posted
I was reading an online scan of a book titled The curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (found here), and it claims that medieval Arabs classified native Egyptians as "Sudan" (blacks). Here is the excerpt in question:
Does anyone know of an Arabic quote describing Egyptians as "Sudan"?
Posts: 7082 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I was reading an online scan of a book titled The curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (found here), and it claims that medieval Arabs classified native Egyptians as "Sudan" (blacks). Here is the excerpt in question:
Does anyone know of an Arabic quote describing Egyptians as "Sudan"?
posted
^ He must no doubt be referring to the aboriginal peoples of southern China rather than the actual Chinese. Even the Han or ethnic Chinese speak of black peoples who once lived in the jungles of the south.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
China would've been better translated Indo-China, i.e., Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, VietNam.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
There is a passage from Al-Maqrizi that states the Qibts(Arabic name from Egyptians) during the 1400's resembled Nubians,Abyssianians,Syrians and Greeks. He attests to the fact that during this period Egyptians were hetrogenous and varied greatly and a good portion of them could pass for Abyssinians and Nubians. The hetrogenous nature of Egyptians at this time probably is the reason why Arabic writers did not count Egypt as part of Bilad-al-Sudan.
Another Arabic writer named Ibn Butlan stated that the people of Said were mostly dark and very few people with pale faces could be found amongst them. Considering Ibn Butlan was an Iraqi Arab I am assuming he was probably tanned so the people in southern Egypt he saw had to be considerably darker.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
There is a distinction made between Tribes/Groups and inhabitants of a land...
Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.
Al-Jahiz(The Zanj) is not saying that the Chinese are black but that there are black populations in China.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ He must no doubt be referring to the aboriginal peoples of southern China rather than the actual Chinese. Even the Han or ethnic Chinese speak of black peoples who once lived in the jungles of the south.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Topic: Asian blacks? Not unless they're negroid I say
And exactly who said this??! It certainly was not I. Again, you continue these false accusations of me
LOL Mary, Mary. Always the innocent one. LOL!
Yes that thread is nothing more than a false accusation. Of course the only reason why you bring this up is to tease my d|ck. No doubt you're just mad becuz Jari and Kalonji smacked you around. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: There is a passage from Al-Maqrizi that states the Qibts(Arabic name from Egyptians) during the 1400's resembled Nubians,Abyssianians,Syrians and Greeks. He attests to the fact that during this period Egyptians were hetrogenous and varied greatly and a good portion of them could pass for Abyssinians and Nubians. The hetrogenous nature of Egyptians at this time probably is the reason why Arabic writers did not count Egypt as part of Bilad-al-Sudan.
Another Arabic writer named Ibn Butlan stated that the people of Said were mostly dark and very few people with pale faces could be found amongst them. Considering Ibn Butlan was an Iraqi Arab I am assuming he was probably tanned so the people in southern Egypt he saw had to be considerably darker.
This makes perfect sense. I knew Arab writings mentioned Egyptians as mostly but not entirely black.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
This is a stupid thread, but it's the internet, and stupid threaders are free to participate.
but...
What or who gives a rat's fart what the Arab description of who the Ancient Egyptians were or even the descriptions by the Greeks or the Romans...
The Ancient Egyptians were not an illiterate people and are not an extinct species of people; the Ancient Egyptians described themselves in writing, who they were as a people and their origins, and their direct descendants are still very much alive in the Nile Valley today and still Black...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes that thread is nothing more than a false accusation.
bitch STFU and speak when you are spoken to. Go get your other whoring friends, I just got paid today.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I was reading an online scan of a book titled The curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (found here), and it claims that medieval Arabs classified native Egyptians as "Sudan" (blacks). Here is the excerpt in question:
Does anyone know of an Arabic quote describing Egyptians as "Sudan"?
"But even the most vociferous of the defenders of rabbinical honor, like David M. Goldenberg (in Cornel West's book), admit that the Talmudic rabbis had a "preference" for light skin and that their stories "see dark skin as a form of divine punishment"."
quote:Originally posted by ausar: There is a passage from Al-Maqrizi that states the Qibts(Arabic name from Egyptians) during the 1400's resembled Nubians,Abyssianians,Syrians and Greeks. He attests to the fact that during this period Egyptians were hetrogenous and varied greatly and a good portion of them could pass for Abyssinians and Nubians. The hetrogenous nature of Egyptians at this time probably is the reason why Arabic writers did not count Egypt as part of Bilad-al-Sudan.
Another Arabic writer named Ibn Butlan stated that the people of Said were mostly dark and very few people with pale faces could be found amongst them. Considering Ibn Butlan was an Iraqi Arab I am assuming he was probably tanned so the people in southern Egypt he saw had to be considerably darker.
Bilad as-Sudan lol. Just kidding Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: There is a distinction made between Tribes/Groups and inhabitants of a land...
Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.
Al-Jahiz(The Zanj) is not saying that the Chinese are black but that there are black populations in China.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ He must no doubt be referring to the aboriginal peoples of southern China rather than the actual Chinese. Even the Han or ethnic Chinese speak of black peoples who once lived in the jungles of the south.
True and it's an important distinction to make. Especially when it comes to non-African regions. al-Jahiz is probably the best writer during the Middle Ages to use to give a modern audience a glimpse of the time period.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: This is a stupid thread, but it's the internet, and stupid threaders are free to participate.
but...
What or who gives a rat's fart what the Arab description of who the Ancient Egyptians were or even the descriptions by the Greeks or the Romans...
The Ancient Egyptians were not an illiterate people and are not an extinct species of people; the Ancient Egyptians described themselves in writing, who they were as a people and their origins, and their direct descendants are still very much alive in the Nile Valley today and still Black...
I don't think it's a stupid thread, but I would like to see the writings of Fatimid and Mamluk muslims to see how they describe their own civilizations and the people that populated it.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
^ I agree. This thread is not stupid at all, and how Arabs described Egyptians is still significant to the historiography of Egypt. No offense to Wally, but his claim is what's stupid. Of course the Egyptians had their own writings and descriptions of themselves and their descendants are indeed not extinct but still exist today as proven by folks in this forum like Ausar and Multisphinx. Truth's thread is just fuel to the fire of truth that yes the Egyptians remained black and were described as such by the Arab invaders.
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeingdumb&gay: bitch STFU and speak when you are spoken to. Go get your other whoring friends, I just got paid today.
Look now, I'm not one of your bootyfriends so don't speak to me like I am. And do not project your personal issues on to me either. We know all about you, argay, and the rest of your gang. It's a wonder why you're still in this forum. You never contribute anything but your vitriol and jewphobia.
Speaking of which..
quote:"But even the most vociferous of the defenders of rabbinical honor, like David M. Goldenberg (in Cornel West's book), admit that the Talmudic rabbis had a "preference" for light skin and that their stories "see dark skin as a form of divine punishment"."
And your point? Goldenberg recognizes that such a (Ashkenazi) Jewish tradition is unfounded in the Torah which he explains in his book 'Curse of Ham', dummy.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Bitch you know damn well you sell your pussy for a living. Is that another "false accusation"? lol
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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You do understand Mameluks had nothing to do with civilization in Egypt but imposing rule over it.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ... I would like to see the writings of Fatimid and Mamluk muslims to see how they describe their own civilizations and the people that populated it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
This is a stupid thread, but it's the internet, and stupid threaders are free to participate.
but...
What or who gives a rat's fart what the Arab description of who the Ancient Egyptians were or even the descriptions by the Greeks or the Romans...
The Ancient Egyptians were not an illiterate people and are not an extinct species of people; the Ancient Egyptians described themselves in writing, who they were as a people and their origins, and their direct descendants are still very much alive in the Nile Valley today and still Black...
"bilad as sudan" or more accurately "bilad as suten" means in the original language "The Land of the Kings" - Black, King, Royal, and Ruler were synonyms in antiquity.
Take a break if you're interested, study some Ancient Egyptian...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: There is a passage from Al-Maqrizi that states the Qibts(Arabic name from Egyptians) during the 1400's resembled Nubians,Abyssianians,Syrians and Greeks. He attests to the fact that during this period Egyptians were hetrogenous and varied greatly and a good portion of them could pass for Abyssinians and Nubians. The hetrogenous nature of Egyptians at this time probably is the reason why Arabic writers did not count Egypt as part of Bilad-al-Sudan.
Another Arabic writer named Ibn Butlan stated that the people of Said were mostly dark and very few people with pale faces could be found amongst them. Considering Ibn Butlan was an Iraqi Arab I am assuming he was probably tanned so the people in southern Egypt he saw had to be considerably darker.
Ibn Butlan was supposedly of Greek Iraqi origin.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
The name Suwayd or Sud'an is considered by Arab traditionalists and genealogists the name for a Kanaana man or an Arabian. The name Kana'an refered to in this sense refers only to the ancient and modern Arab tribe of Banu Kana'ana living in southern Arabia among the Dawasir along with the Banu Suwayd or Sudan their sub-clan. It is not just being used in an allegorical or legendary sense.
It is because of the extreme blackness of these Azd (a branch of Kahlan brother of Himyar) until the Iranian settlement in Arabia certain Iranian and Syrian peoples shows to make Ham black and cursed.
The ending "an" is a commonly added people suffix added to their tribal names thus we have Badran, Ajlan (Eglon), Zahran, Kahlan, Dahman, Bahran, Sudan, Hamdan, Basman/Eshban, etc. It is mainly clan names of this modern group of authentic Arabs that are mentioned in the book of Genesis as the "Canaanite" peoples.
It is also useful to note the names Kipti, Misraim, Casluhim, Kuth and Capturim are also customarily utilized in Arabian tradition in the sense of ancient African-Arabian peoples.
Misraim is the same as Assyrian Musri (today called Musra), Casluhim (likely el Haskunah), Capturim equals Keftiu a people of Tunip (Dafinah) who also lived in other places around the Mediterranean, Kuth or "Kuth son of Ham" is Kudha'a ancestor to the Afro-Arabian Mahra who is said to have settled as far east as India.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: Bitch you know damn well you sell your pussy for a living. Is that another "false accusation"? lol
Wooooow...
Yeah... as trollish as they come.
Indeed. Anguished is just projecting his personal issues onto me. We know he and Argay are part of a Eurogang that does the very things he attributes to me.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The name Suwayd or Sud'an is considered by Arab traditionalists and genealogists the name for a Kanaana man or an Arabian. The name Kana'an refered to in this sense refers only to the ancient and modern Arab tribe of Banu Kana'ana living in southern Arabia among the Dawasir along with the Banu Suwayd or Sudan their sub-clan. It is not just being used in an allegorical or legendary sense.
It is because of the extreme blackness of these Azd (a branch of Kahlan brother of Himyar) until the Iranian settlement in Arabia certain Iranian and Syrian peoples shows to make Ham black and cursed.
The ending "an" is a commonly added people suffix added to their tribal names thus we have Badran, Ajlan (Eglon), Zahran, Kahlan, Dahman, Bahran, Sudan, Hamdan, Basman/Eshban, etc. It is mainly clan names of this modern group of authentic Arabs that are mentioned in the book of Genesis as the "Canaanite" peoples.
It is also useful to note the names Kipti, Misraim, Casluhim, Kuth and Capturim are also customarily utilized in Arabian tradition in the sense of ancient African-Arabian peoples.
Misraim is the same as Assyrian Musri (today called Musra), Casluhim (likely el Haskunah), Capturim equals Keftiu a people of Tunip (Dafinah) who also lived in other places around the Mediterranean, Kuth or "Kuth son of Ham" is Kudha'a ancestor to the Afro-Arabian Mahra who is said to have settled as far east as India.
I was under the impression that the name Sudan is derived from another Arabic word not necessarily meaning black. Why would the land south of Egypt be named after an Arabic tribe?
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The colonial Arabic name for Africa was "Bled asSud" (bee.lahdt ah.swad.uh) which means simply, "Black man's land"...
The "Sudan" did not just consist of the modern state of Sudan, but all of the states and territories that the Arabs were trying to subjugate; ie, Ghana, Mali, Timbuktu, Songhai...referred to by European scholars as "the Western Sudan"
The Sudan (Africa) wasn't named after any Arab tribe!
The Arab conquest of Egypt would ultimately come to serve as their base, where Cairo would become the Capital of the Arab empire. This "Sudan" or Egypt would be stripped of its language and culture, and colonized...
...
"bilad as sudan" or more accurately "bilad as suten" means in the original African language "The Land of the Kings" - Black, King, Royal, and Ruler were synonyms in antiquity...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The name Suwayd or Sud'an is considered by Arab traditionalists and genealogists the name for a Kanaana man or an Arabian. The name Kana'an refered to in this sense refers only to the ancient and modern Arab tribe of Banu Kana'ana living in southern Arabia among the Dawasir along with the Banu Suwayd or Sudan their sub-clan. It is not just being used in an allegorical or legendary sense.
It is because of the extreme blackness of these Azd (a branch of Kahlan brother of Himyar) until the Iranian settlement in Arabia certain Iranian and Syrian peoples shows to make Ham black and cursed.
The ending "an" is a commonly added people suffix added to their tribal names thus we have Badran, Ajlan (Eglon), Zahran, Kahlan, Dahman, Bahran, Sudan, Hamdan, Basman/Eshban, etc. It is mainly clan names of this modern group of authentic Arabs that are mentioned in the book of Genesis as the "Canaanite" peoples.
It is also useful to note the names Kipti, Misraim, Casluhim, Kuth and Capturim are also customarily utilized in Arabian tradition in the sense of ancient African-Arabian peoples.
Misraim is the same as Assyrian Musri (today called Musra), Casluhim (likely el Haskunah), Capturim equals Keftiu a people of Tunip (Dafinah) who also lived in other places around the Mediterranean, Kuth or "Kuth son of Ham" is Kudha'a ancestor to the Afro-Arabian Mahra who is said to have settled as far east as India.
So a question. Are modern day Sudanese muslims REALLY arab as they say? Or are they simply brain-washed arabized Africans?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The name Suwayd or Sud'an is considered by Arab traditionalists and genealogists the name for a Kanaana man or an Arabian. The name Kana'an refered to in this sense refers only to the ancient and modern Arab tribe of Banu Kana'ana living in southern Arabia among the Dawasir along with the Banu Suwayd or Sudan their sub-clan. It is not just being used in an allegorical or legendary sense.
It is because of the extreme blackness of these Azd (a branch of Kahlan brother of Himyar) until the Iranian settlement in Arabia certain Iranian and Syrian peoples shows to make Ham black and cursed.
The ending "an" is a commonly added people suffix added to their tribal names thus we have Badran, Ajlan (Eglon), Zahran, Kahlan, Dahman, Bahran, Sudan, Hamdan, Basman/Eshban, etc. It is mainly clan names of this modern group of authentic Arabs that are mentioned in the book of Genesis as the "Canaanite" peoples.
It is also useful to note the names Kipti, Misraim, Casluhim, Kuth and Capturim are also customarily utilized in Arabian tradition in the sense of ancient African-Arabian peoples.
Misraim is the same as Assyrian Musri (today called Musra), Casluhim (likely el Haskunah), Capturim equals Keftiu a people of Tunip (Dafinah) who also lived in other places around the Mediterranean, Kuth or "Kuth son of Ham" is Kudha'a ancestor to the Afro-Arabian Mahra who is said to have settled as far east as India.
I was under the impression that the name Sudan is derived from another Arabic word not necessarily meaning black. Why would the land south of Egypt be named after an Arabic tribe?
That makes two good questions now lol.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: So a question. Are modern day Sudanese muslims REALLY arab as they say? Or are they simply brain-washed arabized Africans?
Mainly the latter. In Arab society, if one's father is Arab then is that person. The Arabs did colonize Sudan, but there numbers were considerably fewer in Sudan than in Egypt. Thus the vast majority of Sudanese claiming to be Arab due so based on fabricated genealogies. You are aware of the ashraf system in Islam where anyone where those with supposed blood relations to the Prophet Muhammad automatically have prestige. Thus it is not surprising that many Muslim elites not only in Africa but in Asia (even Indonesia and the Philippines) claim descent from someone in Muhammad's family if not Muhammad himself! Of course it is always easiest to fabricate a lineage to some Arab personage rather than a relative of the Prophet, which is what so many in Islamicized countries do. Sadly because of the late slave trade in Africans (as opposed to the earlier one in whites), many Muslim Africans have bought into the negative stereotypes about their own people and would rather claim 'Arab' identity than whatever ethnic identity they truly were.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
So a question. Are modern day Ethiopian Falashas and Christians Amharics REALLY Semitic as they say? Or are they simply brain-washed "Semitized" Africans?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
one correction,the arabs only colonize upper and lower nubia,not southern nubia or the rest of sudan. THER WERE OTHER AFRICAN KINGDOMS in the sudan BEFORE the 1900's,some were nubian too. it was really the british and turks who conqured large parts of sudan.
The turks took over much of northern sudan but not all of it,and it was the british who took over most of it IN THE LATE 1800'S and in 1956 gave it to the brainwash arabized africans.
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The Funj Sultanate of Sennar (sometimes spelled Sinnar), known in Sudanese traditions as the Blue Sultanate (Arabic: السلطنة الزرقاء; As-Saltana az-Zarqa),[9] was a sultanate in the north of Sudan, named Funj after the ethnic group of its dynasty or Sinnar (or Sennar) after its capital, which ruled a substantial area of northeast Africa between 1504 and 1821.
Origin In the 15th century the part of Nubia formerly controlled by Makuria was home to a number of small states and subject to frequent incursions by desert nomads. The situation in Alodia is less well known, but it also seems as though that state had collapsed. The area was reunified under Abdallah Jamma, the gatherer, who came from the eastern regions that had grown wealthy and powerful from the trade on the Red Sea. Abdallah's empire was short lived as in the early 16th century the Funj people under Amara Dunqas arrived from the south, having been driven north by the Shilluk. The Funj defeated Abdallah and set up their own kingdom based at Sennar. ____________ note- the Abdallah Jamma were islamic nubians,i think arabized but still 100% nubian and still had a great degree of the nubian culture ,or basically still had it.
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Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
_____________________________________________ note-there was another new nubian kingdom in the 1600's and lasted until the 1700's around meroe,but the funj took over again. the last nubian kingdoms lasted until 1898.,but i do know if the hill nubian kingdoms were ever conqured by the british.
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Djehuti wrote: ------------------------------------------ The Arabs did colonize Sudan ------------------------------------------
And you base this on what? You haven't done one minute of research and here you are spouting off with what amounts to nothing more than your mindless opinion. This forum is about evidence and facts.
posted
correction Abdallah Jamma was not nubian,but a arab.it seems he only conqured parts of alwa,he had help from africans.The rest was conqured it seems by the funj.It seems arabs,with africans and the funj africans invaded alwa but it was the funj who conqured the whole region.
here is a more clear history- Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
________________ I WOULD LIKE TO DO MORE DETAILED RESEARCH myself. To get get a proper and more clear update history of early modern sudan,you have to find a updated good history book.
# ^ P.L. Shinnie, Ancient Nubia (London: Kegan Paul International, 1996), p. 133.
and this
Derek A. Welsby, The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia. Pagans, Christians and Muslims along the Middle Nile. London: The British Museum Press, ...
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I think Wally answered it.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: So a question. Are modern day Sudanese muslims REALLY arab as they say? Or are they simply brain-washed arabized Africans?
Mainly the latter. In Arab society, if one's father is Arab then is that person. The Arabs did colonize Sudan, but there numbers were considerably fewer in Sudan than in Egypt. Thus the vast majority of Sudanese claiming to be Arab due so based on fabricated genealogies. You are aware of the ashraf system in Islam where anyone where those with supposed blood relations to the Prophet Muhammad automatically have prestige. Thus it is not surprising that many Muslim elites not only in Africa but in Asia (even Indonesia and the Philippines) claim descent from someone in Muhammad's family if not Muhammad himself! Of course it is always easiest to fabricate a lineage to some Arab personage rather than a relative of the Prophet, which is what so many in Islamicized countries do. Sadly because of the late slave trade in Africans (as opposed to the earlier one in whites), many Muslim Africans have bought into the negative stereotypes about their own people and would rather claim 'Arab' identity than whatever ethnic identity they truly were.
That's what I thought. The reason I asked is to see where Dana's research fits in.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
No, southern nubia was irem before the new kingdom of egypt,or it had cheifdoms or states or both,or it was another state south of kush,but it became apart of kush after the new kingdom.
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^ But is not southern Nubia the same as Upper Nubia just as southern Egypt is the same as Upper Egypt and northern Nubia the same as Lower Nubia etc?? I know Kush and Irem are different polities but they are all 'Nubian' as Nubia is a region.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
There'll always be twisting unless everybody agrees what is Nubia.
Some people see a Nubia as everything upNile from the Egypt of the pharaohs even before the New Kingdom and even though the word wasn't used then.
Some folk see a Nubia as synonymous with a limited region no further south than the cataract 2nd cataract.
Others see a border changing Nubia as Egyptian annexing rolled ever southward although New Kingdom Egyptians used the word Kush as in King's Son of Kush in that era.
Kush flexed its muscles and ripped, from various centers at various times, a territory from the junction of Blue and White Niles to the 1st catarct near Elephantine but it gets called Nubia too except for Egypt and the Levant (Meggido) when under its control. If so, southern Nubia (more or less all Meroe's territory) is south or upNile from Upper Nubia, 2nd to 4th cataract (Kerma - Napata).Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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If so, southern Nubia (more or less all Meroe's territory) is south or upNile from Upper Nubia, 2nd to 4th cataract (Kerma - Napata).
There are those who can see no Nubia before the 4th century Noba take the stage and the word Nubia from Roman us of Nobatae (spelled a lot like Napata though far away from it).
So we come to Christian Nubia with Alwa south at the 6th cataract, Makuria in the Dongola Reach, and Nabatia 2nd to 1st cataracts.
Christian Makuri under Kalydosos whipped the Arabs forcing them to halt and come no closer south after they overan Egypt while spreading Islam near the 7th century's end.
Since then and up to the 14th century Arabs filtered in as "peaceful" traders and immigrants but it was a scimitar-less slow conquest via a half millennium long proselyting jihad.
In the middle of the 8th century the Makurian "King of Kings" Cyriacus invaded up to Lower Egypt ending Arab persecutions against the Copts their Christian co-religionists.
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posted
In the middle of the 8th century the Makurian "King of Kings" Cyriacus invaded up to Lower Egypt ending Arab persecutions against the Copts their Christian co-religionists.
Nubia as an African bred and born polity was finished when the 16th century came in. After that "Arab" identity became the in thing after Arabian refugee influx in the wake of inter- Arab conflicts on the peninsula.
This was implemented upon Shakandu's treachery and enlistment of Arab aid to secure his usurpation of Makuria's throne. The same for Amai. Arabs of the numerous banu Kanz dominated Lower Nubia while the Guhayna Arabs dominated Upper Nubia.
The Shilluk Funj kingdom arose and Amara Dunqas held southern Nubia in the face of a confederated Arab onslaught. They did, however, eventually become Muslim. Funj government traded hands between Arabs and "Hamaji," as the Arabs dubbed Funj's unmixed blacks until the murderous Turk Muhammad Ali of the 19th century.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:So a question. Are modern day Sudanese muslims REALLY arab as they say? Or are they simply brain-washed arabized Africans?
What the ????
quote:So a question. Are modern day Ethiopian Falashas and Christians Amharics REALLY Semitic as they say? Or are they simply brain-washed "Semitized" Africans?
funny better questionare modern-day african americans REALLY americans and africans simultaneously. Or are they simply in the same status before the emancipation proclamation. i ask because when freeing slaves there must be a deed or word of mouth between the two contractors that says so. anybody and thing can be emancipated but it does not necessarily mean freedom of goods but it would mean a transfer of product from one owner to another.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
alTakruri answer is correct. another little unknown fact or not to known is that there were a short live nubian kingdom in the shendi region of meroe in lastinf from 1600 something a.d. to the 1700's. these nubains rebel for a short time but the funj took over again.
the mahdi in sudan was a nubian,so this short lived islamic nubian kingdom lasted until they were conqured by the british.
there were other nubian areas in the sudan but not has large has the nile valley nubian kingdoms. the smaller nubian kindoms like the hill nubians along with other nuba remain free.i think ther was a free nubian kingdom too toward to the eastern sudan,but i do not know how long it lasted.
and it seems the alwan nubians were free partly or semi autonomous but never gain a fully free nubian kingom again except for the short live nubian kingdom of shendi and maybe toward the eastern sudan and they became islamic.
quote- Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
there are three movies about this period.I SEEN the first two.
you could rent or see them on youtube or look for in on the web somewhere.
Khartoum (film) Starring, Laurence Olivier · Charlton Heston ... Charlton Heston (right) as Gordon with Richard Johnson (left) as Colonel J.D.H. Stewart ... along with the entire garrison and populace, though the Mahdi had forbidden killing Gordon. ...
Laurence Olivier plays the Mahdi ,yeah he plays a black man.
the other one is The Four Feathers (2002)- The Four Feathers (1939) -
posted
Directed by Basil Dearden, Eliot Elisofon. Starring Charlton Heston, Laurence Olivier. Khartoum: blackface Olivier scrapes the bottom of some macabre barrels 12 November 2009 12:54 AM, PST | The Guardian - Film News ...
Directed by Shekhar Kapur. Starring Wes Bentley, James Cosmo, Djimon Hounsou. A British officer resigns his post just before battle and subsequently receives four white feathers from his friends and fiancee as symbols ...
The Four Feathers: Heath Ledger, Wes Bentley, Kate Hudson
posted
One more thing here is some info on the what has happen in sudan.
There seems to be two types of black arabs in the sudan.all are really arabized nubians but vary in degree in arabization.
One group see themselves only has arabs,the other see themselves has arab first but will admit a nubian background too i guess,so these world be arab-nubians but they has a whole will see themselves arab first,that's why they are still called arabs.I think a few in the arab nubian group do see themselves nubian again first or only nubian but their numbers are not large enough yet to create another group of arabized nubians that call themselves nubians first.
Maybe in the future thier numbers will increase to do so,but they would have to speak up and change their profile in sudan so the world would know and it will show up in the future census. There are other arabized nubians in sudan and egypt,but the difference is that the ones in sudan will see themselves has nubian first and alot of them still have the nubian culture and language.
The arabized nubians in egypt are nubian but only nubian in political-territorial rather than an ethnic-linguistic sense.so they are arab nubians but are considered nubians first,well at least now they do.
Got the info from a old book and it's abit outdated but gives good insight on some nubian groups, but i guess this deals with this group of nubians in both egypt and sudan
quote- The dongolaw nubians are nubian but only in speech today,in all other respects they are as thoroughly arabized as thier cousins,the shaiqiya and jaaliyin and they generally deny a nubian identity and history. __________________________________________________ Now i do not know in recent times if most or all dongolaw nubians change thier views or they got back more of their nubian culture,but this is info that i got from a older source.I have to read more update studies about them.
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posted
What we see over millennia of history in the Nile Valley is a steady influx of Semitic speakers who from the start concentrated in Delta Lower Egypt precipitating ever southward marrying with Nile indigenees whose mixed progency, and themselves, acquire rulership over the Nile Valley and usurp the identity of "true" Egyptian.
Whether symbolic or real Narmer fought them and limited their entry. Other pharaohs did so, the most notable ones were (part) Nehesi and birthed the Middle and New Kingdoms.
Napata stepped in to set things right for Egypt. Meroe blocked north Mediterranean conquests. Makaria barred mass Arab entry into Nubia and Makaria stepped in to set things right for Egypt.
Alwa's reaction to Arabs seems similar to Late Period Egypt's reaction to Persian designs and Funj went the way of the centuries long toll on Egypt where Semitic speakers precipitating ever southward marrying with Nile indigenees as they or their mixed progency acquire rulership over the Nile Valley or over the minds of the rulers of the Nile Valley.
Today we see another bastion of wholly indigenous ancestry stem off largely indigenous ancestored Semitic speakers' aggression and draw another Nile Valley indigenee border as they establish the nation of South Sudan.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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