...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » More Moors/Blacks in North Africa Artwork

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: More Moors/Blacks in North Africa Artwork
King_Scorpion
Member
Member # 4818

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for King_Scorpion     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jour de Fete - Odette Bruneau
 -

Portrait of an Arab Woman - Frederico Bartolini
 -

An Eastern Coffee House - Charles Bargue
 -

José Tapiró Baró
 -

Portrait of a Black Dignitary - Jean-Baptiste Van Mour
 -

The Arab Hunter - George Seymour
 -

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white. Some artists liked painting nude portraits of Harem women and some liked painting blacks more than others clearly. If the artist has one portrait of someone black, they'll usually paint another.

Arabic Man with Turban - Gyula Tornai
 -

Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white.

This is true. However "white" and "black" are not the only categories of human being.
It is ridiculous for certain individuals in this forum who think they are afrocentrists to use Orientalist European art to try to prove something. Orientalism in European art has many distortions and fanciful agendas. It was designed to titlate their patrons in various ways, racially, sexually, misogynistically, shaped by the attitudes of European imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Obviously the title of this thread could have been better.
This is not "In North Africa Artwork" at all.
What it is is:

Moor/Blacks in European Orientalist Artwork

^^^^^ I think this is what you meant rather than "North African Artwork"


Looking again at the terms "black" and "white" we look at this man:
 -


Should we call him a derivative term like "mixed" or "mulatto" ??

That's still referring to "black" and "white".

If we look at a Chinese person all of the sudden color based terminology becomes irrelevant.
Chinese people for instance don't call themselves "yellow" and the term is considered inappropriate these days.
They are not called "mixed" or "mulatto" either.

The person above is a Palestinian, his skin happens to be brown.
Many Arabs look this way. They need not be forced into "black" or "white" dualistic either/or categories or a term that implies a mix of black and white.
Accurately their skin is brown, and anyway, a literal mix of black and white result in gray.
Do we call them grays? No that would be silly.
How about not using skin color as the primary identifier?

quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white.

But also when you look at a given artist's work the same artist often portrays Arabs in different ways in different paintings.
This reflects a reality that they did a lot of mingling with various ethnicities yet the traditional maternal ancestral line maintains the "Arab" lineage.
In fact even this lineage itself is traditonally comprised of two groups Northern Arabs, Adnani and Southern Arabs, Qahtanis.
These are two different tribes each differing genetically yet both accepted as Arabs by the Arabs themselves.
This does not translate to "black" or "white" either. It further complicates the etnnicity of the "Arab" and all througout their history, from this point, right from the beginning had no problem with intermarrying with all sorts of etnicities they came into contact with. They were into sampling a lot of "flavor"
.

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sero
Member
Member # 19290

Rate Member
Icon 14 posted      Profile for sero     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Arabs with their albino Turk cousins.
 -

Posts: 83 | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IronLion
Member
Member # 16412

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for IronLion     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
oooh, shut down that whinny Cagotic ass of your Liarness!

Scorpion, Muur pictures please. Thanks!

Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King_Scorpion
Member
Member # 4818

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for King_Scorpion     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white.

This is true. However "white" and "black" are not the only categories of human being.
It is ridiculous for certain individuals in this forum who think they are afrocentrists to use Orientalist European art to try to prove something. Orientalism in European art has many distortions and fanciful agendas. It was designed to titlate their patrons in various ways, racially, sexually, misogynistically, shaped by the attitudes of European imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Obviously the title of this thread could have been better.
This is not "In North Africa Artwork" at all.
What it is is:

Moor/Blacks in European Orientalist Artwork

^^^^^ I think this is what you meant rather than "North African Artwork"


Looking again at the terms "black" and "white" we look at this man:
 -


Should we call him a derivative term like "mixed" or "mulatto" ??

That's still referring to "black" and "white".

If we look at a Chinese person all of the sudden color based terminology becomes irrelevant.
Chinese people for instance don't call themselves "yellow" and the term is considered inappropriate these days.
They are not called "mixed" or "mulatto" either.

The person above is a Palestinian, his skin happens to be brown.
Many Arabs look this way. They need not be forced into "black" or "white" dualistic either/or categories or a term that implies a mix of black and white.
Accurately their skin is brown, and anyway, a literal mix of black and white result in gray.
Do we call them grays? No that would be silly.
How about not using skin color as the primary identifier?

quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white.

But also when you look at a given artist's work the same artist often portrays Arabs in different ways in different paintings.
This reflects a reality that they did a lot of mingling with various ethnicities yet the traditional maternal ancestral line maintains the "Arab" lineage.
In fact even this lineage itself is traditonally comprised of two groups Northern Arabs, Adnani and Southern Arabs, Qahtanis.
These are two different tribes each differing genetically yet both accepted as Arabs by the Arabs themselves.
This does not translate to "black" or "white" either. It further complicates the etnnicity of the "Arab" and all througout their history, from this point, right from the beginning had no problem with intermarrying with all sorts of etnicities they came into contact with. They were into sampling a lot of "flavor"
.

I agreed with you until you said it's wrong to use Orientalist artwork. Orientalism does tell us something about perception at the time. It tells us that at one time it may not have been strange or wrong to depict an Arab man as black...something that isn't done today. And if you acknowledge that there were black Arabs, even black Arabs of dignity and prestige and not slaves then that's a very powerful statement from the past indeed. These aren't just fanciful portraits of a European class intrigued by the "exotic" Near East. What we have here are real scenes of a time before Western cultural influence when these Islamic societies were still very much independent and maintaining their traditional appearances and most importantly, when blacks were not walked upon by everybody.

That's the problem with depicting everything in African history, especially in the Orient/North Africa as a story of slaves. Yes, there were black slaves...but there were also MANY white slaves as well. At the same time that there were powerful blacks who had both black and white slaves. The story is much more complex than it has been traditionally presented post-Orientalism.

Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I agreed with you until you said it's wrong to use Orientalist artwork. Orientalism does tell us something about perception at the time. It tells us that at one time it may not have been strange or wrong to depict an Arab man as black...something that isn't done today. And if you acknowledge that there were black Arabs, even black Arabs of dignity and prestige and not slaves then that's a very powerful statement from the past indeed. These aren't just fanciful portraits of a European class intrigued by the "exotic" Near East. What we have here are real scenes of a time before Western cultural influence when these Islamic societies were still very much independent and maintaining their traditional appearances and most importantly, when blacks were not walked upon by everybody.

That's the problem with depicting everything in African history, especially in the Orient/North Africa as a story of slaves. Yes, there were black slaves...but there were also MANY white slaves as well. At the same time that there were powerful blacks who had both black and white slaves. The story is much more complex than it has been traditionally presented post-Orientalism. [/QB]

Your point is good.
I think the European perspective at this time, in many of these paintings, is that to be an Arab is not a racial type, it's to be a part of the Arabian culture.
and I mean not as a slave.

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IronLion
Member
Member # 16412

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for IronLion     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
I agreed with you until you said it's wrong to use Orientalist artwork. Orientalism does tell us something about perception at the time. It tells us that at one time it may not have been strange or wrong to depict an Arab man as black...something that isn't done today. And if you acknowledge that there were black Arabs, even black Arabs of dignity and prestige and not slaves then that's a very powerful statement from the past indeed. These aren't just fanciful portraits of a European class intrigued by the "exotic" Near East. What we have here are real scenes of a time before Western cultural influence when these Islamic societies were still very much independent and maintaining their traditional appearances and most importantly, when blacks were not walked upon by everybody.

That's the problem with depicting everything in African history, especially in the Orient/North Africa as a story of slaves. Yes, there were black slaves...but there were also MANY white slaves as well. At the same time that there were powerful blacks who had both black and white slaves. The story is much more complex than it has been traditionally presented post-Orientalism.

Your point is good.
I think the European perspective at this time, in many of these paintings, is that to be an Arab is not a racial type, it's to be a part of the Arabian culture.
and I mean not as a slave. [/QB]

Your mulatto mind is enslaved by your jew boyfriends.. [Big Grin]
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fellati achawi
Member
Member # 12885

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for fellati achawi     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Quote from the European Crusader Roland about arab armies
quote:
Ethiope, a cursed land indeed; the blackamoors from there are in his keep, Broad in the nose they are and flat in ear, Fifty thousand and more in his company When Roland sees that unbelieving race, those hordes and hordes blacker than the blackest ink - no shred of white on them except their teeth"


--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alurubenson:
Quote from the European Crusader Roland about arab armies
quote:
Ethiope, a cursed land indeed; the blackamoors from there are in his keep, Broad in the nose they are and flat in ear, Fifty thousand and more in his company When Roland sees that unbelieving race, those hordes and hordes blacker than the blackest ink - no shred of white on them except their teeth"

The Moors weren't Arabs. The Arabs conquered North Africa.
Moors in large numbers accepted Arabic as the national language and Islam. Tarik raideded Spain. His troops consisted of 300 Arabs and 6,700 native Africans (Moors). In 756, Al-Andulus proclaimed itself an independent state. Thus, its only links to the Arabs would be the Islamic faith and the Arabic language.

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fellati achawi
Member
Member # 12885

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for fellati achawi     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Moors weren't Arabs. The Arabs conquered North Africa.
Moors in large numbers accepted Arabic as the national language and Islam. Tarik raideded Spain. His troops consisted of 300 Arabs and 6,700 native Africans (Moors). In 756, Al-Andulus proclaimed itself an independent state. Thus, its only links to the Arabs would be the Islamic faith and the Arabic language.

during the time they were conquering who would care about the above statement? whether they identified with berbers or arabs they were conquering. do you make a distinction between who was anglo-saxon and who was irish in the united states? The christian crusader saw them as a race just as they do now.

--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Selassie der könig
Junior Member
Member # 19572

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Selassie der könig     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by alurubenson:
Quote from the European Crusader Roland about arab armies
quote:
Ethiope, a cursed land indeed; the blackamoors from there are in his keep, Broad in the nose they are and flat in ear, Fifty thousand and more in his company When Roland sees that unbelieving race, those hordes and hordes blacker than the blackest ink - no shred of white on them except their teeth"

The Moors weren't Arabs. The Arabs conquered North Africa.
Moors in large numbers accepted Arabic as the national language and Islam. Tarik raideded Spain. His troops consisted of 300 Arabs and 6,700 native Africans (Moors). In 756, Al-Andulus proclaimed itself an independent state. Thus, its only links to the Arabs would be the Islamic faith and the Arabic language.

I believe there were a large number of Arabs during the inital invasion by the Ummayads. But as to all Muslim invaders of Spain history makes no distinction. They are all called Moors. The later Almoravids and Almohads were paractically all African however.
Posts: 4 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Selassie look at this thread:


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005374;p=1

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Explorador
Member
Member # 14778

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Explorador   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Selassie,

West African Moors would have invaded the Iberian peninsula and sought to rule it, even if the Ummayads had not. They had attempted to do so, long before the Ummayads.

Do you have any documentation of pre-11th century Spanish references to Ummayads and Arabs from the Arabian plate as "Moors"?

Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
melchior7
Member
Member # 18960

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for melchior7     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is about the Hassaniyya speaking Moors of Morocco. Lol!

"A White Moor is ethnologically defined as "a nomad of Berber-Arab origin." They represent the two upper classes of Moorish society: the 'adma (nobility) and the lahma (commoners). The 'adma is further sub-divided into two groups: the hassan and the zawya (warriors and religious leaders). The responsibility of the warriors is to protect the religious leaders. In turn, the religious leaders provide moral, spiritual, legal, and political services for their protectors; instruct their children; minister to their sick and wounded; act as intercessors between God and man; chase away evil spirits; prevent curses; and settle disputes. In this way, the hassan and the zawya benefit each other.

The lahma (commoners) are also grouped into classes which act as servants to either the warriors or the religious leaders. The lahma are only allowed to marry within their own social class. Some of the lahma may be warriors or religious leaders; however, modern governmental orders to disarm have led most of them to become monks or nuns.

The Black Moors make up the lower classes of Moorish society. They live in a world of their own, usually one of slavery. There are two types of Black Moors: the 'abd-le-tilad (those slaves who belong to the tents and are part of the family), and the 'abd-le-tarbiya (acquired slaves). Even though slavery is now against the law, it continues to be a fundamental part of the social and economic structure of the Moors."

http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?rop3=106417&rog3=MO

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 10 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ LOL Modern DISTORTIONS of the term 'Moor' cannot change its etymology i.e. origins!

 -

St. Maurice

Maurice was an officer of the Theban Legion of Emperor Maximian Herculius' army, which was composed of Christians from Upper Egypt. He and his fellow legionnaires refused to sacrifice to the gods as ordered by the Emperor to insure victory over rebelling Bagaudae. When they refused to obey repeated orders to do so and withdrew from the army encamped at Octodurum (Martigny) near Lake Geneva to Agaunum (St. Maurice-en-Valais), Maximian had the entire Legion of over six thousand men put to death. To the end they were encouraged in their constancy by Maurice and two fellow officers, Exuperius and Candidus. Also executed was Victor (October 10th), who refused to accept any of the belongings of the dead soldiers. In a follow-up action, other Christians put to death were Ursus and another Victor at Solothurin (September 30th); Alexander at Bergamo; Octavius, Innocent, Adventor, and Solutar at Turin; and Gereon (October 10th) at Cologne. Their story was told by St. Eucherius, who became Bishop of Lyons about 434, but scholars doubt that an entire Legion was massacred; but there is no doubt that Maurice and some of his comrades did suffer martyrdom at Agaunum. Feast day - September 22nd.


St. Maurice
 -
 -

And...

Duke Alessandro de' Medici

Both of the objects highlighted here feature Alessandro de' Medici (1511-37), the first Duke of Florence. It is thought that Alessandro's mother was a Moorish slave.

The Medici, an Italian family of merchants, bankers, rulers, patrons and collectors, dominated the political and cultural life of Florence from the 15th century to the mid 18th century. They were expelled from Florence in 1494-1512 and 1527-30. In 1530, after a long and bitter siege, the army of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V conquered the city and backed the installment of Alessandro de' Medici as the first Duke of Florence. Alessandro's reign ended in 1537, when he was assassinated by his cousin and rival Lorenzino de' Medici. As he had no children with his wife (Margaret of Austria, illegitimate daughter of the emperor Charles V), and his illegitimate son Giulio was only four years old, Alessandro was succeeded by a member of another branch of the Medici family, Cosimo I.

Officially, Alessandro was the illegitimate son of Lorenzo de' Medici, Duke of Urbino (1492-1519), but it was rumoured that Lorenzo's cousin Giulio (later Pope Clement VII), had fathered him. Alessandro's mother, Simonetta, was allegedly a Moorish slave who had worked in the household of Lorenzo and his parents during their exile in Rome.

Although Alessandro's paternity was disputed, contemporaries acknowledged his maternal ancestry, even nicknaming him 'Il Moro', the Moor. This term was (and is still) used in Italy to describe Africans and also Europeans with dark complexions or hair. But contemporary references to Alessandro's dark skin, curly hair, wide nose and thick lips, as well as visual evidence from surviving portraits, suggest that he was indeed of mixed heritage.


The slave status and possible African origin of Alessandro's mother are not surprising. Black Africans had been imported into Europe as slaves since 1440 onwards, when the Portuguese opened a new trade route between Mediterranean Europe and the west coast of sub-Saharan Africa. Many Italians, often from the maritime republics of Genoa and Venice, were involved in the trade, and in the 1460s there developed a fashion for using black African female slaves for domestic labour. These slaves were seen as symbols of status but also of the exotic new lands that were then being discovered.

Sometimes, there were sexual relations between female slaves and their masters or other freedmen. Florentine statutes of 1415 granted children born of such unions the free legal status of the father. However, Roman law, which applied across much of the Italian peninsula, stated that the legal status of a child followed that of its mother. Female slaves were therefore often freed by their masters so that their children would be free. After Alessandro's birth in Urbino, Simonetta was freed and moved to Colle Vecchio, near Rome, where she lived with her husband Lostensor (whose name may suggest that he was also of African descent) and their two children.

Like many freed Africans in Renaissance Italy, Simonetta lived in poverty. Letters that she wrote to Alessandro in the 1530s, asking for financial aid, reveal a stark contrast between her scanty means and the wealth of her son.

The cameo shown here, possibly made by Alessandro's court medallist and gem-engraver Domenico de' Vetri, bears a profile portrait of the duke, bearded and dressed in the style of a Roman emperor. The choice of green chalcedony may have been intended to represent Alessandro's dark skin and tightly curled hair. During the Renaissance, cameo portraits in the classical tradition were important as emblems of dynastic power. They were highly prized by collectors and were often presented as gifts.

The painting of Alessandro, in which his dark skin and hair is visible, follows an earlier half-length portrait by the Florentine painter Jacopo Pontormo (1494-1556), now in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. The Philadelphia portrait shows Alessandro dressed in mourning for the death of Clement VII and drawing the profile of a woman in silverpoint. It was commissioned in 1534 as a gift for Taddea Malaspina, the mother of two of his illegitimate children, probably in commemoration of the birth of their daughter Giulia.

Alessandro had many enemies among Florentine exiles. They regarded him as a tyrannical despot responsible for depriving republican Florence of its liberty. Seemingly unconcerned with the ethnicity of his mother, they mocked Alessandro for her peasant status, even accusing him of poisoning her to hide his lowly origins. This suggests that people of African or mixed heritage who held positions of power, such as ambassadors and dignitaries, were less likely to be subjected to racial stereotyping than their poor or enslaved counterparts.

As the first of the Medici to be installed as a hereditary ruler of Florence, Alessandro has received surprisingly little study. Historians have criticised his rule for its severity, but contemporaries were more favourable. They commented on his political skills, spontaneous generosity and concern for the poor, as well as his informal style of leadership. Like other members of the Medici dynasty, Alessandro was also a patron of the arts.

His ethnicity has usually been ignored, perhaps because historians were uncomfortable with the fact that Alessandro's descendants married into eminent houses all over Europe. Writers who did acknowledge his mixed heritage judged him harshly, claiming that he was an unprincipled, sexually voracious seducer of aristocratic women. Hopefully, the recent academic interest in Alessandro will lead to an unbiased reassessment of his character, reign and significance in European history.


Alessandro de' Medici
 -  -

Lyingasses and Malcontent losers be damned!

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
melchior7
Member
Member # 18960

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for melchior7     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Most of the Moors weren't Blacks no 18th century paintings can compare to medival depictions from Spain.

 -


On the Right is the famous Moorish admiral Arrendaffe.

 -

And here is a portrait of Bobadil one of the last Moorish rullers of Granada

 -

The Granadan sulatn Muley Hacen

 -

Isn't it funny how all the paintings of Black Moors appear at least 200 years after the Moorish Empire ended and in Countries that never saw any Moorish invasion? Hmmmmmm

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
one thing I have a problem understanding is why Moroccans called the blacks in their countries "Moors" until 100 years ago.

Hmmmm...

Elliot Smith informs us in "Human History,(p. 124, 1919) that in Morocco "...the WORD MOOR IS OFTEN USED TO SUGGEST NEGRO INFLUENCE..."

Now one is expected to believe Moor meant North African or white or yellow Moroccan?!

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
This is about the Hassaniyya speaking Moors of Morocco. Lol!

"A White Moor is ethnologically defined as "a nomad of Berber-Arab origin." They represent the two upper classes of Moorish society: the 'adma (nobility) and the lahma (commoners). The 'adma is further sub-divided into two groups: the hassan and the zawya (warriors and religious leaders). The responsibility of the warriors is to protect the religious leaders. In turn, the religious leaders provide moral, spiritual, legal, and political services for their protectors; instruct their children; minister to their sick and wounded; act as intercessors between God and man; chase away evil spirits; prevent curses; and settle disputes. In this way, the hassan and the zawya benefit each other.

The lahma (commoners) are also grouped into classes which act as servants to either the warriors or the religious leaders. The lahma are only allowed to marry within their own social class. Some of the lahma may be warriors or religious leaders; however, modern governmental orders to disarm have led most of them to become monks or nuns.

The Black Moors make up the lower classes of Moorish society. They live in a world of their own, usually one of slavery. There are two types of Black Moors: the 'abd-le-tilad (those slaves who belong to the tents and are part of the family), and the 'abd-le-tarbiya (acquired slaves). Even though slavery is now against the law, it continues to be a fundamental part of the social and economic structure of the Moors."

http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?rop3=106417&rog3=MO

The word Biyad or Abyad or Beydane among the MOORS i.e. the Trarza and Hassaniyya is A CASTE DESIGNATION!

“Although culturally homogeneous, the Moors are divided among numerous ethno-linguistic clan groups and are distinguished racially as Beydane and Haratine, or White Moors and Black Moors, ALTHOUGH IT OFTEN IS DIFFICULT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS BY SKIN COLOR." from Human Rights Practices: Mauritania, published by the U.S. Department of State. The Report of March 4, 2002



A Moor is a Moor is a Moor - YOU LOSE!


 -
Noble Beydane or "white Moor" of Mauretania

 -
Hassaniyya Moor or Beydane (white Moor)

Please stop spreading white lies about the African people. They have enough problems.


Banu Hassan are derived from mixture of true Arab Hawazin and Sanhaja (Tuareg) peoples

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ LMAO [Big Grin] And there the malcontent's argument falls to pieces as usual!

quote:
Originally posted by malcontent7:

Most of the Moors weren't Blacks no 18th century paintings can compare to medieval depictions from Spain....

Are you illiterate or did you intentionally ignore my previous post?? The painting of Alessandro Medici is ITALIAN and was made during his lifetime in the early 16th century i.e. 1500s. As for the painting of St. Maurice, whatever century the painting was made his even blacker statue at the Magdeburg Cathedral was made in the 10th century. The 16th century Italians and 10th century Germans and other Europeans could not have been mistaken when they obviously identified Moors as black!

As for the Spanish themselves during the Moorish conquest...

An elegiac passage from the thirteenth century Primera cronica general (Chapter 559 General Chronicle of Spain) recounts the events of 711 for what is construed as the (temporary) downfall of “Spain” in that year. The text testifies that
semantic transformation of “Moor” was not nearly as benign as some readers have assumed: their faces were black as pitch, the handsomest among them was black as a cooking pot, and their eyes blazed like fire; their horses swift as leopards, their horsemen more cruel and hurtful than the wolf that comes at night to the flock of sheep. The vile African people… (Smith 1988:19) Here the historiography sponsored by Alphonso X of Castile shares a vocabulary developed across the Pyrenees in the early twelfth-century Chanson de Roland, wherein the Saracen Abisme is stigmatized as brutish on account of his race (“In all that host was none more vile than he, With evil vice and crimes he’s dyed full deep...And black is he as
3 melted pitch to see.
Better he loves murder and treachery Than all the gold that is in Galicie...” (emphasis mine) [Song of Roland, 113; Sayers 1975: 108].


http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/program/neareast/andalusia/pdf/10.pdf

And why Spaniards to this day when portraying Moors wear black face!

 -

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xm
Member
Member # 19601

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for xm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Over Ugg Boots the last few years Uggs have a sham sole, http://uggbootsclearance-ie.net ,while this has the drippy bendable skin of the sheep facing out as it has the woolen part of the skin facing in. The Ugg is unique in the stage of comfort ugg boots sale . http://www.best-uggclearance.com ,It is rather promising to buy baby Uggs and they now come in all UGG boots is made from the name "ugg gumboot" referred to a slightly Australian gumboot made with prices up to or over $500 a brace in some luggage for everyone, http://www.uggboots-outlet-ie.net ,from modest circulation and cold feet. Ugg boots are not only comfortable and thaw, But nowadays with the technology development, http://uggclearance-ugg.net Ugg boots are particularly made by Australia sheepskin, just like to sport Ugg boots, it is the time to splurge money you buy other shoes on the summertime while cordial on the winner time, however, http://www.uggbootsclearance1.us , is really a little costly for me, but I am eager to consume money in them.
Posts: 138 | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
Member
Member # 15718

Icon 1 posted      Profile for zarahan aka Enrique Cardova     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Who were the main Moorish leaders?

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ From my understanding, at first the leaders were Moorish themselves i.e. North African Berbers, however there came more and more Arabo-Syrian influence as the Caliphate invited more mullahs and Arab tribes 'closer to the Prophet'. Hence the reason why Moors became more heterogeneous including non-black types amongst them. Of course the latter is what the malcontent loves to emphasize as he usually does. [Wink]
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Who were the main Moorish leaders?

if u want individual names they are too many to name.
But the early Moorish leaders were of Berber and Arabian of Azd, Rabi'a, Fehr (Kenaana), Hawazin and Sulaym and other African stock. Later they brought in Turks, Persians and Syrians many of whom had originally slave and freedmen status. Some of these also became leaders. The Qays tribes arriving from Syria were most likely also dark like the Arabians and Berbers. The Berbers consisted of all the tribes defined as black by the Syrian writers - Masmuda, Sanhaja, Kitama, Hawara, Zawagha or Azuwagh(Zaghawa), Magherawa, Jarawa/Jawara or Wangara of the Zanata.

If you look up the Muslim rulers of Arabian and Berber stock in Iberia, as opposed to Persian, Turkish or Syrian stock they are bound to have been "Moorish".

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Most of the Moors weren't Blacks no 18th century paintings can compare to medival depictions from Spain.

 -


On the Right is the famous Moorish admiral Arrendaffe.

 -

And here is a portrait of Bobadil one of the last Moorish rullers of Granada

 -

The Granadan sulatn Muley Hacen

 -

Isn't it funny how all the paintings of Black Moors appear at least 200 years after the Moorish Empire ended and in Countries that never saw any Moorish invasion? Hmmmmmm

I am willing to admit that all Muslims were called Moors in Spain by the King of Aragon or anyone else as soon as someone provides evidence of it.

Perhaps it is true and i look forward to learning of the facts.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white.

This is true. However "white" and "black" are not the only categories of human being.
It is ridiculous for certain individuals in this forum who think they are afrocentrists to use Orientalist European art to try to prove something. Orientalism in European art has many distortions and fanciful agendas. It was designed to titlate their patrons in various ways, racially, sexually, misogynistically, shaped by the attitudes of European imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Obviously the title of this thread could have been better.
This is not "In North Africa Artwork" at all.
What it is is:

Moor/Blacks in European Orientalist Artwork

^^^^^ I think this is what you meant rather than "North African Artwork"


Looking again at the terms "black" and "white" we look at this man:
 -


Should we call him a derivative term like "mixed" or "mulatto" ??

That's still referring to "black" and "white".

If we look at a Chinese person all of the sudden color based terminology becomes irrelevant.
Chinese people for instance don't call themselves "yellow" and the term is considered inappropriate these days.
They are not called "mixed" or "mulatto" either.

The person above is a Palestinian, his skin happens to be brown.
Many Arabs look this way. They need not be forced into "black" or "white" dualistic either/or categories or a term that implies a mix of black and white.
Accurately their skin is brown, and anyway, a literal mix of black and white result in gray.
Do we call them grays? No that would be silly.
How about not using skin color as the primary identifier?

quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

There appears to be no uniform depiction of Arabs in Orientalist art. Some artists show them as black, some as white.

But also when you look at a given artist's work the same artist often portrays Arabs in different ways in different paintings.
This reflects a reality that they did a lot of mingling with various ethnicities yet the traditional maternal ancestral line maintains the "Arab" lineage.
In fact even this lineage itself is traditonally comprised of two groups Northern Arabs, Adnani and Southern Arabs, Qahtanis.
These are two different tribes each differing genetically yet both accepted as Arabs by the Arabs themselves.
This does not translate to "black" or "white" either. It further complicates the etnnicity of the "Arab" and all throughout their history, from this point, right from the beginning had no problem with intermarrying with all sorts of etnicities they came into contact with. They were into sampling a lot of "flavor"
.

Now we can definitely state you are either from Sweden as your profile suggested or you are color blind. I don't see an ounce of brown anywhere in this guys face. Just because he isn't the color of an albino or the Moon doesn't make him brown or even yellow for that matter, and especially not in the classical Arabic language . [Frown]

BTW Qahtan and Peleg refer to related lineages from the southern part of Arabia. Both were called black.
Dawasir was called Falaj al Aflaj. Peleg of the land of Peleg.

 -
Wadi Dawasir

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Selassie,

West African Moors would have invaded the Iberian peninsula and sought to rule it, even if the Ummayads had not. They had attempted to do so, long before the Ummayads.

Do you have any documentation of pre-11th century Spanish references to Ummayads and Arabs from the Arabian plate as "Moors"?

The truly relevant question in my mind is how the word Moor came to mean generically the "blacks" or the black men. This we can rest assured was not just due to Berbers but to other African and Afroasiatic groups in particular the Arabians.

The book , Saracens, Demons and Jews: Making Monsters in Medieval Art, contains a quote from from the “Itinerarium Peregrinorum”, a primary source chronicling the English participation in the third crusade in the “Holy Land” in the years between 1189-1192. It speaks of Saracens and one passage from this narrative mentions that amongst the opponents of the crusaders in “the Holy Land” or Syria/Palestine described them as

"...a fiendish race, forceful and relentless, deformed by nature and unlike other living beings, black in color, of enormous stature and inhuman savageness. Instead of helmets they wore red coverings (i.e. turbans) on their heads, brandishing in their hands clubs bristling with iron teeth, whose shattering blows neither helmets nor mailshirts could resist. As a standard they carried a carved effigy of Muhammad" (cited by Wesley Williams, The De-Arabization of Islam and the Transfiguration of Muhammad in Islamic Tradition, 2009, p 2, fn. 4).'

These were no doubt the same people as called Banu Azd - the Arabians from the Hijaz near Medina and Tihama where clans such as Banu Khazraj and Banu Aus are similarly described as tall black or jet black and huge in other Middle Eastern sources.

Needless to say the Azd entered the Iberian peninsula in large numbers in the earliest periods. Large numbers of the Banu Gudham or Judham branch of the Azd were settled in Rayya (Taha, Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain, p.147) while others were in Algeciras, Sidonia, Tudmir, and Calatrava (p. 146).

The Banu Ghassan, Judham and Lakhmids belonged to the Azd. In the 8th century Ghassan, Judham and the Lakhmids are mentioned as revolting with a group of the Qays against another Qays ruler in Cordoba (Levi-Provencal, 1993, First Encyclopedia of Islam "Seville" p. 550).

The 13th century Tunisian Ibn Manzur in Lisaan el Arab volume 1 also said when the Ghassan are spoken of as "akhdar" or "Khudar(literally green)" in texts "their blackness is meant."

The use of the word "akhdar" for black people in north Africa as in Libya is still common (some of the towns like Tawarga attacked by fair-skinned Libyans in the north are called "green". "It is common to hear Misratans making derogatory remarks about Tawarga's black population, coupled with the hope that the population, who fled to southern Libya, will never return." ).

So the idea that blacks never conquered Spain is wrong and the idea that the only blacks that ever settled in Spain were Africans is also inaccurate. The other interesting detail is that many of the early African groups Meghrawa and Jarawa and Berghwata appear to have been Jewish or Judaized until a late period, probably both in Africa and Spain.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The book , Saracens, Demons and Jews: Making Monsters in Medieval Art, contains a quote from from the “Itinerarium Peregrinorum”, a primary source chronicling the English participation in the third crusade in the “Holy Land” in the years between 1189-1192. It speaks of Saracens and one passage from this narrative mentions that amongst the opponents of the crusaders in “the Holy Land” or Syria/Palestine described them as

"...a fiendish race, forceful and relentless, deformed by nature and unlike other living beings, black in color, of enormous stature and inhuman savageness. Instead of helmets they wore red coverings (i.e. turbans) on their heads, brandishing in their hands clubs bristling with iron teeth, whose shattering blows neither helmets nor mailshirts could resist. As a standard they carried a carved effigy of Muhammad" (cited by Wesley Williams, The De-Arabization of Islam and the Transfiguration of Muhammad in Islamic Tradition, 2009, p 2, fn. 4).'

^ I have heard that such European writings during the Crusades helped inspire the author J. R. R. Tolkien in conceiving monsters like the Uruk-hai as well as the human allies of Sauron in his Lord of the Rings books. The demonization of the other especially darker skinned non-Christian peoples was common among Europeans from Medieval times to Imperials times and to some extent today.

Max Dashu wrote about this in Devil-Mongering.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dana marniche
Member
Member # 13149

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for dana marniche   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The book , Saracens, Demons and Jews: Making Monsters in Medieval Art, contains a quote from from the “Itinerarium Peregrinorum”, a primary source chronicling the English participation in the third crusade in the “Holy Land” in the years between 1189-1192. It speaks of Saracens and one passage from this narrative mentions that amongst the opponents of the crusaders in “the Holy Land” or Syria/Palestine described them as

"...a fiendish race, forceful and relentless, deformed by nature and unlike other living beings, black in color, of enormous stature and inhuman savageness. Instead of helmets they wore red coverings (i.e. turbans) on their heads, brandishing in their hands clubs bristling with iron teeth, whose shattering blows neither helmets nor mailshirts could resist. As a standard they carried a carved effigy of Muhammad" (cited by Wesley Williams, The De-Arabization of Islam and the Transfiguration of Muhammad in Islamic Tradition, 2009, p 2, fn. 4).'

^ I have heard that such European writings during the Crusades helped inspire the author J. R. R. Tolkien in conceiving monsters like the Uruk-hai as well as the human allies of Sauron in his Lord of the Rings books. The demonization of the other especially darker skinned non-Christian peoples was common among Europeans from Medieval times to Imperials times and to some extent today.

Max Dashu wrote about this in Devil-Mongering.

Could be as most Saracens were early on depicted as either monstrous and black or simply monstrous. The word urak however is more likely derived from the Araks further east who were a barbaric Scythic tribe also known as Roxalani.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The book , Saracens, Demons and Jews: Making Monsters in Medieval Art, contains a quote from from the “Itinerarium Peregrinorum”, a primary source chronicling the English participation in the third crusade in the “Holy Land” in the years between 1189-1192. It speaks of Saracens and one passage from this narrative mentions that amongst the opponents of the crusaders in “the Holy Land” or Syria/Palestine described them as

"...a fiendish race, forceful and relentless, deformed by nature and unlike other living beings, black in color, of enormous stature and inhuman savageness. Instead of helmets they wore red coverings (i.e. turbans) on their heads, brandishing in their hands clubs bristling with iron teeth, whose shattering blows neither helmets nor mailshirts could resist. As a standard they carried a carved effigy of Muhammad" (cited by Wesley Williams, The De-Arabization of Islam and the Transfiguration of Muhammad in Islamic Tradition, 2009, p 2, fn. 4).'

^ I have heard that such European writings during the Crusades helped inspire the author J. R. R. Tolkien in conceiving monsters like the Uruk-hai as well as the human allies of Sauron in his Lord of the Rings books. The demonization of the other especially darker skinned non-Christian peoples was common among Europeans from Medieval times to Imperials times and to some extent today.

Max Dashu wrote about this in Devil-Mongering.

The demonization of blacks is part of a history of creating a duality in the Christian tradition of "us" versus "them". "Us" is always the good side, the guardians of the "light" or what is right and good. And "them" is always personified as evil or vile and against the "light" or what is right. But because of the physical differences between the phenotypes of Europeans as whites and Africans and others as blacks, there became a physical association between black as dark, mysterious and evil, while white became associated with the light, good and holiness.

Now, none of this is new, as all societies have been practicing some variation of this theme since time immemorial. The religious overtones of Christianity in fact borrowed from the Muslims and Romans. The Muslims called themselves the followers of the light and this is seen in the name Minaret, which means tower of light, borrowing from ancient Babylonian traditions (Samarra towers) and Romans (light houses). Some of it even reflects ancient traditions of Egypt, like Obelisks.

And of course, the Sun, as a symbol of the "light" of creation, consciousness, god and creation is one of the oldest symbols of human spirituality and religion in the world.

But because Christianity proclaimed itself to be the only "true" religion and more importantly, because Christianity was the theological basis for the "authority" given to the rulers of the Holy Roman Empire that became the basis of European monarchy, all pre-Christian peoples and ideas had to be demonized and destroyed. Hence, the Papal Bulls and decrees legalizing slavery and the abduction of foreign lands in the name of the Crown based on "divine" authority. Much of this was inspired by the spread of Islam, where all non believers were considered Infadels and therefore subject to persecution of some form.

Now, the most sinister part of all this is that the reason for the inquisition was to wipe out the pre-Christian traditions of Europe along with the older forms of worship of the black madonna and other traditions which countered Church doctrine. Even as much of the basis of Christian theology itself is based on "pagan" elements from Africa in the first place.

Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:

 -

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche: I don't see an ounce of brown anywhere in this guys face. Just because he isn't the color of an albino or the Moon doesn't make him brown or even yellow for that matter, and especially not in the classical Arabic language .
dana, what color is this guy?

-I'm asking dana, fall back until dana answers it

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
IronLion
Member
Member # 16412

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for IronLion     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^^Pinkish-beige

--------------------
Lionz

Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BEIGE

 -

 -

quote:
Originally posted by IronLion:
^^Pinkish-beige

fixed.


iron, learn your colors

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xm
Member
Member # 19601

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for xm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
UGG http://www.buyuggboots-ie.com is the brand identify for stylish sheepskin boots. Footwear produced from sheepskin have been http://bootsbestclearance.net preferred between the rural people in Australia http://cheap-uggboots-ie.com/ for a long time. http://www.uggboots-outlet-ie.net Steadily, they became a style accessory when their level of popularity http://www.uggsaustralia-sale.net accelerated after they have been worn because of the surfers. At first these boots ended up produced in Australia. Today, the UGG trademark is owned by an cheap ugg boots http://www.uggbootsoutlet-ie.net American business; however these are nevertheless constructed from the Merino sheepskin of Australia. The boots made from sheepskin have been http://www.uggbootsstore-ie.com
popularised by UGG Australia http://www.uggbootsclearance1.us and now the merchandise are distributed during the world.

Posts: 138 | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3