs whose ancestors were the Garamantes were a dark skinned people...
Interstingly they are described as resembling the people of Triakontaschoinos in Northern Sudan. So we have proof of Dark skinned Sahran berbers going way back.
The only evidence that majority of the Sahran Sanhaja were Middle Eastern is from your ass.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Another Rant bloated out of your smelly arse...
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
As I said Earlier the Bidanes and Haratin have been admixing for years, Bidane have black Heratin blood and vice versa.
Once again..
Some "White Moors"
You can post as many images as you like majotity of the Bidanes of Mauritania look noting like Coastal Berbers who are heavily admixed with various Europeans.
The idea of colorism was not prevelant in Islam, of couse some body who is pitch black is going be singled out as such, however the Term Bidane has no fixed Image, Hell I could go back in those times can claim I am "Bidane" because Im light complexted when compared to the pitch black people in the area..lol.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Africans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told them in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
Of course North Africans are 'Arab' ethnically in that they are Arabized. Many do have Arab ancestry, but you cannot deny the black ancestry in them. Unlike you I never generalized and said "most" French were racist, but that racism exists among French as it does in other European countries is a FACT. The point of my source is that North Africans face racial discrimination regardless of their complexion. I know how Zidane looks like and he looks no different from Mediterranean Europeans (who themselves are mixed anyway), that does not change the black ancestry. Even though French don't follow the same exact racial categories people in the states do, they know that North Africans are mixed, why you don't is a wonder. By the way if you're part French, do you know of the 'Song of Roland'?? I'm sure you can read a modern French transliteration, then.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: And you will note that batutta refered to the Land of the Blacks emphasis on phenotype, not land of the heat or land of the aridness. Understand? Batutta viewed people south of the Sahara as being different from himself, along racial lines. We can witness this same difference today when we travel across the Sahara. Nuff said. Now shuffle off and stop wasting my time, kay?
Another Strawman fallacy. Once again I already said the people of Sudan were extreemly dark skinned, this is no different than the Greek "Athiopies" where the blackest people on Earth lived.
The Truth is Bidane has no fixed image or meaning someone such Anwar Sedat or resembling him can claim they are Bidane til their ass bleeds but in the end when push comes to shove majority of people around the world will see him as a Black African, as was the case with the Garamantes and Moors with the Greeks and Ibn Butlan, Nasir-i Khusrau etc with the Sanhadja. What you want is to use Ibn Bhattuta to push some Modern "Negro/Caucasian" B.S propagnda which is what you are desperatly trying to do. but it wont work bub.
Other than that the Bilad es Sudan did have connotations to enviroment which is why in the very evidence you quoted it is claimed that if a Person moves to the Sudan from the MEgreb they will take on a Sudani appearace and vice versa.
Why do you think in Kitab "Boasts of the Sudan to Bidan" so many tribes and people who don't live in Sudan are called out for being dark.
You are a waste of my time.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Africans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told them in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
Of course North Africans are 'Arab' ethnically in that they are Arabized. Many do have Arab ancestry, but you cannot deny the black ancestry in them. Unlike you I never generalized and said "most" French were racist, but that racism exists among French as it does in other European countries is a FACT. The point of my source is that North Africans face racial discrimination regardless of their complexion. I know how Zidane looks like and he looks no different from Mediterranean Europeans (who themselves are mixed anyway), that does not change the black ancestry. Even though French don't follow the same exact racial categories people in the states do, they know that North Africans are mixed, why you don't is a wonder. By the way if you're part French, do you know of the 'Song of Roland'?? I'm sure you can read a modern French transliteration, then.
I don't even know if the French know that North Africans are mixed with Black. I have never heard it mentioned. They are not obessed with who has Black in them etc. Many famous French folks have North African ancestry Like Isabel Adjani Edith Piaf etc. Do you think anybody cares?? Yeah I know about the the Song of Roland, it's a work of fiction
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One second the Sanhadja are white berbers the next they are brown berbers, you are an idiot, and it was not a "Few Sub Sahran" tribes of the San Hadja described and Equated with blacks it was the majority
You don't give up do you? If you notice it is Batutta who uses the term White, which I equate with Midlle Eastern.
The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
In the 12 century the Sanhaja prohibeted marriage with Blacks.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:You don't give up do you? If you notice it is Batutta who uses the term White, which I equate with Midlle Eastern.
The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
So Im sure you will be able to give us the original word in Arabic where Bhutatta says "White Skinned Berbers" will you. As I said Bidane has nothing to do with being middle Eastern and no fixed image.
BTW, why should I give up when I have evidence and history on my side. I believe the person spinning and struggling here is you..LMAO.
In the 12 century the Sanhaja prohibeted marriage with Blacks.
Another rant spouted out of your ass with no evidence. Im not even going to dignify this response. Any person who level headed and unbiased will know that the Sanhadja did in fact intermarry with blacks as did the Bidanes in Mauritania etc. As a matter of fact Islam forbids laws against intermarriage.
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posted
I retract the above statment it seems some of the Sanhadja did prohibit marriage with Sudanis but it had nothing to do with race of course as it pertained to the fact that the Sanhaja were rivals of the Sudanis like the Ghana empire. Prior to that Berbers in Migrebi openly married Sudanis/Sonnoke wives..
Further this helps prove that the Sanhadja both those of the Western Saharah and of the Central Saharah(Tauregs) were Dark brown to black skinned people with out much intermarriage from blacks by being "Pushed South" and the liar above will envoke when black berbers are bought up in other threads..
Once again...
Once again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan 11th century
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
-11th Century
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
^^^^ Modern Bidane of the sahrah, Brown of Color with wholly hair..
Its pretty consistant, if the Sanhadja prohibited intermarriage with Sudanis this is more devestating to the liars case than ever. Im sure he is currently googling "White Sanhaja Berbers" in a frantic attempt to save face and white wash the sanhaja...LMAO.
BTW, the Mother of the Almoravid Sultan Mulay Ahmed Al-Mansur was a Fulani, so much for not intermarrying Sudanis..LOL.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: ^ Note they said people of *African* descent NOT "Sub-Saharan" or black skin! Many French racists would call North Africans 'macaca', the same epithet they used against blacks in their former sub-Saharan colonies. They also use the term 'bâtard' meaning mongrel or mulâtre (mulatto) for many North Africans. Of course they even use the word 'nčgre' (n*gger), no doubt expressing their own "one drop rule". You see unlike you, the French do not deny the obvious FACT that most North African immigrants are of mixed indigenous (black) and Arab or other ancestry!
You fool. I am part French and have lived in france. They call North Afircans Arabs and now the more popular term "Beur". And they don't have any one drop rule. They thought it was strange when I'm told themn in the States I was considered Black, when I'm barely darker than most of them. Also most French are not racist either! Your source is talking about racist Italians. Learn to read. The North African/French Zidane is considered a superstar in France.
you are right Garrig the most racist i found up there in France are u near white and even yellowish moroccans. Kabyles in France like yourself are just Francophiles or wannabe white French !
In fact that is why we are having this discussion now isn't it. And why you are so tediously trying to make the French or Europeans into paleolithic North Africans.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: One second the Sanhadja are white berbers the next they are brown berbers, you are an idiot, and it was not a "Few Sub Sahran" tribes of the San Hadja described and Equated with blacks it was the majority
You don't give up do you? If you notice it is Batutta who uses the term White, which I equate with Midlle Eastern.
The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
In the 12 century the Sanhaja prohibeted marriage with Blacks.
The known Tuareg tribes i.e. Berbers of Audoghast are just like the Bidane man Jari posted above. That is what "white" meant and means in Sahara. What are u not getting about that.
Unfortunately for you even the Fulani, Zaghai or Songhoi and Sarakholle are called "white" in some texts.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Cont..
Further the Saharan Berber Tauregs whose ancestors were the Garamantes were a dark skinned people...
Interstingly they are described as resembling the people of Triakontaschoinos in Northern Sudan. So we have proof of Dark skinned Sahran berbers going way back.
The only evidence that majority of the Sahran Sanhaja were Middle Eastern is from your ass.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Another Rant bloated out of your smelly arse...
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
As I said Earlier the Bidanes and Haratin have been admixing for years, Bidane have black Heratin blood and vice versa.
Once again..
Some "White Moors"
You can post as many images as you like majotity of the Bidanes of Mauritania look noting like Coastal Berbers who are heavily admixed with various Europeans.
The idea of colorism was not prevelant in Islam, of couse some body who is pitch black is going be singled out as such, however the Term Bidane has no fixed Image, Hell I could go back in those times can claim I am "Bidane" because Im light complexted when compared to the pitch black people in the area..lol.
Garamantes were the agricultural people called Garawa, Ghuwara, Germa, Garama, Jerma, Djerma-Songhai, Zarma throughout the Sahara Fezzan, and Sahel. They were related to the people Tidamansii and Gamphasantes (possibly the N'gam of the Zaghawa) according to the Greeks. Garamantes were invaded by the nomadic Libyan Nasamones or Pharusii or Iforas ancestral Tuareg a people who still hate the plough at one point a people related to the Afar of Eritrea and Arabia.
Both of these people belonging o the original "Libyans" have lived in contiguous relationship ever since.
The Sanhaja included the Lam Lamt,Lamtuna modern Kel Aulamidden clan of the Tuareg, Zaghai or Zaghawa, and the Gaituli or Goddala (Fulani or Bani Warith) known as Waritan Sanhaja. Most Sanhaja were Tuareg.
It is not uncommon for African Americans who are brown to be referred to as white in Africa.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: (Cont. because this peice of sh#t won't let me post my full reply.)
Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja)..
quote:Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”
-Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work,
The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair..
[
quote:Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
- Frigi et al.
Clearly despite your desperate attempts to dismiss and squirm your way out of this beat down you are getting the Sanhadja were seen as black, brown and dark skinned Africans no Eurasians or Whites etc despite them being lighter than the Average SSA.
All you really have is Semantics at this point, after you realized that even the Bidane Moors of Mauretania are for the most part not Pale as you tried to imply earlier.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You get sick in Mexico because the difference in hygeine and food preparation..
Dummy what does "Drinking the Water in Mexico" have to do with Hygene and food preparation. Are you willfully ingnorant or as dense as you act.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: in other words GERMS! GERMS! GERMS! That has nothing to do with geography, you fool.
It has everything to do with Geography and location, you fool. The fact of the matter is people only have this view with Mexico, a Location not with Mexicans a people.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Moreover why would the land of the Blacks begin smack dab in the middle of Mauritania?? What geographical phenomena makes the area more significan t than surrounding areas? NONE! Seems like you would do better grabing at sand than trying to make actual sense..anyway.
The Land of Blacks was the area where the darkest people on Earth according to Muslims lived. Once again being black and white then was different than today, and black people had lived in the Megreb, Arabia and North Africa from the dawn of history. A good example of white and black in the Muslim sense..
This man was seen as white/Bidane/Arab by the Arab Muslims..
The thing as demonstrated over and over again is that being Bidan has nothing to do with race as mixed people and people with Dark to Medium brown skin and features(Hair, Culture, Facial) similar to so called Sudanis would be Bidan like
Anwar.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't need to cuz any sensible person can take a look at what you wrote about Battuta using the term White men and Black men with no racial significance
You have me confused, what I am saying is that when Ibn Bhattuta uses white or Bidan he is including people who could be Dark Brown to Beige etc. in color a wide range of people while blacks were the darkest people on Earth.
Many of the Sahran people are Dark Brown to black skinned going back to the Garamantes.
Your attempts to apply a modern notion of race is obvious distortion of the Muslim texts.
as a reference to climatic zones and see it for the pathetic, poorly thought out, afrocentic hogwash it really is.
Sure it it Negrophobe, the Climate Zones were a vital part of their understanding, which is why Al Jahiz wrote a freaking Kitab called, "The Boasts of the Sudan to the Bidan" and his primary focus is against people who supposedly lived in a temperate climate zone. The idea was that people who did not live in the "Temperate" climate Zone were inferior, Blacks were burned by the Sun and Nordics were Pale and too cold. This is attested to by Ibn Khaludun. Who wrote against this notion.
This just goes to show your ignorance on such matters and desperation to eurasianize the Berbers. Geography played a role in their understanding wether you like it or not.
You idiot the sanhaja were a confederation of various berber tribes some who migrated North Some in the Sub Sahara prbably were Black but most likely looked the average North African Today middle eastern which many would describe as brown. Batutta himself was one of them.
And the problem with consuming things in Mexico is the Mexicans, you dolt, not the geography. The water there as well as the food, is dirty because the people don't have the same standard that we do. I shouldn't have to elaborate on this. And it's not just the water. Lol.
Also many of the Bidane in Mauritania look like caostal Berbers which is why they are Bidane. Do I need to post more pictures?
Here is the famous musician Malouma. As you can see she is caucasian, descendant of the Sanhaja according to their tradition.
kay?
The Tuareg - a Sanhaja or Berber people - use to kill women whose complexion were of her color. Colonial texts tell of how a European woman had the gall to try to ride into their territory and how she had her arm lopped off by sword of a Tuareg who thought she was a ghost.
Up until the Almoravid period when the "Moors" including Tuareg were commonly seen by 19th century Europeans dragging Europeans through desert, the Sanhaja like the rest of Berbers were dark brown and near black in color like most of Tuareg are today.
Let us not forget what the 11th century Ibn Butlan said. "The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though SOME PALE ONES can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of SANHAJA, and whose origin is Masmuda,..." He said the Beja were golden in complexion.
Where does that leave this woman above if in the 11th century Berbers are black and Beja are golden.
Sorry, but one cannot dream into existence what has already taken place. History has already happened. If the entirety of all Berber-speakers comes to be pale or fair-skinned like the woman above in the coming decades that will still leave the Berbers of the time of the period of Moorish conquests what they were - mostly black with a few pale concubines among them.
BTW - Ibn Battuta is not the only writer who calls the Tuareg white, and the Tuareg and Fulani (Sanhaja) are not the only Africans called white in Arabic sources. The Abyssinians are also called "white" in some texts.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Jari is right. The malcontent is living in la-la land. He is desperate to white-wash North Africa because he knows that his people (Europeans) especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry from North Africans, so he tries to sooth this by pretending such North Africans were never black not even in ancient times.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: I don't even know if the French know that North Africans are mixed with Black. I have never heard it mentioned. They are not obsessed with who has Black in them etc. Many famous French folks have North African ancestry Like Isabel Adjani Edith Piaf etc.
Not just the French but all Europeans (at least those not delusional or brainwashed) know that North Africa especially historically had as indigenous inhabitants black people who were later admixed with other peoples mainly Arabs but some Europeans as well. I already showed one famous European of North African ancestry, namely Alessandro de Medici and you remember how he looked.
quote:Do you think anybody cares??
YOU apparently care a little too much.
quote:Yeah I know about the the Song of Roland, it's a work of fiction
So I take it their description of Moors as black was fictional as well even though every other document and texts describes them as black and even the very term 'Moor' means black!
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: The peoples of Awdaghast were white-skinned Berbers of the Sanhaja tribal confederation who had arrived from the western Sahara about a century before Ibn Batutta The quest for El Cid By Richard A. Fletcher
So Im sure you will be able to give us the original word in Arabic where Bhutatta says "White Skinned Berbers" will you.
Don't get caught up. Melanophobe7 often writes a lead in to a modern work as if it were a primary document. In this case the provided quote, once again without proper citation, was not made by ibn Battuta nor any other medieval era NorthWest African.
This however is beside the fact that contemporaneous authors in the west whether Sudane, Berber, or Arab all juxtaposed Sudane (blacks from the 1st and 2nd Zones -- Lamlam, Kanem, Bornu, Gao) and Bidane (whites from the 2nd Zone -- Lemtah, Sanhadja). Note that Ghana cusped both sectors. See - ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah, 1.95-96, 102.
Needless to say the whites of Zone 2 were not ghastly skinned, protruding nose, lipless, true whites, i.e., the NorthWest European/Scandinavian dwellers of Zone 7.
In the linked work, Vincent Cornell, fails to name the subject Sanhaja man or his wife by way of the text or a footnote. How does one follow up on this story when it lacks what's necessary for independent confirmation?
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3).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Jari is right. The malcontent is living in la-la land. He is desperate to white-wash North Africa because he knows that his people (Europeans) especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry from North Africans, so he tries to sooth this by pretending such North Africans were never black not even in ancient times.
His attempted rebuttals help him ease his way as a "white" man into places where low percentages of black ancestry are no bar to whiteness especially when the one having noticeable African ancestry constantly derides blacks and up plays whites.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not just the French but all Europeans (at least those not delusional or brainwashed) know that North Africa especially historically had as indigenous inhabitants black people who were later admixed with other peoples mainly Arabs but some Europeans as well.
Such are the facts revealed by ancient to current investigators and commentators all noting North Africa had its own black phenotype different in its particulars as do many west, central, east and southern black specific phenotypes differ in their particulars though they are all recognizable as blacks.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I retract the above statment it seems some of the Sanhadja did prohibit marriage with Sudanis but it had nothing to do with race of course.
Riiiiighhht!
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
Unless you have been totally lobotomized you would realize there is no way they could remain this light over the centuries unless they kept to themselves. There has clearly been an aparthied in Mauritania and there is a strong racial element involved. Aparently they felt that light skin was the property of the the true berbers/Sanhaja and they have sought to preserve this.
Here are Black Mauritanians
You can try to squirm all you want and make claims about what was...many years ago, and dispute the meaning of simple words like White and Black etc. Thats all afrocentrics are good for. But pictures don't lie.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Needless to say the whites of Zone 2 were not ghastly skinned, protruding nose, lipless, true whites, i.e., the NorthWest European/Scandinavian dwellers of Zone
Why should they be? Lol thats your silly way or reckoning. Scandinavians are the extreme. Most Europeans and Caucasians don't look like freakin Scandinvains. Mediterrean people and Middle Easterners are much closer to Europeans than to Sub Saharan Africans in fact Mediterraneans are the orginal Caucasians.
His attempted rebuttals help him ease his way as a "white" man into places where low percentages of black ancestry are no bar to whiteness especially when the one having noticeable African ancestry constantly derides blacks and up plays whites.
I am not considered White by anyone. Nor do I want to be. Stop trying to project your outdated and simplistic racialist notions on my intentions.
I have no problem being non white and it has not been a burden or problem for me in anyway. I know you are an African your views of what really race relations are like in the US. I know the French and other Europeans seem to think that Blacks Americans are always being oppressed or mistreated by society at large. That is total Bs. You need to listen to Herman Cain. That man speaks the truth, which is why many Blacks hate him.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Jari is right. The malcontent is living in la-la land. He is desperate to white-wash North Africa because he knows that his people (Europeans) especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry from North Africans, so he tries to sooth this by pretending such North Africans were never black not even in ancient times.
That would be a strange motivation on my part considering that I am not even White myself. You are essentially arguing about the Moors. And no most weren't Black though some were.
Not just the French but all Europeans (at least those not delusional or brainwashed) know that North Africa especially historically had as indigenous inhabitants black people who were later admixed with other peoples mainly Arabs but some Europeans as well. I already showed one famous European of North African ancestry, namely Alessandro de Medici and you remember how he looked.
No, I don't know that the French think that North Africa was originally Black. In fact when I went to school they hardly talk about the Moors at all only about French colonization, and the war of independence in Algeria etc. But as far as Medici, a lot of people in Southern Europe spain, Italy even France are naturally swarthy, that doesn't necessarily mean the have Black ancestry, but then you never know Look at the famous French Designer Christian Louboutin.
He looks like he could be part Black..in fact he looks like me but I don't believe he claims any Black ancestry
So I take it their description of Moors as black was fictional as well even though every other document and texts describes them as black and even the very term 'Moor' means black
First of all its a work of fiction you can't quite take its descriptions at face value. But yohooti since you seem like a decent lad I'm going to clue you in on something..And that is, in the Song of Roland, many of the armies of Moors are listed as coming from North Africa "Carthage", "Alfeme", "Garmalie", But the Blacks one are said to come Ethiopia! If they thought were North Africans Black then they wouldn't need to bring up Ethiopia.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Riiiiighhht!
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
Ive posted plenty of Bidane Moors for an unbiased person without any emotional attatchment to the issue to judge. No need to cherry pick when we have this..
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Unless you have been totally lobotomized you would realize there is no way they could remain this light over the centuries unless they kept to themselves.
You posted 3 pictures, I posted a varified Source, More than 10 Images of large crowds etc. You emotional ranting defies logic. Obviously a minority still remain light but even they are no where near pale and the majority are Brown Skinned with African features. Check my previous images.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: There has clearly been an aparthied in Mauritania and there is a strong racial element involved. Aparently they felt that light skin was the property of the the true berbers/Sanhaja and they have sought to preserve this.
This is your opinion and I can give two shits if you accept it or not. The idea of Bidane as been demonstated over and over again has nothing to do with skin color but with paternity, I.E a Male "Arab" lineage. The "Apartied" was that of a Warrior caste, prior to the French the Moors conquered the natives and formed a warrior caste. The Apartied is a mix of post colonial conflict, Arabization etc. Funny part is the black moors see themselves seperate from so called "Black Africans" etc.
quote:Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors were divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and were distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, although it often was difficult to distinguish between the two groups by skin color. The majority of those known as Black Moors were Haratine, literally meaning "one who has been freed," although some Black Moor families never were enslaved.
quote:“White”, Bidan or Beydane Moors historically enslaved by the “black” Moors, sometimes called Haratine, and slavery at differing levels is still much in evidence in contemporary Mauritania. (The words “black” and “white” are misleading in this context in that they do not denote colour, but rather paternal descent).
More
quote:Once free, however, ex-slaves are subject to continuing discrimination, by the elite moors and the smaller black elite, from whom they are distinguishable in appearance (Haratine Moors may range all the way between black and white)
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You can try to squirm all you want and make claims about what was...many years ago, and dispute the meaning of simple words like White and Black etc. Thats all afrocentrics are good for. But pictures don't lie.
Im not the one squirming, The evidence is on my side no matter how you look at it. The Truth be told many Berbers don't even know about the "White Moor"/"Black Moor" conflict nor is this wide spread. Further the Bidanes/Haratine situation is a paternal/Subjugation conflict. This is no different than Sudan and Darfur. Any form of racism is due to Paternal conflict from long ago and a Colonial mentality etc.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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One of the men anove is named "Keith" the othe Mohammed...Wonder who the Mauritanian man is..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^^ LOL Does the malcontent idiot think we are dumber than him to buy his claims as well as his select few pictures?!...
You already cited two sources saying that the division of 'Bidan' and 'Haratin' had nothing to do with skin color as both divisions share many of the same complexions but more about paternal ancestry!
You know that's funny because even the malcontent has admitted in a couple of occasions that traditional Berber culture is matrilineal yet he forgets that many Berber groups were Arabized in varying degrees with some emphasizing Arab paternal ancestry via the Hassaniya and other Arab tribes. We already know that these same more patriarchal Arabs were the instigators of importing white European women as slaves and concubines into North Africa!
Again this explains the 'mulatto' appearance of many North Africans including Mauritanians.
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7:
Here are the Bidane Maurs.
^ LMAO His pics remind me of select pics of Pakistani and Indian women with the same complexion. Apparently the fool does not know that skin bleaching is a common problem in many parts of Africa.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes but what we have to understand is that Arabs or Eurasians invaded North Africa during the common era. Many of the Bidanes who are light reflect this history as the Bidanes claim Arab history....
quote: Anyway, in commemmoration of this event, I will talk a little about Zenaga this week. Zenaga is the nearly-extinct Berber language of Mauritania. Until about five hundred years ago it was spoken throughout most of the country; its ancestor would have been the language of the Almoravids. However, after the main Berber tribe, the Lamtuna, was defeated by the Arab Beni Ma`qil, most tribes gradually shifted to Hassaniya Arabic, which itself came to contain numerous Zenaga loanwords. The "marabout" tribes, those specialising in Islamic religious learning, retained Zenaga longest, and to this day it continues to be used, at least by the elderly, in a few areas near the southern Atlantic coast. It is remarkably divergent from other Berber varieties, due partly to a number of sound shifts (x > k, l > dj) and partly to a rather different vocabulary, incorporating words rare elsewhere in Berber along with Wolof and Pulaar loanwords. In addition to influencing Hassaniya Arabic, it has also contributed a number of loanwords to the Azer dialect of Soninke, and several words - notably the words for three of the five prayer times, and some religious holidays - to Wolof. Catherine Taine-Cheikh has been doing some documentation of it.
At least one of the few books on this language is available online: Le Zénaga des tribus sénégalaises, by General Faidherbe - although, chillingly, the author dedicates it to the genocidal mass murderer King Leopold II.
possible Zenegas (many of the Mauritanian Manuscripts are works of the Sanhaja therefore its only logical that the people who own them are descendants of the Sahaja scholarly elite just as in Timbuctoo..etc..)
Notice they wear the colors of the Nobles/Berbers/Moors..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Yes but what we have to understand is that Arabs or Eurasians invaded North Africa during the common era. Many of the Bidanes who are light reflect this history as the Bidanes claim Arab history....
Eurasians invaded North Africa during before the common era and after the common era. This includes, Vandals, Sea people and Phoenicians. One example, Carthage, at it's height had a population of a half millon people.
Posts: 43012 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^^^^ True, but do you make of the Bidane Hassinya/Zenaga black Moor Situation given the evidence of Arabization and the Bani Hilial and other Arab invasions to North Africa..
In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).
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No matter how many pictures you post you can not avoid certain facts, namely that Mauriatania is deep into Africa and much of it was considered land of the Blacks by Batutta so the indigenous would be Blacks. And yet you have so many light skinned people who call themselves Bidan and claim descent from Sanhaja Berbers and Arabs who came from the north. Obviously these light traits are not native to the indigenous and most have come with the invasion of the Sanhaja. Therefore the Snahja must have been light skinned with sharp Eurasian features. and they didn't use the term White and Black to contrats themsleves with the natives for nothing. Common sense dude. Ok so many did mix, but the orgigianl light phenotype is there. You don't to be a genius to realize that. Even Dana knows it but she will lie and spin, and spin some more.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Does the malcontent idiot think we are dumber than him to buy his claims as well as his select few pictures?!...
You already cited two sources saying that the division of 'Bidan' and 'Haratin' had nothing to do with skin color as both divisions share many of the same complexions but more about paternal ancestry!
If your intent is to claim that the invading Sanhaja berbers who invaded looked the same as the native Mauretanians and that the term Bidan was no bearing at all on having lighter skin, than yeah..I would guess that you are dumber than me.
Click on this to see what upper class Moors look like.
The Tuareg - a Sanhaja or Berber people - use to kill women whose complexion were of her color. Colonial texts tell of how a European woman had the gall to try to ride into their territory and how she had her arm lopped off by sword of a Tuareg who thought she was a ghost.
Yeah that's why the Tuareg of the Fezzan have higher frequencies of European mtDNA H1, more than any other population in the world! Looks like they luved them some white women.
Stop hatin'!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: No matter how many pictures you post you can not avoid certain facts, namely that Mauriatania is deep into Africa and much of it was considered land of the Blacks by Batutta so the indigenous would be Blacks. And yet you have so many light skinned people who call themselves Bidan and claim descent from Sanhaja Berbers and Arabs who came from the north
At this point its just a matter of emotional denial of facts. I already posted evidence and corroborating Images that the Bidane is all about Paternal decent not skin color. The Bidanes actually conquered the Sanhadja and subjugated them as well. Further I posted Images of the people who own the Damn Manuscripts with "Almoravid" and Sanhadja Law etc. As I said earlier an unbiased observer can see clearly that the Sanhaja were close in resemblence to Black Africans..
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Obviously these light traits are not native to the indigenous and most have come with the invasion of the Sanhaja.
No whats obvious is you are an emotionally driven cry baby who tries to distort and run in circles. First off the "Light" Bidanes speak Hassinya Arabic and descend from an Arabic people who conquered the Zenega as well as the Sonnike and Wolof people of Mauritania. It has already been established that the Sanhaja were in the large "Brown and Black" with a few Pale one among them as well as being compared to black Africans in the Fatimid Army.
You claiming that the Bidanes are the Sanhaja and not Arabs despite the language and obvious history has no support.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Therefore the Snahja must have been light skinned with sharp Eurasian features.
You have been claiming this for 3 pages with not a drop of supporting evidence.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: and they didn't use the term White and Black to contrats themsleves with the natives for nothing. Common sense dude.
The Term White and black here is subjective. People who look like Anwar Sedat would have been called "White", so trying to impose western ideology on Islamic sources is a point of desperation.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Ok so many did mix, but the orgigianl light phenotype is there.
A representation of the Invader Arabs.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: You don't to be a genius to realize that. Even Dana knows it but she will lie and spin, and spin some more.
The only person lying and distorting here is you, both here and on the R1b thread. I realize why, it hurts your feelings that there were black berbers, a win for so called "Afrocentrism"..lol
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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At this point its just a matter of emotional denial of facts. I already posted evidence and corroborating Images that the Bidane is all about Paternal decent not skin color. The Bidanes actually conquered the Sanhadja and subjugated them as well. Further I posted Images of the people who own the Damn Manuscripts with "Almoravid" and Sanhadja Law etc. As I said earlier an unbiased observer can see clearly that the Sanhaja were close in resemblence to Black Africans..
Dude you yourself mention that the Bidan Moors claim descent from Beni Hassan Arabs who we know are not Black Africans. Now should one think it's a coindince that they distinguish themsleves by calling themselves Bidan?? Are you freakin serious?? Oh yeah they were a mixture of Sanhaja Berbers too, so still light. So it was about color after all.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Dude you yourself mention that the Bidan Moors claim descent from Beni Hassan Arabs who we know are not Black Africans.
And, what the hell is your point?? We are talking about the Sanhaja not Arabs. BTW, not all Arabs are light some can be quite Dark etc. Even you yourself have contended that the aboriginal Arabs were "Veddiod" people with Africoid features. There is still a presence of this type on Socotra Island in Yemen. I doubt these people came into Africa but it gives you something to think about when it comes to "Eurasians" many Socotrans look like HOA's and other Kushites.
quote:Are you freakin serious?? Oh yeah they were a mixture of Sanhaja Berbers too, so still light. So it was about color after all.
They mixed with Sanhaja, Sudanis etc. This bears out in the Hassinya language with Sonnike and Zenega loan words.Once again has nothing to do with color but paternal decent, which is why you have "Blacks" in the Bidane class. This is how Islamic cultures work, again Anwar sedat. This is a verified fact if you accept it or not.
The woman I posted Dimi Mint Abbas was a Bidane Moor of a lower rank called iggawin. Her Low rank had nothing to do with color but the fact that it was the Musician class. Don't you get it, originally the "Castes" were a Warrior caste, both Sudanis, and Zenaga berbers were conquered.
Look as Dimi she looks very similar to the people who one the Almoravid Libraries, I even posted a Maurabout the people who speak the Zenega language. These people are all Brown and Dark Brown with African Features.
Im really starting to think you are mildly retarded. You can't seem to retain basic information..once again reguarding the Sanhaja..
Once Again..
quote:"“The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “"
-Ibn Butlan
11th Century..
Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”.
-11th Century
See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
quote:(At the moment the published DBM list contains no troops that fit this description, and the most likely candidates at this date are probably the Berbers. The Persian traveller Nasir-i Khusrau described Fatimid Masmuda infantry as armed with spear and sword (Yaacov Lev, "Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094", International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies 19.3 (1987), p.342; although Nasir-i Khusrau for some reason describes them as black Africans, the Masmuda are a Berber confederacy).)
.........The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
BTW, Garrig the Woman I posted Dimi Mint Abbas, was a Moorish Singer of the rank iggawin, a Low rank in the Moorish class. She looks similar to the Mauritanians who own the Manuscripts, many of which have Almoravid law.
A good way to explain how colorism in Islam works is to imagine the opposite of the One Drop Rule. One drop of Arab blood makes one "Arab"..
There is too much proof establishing the Dark skinned Africoid appearance of the Saharan Berbers. I honestly don't understand why this bothers you so..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^ I already explained why it bothers him so much...
It is because he knows Europeans especially southern Europeans along the Mediterranean have mixed ancestry via North Africans so he like the other Euronuts are left with no option but to white-wash North Africans and that includes not only Egyptians but Berbers. By white-washing North Africa they can segregate Europeans further from blacks whom they fear "contamination" by.
This white-washing is futile as it is pathetic but it is all they have left. Unfortunately as we've seen with folks like Perahu and Evil-Euro, they eventually stumble onto the problem that North Africa's populations are continuous with those of [black] Sub-Sahara and are thus forced to white-wash that region as well.
It is a sick and twisted game based on an equally sick mentality.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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If your intent is to claim that the invading Sanhaja berbers who invaded looked the same as the native Mauretanians and that the term Bidan was no bearing at all on having lighter skin, than yeah..I would guess that you are dumber than me.
"In this translation the term 'Sudan' refers to the land area, and 'sadan' to the people. Arabic- or Berber-speaking Saharans often refer to themselves, by contrast, as bidan-'whites'. As observed in the introduction, these categories are referents of cultural practices rather than of skin colours.-- John Hunwick
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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On the other hand when ancient authors called specific attention only to color of certian Garamantes and Mauri, and made implied comparisions with Ethiopians they were perhaps describing racially mixed segments
Gladiators from the Zliten mosaic
Posts: 43012 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Why do you assume that the skin tone in that spam is of someone who is "racially mixed"? Is that skin tone your example of the so-called "intermediate" phenotype you were so afraid to clarify for Evergreen in another thread?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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