posted
Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?
^Skull excavated in Kerma
Ok, so I've decided to stay away from ES a few months ago, but I have something to share which I think a lot of people will find valuable to have as a confirmation.
I've been suspecting this for ages, but I just didn't have the hard evidence to boldly state it as fact. I had a hard time understanding why we had to look to areas distant from Ancient Egypt to find evidence of straight and wavy haired Africans. I also had a hard time understanding why their cross section index, unlike other (osteological) variables, didn't seem to change over time. For example, the Naqadans had affinity with more southern, Nile Valley Africans, in virtually all measurable respects; Nasal index, Limb length, head size, facial index, prognathism etc.
Studies generally converge on the idea that a change occurred, that morphed the predynastic Egyptian Nubian-like physique, to the coastal North African mean we see already preponderant in some areas in Late Dynastic times.
When those two ends of the spectrum (predynastic. vs Late dynastic) are compared, we get what Zakrezewski reported for the E-series: no continuation, and a staunch break in cranio-metric trends. This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
Even Keita, an avid supporter of the idea that Ancient Northern Sudanese were ethnically the closest to AE's must've felt uncomfortable lookings as far as the distant Kanuri, Fulani and Somali people to explain away the hair type of Predynastic Egyptians. Furthermore, of the populations he mentioned, only Somali hair aproaches the hair characteristics that Strouhal obtained for his Badarian sample.
I always took the absense of Nubians among the populations Keita cited, as an indication that reasonable research into Ancient Nubian hair led him to subscribe to the idea that it really was as whooly/tightly curled as the Egyptians made it out to be in so many of their tomb depictions, so I never bother to research it myself.
Anyway, to make a long story short, yesterday I remembered reading from a book written by Samual Morton (yeah, that pseudoscientist), and decided to dig it up. The information in it led me to do a thorough search on available sources that deal with Nubian hair.
The following is what I found, and wanted to share.
Notes
*In the pages that were available for viewing, there were more mentions of hair that don't talk about hair type. I left those out, because they're not relevant here.
*The text makes questionable references to Egyptic types and ‘’actual’’ Egyptians, you know, same ol, same ol. They also talk about so-called "aliens" (meaning foreigners) among the interred. I took all hair data, regardless of the conjecture that accompanied it, and placed the data in the table, since all of the covered regions are south of Egypt. If you feel that that’s a problem, step up playa. Show me how Elliot Smith were able to distinguish between Egyptian and Northern Sudanese, using their early 20th century crude Methods. *The exact pages from which I lifted the quotes are listed in the table, along with the burial nr.
*There are more quotes that list hair structure in the book, I only took those that were not hidden from view. If you want the remaining quotes, you can dig them up yourself.
*Since I used keywords to locate the citations, I might have missed two or three citations in the instances where the author worded his hair observations in a way that was incompatible with my keyword, eg, curly ''headed’’, instead of curly ''hair’’.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
The following screenshots are citations that describe the hair types found on individuals interred in areas that are (mostly) directly below the 1st cataract:
The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908 -G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones
Crania Ægyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography -Samuel George Morton
The specific pages from the book will have to wait. Imageshack is acting up. will be back tonight.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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This one shows the same results, they even go as far as to claim that the X group(Later Nubians) became more "Negriod" despite the small population size. The Sennama South Study was the best preserved..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:you do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
^Brace makes the following point:
quote: An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 19341, but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions.
To make it apply to our situation, change the words: ''genes for nose and face'', to ''genes for straighter hair'', so the sentence reads:
but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for hair form but none for skin color or limb proportionsPosts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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This one shows the same results, they even go as far as to claim that the X group(Later Nubians) became more "Negriod" despite the small population size. The Sennama South Study was the best preserved..
Hey Jari, thnx. I'm familiar with that paper, I believe Myra has a link to it on her website.
Gotta go for now.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^ When you come back, I must ask you about this statement of yours:
quote:This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
Where did you read about these reports? As I recall, predynastic Egyptian hair has indices between 35 and 65, well within the range of curly hair.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^ The fact is Euronuts will have to explain how hair type is associated with race first off.
Once again you are at odd with forensic science, dermatologists and physical anthropology.
Different races have different hair follicles, hence different hair texture and growth.
Negroids have the shortest hair texture and slowest growth of hair at only 0.6 cm a month. Caucasoid hair can grow long with a hair growth of 1.2 cm a month, Mongoloids can grow the longest hair and fastest hair growth at 1. 4 cm a month.
Caucasoid hair texture is cymotrichous (wavy) while Negroid ulotrichous (wooly).
Negroids don't have straight-wavy hair. There is a lot of self-hate among blacks though that project this fantasy that they do. They hate their 'nappy hair' or afros. In fact black people call straight hair ''good hair'', while wooly hair 'bad'. Hence black woman go to the extremes to artificially straighten their hair.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Here are some sources on the racial differences in hair -
Not only do Caucasoid, Mongoloids and Negroids differ in hair texture but also the levels of amino acids in the hair.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: You do realize the Euronuts will use the wavy-haired Nubians as proof that Nubians were mulattoes rather than actually Black, don't you?
what you said and the charts presented seem to contradict the thread title:
"Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians?"
The charts are showing that some ancient Nubians also had straight or wavy hair.
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ When you come back, I must ask you about this statement of yours:
quote:This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
Where did you read about these reports? As I recall, predynastic Egyptian hair has indices between 35 and 65, well within the range of curly hair.
The info I'm referring to is implied in the very study you're mentioning right now, among other studies, some of which you've posted earlier.
Keep in mind that the Strouhal meassurements you're citing were obtained from what he saw as the ''racially intermediate'' componant of his total hair sample. In other words, the cross sections of the straight hairs were not a part of that specific examination, only a few of the wavy and curly ones.
Already forgot about posting this?
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: To be honest, though, I'm not so sure the Egyptians had curly hair on average. According to this study done on Egyptian hair, the average trichometer index ranged between 65.2 and 72.1, the latter rating being typical of straighter hair (though admittedly the 72.1 rating came from a small predynastic sample).
quote:Different races have different hair follicles, hence different hair texture and growth.
First you say Indians are Caucasians, then you say that wavy is a Caucasoid trait. Well, Indians don't have wavy hair. Chew on this:
The older terms “Mongoloid,” “Caucasoid,” and “Negroid” used to describe the major population groups of humankind are replaced in this atlas with the more modern terms East Asian, European, and African (meaning sub-Saharan African), respectively. These terms were adapted from Brace. 27 The populations of the Indian subcontinent are allied with the European populations in terms of anthropological kinship. 28 However, the scalp hair of the Indian subcontinent populations is more closely allied with the hair type of the East Asian populations, as is the scalp hair of the native populations of North, Central, and South America. Atlas of Human Hair -Robert R. Ogle, Jr.
As was explained by Jari, hair form has nothing to do with ''race''.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As was explained by Jari, hair has nothing to do with ''race''. [/QB]
Different races have different hair textures. This is anthropological fact. Negroids don't have straight hair, and Caucasoids don't have wooly.
You are clearly not a man of science. You and Jari are two cranks who continue to dismiss anthropology and forensic science etc for your own political bias.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: 27 The populations of the Indian subcontinent are allied with the European populations in terms of anthropological kinship. 28 However, the scalp hair of the Indian subcontinent populations is more closely allied with the hair type of the East Asian populations, as is the scalp hair of the native populations of North, Central, and South America.[/i] Atlas of Human Hair -Robert R. Ogle, Jr.
India has been inhabited by many different races (Veddoids, Caucasoids, Negrito). You can find a diverse range of hair texture. Palaeolithic Indians were Negrito and Veddoid, later there was a Dravidian (Caucasoid) migration during the Neolithic, and later during the Iron Age Aryans (Caucasoids) further mixed.
The Veddahs (Veddoids) don't have straight hair, theirs is wavy.
You seriously need to do some research.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:India has been inhabited by many different races (Veddoids, Caucasoids, Negrito). You can find a diverse range of hair texture. Palaeolithic Indians were Negrito and Veddoid, later there was a Dravidian (Caucasoid) migration during the Neolithic, and later during the Iron Age Aryans (Caucasoids) further mixed.
The Veddahs (Veddoids) don't have straight hair, theirs is wavy.
Pray tell, how is this relevant to what I just said to you? Are you actually dumb enough to think that Robert R. Ogle was talking about those minorities, when he wrote ''people of the Indian subcontinent''?
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
When those two ends of the spectrum (predynastic. vs Late dynastic) are compared, we get what Zakrezewski reported for the E-series: no continuation, and a staunch break in cranio-metric trends. This is all very logical and what one would expect, yet, for some reason, there was no similar change in their hair type and texture from whooly to wavy. Instead we get reports from several studies, about how the AE's, including the Southern ones, had cross section indices typical of coastal Northern Africans and Europeans since Predynastic times.
^^I see what you are saying but the mismatch, but as noted elsewhere, it does not necessarily follow that brown or black skin and tropical limb proportions HAVE TO ALSO be accompanied by kinky hair. There are tropically adapted peoples on the Indian sub-continent, who have wavy or looser hair. No one expects that dark brown Italians MUST also have kinky hair. But when it comes to Africa too often stereotypical models reign.
Sad to say, but it must be repeated multiple times: African peoples are diverse. Wavy hair is nothing special as part of the BUILT-IN, INDIGENOUS variation among tropical Africans, the most diverse population in the world. There could be Nubians with BOTH wavy and woolly hair, just as there are jet black Indian area peoples with BOTH woolly and wavy hair. Such a co-existence is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa. Narrow noses and broad noses for example, BOTH co-exist between tropical African peoples a few dozen kilometers apart.
I believe we have to be careful and not fall into the Euronut trap of using tightly curled hair as yet another "true negro" proxy element. Again, "kinky" hair is not an "African" thing. Such hair is found as far away as Papua New Guinea. Nor is it necessarily a "tropical" thing. Peoples in tropical zones elsewhere ALSO have straight or wavy hair. Let us not make African peoples out to be some sort of special case of stereotyped features where human variation is concerned.
Even Keita, an avid supporter of the idea that Ancient Northern Sudanese were ethnically the closest to AE's must've felt uncomfortable lookings as far as the distant Kanuri, Fulani and Somali people to explain away the hair type of Predynastic Egyptians. Furthermore, of the populations he mentioned, only Somali hair aproaches the hair characteristics that Strouhal obtained for his Badarian sample.
I always took the absense of Nubians among the populations Keita cited, as an indication that reasonable research into Ancient Nubian hair led him to subscribe to the idea that it really was as whooly/tightly curled as the Egyptians made it out to be in so many of their tomb depictions, so I never bother to research it myself.
I am not at all sure that Keita would feel uncomfortable, by the distant peoples used as a comparison. Why? He specifically fingers obsolete stereotypical thinking as a central problem.
Note Hrdy's 1978 Senna study above- it found that Nubians did not have one single type of woolly hair, but had variation. This in itself is nothing special. Africa is the home of variation. Again, tropical Africans are diverse. They CAN have a wide range of hair, just as they have a wide range of noses and skin colors.
As to Strouhal, he uses the same obsolete stereotyped models- circa 1971. He uses the "true negro" model applied to hair, but never the reverse. Why for example doenst he come up with a "true white" hair standard and only count pale people with very straight hair as "Caucasoid"? But he doesnt as it would undermine the dubious, stereotypical Eurocentric model of African diversity. This is the same Strouhal who claims that "negroes" allegedly, "did not enter" Egypt in any measurable numbers until the New Kingdom - long debunked and obsolete thinking that few modern scholars would support.
Here is what Keita says on hair:
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.."
-- (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
DIVERSITY RECAP The "African climate" incorporates diverse temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, rainfall, atmospheric particle count and other meteorological elements in a wide range of environments -- from deserts, to high altitude snowy zones, to jungle, to savannah, to mixed woodlands, to higher altitude cloud forest, and all that is WITHIN the TROPICAL zone of Africa.
And just as tropical African environments are diverse, so are tropical African peoples as credible scientists note time and time again. QUOTES:
Most phenotypic variation "Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." --- Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
Most genetic variation "Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." ---Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
Most skin color variation "Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits."
-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80.)
More tropically proportioned diversity ...... note brachial and cural indexes Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:^^As noted elsewhere, it does not necessarily follow that brown or black skin and tropical limb proportions HAVE TO ALSO be accompanied by straighter hair. There are tropically adapted peoples on the Indian sub-continent, who have wavy or looser hair. No one expects that dark brown Italians MUST also have kinky hair. But when it comes to Africa too often stereotypical models reign.
The point was made, clearly, from the perspective that the predynastic Egyptians were Nubian-like in all scientifically discernable manners, and since Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
This has nothing to do with being unfair to African variability, and being more acceptive of variation when it comes to other nations. Variability has limits, and it works logically, not spastically. Two sister populations don't just diverge on one single aspect, and remain the same in all others. I was operating from that perspective. I'm not going to sit there, and turn a blind eye to inconsistencies, under the guise of ''ow, every form of variation is because of indigenous variation''.
As it turns out, I was right about finding something incongruent about the picture of Nubians and Egyptians being alike in all manners aside from hair form. The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
quote:I am not at all sure that Keita would feel uncomfortable, by the distant peoples used as a comparison. Why? He specifically fingers obsolete stereotypical thinking as a central problem
Well, because if he wasn't aware of the fact that (some) Nubians had the same hair forms, he could've been aware of the fact that he could be inadvertently reinforcing the idea that there IS something out of the ordinary about Ancient Egyptian hair, if other populations are invoked instead of their closest relatives, Nubians, to explain predynastic Egypian hair forms.
I have reason to believe that Keita in fact does NOT know about research of the kind presented in this thread, one of which, is him saying that only a certain percentage of Badarian hair is African (I believe it was 80%), rather than accepting ALL of it as African, as he clearly would have done, if he was aware of the fact that the people directly below the 1st cataract had identical hair.
This is not a shot at him either, I'm just stating that he likely felt uncomfortable being forced to cite examples of distant populatons as comparative examples, rather than the more appropriate Nubians.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: There are tropically adapted peoples on the Indian sub-continent, who have wavy or looser hair.
Indeed there is, but they are Australoid, not Negroid. No one has ever denied that Australoids are wavy-haired.
quote:But when it comes to Africa too often stereotypical models reign.
Sterotypical models exist for all races, since all races have different phenotypic traits.
quote:African peoples are diverse.
Africa has been inhabited, and still is - by many different races. So please clarify by what race you mean by 'african people'.
quote:Wavy hair is nothing special as part of the BUILT-IN, INDIGENOUS variation among tropical Africans, the most diverse population in the world.
Wavy hair in Africa is a product of Caucasoid genes. East Africans are partial Caucasoid hence some have straighter hair.
quote:There could be Nubians with BOTH wavy and woolly hair, just as there are jet black Indian area peoples with BOTH woolly and wavy hair.
There was a Caucasoid strain in Nubians hence some were wavy haired.
quote:Such a co-existence is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa. Narrow noses and broad noses for example, BOTH co-exist between tropical African peoples a few dozen kilometers apart.
The africans with narrower noses have Caucasoid genes - same for straighter hair.
quote:Peoples in tropical zones elsewhere ALSO have straight or wavy hair.
Because they are not Negroid.
quote: *picture*
The woman you posted has fake hair. A mere google search shows her afro hair roots and that her hair is completely artificial.
Negroids self-hate their natural hair texture. You rarely ever see a black woman with their natural afro hair.
This sort of self-hate exists in no other race.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
I am not so sure. I understand what you say about some artworks, but then again, many Egyptians depicted in artworks are not depicted with their natural hair, but in wigs. Hence some might say, we don't have an apples to apples, or in this case, a hair for hair comparison- natural to natural of Egyptians versus Nubians. COmplicating the picture is the fact that the Nubians themselves also wore wigs, and indeed the "Nubian wig" worn by hard-fighting Nubian mercenaries became a fashion statement for some Egyptians per Fletcher above.
We have studies like that of Strouhal, but again, Strouhal was using a rigid racial formula, lumping everything that did not meet an extreme stereotype as "Caucasoid" or "Mixed." Other hair studies like that of Strohual's Czech colleagues use mostly later period dynastic samples, cutting out a huge 2000 year old swath of prior history, and then still use the stereotypical formula -- all not "true negro" goes into the "mixed" or "Caucasoid" column. This stereotypical formula is never applied to whites in reverse.
ALso given the clear "Sudanic" influences in Southern Egypt from the very beginning, people with kinky hair are part and parcel of native Egyptian diversity, just like people with jet black skin have ALWAYS been part of NATIVE Egypt and are not foreign. In other words, just as Nubians themselves varied, so did Egyptians vary, natively, between a range of kinky to straight hair.
Furthermore, wavy hair or straighter, looser hair, as has been noted elsewhere, even if it did depend on gene flow, does not necessarily mean gene flow from OUTSIDE Africa. Gene flow for example from the Horn or East Africa (as shown in the 2004 Gurna study) or ancient Sahara could well have added variation to the hair mix. But even in this case, the inflowing mix is from WITHIN indigenous tropical Africa, not outside from EUropeans or "Middle Easterners." Too often some folks (I do not mean you of course) seem to think that "gene flow" means outside Africa. Not necessarily.
Could it not then be thus said that there is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary at all about Egyptian hair- it is just another routine African pattern of variation? How do you see the possibility of BOTH Nubian and Egyptian hair being variable as part of an indigenous range?
The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
^^I agree and raise the possibility for the flip side also- that the portrayal of Egyptian hair may not be fully accurate since the Egyptians used wigs heavily, often with hair purchased or obtained from a wide variety of sources. Egyptians portrayed themselves as they wanted to portray themselves- with wigs- not their natural "dos"..
Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The point was made, clearly, from the perspective that the predynastic Egyptians were Nubian-like in all scientifically discernable manners, and since Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
Caucasoids don't claim to have afros/wooly hair, but Negroids are obsessed with claiming they have straight or wavy hair (when they don't).
It stems down to the fact as Confirming Truth (a black poster on this forum) admits - Negroid racial traits are ugly. Blacks don't want their natural hair (wooly or afro) texture. They crave straighter hair whites have and so troll internet forums claiming they have diverse hair textures.
So where are these straight haired negroids?
When ever i ask for a photo, people fail to show.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Casserites, make it quick, will ya? Stop spastically butting into conversations that don't involve you, and start adressing those that do:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:India has been inhabited by many different races (Veddoids, Caucasoids, Negrito). You can find a diverse range of hair texture. Palaeolithic Indians were Negrito and Veddoid, later there was a Dravidian (Caucasoid) migration during the Neolithic, and later during the Iron Age Aryans (Caucasoids) further mixed.
The Veddahs (Veddoids) don't have straight hair, theirs is wavy.
Pray tell, how is this relevant to what I just said to you? Are you actually dumb enough to think that Robert R. Ogle was talking about those minorities, when he wrote ''people of the Indian subcontinent''?
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Nubians are commonly depicted as anything BUT straight/wavy haired, by both ancient Ethnographers, and Egyptian artwork, there is an obvious incongruence there.
I am not so sure. I understand what you say about some artworks, but then again, many Egyptians depicted in artworks are not depicted with their natural hair, but in wigs. Hence some might say, we don't have an apples to apples, or in this case, a hair for hair comparison- natural to natural of Egyptians versus Nubians. COmplicating the picture is the fact that the Nubians themselves also wore wigs, and indeed the "Nubian wig" worn by hard-fighting Nubian mercenaries became a fashion statement for some Egyptians per Fletcher above.
We have studies like that of Strouhal, but again, Strouhal was using a rigid racial formula, lumping everything that did not meet an extreme stereotype as "Caucasoid" or "Mixed." Other hair studies like that of Strohual's Czech colleagues use mostly later period dynastic samples, cutting out a huge 2000 year old swath of prior history, and then still use the stereotypical formula -- all not "true negro" goes into the "mixed" or "Caucasoid" column. This stereotypical formula is never applied to whites in reverse.
ALso given the clear "Sudanic" influences in Southern Egypt from the very beginning, people with kinky hair are part and parcel of native Egyptian diversity, just like people with jet black skin have ALWAYS been part of NATIVE Egypt and are not foreign. In other words, just as Nubians themselves varied, so did Egyptians vary, natively, between a range of kinky to straight hair.
Furthermore, wavy hair or straighter, looser hair, as has been noted elsewhere, even if it did depend on gene flow, does not necessarily mean gene flow from OUTSIDE Africa. Gene flow for example from the Horn or East Africa (as shown in the 2004 Gurna study) or ancient Sahara could well have added variation to the hair mix. But even in this case, the inflowing mix is from WITHIN indigenous tropical Africa, not outside from EUropeans or "Middle Easterners." Too often some folks (I do not mean you of course) seem to think that "gene flow" means outside Africa. Not necessarily.
Could it not then be thus said that there is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary at all about Egyptian hair- it is just another routine African pattern of variation? How do you see the possibility of BOTH Nubian and Egyptian hair being variable as part of an indigenous range?
The thing that was inconsistent was the portrayal of the hair forms of Northern Sudanese groups, as the data in the OP's shows.
^^I agree and raise the possibility for the flip side also- that the portrayal of Egyptian hair may not be fully accurate since the Egyptians used wigs heavily, often with hair purchased or obtained from a wide variety of sources. Egyptians portrayed themselves as they wanted to portray themselves- with wigs- not their natural "dos"..
Ok
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova and Swenet (the two self-hating blacks) here is my question to you:
Is your own hair texture like this:
What's funny is that every afronut on this forum claiming ''blacks are physicall diverse with straight hair'' just turns out to be precisely the stereotypical negro (wooly haired, prognathic, wide nose etc) they are so desperate out of self-hate to deny.
Here is Clyde Winters -
Clyde, like a typical afronut likes to claim blacks have phenotypic diversity such as thin noses and straight hair.
But look at himself. LOL.
Get out of cuckooland and stop the self-hate. Why are you obsessed with claiming Caucasoid features are black?
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
^^I don't know what makes you so dumb but it really works.
bogus claims exposed
Originally posted by cassitrides:
quote: The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).
This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa. So the 'true' Black African today is a recent mutation. Caucasoids and Mongoloids predate them. [Wink] Negroids only migrated into other parts of Africa during the Bantu expansion or slightly earlier. Prior to them, Caucasoids inhabited North Africa and Bushmen (Capoids) to the south who were displaced by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 12,000 BC.
^^A bogus reference. Why should anyone take your word for it given past bogus references? Quote where Cavalli-Sforza says these so-called "negroids" "mutated" from Pygmies. The burden of proof is on you, since you made the claim.
While you scurry to cover your tracks with yet more bogus claims, Cavali Sforza, in his well known The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1994 Cavalli-Sforza summarizes his 1986 work on Pygmies and specifically debunks the "Pygmy as ancestor" theory held by other older writings. QUOTE:
"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
SO much for your lying claims of "mutations" from "Pygymy" ancestors. In short, you lied about Cavalli-Sforza, creating a falsified claim and a bogus "supporting" reference to a claim that is nowhere supported in his work. You are once again exposed as yet another racist, who relies on bogus "evidence" to advance, dubious and debunked claims. You are not fooling anyone.
------------------------
YOu then tried to cover up your lie with even more bogus nformation and STILL fail
You "modified" your Cavalli Sforza claim by including page numbers, and then changing some wording to "adaptive radiation" hoping to divert attention from your exposure.. lmao..
However pages 361-362 of Cavalli Sforza's 1986 book says absolutely nothing about any Negroes "mutating" from pygmies, nor any "adaptive radiation." It merely discusses Pygmy history and geography. You picked out a page at random, not knowing it can be verified via Google Books. You were asked to provide a direct quote but are still running. Now why is that?
""It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
[/QB][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------
And Your pathetic "modification" STILL turned out to be bogus. You then said:
[b]"True" Black Africans appear as a recent adaptive radiation apparently branching off from an ancestral Pygmy population — a line of ancestry also indicated by osteological data (Coon 1962:651-656; Watson et al. 1996).
^^But in fact, Watson 1996 has nothing to do with osteological data and does not even mention it. It has to do with mtDNA.
Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Before we can determine whether or not wholly indigenous Africans can have less than tightly curled hair, we first need to figure out exactly why we have variation in human hair texture to begin with. Some might argue that straighter hair in modern humans is a derived trait characteristic of cold-adapted populations, but that doesn't explain why Australian aborigines, who are otherwise perfectly tropically adapted, have wavy rather than woolly hair (especially since they are sandwiched between woolly-haired populations in New Guinea and Tasmania). How can we determine whether less woolly hair in Africans is a product of admixture with cold-adapted people when we don't even know why most Africans have woolly hair in the first place?
BTW, hair curvature is only one variable of hair morphology; it could very well be that other aspects of Egypto-Nubian hair morphology are more in line with other Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Before we can determine whether or not wholly indigenous Africans can have less than tightly curled hair, we first need to figure out exactly why we have variation in human hair texture to begin with. Some might argue that straighter hair in modern humans is a derived trait characteristic of cold-adapted populations, but that doesn't explain why Australian aborigines, who are otherwise perfectly tropically adapted, have wavy rather than woolly hair (especially since they are sandwiched between woolly-haired populations in New Guinea and Tasmania). How can we determine whether less woolly hair in Africans is a product of admixture with cold-adapted people when we don't even know why most Africans have woolly hair in the first place?
BTW, hair curvature is only one variable of hair morphology; it could very well be that other aspects of Egypto-Nubian hair morphology are more in line with other Africans.
. Also look at the crania of Austrailians, the brow ridge is prominent, closer to Europeans than Africans. Another mystery is if chimps have straight hair and are 94-98% genetically similar to humans with a common ancestor why don't humans have straight hair? Maybe they did originally that's what xxyman thinks.
Posts: 43099 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
Your rants on Indian hair don't even have anything to do with topic of Nubian hair compared to Egyptians!
Begone you idiot! Your very presence here brings down the IQ of this very intelligent thread!...
Posts: 26496 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:: ^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
this statement is hypocritical it amounts to this:
"race doesn't exist, what idiot would think Africans and Indians were of the same race??? "
posted
Now, back to ignoring the castrated fool...
Welcome back Swenet! I was about to say what Truthcentric and Zarahan have already pointed out that Strouhal found the average indices of predynastic Egyptian hair to be well within the average range of so-called "negroes". As for the wavy texture of the hair, I find it funny that you like Keita point to more distant African groups having such hair like Somalis and other Horn Africans and even Kanuri and Fulani. The Kanuri are found primarily in Chad, while the Fulani are found throughout the Sahel of West Africa. We know the Euronuts are obsessed with the false notion that Horn Africans and Fulani are "caucasian" admixed but what about the Kanuri?? I don't think most Euronuts have even heard of them let alone call them cockasian mixed. Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture. And what of the Bilma of Uganda whom Ausar first mentioned. Uganda is all the way in central Africa and these people look stereotypically Bantu except their wavy hair texture! There is obviously no denying the inherent diversity of Africa.
While people point to more distant populations what about closer ones nearby such as the Nilo-Saharan speaking Teda people of southeast Libya, or the Siwa Berbers who despite their black appearance still have long wavy hair? In fact the earliest known Libyans, the Tehenu, were depicted by the Egyptians as having long wavy hair despite their African features and dark complexions no different from Egyptians.
Tehenu prisoner
In fact, judging by the incredibly high frequencies in that region I'd say the Sahara seems to be the very source of the long wavy texture among Egyptians and perhaps Nubians. I've long noticed that so many peoples in and around the Sahara (not just Berber speakers) despite their obvious black appearance have long flowing hair. Of course it's mostly the females who keep their hair long while males usually keep theirs short, but I've seen pictures of some men who grow their hair long and flowing as well. I go on further to suggest this also explains the presence of blacks with long hair in the Mediterranean basin as depicted in Minoan frescoes and in Egyptian paintings of Keftiu and maybe even some Sea Peoples, but that's another topic altogether! Again, my point goes back to what Zarahan has stated-- we should stop thinking that such hair forms like facial features are due to a non-African or Eurasian influence and acknowledge that such is very much part of indigenous African diversity. Getting back to Nubians, I notice that wavy or long hair is also not an uncommon trait among them. How prevalent it was in ancient times is another matter, but I do believe if a change in hair form occurred in Nubian populations it could have to do with immigrations of people from the Sahara, perhaps peoples like the Blemyes, Noba, and others.
Sudanese with straighter hair:
Posts: 26496 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:: ^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
this statement is hypocritical it amounts to this:
"race doesn't exist, what idiot would think Africans and Indians were of the same race??? "
Djehuti Fail #6
First of all, I put race in quotes to show that it is a loose and invalid term. Second, my question asked who thought that way besides Clyde since Clyde obviously believes in 'race' and so does the castrated. I don't, so how is that hypocritical??! You obviously have poor reading comprehension.
Lyinass B|TCH Fail #6000
BTW, YOU are also a troll not much better than castrated with your passive-aggressive tactics, so YOU need to get the hell out of this thread as well! Posts: 26496 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Before we can determine whether or not wholly indigenous Africans can have less than tightly curled hair, we first need to figure out exactly why we have variation in human hair texture to begin with. Some might argue that straighter hair in modern humans is a derived trait characteristic of cold-adapted populations, but that doesn't explain why Australian aborigines, who are otherwise perfectly tropically adapted, have wavy rather than woolly hair (especially since they are sandwiched between woolly-haired populations in New Guinea and Tasmania). How can we determine whether less woolly hair in Africans is a product of admixture with cold-adapted people when we don't even know why most Africans have woolly hair in the first place?
BTW, hair curvature is only one variable of hair morphology; it could very well be that other aspects of Egypto-Nubian hair morphology are more in line with other Africans.
You must not forget that looser or relatively straighter hair does not mean thin or not wooly. Even African hair that is wavy or loose is still thick and 'wooly' to the touch compared to the smoother silky hair of Eurasians. This fact along with other tropical features also found among these populations and NO cold adapted traits at all suggest that such hair form are indeed indigenous and has nothing to do with influence from cold adapted populations.
Posts: 26496 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Kanuri have Toubou admixture, hence their occasional Caucasoid traits (Ferris, 1968).
Toubou show strong Caucasoid morphology, since they have mixed with Berbers for a long time.
Taubou Man (clearly visible Berber admixture) -
Afrocentrics are obsessed with Caucasoid traits yet are delusional and claim them as their own.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Now, back to ignoring the castrated fool...
Welcome back Swenet! I was about to say what Truthcentric and Zarahan have already pointed out that Strouhal found the average indices of predynastic Egyptian hair to be well within the average range of so-called "negroes". As for the wavy texture of the hair, I find it funny that you like Keita point to more distant African groups having such hair like Somalis and other Horn Africans and even Kanuri and Fulani. The Kanuri are found primarily in Chad, while the Fulani are found throughout the Sahel of West Africa. We know the Euronuts are obsessed with the false notion that Horn Africans and Fulani are "caucasian" admixed but what about the Kanuri?? I don't think most Euronuts have even heard of them let alone call them cockasian mixed. Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture. And what of the Bilma of Uganda whom Ausar first mentioned. Uganda is all the way in central Africa and these people look stereotypically Bantu except their wavy hair texture! There is obviously no denying the inherent diversity of Africa.
While people point to more distant populations what about closer ones nearby such as the Nilo-Saharan speaking Teda people of southeast Libya, or the Siwa Berbers who despite their black appearance still have long wavy hair? In fact the earliest known Libyans, the Tehenu, were depicted by the Egyptians as having long wavy hair despite their African features and dark complexions no different from Egyptians.
Tehenu prisoner
In fact, judging by the incredibly high frequencies in that region I'd say the Sahara seems to be the very source of the long wavy texture among Egyptians and perhaps Nubians. I've long noticed that so many peoples in and around the Sahara (not just Berber speakers) despite their obvious black appearance have long flowing hair. Of course it's mostly the females who keep their hair long while males usually keep theirs short, but I've seen pictures of some men who grow their hair long and flowing as well. I go on further to suggest this also explains the presence of blacks with long hair in the Mediterranean basin as depicted in Minoan frescoes and in Egyptian paintings of Keftiu and maybe even some Sea Peoples, but that's another topic altogether! Again, my point goes back to what Zarahan has stated-- we should stop thinking that such hair forms like facial features are due to a non-African or Eurasian influence and acknowledge that such is very much part of indigenous African diversity. Getting back to Nubians, I notice that wavy or long hair is also not an uncommon trait among them. How prevalent it was in ancient times is another matter, but I do believe if a change in hair form occurred in Nubian populations it could have to do with immigrations of people from the Sahara, perhaps peoples like the Blemyes, Noba, and others.
Sudanese with straighter hair:
It may be more than a coincidence that the Sahara has a similar climate to much of Australia where the native inhabitants also have wavy hair despite being tropically adapted. Maybe living in an arid environment would for some reason select for less tightly curled hair?
That said, while I'm inclined to agree with you that wavy hair is indigenous to the Sahara, Euronuts will claim that the Saharan region would be an admixture zone between "true" black people and "Caucasoids" living on the Mediterranean coastline and therefore that the wavy-haired black peoples you named are not wholly African. Alternatively, some people might agree that the wavy-haired Saharans ARE more or less pure Africans but still maintain that they should be considered distinct from sub-Saharan peoples.
You wouldn't happen to have photos showing the Saharan groups you named, would you?
Posts: 7220 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
the chart doesn't only describe wavy hair it also distinguishes wavy hair from straight hair.
Posts: 43099 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:: ^ And who in here besides Clyde Winters thinks Indians and Africans are the same 'race'?? In fact the rest of us don't even ascribe to 'race' as it doesn't really exist anyway!!
this statement is hypocritical it amounts to this:
"race doesn't exist, what idiot would think Africans and Indians were of the same race??? "
Djehuti Fail #6
First of all, I put race in quotes to show that it is a loose and invalid term. Second, my question asked who thought that way besides Clyde since Clyde obviously believes in 'race' and so does the castrated. I don't, so how is that hypocritical??! You obviously have poor reading comprehension.
Lyinass B|TCH Fail #6000
BTW, YOU are also a troll not much better than castrated with your passive-aggressive tactics, so YOU need to get the hell out of this thread as well!
You put race in quotes and then proceeded to convey the idea that Africans and Indians couldn't possibly be of the same race, that only Clyde could think such a thing. That makes no sense, you messed up.
Posts: 43099 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Am J Phys Anthropol. 1978 Aug;49(2):277-82. Analysis of hair samples of mummies from Semma South (Sudanese Nubia).
Abstract Hair samples from 76 burials at Semna South (Sudanese Nubia) were examined using a variety of techniques. Electrophoresis and fluorescence microscopy indicated some oxidation of the cuticule and keratin protein had taken place. However, the cuticular structure and the lack of fluorescence of the cortex indicate that the low humidity and non-alkaline conditions preserved the physical and chemical properties of the hair well. Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin, showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than is currently associated with the Nubian area. Hair form analysis showed medium diameter and scale count; the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples. There was a high ratio of maximum to minimum curvature (a measure of irregularity), approached only by Melanesian samples. Meroitic and X-group burial types were not statistically significantly different (largely due to sample sizes), but the X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Principal components analysis showed the Semna sample to be significantly different from seven populations examined earlier.
the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples.
This shows that if the Egyptians were form the South, that the South may have had people who were intermediate between Eurasian and African.
This is a possibility with evidence. The study in the OT supports this further. It list not only curly hair (of an intermediate type) and labels some samples curly as here but also lists wavy and straight, all separate categories.
Posts: 43099 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples.
This shows that if the Egyptians were form the South, that the South may have had people who were intermediate between Eurasian and African.
Dubious. "Intermediate" does not mean "Racially" mixed. It simply means that the hair pattern of the native peoples varied between 2 defined points. Your attempt to project some sort of "race" categorization based on hair fails dismally. Tropical Africans are the most diverse people in the world. And "gene flow" does not necessarily mean anything from outside Africa. The Horn, the Sudan, the Sahara, etc are all sources of documented "gene flow" from WITHIN Africa.
These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
---------------------------------------------
The "African climate" incorporates diverse temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, rainfall, atmospheric particle count and other meteorological elements in a wide range of environments -- from deserts, to high altitude snowy zones, to jungle, to savannah, to mixed woodlands, to higher altitude cloud forest, and all that is WITHIN the TROPICAL zone of Africa.
And just as tropical African environments are diverse, so are tropical African peoples as credible scientists note time and time again. QUOTES:
Most phenotypic variation "Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." --- Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636)
Most genetic variation "Africa contains tremendous cultural, linguistic and genetic diversity, and has more than 2,000 distinct ethnic groups and languages.. Studies using mitochondrial (mt)DNA and nuclear DNA markers consistently indicate that Africa is the most genetically diverse region of the world." ---Tishkoff SA, Williams SM., Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease. Nature Reviews Genetics. 2002 Aug (8):611-21.)
Most skin color variation "Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits."
-- Relethford JH.(2000). Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80.)
a tropical phenotype needing diverse study...
Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
^ Zarahan, just who is that chick you keep posting?? You keep using her as an example of tropical adaptation so is she from Africa or indigenous to some other tropical area??
quote:Originally posted by castrated: Kanuri have Toubou admixture, hence their occasional Caucasoid traits (Ferris, 1968).
Toubou show strong Caucasoid morphology, since they have mixed with Berbers for a long time.
Taubou Man (clearly visible Berber admixture) -
Afrocentrics are obsessed with Caucasoid traits yet are delusional and claim them as their own.
The only one obsessed with cacasoid traits are idiots like YOU, yet you are too stupid and delusional to realize that such an entity as "cacasoid" does not really exist! Do you know how stupid your statement sounds? You say the only reason for the Kanuri's traits are due to admixture from the Tubu yet the only reason for the Tubu's traits are admixture from another people! LOL As for the Berbers, these too are predominantly black in appearance yet another troll, Malcontent claims it is because of admixture from 'negro slaves'! Also if such traits are "cacasoid" then as others have explained in this thread, where are all the other cacasoid traits like light skin color and cold adapted limb proportions??
You like the malcontent are as deranged as you are delusional.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinassfool: You put race in quotes and then proceeded to convey the idea that Africans and Indians couldn't possibly be of the same race, that only Clyde could think such a thing. That makes no sense, you messed up.
By traditional definitions of "race", one means same population or peoples of common genetic descent. We know that Indians as Eurasians are very much diverged from Africans as much as other Asians which proves the point.
To someone with basic intelligence it makes perfect sense. So no I didn't mess up unlike YOUR dumbass who messed up in dozens of threads! LOL Again, don't try to nitpick my statements in a pathetic attempt to point our any mistakes of mine your twisted mind perceives but rather worry about your own blatantly obvious mistakes which you make over and over again despite our corrections, worm!
Posts: 26496 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Now, back to ignoring the castrated fool...
Welcome back Swenet! I was about to say what Truthcentric and Zarahan have already pointed out that Strouhal found the average indices of predynastic Egyptian hair to be well within the average range of so-called "negroes". As for the wavy texture of the hair, I find it funny that you like Keita point to more distant African groups having such hair like Somalis and other Horn Africans and even Kanuri and Fulani. The Kanuri are found primarily in Chad, while the Fulani are found throughout the Sahel of West Africa. We know the Euronuts are obsessed with the false notion that Horn Africans and Fulani are "caucasian" admixed but what about the Kanuri?? I don't think most Euronuts have even heard of them let alone call them cockasian mixed. Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture. And what of the Bilma of Uganda whom Ausar first mentioned. Uganda is all the way in central Africa and these people look stereotypically Bantu except their wavy hair texture! There is obviously no denying the inherent diversity of Africa.
While people point to more distant populations what about closer ones nearby such as the Nilo-Saharan speaking Teda people of southeast Libya, or the Siwa Berbers who despite their black appearance still have long wavy hair? In fact the earliest known Libyans, the Tehenu, were depicted by the Egyptians as having long wavy hair despite their African features and dark complexions no different from Egyptians.
Tehenu prisoner
In fact, judging by the incredibly high frequencies in that region I'd say the Sahara seems to be the very source of the long wavy texture among Egyptians and perhaps Nubians. I've long noticed that so many peoples in and around the Sahara (not just Berber speakers) despite their obvious black appearance have long flowing hair. Of course it's mostly the females who keep their hair long while males usually keep theirs short, but I've seen pictures of some men who grow their hair long and flowing as well. I go on further to suggest this also explains the presence of blacks with long hair in the Mediterranean basin as depicted in Minoan frescoes and in Egyptian paintings of Keftiu and maybe even some Sea Peoples, but that's another topic altogether! Again, my point goes back to what Zarahan has stated-- we should stop thinking that such hair forms like facial features are due to a non-African or Eurasian influence and acknowledge that such is very much part of indigenous African diversity. Getting back to Nubians, I notice that wavy or long hair is also not an uncommon trait among them. How prevalent it was in ancient times is another matter, but I do believe if a change in hair form occurred in Nubian populations it could have to do with immigrations of people from the Sahara, perhaps peoples like the Blemyes, Noba, and others.
Sudanese with straighter hair:
Whatup Djehuty, thanks. As far as I know, Strouhal did not give a mean for the cross sections he obtained, so there is no way of telling whether it falls in the range of stereotyped African hair. Strouhal doesn't mention how many of the 7 hairs were curly, and how many were wavy, but, but judging by the fact that stereotyped African populations have transverse indices between 10-60%, it seems reasonable that from Strouhals microsopically analysed hairs (again, 7 strands), the curly hairs account for most of the indices that are in his range of 35-65%, and that the wavy hairs (assuming there were more wavy strands than one) account for the ones that scored around 65%.
If we then look at how large the curly componant is, of the total set of hairs, it only amounts to 6/49=12%. Using this line of thinking, then, it seems that 88% of Strouhals Badarian hair has a cross section index of 65% and higher, and falls outside of the range reported for most tropical Africans, but still within the limits of Tropical Africans like Somali's and, as this thread demonstrates, that of contemporary Northern Sudanese.
quote:Yet the Kanuri look no different from other peoples in Chad despite their hair texture.
Exactly what I'm saying. I have trouble understanding why Truthcentric is impressed by the false notion that this information can be used to suggest that the Nubians with straight and wavy hair were mulattoes, or that proponants that do, are worth worrying about. North Africans already occupy a mulatto position, cranio-facially. If those Nubians were mulattoes, we'd expect them to plot among the E-Series and Maghrebian series, and they obviously don't.
To Truth centric: Proto berbers arise from the same source as the Nubians discussed here, why did their transformation to mulattoes bring about a change in their cranio-facial structure and skin color, but not in straight haired Ancient Northern Sudanese?
Their hairs may be wavy and straight for the most part, but their facial complex evinces local evolution. I don't see how someone can sloppily throw that fact out of the window, or act like it isn't there, simply because of this new find. Remember Keita's seriation of population along the x axis of his cranial plot? He said all cranial series, from the Romano-british to the Gabonese series (and everything in between), are seriated in a manner that agrees roughly with their geographical lattitude. This obviously means that Naqada and Kerma, who were a part of that study, look cranially like what is predicted from their lattitute, and hence, their physique cannot be explained by admixture:
quote:A study of Howells’ (1973) results by Guglielmino- Matessi et al. (1979) demonstrates significant climatic (mainly temperature) correlations with the variables strongly associated with the first discriminant function. These variables overlap with the important ones observed here. Inspection of Howells’ plot of discriminant Function I versus I1 reveals a seriation of groups along I that corresponds to that obtained here: geographical groups from cold to tropical areas, with the second function, as in this study, separating the groups within these broad regions. The “E” series locates in an intermediate position to tropical African and European series.
An Analysis of Crania From Tell-Duweir Using Multiple Discriminant Functions -S.O.Y. KEITA
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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the source of this picture is Mike111, "real"history.com
in the section entitled "The True Negro"
the original source is not given. Is the man purely of African descent, we don't know Is his hair in it's natural state? We don't know Is there a tribe of people who look like him and have this hair? No
this one photo is not solid evidence. Also Sudan is about 40% Arab, 2% other foreigners
posted
^"Arab" is not a race, its a language and W.Asia is not 'pure' either.
LMAO @ lioness trying to sell her "intermediate" productions.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: the curling variables were intermediate between European and African samples.
This shows that if the Egyptians were form the South, that the South may have had people who were intermediate between Eurasian and African.
Dubious. "Intermediate" does not mean "Racially" mixed. It simply means that the hair pattern of the native peoples varied between 2 defined points. Your attempt to project some sort of "race" categorization based on hair fails dismally. Tropical Africans are the most diverse people in the world. And "gene flow" does not necessarily mean anything from outside Africa. The Horn, the Sudan, the Sahara, etc are all sources of documented "gene flow" from WITHIN Africa.
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