from the " tomb of Tyanen (an Egyptian officer (d. 1410 B.C.)"
There is no evidence that these figures are not Egyptians. -complete speculation
Scott T. Carroll assitant professor, Dept of History, Gordon College wrote an essay called Wrestling In Ancient Nubia
in it he states:
The earliest portrayal of Nubian wrestlers is found on a wall painting from thetomb of Tyanen, an Egyptian officer (d. 1410 B.C.)4 (See Figure 1). The picture shows five men marching together, with the last man carrying a standard which has two wrestlers on it. All but one of the men have Nubian physical characteristics. The contrast between the Nubian wrestlers’ girth and the trim Egyptian, is pronounced
This commentary is nonsense and does not prove any of the above figures were not Egyptian.
Below is a relief carving of Nubian wrestlers:
As you can see:
1) they are slim, without much "girth"
2) the characteristic hoop earring is shown
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posted
The above figures certainly look like regular Egyptians, despire their stockyness. They appear to be stick-fighters as well as wrestlers, the sort of thing that is also seen elsewhere in Africa, such as the Nguni. It would probably pay to have a bit of natural padding in that profession.
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posted
However this similar item at the Metropolitan Museum is similar to the wrestlers and from the same Tomb and labeled "Nubians" so maybe they are Nubians and so are the wrestlers but don't have darker individuals alternating like some other paintings of Nubians. The wrestlers have lepard looking head and netting but that alone doesn't prove they are Nubian. Also look at the difference in the stone relief in the first post.
Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965) Period: New Kingdom Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Reign: reign of Thutmose IV
I find little written on the Tomb of Tjeneny just a black and white version of this picture in this book
Egyptian Wall Paintings: The Metropolitan Museum of Art's Collection of ... edited by Charles Kyrle Wilkinson,
A Nubian Princess in her ox-chariot, from the Egyptian tomb of Huy, 1320 BC
______________________^ Here is a Nubian with a feather, the position projecting from the top of the head, sometimes in other scenes up and backward a bit.
Yet in the scene Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny at the top of the post the feathers are going forward and there may be a second feather that would be hidden from view on these figures. You can see a second feather on the leftmost soldier and the antennae-like spread position is just like the Libyans. No sidelock hai however. Also like the wrestlers they have no earring which you usually see on Nubians. I'm still not sure who they really are
The various Nubians, Kusihites, Medjay, Inttu, Irem etc, I don't know if their look fits into one of the groups in particuar. Maybe they are Nubian nationals of Egypt ?
^notice feather positions and compare to Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny at top of post
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Egyptian Wall Paintings: The Metropolitan Museum of Art's Collection of ... edited by Charles Kyrle Wilkinson,
Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny
Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965) Period: New Kingdom Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Reign: reign of Thutmose IV
I find little written on the Tomb of Tjeneny just a black and white version of this picture in this book
However this similar item at the Metropolitan Museum is similar to the wrestlers and from the same Tomb and labeled "Nubians" so maybe they are Nubians and so are the wrestlers but don't have darker individuals alternating like some other paintings of Nubians.
There are also paintings of Egyptians in alternating complexion as well, twit. How is alternating complexion proof of Nubians??
quote:The wrestlers have leopard looking head and netting but that alone doesn't prove they are Nubian. Also look at the difference in the stone relief in the first post.
I think you mean leopard tails and that is exactly the reason why they are considered Nubians because no Egyptian men are portrayed with leopard tails.
quote: A Nubian Princess in her ox-chariot, from the Egyptian tomb of Huy, 1320 BC
______________________^ Here is a Nubian with a feather, the position projecting from the top of the head, sometimes in other scenes up and backward a bit.
Yet in the scene Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny at the top of the post the feathers are going forward and there may be a second feather that would be hidden from view on these figures. You can see a second feather on the leftmost soldier and the antennae-like spread position is just like the Libyans. No sidelock hair however. Also like the wrestlers they have no earring which you usually see on Nubians. I'm still not sure who they really are
The various Nubians, Kushites, Medjay, Inttu, Irem etc, I don't know if their look fits into one of the groups in particuar. Maybe they are Nubian nationals of Egypt ?
^notice feather positions and compare to Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny at top of post
First of all 'Nubians' is the modern translation of the Egyptian word nhsw which is a generic term that includes Kushites, Medjay, Intiu, Irem, and others. The princess in the chariot is Kushite and adopted into the pharaoh's household as per the New Kingdom policy of Nubian conquest and assimilation. Secondly, there are many ethnic identifying features to different groups. It's not as simple as saying whether individuals wore feathers or not or had earrings or not. The Egyptians also wore feathers on their head especially on special occasions and they also wore earrings! Thirdly, to add more complexity to the situation, it wasn't just Nubian groups to the south and Libyan groups to the north but also Oasis dwellers to the west and desert nomads to the east adjacent to the Nile Valley respectively.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^^ look at this Troll. He comes back from vacation, says I make bad lying threads with an agenda yet the first things he does when he gets back is bump up two of my threads which have been inactive for weeks. To lame to make his own thread. He and ironlion are obsessed with me competing for attention
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ blah...blah...baaaa...baaa He and ironlion are obsessed with me competing for attention
So, Haney, you still waan Muur a dis?
Black Roman Champion
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If these guys w/t wrestler ensign are "Nubians" where are their wrist bracelets as shown in other AE art that textually labels Nehesi or a particular Nehesi ethnic group and are still worn by Sudani wrestlers today?
Only the tail, which does appear in art of Egyptians of Nehesi antecedents, allows for a "Nubian" supposed identity. Is that really enough? I mean we have Egyptians in one Book of Gates edition dressed entirely like "Nubians" and even colored soot black.
See if you can GOOGLE the above img, I couldn't. Just knew it was on ESR where Sahel Siptah asked for it to be archived.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
^ Precisely my point. It can be more difficult than is realized to ascertain the 'difference' between kemnuwet and nehesi.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ look at this Troll. He comes back from vacation, says I make bad lying threads with an agenda yet the first things he does when he gets back is bump up two of my threads which have been inactive for weeks. To lame to make his own thread. He and ironlion are obsessed with me competing for attention
No twit. I got plenty of more relevant threads to make which I will do so. My point is YOU are the troll creating threads questioning things that don't jive with your agenda. We vets as Egyptsearch know this. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Precisely my point. It can be more difficult than is realized to ascertain the 'difference' between kemnuwet and nehesi.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ look at this Troll. He comes back from vacation, says I make bad lying threads with an agenda yet the first things he does when he gets back is bump up two of my threads which have been inactive for weeks. To lame to make his own thread. He and ironlion are obsessed with me competing for attention
No twit. I got plenty of more relevant threads to make which I will do so. My point is YOU are the troll creating threads questioning things that don't jive with your agenda. We vets as Egyptsearch know this.
hypocrite keeps bumping my threads up, no threads of his own, follows me around like lame puppy
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The History of Art and Architecture presents a lecture by Dr. Sinclair Bell, professor at Northern Illinois University.
How did ancient Romans understand other peoples, especially Africans? This talk surveys the evidence of Roman literature, inscriptions and especially works of art, including unpublished material from current excavations. Dr. Bell investigates the creative forms of artistic expression that Africans inspired across the empire, and suggests some possible motives for their creation.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Precisely my point. It can be more difficult than is realized to ascertain the 'difference' between kemnuwet and nehesi.
Not to mention that even if there did exist artistic conventions differentiating the two peoples, those may not necessarily reflect how they actually contrasted in real history, even when it comes to skin color.
quote:This banner celebrates the achievements of King Glele (1858-98) of Dahomey, in particular his victory over the neighbouring Yoruba people after a protracted campaign. The central figure depicts Glele in the guise of a number of the gods (vodun) in the Fon pantheon. Around him are warriors, clothed and carrying sabres with iron blades (hwi), engaged in combat with the Yoruba who are shown half-naked and armed with wooden clubs: the confrontation is clearly between 'civilization' and its opposite.
Mawu-Lisa, the creator god, is both moon and sun, woman and man; likewise the god Daghesu may appear as a ram-headed, heavily armed male or a one-legged female with a cockerel's comb on her head to symbolize sunrise, and images of the moon and sun in her hands. Hevioso, the thunder and water pantheon, is represented in material form by the royal axe, recade, which has a blade issuing from its mouth. All these attributes and characteristics are incorporated in the central figure. Life-size wooden versions of this figure are known to have been made and carried into battle at the head of the Dahomean army, or to have stood close to the king in his palace at Abomey.
The banner may have fulfilled a similar role. King Glele had this banner made to celebrate his reign, in particular his victory in war against the Yoruba. In the centre is Glele himself in the form of a god, holding the sun and moon in his hands. Around him are the warriors fighting. His people, the Fon, are shown wearing clothes and carrying swords, while the Yoruba are shown half-dressed and carrying clubs. This is King Glele's way of saying that the Fon were more advanced and clever than their enemies.
Here you have another example of one Black African people (the Fon of Dahomey) coloring their own people red while representing other Africans as literally black-colored. Of course in real life both Fon and Yoruba people have similar skin colors and would be classified as black people by even the most diehard whitewashers, so we can write off this color convention as unrealistic and perhaps symbolic.
Might we make similar interpretations of Egyptian and Nubian paintings?
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^ They probably did, but I wonder if some of those fashion models might have used skin bleaching cream (or alternatively were lightened up in some image-editing software).
so we've solved the problem, the figures purported to be Nubian wrestlers are actually Nigerian chicks /close thread
Posts: 42938 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ They probably did, but I wonder if some of those fashion models might have used skin bleaching cream (or alternatively were lightened up in some image-editing software).
Possibly, but not that much.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ They probably did, but I wonder if some of those fashion models might have used skin bleaching cream (or alternatively were lightened up in some image-editing software).
posted
Disingenuous lyinass complaints aside, Truth is correct that skin-bleaching as well as admixture from Euro-colonialists has lightened up relatively few West Africans, yet that does not change the fact that there are a range of complexions of black people. Getting back to Truth's point, I again should point out how the color conventions or schemes in Egyptian art can and do indeed obfuscate actual color of people hence the yellow depiction of women, even if the woman hails from southern Upper Egypt and is much darker than her northern Lower Egyptian husband who is portrayed as reddish-brown. Such disparity among the portrayal of sexes among Egyptians themselves should be enough to question how realistic the differences are between Egyptians and foreigners who are close neighbors or even relatives of the Egyptians themselves.
I recently got through reading the book Genesis of the Pharaohs by Wilkinson which talked about ancestral origins in the Eastern Desert among semi-nomads. That said, I'm really curious as to how the Egyptians portray the remaining nomads of these areas who did not assimilate into the Egyptian state.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No complexion cream involved here at all. See the young lovely's legs knees and feet?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Egyptian Wall Paintings: The Metropolitan Museum of Art's Collection of ... edited by Charles Kyrle Wilkinson,
Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny
Nina de Garis Davies (1881–1965) Period: New Kingdom Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Reign: reign of Thutmose IV
I find little written on the Tomb of Tjeneny just a black and white version of this picture in this book
However this similar item at the Metropolitan Museum is similar to the wrestlers and from the same Tomb and labeled "Nubians" so maybe they are Nubians and so are the wrestlers but don't have darker individuals alternating like some other paintings of Nubians.
There are also paintings of Egyptians in alternating complexion as well, twit. How is alternating complexion proof of Nubians??
quote:The wrestlers have leopard looking head and netting but that alone doesn't prove they are Nubian. Also look at the difference in the stone relief in the first post.
I think you mean leopard tails and that is exactly the reason why they are considered Nubians because no Egyptian men are portrayed with leopard tails.
quote: A Nubian Princess in her ox-chariot, from the Egyptian tomb of Huy, 1320 BC
______________________^ Here is a Nubian with a feather, the position projecting from the top of the head, sometimes in other scenes up and backward a bit.
Yet in the scene Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny at the top of the post the feathers are going forward and there may be a second feather that would be hidden from view on these figures. You can see a second feather on the leftmost soldier and the antennae-like spread position is just like the Libyans. No sidelock hair however. Also like the wrestlers they have no earring which you usually see on Nubians. I'm still not sure who they really are
The various Nubians, Kushites, Medjay, Inttu, Irem etc, I don't know if their look fits into one of the groups in particuar. Maybe they are Nubian nationals of Egypt ?
^notice feather positions and compare to Nubian Soldiers, Tomb of Tjeneny at top of post
First of all 'Nubians' is the modern translation of the Egyptian word nhsw which is a generic term that includes Kushites, Medjay, Intiu, Irem, and others. The princess in the chariot is Kushite and adopted into the pharaoh's household as per the New Kingdom policy of Nubian conquest and assimilation. Secondly, there are many ethnic identifying features to different groups. It's not as simple as saying whether individuals wore feathers or not or had earrings or not. The Egyptians also wore feathers on their head especially on special occasions and they also wore earrings! Thirdly, to add more complexity to the situation, it wasn't just Nubian groups to the south and Libyan groups to the north but also Oasis dwellers to the west and desert nomads to the east adjacent to the Nile Valley respectively. [/QUOTE]
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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